FF8 - the love story is simply lame....SPOILER
KC
The following is the love story plot in a nutshell.
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
Ok, Squall's rival is Seifer. They had a 'high school parking lot
fight' and they left a scar on each other's face.
Riona loved Seifer. But the story never described that part.
Squall made it to SeeD and Seifer didn't.
Then Squall met Riona. They danced. Riona ditched Squall when she
saw her friends (Seifer? In theory he should be VERY upset and
drinking in the bar because he didn't made it to SeeD).
A week later? Squall met Riona again, helped her in a mission. Riona
didn't seem to like Squall very much.
Seifer kidnapped the President because of Riona. Riona thought that
Seifer was executed and got very depressed (and we started to realize
that she was in love with Seifer).
Squall and Riona tried to kill Edea. They figured that Seifer was
helping Edea.
Squall saved Riona (from lizards?) and mumbled 'stay close to me' and
all of the sudden Riona turned to Squall (duh! that's easy .. I'll try
in real life)
Squall knocked out Seifer (who turned out to be a wimp compare to
Squall). Riona, Irvine and Squall fought Edea while Seifer was lying
on the floor. Riona didn't say a thing about a guy that she loved
before.
2nd disc.
Escaped the prison ... back to Garden ... Riona started to go after
Squall. Seifer was totally out of the picture.
G-Garden fight, Seifer mumbled about the relationship with Riona and
she told him to shut up.
Riona had a COMA.
3rd disc
Our hero regretted and figured that he missed Riona.
Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a doctor
would be more appropriate).
Space flight ....
...
Seifer again, he was still a wimp. This time, Riona showed a little
bit of compassion.
Seifer 'glued' Riona with Adel.
Our hero saved his princess again.
Seifer simply disappeared from the plot.
4th Disc
They killed 'big cardboard witch out of nowhere' and lost in time and
space. They found each other and kissed.
Seifer was last seen fishing in Balamb.
------
Not that I like Seifer, but the part that he was portrait as Squall's
rival was so unconvincing. He was weak, and only fought with the main
character 2.5 times (part of that in the opening) and none of the
fight was impressive or dramatic. His relationship with Riona was
summed up in a few sentences and didn't create any impact to Riona and
Squall's relationship.
Riona, without much conflict or struggle, turned to our main char very
early in the game. This is no secret to all of us and made the story
out right boring. Her char development is simply flat and
straightforward.
Squall's character development is relatively more complete. But he is
too typical as the quiet cool main character in a lot of games. He
started to fall in love when Riona was in a coma ? (yawn)
If I were writing the story, I'll have Quistis to play a bigger role
in between Squall and Riona. The conflict between Seifer and Squall
should at least partially involve Riona. The end game boss should be
Seifer instead of a cardboard Witch out of nowhere.
The whole plot is just lack of climax and too patchy.
HugeblackHole
p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
Ian Goh
Squall fall in love with Rinoa all of a sudden when shes in coma.
Thats lame
FLAMENET MASTER
wrote:
>Ok, Squall's rival is Seifer. They had a 'high school parking lot
>fight' and they left a scar on each other's face.
>
>Riona loved Seifer. But the story never described that part.
>
>Squall made it to SeeD and Seifer didn't.
>
>Then Squall met Riona. They danced. Riona ditched Squall when she
>saw her friends (Seifer? In theory he should be VERY upset and
>drinking in the bar because he didn't made it to SeeD).
She was meeting with Cid to discuss the contract with the Forest
Owls.. She said as much later on the train..
>
>A week later? Squall met Riona again, helped her in a mission. Riona
>didn't seem to like Squall very much.
>
>Seifer kidnapped the President because of Riona. Riona thought that
>Seifer was executed and got very depressed (and we started to realize
>that she was in love with Seifer).
She "thought" it was love.. Quistis "thought" she was in love too, but
turned out not to be..
>
>Squall and Riona tried to kill Edea. They figured that Seifer was
>helping Edea.
>
At that point, Seifer was still "executed"...
>Squall saved Riona (from lizards?) and mumbled 'stay close to me' and
>all of the sudden Riona turned to Squall (duh! that's easy .. I'll try
>in real life)
Rinoa was dogmeat. The lizards were just about to eat her up, then
Squall showed up and sliced em to ribbons. Rinoa was grateful for him
saving her life. She was also impressed with his bravery, strength,
and modesty. (Seifer would be more the bragging type)
>
>Squall knocked out Seifer (who turned out to be a wimp compare to
>Squall). Riona, Irvine and Squall fought Edea while Seifer was lying
>on the floor. Riona didn't say a thing about a guy that she loved
>before.
She was too busy with Edea.. By the time the fight was over, she was
off to prison with the others..
>
>2nd disc.
>
>Escaped the prison ... back to Garden ... Riona started to go after
>Squall. Seifer was totally out of the picture.
>
>G-Garden fight, Seifer mumbled about the relationship with Riona and
>she told him to shut up.
It was over. Seifer has now made a total ass of himself, and Rinoa is
ashamed she ever had anything to do with a dickweed like him. She is
currently busting a mac on Squall, and dosn't want his big mouth
fouling things up..
>
>Riona had a COMA.
>
>3rd disc
>
>Our hero regretted and figured that he missed Riona.
>
When he realized he was being cold towards his comrades, he also
realized he was being cold towards Rinoa. he wanted to apoligize, but
she was in a coma..
>Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a doctor
>would be more appropriate).
The doctor at garden said she "couldn't do anything".. Squall heard
from Ellone (in the flashback) that she was trying to "change the
past". He wanted to do the same..
>
>Space flight ....
>
>...
>
>Seifer again, he was still a wimp. This time, Riona showed a little
>bit of compassion.
>
She thought he was lying there dead before them..
>Seifer 'glued' Riona with Adel.
>
>Our hero saved his princess again.
>
>Seifer simply disappeared from the plot.
Too bad. However killing him wouldn't have made much difference, and
him "getting back to normal" with raijin and Fujin helped give the
game a happy ending..
>------
>
>Not that I like Seifer, but the part that he was portrait as Squall's
>rival was so unconvincing. He was weak, and only fought with the main
>character 2.5 times (part of that in the opening) and none of the
>fight was impressive or dramatic. His relationship with Riona was
>summed up in a few sentences and didn't create any impact to Riona and
>Squall's relationship.
>
>Riona, without much conflict or struggle, turned to our main char very
>early in the game. This is no secret to all of us and made the story
>out right boring. Her char development is simply flat and
>straightforward.
I thought she was interesting and loveable.. After FF7, you figured
that she could be taken away at a moment's notice. Many players took
Squall's viewpoint and decided to "not get attached to her". I find
that quite amusing..
>
>Squall's character development is relatively more complete. But he is
>too typical as the quiet cool main character in a lot of games. He
>started to fall in love when Riona was in a coma ? (yawn)
>
He fell in love much earlier, but did not relize how much he wanted to
be with her until she was "taken away". Squall's friends(and Rinoa)
relized this, and kept them together as much as possible..
>If I were writing the story, I'll have Quistis to play a bigger role
>in between Squall and Riona. The conflict between Seifer and Squall
>should at least partially involve Riona.
I agree..
>The end game boss should be
>Seifer instead of a cardboard Witch out of nowhere.
Seifer was a failed rival. He was inferior to Squall and he knew it.
Actually letting him live and be with his friends was refreshing,
since square is so fond of killing anyone who is even slightly
"evil"..
>
>The whole plot is just lack of climax and too patchy.
>
Look closer.. Just because they don't spell it out for you dosn't mean
it isn't there.. With FF7, the plot was as thick as the script (which
wasn't too damn think) However, with 8, there is more to the
imagination. Stories that make you think are often better then
children's novels that spell everything out to you. (Find sephy, Kill
sephy)
>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
Me too..
TREPES FOREVER!!
===
This rant was brought to you by Microsoft(c)(R)(TM).
"We have never sought to create a monopoly. Our products are simply so good
that nobody feels the need to compete with us!"
wy
FM|;P~ When he realized he was being cold towards his comrades, he also
FM|;P~ realized he was being cold towards Rinoa. he wanted to apoligize, but
FM|;P~ she was in a coma..
Geez, do people ever get the idea of "you never realize something is
important to you until you lost it?" I thought it was pretty obvious. I
think Squall has feeling for Rinoa very early in the game, but he refuses
to accept this fact because of his past with Ellone. When Rinoa is in a
coma he realizes what it is like without her, and finally accept the fact
that he loves her.
FM|;P~ I thought she was interesting and loveable.. After FF7, you figured
FM|;P~ that she could be taken away at a moment's notice. Many players took
FM|;P~ Squall's viewpoint and decided to "not get attached to her". I find
FM|;P~ that quite amusing..
Hahahahahaha, that's interesting. :)
>>
FM|;P~ He fell in love much earlier, but did not relize how much he wanted to
FM|;P~ be with her until she was "taken away". Squall's friends(and Rinoa)
FM|;P~ relized this, and kept them together as much as possible..
I even start thinking Squall has feeling for Rinoa as early as the dance
sequence. I think one needs to pay close attention to the conversation
otherwise one will miss a lot of things.
One interesting note, if you talk to this guy down the elevator in FH,
Squall thinks this guy talks just like him ("just don't bother me...") and
he realizes it is not very nice.
>>The end game boss should be
>>Seifer instead of a cardboard Witch out of nowhere.
FM|;P~ Seifer was a failed rival. He was inferior to Squall and he knew it.
FM|;P~ Actually letting him live and be with his friends was refreshing,
FM|;P~ since square is so fond of killing anyone who is even slightly
FM|;P~ "evil"..
It would be *really* lame if the end boss is Seifer...I really don't want
to fight a loser like him in the final battle. I agree about what
happened to him in the ending, finally woke up from his silly dreams and
stayed with his friends.
FM|;P~ Look closer.. Just because they don't spell it out for you dosn't mean
FM|;P~ it isn't there.. With FF7, the plot was as thick as the script (which
FM|;P~ wasn't too damn think) However, with 8, there is more to the
FM|;P~ imagination. Stories that make you think are often better then
FM|;P~ children's novels that spell everything out to you. (Find sephy, Kill
FM|;P~ sephy)
I don't think FF7's plot is bad at all but I agree with you on 8.
After reading many posts here I started to think if Square really did a
good job with the translation. The text may be grammatically correct, but
I'm not quite sure if the translators get the real meaning behind what the
characters said. At the end there is a cultural difference between the
Amerikans (heh heh) and the Japanese...
>>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
FM|;P~ Me too..
I'll pick Rinoa, but Quistis is a close 2nd. Quistis looks *gorgeous* in
the CG. She looks better in her SeeD uniform, really. :)
w.y
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Astos
<hugebl...@hugeblackhole.com> wrote:
> Squall's character development is relatively more complete. But he is
> too typical as the quiet cool main character in a lot of games. He
> started to fall in love when Riona was in a coma ? (yawn)
I agree with you on most points, but I thought Squall's character
development was actually really good. His interior monologue gave you some
real insight into what he was thinking, and you could see as time went on
how he was starting to question his own behaviour, and his own thoughts and
feelings. As such, I found it believable the way he came out of his shell
(so to speak) when Rinoa went into the coma.
