Are Japanese Final Fantasy games translations really legitimate?
Neal Wilson
> I want to know how you think regarding the translations of the Japanese Final
> Fantasy games. Are the translations any good, is it it inaccurate? Here is my
> opinion on the Final Fantasy translations:
>
> I believe the translators did a incomplete and inaccurate job translationg
> the Final Fantasy games from Japanese to English. For instance my brother
> days ago downloaded the Japanese version of Final Fantasy V, translated and
> without using a patch file. The problem with this game is that some of the
> dialogue is untranslated, by the translator put in "(fill in latter)" on
> parts which he did not translate. Another problem is that the translation is
> inaccurate and has an American bias.
>
> When I think of a translation, it should be free of bias from the translator,
> and be accurate. However the translator for Final Fantasy V, uses Americanisms
> that by reading the characters' dialogue, it looks like an American adoptation
> of the game, instead of a translation of it.
>
> If this game is decently translated, it should be free from the translator's
> biases and the dialogue fully translated. I can also say for the translation
> for Final Fantasy IV.
>
> This is my opinions on the Final Fantasy translations, and you are free to
> agree and disagree with me.
>
Well, you do have some good points, however, the Square translations of
the games are not any better and some would say are worse with the
complaints you adress. Personally, I'm not so much of a purist when it
comes to video games so if I really really want to have the original text,
I'll sit down with a ROM and a dictionary, write it down for self
reference, and have a script translation poorly formated for myself (I
actually tried this with Final Fantasy 2, but I never got very far what
with lack of stamina and what not). Anyways, the people doing these
unofficial ROM translations aren't getting paid for the effort and are
also walking a thin legal line should Square take notice and so I think
that the job they are doing is wonderful and I wish I could see that level
of competance over at Square LA.
Neal Wilson The Console RPG Info Place
Official AGFF Keeper of the Laws http://www.execpc.com/~wilcafe/rpg
Defender of Ruby Weapon ICQ #5481414
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Leader (as suggested by Rob): Okay-Hentai -
a group that doesn't care if there's hentai here or not.
Neal Wilson has 4 Fulgy points
and 10 Wyvern points.
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Zach Keene
>
> I believe the translators did a incomplete and inaccurate job translationg
> the Final Fantasy games from Japanese to English. For instance my brother
> days ago downloaded the Japanese version of Final Fantasy V, translated and
> without using a patch file.
Then you got screwed. The RPGe patch is a complete translation; entire
"translated" roms may or may not be.
Zach Keene
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Author of the FF1 Walkthrough...
- ftp://members.aol.com/fnlfanatic/games/square/ff1faq31.txt
- ftp://members.aol.com/fnlfanatic/games/square/ff1faq31.hlp
...and the Einhander FAQ
- ftp://members.aol.com/fnlfanatic/games/square/einfaq07.txt
Frioniel
>Fantasy games.
Seek and you shall find...
>Are the translations any good,
Exceptional...much better than anything Square could/would pull off..
> is it it inaccurate?
Some minor things that I can fix with ROM hacking...
>Here is my
>opinion on the Final Fantasy translations:
Here ARE. Now that that's cleared up, continue..
>I believe the translators did a incomplete and inaccurate job translationg
>the Final Fantasy games from Japanese to English.
Square's translators did. Nintendo's translators did. The Internet's
translators did not...read on, cricket (he hates grasshoppers).
>For instance my brother
>days ago downloaded the Japanese version of Final Fantasy V, translated and
>without using a patch file.
Way to go brother of poster then!
>The problem with this game is that some of the
>dialogue is untranslated, by the translator put in "(fill in latter)" on
>parts which he did not translate.
Then you have a VERY old translation. The full 100% complete version is at:
>Another problem is that the translation is
>inaccurate and has an American bias.
Ummm...what?
>When I think of a translation, it should be free of bias from the translator,
>and be accurate.
So you ARE an annoying traditionalist...oh crap, here we go again...
>However the translator for Final Fantasy V, uses Americanisms
>that by reading the characters' dialogue, it looks like an American
>adoptation
>of the game, instead of a translation of it.
>
It is called "Americanizing" a game so that it makes sense to us. It is still
a translation, just put in a more American context.
>If this game is decently translated, it should be free from the translator's
>biases
How is using Americanisms biased?
>and the dialogue fully translated. I can also say for the translation
>for Final Fantasy IV.
The dialouge IS fully translated. If you want to bitch and moan about
untranslated dialouge and biases and censoring, go whine to Square and
Nintendo. Also, Final Fantasy IV is the BEST of the Final Fantasy translations
(though only second best in story) and it's because of they translated the
dialouge FULLY (albeit some Americanisms were out of place).
>This is my opinions on the Final Fantasy translations, and you are free to
>agree and disagree with me.
"These are" is correct. Hows that for a translation for you? Yes, I'm being
rude but it is because you are spouting balogna-like jibberish...oh and I
whole-heartedly disagree with you.
Oh and in every single line in this post, there is an invisible (IMO) tacked
on. I in no way wish to imply that my OPINIONS are fact.
-------------------------------------------------
Frioniel -- Discoverer of Fin and
Hero of Final Fantasy II
-------------------------------------------------
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> It is called "Americanizing" a game so that it makes sense to us. It is still
> a translation, just put in a more American context.
And, unlike an officially sanctioned translation, extremely
inapproriate. When Square and Nintendo release a crappy translation, at
least it has the benefit of the implied approval of the designers of the
game, *and* they get paid for it.
When an fan translator, however, starts exercising editorial decision on
a work, it's deplorable. The creators, of course, have no say to begin
with, and in some cases may not want their games released here at all.
But saying that breaking one implied decision excuses all is idiotic.
How would you like it if I rewrote your Final Fantasy Story fanfic
because I felt I could do better, without getting your approval, then
started spreading it around? No matter how good it was, it wouldn't be
your work, and people could very well get the entirely wrong idea about
your purpose.
Don't get me wrong: I don't *like* when commercial business change the
original, either, but at least that has the implicit support of the
makers. Fan translations, OTOH, carry with them a degree of moral
shakiness, no matter how true to the original they are. Though I can
forgive that, and I understand that some changes must be made simply
because of the language difference, I cannot forgive second-guessing the
intent of the original. J2e's FF4 translation disgusted me no end in
this regard, and, of course, was not helped by the Working Designs-style
one liners which utterly ruined the mood (particularly the William
Shatner one). All, of course, IMO.
--
Sean Daugherty, Discoverer (sean...@erols.com) ~ (AIM: HeiwaIkari)
Co-maintainer of the AGFF Webpage: http://www.netins.net/showcase/gog
"From now on, please don't think of us as the company that
always delays their games. Think of us as the company that
tends to inaccurately estimate their release dates."
- From the Working Designs Webpage
Frioniel
Connery...err...Daughtery. Stubborn as a mule...
>And, unlike an officially sanctioned translation, extremely
>inapproriate. When Square and Nintendo release a crappy translation, at
>least it has the benefit of the implied approval of the designers of the
>game, *and* they get paid for it.
How so (Yes, I can play your little, start an argument with a question trick,
too, Sean)? They hand it to Squaresoft or Nintendo or whoever and let them do
what they want with it. They don't go and say, "Mr. Designer, could we censor
THIS word, with THIS word? Oh, can we completely leave out this entire page or
so of characterization?" Any designer would say, "Hell no!" but that wasn't
the case.
>When an fan translator, however, starts exercising editorial decision on
>a work, it's deplorable. The creators, of course, have no say to begin
>with, and in some cases may not want their games released here at all.
Well that's just tough. WE want them here. The customer is always right...
;-)
>But saying that breaking one implied decision excuses all is idiotic.
I still have no idea what you mean when you refer to all of these "implied
decisions"...
>
>How would you like it if I rewrote your Final Fantasy Story fanfic
>because I felt I could do better,
Go ahead. I don't like it. I'm rewriting it. If someone can rewrite it
better, then great.
>without getting your approval, then
>started spreading it around?
I'm not that special...I don't really care.
>No matter how good it was, it wouldn't be
>your work, and people could very well get the entirely wrong idea about
>your purpose.
True. I see your point but I am writing my fanfic about Final Fantasy story
FOR Americans...whereas FF2, 3, 4, and 5 were being ported from Japan.
Japanese culture and US culture don't mix...so no matter how good the original
is, no one would understand it and fully appreciate it.
>Don't get me wrong: I don't *like* when commercial business change the
>original, either, but at least that has the implicit support of the
>makers.
Like I said, not really. The designers already made their money. If they
really had to give their support to the American Translators, we wouldn't have
ended up with FF2US...
>Fan translations, OTOH, carry with them a degree of moral
>shakiness, no matter how true to the original they are. Though I can
>forgive that, and I understand that some changes must be made simply
>because of the language difference, I cannot forgive second-guessing the
>intent of the original.
Luke is right...you are too much of a traditionalist. However, the second
guessing thing is true.
>J2e's FF4 translation disgusted me no end in
>this regard, and, of course, was not helped by the Working Designs-style
>one liners which utterly ruined the mood (particularly the William
>Shatner one).
Why was the William Shatner line second guessing the intent of the original? I
myself didn't like the line simply because no one in the world of Final Fantasy
IV should have any idea who William Shatner is. However, the intent was the
same in both versions. In J2E, although phrased poorly, the intent was to show
that Palom and Porom could see right through Baigan's lies. That is the same
for the Japanese versions. In both, the twins knew that Baigan had just fed
them a load of bull. I disagree with the actuall wording, but the meaning was
the same.
>All, of course, IMO
But of course...
^_^ (Can't we all just get along?)
{NO! GRRR!!!}
(Shut up...)
{Awww....}
Ismail 'Slipgate' Saeed
>
> I want to know how you think regarding the translations of the Japanese Final
> opinion on the Final Fantasy translations:
>
> days ago downloaded the Japanese version of Final Fantasy V, translated and
> dialogue is untranslated, by the translator put in "(fill in latter)" on
> inaccurate and has an American bias.
>
> that by reading the characters' dialogue, it looks like an American adoptation
> of the game, instead of a translation of it.
>
> for Final Fantasy IV.
>
> agree and disagree with me.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
A lot of translations are in progress, so you can't criticize them that
easily. Anyways, FF5 is completely translated, go to
http://rpge.home.ml.org and get THAT patch. If you find it a bit
Americanish, its because the game is in your opinion, not the
translation, because that particular translation is rather neutral.
Slipgate
Ismail 'Slipgate' Saeed
>
> >I want to know how you think regarding the translations of the Japanese Final
> >Fantasy games.
>
>
>
>
> > is it it inaccurate?
>
> Some minor things that I can fix with ROM hacking...
>
> >opinion on the Final Fantasy translations:
>
>
> >the Final Fantasy games from Japanese to English.
>
> translators did not...read on, cricket (he hates grasshoppers).
>
> >days ago downloaded the Japanese version of Final Fantasy V, translated and
> >without using a patch file.
>
>
> >dialogue is untranslated, by the translator put in "(fill in latter)" on
> >parts which he did not translate.
>
>
> http://rpge.home.ml.org/
>
> >inaccurate and has an American bias.
>
>
> >When I think of a translation, it should be free of bias from the translator,
> >and be accurate.
>
>
> >that by reading the characters' dialogue, it looks like an American
> >adoptation
> >of the game, instead of a translation of it.
> >
>
> a translation, just put in a more American context.
>
> >biases
>
>
> >for Final Fantasy IV.
>
> untranslated dialouge and biases and censoring, go whine to Square and
> Nintendo. Also, Final Fantasy IV is the BEST of the Final Fantasy translations
> (though only second best in story) and it's because of they translated the
> dialouge FULLY (albeit some Americanisms were out of place).
>
> >agree and disagree with me.
>
> rude but it is because you are spouting balogna-like jibberish...oh and I
> whole-heartedly disagree with you.
>
> Oh and in every single line in this post, there is an invisible (IMO) tacked
> on. I in no way wish to imply that my OPINIONS are fact.
>
> Frioniel -- Discoverer of Fin and
> Hero of Final Fantasy II
> -------------------------------------------------
What I don't get is that he hasn't played the game and read the Japanese
text (understanding it) to really necessarily know if FF5 is
"over-americanized compared to how it was."
Slipgate
Frioniel
>text (understanding it) to really necessarily know if FF5 is
>"over-americanized compared to how it was."
>
Hmm...yeah. Well he could had read Mark Rosa's script, which 007 seems to
worship, but that Mark-dude-wog's script made me want to throw up. The only
thing I liked was, "This kid says he saw a moogle. He's a lying
flubbernugget!" Other than that, the words Mu and Kururu sickened me. When I
saw the name Kururu, I thought of the Imp from FF6. So naturally, when I
played FFV on emulator and say Cara (Krile), I was completely taken aback! DIE
MARK ROSA! DIE!!!
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> How so (Yes, I can play your little, start an argument with a question trick,
> too, Sean)? They hand it to Squaresoft or Nintendo or whoever and let them do
> what they want with it. They don't go and say, "Mr. Designer, could we censor
> THIS word, with THIS word? Oh, can we completely leave out this entire page or
> so of characterization?" Any designer would say, "Hell no!" but that wasn't
> the case.
Nope, but the designer at least gets payment for their work, and by
allowing the translation to be done to begin with, at least implicity
support said translation. But RPGe does not have that support, so even
that thin layer of legitimacy is gone.
> Go ahead. I don't like it. I'm rewriting it. If someone can rewrite it
> better, then great.
What if mine was worse? Or, let's say it wasn't worse, but it wasn't
what you had intended (let's say I had a different and divergent view of
the game)? If your name was still on it, people reading it would
misunderstand your point of view. I somehow seriously doubt you'd enjoy
that.
> True. I see your point but I am writing my fanfic about Final Fantasy story
> FOR Americans...whereas FF2, 3, 4, and 5 were being ported from Japan.
> Japanese culture and US culture don't mix...so no matter how good the original
> is, no one would understand it and fully appreciate it.
Mm-hmm. And I've already accepted that some changes simply have to be
made to translate because there's no such thing as a literal
translation. But changing things on a whim and for no logical purpose
(Kururu/Krile to Cara, for instance). Of course things cannot be 100%
true to the original. The difference, of course, is between trying to
remain as close to the original as possible and needless editorial
changes, such as the one above.
> Like I said, not really. The designers already made their money. If they
> really had to give their support to the American Translators, we wouldn't have
> ended up with FF2US...
That's where you wrong. They make money from the English release, and
the game doesn't get released at all if the creators (in this sense
meaning the entire company) don't give their okay (as was the initial
case with, for example, Xenogears). They don't get to OK the finished
project in all cases, but they have the power to okay or to veto the
project in the first case; a power they don't have with fan translators.
> Luke is right...you are too much of a traditionalist. However, the second
> guessing thing is true.
If it was your work on the line, you'd see things differently. You say
you don't care what happens to your work, but, for example, how would
you like it if you wrote a Final Fantasy V fanfic which used the name
Krile, and I rewrote it to use the name Kururu, and kept *your* name on
it? What if someone wrote a FF7 fanfic suggesting Jenova controlled
Sephiroth and I rewrote it to suggest the opposite, keeping the original
author's name? If that's traditionalism, fine, I'm a traditionalist,
and, more than that, I'm damned proud to be so.
> Why was the William Shatner line second guessing the intent of the original? I
> myself didn't like the line simply because no one in the world of Final Fantasy
> IV should have any idea who William Shatner is. However, the intent was the
> same in both versions. In J2E, although phrased poorly, the intent was to show
> that Palom and Porom could see right through Baigan's lies. That is the same
> for the Japanese versions. In both, the twins knew that Baigan had just fed
> them a load of bull. I disagree with the actuall wording, but the meaning was
> the same.
It's not second guessing the intent in this case: It's assuming that
they could do better. The William Shatner line is a prime example that
this is not always the case. In some cases, yes, they *may* no better,
but it is inevitably a issue of personal preference, and changing the
original line gives the wrong impression about the creators.
I find it disturbing how little respect you have for the people who've
put their effort into these games. You either like the work or you
don't, but, fan translators even more than commercial businesses, you
have no right to "improve" the original. Sink or swim, the original
stands as it is, and the only people whose business that is are the
people who've created the game.
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> Hmm...yeah. Well he could had read Mark Rosa's script, which 007 seems to
> worship, but that Mark-dude-wog's script made me want to throw up. The only
> thing I liked was, "This kid says he saw a moogle. He's a lying
> flubbernugget!" Other than that, the words Mu and Kururu sickened me. When I
> saw the name Kururu, I thought of the Imp from FF6. So naturally, when I
> played FFV on emulator and say Cara (Krile), I was completely taken aback! DIE
> MARK ROSA! DIE!!!
Then, basically, you dislike the script to Final Fantasy V. Your
prerogative, but Mark Rosa clearly stated his intent was to keep the
translation true to the original: He decided against "spicing up" the
dialogue of the original in favor of as close to literal a translation
as possible. If you have a problem with the script, blame Square, not
Mark Rosa. And it still doesn't excuse altering the original any more
than my not liking your FF1 fanfic excuses me completely rewriting it.
Sean Daugherty
'Slipgate' Saeed <slip...@planetquake.com>, was heard saying:
> A lot of translations are in progress, so you can't criticize them that
> easily. Anyways, FF5 is completely translated, go to
> http://rpge.home.ml.org and get THAT patch. If you find it a bit
> Americanish, its because the game is in your opinion, not the
> translation, because that particular translation is rather neutral.
Yeah, the Final Fantasy V translation is probably the closest to the
original game of any fan translations (thanks to, in Frioniel's words,
raging "traditionalist" SoM2Freak), and most all of the changes are
relatively minor (if annoying, particularly changing Kururu/Krile to
Cara). I don't have much of a problem with it, whereas J2e's FF4
translation grates on me immensely: I *almost* prefer the original FF2US
script...
Frioniel
>translation grates on me immensely: I *almost* prefer the original FF2US
>script...
Frioniel: Surely you jest?
Sean: No, and my name's not Shirley...
Frioniel: 0_o
Frioniel
>Then, basically, you dislike the script to Final Fantasy V. Your
>prerogative, but Mark Rosa clearly stated his intent was to keep the
>translation true to the original: He decided against "spicing up" the
>dialogue of the original in favor of as close to literal a translation
>as possible. If you have a problem with the script, blame Square, not
>Mark Rosa. And it still doesn't excuse altering the original any more
>than my not liking your FF1 fanfic excuses me completely rewriting it.
