My Thoughts on Technology Vs. "Fantasy"
Ash666
On 21 May 1998 02:07:05 GMT, tomo...@aol.com (Tomo1657) wrote in
blood on the sidewalk with a broken, yet suprisingly sharp crayon that
goes back years in history:
>>OK, I've been thinking over Square's recent announcement that FF8 will
>>continue the "futuristic" feel of FF7, and I've noticed, as I did before the
>>release of FF7, the complaints about "ignoring the series' roots," and
>>forgoing "fantasy" for "technology."
>>
>>I honestly can say I can't understand any of it. If anything, I'd say FF7 was
>>by far more deeply rooted in the fantasy tradition than any of its
>>predeccessors. It weaved a complex, almost mythological history in the form
>>of
>>Cetra, and employed a great deal of concepts quite familiar to the fantasy
>>genre: the idea of the Promised Land, summoning Meteor and Holy, the
>>Lifestream, etc. Compare this to any games previously in the series: They've
>>certainly courted the genre, and haven't ignored it, but I've found such a
>>mood to be far more prevalent in FF7 than any other.
>>
>>The only thing I can think of explaining this is the idea that people somehow
>>think more "modern" settings negate any fantasy element. This is not only
>>wrong, but ridiculous. The "medeval fantasy" genre has been popular, but it
>>is
>>by no means the only form of fantasy.
>>
>>Frankly, while I understand the importance of "fantasy" in the series, I
>>don't
>>see why the games need be rooted in a medeval-style society. In fact, they
>>never really have been. None of the games, save for a few brief moments of
>>FF4, have the games ever really projected an overly medeval atmosphere. The
>>presence of airships negate that, as does the presence of the crystal
>>amplifiers in FF5, the tanks in FF4, and MagiTek armor in FF6. The medeval
>>style has always been far more obvious within, say, the Dragon Quest series.
>Yes. "Fantasy" means a lot different in Japnaese. It means "fantastic" with
>romance, adventure, and action. In America, "Fantasy" seems to indicate only
>dragons, magicians, kings, etc..
Well, I guess Tomo's said part of your answer. In the "American" sense
which Tomo has so lovingly defined for us, I don't see how you can
think it's not moving away from the fantasy genre. The modern settings
do hurt the fantasy part, as far as Tomo's definition is concerned.
And I do think most people concerned are using that definition and not
yours.
The elements you mentioned which define it as fantasy to you, are all
presented in a very scientific matter. You learn about the Cetra, not
as lore told to you by some villiage elder, but from scientific
studies combined with the last two living remnants of the species, all
put in a nice documentary-like manner. The Promised Land is both
learned of in the same clinical manner, and more of a religious
philisophical conept than anything else. I agree with you about
Meteor, Holy and the Lifestream though.
Now, go to five of your local video stores. Some are different, that's
why I suggest going to five. Now, find the section marked,
"SCI-FI/FANTASY". You will find titles such as:
2001
Bladerunner
Conan the Destroyer
Willow
etc.
See the big contrast here? The first two, are obviously sci-fi. The
last two were Fantasy. Final Fantasy, up until 6, was somwhere
inbetween the two, but leaning towards fantasy. 6 brought it somewhere
around the middle. Seven is the inverse of the first five. FFVII's
world wasn't a fantasy world. It was a near-future (Sci-fi) version of
our world, with some fantasy elements disguised as nature thrown in to
collide with it and create chaos. But at the core, it's a sci-fi
world, and not fantasy.
And to have my say on the matter, I prefer 7's sci-fi with a side of
fantasy tone/feel to all the other FFs.
>>Sean Christian Daugherty
^^^^^^^^^
Predetermined, eh? :)
Ash666 - "Tomorrow is another day. Damn."
Ash
On Thu, 21 May 1998 02:01:00 GMT, whilst Geri was out,
sean...@erols.com (Sean Daugherty) screamed from the rooftops:
>OK, I've been thinking over Square's recent announcement that FF8 will
>continue the "futuristic" feel of FF7, and I've noticed, as I did before the
>release of FF7, the complaints about "ignoring the series' roots," and
>forgoing "fantasy" for "technology."