> If I were writing the story, I'll have Quistis to play a bigger role
> in between Squall and Riona. The conflict between Seifer and Squall
> should at least partially involve Riona. The end game boss should be
> Seifer instead of a cardboard Witch out of nowhere.
I thought Seifer was better off left the way he was. At the end of the
game, he still was far from perfect emotionally and behaviourally, but he
was getting a second chance at making his life work out, and at having
friends. The fishing scene was cool: we got to see that even though he was
still a spoiled brat, he could smile and laugh again (and in a warmhearted
way, rather than the traditional evil one).
Dan.
--
Dan Posluns - posl...@mcmaster.ca, formerly dpos...@total.net, formerly
ke...@astral.magic.ca
http://www-student.mcmaster.ca/~poslundc/
ICQ #35758902
"But what a mischievous thing to leave lying around... The Power of Gold...
Triforce..." - Zelda, ALTTP
"The power of the Brood is something to be respected and feared, but it
isn't enough to save or destroy the world..." - Peco, BoF3
"Hand me my lightsaber... it's the one that says, 'Bad Mother Fucker'." -
Samuel L. Jackson in Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
neo_zo...@hotmail.com
>
> The following is the love story plot in a nutshell.
>
> s
>
> p
>
> o
>
> i
>
> l
>
> e
>
> r
>
> fight' and they left a scar on each other's face.
More to it than that, but okay.
> Riona loved Seifer. But the story never described that part.
Sure it did.
> Squall made it to SeeD and Seifer didn't.
Yes...
> Then Squall met Riona. They danced. Riona ditched Squall when she
> saw her friends (Seifer? In theory he should be VERY upset and
> drinking in the bar because he didn't made it to SeeD).
What?
> A week later? Squall met Riona again, helped her in a mission. Riona
> didn't seem to like Squall very much.
She seemed attracted to him, yes.
> Seifer kidnapped the President because of Riona. Riona thought that
> Seifer was executed and got very depressed (and we started to realize
> that she was in love with Seifer).
Yes.
> Squall and Riona tried to kill Edea. They figured that Seifer was
> helping Edea.
Yes.
> Squall saved Riona (from lizards?) and mumbled 'stay close to me' and
> all of the sudden Riona turned to Squall (duh! that's easy .. I'll try
> in real life)
More to it than that.
> Squall knocked out Seifer (who turned out to be a wimp compare to
> Squall). Riona, Irvine and Squall fought Edea while Seifer was lying
> on the floor. Riona didn't say a thing about a guy that she loved
> before.
They'd already discussed the matter.
> 2nd disc.
>
> Escaped the prison ... back to Garden ... Riona started to go after
> Squall. Seifer was totally out of the picture.
Yes...
> G-Garden fight, Seifer mumbled about the relationship with Riona and
> she told him to shut up.
Okay.
> Riona had a COMA.
Yep.
> 3rd disc
>
> Our hero regretted and figured that he missed Riona.
Yes.
> Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a doctor
> would be more appropriate).
It was explained.
> Space flight ....
>
> ...
Yes? Funny, you've overlooked a MAJOR sequence of events here.
> Seifer again, he was still a wimp. This time, Riona showed a little
> bit of compassion.
Yes.
> Seifer 'glued' Riona with Adel.
Yes.
> Our hero saved his princess again.
Yes.
> Seifer simply disappeared from the plot.
Sure. So did everything else. Time DID fall apart, you know.
> 4th Disc
>
> They killed 'big cardboard witch out of nowhere' and lost in time and
> space. They found each other and kissed.
You must have missed the referrences to Ultimicia, and overlooked how
she fit into the history of the sorld.
> Seifer was last seen fishing in Balamb.
Finally happy.
> Not that I like Seifer, but the part that he was portrait as Squall's
> rival was so unconvincing. He was weak, and only fought with the main
> character 2.5 times (part of that in the opening) and none of the
> fight was impressive or dramatic. His relationship with Riona was
> summed up in a few sentences and didn't create any impact to Riona and
> Squall's relationship.
Her relationship with Seifer was already sncient history.
> Riona, without much conflict or struggle, turned to our main char very
> early in the game. This is no secret to all of us and made the story
> out right boring. Her char development is simply flat and
> straightforward.
Not really. She takes comfort in his strength and also wants to draw
him out and ease his lonliness.
> Squall's character development is relatively more complete. But he is
> too typical as the quiet cool main character in a lot of games. He
> started to fall in love when Riona was in a coma ? (yawn)
He didn't realize how much he had come to need her in his life until he
lost her. Makes perfect sense.
> If I were writing the story, I'll have Quistis to play a bigger role
> in between Squall and Riona. The conflict between Seifer and Squall
> should at least partially involve Riona. The end game boss should be
> Seifer instead of a cardboard Witch out of nowhere.
Sure, you could've turned it into a typical soap opera/love triangle,
instead of the emotional development of a scarred young man.
> The whole plot is just lack of climax and too patchy.
Some people can't deal with character drama.
-ZFP
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Williams
KC <hugebl...@hugeblackhole.com> wrote:
> FF8 is a good game overall, but the love story is simply lame.
Most definitely. I must correct you on one thing first, however - it's
R-I-N-O-A. Not Riona. Rinoa.
>
> Riona loved Seifer. But the story never described that part.
As it never described a lot of things. Many parts of this plot were
just thrown out there and never explained or expanded upon.
> Then Squall met Riona. They danced. Riona ditched Squall when she
> saw her friends (Seifer? In theory he should be VERY upset and
> drinking in the bar because he didn't made it to SeeD).
Well, he did say he never expected to be a SeeD. But then why was he
even in the Garden? Why not just leave and go fishing, as he
eventually does? Why not go shack up with Edea from the start, if
that's his dream?
> Squall knocked out Seifer (who turned out to be a wimp compare to
> Squall). Riona, Irvine and Squall fought Edea while Seifer was lying
> on the floor. Riona didn't say a thing about a guy that she loved
> before.
yeah, a pretty quick turnaround. Unconvincing. I'm sorry, real people
don't *ever* just forget about people they truly love, even if they
fall in love with someone else. Much less forget in the span of about
5 minutes, and then kill them (or so they think).
> Riona had a COMA.
>
> 3rd disc
>
> Our hero regretted and figured that he missed Riona.
>
> Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a doctor
> would be more appropriate).
I thought the same thing. At one point I actually shouted at my
TV "this girl is in need of medical attention, you fucking moron!"
Obviously I knew that in FF8 logic Ellone would end up helping her, but
it made no real-world sense. And if you're asking me to suspend
disbelief, even a fantasy has to make *some* real-world sense.
>
> Not that I like Seifer, but the part that he was portrait as Squall's
> rival was so unconvincing. He was weak, and only fought with the main
> character 2.5 times (part of that in the opening) and none of the
> fight was impressive or dramatic. His relationship with Riona was
> summed up in a few sentences and didn't create any impact to Riona and
> Squall's relationship.
>
> Riona, without much conflict or struggle, turned to our main char very
> early in the game. This is no secret to all of us and made the story
> out right boring. Her char development is simply flat and
> straightforward.
Yep; for me, the plot of the game was over on the first disc. I kept
playing because I still enjoyed the battles (easy as most of them were)
and the junction/GF system was complex enough (though often tedious) to
keep me involved. But there was really very little to the plot after
the first disc. No character development whatsoever.
>
> Squall's character development is relatively more complete.
I would actually disagree with this. Let's break it down. What do we
know about Squall? He was apparently Laguna and Raine's child. He
eventually ended up in an orphanage (like everybody else in the game -
how convenient). He was rendered practically mute by Ellone's leaving
that same orphanage.
That's about the extent we know of his past. Of his present, we know
he's a SeeD, and basically a jerk. That's about it.
As he progresses through the game, he becomes less of a jerk. That's
his character development. We do not learn much about any of his
motivations, or any of his feelings regarding his father (and his
abandonment by his father, who he treats just like any other guy), and
we have no idea *why* he's fallen for Rinoa other than he "got used to"
her. That's a pretty flimsy reason for falling head over heels in love
with someone. What qualities does she give him that he's been
missing? How does she fulfill his life? Is she an emotional
replacement for Raine? For Ellone? Does he feel she brings out a side
of himself that he's been repressing? Maybe, but this is never
expanded upon in the story to any degree whatsoever. Does she simply
make him feel less alone, as is implied? Again maybe, but then why
her? Why not Quistis, or Selphie, or pretty much *anybody*? These
things need to be brought out to have a satisfying character
progression and a satisfying love story.
> If I were writing the story, I'll have Quistis to play a bigger role
> in between Squall and Riona. The conflict between Seifer and Squall
> should at least partially involve Riona. The end game boss should be
> Seifer instead of a cardboard Witch out of nowhere.
Seifer's too boring of a boss, though; to make him the end boss you'd
have to have built him up over the course of the game and given him all
sorts of power that he didn't have - in which case you've basically got
a Sephiroth/Cloud battle all over again. I'm sure Square considered
this.
Since I started playing the game I've thought it felt like they were
writing the story as they were going along. There are so many
parallels to FF7, that I'll bet the Seifer/Squall rivalry *was* a
bigger part of the game originally (in fact Squall, Seifer, and Laguna
were the first three characters Square designed), but it was probably
toned down as the game progressed to make FF8 stand apart a bit more.
Ultimecia did feel very tacked on at the end, because the story was
obviously not structured from the beginning to end the way it did.
>
> The whole plot is just lack of climax and too patchy.
There are many, many holes in the plot. The one that *really* bothers
me is what ever happened to Rinoa's lifelong devotion to the Galbadian
Resistance? She apparently just forgot about that as quickly as she
forgot about Seifer. This was the start of the whole game, but like so
many other things in FF8 it eventually just went away without any
resolution. Rinoa was the leader of her faction of the Galbadian
Resistance - and the people she was leading are still *in* Galbadia,
her father is still the commander of the Galbadian army, and the
Galbadian government is still in power (minus Edea, who Rinoa was not
originally fighting with anyway). So at the end of the game we've got
Rinoa and Squall flying away into the sunset (figuratively speaking -
yes, I know it was really the moon), when people are presumably still
fighting and dying down below - people who Rinoa had previously called
friends and confidants.
The plot of the game just sort of wanders around randomly without ever
resolving anything before picking up the next plot string. The one
constant is Squall and Rinoa, and that's basically over by the end of
first disc (we all know what's going to happen eventually). The
writers clearly lacked focus, and clearly lacked the talent to write a
convincing love story. If I were writing the story, Seifer and Quistis
both play larger roles in the love quadrangle, the entire game revolves
around the Galbadian resistance movement (of course resolved in victory
at the end), and Ultimecia plays some sort of role from at the latest
the beginning of the 2nd disc. Adel is jettisoned as unnecessary
(which she was). Squall and Rinoa's pasts are dipped into a hell of a
lot more, as is the relationship and subsequent end of Laguna and Raine
(and there should be obvious parallels between Laguna/Raine and
Squall/Rinoa); the whole Laguna/Julia sequence is gone (unnecessary),
and Squall and Rinoa should both progress as characters throughout the
game as their motivations become clearer.