>
Well duh, Sean. Remember, I already said I didn't like Final Fantasy V's story
that much. It seemed for too childish. As for my FF1 fanfic, that itself is
changing the original game that Squaresoft created.
Frioniel
>allowing the translation to be done to begin with, at least implicity
>support said translation. But RPGe does not have that support, so even
>that thin layer of legitimacy is gone.
>
Well gee, if I was going to make tons more money by letting some crackpots
slaughter my game, I'd say go for it, too. Who wouldn't?
>What if mine was worse? Or, let's say it wasn't worse, but it wasn't
>what you had intended (let's say I had a different and divergent view of
>the game)? If your name was still on it, people reading it would
>misunderstand your point of view. I somehow seriously doubt you'd enjoy
>that.
Well no, but that is why the translation groups put their name in the game.
Well, partly for personal glory, but also to show that this is THEIR version of
Square's game. Just like FF1. It says SQUARE 1987. Then Nintendo 1990. The
FFx team replaces Nintendo with FFx Team 1998. I replaced Nintendo with
Frioniel 1998. That way no one will say Nintendo did a crappy job on it. They
can blame us!
>Mm-hmm. And I've already accepted that some changes simply have to be
>made to translate because there's no such thing as a literal
>translation. But changing things on a whim and for no logical purpose
>(Kururu/Krile to Cara, for instance)
Well I'll agree with you there. However, Kururu wouldn't fit, and they might
not have known about Krile. Not many people here did until Marketing pointed
out.
>Of course things cannot be 100%
>true to the original. The difference, of course, is between trying to
>remain as close to the original as possible and needless editorial
>changes, such as the one above.
I semi-sorta agree with you. The feeling and meaning of the game should remain
true to the original, but I don't see any difference in meaning between the two
following statements:
2US
Porom: Can't you act any better than that?
J2E
Porom: I think Willaim Shatner is more convincing that this guy.
They both have the same basic idea: that the twins can see right through
Baigan's lies. I don't agree with the Willaim Shatner thing, but still, it
didn't change the intention of the desiger...it just phrased it differently.
>That's where you wrong. They make money from the English release, and
>the game doesn't get released at all if the creators (in this sense
>meaning the entire company) don't give their okay (as was the initial
>case with, for example, Xenogears). They don't get to OK the finished
>project in all cases, but they have the power to okay or to veto the
>project in the first case; a power they don't have with fan translators.
Again, why would anyone really say no? Well I've already made the game. If I
let these losers translate and slaughter my game, I'll still get tons of moola
and won't have to lift a finger. Naw...I don't think I want to do that. Yeah
right...
>If it was your work on the line, you'd see things differently. You say
>you don't care what happens to your work, but, for example, how would
>you like it if you wrote a Final Fantasy V fanfic which used the name
>Krile, and I rewrote it to use the name Kururu, and kept *your* name on
>it? What if someone wrote a FF7 fanfic suggesting Jenova controlled
>Sephiroth and I rewrote it to suggest the opposite, keeping the original
>author's name? If that's traditionalism, fine, I'm a traditionalist,
>and, more than that, I'm damned proud to be so.
Yes but these translators aren't keeping the original translators name on it.
They keep Square's name there because Square made the game. Then they list
themselves as the translators because that is what they did: they translated
the game. If J2E had put:
Final Fantasy IV
1998 J2E Translations
I would have been t-ed off because J2E didn't make the game, they just
translated it. However, it still reads:
Final Fantasy IV
1991 Square (or whatever year it was)
So they DO acknowledge that they are modifying the original work but they also
give credit to the original creators.
>It's not second guessing the intent in this case: It's assuming that
>they could do better. The William Shatner line is a prime example that
>this is not always the case. In some cases, yes, they *may* no better,
>but it is inevitably a issue of personal preference, and changing the
>original line gives the wrong impression about the creators.
Well I was hardly thinking, "Gosh, that Makino Hoshita (made up name)? What
was he thinking?" I thought, "Eww...J2E screwed that line up..."
>I find it disturbing how little respect you have for the people who've
>put their effort into these games
Unless it's Nobuo, Amano, or Sakaguchi, you are right. They didn't change the
music, they didn't screw up Amano's artwork (since it wasn't really implement
into the games; it was to good to be portrayed on an NES or SNES). They didn't
mess with the game mechanics. They just changed the dialouge from Japanese to
English. They don't care either. They get paid big bucks to do this stuff;
most could care less about the game after they get their money.
>You either like the work or you
>don't, but, fan translators even more than commercial businesses, you
>have no right to "improve" the original.
Fan translators don't get jack from their work except maybe flames from people
like you, 007. That didn't come out right, because I do like you Sean, but
these people are putting hard work into their translations that Square and
Nintendo didn't bother to. They aren't asking for money; they do it because
they love the games.
>Sink or swim, the original
>stands as it is, and the only people whose business that is are the
>people who've created the game.
>
I agree, but we don't have an original FF2, 3, 4, or 5. That is why I'm kind
of "iffy" about my FF1 hack. I don't like just taking Nintendo's work,
changing a few things, and saying, "There, this is mine. I did this." That
was the reason I wanted to simply translate the original Japanese game, no
matter how impractical or foolish it sounded.
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> Well duh, Sean. Remember, I already said I didn't like Final Fantasy V's story
> that much. It seemed for too childish.
Mm-hmm. But you still haven't explained why your not liking the script
excuses changing it.
> As for my FF1 fanfic, that itself is
> changing the original game that Squaresoft created.
No, it isn't, because it's not changing the game. It's an extrapolation
of the story, and, admittedly, like all fanfics, isn't entirely morally
justified (not that I'm condemning fanfics, as I've written them
myself), but the original work remains intact. Fan translators of J2e's
ilk alter that.
Frioniel
>No, it isn't, because it's not changing the game. It's an extrapolation
>of the story, and, admittedly, like all fanfics, isn't entirely morally
>justified (not that I'm condemning fanfics, as I've written them
>myself), but the original work remains intact. Fan translators of J2e's
>ilk alter that.
Well you know Sean, I AM hacking FF1 as well as writing my Fanfic about it.
Also, when writing my fanfic, I'm using original Final Fantasy materials to get
into the feel. I'm trying to recreate the mystical sense of wonder that I felt
when I played it six years ago. I remember, the bathtub was filled with cold
water and I touched it and thought, "Is this what the water in Coneria's
fountain feels like?" That's what I'm trying to create with my fanfic. That's
also the reason I'm rewriting it, because it does a miserable job of
accomplishing that goal. I use Amano's original artwork when trying to get a
feel for a scene, and I use the various renditions of Final Fantasy music to
help create a feeling. Unfortunately, the problem is that unless the reader is
listening to the same music, they don't get the point. That was my big falter;
when readind the story as it was, it was terrible.
I believe that Final Fantasy transcends a mere cartridge, hence the reason that
the terrific music CD's can bring tears to my eyes (of joy, not saddness, of
course). The only time the game itself made me cry was Aeris' death in FF7
(saddness, NOT joy). Other than that, anytime that a "Final Fantasy Game" has
made me really emotionally high is when I'm not playing it. I'm trying to make
my fanfic invoke those feelings (and it's failed terribly so far).
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> Well gee, if I was going to make tons more money by letting some crackpots
> slaughter my game, I'd say go for it, too. Who wouldn't?
Indeed, but how is this at all relevant? Fan translators do exactly the
same thing by butchering the original work, only the creators receive no
recompense.
> Well no, but that is why the translation groups put their name in the game.
> Well, partly for personal glory, but also to show that this is THEIR version of
> Square's game. Just like FF1. It says SQUARE 1987. Then Nintendo 1990. The
> FFx team replaces Nintendo with FFx Team 1998. I replaced Nintendo with
> Frioniel 1998. That way no one will say Nintendo did a crappy job on it. They
> can blame us!
Which is a bit morally suspect, in any case, since you're still using
Nintendo's work, albeit changing it significantly (though I won't make
an issue of it, since I know logistically you can't add a new line
there; also, technically it's not your copyright at all). But how do you
tell the difference? If you hadn't known Square's original work, how
could you tell, for instance, that Cara wasn't the original name of
Kururu/Krile? Hell, the name "translator" itself carries with it the
idea that said translator will remain true the original work. What you
do to the game will affect, in some way, the reputation of the creators.
As long as their name remains on the work, it will be that way, and if
you take their name off, you've committed another, even worse sin.
> Well I'll agree with you there. However, Kururu wouldn't fit, and they might
> not have known about Krile. Not many people here did until Marketing pointed
> out.
Kururu would fit: It was included in almost every release up to the
final. Barubary has gone on record in saying the change was made for
editorial, not space-related, reasons.
> They both have the same basic idea: that the twins can see right through
> Baigan's lies. I don't agree with the Willaim Shatner thing, but still, it
> didn't change the intention of the desiger...it just phrased it differently.
No, and as I said before, it's not a matter of intent so much as a
matter of execution. The Shatner line is, by association, in the minds
of the casual gamer, going to be attributed to the original creator, not
the translator. This is an example of a bad editorial change; there are
"positive" changes that can be made, of course: No one's perfect. But
the problem is knowing what the designers intended. Sink or swim, it is
*their* work. What they wrote was what they intended to write. Whether
or not you can do better is irrelevant.
> Again, why would anyone really say no? Well I've already made the game. If I
> let these losers translate and slaughter my game, I'll still get tons of moola
> and won't have to lift a finger. Naw...I don't think I want to do that. Yeah
> right...
Yep, people do. Not many people, admittedly, but there are people out
there who consider their job as artisans, and don't want their games
handled by others. But, in any case, this excuses nothing: It's their
decision to make, not yours. You can't presume to know why they've
chosen what they have. Unfortunately, it is their work, not yours, and
they have the right to decide what happens to it. You can't assume to
know their decisions.
> Yes but these translators aren't keeping the original translators name on it.
> They keep Square's name there because Square made the game. Then they list
> themselves as the translators because that is what they did: they translated
> the game. If J2E had put:
But that's something of the point: Obviously, taking their name off the
work is, if anything, more suspect that changing their original words.
But if Square's name is still on the work, it's expected that it is
Square's work. Particularly in the case of, let's be honest, legally
suspect alterations of the original work, since the original creators
are not being paid, it's not that ridiculous to expect the translators
to remain as close as possible to the original. That excludes any major
editorial changes, as J2e has exercised. If Square is going to receive
no control, or any benefits of the work, then it better damned well be
as close to Square's original as humanly possible.
> Well I was hardly thinking, "Gosh, that Makino Hoshita (made up name)? What
> was he thinking?" I thought, "Eww...J2E screwed that line up..."
You did, largely because you've had some experience with the game before
(from SquareSoft's mangled translation and beyond), and have experience
in the translation scene. Not everyone does, and it's quite logical to
expect there will be a large number of people out there who've no such
connections (particularly now that the SNES cart is well and truly out
of print), and this number will increase as these fans translations
proliferate. It's not whether or not you know; it's whether everyone can
be expected to.
> Unless it's Nobuo, Amano, or Sakaguchi, you are right. They didn't change the
> music, they didn't screw up Amano's artwork (since it wasn't really implement
> into the games; it was to good to be portrayed on an NES or SNES). They didn't
> mess with the game mechanics. They just changed the dialouge from Japanese to
> English. They don't care either.
Wrong-o. They do care what happens to their work, Frioniel. How much
they care, of course, depends, but saying they don't have any emotional
ties to the work, however weak, is ridiculous. Case-in-point, you claim
not to care about your FF Story fanfic, yet you've asked me to remove it
from the page (which I will get around to doing, eventually, believe me
<G>), so you obviously care enough about it to want to improve it.
> They get paid big bucks to do this stuff;
> most could care less about the game after they get their money.
First of all, without crawling into the head of the writers, you have no
basis for this claim: Interviews with the design staff of the series
show they put a great deal of thought and effort into their games. And
second of all, that's just it: They don't get their money! Fan
translators don't pay for the rights to the work they translate, and the
game is still copyright Square. Meaning they have the right to decide
what happens to it. Saying "their just in it for the money" doesn't
excuse anything, particularly in a capitalist system.
Fan translators break this copyright, or at least walk its line,
inherently with the work they do. Morally, it's at least forgivable
provided they show respect to the ideas and implementation of the
original. It's very little to ask considering how they essentially get
away with legal murder.
> Fan translators don't get jack from their work except maybe flames from people
> like you, 007. That didn't come out right, because I do like you Sean, but
> these people are putting hard work into their translations that Square and
> Nintendo didn't bother to.
Remember though, Flionl, that Square and Nintendo had the legitimacy of
paying for their right to mangle the work. J2e, and other fan
translators, do not.
> They aren't asking for money; they do it because
> they love the games.
Then, if they love the games, they need to show respect for the
creators. If they love the games, then they have learned to love the
games because of the work these people put into the game.
If they love the games so much, why do they change it? If they feel they
can do better, then, by all means, do so. With their own games. If you
derive enjoyment out of a work, then it's a bit hypocritical not to
respect the effort put into it by the people who created it.
You may wax on about "adapting the game for a different market," but,
the fact is, this needs to be done but rarely. It's not enough simply to
respect the original intent of the creators, because you don't
necessarily know what that intent was: Different people read different
things into the same work. They only way around this is by staying true
to the original.
Let's look again at the Shatner line. By all accounts, it was pretty
horrid, even without taking into account its legitimacy. But it also
reduces the scene to comedy, not to mention shattering the suspension of
disbelief in the scene. J2e assumed this scene was meant to be taken
lightly: You can't be sure the original writer did. It could very well
have been meant to be deadly serious. By altering the mood of the scene,
you've changed the whole feeling of the work, and shown a great deal of
disrespect to the people whose work you love so dearly.
> I agree, but we don't have an original FF2, 3, 4, or 5. That is why I'm kind
> of "iffy" about my FF1 hack. I don't like just taking Nintendo's work,
> changing a few things, and saying, "There, this is mine. I did this." That
> was the reason I wanted to simply translate the original Japanese game, no
> matter how impractical or foolish it sounded.
Which I touched on a few lines up, actually. You should probably keep
Nintendo's name on the work somewhere, though, since you are using their
work as a basis.
Frioniel
>Indeed, but how is this at all relevant? Fan translators do exactly the
>same thing by butchering the original work, only the creators receive no
>recompense.
>
Yes, but the creators have absolutely no hand in the translation. They get
something for nothing. That doesn't seem right to me.
>
>Which is a bit morally suspect, in any case, since you're still using
>Nintendo's work,
I know. Trust me, that gnaws on me too. I don't like changing Nintendo's
work. But the other games don't change the changed version; they change the
original.
>albeit changing it significantly (though I won't make
>an issue of it, since I know logistically you can't add a new line
>there; also, technically it's not your copyright at all).
Yeah, I'll be sure to delete the C in the circle...but I don't think it's even
there. Still, I just have that there to say that I editted this one.
>But how do you
>tell the difference? If you hadn't known Square's original work, how
>could you tell, for instance, that Cara wasn't the original name of
>Kururu/Krile?
Good point.
> Hell, the name "translator" itself carries with it the
>idea that said translator will remain true the original work. What you
>do to the game will affect, in some way, the reputation of the creators.
Hence FF2US' reputation? Is that what you mean? If so, I can wholeheartedly
agree. However, that was due to mass censorship and bad translating, not bad
"Americanizing".
>As long as their name remains on the work, it will be that way, and if
>you take their name off, you've committed another, even worse sin.
I already agreed with that one.
>Kururu would fit: It was included in almost every release up to the
>final. Barubary has gone on record in saying the change was made for
>editorial, not space-related, reasons.
>
Oh yeah, I remember a friend had an old patch and her name was Kururu. Well in
that case, I stand corrected. That change was definately inexcusable but after
Marketing pointed out that Square gave her the English name Krile, I would have
used that rather than Cara or Kururu.
>No, and as I said before, it's not a matter of intent so much as a
>matter of execution. The Shatner line is, by association, in the minds
>of the casual gamer, going to be attributed to the original creator, not the
translator.
Well, a casual gamer isn't going to deal with the hassel associated with ROMs.
Besides, since William Shatner probably isn't that well known in Japan, it's
pretty safe to assume that the original creator didn't really use that line in
particular.
>This is an example of a bad editorial change;
Yes, it is.
>there are
>"positive" changes that can be made, of course: No one's perfect.
Yeah, and I think changing Mu to Void is one of them. While you may be right
in arguing that Mu is more appropriate because means "Nothingness" whereas Void
doesn't, an American gamer isn't going to know what Mu means. Therefore, that
will come across as jibberish to them which is certainly not what the creators
had intended. Sure, Void may not mean Nothingness, but its closer to that
meaning than Mu (used in Ameican context and not Japanese).
>Yep, people do. Not many people, admittedly, but there are people out
>there who consider their job as artisans, and don't want their games
>handled by others.
Yes, but not the ones at Square. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had FF2US, FF4
PSX, or FF5 PSX. All of those are shoddy ports of the original, intended only
to squeeze the last bit of profit out of the game as possible. Also remember
that the FF games don't have 1 creator. It was made by a team of many, MANY
people.
>But, in any case, this excuses nothing: It's their
>decision to make, not yours. You can't presume to know why they've
>chosen what they have. Unfortunately, it is their work, not yours, and
>they have the right to decide what happens to it. You can't assume to
>know their decisions.
True, I guess. Still I don't care because if it wasn't for these crappy little
translation groups as you think of them, I would never have been able to
experience Final Fantasies 2-5. Had I just decided to be noble and worship
Square, I would have only been able to experience FF1, a really shoddily done 4
easytype, 6, 7, and Tactics. So you have to excuse me if I can't just say,
"Well, it's thanks to you that I've discovered these incredible gems. You are
a low-life scum. You illegally altered their game. I don't care how much hard
work you put into this (sans pay) just us Americans' benefit. You are evil.
DIE!" I respect them and their decisions. Square didn't release them, so why
should I respect them. Sure, it was all Nintendo's doing BACK THEN, but now
they could do it if they wanted to. I'm not going to forgive them so easily.
>
>But that's something of the point: Obviously, taking their name off the
>work is, if anything, more suspect that changing their original words.
>But if Square's name is still on the work, it's expected that it is
>Square's work.