>
>I honestly can say I can't understand any of it. If anything, I'd say FF7 was
>by far more deeply rooted in the fantasy tradition than any of its
>predeccessors. It weaved a complex, almost mythological history in the form of
>Cetra, and employed a great deal of concepts quite familiar to the fantasy
>genre: the idea of the Promised Land, summoning Meteor and Holy, the
>Lifestream, etc. Compare this to any games previously in the series: They've
>certainly courted the genre, and haven't ignored it, but I've found such a
>mood to be far more prevalent in FF7 than any other.
It was the whole combination of mythology/technology that attracted me
in the first place. Games that are set in some fantasy past aren't as
interesting. They're good, but rarely as thought provoking. FF7 had
modern vehicles, science, and buildings, but the world was steeped in
years of tradition and legend.
>The only thing I can think of explaining this is the idea that people somehow
>think more "modern" settings negate any fantasy element. This is not only
>wrong, but ridiculous. The "medeval fantasy" genre has been popular, but it is
>by no means the only form of fantasy.
True - fantasy isn't exclusive to medieval society. That's just the
D&D perspective. FF7 combined the best of both worlds. Technology
without history is cold and meaningless, and history without
technology is restrictive. Can you imagine FF7 without the
technological creatures, machines, and vehicles? And the mythology
provided a sense of realism (strange as that may sound!) - the world
would have seemes shallow without the Cetra legends and other fantasy
elements.
>Frankly, while I understand the importance of "fantasy" in the series, I don't
>see why the games need be rooted in a medeval-style society. In fact, they
>never really have been. None of the games, save for a few brief moments of
>FF4, have the games ever really projected an overly medeval atmosphere. The
>presence of airships negate that, as does the presence of the crystal
>amplifiers in FF5, the tanks in FF4, and MagiTek armor in FF6. The medeval
>style has always been far more obvious within, say, the Dragon Quest series.
Perhaps some people fear the future and technology.....or believe that
FF will lose some of it's magic if it takes place in a present day
setting. FF has never had huge polluting cities before - in
retrospect, I consider that to be a brave step by Square. And Shinra
was a wonderful idea for the series - evil that comes not from demons,
but from business and greed...
Ash
Sean Daugherty
On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 15:22:26 GMT, the accused,
fl...@vossnet.Gerispamblock.co.uk (Ash), was heard saying:
> True - fantasy isn't exclusive to medieval society. That's just the
> D&D perspective. FF7 combined the best of both worlds. Technology
> without history is cold and meaningless, and history without
> technology is restrictive. Can you imagine FF7 without the
> technological creatures, machines, and vehicles? And the mythology
> provided a sense of realism (strange as that may sound!) - the world
> would have seemes shallow without the Cetra legends and other fantasy
> elements.
Exactly! That's what I've been saying all along! Part of what made FF7 (and FF
Tactics, for that matter) great, story-wise, is the emphasis on creating a
realistic tapestry of myth and history. The idea that you are entering a world
that hasn't been created on the fly just for you to beat the crap out of some
power-mad megalomaniac.
--
Sean Christian Daugherty (sean...@erols.com) ~ (AIM Name: HeiwaIkari)
Come visit the AGFF website: http://www.netins.net/showcase/gog
3500 posts and one Post of Reason to alt.games.final-fantasy!
AGFF's own loud mouthed, neo-socialistic flaming liberal!
Sean Daugherty
On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 08:36:58 GMT, the accused,
Ash666alli...@nojunocomdot.comdotcom.com (Ash666), was heard saying:
> And I do think most people concerned are using that definition and not
> yours.
And it is a fallacious one. The fantasy genre is not defined by medeval
settings: It's a cliche that has become commonly accepted, but it is by now
means the definition of the genre.
> The elements you mentioned which define it as fantasy to you, are all
> presented in a very scientific matter. You learn about the Cetra, not
> as lore told to you by some villiage elder, but from scientific
> studies combined with the last two living remnants of the species, all
> put in a nice documentary-like manner. The Promised Land is both
> learned of in the same clinical manner, and more of a religious
> philisophical conept than anything else. I agree with you about
> Meteor, Holy and the Lifestream though.
In addition to Meteor, Holy, and the Lifestream, there's the emphasis of the
planet as a sentient entity, Bugenhagen's ramblings, the mystery of the
Weapons, who despite a very tech-y appearance, have origins deeply rooted in
the fantastic, and so forth. The inclusion of a quasi-scientific basis behind
it all gives it a air of realism, but doesn't preclude the fact that it is
still mostly fantasy-based.
> 2001
> Bladerunner
> Conan the Destroyer
> Willow
> etc.