> p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
Me too, but that's just because Rinoa was written poorly. Quistis was
a much more mature and unassuming character, and I think most people
over the age of 12 relate better to that. Rinoa was just too cutesy in
that "you *have* to like me, everyone likes me!" kind of way. Rinoa
should have been a lot more like Tifa or Aerith - I think either of
those characters' personalities would have fit the love story between
Squall and Rinoa better.
--
// Jeff Williams
// ge...@nervhq.org
// "The one who survived is the one who had
// the will to make it happen." - Misato Katsuragi
robertgeiger
>>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
>Me too..
Nah...Selphie!
Kurt Kalata
>
>s
>
>p
>
>o
>
>i
>
>l
>
>e
>
>r
>
err...not quite. I though the love story portion was excellently done - but
apparently, I had different ideals than other people.
Face it, Squall was an abrasive jerk at the beginning of the game, and
doesn't waver too far from that (at least in his actions) for a good part of
the game. He meets Rinoa, who is slightly interested (calling him the most
handsome guy at the SeeD party) but he doesn't care a whole lot. But he
changes as the story goes along and realizes the strength of friendship -
but that doesn't hit him until after Rinoa is knocked cold (possibly dead to
him.) He can't apologize to Rinoa like he could to everyone else, and
realized what he truly felt for her (surely you've heard the phrase "Absence
makes the heart grow fonder?") In short, Rinoa completely changed Squall,
for the better.
I don't understand where Seifer even remotely fits into your argument (at
least about it being a love story anyway.)
Anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoyed the love story part
with Laguna and Raine too...I just felt it was really sad (even though there
wasn't much of it), perhaps because Laguna was about the most likable
character I've ever played as in an RPG.
H.P.Ford
KC <hugebl...@hugeblackhole.com> wrote:
> FF8 is a good game overall, but the love story is simply lame.
>
>
> s
>
> p
>
> o
>
> i
>
> l
>
> e
>
> r
>
> fight' and they left a scar on each other's face.
Hey... you're right! That makes no sense! Dammit, 16 and 17 year old
kids should NOT be acting like they're high-schoolers!
> Riona loved Seifer. But the story never described that part.
You're right.
> Squall made it to SeeD and Seifer didn't.
Also right.
> Then Squall met Riona. They danced. Riona ditched Squall when she
> saw her friends (Seifer? In theory he should be VERY upset and
> drinking in the bar because he didn't made it to SeeD).
Wrong. Rinoa was there to meet Cid and discuss a special arrangement
for the Timber Resistence. Paying attention when you're in Timber sorta
clarifies this.
> A week later? Squall met Riona again, helped her in a mission. Riona
> didn't seem to like Squall very much.
>
> Seifer kidnapped the President because of Riona. Riona thought that
> Seifer was executed and got very depressed (and we started to realize
> that she was in love with Seifer).
Yes, it wasn't flat out told to you from the very beginning because it
was supposed to be something of a surprise. It also provides motivation
for Squall to be envious; if Rinoa likes Seifer it's kind of a
challenge...
> Squall and Riona tried to kill Edea. They figured that Seifer was
> helping Edea.
>
> Squall saved Riona (from lizards?) and mumbled 'stay close to me' and
> all of the sudden Riona turned to Squall (duh! that's easy .. I'll try
> in real life)
I didn't comprehend that paragraph.
> Squall knocked out Seifer (who turned out to be a wimp compare to
> Squall). Riona, Irvine and Squall fought Edea while Seifer was lying
> on the floor. Riona didn't say a thing about a guy that she loved
> before.
Maybe because he, oh, I dunno, TRIED TO KILL THEM ALL!?
> 2nd disc.
>
> Escaped the prison ... back to Garden ... Riona started to go after
> Squall. Seifer was totally out of the picture.
>
> G-Garden fight, Seifer mumbled about the relationship with Riona and
> she told him to shut up.
Yes, being threatened with DEATH at the hands of an EVIL SORCERESS does
put cramps in a relationship.
> Riona had a COMA.
>
> 3rd disc
>
> Our hero regretted and figured that he missed Riona.
>
> Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a doctor
> would be more appropriate).
Dr. Kadowaki plainly says she doesn't know what to do. There are
several other sequences where nobody knows what has happened to Rinoa.
She is cold to the touch. Squall acts desperate, but given that he was
basically conflicted for the whole last half of Disc 2 about his
decisions in life (why he's closed off, etc), and also given Squall's
brief "opening up" at the concert (if you managed the concert right,
that is) then it wasn't completely unrealistic. He allowed himself to
care for Rinoa, and then lost her -- without even knowing it.
> Space flight ....
>
> ...
>
> Seifer again, he was still a wimp. This time, Riona showed a little
> bit of compassion.
>
> Seifer 'glued' Riona with Adel.
>
> Our hero saved his princess again.
That's a pretty dull way to sum up the amazing outer space sequence. I
was rooting for Squall to finally open up, and he did. And the whole
tragic twist of Rinoa being turned into a sorceress, nearly frozen by
the Esthar beaurocrats, and then so brutally and uncerimoniously used
as FOOD by Adel got me going. At that point, I was eager to save her as
well... I thought the game did a good job of making Rinoa an innocent
victim to play on your sympathies. Yes, it's kind of a cheap way of
doing it and yes, Rinoa doesn't have a lot of time devoted to her
backstory (like Selphie) but the character "struck" me. I was reminded
of a girl I know...
> Seifer simply disappeared from the plot.
>
> 4th Disc
>
> They killed 'big cardboard witch out of nowhere' and lost in time and
> space. They found each other and kissed.
>
> Seifer was last seen fishing in Balamb.
> ------
>
> Not that I like Seifer, but the part that he was portrait as Squall's
> rival was so unconvincing. He was weak, and only fought with the main
> character 2.5 times (part of that in the opening) and none of the
> fight was impressive or dramatic. His relationship with Riona was
> summed up in a few sentences and didn't create any impact to Riona and
> Squall's relationship.
I thought Siefer could have used a lot of work as well. He wasn't very
challenging in ANY of his incarnations. But I plainly admit that I
levelled up an insane amount and Junctioned like crazy, so he really
wasn't a match for Squall much less Squall and two friends.
> Riona, without much conflict or struggle, turned to our main char very
> early in the game. This is no secret to all of us and made the story
> out right boring. Her char development is simply flat and
> straightforward.
I'd give it a bit more credit than that. I think it was originally
intended to try to open Squall up, like the playful dance sequence.
Rinoa wasn't interested in Squall in that -- she just saw an incredibly
depressed looking guy slumped against the wall and pulled him out on
the floor to put him on the spot. The game is filled with little
tidbits like that, Rinoa and the other characters pulling "tricks" to
get under Squall's skin -- eventually they worked. In the process Rinoa
became dependent on Squall as well...
> Squall's character development is relatively more complete. But he is
> too typical as the quiet cool main character in a lot of games. He
> started to fall in love when Riona was in a coma ? (yawn)
Of course, unlike most of those games, Squall has a reason for being
this way. He talks about his fears and his decisions in quite a bit of
detail.
You probably missed the whole ironic twist of the game. Laguna is
Squall's father. Julia is Rinoa's mother. The romance broken by tragedy
in the past, is recreated in the present. I thought this tied in with
the Laguna flashbacks VERY well. Many Square games deal with the
circular idea of history, certain events happen again and again.
Xenogears, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 6 -- I believe Final Fantasy 8
has the same theme, although due to its focus (romantic love) it is
pulled off a LOT more subtly.
--
HPFord | I don't speak for anyone but me.
SquallXXLeonhrt
reason is in the bathroom for half of the sequences. But either way, I respect
your opinion. But the reason I figured we never found out about Seifer and
Rinoa is that, well Rinoa at least didn't want to talk about it. Seifer, he
tried to but Rinoa told him to shutup. As for Squall's character development,
I don't see what's the problem here but I'll move on. I loved the love story,
it added an effect that hasn't been there before. As for them finding eachother
in the ending, remember, when they were at Edea's house, they promise that if
they can't find eachother they will be in the flower field. I don't exactly
understand how they got there, but to me somethings are more fun when they are
left to be thought about, if you get what I'm saying.
neo_zo...@hotmail.com
Jeff Williams <ge...@nervhq.org> wrote:
>
> > Riona loved Seifer. But the story never described that part.
>
> As it never described a lot of things. Many parts of this plot were
> just thrown out there and never explained or expanded upon.
Or perhaps you just missed the explanations as you rushed therough the
game. About all that wasn't explained well was the origin of Lunatic
Pandora and the Lunar Cry.
> Well, he did say he never expected to be a SeeD.
Where did he say this?
> yeah, a pretty quick turnaround. Unconvincing. I'm sorry, real
> people don't *ever* just forget about people they truly love, even if
> they fall in love with someone else. Much less forget in the span of
> about 5 minutes, and then kill them (or so they think).
Who said anything about love? We're talking about an ex-boyfriend from
when you were 16 that you haven't seen for a year. This isn't
likely to be true love.
> > Our hero regretted and figured that he missed Riona.
> >
> > Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a
> > doctor would be more appropriate).
>
> I thought the same thing. At one point I actually shouted at my
> TV "this girl is in need of medical attention, you fucking moron!"
> Obviously I knew that in FF8 logic Ellone would end up helping her,
> but it made no real-world sense. And if you're asking me to suspend
> disbelief, even a fantasy has to make *some* real-world sense.
It made perfect sense. The doctors could do nothing for her and didn't
understand what had happened. He wanted to go back to that moment to
find out what happened. That's what Ellone was for. See what you learn
when you pay attention?
> Yep; for me, the plot of the game was over on the first disc. I kept
> playing because I still enjoyed the battles (easy as most of them
> were) and the junction/GF system was complex enough (though often
> tedious) to keep me involved. But there was really very little to the
> plot after the first disc. No character development whatsoever.
This is, of course, completely false. I guess you just weren't paying
attention.
> > Squall's character development is relatively more complete.
>
> I would actually disagree with this. Let's break it down. What do we
> know about Squall? He was apparently Laguna and Raine's child. He
> eventually ended up in an orphanage (like everybody else in the game -
> how convenient). He was rendered practically mute by Ellone's leaving
> that same orphanage.
>
> That's about the extent we know of his past. Of his present, we know
> he's a SeeD, and basically a jerk. That's about it.
We know his childhood was a lonely one, punctuated by the loss of
Ellone. We know he wanted to show his sister that he could take care of
himself. We know that he's afraid of depending on people or opening up,
and doesn't really see anything as permanent. He feels he has nothing
except the Garden and Seed. I'm not sure what more you could ask for
as development.
> As he progresses through the game, he becomes less of a jerk. That's
> his character development.
This is 100% FALSE! I'm so SICK of this! We get to see what's going on
inside his head, we watch him hide his fears and his confusion, we watch
him struggle to bear up under his responsibilities, we watch him finally
open up to Rinoa... It's more realistic character development than
almost ANYONE in any other RPG.