But it is Square's work! It's just translated so we can read it!
>Particularly in the case of, let's be honest, legally
>suspect alterations of the original work, since the original creators
>are not being paid, it's not that ridiculous to expect the translators
>to remain as close as possible to the original.
Does it matter? If they do a terrible job with the translation or do an almost
exactly perfect translation, it's just as illegal.
>That excludes any major
>editorial changes, as J2e has exercised. If Square is going to receive
>no control, or any benefits of the work, then it better damned well be
>as close to Square's original as humanly possible.
No, because Square could press charges either way.
Let's assume that Magoo here is being arrested for illegally altering Square's
game. Let's say he did FF4.
Magoo: Just because I put William Shatner's name in one line!? Please no!
Cops: Who cares, what you did was illegal.
Or....
Magoo: But it is an almost exact translation of the original!
Cops: Who cares, what you did was illegal.
>You did, largely because you've had some experience with the game before
>(from SquareSoft's mangled translation and beyond), and have experience
>in the translation scene
Admittedly, you are right. Still, had I been a "newbie" to emulation, I
wouldn't have found it logical for a Japanese Game Maker to use an American
actor's name in their analogy...
>Not everyone does, and it's quite logical to
>expect there will be a large number of people out there who've no such
>connections (particularly now that the SNES cart is well and truly out
>of print), and this number will increase as these fans translations
>proliferate. It's not whether or not you know; it's whether everyone can
>be expected to.
I agree. The William Shatner line was inappropriate as were some other lines.
That doesn't make the entire translation garbage though.
>Wrong-o. They do care what happens to their work, Frioniel. How much
>they care, of course, depends, but saying they don't have any emotional
>ties to the work, however weak, is ridiculous.
Hmm....maybe you have a point. I couldn't bring myself to work on something I
wasn't really tied to. However, I require a strong tie, emotionally, whereas
other might not. Okay, I see your point
.>Case-in-point, you claim
>not to care about your FF Story fanfic, yet you've asked me to remove it
>from the page (which I will get around to doing, eventually, believe me
><G>), so you obviously care enough about it to want to improve it.
I care about the Fanfic, otherwise I would drop it. However, my work that I've
released so far has been garbage. I refuse to let my work be a piece of trash
if I'm going to really put effort into it. Yes, I want very much so to improve
it.
However, if the FF creators thought this way, why would FF2US, FF4PSX, and
FF5PSX have been released. If they cared so much about their work, then why
did they let them be dragged through the mud?
>First of all, without crawling into the head of the writers, you have no
>basis for this claim:
Yeah, that is true.
>Interviews with the design staff of the series
>show they put a great deal of thought and effort into their games.
That is usually with the Producers.
>And
>second of all, that's just it: They don't get their money! Fan
>translators don't pay for the rights to the work they translate, and the
>game is still copyright Square.
They didn't do any work on the translation! I never cared much for all the
legal mumbo jumbo anyhow so I say, "Feh" to copyrights...
>Meaning they have the right to decide
>what happens to it. Saying "their just in it for the money" doesn't
>excuse anything, particularly in a capitalist system.
See above statement.
>Fan translators break this copyright, or at least walk its line,
>inherently with the work they do.
So what? It's Square's fault we have to take such desparate measures in the
first place. If they had released the game with the same quality as the
original, then there wouldn't be fan translators.
>Morally, it's at least forgivable
>provided they show respect to the ideas and implementation of the
>original. It's very little to ask considering how they essentially get
>away with legal murder
Well, if Square doesn't find it "morally acceptable", then they should press
charges since they are legally able to do so. Yet, they haven't yet, have
they?
>Remember though, Flionl, that Square and Nintendo had the legitimacy of
>paying for their right to mangle the work. J2e, and other fan
>translators, do not.
But also, the fan translators don't gain any money, which Square and Nintendo
did. While the official companies lose money but gain double, fans lose
nothing but get nothing.
>Then, if they love the games, they need to show respect for the
>creators. If they love the games, then they have learned to love the
>games because of the work these people put into the game.
They do respect the creators, otherwise FF4 would have turned out like that
cheesy FFXXX hack. It didn't though.
>If they love the games so much, why do they change it? If they feel they
>can do better, then, by all means, do so. With their own games.
They change it because it makes little to no sense in English.
>If you
>derive enjoyment out of a work, then it's a bit hypocritical not to
>respect the effort put into it by the people who created it.
It has nothing to do with the people who created it. It has to do with
Square's stupidity not to release their games in the US.
>You may wax on about "adapting the game for a different market," but,
>the fact is, this needs to be done but rarely.
It can't be done at all if the game isn't released in a different market.
>It's not enough simply to
>respect the original intent of the creators, because you don't
>necessarily know what that intent was: Different people read different
>things into the same work. They only way around this is by staying true
>to the original.
>
And for the most part, they all did. They stayed more true to the original
than 2US did, did they not?
>
>Let's look again at the Shatner line. By all accounts, it was pretty
>horrid, even without taking into account its legitimacy.
Agreed...
>But it also
>reduces the scene to comedy, not to mention shattering the suspension of
>disbelief in the scene. J2e assumed this scene was meant to be taken
>lightly: You can't be sure the original writer did. It could very well
>have been meant to be deadly serious. By altering the mood of the scene,
>you've changed the whole feeling of the work, and shown a great deal of
>disrespect to the people whose work you love so dearly.
I already said countless times that the Shatner line was inexcusable.
>
>Which I touched on a few lines up, actually. You should probably keep
>Nintendo's name on the work somewhere, though, since you are using their
>work as a basis.
>
Point is, I can't do that. So I don't want to use their work as a basis. I
want to use Square's work as a basis. However, I can't find a translator...sad
ol' me...
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> >Indeed, but how is this at all relevant? Fan translators do exactly the
> >same thing by butchering the original work, only the creators receive no
> >recompense.
>
> Yes, but the creators have absolutely no hand in the translation. They get
> something for nothing. That doesn't seem right to me.
What are you talking about? Without their original work, the
"translation" could not take place to begin with. They are most
assuredly not getting something for nothing: They created the work.
> Hence FF2US' reputation? Is that what you mean? If so, I can wholeheartedly
> agree. However, that was due to mass censorship and bad translating, not bad
> "Americanizing".
Yes, but it's all the same, when it comes down to it. If the script to
FF4 is bad, then the creators of the game deserve the blame. If the
script to J2e's translation is bad, they still recieve the blame, only
this time undersevedly so. And as our recent discussions regarding FF4-6
prove, worth is in the eye of the beholder. So, though J2e may believe
they are improving the work by "Americanizing" it, its what the creators
believe that essentially counts.
> Well, a casual gamer isn't going to deal with the hassel associated with ROMs.
Won't they? What about the posts recently asking why FF5 isn't fully
translated (when it is) should prove that this concept is spreading
beyond the very cliquish slot it filled before. For people who've had no
experience with the original game, and as technology and emulation
improves, more and more casual gamers will be drawn in.
> Yeah, and I think changing Mu to Void is one of them. While you may be right
> in arguing that Mu is more appropriate because means "Nothingness" whereas Void
> doesn't, an American gamer isn't going to know what Mu means.
This, to be fair, is more of a poor translation than a mistranslation.
> Therefore, that
> will come across as jibberish to them which is certainly not what the creators
> had intended. Sure, Void may not mean Nothingness, but its closer to that
> meaning than Mu (used in Ameican context and not Japanese).
Then, by all means, translate it. Use "Nothingness." Just don't change
it to "Void" because you like the sound of it better.
> Yes, but not the ones at Square. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had FF2US, FF4
> PSX, or FF5 PSX. All of those are shoddy ports of the original, intended only
> to squeeze the last bit of profit out of the game as possible.
You make a serious assumption here that apparent disregard on some
counts equal total disregard on all counts. Indeed, interviews with the
production staff shows that they take their work very seriously indeed:
Interviews with Mr. Sakaguchi shows how much he draws from his own
personal life for his games, and, in as real a sense as possible,
injects a little bit of himself into his work.
And you still have avoided the blatantly obvious thing which seperates
Square and Nintendo's lousy translations from J2e's: The former pay for
that right. J2e does not.
> Also remember
> that the FF games don't have 1 creator. It was made by a team of many, MANY
> people.
Indeed. How is this relevant, though?
> True, I guess. Still I don't care because if it wasn't for these crappy little
> translation groups as you think of them, I would never have been able to
> experience Final Fantasies 2-5. Had I just decided to be noble and worship
> Square, I would have only been able to experience FF1, a really shoddily done 4
> easytype, 6, 7, and Tactics.
I don't advocate utter disregard for fan translations, and have played
them myself. I draw the line, however, when the fan translators make
needless editorial changes. In any case, it's all legally, and, indeed,
morally suspect, but by rewriting the words of the author, it indicates
the translation was done with no real respect for the original, in which
case, IMO, it shouldn't have been done at all.
> But it is Square's work! It's just translated so we can read it!
But is it? The Shatner line wasn't "translated," it was changed
outright, for instance. Back before J2e's final patch was released,
there was a whole comparision between the directly translated original
Japanese and J2e's "translation."
> Does it matter? If they do a terrible job with the translation or do an almost
> exactly perfect translation, it's just as illegal.
But this isn't just a legal matter, and I don't make any pretense of
portraying it as just that. What it comes down to is morality: When the
translator stays as close as possible to the original, they show their
respect for the ideas and the words of the creators. When they stray
significantly, as J2e did with their FF4 translation, they show no such
respect. And while the former makes the entire effort at least morally,
if not legally, forgivable, the latter only compounds the illegitimacy
of the matter.
> No, because Square could press charges either way.
Again, where are you getting the idea I'm looking at this from a legal
standpoint? If I were, we wouldn't be having this discussion, since the
emulation required to play these games wouldn't be available.
> However, if the FF creators thought this way, why would FF2US, FF4PSX, and
> FF5PSX have been released. If they cared so much about their work, then why
> did they let them be dragged through the mud?
I don't know, and I could hardly claim to know what goes through the
minds of those involved. But, in the end, it's still their decision.
What constitutes "dragged through the mud" to you may not be the same
for them. You cannot presume to make that decision for them.
> That is usually with the Producers.
Which right there contradicts your claim they don't care at all what
happens to their work.
> They didn't do any work on the translation! I never cared much for all the
> legal mumbo jumbo anyhow so I say, "Feh" to copyrights...
Erm, how do you translate a non-existant game, Frioniel? If they hadn't
created the original, it wouldn't be around for the translators to
translate, now would it? That's a fair amount of the work right there.
It's the same idea as buying a video game: You pay for the right to play
the game just as the translators pay for the right to translate it.
> So what? It's Square's fault we have to take such desparate measures in the
> first place. If they had released the game with the same quality as the
> original, then there wouldn't be fan translators.
Let's come back down to earth for a moment, Frioniel. This is a two-way
street. What if Square had never released the games to begin with? You
wouldn't take these "desperate measures" if Square hadn't bothered to
produce a game you enjoy. In this case, they owe you nothing.
> Well, if Square doesn't find it "morally acceptable", then they should press
> charges since they are legally able to do so. Yet, they haven't yet, have
> they?
Most likely they don't know much about it. And, even if they did, they
may not wish to waste the time or money. You should be thankful of that,
really. The idea is not that they do, but they can.
> But also, the fan translators don't gain any money, which Square and Nintendo
> did. While the official companies lose money but gain double, fans lose
> nothing but get nothing.
No, but Square does. Aside from the potential damage to their
reputation, which is not so much a business reason as an artistic one,
it also potentially hurts the financial viability of any potential
release of the game. Realistically, we know that the impact this may
have on the sales of the game are slight, but it's still Square's
property, and, having put their time, money, and effort into the game,
they deserve to get recompense for it.
> They do respect the creators, otherwise FF4 would have turned out like that
> cheesy FFXXX hack. It didn't though.
Then you can explain the blatant changes to the dialogue, I'm sure?
> They change it because it makes little to no sense in English.
That's utter nonsense, Frioniel. Of the entire script to FF4, very
little of it was so Japan-centric as to be indecipherable to American
audiences. Look at FF5's translation: Mark Rosa made it very clear he
minimized the changes made to the script. Of all the game, what was the
only bit that had to be changed? One word: changing "sake" to "beer."
Whether or not the script was very good is besides the point (and,
indeed, subjective): It was as close as possible to what the authors
intended. By making editorial decisions regarding FF4, J2e pushed past
the boundaries of translators and made themselves into a secondary
production staff, a role they have even less right to fill than that of
translators.
> It has nothing to do with the people who created it. It has to do with
> Square's stupidity not to release their games in the US.
Bullshit, Frioniel, and you very well know it. Square has no obligation
to translate their works, and if they decide not to, that's very much
their right.
I really don't have much of a moral problem with the concept of
translations, though it does break the implicit decision of the company
not to release the game to begin with. Wher I draw the line is between
translating a game against the creators' (implied) wishes, and acting as
if it's my work to change as I see fit.
> And for the most part, they all did. They stayed more true to the original
> than 2US did, did they not?
Scriptwise? No, not really. There were considerable differences to both.
And, once again, Square Japan had the right to choose whether or not to
translate the game. Their finished product, the relative worth of it
aside, was what they intended. As far as I'm concerned, any translation
should either go by that, or go for as direct a translation as possible
of the original Japanese (I'm not nearly as bad as SoM2Freak in this
regard, who believes that the American script should be maintained at
all costs).
I don't damn the translation scene as a whole, don't get me wrong, and I
know there's a degree of moral (and legal, of course) uncertainty around
the very concept. I also don't claim to be a perfect human being, and I
not only forgive, but applaud, the idea of translating unreleased games.
The proviso, however, is that the translator show a little morality in
respecting the work of the original.
I think the most important thing for fan translators to remember is that
they are walking a thin line, both legally and morally. By editing a
supposed "translation" needlessly, they cross the line between a
selfless sharing of a game they enjoy with those who couldn't otherwise
play it, and a ridiculous egotistical desire to see their own words in
lights, as it were, at the expense of the original work. And that
shatters what little moral protection they have.
skco...@worldnet.att.net
> > agree. However, that was due to mass censorship and bad translating, not bad
> > "Americanizing".
>
Yeah, I like FF2 the way it is. Hearing characters swear and stuff would have been
wrong. And plus, text swearing (especially by shrunken RPG guys) seems quite pathetic.
> > Well, a casual gamer isn't going to deal with the hassel associated with ROMs.
>
The casual gamer doesn't even know about roms, heh.
>
> > Yeah, and I think changing Mu to Void is one of them. While you may be right
> > in arguing that Mu is more appropriate because means "Nothingness" whereas Void
> > doesn't, an American gamer isn't going to know what Mu means.
>
> This, to be fair, is more of a poor translation than a mistranslation.
>
Huh? Void means nothingness too! I don't see why you're complaining about that.
> > Therefore, that
> > will come across as jibberish to them which is certainly not what the creators
> > had intended. Sure, Void may not mean Nothingness, but its closer to that
> > meaning than Mu (used in Ameican context and not Japanese).
>
Mu -is- jibberish to people who can't speak Japanese, but -void is nothingness- in
English... Ahh.
> I don't advocate utter disregard for fan translations, and have played
> them myself. I draw the line, however, when the fan translators make
> needless editorial changes. In any case, it's all legally, and, indeed,
> morally suspect, but by rewriting the words of the author, it indicates
> the translation was done with no real respect for the original, in which
> case, IMO, it shouldn't have been done at all.
>
What? Are you talking about direct translation? Have you -seen- a directly translated
sentence? I'll give an example from my Japanese Shin Megami Tensei manual.
"Nippon no shyuto, Toukyou. Sono daitoshi Toukyou no itsukaku, kichijyouji ni hahaoya to
hutari gurashi no shyounen ga ita. Hahaoya omoi no kokoro yasashii shyounen wa heiwa na
hibi wo sugoshi deshita."
Here's a direct translation.
Japan's capital, Tokyo. That big city Tokyo's corner, 'Kichijyouji' at mother together
two people as her son lived. Mother felt of heart easy. As for boy peaceful days lived.
Here's a (gasp) innaccurate translation!
Japan's capital, Tokyo. In a district of Tokyo called Kichijyouji, two people lived, a
mother and her son. The mother's heart was at ease. As for the boy, he spent his days
peacefully.
Not much difference, but the second one sounds better, eh? Two different languages need
two different approaches.
> > However, if the FF creators thought this way, why would FF2US, FF4PSX, and
> > FF5PSX have been released. If they cared so much about their work, then why
> > did they let them be dragged through the mud?
>
> I don't know, and I could hardly claim to know what goes through the
> minds of those involved. But, in the end, it's still their decision.
> What constitutes "dragged through the mud" to you may not be the same
> for them. You cannot presume to make that decision for them.
>
I say they don't think American gamers would buy it. Since America's generally very
graphics intent.
> Then you can explain the blatant changes to the dialogue, I'm sure?
>
> > They change it because it makes little to no sense in English.
>
Oh, point already proven, heh.
Frioniel
>Yeah, I like FF2 the way it is. Hearing characters swear and stuff would have
>been
>wrong. And plus, text swearing (especially by shrunken RPG guys) seems quite
>pathetic.
>
True. When I first heard Cid and Edge have their very poinless swearing fight
in FF4, I though, "Man, this is stupid." However, anything is better than.
Edge: Darn, I was to get Zemus.
THAT is pathetic.
>The casual gamer doesn't even know about roms, heh.
Unless you tell them...heh heh...
>
>Huh? Void means nothingness too! I don't see why you're complaining about
>that.
No, please don't argue Sean here. I already tried. He comes up with this
wacky story about how Nothingness works on a seperate set of laws than physical
reality and how Void implies some physical reality. It sounds like a line to
me, but just smile and nod.
>
>Mu -is- jibberish to people who can't speak Japanese, but -void is
>nothingness- in
>English... Ahh.
>
Again, I hope Sean doesn't hear you say that.
>What? Are you talking about direct translation? Have you -seen- a directly
>translated
>sentence? I'll give an example from my Japanese Shin Megami Tensei manual.
>
>"Nippon no shyuto, Toukyou. Sono daitoshi Toukyou no itsukaku, kichijyouji ni
>hahaoya to
>hutari gurashi no shyounen ga ita. Hahaoya omoi no kokoro yasashii shyounen
>wa heiwa na
>hibi wo sugoshi deshita."