Lousy choices. Both 2001 and Blade Runner are deeply rooted science fiction
movies. 2001 touches upon some fantasy-elements, but in a very scientific
sense. And on the opposite spectrum, there's Conan and Willow, which are very
much deeply rooted medeval fantasy. FF7, and, indeed, the entire FF series,
doesn't fit into either category. A closer corelation, as much as I hate to
draw it, would be the Star Wars movies: They were, indeed, almost entirely
fantasy-based, with sci-fi elements included to give it an air of futuristic
versimilitude.
> See the big contrast here? The first two, are obviously sci-fi. The
> last two were Fantasy.
No, the last two were medeval fantasy. Medeval fantasy is not the only fantasy
genre, which is what I've been trying to say.
> Final Fantasy, up until 6, was somwhere
> inbetween the two, but leaning towards fantasy. 6 brought it somewhere
> around the middle. Seven is the inverse of the first five. FFVII's
> world wasn't a fantasy world. It was a near-future (Sci-fi) version of
> our world, with some fantasy elements disguised as nature thrown in to
> collide with it and create chaos. But at the core, it's a sci-fi
> world, and not fantasy.
Quite the opposite actually. The basis of science fiction is that is an
extrapolation, to whatever extent, of modern technology. This is at the core
of almost all "real" science fiction: 2001 was based upon modern (in it's day)
advances in space exploration, as was, say, Star Trek. Fantasy is under no
such restraint: It cannot pass the boundries of suspension of disbelief, but
it isn't as intrinsicly tied to "real life" as sci-fi is.
And what defines FF7 is what is at the core of the game: The Cetra may be an
alien species, but their quest, and their eventual goal, is deeply rooted in
fantasy. Shinra may be a spoof of real life business, but its actual business,
magic extraction, is anything but. There's no explanation, nor need there be
one, of the Planet's implied self-awareness, the origins of Meteor and Holy,
or the true nature of the Lifestream. That's what defines FF7 as fantasy and
not sci-fi, not, as many modern reviewers of both the science fiction and
fantasy genres have implied, how many big ass robots you can throw in <G>
> >>Sean Christian Daugherty
> ^^^^^^^^^
> Predetermined, eh? :)
Actually, I'm an atheist. Can't help it if I have a weird middle name. <G>
Ash666
On Thu, 21 May 1998 16:29:31 GMT, sean...@erols.com (Sean Daugherty)
wrote in blood on the sidewalk with a broken, yet suprisingly sharp
crayon that goes back years in history:
>On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 08:36:58 GMT, the accused,
>Ash666alli...@nojunocomdot.comdotcom.com (Ash666), was heard saying:
>
>> And I do think most people concerned are using that definition and not
>> yours.
>
>And it is a fallacious one. The fantasy genre is not defined by medeval
>settings: It's a cliche that has become commonly accepted, but it is by now
>means the definition of the genre.
Okay, instead of doing this my way (conform to the popular term), I'll
do it your way. Final Fantasy is loosing it's Mideval Fantasy (D&D
might be a better term, since it's shorter :) element, and that is
what people are mad/sad/disappointed about (and I'm happy about :).
>> The elements you mentioned which define it as fantasy to you, are all
>> presented in a very scientific matter. You learn about the Cetra, not
>> as lore told to you by some villiage elder, but from scientific
>> studies combined with the last two living remnants of the species, all
>> put in a nice documentary-like manner. The Promised Land is both
>> learned of in the same clinical manner, and more of a religious
>> philisophical conept than anything else. I agree with you about
>> Meteor, Holy and the Lifestream though.
>
>In addition to Meteor, Holy, and the Lifestream, there's the emphasis of the
>planet as a sentient entity, Bugenhagen's ramblings, the mystery of the
>Weapons, who despite a very tech-y appearance, have origins deeply rooted in
>the fantastic, and so forth. The inclusion of a quasi-scientific basis behind
>it all gives it a air of realism, but doesn't preclude the fact that it is
>still mostly fantasy-based.
The inclusion of the quasi-scientific basis kills the D&D theme, and
brings it into a standard of reality that we use today, becoming a
modern fantasy story. Or going to the simplified and accepted cliche,
it's loosing it's fantasy (aka D&D, aka Mideval) basis, hence the
complaining.
>> 2001
>> Bladerunner
>> Conan the Destroyer
>> Willow
>> etc.