> We have no idea *why* he's fallen for Rinoa other than he "got used
> to" her. That's a pretty flimsy reason for falling head over heels in
> love with someone. What qualities does she give him that he's been
> missing? How does she fulfill his life? Is she an emotional
> replacement for Raine? For Ellone? Does he feel she brings out a
> side of himself that he's been repressing? Maybe, but this is never
> expanded upon in the story to any degree whatsoever.
It is all of these things, and it's all made VERY clear. Somehow, you
overlooked ALL of that.
> These things need to be brought out to have a satisfying character
> progression and a satisfying love story.
They were. You ignored them, apparently.
> Since I started playing the game I've thought it felt like they were
> writing the story as they were going along. There are so many
> parallels to FF7, that I'll bet the Seifer/Squall rivalry *was* a
> bigger part of the game originally (in fact Squall, Seifer, and Laguna
> were the first three characters Square designed), but it was probably
> toned down as the game progressed to make FF8 stand apart a bit more.
> Ultimecia did feel very tacked on at the end, because the story was
> obviously not structured from the beginning to end the way it did.
Of course it was, it just went over your head. At the end you learn how
the past, present, and future all tied together neatly. Not exactly a
sign of "write as you go along".
> There are many, many holes in the plot. The one that *really* bothers
> me is what ever happened to Rinoa's lifelong devotion to the Galbadian
> Resistance? She apparently just forgot about that as quickly as she
> forgot about Seifer.
Excuse me? Deling was killed, so that took him out of the picture.
Then Edea was defeated, freeing Galbadia. Then there was also a larger
threat to deal with. Why should she dwell on something that's been
dealt with?
> Galbadian government is still in power (minus Edea, who Rinoa was not
> originally fighting with anyway). So at the end of the game we've got
> Rinoa and Squall flying away into the sunset (figuratively speaking -
> yes, I know it was really the moon), when people are presumably still
> fighting and dying down below - people who Rinoa had previously called
> friends and confidants.
Why would they be fighting? Deling was dead, and he was the head of the
oppressive regieme. Did you miss that part too?
> The plot of the game just sort of wanders around randomly without ever
> resolving anything before picking up the next plot string. The one
> constant is Squall and Rinoa, and that's basically over by the end of
> first disc (we all know what's going to happen eventually). The
> writers clearly lacked focus, and clearly lacked the talent to write a
> convincing love story. If I were writing the story, Seifer and
> Quistis both play larger roles in the love quadrangle, the entire game
> revolves around the Galbadian resistance movement (of course resolved
> in victory at the end), and Ultimecia plays some sort of role from at
> the latest the beginning of the 2nd disc. Adel is jettisoned as
> unnecessary (which she was). Squall and Rinoa's pasts are dipped into
> a hell of a lot more, as is the relationship and subsequent end of
> Laguna and Raine (and there should be obvious parallels between
> Laguna/Raine and Squall/Rinoa); the whole Laguna/Julia sequence is
> gone (unnecessary), and Squall and Rinoa should both progress as
> characters throughout thegame as their motivations become clearer.
Funny thing is, almost all of this WAS done in FF8. The point was not
to have a love quadrangle(done in FF7 already), but to show the hurt,
lonely Squall fumbling his way to making a connection with Rinoa. The
Galbadian resistance was resolved then Adel and Deling were taken out of
the picture. Ultimimecia(as Adel, Edea, and Rinoa) played a role from
the beginning of disc 1. Adel WAS necessary. Obvious parallels with
Laguna/Raine? How about the obvious parallel of Julia(unecessary?) and
Laguna, Rinoa's mother and Squall's father? Just about everything you
wanted was there, if you bothered to pay attention. Just because you
didn't get the soap opera/guerrila war drama you wanted doesn't make it
a bad story
> > p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
>
> Me too, but that's just because Rinoa was written poorly. Quistis was
> a much more mature and unassuming character, and I think most people
> over the age of 12 relate better to that. Rinoa was just too cutesy
> in that "you *have* to like me, everyone likes me!" kind of way.
> Rinoa should have been a lot more like Tifa or Aerith - I think either
> of those characters' personalities would have fit the love story
> between Squall and Rinoa better.
Not at all. A mature, reserved person would NEVER be able to draw
another mature, reserved person out of their shell. Rinoa was EXACTLY
what Squall needed.
-ZFP
Sean Daugherty
>Geez, do people ever get the idea of "you never realize something is
>important to you until you lost it?" I thought it was pretty obvious. I
>think Squall has feeling for Rinoa very early in the game, but he refuses
>to accept this fact because of his past with Ellone.
Which would be marginally convincing if he shown to be anything other
than *completely indifferent* to her. The game doesn't present the
situation as "Squall denying his true feelings." He treats Rinoa no
differently from anyone else in the party, for better or for worse,
until she goes comatose.
FF8 has some fascinating ideas: conceptually, the interplay between
Edea/Rinoa/Ultimicea is fascinating, as is the rivalry between Squall
and Seifer, and Ellone's mysterious abilities. But the game doesn't
particularly bother to develop any of these very far. Seifer's shown
to have his "knight in shining armor" fetish, but we're completely
left in the dark as to why. Rinoa gaining Edea's powers is laughably
rushed, and don't get me started on the GF amnesia gimmick. In that
same vein, Squall and Rinoa's relationship is underdeveloped, and
poorly managed, IMNSHO. There very little by means of good pacing in
the game, and the result is very disjointed as a result.
--
Sean Daugherty (sean.da...@oberlin.edu ~ ICQ: 20801608)
"In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade
And he carries a reminder of ev'ry glove that laid him down
And cut him 'til he cried out, in his anger and his shame,
'I am leaving, I am leaving." But the fighter still remains."
- Paul Simon, "The Boxer"
DISCLAIMER: The previously stated opinions do not
represent those of Oberlin college or its staff
neo_zo...@hotmail.com
Sean Daugherty <sean.da...@oberlin.edu> wrote:
>
> Which would be marginally convincing if he shown to be anything other
> than *completely indifferent* to her. The game doesn't present the
> situation as "Squall denying his true feelings." He treats Rinoa no
> differently from anyone else in the party, for better or for worse,
> until she goes comatose.
There's something between them. I saw it, others did too. I guess some
didn't.
> FF8 has some fascinating ideas: conceptually, the interplay between
> Edea/Rinoa/Ultimicea is fascinating, as is the rivalry between Squall
> and Seifer, and Ellone's mysterious abilities. But the game doesn't
> particularly bother to develop any of these very far. Seifer's shown
> to have his "knight in shining armor" fetish, but we're completely
> left in the dark as to why. Rinoa gaining Edea's powers is laughably
> rushed, and don't get me started on the GF amnesia gimmick. In that
> same vein, Squall and Rinoa's relationship is underdeveloped, and
> poorly managed, IMNSHO. There very little by means of good pacing in
> the game, and the result is very disjointed as a result.
The game was very well paced, with dramatic events well-spaced
throughout. The relationships were also well developed. With Rinoa
constantly in Squall's face, it makes sense that her sudden absence
would make his life seem that much more empty without her. Once he
realized how much he needed her, the rest of it made perfect sense.
Sean Daugherty
>> Somehow he got the idea that Elone could help (duh! I thought a doctor
>> would be more appropriate).
>
>It was explained.
Sort of. Dr. Kadowaki was at a loss, but I still think it was rather
irresponsible, if not just plain silly, of Squall to automatically
resort to such a hair-brained scheme just because that someone who
amounts to a school nurse was stumped. It wasn't entirely
out-of-character, mind you, but it certainly doesn't make Squall
anymore likable, or sympathetic, of a character.
Which is part of why the whole love story aspect doesn't work for me.
Rinoa's forced upon the story almost as a polar opposite of Squall,
and too much of her initial development revolves around "wow, isn't
she a much better-rounded individual than Squall is?" It doesn't make
either of them particularly endearing, I'm afraid.
Squall, in his capacity as a main character, doesn't need to be overly
likable, per se. But he comes off with asocial tendencies that make
Cloud Strife look well balanced, and, frankly, he doesn't have the
excuse that Cloud does ;). He alternates from being a spoiled brat, to
simply being a lousy leader, who's so forcibly noncerned with anyone
and anything other than himself I'm surprised everyone puts up with
him.
Squall's development never really pushes him past that selfishness
stage. He opens up, but just to Rinoa, and even when he does he's
still acting out of almost completely selfish motives. He has a
responsibility to lead which he shirks to be with Rinoa. Which would
be touching if it wasn't coupled with every other "I don't need anyone
else" attitude he's copped throughout the entire game.
In a sense, Squall is developed well. We know why he thinks the way he
does, and we have reasonable understand of how he got to where he is
today. But he's still an utterly deplorable individual. And for any
love story to work for me, I need to be at least able to stand the
principal participants. IMO. YMMV.
wy
Address == "sean.da...@oberlin.edu"
Date == "Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:16:36 -0400"
MessageID == "<1t=zN=UR7oS3ktrb4...@4ax.com>"
SD|;P~ FF8 has some fascinating ideas: conceptually, the interplay between
SD|;P~ Edea/Rinoa/Ultimicea is fascinating, as is the rivalry between Squall
SD|;P~ and Seifer, and Ellone's mysterious abilities. But the game doesn't
SD|;P~ particularly bother to develop any of these very far. Seifer's shown
SD|;P~ to have his "knight in shining armor" fetish, but we're completely
SD|;P~ left in the dark as to why. Rinoa gaining Edea's powers is laughably
SD|;P~ rushed, and don't get me started on the GF amnesia gimmick. In that
SD|;P~ same vein, Squall and Rinoa's relationship is underdeveloped, and
SD|;P~ poorly managed, IMNSHO. There very little by means of good pacing in
SD|;P~ the game, and the result is very disjointed as a result.
Hmmm I can see your point and I do agree that some parts need more
explanation, but it just didn't bother me that much though. It's not that
I don't pay attention to the story, actually the story is the 1st thing I
look at in an RPG, but overall FF8's story is pretty good, they just need
to explain more here and there, nothing *major*. Overall I found the game
to be enjoyable as much as other RPGs I've played.
w.y
wy
>>The following is the love story plot in a nutshell.
>>
>>s
>>
>>p
>>
>>o
>>
>>i
>>
>>l
>>
>>e
>>
>>r
>>
[Totally agree so snipped]
KK|;P~ I don't understand where Seifer even remotely fits into your argument (at
KK|;P~ least about it being a love story anyway.)
KK|;P~ Anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoyed the love story part
KK|;P~ with Laguna and Raine too...I just felt it was really sad (even though there
KK|;P~ wasn't much of it), perhaps because Laguna was about the most likable
KK|;P~ character I've ever played as in an RPG.
I *really* like the Laguna and Raine's part in the ending. It is very
touching and sad. In a way Squall is such a lucky guy, when compare with
Laguna.
w.y
--
Orlando
>
> You probably missed the whole ironic twist of the game. Laguna is
> Squall's father. Julia is Rinoa's mother. The romance broken by tragedy
>
Uh, where does it say that Laguna was Squall's father?? I don't remember
any scene implying this at all..
-Orlando
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Sean Daugherty
>The game was very well paced, with dramatic events well-spaced
>throughout. The relationships were also well developed.