>
>Here's a direct translation.
>
>Japan's capital, Tokyo. That big city Tokyo's corner, 'Kichijyouji' at mother
>together
>two people as her son lived. Mother felt of heart easy. As for boy peaceful
>days lived.
>
>Here's a (gasp) innaccurate translation!
>
>Japan's capital, Tokyo. In a district of Tokyo called Kichijyouji, two people
>lived, a
>mother and her son. The mother's heart was at ease. As for the boy, he spent
>his days
>peacefully.
>
>
>Not much difference, but the second one sounds better, eh? Two different
>languages need
>two different approaches.
>
Trust me, he's not talking about THAT. He's talking about changing the mood
that the original creators intended for scenes by needlessly altering the
dialouge.
>
>I say they don't think American gamers would buy it. Since America's
>generally very
>graphics intent.
>
I'm saying that the "rereleases" and FF2US were shoddily done because there was
little to no real effort put into them.
>
>Oh, point already proven, heh.
>
>
Oh, thanks for point that out. Take that 007!
Frioniel
tired so excuse me if I'm not on-the-ball.
>
>What are you talking about? Without their original work, the
>"translation" could not take place to begin with. They are most
>assuredly not getting something for nothing: They created the work.
>
Well duh, I never said they didn't. Still, in the making of FF2US, they did
nothing. Their work was done long ago. The did not translate the game, and
they were already paid for making the game.
>Yes, but it's all the same, when it comes down to it. If the script to
>FF4 is bad, then the creators of the game deserve the blame. If the
>script to J2e's translation is bad, they still recieve the blame, only
>this time undersevedly so. And as our recent discussions regarding FF4-6
>prove, worth is in the eye of the beholder. So, though J2e may believe
>they are improving the work by "Americanizing" it, its what the creators
>believe that essentially counts.
Hmm..well did J2E add all the stuff about Kain's father being a Dragoon as
well? Did J2E add the stuff about KluYa founding Mysidia and Zemus building
the Tower of Babil? If that wasn't in the original, then J2E needlessly
improved my view of Square. Even if Square is moronic and left all of those
things out, because J2E put them in, I think of FF4 as one of the best of the
series (which doesn't hold up well because I'll say that about any of the
others).
>Won't they?
That is REALLY getting annoying, Sean. >What about the posts recently asking
why FF5 isn't fully
>translated (when it is) should prove that this concept is spreading
>beyond the very cliquish slot it filled before. For people who've had no
>experience with the original game, and as technology and emulation
>improves, more and more casual gamers will be drawn in.
>
Well the first and only way I ever played FF5 was via emulator, so I had no
experience with the "original" either.
>
>This, to be fair, is more of a poor translation than a mistranslation.
Well, I'm glad that's cleared up ^_^
>
>Then, by all means, translate it. Use "Nothingness." Just don't change
>it to "Void" because you like the sound of it better.
Still, is there not ONE word in the English language that means "Nothingness"
but is a tad easier on the tongue.
>You make a serious assumption here that apparent disregard on some
>counts equal total disregard on all counts. Indeed, interviews with the
>production staff shows that they take their work very seriously indeed:
>Interviews with Mr. Sakaguchi shows how much he draws from his own
>personal life for his games, and, in as real a sense as possible,
>injects a little bit of himself into his work.
Yes, into the originals. However, this doesn't excuse the shoddy ports done of
FF4 and 5.
>
>And you still have avoided the blatantly obvious thing which seperates
>Square and Nintendo's lousy translations from J2e's: The former pay for
>that right. J2e does not.
>
Yes but they gain tons of money for doing so. Fan don't much of anything aside
from grief from people like you Sean.
>
>Indeed. How is this relevant, though?
>
Umm...with that statement alone, I must admit it's not.
>I don't advocate utter disregard for fan translations, and have played
>them myself. I draw the line, however, when the fan translators make
>needless editorial changes.
So you are saying that I should have stuck with J2E's first patch (with the 2US
dialouge)? Blech, then call me a sinner and send me to hell because there is no
way in the world I would force myself to play through such an utter piece of
crap.
> In any case, it's all legally, and, indeed,
>morally suspect, but by rewriting the words of the author, it indicates
>the translation was done with no real respect for the original, in which
>case, IMO, it shouldn't have been done at all.
So then both 3 AND 4 would lack translations. Nope, there is no way I'm EVER
going to agree with that. Any translation is better than none. Instead of
complaining about J2E, why don't you translate the game better?
>But is it?
Urge...to...kill...007....rising...
>The Shatner line wasn't "translated," it was changed
>outright, for instance.
Why do you keep bringing up a line we have both already agreed was stupid?
>Back before J2e's final patch was released,
>there was a whole comparision between the directly translated original
>Japanese and J2e's "translation."
I read it too. I'll have read it again by the time I make my next post...
>When the
>translator stays as close as possible to the original, they show their
>respect for the ideas and the words of the creators.
Okay...
>When they stray
>significantly, as J2e did with their FF4 translation, they show no such
>respect.
Then why would they both to change it in the first place? Why would anyone
work on a project they didn't respect. Why go through the long hours to expand
the spell and item names. I don't see how changing some stuff means that they
don't care at all about the Japanese version.
>And while the former makes the entire effort at least morally,
>if not legally, forgivable, the latter only compounds the illegitimacy
>of the matter.
I still don't see your argument here...
>
>Again, where are you getting the idea I'm looking at this from a legal
>standpoint? If I were, we wouldn't be having this discussion, since the
>emulation required to play these games wouldn't be available.
>
Okay, okay...next question...
>I don't know, and I could hardly claim to know what goes through the
>minds of those involved. But, in the end, it's still their decision.
>What constitutes "dragged through the mud" to you may not be the same
>for them. You cannot presume to make that decision for them.
Okay sure, whatever.
>
>Which right there contradicts your claim they don't care at all what
>happens to their work.
>
I didn't say that. However, the Original Producer isn't in charge of the
shoddy ports.
>Erm, how do you translate a non-existant game, Frioniel? If they hadn't
>created the original, it wouldn't be around for the translators to
>translate, now would it?
That was the most pathetic argument you've said yet...of course not. Even Carl
would know THAT.
>That's a fair amount of the work right there.
Which they've already been compensated for.
>It's the same idea as buying a video game: You pay for the right to play
>the game just as the translators pay for the right to translate it.
However, you don't make all your money back plus some by buying a game.
Companies like Nintendo and Sony make lots of money for paying for this
"right".
>Let's come back down to earth for a moment, Frioniel
Okay, fire the retro rockets! (Aye, Aye, Sir!) There we go, back on
Earth...sucks...don't it?
> This is a two-way
>street. What if Square had never released the games to begin with?
Correction, the previous statement was the SECOND most ridiculous thing I've
ever heard you say. Obviously, had Square never released the games, period,
then there would be no argument because no one would have known about them.
>You
>wouldn't take these "desperate measures" if Square hadn't bothered to
>produce a game you enjoy.
Very good, Sean. You get the "Super-Blatantly-Obvious" Award!
>In this case, they owe you nothing.
I'm not saying they owe me anything. I mean that it is their fault that they
didn't release the game in the US. Therefore, I'm going to do everything in my
power to play the game in English, regardless of the legal or MORAL issues.
I'm not going to say, "Well J2E's translation is as close to the original as
possible, so I just won't play Final Fantasy IV." That would be cutting off my
nose to spite my face and I like having a nose.
>
>Most likely they don't know much about it. And, even if they did, they
>may not wish to waste the time or money. You should be thankful of that,
>really. The idea is not that they do, but they can.
>
I am thankful of that. Whoop-dee-doo!
>No, but Square does. Aside from the potential damage to their
>reputation, which is not so much a business reason as an artistic one,
Like I said before, if I am mislead to believe that Square added all of the
plot elements to J2E's FF4 (regardless of whether they did or not), then J2E
needlessly improved Square's reputation. Of course, others may not like J2E's
script and will therefore lose faith in Square because of this.
>it also potentially hurts the financial viability of any potential
>release of the game.
o_O Square said they would NEVER release the games in the US. If they ever
had any plans to, they shouldn't have made such a concrete statement.
>Realistically, we know that the impact this may
>have on the sales of the game are slight,
Yep, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
> but it's still Square's
>property, and, having put their time, money, and effort into the game,
>they deserve to get recompense for it.
Well gee, J2E put their heart and effort into the game, yet they get no
compensation for their effort. All they get is the satisfaction of knowing
that because of them, American gamers can play Final Fantasy IV now...and not
FF2US. Square has never given a care about American gamers. To them, if it's
not super-good for Japan, it's certainly not good enough for us. That policy
is sickening, so excuse me if I'm not really inclined to care what Square
thinks of J2E's translation.
>Then you can explain the blatant changes to the dialogue, I'm sure?
Yeah, it's called Square didn't bother to get off their ass and translate the
game, so we will and dammit we can do what we want with it.
>> They change it because it makes little to no sense in English.
>
>That's utter nonsense, Frioniel.
Yeah, I know.
>Of the entire script to FF4, very
>little of it was so Japan-centric as to be indecipherable to American
>audiences.
Yeah, I know.
>Look at FF5's translation: Mark Rosa made it very clear he
>minimized the changes made to the script.
Uh huh....
>Of all the game, what was the
>only bit that had to be changed? One word: changing "sake" to "beer."
So?
>Whether or not the script was very good is besides the point (and,
>indeed, subjective): It was as close as possible to what the authors
>intended.
Uh huh. Also, I saw very little difference between Mark Rosa's script and
RPGe's patch other than the changing of two other words, Cara and Void. That's
all...
> By making editorial decisions regarding FF4, J2e pushed past
>the boundaries of translators and made themselves into a secondary
>production staff, a role they have even less right to fill than that of
>translators.
Then don't play the game Sean. Go learn Japanese (or do you already know
Japanese?) and play the Japanese game or toddle off to play FF2US while the
rest of us play Final Fantasy IV "Americanized".
>Bullshit, Frioniel, and you very well know it. Square has no obligation
>to translate their works, and if they decide not to, that's very much
>their right.
>
Right, but we shouldn't be looked down upon because we take it upon ourselves
to do what Square was too damn lazy to do. Quite frankly, with the release of
all these non-FF games (SaGa Frontier, Xenogears, Parasite Eve) and after
hearing you ramble on about how the original creator (do you even know their
name?) is so perfect, I've come to think that Square has degraded into little
more than a money hungry company that cares little for its games or fans.
>I really don't have much of a moral problem with the concept of
>translations, though it does break the implicit decision of the company
>not to release the game to begin with.
Oh geez. Why do I bother...?
>Wher I draw the line is between
>translating a game against the creators' (implied) wishes, and acting as
>if it's my work to change as I see fit.
Sigh...we've been over this many a time. If I didn't have Voyage set to
repeat, I'd probably lose it and let loose the BEAST!
{Do it! I'll roast him!} (Quiet you!) {Aww...}
>Scriptwise? No, not really. There were considerable differences to both.
>And, once again, Square Japan had the right to choose whether or not to
>translate the game.
And they chose not to. Their mistake. So we did it ourselves. If they should
be compensated for that by Americans they should have respected us enough to
release the game here. They didn't, so it's their loss.
>Their finished product, the relative worth of it
>aside, was what they intended.
And it was/is great (despite what YOU think, Sean).
>As far as I'm concerned, any translation
>should either go by that, or go for as direct a translation as possible
>of the original Japanese (I'm not nearly as bad as SoM2Freak in this
>regard, who believes that the American script should be maintained at
>all costs).
Umm...huh? Did you make a typo? SoM2 believe the "American" script should be
maintained? Or did you meant that he thinks the American script should be as
close to the Japanese game as possible? If the latter is true, I probably
wouldn't like SoM2Freak (well he IS the one doing FF3). Oh, on second thought,
scratch that.
>
>I don't damn the translation scene as a whole,
You sure seem to. You call RPGe's translation crap because they changed 3
words while the perfect Mark Rosa only changed 1. Oh no!
Sean: Foul spawn of Satan! Death to you!
>don't get me wrong, and I
>know there's a degree of moral (and legal, of course) uncertainty around
>the very concept.
Depends on your point of view. I don't acknowledge any moral uncertainty about
it. Of course, anyone can see the legal complications, but that's beside the
point.
>I also don't claim to be a perfect human being, and I
>not only forgive, but applaud, the idea of translating unreleased games.
Really? I hadn't noticed...must have been in those "Stupidest way to Die!"
posts which I don't read. Hmm....
>The proviso, however, is that the translator show a little morality in
>respecting the work of the original.
>
Like you said, morally, changing the work period is wrong. J2E didn't change
anything vital to the story. They even said so. They didn't make Rosa sleep
with Golbez and then have Golbez turn out to be Cecil's father. They kept the
story true to the original.
Sean: Did they? Blah, blah, blah...
I can already see it...::sigh::...
>
>I think the most important thing for fan translators to remember is that
>they are walking a thin line, both legally and morally.
Depends on the persons morals. Myself, unless I'm working off of someone
else's translation, would not care one bit about take small liberties. If I'm
translating the original Japanese version, I might decide to make some
editorial changes. While you and the law might not agree, I consider that my
right. That's not saying I would keep the storyline true to the original, but
a few little liberties here and there would utterly ruin the game, as you seem
to think.
> By editing a
>supposed "translation" needlessly, they cross the line between a
>selfless sharing of a game they enjoy with those who couldn't otherwise
>play it, and a ridiculous egotistical desire to see their own words in
>lights, as it were, at the expense of the original work. And that
>shatters what little moral protection they have.
>
That's bologna. You have no way of getting inside their heads to know what
they are thinking. Your words, Sean, not mine (well they are mine, NOW, but
originally, you said it first).
Jesse Dorland
wrote:
>Yeah, the Final Fantasy V translation is probably the closest to the
>original game of any fan translations (thanks to, in Frioniel's words,
>raging "traditionalist" SoM2Freak), and most all of the changes are
>relatively minor (if annoying, particularly changing Kururu/Krile to
>Cara).
I think *some* script changes are warranted when a game is translated.
Personally, I wouldn't have been able to take the Cara character
seriously if her name was Kururu. In Japanese, that may be a perfectly
nice-sounding name, but it sounds like incoherent gibberish in English.
-Jesse
====================================================
Jesse Dorland
jessedorland AT hotmail DOT com
10268731 on ICQ
34189 on EGN
Holder of 55 Jappy Points, 50 Survey Slut Points,
49 Insanity Points, 1 Coffee Point, 1 Suave Point,
1 Canadian Mountain Man Point and
1 Kick-A-Man-When-He's-Down Point!
AGFF DEFILER OF POPULAR MUSIC
AGFF GOD AND DEFENDER OF FINAL FANTASY VI
Never seen Sailor Moon and damn proud of it!
Fellow "SM Immune Members of AGFF," wear the
official badge with pride!
*******************************
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*******************************
====================================================
Ian A Kelley
: And, unlike an officially sanctioned translation, extremely
: inapproriate. When Square and Nintendo release a crappy translation, at
: least it has the benefit of the implied approval of the designers of the
: game, *and* they get paid for it.
:
Ha! When I was in Boston at Square's table at a job fair, judging from the
number of people making Ted Woolsey jokes there, I don't think that's a very
accurate assertion...^_^
: When an fan translator, however, starts exercising editorial decision on
: a work, it's deplorable. The creators, of course, have no say to begin
: with, and in some cases may not want their games released here at all.
: But saying that breaking one implied decision excuses all is idiotic.
Do you have any idea how many "editorial decisions" are made by the
so-called professionals? They *far* outnumber those of fan translations,
which are generally done by those with better Japanese skills (since only
those with lower ability would be willing to take a job as a game
translator--the salaries suck and anyone with enough skill to do a really
competent translation would either be working somewhere else with a lot
larger salary, or be selling themselves way short) and who love the games and
want to bring them over as best as possible.
This may sound a little bit stuck-up, but I don't know how else to phrase
it: I think you'd better learn Japanese and compare the "official" US
translations with the originals before you start talking about things you
don't know anything about.
: Don't get me wrong: I don't *like* when commercial business change the
: original, either, but at least that has the implicit support of the
: makers. Fan translations, OTOH, carry with them a degree of moral
: shakiness, no matter how true to the original they are. Though I can
: forgive that, and I understand that some changes must be made simply
: because of the language difference, I cannot forgive second-guessing the
: intent of the original. J2e's FF4 translation disgusted me no end in
: this regard, and, of course, was not helped by the Working Designs-style
: one liners which utterly ruined the mood (particularly the William
: Shatner one). All, of course, IMO.
Side note: The working-designs style one-liners were not my doing. I did
as best a literal translation as I could while making it sound normal in
English. Maybe I'll put the original translations on my page sometime...
--Ian
--
Ian Kelley "Try not to become a man of success but
ike...@mail.sas.upenn.edu rather to become a man of value."
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ikelley/ --Albert Einstein
Sean Daugherty
ike...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Ian A Kelley), was heard saying:
> Ha! When I was in Boston at Square's table at a job fair, judging from the
> number of people making Ted Woolsey jokes there, I don't think that's a very
> accurate assertion...^_^
Indeed. But at least Square of Japan does have, in theory, some say over
the creation of these translations in the first place, unlike fan
translators.
> Do you have any idea how many "editorial decisions" are made by the
> so-called professionals? They *far* outnumber those of fan translations,
> which are generally done by those with better Japanese skills (since only
> those with lower ability would be willing to take a job as a game
> translator--the salaries suck and anyone with enough skill to do a really
> competent translation would either be working somewhere else with a lot
> larger salary, or be selling themselves way short) and who love the games and
> want to bring them over as best as possible.
I know, and I don't approve of these changes, per se, but at least they
were made with first recieving the implicit approval of the creators (in
the practical sense, they have little direct say, but more so than in
fan translations). So, in that respect, without the legal *or* moral
right to change the work in the first place, fan translators have a much
higher expectation of loyalty to the original work.
> This may sound a little bit stuck-up, but I don't know how else to phrase
> it: I think you'd better learn Japanese and compare the "official" US
> translations with the originals before you start talking about things you
> don't know anything about.
I know plenty about it. I think you'd better pay better attention to
this argument before stepping in and utterly missing the point. I
realize that, as a whole, fan translations are closer to the original
than Square's translation. But then, to be in any way legitimate, they
need to be. I have a much higher expectation for fan translators to
remain true to the original than commercial translators.