>
>Lousy choices. Both 2001 and Blade Runner are deeply rooted science fiction
>movies. 2001 touches upon some fantasy-elements, but in a very scientific
>sense. And on the opposite spectrum, there's Conan and Willow, which are very
>much deeply rooted medeval fantasy. FF7, and, indeed, the entire FF series,
>doesn't fit into either category. A closer corelation, as much as I hate to
>draw it, would be the Star Wars movies: They were, indeed, almost entirely
>fantasy-based, with sci-fi elements included to give it an air of futuristic
>versimilitude.
Good choices, as far as I'm concerned. I was trying to show the
opposite ends of the spectrum, so we could show which side of the
"Mean" of "D&D-NESS", if you will :), the games are on. Besides, I was
going alphabetical, and couldn't think of anything for D. <G> Assuming
a normal distribution, what is the standard deviation using 50 samples
and the central limit theo--ouch!
>> See the big contrast here? The first two, are obviously sci-fi. The
>> last two were Fantasy.
>
>No, the last two were medeval fantasy. Medeval fantasy is not the only fantasy
>genre, which is what I've been trying to say.
And what I was trying to say, is that most of the people in question
don't see it that way. Which is why I chose the video store analogy.
They tend to catagorize using the "popular cliche" definitions.
>> Final Fantasy, up until 6, was somwhere
>> inbetween the two, but leaning towards fantasy. 6 brought it somewhere
>> around the middle. Seven is the inverse of the first five. FFVII's
>> world wasn't a fantasy world. It was a near-future (Sci-fi) version of
>> our world, with some fantasy elements disguised as nature thrown in to
>> collide with it and create chaos. But at the core, it's a sci-fi
>> world, and not fantasy.
>
>Quite the opposite actually. The basis of science fiction is that is an
>extrapolation, to whatever extent, of modern technology. This is at the core
>of almost all "real" science fiction: 2001 was based upon modern (in it's day)
>advances in space exploration, as was, say, Star Trek. Fantasy is under no
>such restraint: It cannot pass the boundries of suspension of disbelief, but
>it isn't as intrinsicly tied to "real life" as sci-fi is.
Sci-fi isn't necessarily tied to "real life" boundaries, either. It is
fiction, and it may have to be a little more creative to get away with
it successfully, but it really doesn't have any limits. Anyway,
replacing what I said about fantasy with D&D, and Sci-fi as
futuristic, you see what I'm saying? 6 started leaving the D&D aspect
somewhat, and 7 stomped on it a bit. 8 is probably going to follow in
that respect. Personally, I see it as a good thing. I've noticed that
I like the futuristic ones more than the D&D ones. I dislike 1, think
4 is only decent, think 6 is pretty good (sans the WoR), and love 7.
>And what defines FF7 is what is at the core of the game: The Cetra may be an
>alien species, but their quest, and their eventual goal, is deeply rooted in
>fantasy. Shinra may be a spoof of real life business, but its actual business,
>magic extraction, is anything but. There's no explanation, nor need there be
>one, of the Planet's implied self-awareness, the origins of Meteor and Holy,
>or the true nature of the Lifestream. That's what defines FF7 as fantasy and
>not sci-fi, not, as many modern reviewers of both the science fiction and
>fantasy genres have implied, how many big ass robots you can throw in <G>
Let me repeat a little that you just said. Shinra's business was
extracting energy from a natural resource. The Cetra could be an alien
species. Jenova WAS an alien species. One of the main goals was to
stop a meteor from hitting the planet.
That is also what defines FF7 as NON-FANTASY (real term: non-mideval
fantasy) with FANTASY ELEMENTS (real term: magic) to 70% of the
registered voters of the State of Washington. It doesn't matter if
their definitions are wrong, as long as you know what they are trying
to say, right?
>> >>Sean Christian Daugherty
>> ^^^^^^^^^
>> Predetermined, eh? :)
>
>Actually, I'm an atheist. Can't help it if I have a weird middle name. <G>
Heh, go figure. Ever heard of the Athiest code? I found this on my
hard drive yesterday, don't remember getting it, not sure what it
means, too lazy to find out :)
(from ATHIEST.TXT)
My Athiest Code:
ACv1.0 DUR5 STR4 BIT2 ACT1 DEF1 DEB2 CON0 SLM2 XTN3 PUB2
Ralph 6226
Ash666 wrote:
I think we (consumers of Western Culture, including New Zealand) are too caught
up in the pop-concept of 'Fantasy'. We've been heavily influenced by the
Tolkein/Conan vision of 'Fantasy', which is based on a combination of
pre-technological society (Medieval?) and working magic. D&D reinforced the
influence, as do the thousands of Tokein/Conan Clone books on the shelves of
any bookstore.