I can't agree. I suppose the relationship angle is somewhat arbitrary,
but the game is, quite simply, poorly paced. It relies on exposition
at least as much as FF7, and, unlike in FF7, a good number of the
revelations in these expository passage don't click with a large
segment of the audience (the GF amnesia mess, for instance). Rinoa's
gaining Edea's powers is treated almost as an afterthought and not as
the important plot twist it really is.
Meanwhile, the game focuses rather excessively on minutae. In the
small touches, its brilliant. The whole cafeteria hot dog joke was
entertaining, and a lot of the foreshadowing in the Laguna sequences
was brilliant. But when it comes to the earth-shattering, colossal
revelations, the game is surprisingly bad at both leading into and
following up upon them.
My inclination is to believe the game was initially concieved with the
emphasis almost solely on the interpersonal aspects: Rinoa and
Squall's relationship. These characterizational aspect are
well-handled, but the overall story is downright painful. In that
respect, I find it very similar to Final Fantasy VI, only worse.
>With Rinoa
>constantly in Squall's face, it makes sense that her sudden absence
>would make his life seem that much more empty without her. Once he
>realized how much he needed her, the rest of it made perfect sense.
True, but it doesn't make either of them likable. It makes Rinoa seem
pushy and annoying, and it makes Squall seem completely overwhelmed
throughout the entire story. And unlike Squall, or Celes, or Terra, or
even Cecil, he remains overwhelmed by his situation throughout the
entire scope of the story. Which makes him an uncompelling focal point
for the narrative.
Is Squall well-characterized? In the technical sense, yes. We know
what and why he is thinking, and we have a solid grasp of the kind of
person he is. Unfortunately, that person is, to put it bluntly, a
jerk. I could live with this understanding if the game didn't place
such a heavy emphasis on pathos: we're supposed to be drawn in by his
relationship with Rinoa. Where it utterly fails for me, however, is
the game never bothers to reverse my comprehension of Squall as a
jerk, so I can't care about him, or his relationship, at least in the
sense I believe the developers wanted.
wy
nzhc|;P~ Or perhaps you just missed the explanations as you rushed therough the
nzhc|;P~ game. About all that wasn't explained well was the origin of Lunatic
nzhc|;P~ Pandora and the Lunar Cry.
Isn't the Crystal Pillar just kinda fell to the planet from moon long long
time ago and the Esthar people built the Lunatic Pandora to contain it?
They "kinda" explain it in the tutorial, I wish they gave more detail to
that.
nzhc|;P~ Not at all. A mature, reserved person would NEVER be able to draw
nzhc|;P~ another mature, reserved person out of their shell. Rinoa was EXACTLY
nzhc|;P~ what Squall needed.
I really can't imagine Quistis and Squall being a couple. Squall is a
serious person, so does Quistis, I mean, it's gonna be a boring couple....
wy
KC
>kids should NOT be acting like they're high-schoolers!
Well, that CG was so impressive. I thought: em... that must be some
of the dramatic fight between the main char with his rival. The
scar/feather must be some important symbols (very much a John Woo
style, - Face Off)
Guess how I felt when I figured that scar was a result of a childish
fight?
>Wrong. Rinoa was there to meet Cid and discuss a special arrangement
>for the Timber Resistence. Paying attention when you're in Timber sorta
>clarifies this.
I did pay attention.
Rinoa said that Seifer led herself to Cid. I expected that was Seifer
in the ballroom.
>
>> Squall saved Riona (from lizards?) and mumbled 'stay close to me' and
>> all of the sudden Riona turned to Squall (duh! that's easy .. I'll try
>> in real life)
>
>I didn't comprehend that paragraph.
Simply put, there isn't much of evidence or support argument for Rinoa
to fall in love with Squall at that point. Irvine saved her as well.
Why Squall?
>
>> Squall knocked out Seifer (who turned out to be a wimp compare to
>> Squall). Riona, Irvine and Squall fought Edea while Seifer was lying
>> on the floor. Riona didn't say a thing about a guy that she loved
>> before.
>
>Maybe because he, oh, I dunno, TRIED TO KILL THEM ALL!?
She joined the fight after Seifer was knocked out. I believe a
typical ex-lover would at least check out WTF is with Seifer? Is
Seifer on crack or something ....
That was Squall and Irvine who wanted to kill Edea to start with. If
Rinoa's love (in this case, still Seifer) is in the conflict she
should:
a) talk Seifer out
b) get in between the fight and hurt herself
c) be excused to fight
>> G-Garden fight, Seifer mumbled about the relationship with Riona and
>> she told him to shut up.
>
>Yes, being threatened with DEATH at the hands of an EVIL SORCERESS does
>put cramps in a relationship.
>
>
>Dr. Kadowaki plainly says she doesn't know what to do. There are
>several other sequences where nobody knows what has happened to Rinoa.
>She is cold to the touch. Squall acts desperate, but given that he was
>basically conflicted for the whole last half of Disc 2 about his
>decisions in life (why he's closed off, etc), and also given Squall's
>brief "opening up" at the concert (if you managed the concert right,
>that is) then it wasn't completely unrealistic. He allowed himself to
>care for Rinoa, and then lost her -- without even knowing it.
The most logical decision I would make:
a) Get a second opinion from another doc.
b) Ask Cid if he knows if there is a super-duper G.F. or Witch who can
cast 'Full lifega' or 'Revivega'
c) Look for some super rare drug
The plot just needed an excuse to shoot all the characters up to
Space. Elone became the excuse.
Of course, that's my opinion.
>
>That's a pretty dull way to sum up the amazing outer space sequence. I
>was rooting for Squall to finally open up, and he did. And the whole
>tragic twist of Rinoa being turned into a sorceress, nearly frozen by
>the Esthar beaurocrats, and then so brutally and uncerimoniously used
>as FOOD by Adel got me going. At that point, I was eager to save her as
>well... I thought the game did a good job of making Rinoa an innocent
>victim to play on your sympathies. Yes, it's kind of a cheap way of
>doing it and yes, Rinoa doesn't have a lot of time devoted to her
>backstory (like Selphie) but the character "struck" me. I was reminded
>of a girl I know...
I agree that the space sequence was kinda romantic, but I also feel
cheesy afterwards.
I guess it's the aftertaste...
>
>I thought Siefer could have used a lot of work as well. He wasn't very
>challenging in ANY of his incarnations. But I plainly admit that I
>levelled up an insane amount and Junctioned like crazy, so he really
>wasn't a match for Squall much less Squall and two friends.
>
That might be the case, but he is too hyped up as Squall's rival. If
he is not much better than a monster then pls don't print his picture
on the CD as big as Squall and Rinoa.
>I'd give it a bit more credit than that. I think it was originally
>intended to try to open Squall up, like the playful dance sequence.
>Rinoa wasn't interested in Squall in that -- she just saw an incredibly
>depressed looking guy slumped against the wall and pulled him out on
>the floor to put him on the spot. The game is filled with little
>tidbits like that, Rinoa and the other characters pulling "tricks" to
>get under Squall's skin -- eventually they worked. In the process Rinoa
>became dependent on Squall as well...
I dunno, I think the love story development is neither subtle
(realistic) nor dramatic(climatic). The ending, in particular, very
Disney.
>
>> Squall's character development is relatively more complete. But he is
>> too typical as the quiet cool main character in a lot of games. He
>> started to fall in love when Riona was in a coma ? (yawn)
>
>Of course, unlike most of those games, Squall has a reason for being
>this way. He talks about his fears and his decisions in quite a bit of
>detail.
>
>You probably missed the whole ironic twist of the game. Laguna is
>Squall's father. Julia is Rinoa's mother. The romance broken by tragedy
>in the past, is recreated in the present. I thought this tied in with
>the Laguna flashbacks VERY well. Many Square games deal with the
>circular idea of history, certain events happen again and again.
>Xenogears, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 6 -- I believe Final Fantasy 8
>has the same theme, although due to its focus (romantic love) it is
>pulled off a LOT more subtly.
The Laguna and Julia part is not long enough to parallel with Squall
and Riona. In fact, I feel Raine is more important than Julia in
Laguna's life. Julia doesn't seem to be an important char in the
plot. All I saw was Laguna beating himself for not getting back to
Julia; that's the end of Julia in the whole story.
Trust me, I spent 60 hrs on this game and read a lot of news group
discussions. Every subtle script is talked about.
I still think it's lame.
p.s. My jaw dropped when Julia asked Laguna (potenially a crazy fan)
to see her in her bedroom.
Jennifer Hawthorne
<orla...@ERASEMEyahoo.com> wrote:
>H.P.Ford wrote:
>>
>> You probably missed the whole ironic twist of the game. Laguna is
>> Squall's father. Julia is Rinoa's mother. The romance broken by tragedy
>>
>
>Uh, where does it say that Laguna was Squall's father?? I don't remember
>any scene implying this at all..
It wasn't said, but it was very heavily implied --
1) Raine and Laguna got married shortly before Laguna went off to
rescue Ellone from Esthar. One would assume they got in at least a
one-night honeymoon before they had to part.
2) After rescuing Ellone and sending her back to Winhill to be with
Raine, Laguna got tangled up in Estharian politics, trying to get rid
of Adel. Thus, Ellone was with Raine when she died but Laguna wasn't.
3) Ellone tried to change the past so that Laguna would be with Raine
when Raine died so that Laguna could see Raine's "new baby." If it
wasn't Laguna who fathered Raine's child, Raine was cheating on her
husband, which seems out of character -- not to mention the fact that
it was specifically mentioned that there weren't any other men left in
the village who weren't either very old or very young.
4) Ellone is sent off to Edea's orphanage. A younger child, a boy
named Squall, is also present at the orphanage, is very attached to
Ellone, calls her Big Sis, and is emotionally wrecked when she is
taken away from him to protect her.
It doesn't take much to deduce that when Ellone was moved to Edea's
orphanage, Raine's baby -- fathered by Laguna -- was taken there too.
And Squall and Ellone's attachment was notably closer than that of any
of the other kids to Ellone, even though she big-sistered all of them.
So it's a pretty easy conclusion to draw that Squall is Laguna and
Raine's child. Where the heck he got the last name Leonhart from is a
mystery; Ellone would have known that his last name should be "Loire".
(For that matter, why does Rinoa have her mother's last name, not her
dad's? I suppose she could have taken her mother's name when she had
her falling out with her father.)
Now, given that all of Squall's group were the same age, and that the
gender of Raine's baby was never mentioned, this isn't *proven.* For
all we know, it could be Selphie Loire, or Quistis Loire, or Irvine
Loire, or Zell Loire. (Actually, Irvine's tempermentally a lot like
Laguna, if you believe such things are inherited...)
Still, the "Fated Circle" of Laguna and Julia's children getting
together, thus consummating their broken romance a generation later,
is nicely poetic, so I choose to believe that. Plus the extra
closeness of Squall and Ellone leans in the direction of him being her
beloved "Uncle Laguna's" child. And she *did* pick him to link to
Laguna.