> Side note: The working-designs style one-liners were not my doing. I did
> as best a literal translation as I could while making it sound normal in
> English. Maybe I'll put the original translations on my page sometime...
The one-liners were much of my complaint about the script. Particularly
in the case of the Shatner line, it completely changed the mood of the
scene, and, without digging through the game itself for the script,
there were several more similar circumstances.
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> > Then you can explain the blatant changes to the dialogue, I'm sure?
> >
> > > They change it because it makes little to no sense in English.
>
> >Oh, point already proven, heh.
>
> Oh, thanks for point that out. Take that 007!
So there was no way to convey that Palom and Porom saw through Baigan's
disguise with making a ridiculously OOC reference to William Shatner?
That style of change was what was being discussed to begin with: We've
accepted that direct translations, even when possible, don't work
gramatically at the start of the discussion, Fionel.
Sean Daugherty
"skco...@worldnet.att.net" <skco...@worldnet.att.net>, was heard
saying:
> Huh? Void means nothingness too! I don't see why you're complaining about that.
Void is of a very slightly different implication. It's defined as
emptiness, and, according to Webster's, merely stresses the lack of any
distingushing characteristics. Nothingness implies the lack of any
sense, that the senses can determine or beyond. It's a minor quibble
that grated heavily on me. To be fair, Mu can be legitimately translated
as "Void," IIRC, but it was fairly clear from the Japanese script that
"nothingness" was closer to the original intent.
> What? Are you talking about direct translation? Have you -seen- a directly translated
> sentence? I'll give an example from my Japanese Shin Megami Tensei manual.
Nope, and I've already readily admitted that direct translations are not
possible in any effective sense. But what was in question here is
completely changing the method in which the dialogue is being said (the
example being most used here as the various Working Designs-style one
liners in FF4 absent from the original).
> I say they don't think American gamers would buy it. Since America's generally very
> graphics intent.
Which shouldn't be a problem for fan translators, should it, since no
one has to buy anything.
Ian A Kelley
: >
: Hmm...yeah. Well he could had read Mark Rosa's script, which 007 seems to
: worship, but that Mark-dude-wog's script made me want to throw up. The only
: thing I liked was, "This kid says he saw a moogle. He's a lying
: flubbernugget!" Other than that, the words Mu and Kururu sickened me. When I
: saw the name Kururu, I thought of the Imp from FF6. So naturally, when I
: played FFV on emulator and say Cara (Krile), I was completely taken aback!
: DIE MARK ROSA! DIE!!!
Whoa there man, take your pills.
Anyhow, don't have such a fit about them leaving the original names
intact; they americanized all the spells, and left in that..."Moogle" *shudder*
name change in too (In Japanese FF games they're called Moglies. Oh, side
trivia note--Moglie probably comes from the Japanese word, "Mogura," which
means "mole." So if you were wondering what animals Moglies were patterned
after...that's probably it.)
Ian A Kelley
: On or about 7 Aug 1998 21:34:19 GMT, the accused,
: ike...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Ian A Kelley), was heard saying:
: > Ha! When I was in Boston at Square's table at a job fair, judging from the
: > number of people making Ted Woolsey jokes there, I don't think that's a very
: > accurate assertion...^_^
: Indeed. But at least Square of Japan does have, in theory, some say over
: the creation of these translations in the first place, unlike fan
: translators.
No they don't. They say "here, release this," then it's all in the hands
of the US companies. That's how you get translations by idiots like Ted
Woolsey who don't even have a grasp of basic Katakana rules,
: > Do you have any idea how many "editorial decisions" are made by the
: > so-called professionals? They *far* outnumber those of fan translations,
: > which are generally done by those with better Japanese skills (since only
: > those with lower ability would be willing to take a job as a game
: > translator--the salaries suck and anyone with enough skill to do a really
: > competent translation would either be working somewhere else with a lot
: > larger salary, or be selling themselves way short) and who love the games and
: > want to bring them over as best as possible.
: I know, and I don't approve of these changes, per se, but at least they
: were made with first recieving the implicit approval of the creators (in
: the practical sense, they have little direct say, but more so than in
: fan translations). So, in that respect, without the legal *or* moral
: right to change the work in the first place, fan translators have a much
: higher expectation of loyalty to the original work.
: I know plenty about it. I think you'd better pay better attention to
: this argument before stepping in and utterly missing the point. I
: realize that, as a whole, fan translations are closer to the original
: than Square's translation. But then, to be in any way legitimate, they
: need to be. I have a much higher expectation for fan translators to
: remain true to the original than commercial translators.
Oh, do you? How many original Japanese versions of games have you played and
understood? What I'm trying to say is until you've played both versions,
AND understood them, you're not seeing the whole all of the picture. I've
played both FF6 and the US FF3, for example, so I feel all right saying that
Ted Woolsey's an idiot and possibly the worst game translator ever, (which he
is, probably) but had only seen one version I wouldn't say a thing because
I'd know that I'd be going off of hearsay at best. To criticize a
translation in any way, shape, or form seems inappropriate to me if you
haven't seen and understood both; you don't really have any grounding behind
your criticisms because you've only seen part of the picture.
BTW: I am not just "stepping in and missing the point." I read this
thread, or as much of it my news server had, before posting. And no
offense, but it's kind of tough to figure out exactly what you're saying
since you seem to be contradicting yourself so often...first you say that
commercial translators' works are "sanctioned" and therefore better, (which
quite frankly makes no sense to me) and now you're saying that you realize
that the fan translators' are more accurate? Which one is it?
: The one-liners were much of my complaint about the script. Particularly
: in the case of the Shatner line, it completely changed the mood of the
: scene, and, without digging through the game itself for the script,
: there were several more similar circumstances.
Yeah, I kind of have to agree with you there. I was kind of pissed off
myself when I played the FF4 ROM and thought "Hey! I didn't put that in
there!" In my script I Americanized it in that I made sound like normal
English speaking but never threw any jokes in that weren't there. And BTW,
even though the thrown-in one-liners were a bit much in the fan
translations, they're nothing compared to the crap put in in say, Chrono
Trigger or FF6's "official" translations...some of the stuff I saw there
wanted to make me throw a brick through the screen...
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> Well duh, I never said they didn't. Still, in the making of FF2US, they did
> nothing. Their work was done long ago. The did not translate the game, and
> they were already paid for making the game.
It doesn't work like that, though, Frioniel. Square recieves payment for
their work in whatever form it takes. Since they concieved and designed
the game, they have the right to make money of that effort. It's not a
matter of recieving enough to make up for the effort, but recieving
payment for the effort put into the work from those who enjoy it.
> Hmm..well did J2E add all the stuff about Kain's father being a Dragoon as
> well? Did J2E add the stuff about KluYa founding Mysidia and Zemus building
> the Tower of Babil? If that wasn't in the original, then J2E needlessly
> improved my view of Square. Even if Square is moronic and left all of those
> things out, because J2E put them in, I think of FF4 as one of the best of the
> series (which doesn't hold up well because I'll say that about any of the
> others).
No, that was all in the original. The story itself is largely intact,
but I have major gripes about some of the decisions made in the script
(particularly the attempts to add humor, which invariably destroyed the
mood of the game).
> Well the first and only way I ever played FF5 was via emulator, so I had no
> experience with the "original" either.
Which is the point. Your opinion of FF5 is based on RPGe's script (and,
to a lesser extent, Mark Rosa's). That was very close to the original,
anyway: But what if they had done a poor job, or made an editorial
decision clashing with Square's intent? Your opinion of Square would be
colored by that. So how do you draw the line between "good changes" and
"bad changes"? Since such opinions are so subjective, can you even?
> Still, is there not ONE word in the English language that means "Nothingness"
> but is a tad easier on the tongue.
What's so hard about "Nothingness"? It's a perfectly straightforward
word.
> Yes, into the originals. However, this doesn't excuse the shoddy ports done of
> FF4 and 5.
The ports really weren't all that shoddy: Not all they could've been,
indeed, but they were relatively close to the originals (FF5 much better
handled than FF4, IMO, so they are getting their acts together).
> Yes but they gain tons of money for doing so. Fan don't much of anything aside
> from grief from people like you Sean.
And they don't really deserve anything. If you want to respect them for
it, fine, by all means. I know I respect those who do translations close
to the original. But fan translators are ostensibly doing their work
only as a hobby, and since they are essentially gaining fame, if not
money, off of the works of others, it only makes the use of editorial
changes, when they are made, all the more unforgivable.
> So you are saying that I should have stuck with J2E's first patch (with the 2US
> dialouge)? Blech, then call me a sinner and send me to hell because there is no
> way in the world I would force myself to play through such an utter piece of
> crap.
No. I'm saying J2e should've avoided second guessing what Square
intended to say (the various one liners). As it is, though their script
is better than Square's English version, I respect the latter because it
was made with the implicit support of the designers whilst the former
was not.
> So then both 3 AND 4 would lack translations. Nope, there is no way I'm EVER
> going to agree with that. Any translation is better than none.
I can't agree. You're playing with other people's reputations. That's a
serious issue, and it needs to be handled with serious thought. There's
an inherent greed in fandom, but let's remember that there was real
effort and, metaphorically, the blood and sweat of many put into the
original product. It's important to show respect for that, even if, as
you suggest, the creators themselves do not.
> Instead of
> complaining about J2E, why don't you translate the game better?
Lack of ability, really. Why do you think I've been playing around with
ROM hacking? :)
> Urge...to...kill...007....rising...
Is it now?
> Why do you keep bringing up a line we have both already agreed was stupid?
Because it's indicative of what I'm trying to prove. It was merely the
most outright howler of the changes made, but it wasn't the only one,
and illustrates how these sort of changes can utterly destroy the
original's intent.
> Then why would they both to change it in the first place? Why would anyone
> work on a project they didn't respect. Why go through the long hours to expand
> the spell and item names. I don't see how changing some stuff means that they
> don't care at all about the Japanese version.
Because it stops being an effort to legitimately bring the script to a
new audience and starts being an egotistical wish to "do better" then
the creators. Though I won't suggest that this is what motivated J2e,
it's certainly the end impression.
> I still don't see your argument here...
If you like the original game enough to translate it, why do you need to
make changes at all? If the effort put into the work by the creators was
what drew you to it to begin with, what is the purpose of second
guessing their phrasing and intent? If you like the game enough to
translate it, then you should respect the entire work and its creators
for the effort put into it.
> I didn't say that. However, the Original Producer isn't in charge of the
> shoddy ports.
No, but the original producer, or at least the original production
company, has at least some say in whether the game is ported or not.
They don't have that say as far as fan translations go.
> Which they've already been compensated for.
Wrong-o. An author recieves royalties for every time their work is
rebroadcast or reissued, and the company which designed the game makes
money from every commercial release of the game. Their compensation is
determined by the enjoyment fans derive from the game.
> However, you don't make all your money back plus some by buying a game.
No, because you don't put any creative effort into it.
> Companies like Nintendo and Sony make lots of money for paying for this
> "right".
Yep. And so does Square. And they don't always makes lots of money, in
any case: They only translate a game if they think it can make enough in
an American market to make up for the costs involved in obtaining the
rights.
> Correction, the previous statement was the SECOND most ridiculous thing I've
> ever heard you say. Obviously, had Square never released the games, period,
> then there would be no argument because no one would have known about them.
Then why'd you bring it up? Square never pushed into any such "desperate
measures," or whatever nonsense you're spewing. You act as if they've
wronged you by depriving you of the game you somehow "deserve," when if
they hadn't put the effort into it to begin with, you would lack even
the chance of an opportunity to enjoy it. You need to respect them for
creating the game to begin with: Whether or not they decide to translate
it is irrelevant.
> I'm not saying they owe me anything. I mean that it is their fault that they
> didn't release the game in the US. Therefore, I'm going to do everything in my
> power to play the game in English, regardless of the legal or MORAL issues.
Bullshit. You said Square forced you to take "desperate measures." They
did no such thing. You don't have a god-given right to play these games,
and suggesting that it's Square's "fault" for not wanting to release
their games in the US and therefore depriving you of such is idiotic:
They only make these decisions carefully. There's a reason behind what
they do.
By all means, exercise whatever's in your power to play the game, but
don't even begin to suggest that it's Square's fault. Any percieved
wrong they've committed to you is *far* offset by their bothering to
create the game in the first place.
> I am thankful of that. Whoop-dee-doo!
So you'd be happier if Square pressed charges on every fan translation
out there? Once again, you forget the very thin legal and moral line you
walk on.
> Like I said before, if I am mislead to believe that Square added all of the
> plot elements to J2E's FF4 (regardless of whether they did or not), then J2E
> needlessly improved Square's reputation. Of course, others may not like J2E's
> script and will therefore lose faith in Square because of this.
Exactly. It's all relative. Even though these plot elements were in the
original, let's assume, for a moment, that they weren't, and that they
were J2e's invention. In the case of a direct translation (or direct a
translation as possible) the work was Square's: Whether it worked or
failed was on their shoulders. When J2e makes the changes, the burden is
shifted largely to J2e itself, whilst Square still recieves most of the
credit.
And you can't assume your "improvements" will be viewed as such by all,
so those who would have preferred the original work but have been given
the wrong impression thanks to the translation are your responsibility,
not Square's, as it should be.
> o_O Square said they would NEVER release the games in the US. If they ever
> had any plans to, they shouldn't have made such a concrete statement.
Businesses change, Frioniel. Whether or not it was a very wise thing to
say aside, its still their legal and moral property.
> Well gee, J2E put their heart and effort into the game, yet they get no
> compensation for their effort.
Nor do they neccessarily deserve it, since they had no permission to
undertake such an endeavour to begin with. Let's say I translated your
FF Story fanfic to Yiddish, and, in the process, changed half the story.
You found out, complained, and I responded that I didn't get enough
compensation for my effort.
> All they get is the satisfaction of knowing
> that because of them, American gamers can play Final Fantasy IV now...and not
> FF2US.
Which is all they should. That, and personal interest/education, are the
only legit reasons for undertaking a fan translation project, IMO.
> Square has never given a care about American gamers. To them, if it's
> not super-good for Japan, it's certainly not good enough for us. That policy
> is sickening, so excuse me if I'm not really inclined to care what Square
> thinks of J2E's translation.
But it's their policy. It's their decision to make. You and I have
differing opinions on many things, but that doesn't excuse me changing
your work, or bypassing your decisions regarding them. It's like if I
were to say I didn't respect your wish to rework the Final Fantasy Story
and kept distributing the original work, which you have admitted to
wanting to rework (erm... I am actually... I have to get into the page
and take it down ASAP.)
> Yeah, it's called Square didn't bother to get off their ass and translate the
> game, so we will and dammit we can do what we want with it.
No, you can't. This is such utter bullshite that it *almost* doesn't
deserve a response. It was *THEIR* decision not to translate the game.
Your insistance that this gives you the right to do whatever you want
with it smacks of greed. Without getting into the head of the
developers, for all you know, the decision not to translate the game was
deliberate (as was originally the case with Xenogears). So, therefore,
where's the respect for the opinions and the work of the people who've
put their time and effort into the game?
> Uh huh. Also, I saw very little difference between Mark Rosa's script and
> RPGe's patch other than the changing of two other words, Cara and Void. That's
> all...
I know. So I don't make much of an issue of it. I was merely using it as
an example regarding Japanese-English translations.
> Then don't play the game Sean. Go learn Japanese (or do you already know
> Japanese?) and play the Japanese game or toddle off to play FF2US while the
> rest of us play Final Fantasy IV "Americanized".
You really are missing the point, Frioniel. The point is not
neccessarily how much I like it, but on how similar, or dissimilar it is
to the original. And since I tend to value the creative works of Square
Co., Ltd. well above that of J2E Translations, I will defend their works
against so blatant infringement of moral property.
> Right, but we shouldn't be looked down upon because we take it upon ourselves
> to do what Square was too damn lazy to do.
No, but you should be looked down upon for not realizing that the game
still belong to Square, and that changing it significantly is in no way
excusable.
> Quite frankly, with the release of
> all these non-FF games (SaGa Frontier, Xenogears, Parasite Eve) and after
> hearing you ramble on about how the original creator (do you even know their
> name?)
Depends on what we're talking about. I was using the impersonal sense
because this argument applies not only to FF games, but all video games,
produced by anyone.
> is so perfect,
My, haven't we missed the point? The point has never been that Square is
perfect, but that Square's work is Square's work, imperfections and all.
These failings are as much a part of the game as its successes, and all
are property of the company who created it.
> I've come to think that Square has degraded into little
> more than a money hungry company that cares little for its games or fans.
Square is a business, Frioniel. Businesses care about money. That's a
constant, no matter where you go. But that doesn't mean they can't take
an artistic and creative interest in what happens to their work.
> And they chose not to. Their mistake.
No, their decision. It was certainly no mistake in their eyes.
> So we did it ourselves. If they should
> be compensated for that by Americans they should have respected us enough to
> release the game here. They didn't, so it's their loss.
Your head is about to reach critical mass, Frioniel. Say it with me very
slowly: The game... is... property... of... Square. They... have...
the... right... to... decide... these... things... You... do... not.
> Umm...huh? Did you make a typo? SoM2 believe the "American" script should be
> maintained?
Back before the release of the "updated" script to J2E's FF4 release,
SoM2 was complaining about how the script to FF2US should be maintained.
I personally find that needlessly extreme.
> You sure seem to. You call RPGe's translation crap because they changed 3
> words while the perfect Mark Rosa only changed 1. Oh no!
No, I don't damn RPGe. I quite like their FF5 translation. I damn the
changes they made, but, as you yourself said, these are few. J2E, the
group largely in question, made several more changes.
> Depends on your point of view. I don't acknowledge any moral uncertainty about
> it.
Then you'd be wrong, or utterly immoral. There is a moral uncertainty
behind it. You can't presume to know why Square didn't want the original
work translated closely to begin with, so you are at least breaking that
implicit decision.
> Like you said, morally, changing the work period is wrong. J2E didn't change
> anything vital to the story. They even said so. They didn't make Rosa sleep
> with Golbez and then have Golbez turn out to be Cecil's father. They kept the
> story true to the original.
Nope, but they changed the dialogue in several instances in such a way
to ruin the mood of certain scenes. I know you don't want to talk about
the Shatner line, but it's an ideal example: That idiotic one-liner
reduced the entire, originally serious scene, to pantomine. They kept
the story intact, but destroyed the mood, which is just as important.
> I can already see it...::sigh::...
Frioniel: DAMNIT! SQUARE OWES ME! It's not FAIR! I have a RIGHT to play
ALL of their GAMES! I'm perfectly justified in destroying the original
because SQUARE HATES ME!
> Depends on the persons morals. Myself, unless I'm working off of someone
> else's translation, would not care one bit about take small liberties. If I'm
> translating the original Japanese version, I might decide to make some
> editorial changes. While you and the law might not agree, I consider that my
> right. That's not saying I would keep the storyline true to the original, but
> a few little liberties here and there would utterly ruin the game, as you seem
> to think.
You think that way. You can't assume that Square does. Let's say I wrote
a novel that had several lines I was particularly proud of. Some
rewrites it without permission, keeps the story intact, but changes all
of the lines I find which really make the work shine. The story may be
intact. The original work most definately is not.
> That's bologna. You have no way of getting inside their heads to know what
> they are thinking. Your words, Sean, not mine (well they are mine, NOW, but
> originally, you said it first).
Yep. But, like it or not, that's the impression they give off. I
wouldn't appreciate someone mangling my work, however noble their
reasons. It comes off as egotistical to replace someone elses words with
your own, plain and simple.
SailrMagus
Frioniel, I can definitely see where you're coming from. :) Back when I
first realized that I was missing out on a ton of RPG's that never got released
in America, it made me really mad. I kept thinking, how *dare* they constantly
hold back these wonderful RPG's that I love so much, while there seems to be no
shortage of boring, unoriginal, action games... so RPG's aren't completely
mainstream, there's so many dedicated fans who will eat up anything they send
us! And how can you get more fans if you don't release anything? I can't go
to Japan and get Japanese games! It's not fair!
....so then I started taking Japanese, and realized a very good reason for
not translating games into English all the time... it really is difficult.
Japanese grammar is completely different from English at times, so not only do
you have to know the meaning of the sentence, you have to deal with finding a
way to make it sound natural in English. Japanese can be extremely subtle and
expressive, and it has so many fascinating aspects to it, like the many
different levels of polite speech, that have absolutely no equivalent in
English. Once you start learning the way Japanese express things, it's
difficult to come up with something that sounds good in English, but doesn't
seem to have a completely different feel to it than the original Japanese
sentence.
Once for a friend's birthday, I took on the task of translating a Japanese
Slayers manga for her. Although I did my best, I knew the English was simply
sub-par. I not only felt a duty to have the story intact, but to have the feel
of the *language* intact, and most of the time, that's simply impossible. She
was happy to have something she could read, and since she doesn't know much
Japanese, the mangled English version *did* technically do more for her, but I
*know* how much better the story sounded, how much better each piece of
dialogue sounded, before it was taken out of its original language, and I
couldn't help but see my translation as a little embarassing... to myself for
turning a great manga into a relatively cheesy-sounding English version, and to
the authors of the original, if anyone else should find it, read it, and
misjudge it.
After I get out of art school, I'm hoping to make my own manga someday...
I'm already playing around with things like deciding which Japanese pronouns
best suit which character. Maybe by then I'll become fluent enough that I
could write some of my works in English *and* Japanese.... or even Japanese
first. And I would *hate* to have my work shoved into English and have all
that Japanese nuance that I'm infatuated with be completely lost. I would want
to make my own English version, thinking over each line myself, making
decisions about where equivalency takes precedence over accuracy that couldn't
be argued with. If I never got around to translating Manga X into English,
because I loved filling it with Japanese pronouns or polite speech too much and
couldn't find an acceptable way to adapt it, I would be disappointed, and I
would understand that English speakers would be disappointed as well, but no
one would have the right to call me *lazy* for it. Yes, it might have seemed
lazy when I only translated one episode out of a whole tankoubon of Slayers for
my friend, when I wanted to do the whole book, but it wasn't because I was
lazy, it was because I felt I wasn't doing the work any justice at all.
I can definitely understand being upset when a game isn't translated, :)
but hearing people say things like "I've come to think that Square has degraded
into little more than a money hungry company that cares little for its games or
fans." it really hurts me. That's a *very* harsh judgement to make if you
don't have a *very* good understanding of what's actually going on in the
company... if I ever do make it as a manga artist, I would be *deeply* wounded
if my desire for perfection in my work made people think such things of me.
...I think I said everything in here pretty nicely, but just in case I
said anything that sounded like it had some offense, Frioniel, it was an honest
mistake, just so you know. ;) I'm just trying to say you should have more
faith in Square... I once had my belief in them shaken when they "ditched
Nintendo", but oh, did I learn the error of my ways. <g>
-Mijae, Hierophant-at-large ^_^ |/.
(member of the anti-revivalist crusade)
akaroth
> ....so then I started taking Japanese, and realized a very good
> reason for not translating games into English all the time... it really
> is difficult. Japanese grammar is completely different from English at
> times, so not only do you have to know the meaning of the sentence, you
> have to deal with finding a way to make it sound natural in English.
> Japanese can be extremely subtle and expressive, and it has so many
> fascinating aspects to it, like the many different levels of polite
> speech, that have absolutely no equivalent in English. Once you start
> learning the way Japanese express things, it's difficult to come up
> with something that sounds good in English, but doesn't seem to have a
> completely different feel to it than the original Japanese sentence.
<snip>
After all this talk on translating, I'm beginning to think that
translating an RPG is actually a poor way to render it suitable for
another market. Depsite what Sean said about remaining true to the
original, I think it's best to hire a group (within the company if
possible) to rewrite the text in another language. I only know one RPG
this was done for - Earthbound - and as a result, the game feels very
'american' and the dialogue reads very well. Obviously, they still had
difficulty with some parts, but on the whole it's probably the best
conversion of a (_very_) Japanese game to an American one.
While respect for the original creators should definitely be given, when
the very act of translation may partially destroy the original intent I
think that hiring a group of storywriters fluent in japanese and english
to rewrite it is a far better alternative.
Interesting message, BTW.
--
akaroth
Romantic love is mental illness. But it's a pleasurable one. It's a
drug. It distorts reality, and that's the point of it. It would be
impossible to fall in love with someone that you really saw.
-Fran Lebowitz
Sean Daugherty
<aka...@geocities.com>, was heard saying:
> While respect for the original creators should definitely be given, when
> the very act of translation may partially destroy the original intent I
> think that hiring a group of storywriters fluent in japanese and english
> to rewrite it is a far better alternative.
I agree entirely, and this is a much better path. But when this isn't
possible (and, let's face it, it's a bit impractical as far as fan
translations go), I think it is important to stay as true to the
original as possible. It's still a great idea, though, and I wish more
commercial game designers would consider it.
SailrMagus
>After all this talk on translating, I'm beginning to think that
>translating an RPG is actually a poor way to render it suitable for
>another market. Depsite what Sean said about remaining true to the
>original, I think it's best to hire a group (within the company if
>possible) to rewrite the text in another language. I only know one RPG
>this was done for - Earthbound - and as a result, the game feels very
>'american' and the dialogue reads very well. Obviously, they still had
>difficulty with some parts, but on the whole it's probably the best
>conversion of a (_very_) Japanese game to an American one.
::nods:: Earthbound was a *wonderful* translation. In just about every RPG
I've ever played, I've always looked at the dialogue taking it with a hefty
grain of salt, assuming there must be things lost in translation, but when I
played Earthbound, I never thought about it all. :) There's a lot to be said
for equivalency in translation rather than pinpoint accuracy.
(well... actually, I do wonder what the Mr. Saturns sounded like in Japanese...
<g>)
Luke Drelick
>
> Sean Daugherty (sean...@erols.com) wrote:
> : On or about 7 Aug 1998 21:34:19 GMT, the accused,
> : ike...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Ian A Kelley), was heard saying:
>
> : > Ha! When I was in Boston at Square's table at a job fair, judging from the
> : > number of people making Ted Woolsey jokes there, I don't think that's a very
> : > accurate assertion...^_^
>
> : Indeed. But at least Square of Japan does have, in theory, some say over
> : the creation of these translations in the first place, unlike fan
> : translators.
>
> No they don't. They say "here, release this," then it's all in the hands
> of the US companies. That's how you get translations by idiots like Ted
> Woolsey who don't even have a grasp of basic Katakana rules,
>
I think I read that Working Designs does this, but don't the US
translators sometimes consult the original creators of the game when
they need help with some basic names, or something? I read an old
interview of Woolsey up at RPGamer, and he said he spent a lot of time
with the original creators of Seiken Densetsu 2 while translating.
I wouldn't really say Woolsey is the worst translator ever... IMO, the
translation for Robotrek is MUCH worse, probably the worst I've ever
seen.
> BTW: I am not just "stepping in and missing the point." I read this
> thread, or as much of it my news server had, before posting. And no
> offense, but it's kind of tough to figure out exactly what you're saying
> since you seem to be contradicting yourself so often...first you say that
> commercial translators' works are "sanctioned" and therefore better, (which
> quite frankly makes no sense to me) and now you're saying that you realize
> that the fan translators' are more accurate? Which one is it?
>
> : The one-liners were much of my complaint about the script. Particularly
> : in the case of the Shatner line, it completely changed the mood of the
> : scene, and, without digging through the game itself for the script,
> : there were several more similar circumstances.
>
> Yeah, I kind of have to agree with you there. I was kind of pissed off
> myself when I played the FF4 ROM and thought "Hey! I didn't put that in
> there!" In my script I Americanized it in that I made sound like normal
> English speaking but never threw any jokes in that weren't there. And BTW,
> even though the thrown-in one-liners were a bit much in the fan
> translations, they're nothing compared to the crap put in in say, Chrono
> Trigger or FF6's "official" translations...some of the stuff I saw there
> wanted to make me throw a brick through the screen...
Well, CT's "mood" was very lighthearted, so I found it OK (I admit, I
laughed when I saw the "Dumb" and "Dumber" guys), but FF6 is a real
serious, depressing as all hell game (and I'm not saying that because I
don't like the game, I'm saying that because it is), so IMO, guys who
imitate Beavis and Butthead have no place in it =P
IMO, there's a time in the game for everything... I am a bit for
Americanized humor, personally, as long as it doesn't detract from the
mood. Realistically, in a regular old town, a guy might say something
funny... But, if you see someone making Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky
sex jokes at a scene where a character dies, it's highly out of place.
--
_______THE_FUTURE_KICK_YOUR_ASS_________
| Luke Drelick | Star Ocean:The Second Story
| du...@worldnet.att.net | tri-Ace/Enix/Links
| JieRevors on AIM | Only On PlayStation(tm)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RPG Ocean: http://lunarnet.simplenet.com/rpgocean
E-Soft: http://lunarnet.simplenet.com/esoft
tri-Ace: http://www.tri-ace.com
Sean Daugherty
<du...@worldnet.att.net>, was heard saying:
> > No they don't. They say "here, release this," then it's all in the hands
> > of the US companies. That's how you get translations by idiots like Ted
> > Woolsey who don't even have a grasp of basic Katakana rules,
Mm-hmm. And if you'd been paying attention, I've already aknowledged
that. But at least they have the power to say "here, release this" to
begin with. No one can commercially release the game without their
permission. I also don't approve of mangling the original script, but it
has a shred of legitimacy that fan translations can never have.
> > Oh, do you? How many original Japanese versions of games have you played and
> > understood? What I'm trying to say is until you've played both versions,
> > AND understood them, you're not seeing the whole all of the picture. I've
> > played both FF6 and the US FF3, for example, so I feel all right saying that
> > Ted Woolsey's an idiot and possibly the worst game translator ever, (which he
> > is, probably) but had only seen one version I wouldn't say a thing because
> > I'd know that I'd be going off of hearsay at best. To criticize a
> > translation in any way, shape, or form seems inappropriate to me if you
> > haven't seen and understood both; you don't really have any grounding behind
> > your criticisms because you've only seen part of the picture.
I've understood a good deal of Final Fantasy IV: Though I don't claim
for a moment to have a perfect working grasp of the game, my knowledge
of katakana was solid enough to get me through the game, particularly as
the had the help of various friends. I don't have enough knowledge to
translate the game myself, but I understand enough Japanese to know
there are some scenes and snippets of dialogue which are utterly and
completely mishandled (most of which do revolve around the damnable one
liners).
> > BTW: I am not just "stepping in and missing the point." I read this
> > thread, or as much of it my news server had, before posting. And no
> > offense, but it's kind of tough to figure out exactly what you're saying
> > since you seem to be contradicting yourself so often...first you say that
> > commercial translators' works are "sanctioned"
They are. Square has the initial right to step in and say "translate
this," or, if they prefer "don't touch this." They don't have direct say
over the translation, and though I don't neccessarily like it, at least
it's something they are aware of and have the ability to consider up
front.
> > and therefore better, (which
> > quite frankly makes no sense to me) and now you're saying that you realize
> > that the fan translators' are more accurate? Which one is it?
Both. I *expect* fan translations to be infinately more accurate. If Ted
Woolsey's translation of FF6 were carried out in the fan translation
scene, I'd be down his throat in a second. Because Square does not have
even the *pretense* of a say in a fan translation, I expect the
translator to at least show the decency to remain as true as possible to
the original. Suggesting that merely because commercial businesses do
lousy translations with a minimum of respect for the original work
forgives "liberties" on a fan translator's part is, IMO, utter nonsense.
> > Yeah, I kind of have to agree with you there. I was kind of pissed off
> > myself when I played the FF4 ROM and thought "Hey! I didn't put that in
> > there!" In my script I Americanized it in that I made sound like normal
> > English speaking but never threw any jokes in that weren't there. And BTW,
> > even though the thrown-in one-liners were a bit much in the fan
> > translations, they're nothing compared to the crap put in in say, Chrono
> > Trigger or FF6's "official" translations...some of the stuff I saw there
> > wanted to make me throw a brick through the screen...
*AHEM*Working Designs*AHEM* :)
I know, and again, I don't like that, either. But I'm willing to forgive
it, to a degree (though it in no way helps my opinion of the
translator), because Square, ostensibly, knew what they were getting
into (or at least that opportunity) from the start.
They don't have a direct say over the translation, and, indeed, in a
practical sense it's a bit silly to suggest that they can, but they can
choose who handles it (by association, since Square controls, or should
control, their own divisions) or whether to release it or not to begin
with (as they original were reluctant to release a translation of
Xenogears for ostensibly cultural reasons.)
I also don't totally condemn J2e, though I might give that impression. I
appreciate the effort they put into the work, and I know that they do
respect the original (even if I question their way of showing it).
> IMO, there's a time in the game for everything... I am a bit for
> Americanized humor, personally, as long as it doesn't detract from the
> mood. Realistically, in a regular old town, a guy might say something
> funny... But, if you see someone making Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky
> sex jokes at a scene where a character dies, it's highly out of place.
My secondary gripe with the various one-liners in FF4e is that they are
extremely forced: The Shatner line, in particular, seems to be trolling
for a laugh and almost reduces the entire scene to pantomime. At least
Working Designs manages to integrate their various one-liners into the
game, whilst in J2e's case, they seem grafted on (probably because they
were <g>).
Ismail 'Slipgate' Saeed
>
> On or about Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:48:50 -0400, the accused, Ismail
> 'Slipgate' Saeed <slip...@planetquake.com>, was heard saying:
>
> > A lot of translations are in progress, so you can't criticize them that
> > easily. Anyways, FF5 is completely translated, go to
> > http://rpge.home.ml.org and get THAT patch. If you find it a bit
> > Americanish, its because the game is in your opinion, not the
> > translation, because that particular translation is rather neutral.
>
> Yeah, the Final Fantasy V translation is probably the closest to the
> original game of any fan translations (thanks to, in Frioniel's words,
> raging "traditionalist" SoM2Freak), and most all of the changes are
> relatively minor (if annoying, particularly changing Kururu/Krile to
> translation grates on me immensely: I *almost* prefer the original FF2US
> script...
>
J2E's work impressed me when I first saw the webpage because I did not
know at the time about the plot removal/easytype/etc. I was totally out
of it for a day when I realized the game I had loved so much was a milk
down of a milk down. When I tried J2e's thing though, at first there
were little things, I ignored. By the time I beat the game though, it
really REALLY grated on me too. At this point I only respect it for the
plot element available that was removed from FF2US, and the abilities
the characters had that were similarly removed (Dwave is pretty useful
as long as you don't overdo it, and Boast and Tears is helpful, etc.).
Slipgate
Ismail 'Slipgate' Saeed
>
> On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 04:35:32 GMT, sean...@erols.com (Sean Daugherty)
> wrote:
>
> >original game of any fan translations (thanks to, in Frioniel's words,
> >raging "traditionalist" SoM2Freak), and most all of the changes are
> >relatively minor (if annoying, particularly changing Kururu/Krile to
> >Cara).
>
> Personally, I wouldn't have been able to take the Cara character
> seriously if her name was Kururu. In Japanese, that may be a perfectly
> nice-sounding name, but it sounds like incoherent gibberish in English.
>
> -Jesse
You are unable to take Kururu seriously but you can take Butz seriously?
Slipgate
Frioniel
Sean. Also, you aren't quite so redundant and stubborn. Anyhow, here comes me
reply.
> Frioniel, I can definitely see where you're coming from. :) Back when
>I
>first realized that I was missing out on a ton of RPG's that never got
>released
>in America, it made me really mad. I kept thinking, how *dare* they
>constantly
>hold back these wonderful RPG's that I love so much, while there seems to be
>no
>shortage of boring, unoriginal, action games... so RPG's aren't completely
>mainstream, there's so many dedicated fans who will eat up anything they send
>us! And how can you get more fans if you don't release anything? I can't go
>to Japan and get Japanese games! It's not fair!
Well thanks for understanding.
> ....so then I started taking Japanese, and realized a very good reason
>for
>not translating games into English all the time... it really is difficult.
Difficult but not impossible.
>Japanese grammar is completely different from English at times, so not only
>do
>you have to know the meaning of the sentence, you have to deal with finding a
>way to make it sound natural in English.
Well, if Nintendo and Square would have thought a bit more artistically and
less economically (more the big N's fault than the big S'), they could have
expanded the cartridge size to allow for a broader translation.