I'll confess to being more than a little disappointed that there
wasn't some recognition on *Laguna's* part when he and Squall finally
met face to face. There's no reason for Squall to suspect his
heritage, but surely Ellone would have told Laguna, wouldn't she? And
Squall even looks a fair bit like Raine. And I thought Laguna went
back to Winhill once he settled Adel's hash and found that Raine was
dead and Ellone had been taken away to an orphanage -- no one bothered
to mention that Raine had had a child who had also been taken away
along with Ellone?
I was really looking forward to Laguna or Ellone spilling the beans to
Squall, just to see Squall's horrified reaction -- "WHAT?! No way!
You're a total goofball! No way you're my dad! NOOOOOO!" (As he jumps
down a garbage chute a la Luke Skywalker ;) But it didn't happen,
sigh.
-- Jen H.
SquallXXLeonhrt
1) On the Ragnarok, if you talk to Kiros he says "You look like your mother",
then if you talk to Ward, he can't talk but Kiros thinks "(ward says going
thing you don't look like your father)". Then if you talk to Laguna he says he
has a lot to tell Squall when it's all over. How would Kiros know what his
mother and father looked like unless it was Laguna and Raine?
2) In the flashback in the infirmary, Ellone talks to Squall in his head and
says that Raine had had a child when Laguna went off to look for her. And that
Rain wanted to show Laguna her newborn baby (their child as they got married),
but then she died and the children were sent to the orphanage. At the end of
the flashback Squall says "I'm..."
3) Squall is the only one who can help Ellone as she whispers in his ear. Why
would this be? He has to be Laguna in the flashbacks, he's the only one that
can be...
4) If you go to Shumi village, the man there tells you that Laguna tried to
teach Moombas to speak, and if you look in the tutorial, Moomba's identify
people by smelling their blood. In the prison, the moomba calls Squall
"Laguna!" Meaning either Laguna and Squall are the same person which is
impossible or the Moomba sensed Laguna's blood, which means Squall would be
blood related.
5) (Strange, yet true) Zell's mother had Zell's card, Rinoa's father had
Rinoa's card, and Laguna had Squall's card. Granted the other character cards
were spread throughout, BUT...it seemed whenever possible they would put a
characters card with their parents, and the other character's parents weren't
in the game so that would have been tough to do.
KC
wrote:
>
>Seifer's too boring of a boss, though; to make him the end boss you'd
>have to have built him up over the course of the game and given him all
>sorts of power that he didn't have - in which case you've basically got
>a Sephiroth/Cloud battle all over again. I'm sure Square considered
>this.
>
True enough. I think the whole story can conclude at the end of disk
3 and make Adel the ultimate foe.
All the Ultimedia related plot can be replaced by "This happens
because Adel is coming back".
Adel's spirit pocessed Edea and Rinoa and woke up at the end. The
story would still work.
Malkere
Squall and Rinoa are half-brother-and-sister, both fathered by Laguna.
Laguna was alone with Julia, who had the hots for him. When he left for war,
she was pregnant but didn't know it. Enter, Col. Calaway, who took
resposibility for Julia, which would account for Rinoa's hatred for her
'father' and her keeping her mother's name and not her 'father's'.
If that's the case... EEEEWWWWW!!!!!
H.P.Ford
wrote:
[SNIP]
>I did pay attention.
>
>Rinoa said that Seifer led herself to Cid. I expected that was Seifer
>in the ballroom.
Really? Damn, I must be wrong. Sorry about that. :(
>>Maybe because he, oh, I dunno, TRIED TO KILL THEM ALL!?
>
>She joined the fight after Seifer was knocked out. I believe a
>typical ex-lover would at least check out WTF is with Seifer? Is
>Seifer on crack or something ....
I understand that, but she had to have known what was going on. Or
suspected it at least. The confusion of the assassination scene and
the abruptness of Edea's attack didn't leave a lot of time for her to
do anything. And I never really got the impression that Rinoa was in
"true love" with Siefer, simply because it was under-developed.
Teenagers go through a lot of different flings, at least the ones I've
hung around. They are all important at some point, but as deep and
meaningul they consider them one day, they're just as meaningless the
next...
>The most logical decision I would make:
>
>a) Get a second opinion from another doc.
>b) Ask Cid if he knows if there is a super-duper G.F. or Witch who can
>cast 'Full lifega' or 'Revivega'
>c) Look for some super rare drug
>
>The plot just needed an excuse to shoot all the characters up to
>Space. Elone became the excuse.
>
>Of course, that's my opinion.
I think the problem would have been solved if it showed a scene
discussing Squall's other options. I got the impression there weren't
any, but the game certainly doesn't give you that info.
>I agree that the space sequence was kinda romantic, but I also feel
>cheesy afterwards.
>
>I guess it's the aftertaste...
I can see that, but there are tons of worse ways to handle such a
scene. The movie Titanic is a glaring example of them, if you ask me.
>That might be the case, but he is too hyped up as Squall's rival. If
>he is not much better than a monster then pls don't print his picture
>on the CD as big as Squall and Rinoa.
Why does Seifer have to be the final villain or an ultimate rival?
After I played through it I felt like you -- still do -- Seifer would
have been cooler as a stronger villain. But, the main reason he was in
the plot was to provide a counterpoint to Squall. Seifer is Squall
gone bad, basically -- they both are indrawn, aggressive, looking for
something to fight for. Seifer lets his dream take control of him, is
all. Much like Laguna mirrors Squall in the past... Laguna fights for
what he loves openly, and yet still fails... precisely what Squall
most fears.
>I dunno, I think the love story development is neither subtle
>(realistic) nor dramatic(climatic). The ending, in particular, very
>Disney.
If it weren't subtle, there would be no complaints of "Squall just
suddenly changes his mind!" The love story itself isn't dramatic as
far as emotions displayed, but the lengths to which the characters go
(outer space, Rinoa's near death, etc) definitely is.
There has yet to be a perfect Final Fantasy ending. I agree with you
there.
>The Laguna and Julia part is not long enough to parallel with Squall
>and Riona. In fact, I feel Raine is more important than Julia in
>Laguna's life. Julia doesn't seem to be an important char in the
>plot. All I saw was Laguna beating himself for not getting back to
>Julia; that's the end of Julia in the whole story.
I thought that was due to the gimmicky nature of Ellone's gift. The
Laguna story is given in flashes -- you might as well say Laguna's
story isn't as important as Squall's is.
>Trust me, I spent 60 hrs on this game and read a lot of news group
>discussions. Every subtle script is talked about.
>
>I still think it's lame.
I'm glad you took the time to point out why, you present a
well-supported view.
Julia Lee
I mostly agree with what you say, but here's another explanation as to
why Ellone sends Squall's conciousness back into Laguna I believe
that Ellone wanted Squall to know his father's(Laguna) story, she
wanted him to understand that he was not intentionally abandoned and
that there are people that care very much for him. It's not so much
about changing the past, but to concilate with it, for their future.
wy
JH|;P~ Raine's child. Where the heck he got the last name Leonhart from is a
JH|;P~ mystery; Ellone would have known that his last name should be "Loire".
JH|;P~ (For that matter, why does Rinoa have her mother's last name, not her
JH|;P~ dad's? I suppose she could have taken her mother's name when she had
JH|;P~ her falling out with her father.)
hmmm may be Raine's last name is Leonhart? of course it was never
mentioned in the game...
JH|;P~ Still, the "Fated Circle" of Laguna and Julia's children getting
JH|;P~ together, thus consummating their broken romance a generation later,
JH|;P~ is nicely poetic, so I choose to believe that.
I have to say that's one of the best part in the game, I like it a lot.
It's just sad that Squall is so lucky unlike his father.
JH|;P~ I'll confess to being more than a little disappointed that there
JH|;P~ wasn't some recognition on *Laguna's* part when he and Squall finally
JH|;P~ met face to face. There's no reason for Squall to suspect his
JH|;P~ heritage, but surely Ellone would have told Laguna, wouldn't she? And
JH|;P~ Squall even looks a fair bit like Raine. And I thought Laguna went
JH|;P~ back to Winhill once he settled Adel's hash and found that Raine was
JH|;P~ dead and Ellone had been taken away to an orphanage -- no one bothered
JH|;P~ to mention that Raine had had a child who had also been taken away
JH|;P~ along with Ellone?
I believe Laguna had said he never went back to Winhill. He was forced to
become the president of Esthar and was bogged down since then. He didn't
know what happened until he met Ellone in space.
Jennifer Hawthorne
<mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Here's something sick, but not impossible...
>
>Squall and Rinoa are half-brother-and-sister, both fathered by Laguna.
Heh. I thought of that too, briefly, but decided not to mention it.
(As you said, EEEWWW! And it gives a whole new meaning to "I miss Big
Sis.") Still, just to be evil, I'll point out that there's a lot more
potential evidence for *that* bizarre plot twist than there is for the
two-timeline theory...."A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the
Future"...
Oh, and when I was listing possible Laguna kids, I missed one --
Seifer Loire! Hey, it *could* account for Seifer's "knight" fixation,
since that's how everyone viewed Laguna (no, I'm not serious, but it's
fun to speculate anyway ;)
-- Jen H.
Jennifer Hawthorne
Hunh, that's a good point...and it provides something of an
explanation of why Ellone started sending Squall back in time to begin
with. I've never been clear exactly why Ellone was *at* Balamb Garden
at the start of the game -- visiting Cid so Cid could find out what
happened to Edea, maybe? It's never said. Anyway, it wasn't until
after she saw Squall in the infirmary that she started sending him
back in time. Maybe she saw how miserably isolated he was, felt
responsible for having left him alone, and wanted to try and help him
out If she could have changed things so Laguna was there when Raine
died, she and Squall would have both grown up with an uncle/father,
instead of parentless, and most likely have been happier for it.
The "You're my only hope" line later on, however, implies that Ellone
at some point decided Squall was needed to defeat Ultimecia. (Maybe
because she was so impressed with his fighting ability after he and
Quistis saved her in the Training Grounds?) Come to think of it,
though -- I can't really see any way in which Squall's "going back"
actually helped him in the final fight! So Ellone must have been doing
it for some other reason, and I like your suggestion as a motivation.
So why the heck didn't she *say* something during the game? Grumble
grumble.
-- Jen H.
neo_zo...@hotmail.com
Sean Daugherty <sean.da...@oberlin.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:32:49 GMT, neo_zo...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >The game was very well paced, with dramatic events well-spaced
> >throughout. The relationships were also well developed.
>
> I can't agree. I suppose the relationship angle is somewhat arbitrary,
> but the game is, quite simply, poorly paced. It relies on exposition
> at least as much as FF7, and, unlike in FF7, a good number of the
> revelations in these expository passage don't click with a large
> segment of the audience (the GF amnesia mess, for instance). Rinoa's
> gaining Edea's powers is treated almost as an afterthought and not as
> the important plot twist it really is.
>
> Meanwhile, the game focuses rather excessively on minutae. In the
> small touches, its brilliant. The whole cafeteria hot dog joke was
> entertaining, and a lot of the foreshadowing in the Laguna sequences
> was brilliant. But when it comes to the earth-shattering, colossal
> revelations, the game is surprisingly bad at both leading into and
> following up upon them.
I agree that the revelations didn't have the fanfare surrounding them
that they did in other titles. Still, I thought Rinoa's discovery of
her powers was handled pretty well, with her fear of what would become
of her, Squall actually comforting her, and so on. I think the biggest
problem was the VERY sudden 180 after Edea's defeat.