Japanese can be extremely subtle
>and
>expressive, and it has so many fascinating aspects to it, like the many
>different levels of polite speech, that have absolutely no equivalent in
>English. Once you start learning the way Japanese express things, it's
>difficult to come up with something that sounds good in English, but doesn't
>seem to have a completely different feel to it than the original Japanese
>sentence.
Well, what we don't know can't hurt us, right?
I would love to learn Japanese. Unfortunately I can't because they only teach
Spanish (BLECH!) here in Texas.
> Once for a friend's birthday, I took on the task of translating a
>Japanese
>Slayers manga for her. Although I did my best, I knew the English was simply
>sub-par. I not only felt a duty to have the story intact, but to have the
>feel
>of the *language* intact, and most of the time, that's simply impossible.
>She
>was happy to have something she could read, and since she doesn't know much
>Japanese, the mangled English version *did* technically do more for her, but
>I
>*know* how much better the story sounded, how much better each piece of
>dialogue sounded, before it was taken out of its original language, and I
>couldn't help but see my translation as a little embarassing... to myself for
>turning a great manga into a relatively cheesy-sounding English version, and
>to
>the authors of the original, if anyone else should find it, read it, and
>misjudge it.
Hmm...I see you point there. However, I didn't find any of the games all that
cheesy sounding. Really the only *cheesy* aspect of FFIV (J2E's) was the
William Shatner line and the annoying swearing fights between Cid and Edge
which sounded a little (sorry to offend and fellow countrymen) TOO American. I
like Final Fantasy because it is respectable and NOT like daily American life.
So when J2E released their FF4 and Square released FF7, some of that dreaminess
was lost. The thing that angered me most about J2E's translation besides the
Shatner thing is when Edge says, "Let's kick some ass!" Then Rydia says, "So
that's how a typical man acts, huh? His vocabulary is limited to various
grunts and curse words...Before we do any 'ass-kicking' we better blah, blah,
blah, blah." That demonstrated two American stereotypes I absolutely hate:
1) The loser, bum, *typical* male and..
2) The *typical* bitchy female who has an inferiority complex towards men.
I absolutely refuse that all humans have degraded to this stereotype. I know
that I haven't. So when J2E put in those lines to "Americanize" it, I was a
little disgusted. However, the rest of the game was very well done so I forgave
those instances. In no way did I say (SEAN!), "Gee, Square makes this sound
like a B-grade comedy film..."
> After I get out of art school, I'm hoping to make my own manga
>someday...
>I'm already playing around with things like deciding which Japanese pronouns
>best suit which character. Maybe by then I'll become fluent enough that I
>could write some of my works in English *and* Japanese.... or even Japanese
>first. And I would *hate* to have my work shoved into English and have all
>that Japanese nuance that I'm infatuated with be completely lost. I would
>want
>to make my own English version, thinking over each line myself, making
>decisions about where equivalency takes precedence over accuracy that
>couldn't
>be argued with. If I never got around to translating Manga X into English,
>because I loved filling it with Japanese pronouns or polite speech too much
>and
>couldn't find an acceptable way to adapt it, I would be disappointed, and I
>would understand that English speakers would be disappointed as well, but no
>one would have the right to call me *lazy* for it. Yes, it might have seemed
>lazy when I only translated one episode out of a whole tankoubon of Slayers
>for
>my friend, when I wanted to do the whole book, but it wasn't because I was
>lazy, it was because I felt I wasn't doing the work any justice at all.
I see your point. Why 007 could never bring up such points, I don't know, but
you have made me realize your point. However, you are fluent in both Japanese
and English, right? You are the original writer, correct? So you know the
story, right? If your native language is English and you wrote the story in
Japanese, would it not make sense that you know the full and total story in
English as well? You might have to play around with the language and/or
tactfully expand the explainations, but you could do it. Of course, this
doesn't really apply to Square since their native language is Japanese.
However, why couldn't an American, fluent in Japanese (Ian Kelley comes to
mind) take the original script and re-write it to make sense in English? We
are assuming that in this situation, Ian Kelley has Square's permission to
OFFICIALLY port the game. Ah well, this is an entirely different subject
entirely and is more of a Final Fantasy Gold-type argument since it implies a
re-write and not a "translation" per se.
> I can definitely understand being upset when a game isn't translated, :)
>but hearing people say things like "I've come to think that Square has
>degraded
>into little more than a money hungry company that cares little for its games
>or
>fans." it really hurts me. That's a *very* harsh judgement to make if you
>don't have a *very* good understanding of what's actually going on in the
>company... if I ever do make it as a manga artist, I would be *deeply*
>wounded
>if my desire for perfection in my work made people think such things of me.
True, I was a bit harsh (A little? Don't make me laugh). I'm not referring to
Square's decision not to release the games in the past. I'm referring to the
here and now--the fact that Square seems to pump out any game regardless of
quality and toss it to some inexperienced translator to trash. Maybe that is
why we missed out on FF2-5, huh? They didn't want their great games messed up
by some idiot who can't translate. Well, I guess since Japan is the main
market for Square, they wouldn't really care that much if their reputation was
squished in America. Funny thing is, even with all these really BAD
translations, Square is becoming much more popular in America.
> ...I think I said everything in here pretty nicely, but just in case I
>said anything that sounded like it had some offense, Frioniel, it was an
>honest
>mistake, just so you know. ;) I'm just trying to say you should have more
>faith in Square... I once had my belief in them shaken when they "ditched
>Nintendo", but oh, did I learn the error of my ways. <g>
Naw, you were very polite, unlike Sean. However, with Sean, he gets snotty
because I get rude (that and he's SOOOO stubborn). The reason I get irritated
with Sean is that he tends to repeat the same thing over and over...Ah well,
you are very nice, Mijae. I was ENRAGED at Square for leaving Nintendo,
slamming FF7 before its release, the works, but I too came to realize WHY they
did it. I would still like to see FF1-3 remade for the N64, due to the N64's
flexibility and potential, but for 4-7, PSX would be more optimum.
> -Mijae, Hierophant-at-large ^_^ |/.
> (member of the anti-revivalist crusade)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
Frioniel
>After all this talk on translating, I'm beginning to think that
>translating an RPG is actually a poor way to render it suitable for
>another market. Depsite what Sean said about remaining true to the
>original, I think it's best to hire a group (within the company if
>possible) to rewrite the text in another language. I only know one RPG
>this was done for - Earthbound - and as a result, the game feels very
>'american' and the dialogue reads very well. Obviously, they still had
>difficulty with some parts, but on the whole it's probably the best
>conversion of a (_very_) Japanese game to an American one.
>
>the very act of translation may partially destroy the original intent I
>think that hiring a group of storywriters fluent in japanese and english
>to rewrite it is a far better alternative.
>
>
See! I TOLD you all I liked Akaroth. Again, we see eye to eye. Fo ho ho! I
just hope that Sean accept that we think differently and will drop this. I
really didn't intend for this to turn into another debate (especially since the
FF4 vs. FF5 one just died down) but that's the way it happened. Sorry to drag
you into it, Akaroth.
Frioniel
>I agree entirely, and this is a much better path. But when this isn't
>possible (and, let's face it, it's a bit impractical as far as fan
>translations go), I think it is important to stay as true to the
>original as possible. It's still a great idea, though, and I wish more
>commercial game designers would consider it.
Impractical for Fan Translator, yes. Wow, Sean, I never thought that YOU would
have agreed to an official re-write (not that one was ever done in FF
retrospect). Whoa...this subject is finally over...thank GOD!
SailrMagus
>First thing I've got so say, Mijae, is that you are MUCH more agreeable than
>Sean. Also, you aren't quite so redundant and stubborn. Anyhow, here comes
>me reply.
Well thank you. :) (I *am* stubborn though, you just don't have a good
enough example yet... ::grins evilly::)
<snip snip>
>> ....so then I started taking Japanese, and realized a very good reason
>>for
>>not translating games into English all the time... it really is difficult.
>
>Difficult but not impossible.
>
>>Japanese grammar is completely different from English at times, so not only
>>do
>>you have to know the meaning of the sentence, you have to deal with finding a
>>way to make it sound natural in English.
>Well, if Nintendo and Square would have thought a bit more artistically and
>less economically (more the big N's fault than the big S'), they could have
>expanded the cartridge size to allow for a broader translation.
I thought I heard someone on here say once that Square *did* think about
expanding the cartridge size, but Nintendo didn't like the idea... hm....
>>Japanese can be extremely subtle
>>and
>>expressive, and it has so many fascinating aspects to it, like the many
>>different levels of polite speech, that have absolutely no equivalent in
>>English. Once you start learning the way Japanese express things, it's
>>difficult to come up with something that sounds good in English, but doesn't
>>seem to have a completely different feel to it than the original Japanese
>>sentence.
>
>Well, what we don't know can't hurt us, right?
>I would love to learn Japanese. Unfortunately I can't because they only teach
>Spanish (BLECH!) here in Texas.
Yeah, my school didn't have Japanese either... I wasn't able to actually
get into a class until this year, my last year of high school, when I had
enough free time to sign up for a college course instead. So with buying
dictionaries and kanji guides and all other sorts of books, and of course,
subtitled anime, it was *not* cheap to get started on Japanese on my own... <g>
(But when you have the motivation of an otaku, bumming off your friends for
lunch and owing your brother money is nothing ;)
<snip some more..!>
>Hmm...I see you point there. However, I didn't find any of the games all that
>cheesy sounding. Really the only *cheesy* aspect of FFIV (J2E's) was the
>William Shatner line and the annoying swearing fights between Cid and Edge
>which sounded a little (sorry to offend and fellow countrymen) TOO American.
I
>like Final Fantasy because it is respectable and NOT like daily American life.
>So when J2E released their FF4 and Square released FF7, some of that
>dreaminess
>was lost. The thing that angered me most about J2E's translation besides the
>Shatner thing is when Edge says, "Let's kick some ass!" Then Rydia says, "So
>that's how a typical man acts, huh? His vocabulary is limited to various
>grunts and curse words...Before we do any 'ass-kicking' we better blah, blah,
>blah, blah." That demonstrated two American stereotypes I absolutely hate:
Sheesh. I haven't been able to play this particular translation yet.... ;)
But I'm definitely scared now, from all the things I've heard. <g>
<snip again, man I wrote a lot... ;)>
>I see your point. Why 007 could never bring up such points, I don't know, but
>you have made me realize your point. However, you are fluent in both Japanese
>and English, right? You are the original writer, correct? So you know the
>story, right?
Well, no, I'm not *fluent* in Japanese by a long shot.. ^_^; Well, not
*yet* anyway. ;) I've got the grammar and fun stuff down, I just need to
pound vocabulary and kanji into my head...... ;)
>If your native language is English and you wrote the story in
>Japanese, would it not make sense that you know the full and total story in
>English as well?
Yes, but the way I'm thinking of my latest story is kind of weird. ;)
I've had a lot of fun thinking up classifying statistics for all my characters,
like zodiac signs, tarot types, elements, and of course, which Japanese pronoun
they would use. A lot of times when I imagine what I want going on in the
story, I know I wouldn't be able to write it in Japanese, I have to stick with
English to know what's happening. But sometimes, when I imagine a more
dramatic scene... I'll just have fun thinking about the details of how it would
be said in Japanese... how in one scene, the hero, who normally speaks
politely, starts breaking out the informal masculine speech, and it's the first
time you ever see him mad... <g> And when I try and put the same events into
English, oh, it sounds *awful*.... ^_^;
>You might have to play around with the language and/or
>tactfully expand the explainations, but you could do it.
Yeah, now I'm just whining. <g>
>Of course, this doesn't really apply to Square since their native language is
>Japanese. However, why couldn't an American, fluent in Japanese (Ian Kelley
>comes to mind) take the original script and re-write it to make sense in
English? >We are assuming that in this situation, Ian Kelley has Square's
permission to
>OFFICIALLY port the game. Ah well, this is an entirely different subject
>entirely and is more of a Final Fantasy Gold-type argument since it implies a
>re-write and not a "translation" per se.
>
>> I can definitely understand being upset when a game isn't translated, :)
>>but hearing people say things like "I've come to think that Square has
>>degraded
>>into little more than a money hungry company that cares little for its games
>>or
>>fans." it really hurts me. That's a *very* harsh judgement to make if you
>>don't have a *very* good understanding of what's actually going on in the
>>company... if I ever do make it as a manga artist, I would be *deeply*
>>wounded
>>if my desire for perfection in my work made people think such things of me.
>
>True, I was a bit harsh (A little? Don't make me laugh). I'm not referring
to
>Square's decision not to release the games in the past. I'm referring to the
>here and now--
Yeah, I know. I've seen a lot of other people saying that lately... mostly
because of FF7 being more mainstream and all..
>the fact that Square seems to pump out any game regardless of
>quality and toss it to some inexperienced translator to trash. Maybe that is
>why we missed out on FF2-5, huh? They didn't want their great games messed
>up
>by some idiot who can't translate. Well, I guess since Japan is the main
>market for Square, they wouldn't really care that much if their reputation was
>squished in America. Funny thing is, even with all these really BAD
>translations, Square is becoming much more popular in America.
Well, since the translations weren't that great in the past either, at least we
know it isn't cause and *effect*... <g>
>> ...I think I said everything in here pretty nicely, but just in case I
>>said anything that sounded like it had some offense, Frioniel, it was an
>>honest
>>mistake, just so you know. ;) I'm just trying to say you should have more
>>faith in Square... I once had my belief in them shaken when they "ditched
>>Nintendo", but oh, did I learn the error of my ways. <g>
>
>Naw, you were very polite, unlike Sean. However, with Sean, he gets snotty
>because I get rude (that and he's SOOOO stubborn). The reason I get irritated
>with Sean is that he tends to repeat the same thing over and over...
Well, that was only one post I had made so far, at that point...... <g> I
thought you *liked* Sean though! ;) I like Sean...
>Ah well, you are very nice, Mijae. I was ENRAGED at Square for leaving
>Nintendo, slamming FF7 before its release, the works, but I too came to
realize >WHY they did it. I would still like to see FF1-3 remade for the N64,
due to the >N64's flexibility and potential, but for 4-7, PSX would be more
optimum.
Yeah, if anything, I'm starting to get ideas that *Nintendo* is becoming
an evil, money-hungry company.... <g> Well, the N64 is still a good platform,
just not for RPG's is all, and I still love Miyamoto-sensei, Zelda's gonna be
awesome. ;) But I'm getting damn sick of those monkey games. ;)
Frioniel
>Well, that was only one post I had made so far, at that point...... <g> I
>thought you *liked* Sean though! ;) I like Sean...
>
I do like Sean. It's just that he can be very annoying and repetitive! HEAR
THAT SEAN! REPETIVE! ANNOYING! (Same could be said about you so I'd shut me
mouth if I were you) You are me, you idiot. So shut your mouth! (You're
mean...){Now THAT's the Frioniel I like...heh heh...}
>
>I thought I heard someone on here say once that Square *did* think about
>expanding the cartridge size, but Nintendo didn't like the idea... hm....
I know, Nintendo's mistake...grr...
> Yeah, if anything, I'm starting to get ideas that *Nintendo* is becoming
>an evil, money-hungry company....
The only more evil company than Sony would be Microsoft....(IMO)...DIE
MICROSOFT! DIEEEE!!!!!
>Well, the N64 is still a good platform,
>just not for RPG's is all,
Not the kind of RPG's that Square is releasing lately. However, the
possibilities for a remake of the first three...are...*endless*!
>I still love Miyamoto-sensei, Zelda's gonna be
>awesome. ;)
Miyamoto is my single favorite producer ever. His approach and ideals about
game design are truly note-worthy. He deserved the first of its kind award he
got ^_^
>But I'm getting damn sick of those monkey games. ;)
Donkey Kong Coutnry? DKC2 was my favorite. Still Diddy Kong Racing and such
is a BIT excessive, no?
By the way Mijae, are you male or female? You sound more like a girl. If you
ARE a guy, I'm sorry but that's probably a compliment since I find most guys
are really annoying and chauvanist. People who break the FF4 stereotype are
cool-beans!
>
>Sheesh. I haven't been able to play this particular translation yet.... ;)
>But I'm definitely scared now, from all the things I've heard. <g>
Oh no. Play it. Go forth and play, said the God of Goo. It is really great,
just some parts made me cringe.
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> 2) The *typical* bitchy female who has an inferiority complex towards men.
That would be a *superiority* complex, wouldn't it? :)
> I absolutely refuse that all humans have degraded to this stereotype. I know
> that I haven't. So when J2E put in those lines to "Americanize" it, I was a
> little disgusted. However, the rest of the game was very well done so I forgave
> those instances. In no way did I say (SEAN!), "Gee, Square makes this sound
> like a B-grade comedy film..."
They certainly try to (yet still do better than, say, Ted Woolsey <g>).
And it's not that I don't like the script: I've said repeatedly that I
do. It's just that the changes to the dialogue bother me immensely.
Sean Daugherty
(Frioniel), was heard saying:
> >I thought I heard someone on here say once that Square *did* think about
> >expanding the cartridge size, but Nintendo didn't like the idea... hm....
>
> I know, Nintendo's mistake...grr...
Actually, this wouldn't have been so bad had Nintendo not been
mind-bogglingly late: There was far too much dead time between the fall
of the SNES and the release of the N64. That, far more than sticking
with cartridges, or limiting cartridge size, or anything else, really,
was what put Nintendo into its present predicament.
Not that I'm particularly fond of Nintendo, in any case. They've been
historically awful to their third party developers, and at times I
seriously question their business practices. Say what you will about
Sony, but at least they have the common sense to realize that their
third party developers are the lifeblood of any system, something
Nintendo has seemingly forgot.
> Not the kind of RPG's that Square is releasing lately. However, the
> possibilities for a remake of the first three...are...*endless*!
I'll go as far to say I've enjoyed Square's non-Final Fantasy output
more than their Final Fantasy games (save Tactics): SaGa Frontier had
the gameplay I felt was lacking from FF7, from what I've seen of
Xenogears, it's tackling the sort of story I'd love to see more of, etc.
> Donkey Kong Coutnry? DKC2 was my favorite. Still Diddy Kong Racing and such
> is a BIT excessive, no?
I never liked the DKC series. Come to think of it, I haven't really
liked much of Rare's output at all, which seems to be the ultimate
instance of style over substance.
Frioniel
>That would be a *superiority* complex, wouldn't it? :)
>
Aw...crap...you...you got me...pardner...
>
>They certainly try to (yet still do better than, say, Ted Woolsey <g>).
>And it's not that I don't like the script: I've said repeatedly that I
>do. It's just that the changes to the dialogue bother me immensely.
>
>
>They certainly try to (yet still do better than, say, Ted Woolsey <g>).
>And it's not that I don't like the script: I've said repeatedly that I
>do. It's just that the changes to the dialogue bother me immensely.
>
WHAT!? ALL THOSE LONG WINDED POSTS FOR NOTHING WHEN WE AGREED THE WHOLE TIME!?
AHHHHHHHHH!!!!! NOOOOOO!!!
...
...
...
...
...
Phew! I'm glad THAT's over. At least in the end we got stuff resolved...with
you going away and me losing my account temporarily...oh, and thanks for taking
my crappy story off the Home Page!
SailrMagus
extra unanswered questions. ;)
Frioniel writes:
>>But I'm getting damn sick of those monkey games. ;)
>
>Donkey Kong Coutnry? DKC2 was my favorite. Still Diddy Kong Racing and >such
>is a BIT excessive, no?
I've played Diddy Kong Racing... it was okay, I suppose, but those
*bosses*... *God* they were frustrating!! ^_^; And near the end of the game,
the normal races got really frustrating... I never did find that fourth key...
and we won't get *started* on Wizpig. (what kind of a villain is a "Wizpig"
anyway? How dorky... ^_^) But most of all, the *constant* playing of that
dinky little theme music, redone in *infinite* new annoying ways....
::cringes:: Horrifying. ^_^;
>By the way Mijae, are you male or female? You sound more like a girl. If you
>ARE a guy, I'm sorry but that's probably a compliment since I find most guys
>are really annoying and chauvanist. People who break the FF4 stereotype are
>cool-beans!
Nope, sorry, I'm a woman. ;)
Nejimakidori
sean...@erols.com (Sean Daugherty) wrote:
> They don't have a direct say over the translation, and, indeed, in a
> practical sense it's a bit silly to suggest that they can, but they can
> choose who handles it (by association, since Square controls, or should
> control, their own divisions) or whether to release it or not to begin
> with (as they original were reluctant to release a translation of
> Xenogears for ostensibly cultural reasons.)
This isn't true. Please don't perpetuate this false rumor.
marketing
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Plague 200
>In article <35ce0843...@news.erols.com>,
> sean...@erols.com (Sean Daugherty) wrote:
>
>> They don't have a direct say over the translation, and, indeed, in a
>> practical sense it's a bit silly to suggest that they can, but they can
>> choose who handles it (by association, since Square controls, or should
>> control, their own divisions) or whether to release it or not to begin
>> with (as they original were reluctant to release a translation of
>> Xenogears for ostensibly cultural reasons.)
>
> This isn't true. Please don't perpetuate this false rumor.
>
> marketing
::Pullingout hair:: WHy do you sign everything marketing
"Those who live wish to die Those who die wish to live"
"I am fear that I am ordinary just like everyone" Smashing Pumpkins
"Sometimes I think I shouldn't think at all, because in the end I just screw
myself over"
Offical Italian of AGFF
White Knight
Frioniel
>Nope, sorry, I'm a woman. ;)
>
Well see, that's great. I just didn't want to offend you if turned out to be a
really rare guy. Feminie wisdom is much more appreciated (or I think so).
Frioniel
>::Pullingout hair:: WHy do you sign everything marketing
>
Heh heh...I agree with that one. Marketing always bugged the heckle-be-neckle
out of me!
Sean Daugherty
<s99...@jinx.umsl.edu>, was heard saying:
> > (as they original were reluctant to release a translation of
> > Xenogears for ostensibly cultural reasons.)
>
> This isn't true. Please don't perpetuate this false rumor.
Wasn't that the reason they had given at last year's E3? Whether or not
they meant it isn't relevant to this discussion.
Charon
> In article <199808090525...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> plag...@aol.com (Plague 200) wrote:
>
> > ::Pullingout hair:: WHy do you sign everything marketing
>
> I make a lot of money selling wigs.
>
> marketing
At least he doesn't sell fine leather coats.
Charon
-------
Warm...
-------
Nejimakidori
> ::Pullingout hair:: WHy do you sign everything marketing
I make a lot of money selling wigs.
marketing
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Ian A Kelley
: Mm-hmm. And if you'd been paying attention, I've already aknowledged
: that. But at least they have the power to say "here, release this" to
: begin with. No one can commercially release the game without their
: permission. I also don't approve of mangling the original script, but it
: has a shred of legitimacy that fan translations can never have.
How is that? What more legitimacy is there to a mangled translation if
it's being produced officially than if it's a fan translation? Because
the people who made it commercially got paid for it? Because the company
name is on it? If anything, I think they should be reprimanded MORE for
mangling the script; if they are getting paid for what they are doing and
slapping the company name of their translations, they had better damn
well be faithful to the original script. Whereas fan translation groups
put all the work into the game that the US companies do during
translations, but get nothing out of it at all.
: I've understood a good deal of Final Fantasy IV: Though I don't claim
: for a moment to have a perfect working grasp of the game, my knowledge
: of katakana was solid enough to get me through the game, particularly as
: the had the help of various friends. I don't have enough knowledge to
: translate the game myself, but I understand enough Japanese to know
: there are some scenes and snippets of dialogue which are utterly and
: completely mishandled (most of which do revolve around the damnable one
: liners).
You're gonna need to know a lot more than just the Katakana to get
through FF4. ;) And I guarantee you that any mishandled text would be
around the one-liners, because there are no accuracy screwups; the text
of the game is too straightforward. It only took me 6 hours to finish
translating it, and that counts typing time of the English text. There
was nothing in there I even had to think twice about.
: They are. Square has the initial right to step in and say "translate
: this," or, if they prefer "don't touch this." They don't have direct say
: over the translation, and though I don't neccessarily like it, at least
: it's something they are aware of and have the ability to consider up
: front.
Come on now. Are they REALLY going to go in and say "don't touch this?"
They're out to make money. A translated game is going to be better than
none at all. The only reason Square would tell a US branch not to release
a game would be because they wouldn't sell, not because of translations.
: Both. I *expect* fan translations to be infinately more accurate. If Ted
: Woolsey's translation of FF6 were carried out in the fan translation
: scene, I'd be down his throat in a second. Because Square does not have
: even the *pretense* of a say in a fan translation, I expect the
: translator to at least show the decency to remain as true as possible to
: the original. Suggesting that merely because commercial businesses do
: lousy translations with a minimum of respect for the original work
: forgives "liberties" on a fan translator's part is, IMO, utter nonsense.
So a *pretense* is enough to give commercial translators an edge? An
"implied" sanctioning that doesn't even exist? The Square of Japan guys
are *furious* over the translations that FF6, SD2, and CT got out. I have
a hard time imagining that they're "sanctioning" them.
: *AHEM*Working Designs*AHEM* :)
:
The bane of all translation purists! How ironic that I know more than 3
times as many Kanji as Victor Ireland, yet game companies blow me off
without so much as seeing a translation sample 'cause I'm not a native
speaker...*grumble*
: I know, and again, I don't like that, either. But I'm willing to forgive
: it, to a degree (though it in no way helps my opinion of the
: translator), because Square, ostensibly, knew what they were getting
: into (or at least that opportunity) from the start.
Hey, don't hold it against me, I didn't throw in a single joke. ;)
: They don't have a direct say over the translation, and, indeed, in a
: practical sense it's a bit silly to suggest that they can, but they can
: choose who handles it (by association, since Square controls, or should
: control, their own divisions) or whether to release it or not to begin
: with (as they original were reluctant to release a translation of
: Xenogears for ostensibly cultural reasons.)
Well, they do now, which is why they closed Square US. Our resident head
honcho of Square USA thought he could do all the translation
: I also don't totally condemn J2e, though I might give that impression. I
: appreciate the effort they put into the work, and I know that they do
: respect the original (even if I question their way of showing it).
Despite their throwing in of the one-liners, I really think that J2E is
probably the best fan translating group out there. I was really psyched
when they respected my request to keep the original spell and character
names intact despite the large amount of protests of people who wanted to
see Fire 1, 2, and 3, etc. (I still have to fight off the flames from that
one) Whereas when I tried to help De-jap on the spell names and suggested
to use the Japanese originals, I had a pile of messages screaming "fuck you
fuck you" in my mailbox from De-Jap....no way I'm ever translating for them!
: My secondary gripe with the various one-liners in FF4e is that they are
: extremely forced: The Shatner line, in particular, seems to be trolling
: for a laugh and almost reduces the entire scene to pantomime. At least
: Working Designs manages to integrate their various one-liners into the
: game, whilst in J2e's case, they seem grafted on (probably because they
: were <g>).
They were. ;) What is this infamous Shatner line? Where did it come into
the game? I've only played the first couple of minutes so I don't know...
--
Ian Kelley "Try not to become a man of success but
ike...@mail.sas.upenn.edu rather to become a man of value."
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ikelley/ --Albert Einstein
Astos
(Ian A Kelley) wrote:
> : They are. Square has the initial right to step in and say "translate
> : this," or, if they prefer "don't touch this." They don't have direct say
> : over the translation, and though I don't neccessarily like it, at least
> : it's something they are aware of and have the ability to consider up
> : front.
>
> Come on now. Are they REALLY going to go in and say "don't touch this?"
> They're out to make money. A translated game is going to be better than
> none at all. The only reason Square would tell a US branch not to release
> a game would be because they wouldn't sell, not because of translations.
When Capcom came to Squaresoft to translate Breath of Fire, they told Ted
Woolsey that "he can do what he wants with the names, but Nina stays as
Nina", amongst other things. So, it really is up to the company. Which
makes sense. They're paying for the translation, after all.
Dan.
--
Dan Posluns - dpos...@total.net, formerly ke...@astral.magic.ca
Defender of FF6 (FF3), SaGa 2 (FFL2), and Seiken Denetsu 2 (SoM)
Distributor of Astos Points
Awarded:
- 9 Chaos Points
- 7 Import Points due to a very generous grading curve!
- 1 Smart Point
Quotes:
"Doesn't that just beat all..." - Rei, BoF3
"The power of the Brood is something to be respected and feared, but it
isn't enough to save or destroy the world..." - Peco, BoF3
"So, Lonestar, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is
dumb." - Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
"Armor won't help the heart stay sharp... Shellbust Stab!" - FFT
"What are you going to do with just a knife and a MAGI?" - Venus, FFL2
"I don't believe there are any bad people in this world. Just bad hearts
and weak people. It's difficult for weak people to become strong. That's
why we have to get rid of the bad hearts. Please understand." - Jean, BoF2
"The train we on don't make no stops!" - Barrett
Some quotes from AGFF:
>Anyone know how long Breath of Fire III is?
11.8 cm. - Seb, 5/24/98
>HIS MUSIC IS LIKE SOMETHING YOU HEAR IN AN ELEVATOR
I thought I heard "The Nut Cracker" being played in the elevator in one
hotel in NYC... - Tomo in reference to Nobuo Uematsu, 6/27/98
For the last time, you can't revive the orbs, everyone knows that.
The orbs are *dead*. Deal with it. All these revival stories about the
orbs are annoying the hell out of everybody, so shut up. ;) - SailrMagus
re: FF1, 8/2/98
Ismail 'Slipgate' Saeed
>
> I was ENRAGED at Square for leaving Nintendo, slamming FF7 before its
> release, the works, but I too came to realize WHY they did it. I
> would still like to see FF1-3 remade for the N64, due to the N64's
> flexibility and potential, but for 4-7, PSX would be more optimum.
Square slammed their own game? How and why?
Slipgate
Ismail 'Slipgate' Saeed
>
> On or about 9 Aug 1998 01:20:16 GMT, the accused, frio...@aol.com
> (Frioniel), was heard saying:
>
> > >expanding the cartridge size, but Nintendo didn't like the idea... hm....
> >
>
> Actually, this wouldn't have been so bad had Nintendo not been
> mind-bogglingly late: There was far too much dead time between the fall
> of the SNES and the release of the N64. That, far more than sticking
> with cartridges, or limiting cartridge size, or anything else, really,
> was what put Nintendo into its present predicament.
>
> Not that I'm particularly fond of Nintendo, in any case. They've been
> historically awful to their third party developers, and at times I
> seriously question their business practices. Say what you will about
> Sony, but at least they have the common sense to realize that their
> third party developers are the lifeblood of any system, something
> Nintendo has seemingly forgot.
>
> > Not the kind of RPG's that Square is releasing lately. However, the
> > possibilities for a remake of the first three...are...*endless*!
>
> I'll go as far to say I've enjoyed Square's non-Final Fantasy output
> more than their Final Fantasy games (save Tactics): SaGa Frontier had
> the gameplay I felt was lacking from FF7, from what I've seen of
> Xenogears, it's tackling the sort of story I'd love to see more of, etc.
>
> > is a BIT excessive, no?
>
> liked much of Rare's output at all, which seems to be the ultimate
> instance of style over substance.
Donkey Kong Country was graphically interesting but far too easy. The
only difficult stage in that game was Snow Barrel Blast, and beating
that stage was so luck related it was almost pointless to sit down and
try unless you are willing to pull out your hair and make 50 attempts.
The rest of the game, both before and after, was cringingly simple.
Last boss? The exact same strategy as the first freaking boss.
I haven't played a lot of "Rare" ware. However, I loved RC Pro Am, and
that will always be a classic to me, just like Rad Racer or the early
Super Mario Brothers games (yes, I know that the SMB's and Rad Racer
AREN'T Rare ware, but Pro Am was).
Slipgate
Frioniel
>How is that? What more legitimacy is there to a mangled translation if
>it's being produced officially than if it's a fan translation? Because
>the people who made it commercially got paid for it? Because the company
>name is on it? If anything, I think they should be reprimanded MORE for
>mangling the script; if they are getting paid for what they are doing and
>slapping the company name of their translations, they had better damn
>well be faithful to the original script. Whereas fan translation groups
>put all the work into the game that the US companies do during
>translations, but get nothing out of it at all.
>
>You're gonna need to know a lot more than just the Katakana to get
>through FF4. ;) And I guarantee you that any mishandled text would be
>around the one-liners, because there are no accuracy screwups; the text
>of the game is too straightforward. It only took me 6 hours to finish
>translating it, and that counts typing time of the English text. There
>was nothing in there I even had to think twice about.
>
>Come on now. Are they REALLY going to go in and say "don't touch this?"
>They're out to make money. A translated game is going to be better than
>none at all. The only reason Square would tell a US branch not to release
>a game would be because they wouldn't sell, not because of translations.
>So a *pretense* is enough to give commercial translators an edge? An
>"implied" sanctioning that doesn't even exist? The Square of Japan guys
>are *furious* over the translations that FF6, SD2, and CT got out. I have
>a hard time imagining that they're "sanctioning" them.
>
>The bane of all translation purists! How ironic that I know more than 3
>times as many Kanji as Victor Ireland, yet game companies blow me off
>without so much as seeing a translation sample 'cause I'm not a native
>speaker...*grumble*
>
>Hey, don't hold it against me, I didn't throw in a single joke. ;)
>Well, they do now, which is why they closed Square US. Our resident head
>honcho of Square USA thought he could do all the translation
>
>Despite their throwing in of the one-liners, I really think that J2E is
>probably the best fan translating group out there. I was really psyched
>when they respected my request to keep the original spell and character
>names intact despite the large amount of protests of people who wanted to
>see Fire 1, 2, and 3, etc. (I still have to fight off the flames from that
>one) Whereas when I tried to help De-jap on the spell names and suggested
>to use the Japanese originals, I had a pile of messages screaming "fuck you
>fuck you" in my mailbox from De-Jap....no way I'm ever translating for them!
>
>
*blinks*
You're my new best friend...
Frioniel
>Square slammed their own game? How and why?
>
>Slipgate
No, no...I meant *I* slammed the game before it's release. Sort of like many
are doing with FF8...
"It's just going to be FMV"
"It's gonna suck!" (yes, I used that lame one)
"It'd be better on N64" (Offering no explaination, why...)
Thought I'd clear that up...
JoHn D
>
> >
> >How is that? What more legitimacy is there to a mangled translation if
> >it's being produced officially than if it's a fan translation? Because
> >the people who made it commercially got paid for it? Because the company
> >name is on it? If anything, I think they should be reprimanded MORE for
> >mangling the script; if they are getting paid for what they are doing and
> >slapping the company name of their translations, they had better damn
> >well be faithful to the original script. Whereas fan translation groups
> >put all the work into the game that the US companies do during
> >translations, but get nothing out of it at all.
> >
> >probably the best fan translating group out there. I was really psyched
> >when they respected my request to keep the original spell and character
> >names intact despite the large amount of protests of people who wanted to
> >see Fire 1, 2, and 3, etc. (I still have to fight off the flames from that
> >one) Whereas when I tried to help De-jap on the spell names and suggested
> >to use the Japanese originals, I had a pile of messages screaming "fuck you
> >fuck you" in my mailbox from De-Jap....no way I'm ever translating for them!
> >
> >
>
>
> You're my new best friend...
I wanna be his best friend too!!! *shoves Fri out of the way*
Frioniel
>I wanna be his best friend too!!! *shoves Fri out of the way*
>
>
Silly boy! You go squish now! ::Uses Ultima16 on JoHn D:: Ha! That's
possible in MY game. You can only use Ultima oooonnnneee! HEE HEE HEE!
garf...@geocities.com
>
> Silly boy! You go squish now! ::Uses Ultima16 on JoHn D:: Ha! That's
> possible in MY game. You can only use Ultima oooonnnneee! HEE HEE HEE!
>
Oh yeah? *Uses Ultima Online on Frioniel, then W-Summons Ultima 8:
Pagan* There you go, now I've sent dozens of player killers and
lagmites to your internet connection, and then totally ruined your
interest for Ultima magics and games!!! Hahaha. Beat that. =)
Frioniel
>Pagan* There you go, now I've sent dozens of player killers and
>lagmites to your internet connection, and then totally ruined your
>interest for Ultima magics and games!!! Hahaha. Beat that. =)
>
Shuts off my computer...HA!