> My inclination is to believe the game was initially concieved with the
> emphasis almost solely on the interpersonal aspects: Rinoa and
> Squall's relationship. These characterizational aspect are
> well-handled, but the overall story is downright painful. In that
> respect, I find it very similar to Final Fantasy VI, only worse.
That's a bit extreme. FF6's plot stopped halfway through. FF8 merely
took a poorley foreshadowed 180 turn.
> >With Rinoa
> >constantly in Squall's face, it makes sense that her sudden absence
> >would make his life seem that much more empty without her. Once he
> >realized how much he needed her, the rest of it made perfect sense.
>
> True, but it doesn't make either of them likable. It makes Rinoa seem
> pushy and annoying, and it makes Squall seem completely overwhelmed
> throughout the entire story. And unlike Squall, or Celes, or Terra, or
> even Cecil, he remains overwhelmed by his situation throughout the
> entire scope of the story. Which makes him an uncompelling focal point
> for the narrative.
Well, I didn't think so at all. I guess the problem with making the
characters more human, is that you either like or dislike them as you
would actual people.
> Is Squall well-characterized? In the technical sense, yes. We know
> what and why he is thinking, and we have a solid grasp of the kind of
> person he is. Unfortunately, that person is, to put it bluntly, a
> jerk. I could live with this understanding if the game didn't place
> such a heavy emphasis on pathos: we're supposed to be drawn in by his
> relationship with Rinoa. Where it utterly fails for me, however, is
> the game never bothers to reverse my comprehension of Squall as a
> jerk, so I can't care about him, or his relationship, at least in the
> sense I believe the developers wanted.
Odd, since you know why he's a jerk starting about halfway through disc
1, and he stopped really being a jerk once the crisis with Rinoa
started. If they hadn't shown us what was in his head, I'd agree, but
knowing what he's thinking made it hard for me to dislike him based on
his exterior.
Orlando
>
>
> It doesn't take much to deduce that when Ellone was moved to Edea's
> orphanage, Raine's baby -- fathered by Laguna -- was taken there too.
> And Squall and Ellone's attachment was notably closer than that of any
> of the other kids to Ellone, even though she big-sistered all of them.
I forgot all about Squall calling Ellone 'sis'. That does make sense.
> Now, given that all of Squall's group were the same age, and that the
> gender of Raine's baby was never mentioned, this isn't *proven.* For
> all we know, it could be Selphie Loire, or Quistis Loire, or Irvine
> Loire, or Zell Loire. (Actually, Irvine's tempermentally a lot like
> Laguna, if you believe such things are inherited...)
>
Yeah, Irvine and Laguna are very alike. More than in looks though. Their
attitudes are a bit similar, and both love guns. But, then again,
Squall's attitude is almost the same as Laguna's too..
>
> I'll confess to being more than a little disappointed that there
> wasn't some recognition on *Laguna's* part when he and Squall finally
> met face to face. There's no reason for Squall to suspect his
Or when Laguna met Rinoa. You'd figure he'd be a bit more excited when
he met the daughter of a woman he once loved. This is a very
dissapointing part of the game.. Some plot bits are left untouched and
unanswered. When the team *finally* met Laguna and Co. they didn't say
anything. Squall was like "what's my mission?". Not even Selphie was
excited! That was a real dissapointment. I expected them to go nuts when
they finally met. But nothing... anyways, thanks for clearing it up :)
Runestar
Not even Selphie was
> excited! That was a real dissapointment. I expected them to go nuts when
> they finally met. But nothing... anyways, thanks for clearing it up :)
>
> -Orlando
Selphie doesn't say *anything* about finally meeting the guy she dedicated a
shrine to?!? Arrgh! That totally bites! *wanders off muttering about getting
more Ruby Dragon cards*
Runey
Orlando
She says, "Wow, it's the real Sir Laguna." That's it. Not even an
exclamation point. Argh.
Orlando
>
> <snippo>
>
Another thing i remembered was that, in the Shumi Village quest, you
learn that Laguna was trying to teach a Moomba how to speak, something
they couldn't normally do, while he spent time in Shumi. He pulled it
off and managed to teach the Moomba a few words, most notably "Laguna".
While in the prison, Squall and Co. run into a Moomba, and that moomba
calls Squall "Laguna". Moombas can only recognize people by their blood,
therefore this means that Squall and Laguna are related, which can only
mean that Laguna is Squall's father. And the Moomba didn't recognize
Rinoa, so they can't be siblings! woo! Don't you just love how Square
throws these little details around in a plot? ;P
Orlando
>
> I forget, did the party make mention that wow, they saw Rinoa's mother
> in the dreamland? Was Rinoa allowed to see the dream?
No they didn't.. yet another thing that doesn't make sense.. damn you
square! and no, she didn't see it, cause only people who Ellone knows
can be sent to the past.. Rinoa had no connection with her, so Ellone
could not send her.
Sean Daugherty
>Odd, since you know why he's a jerk starting about halfway through disc
>1, and he stopped really being a jerk once the crisis with Rinoa
>started. If they hadn't shown us what was in his head, I'd agree, but
>knowing what he's thinking made it hard for me to dislike him based on
>his exterior.
Y'see, I had a good understanding of why Squall would act as he did,
but it went deeper than that. Once we understood him, IMO, he did very
little to *change*. And that's why I dislike him. Even when he enters
into a relationship with Rinoa, he's still the asocial,
not-cut-out-for-leadership individual he was earlier. Plus, he gets
even more selfish out of the blindness of his love for Rinoa. I don't
find that touching, I find it annoying. Squall is quite possibly the
least appealing main character in any FF I've played for the simple
reason that he starts of as a jerk, and stays a jerk throughout. Sure,
we know why, and he can't be called a cardboard character because of
that, but the only thing significant that seems to change is in the
manifestation.
Malkere
Orlando <orla...@ERASEMEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37F52C...@ERASEMEyahoo.com...
> Orlando wrote:
> >
> > <snippo>
> >
>
> Another thing i remembered was that, in the Shumi Village quest, you
> learn that Laguna was trying to teach a Moomba how to speak, something
> they couldn't normally do, while he spent time in Shumi. He pulled it
> off and managed to teach the Moomba a few words, most notably "Laguna".
> While in the prison, Squall and Co. run into a Moomba, and that moomba
> calls Squall "Laguna". Moombas can only recognize people by their blood,
> therefore this means that Squall and Laguna are related, which can only
> mean that Laguna is Squall's father. And the Moomba didn't recognize
> Rinoa, so they can't be siblings! woo! Don't you just love how Square
> throws these little details around in a plot? ;P
>
The tutorial states that the moombas recognize people by smelling/tasting
their blood. Rinioa was not bleeding at any moment during the prison part
m0no0...@orst.edu
Jennifer Hawthorne
<orla...@ERASEMEyahoo.com> wrote:
>> (Actually, Irvine's tempermentally a lot like
>> Laguna, if you believe such things are inherited...)
>>
>
>Yeah, Irvine and Laguna are very alike. More than in looks though. Their
>attitudes are a bit similar, and both love guns. But, then again,
>Squall's attitude is almost the same as Laguna's too..
>
Eh? I was thinking that they were just about as opposite as two people
could get in temperament/attitude. Why do you say they're the same?
-- Jen H.
Arbane the Terrible
<mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Here's something sick, but not impossible...
>
>Squall and Rinoa are half-brother-and-sister, both fathered by Laguna.
>
>Laguna was alone with Julia, who had the hots for him. When he left for war,
>she was pregnant but didn't know it. Enter, Col. Calaway, who took
>resposibility for Julia, which would account for Rinoa's hatred for her
>'father' and her keeping her mother's name and not her 'father's'.
>
>If that's the case... EEEEWWWWW!!!!!
Thankfully, I don't think so. I seem to recall someone saying Rinoa
was born a _year_ after Julia got married.
Malkere
Arbane the Terrible <arb...@soho.ios.com> wrote in message
news:37f6c3a7...@news.idt.net...
Actually she married a year after last seeing laguna, it doesn't say how
long after Rinoa was born.
Orlando
Yeah, you're right.. but still, i really doubt they were related..
that's just too weird..
Jin Zhao Yang
Another hint in the game suggesting Laguna is Squall's father is
when(disc3) Laguna arrives on the space ship, if you talk to Kiro and
Ward in the conference room, Kiro would remark how much Squall is like
his mother...
Just how does he know who Squall's mother is? hmmm....
Orlando (orla...@ERASEMEyahoo.com) wrote:
: Orlando wrote:
: >
: > <snippo>
: >
:
: Another thing i remembered was that, in the Shumi Village quest, you
: learn that Laguna was trying to teach a Moomba how to speak, something
: they couldn't normally do, while he spent time in Shumi. He pulled it
: off and managed to teach the Moomba a few words, most notably "Laguna".
: While in the prison, Squall and Co. run into a Moomba, and that moomba
: calls Squall "Laguna". Moombas can only recognize people by their blood,
: therefore this means that Squall and Laguna are related, which can only
: mean that Laguna is Squall's father. And the Moomba didn't recognize
: Rinoa, so they can't be siblings! woo! Don't you just love how Square
: throws these little details around in a plot? ;P
:
: -Orlando
Buster Logan
orla...@ERASEMEyahoo.com wrote:
> Jennifer Hawthorne wrote:
> Yeah, Irvine and Laguna are very alike. More than in looks though.
> attitudes are a bit similar, and both love guns. But, then again,
> Squall's attitude is almost the same as Laguna's too..
One of the very first things I noticed about Laguna was that when he
casts spells, he uses the same motions that Squall makes.
--
http://animation.acmecity.com/model/347/main.html
Visit this page. It is full of great
--
http://animation.acmecity.com/model/347/main.html
Visit this page. It is full of great cartoon art!
Pook!
>
> Another hint in the game suggesting Laguna is Squall's father is
> when(disc3) Laguna arrives on the space ship, if you talk to Kiro and
> Ward in the conference room, Kiro would remark how much Squall is like
> his mother...
And yet another possible hint is that the ring Squall has, that Rinoa
wears a copy of, seems to be a copy of Laguna's ring. This is emphasized
by a tight close-up on Rinoa's necklace with the ring on it right after
the sequence at the end with Laguna and Raine. After all, in the worlds
of Charles Dickens, most modern movies, RPGs in general and Final
Fantasy games in particular, there wouldn't have been a sequence with
the rings at all and your attention brought to it again and again in the
plot if it wasn't a hint about something ;)
--Pook! ^_^
Jeremy Balsley
<neo_zo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7t0puv$pra$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <7t08uk$coq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
[SNIP}
>
> > > p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
> >
> > Me too, but that's just because Rinoa was written poorly. Quistis was
> > a much more mature and unassuming character, and I think most people
> > over the age of 12 relate better to that. Rinoa was just too cutesy
> > in that "you *have* to like me, everyone likes me!" kind of way.
> > Rinoa should have been a lot more like Tifa or Aerith - I think either
> > of those characters' personalities would have fit the love story
> > between Squall and Rinoa better.
> Not at all. A mature, reserved person would NEVER be able to draw
> another mature, reserved person out of their shell. Rinoa was EXACTLY
> what Squall needed.
That bodes poorly for me...I see a lot of similarities between Squall and I,
save for the fact that I am a bit better adjusted than Squall (the sound of
laughter you hear in the background is that of numerous Shrinks), and a lot
more self-confident.
Gee...ending up with Rinoa. Almost as bad as ending up with Selphie
("Woo-hoo!
We're flyin'!"). Can't I have an Aerith? Please? :)
>
> -ZFP
Jennifer Hawthorne
(Creator Failure) wrote:
>Another clue... [spoilers]
>
>.
>
>.
>
>.
>
>.
>
>.
>
>.
>
>.
>
>.
>
>When Laguna, Ward, and Kiros are in the Ragnarok, when you talk to
>Laguna after he goes over the plan to defeat Ultemecia he says "We
>have a lot to talk about after this is over". When you talk to Kiros
>he says "You look a lot like your mother", and when you talk to Ward
>he says "....." which Kiros interjects with "He says it's a good thing
>you don't look like your father".
>
GeeeYAAAAH! You mean Squall actually gets *told* this, and he doesn't
follow up on it *at all*? And Laguna obviously knows -- at what point
did he find out, and why didn't he do something? Geeze, he was sending
his only kid off to fight a battle which stood a good chance of
killing him and Laguna didn't take the chance to talk to him even a
little bit?
!@#$!! I wanted to *see* that, dammit.
Mucho displeased am I.
-- Jen H.
SquallXXLeonhrt
>did he find out, and why didn't he do something? Geeze, he was sending
>his only kid off to fight a battle which stood a good chance of
>killing him and Laguna didn't take the chance to talk to him even a
>little bit?
Yes he does know...he was most likely informed by Ellone when she came back to
Esthar, seeing as how she is the only one who would know where Squall came
from. Laguna also says on the Ragnarok that after it's all over he wants to
talk to Squall about a lot of things. Unfortunately they never included that
in the ending...but the kiss made me forget all that temporarily.
Laura M. Parkinson
blurted out:
>
>
>>>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
>>Me too..
>
>
>Nah...Selphie!
Nah, Irvine!
But then again, I'd be Rinoa, not Squall. Come to think of it, I
wouldn't mind just sticking with Squall, either. ;)
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
Jason Hatter
arro...@rahul.net proclaimed <7tg44r$2s2$1...@samba.rahul.net>:
>In Japanese you could use that for an unrelated person who you are
>close to.
You can do it here in the states too. And don't forget the phrase
"bro", either.
--
Jason
http://www.concentric.net/~towonder/
Sailor Moon V at http://www.concentric.net/~towonder/fanfic.shtml
Sith Lords should learn to stay away from wells.
Laura M. Parkinson
blurted out:
>
Which would be more than long enough for Julia to have to have the
child before she got married, rather than after. ;)
Anyhow, The ages would make it impossible as well. Squall and Julia
are both 17. Laguna last saw Julia how long before he met Raine?
Years? Long enough for Laguna to go off with his friends and get into
more trouble, then get split off from them, then end up in Winhill,
then eventually get to know and marry Raine. Even if Raine was
pregnant when they married, I'd say Rinoa would have to be at least 2
or 3 years older than Squall, not the same age.
Nice theory though, and in fact when I saw both Laguna and Rinoa, I
thought they looked a bit alike. :)
Neo Atma Weapon 3:16
Laura M. Parkinson <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:37fcfe2f...@news.mindspring.com...
> "robertgeiger" <robert...@prodigy.net> pondered for a while, then
> blurted out:
>
> >
> >
> >>>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
MTE.
> >>Me too..
> >
> >
> >Nah...Selphie!
Who's Selphie? Oh, is she that HORRIBLY undeveloped girl in yellow? (Well,
since I AM in AGFF, I better mention I don't mean physically underdeveloped,
I meant characterization wise. Stop masturbating, Funky.)
>
> Nah, Irvine!
>
> But then again, I'd be Rinoa, not Squall. Come to think of it, I
> wouldn't mind just sticking with Squall, either. ;)
>
Heh, the girls got fucked over in FFVIII for a decent male character.
Squall is Cloud (who everyone hates) with normal hair. Irvine is a
womanizer. Someone shoot Zell. Please. Seifer was just a jackass. And so
on...
p.s. If I were Square, I'd have made FFVIII's sad, pathetic, shitty,
rotten, horrible, fucked up, sorry excuse of a love story one that was
halfway decent. Like Xenogears'.
Funk
>
> Laura M. Parkinson <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:37fcfe2f...@news.mindspring.com...
> > "robertgeiger" <robert...@prodigy.net> pondered for a while, then
> > blurted out:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >>>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
>
> MTE.
>
> > >>Me too..
> > >
> > >
> > >Nah...Selphie!
>
> Who's Selphie? Oh, is she that HORRIBLY undeveloped girl in yellow? (Well,
> since I AM in AGFF, I better mention I don't mean physically underdeveloped,
> I meant characterization wise. Stop masturbating, Funky.)
Selphie's an ugly ho. And I don't masturbate to pixels or polygons, like
some people here...
>
> >
> > Nah, Irvine!
> >
> > But then again, I'd be Rinoa, not Squall. Come to think of it, I
> > wouldn't mind just sticking with Squall, either. ;)
> >
>
> Heh, the girls got fucked over in FFVIII for a decent male character.
> Squall is Cloud (who everyone hates) with normal hair. Irvine is a
> womanizer. Someone shoot Zell. Please. Seifer was just a jackass. And so
> on...
>
MTE.
> p.s. If I were Square, I'd have made FFVIII's sad, pathetic, shitty,
> rotten, horrible, fucked up, sorry excuse of a love story one that was
> halfway decent. Like Xenogears'.
Less text, though. Right? *gasps*
--
Funk
----------
Trepie #69
-quoth-
"Let's face it, if modern civilization were to end right now,
future archeologists will be finding more messages by an ancient
called "Greg Cook" than any other human being in the 20th century."
-Edwyn-
"Thank you muchly. The more time I spend here, the more your
quote makes sense."
-Norom, about the previous quote-
Neo Atma Weapon 3:16
Funk <exo_fun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38010A...@yahoo.com...
> Neo Atma Weapon 3:16 wrote:
> >
> > Laura M. Parkinson <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > news:37fcfe2f...@news.mindspring.com...
> > > "robertgeiger" <robert...@prodigy.net> pondered for a while, then
> > > blurted out:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>p.s. if I were Squall, I'll pick Quistis.
> >
> > MTE.
> >
> > > >>Me too..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Nah...Selphie!
> >
> > Who's Selphie? Oh, is she that HORRIBLY undeveloped girl in yellow?
(Well,
> > since I AM in AGFF, I better mention I don't mean physically
underdeveloped,
> > I meant characterization wise. Stop masturbating, Funky.)
>
> Selphie's an ugly ho. And I don't masturbate to pixels or polygons, like
> some people here...
>
Heh, I never saw Selphie enough to know if she was an ugly ho. I NEVER used
Selphie. My party of choice was always Irvine, Squall, and Quistis.
Quistis' degenerator is the best thing in the game for leveling up. Go in
with the recovery and revive abilities on the other 2, always keep the other
two at high hp and Quistis just barely alive. That way she'll limit break
often, and you can go through the island closest to hell like nothin'...
Unfortunately, once you're lvl 100, Omega Weapon is a fuckhead... So...
much.... hp....
> >
> > >
> > > Nah, Irvine!
> > >
> > > But then again, I'd be Rinoa, not Squall. Come to think of it, I
> > > wouldn't mind just sticking with Squall, either. ;)
> > >
> >
> > Heh, the girls got fucked over in FFVIII for a decent male character.
> > Squall is Cloud (who everyone hates) with normal hair. Irvine is a
> > womanizer. Someone shoot Zell. Please. Seifer was just a jackass.
And so
> > on...
> >
>
> MTE.
>
> > p.s. If I were Square, I'd have made FFVIII's sad, pathetic, shitty,
> > rotten, horrible, fucked up, sorry excuse of a love story one that was
> > halfway decent. Like Xenogears'.
>
> Less text, though. Right? *gasps*
>
While Xenogears did have WAY too much text and flashbacks, it had, IMO, the
best storyline, plot twists, and love story in any game I've ever seen.
Overall, it ran circles around the best of the Final Fantasy series.
H.P. Ford
<dont...@notgonnagettheemail.com> wrote:
>While Xenogears did have WAY too much text and flashbacks, it had, IMO, the
>best storyline, plot twists, and love story in any game I've ever seen.
>Overall, it ran circles around the best of the Final Fantasy series.
>
Except for Seven, which did the same thing -- without the boring
parts.
Neo Atma Weapon 3:16
H.P. Ford <sain...@superhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:WSUBOObpgytdba...@4ax.com...
You found Cloud's past interesting? Gimmie some of the drugs you're on,
damnit.
Funk
I don't use Selphie either, but in the times I HAD to use her, (Dollet;
Galbadia Missle Base) I noticed she looked a lot like Blossom(Malik
Blamik, or something in real life). She didn't even have the witty
sarcasm that Blossom had, though. Selphie is shit. Cait Shit and Selphie
go hand in hand in my book.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Nah, Irvine!
> > > >
> > > > But then again, I'd be Rinoa, not Squall. Come to think of it, I
> > > > wouldn't mind just sticking with Squall, either. ;)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Heh, the girls got fucked over in FFVIII for a decent male character.
> > > Squall is Cloud (who everyone hates) with normal hair. Irvine is a
> > > womanizer. Someone shoot Zell. Please. Seifer was just a jackass.
> And so
> > > on...
> > >
> >
> > MTE.
> >
> > > p.s. If I were Square, I'd have made FFVIII's sad, pathetic, shitty,
> > > rotten, horrible, fucked up, sorry excuse of a love story one that was
> > > halfway decent. Like Xenogears'.
> >
> > Less text, though. Right? *gasps*
> >
>
> While Xenogears did have WAY too much text and flashbacks, it had, IMO, the
> best storyline, plot twists, and love story in any game I've ever seen.
> Overall, it ran circles around the best of the Final Fantasy series.
Yessir, that's about MTE.
Funk
>
> > <dont...@notgonnagettheemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >While Xenogears did have WAY too much text and flashbacks, it had, IMO,
> the
> > >best storyline, plot twists, and love story in any game I've ever seen.
> > >Overall, it ran circles around the best of the Final Fantasy series.
> > >
> > parts.
>
> You found Cloud's past interesting? Gimmie some of the drugs you're on,
> damnit.
Now, now. We don't wanna have delusions of grandeur like Cloud, do we?
You don't want none of THEM drugs....
Mr. Coffee!
>Heh, the girls got fucked over in FFVIII for a decent male character.
>Squall is Cloud (who everyone hates) with normal hair. Irvine is a
>womanizer. Someone shoot Zell. Please. Seifer was just a jackass. And so
>on...
You kinda remind me of Seifer.
--
Jason, AGFF's Mr. Coffee!
AIM: CoffeeSage ยท ICQ: 20379792