A broader definition of 'Fantasy' would include any invented universe that
includes things that really don't exist in our known universe, and are not
projections of current science or technology. (Magic) (Well, maybe the
Department of Defense is working on an 'Ultima' spell, but I haven't heard
about it)
To me, one of the things that is appealing about the 'created universes' of the
FF games is that they are NOT limited to the formulas and cliches of
D&D/Tolkein/Conan. The writers seem to feel free to throw darn near anything
into the plot, as long as it makes the story interesting and exciting.
Generally, they have succeeded.
Science Fiction (a branch of 'Speculative Fiction') has strict rules. The
technology must be feasible, and anachronisms are not allowed, unless they are
explainable in the plot. Anything that breaks those rules is 'dismissed' as
'just fantasy'. Yeah, Star Wars was Fantasy! So is Final Fantasy.
(and yeah, there are some lapses in logic- Why ride Chocbos when you have
trucks and airships? Why use swords and armor when you have machine guns? I
see it as 'poetic license', used to make the stories and the games more
exciting. That is OK with me!)
Good Ol' Ralph
"Chocobos R Us"
Bahamut 69
absolutely right, Final Fantasy has always been about blending both fantasy and
science fiction, going back even further, FF1 had the airship, the sky palace,
the warmech... futuristic technology is nothing new to the FF world.
MistaKefka
>OK, I've been thinking over Square's recent announcement that FF8 will<BR>
>continue the "futuristic" feel of FF7, and I've noticed, as I did before
>release of FF7, the complaints about "ignoring the series' roots," and<BR>
>forgoing "fantasy" for "technology."<BR>
><BR>
>I honestly can say I can't understand any of it. If anything, I'd say FF7
>by far more deeply rooted in the fantasy tradition than any of its<BR>
>predeccessors. It weaved a complex, almost mythological history in the form
>Cetra, and employed a great deal of concepts quite familiar to the
>genre: the idea of the Promised Land, summoning Meteor and Holy, the<BR>
>Lifestream, etc. Compare this to any games previously in the series:
>certainly courted the genre, and haven't ignored it, but I've found such
>mood to be far more prevalent in FF7 than any other.<BR>
><BR>
>The only thing I can think of explaining this is the idea that people
>think more "modern" settings negate any fantasy element. This is not only<BR>
>wrong, but ridiculous. The "medeval fantasy" genre has been popular, but it
>by no means the only form of fantasy. <BR>
><BR>
>Frankly, while I understand the importance of "fantasy" in the series, I
>see why the games need be rooted in a medeval-style society. In fact,
>never really have been. None of the games, save for a few brief moments
>FF4, have the games ever really projected an overly medeval atmosphere.
>presence of airships negate that, as does the presence of the crystal<BR>
>amplifiers in FF5, the tanks in FF4, and MagiTek armor in FF6. The
>style has always been far more obvious within, say, the Dragon Quest
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Sean Christian Daugherty
The the HELL can you say that with a strait face???????? FF7 took the EXACT
same (with about 5 changes) story of FF6, and reworked it into a futuristic
setting. Everything from the Cetra to Sephiroth summoning meteor, to landing on
the last bosses tower/cave was a ripoff of FF6!!!! In FF6, Cetra=Espers,
Meteor=Light of Judgment, Land of Tower=Land on Cave, etc. etc. Also, you cant
forget the battle arena=coloseum thing. I could go on forever.
********************************
Welcome to my barbecue!!!!!
********************************
MistaKefka
AIM: MistaKefka
http://lunarnet.simplenet.com/rpgocean
About 300 Posts to AGFF
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Holder of 1 Kefka Point!
Holder of 6 Snoopy Points!
Defender of:
XENOGEARS!!!! FF6, Star Ocean, FF4, FF7,
FF5, anyone that thinks FF6 is
the best game ever!
Basher of:
Any game said to be better than Xenogears!!!! FF6 is a close second...
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Favorite games:
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3. Tie - FF4 and Star Ocean
A few other favorites...
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I HATE machines!
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He owes allegience to no one... will do anything
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Son of a submariner!
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Scroll
cause the OSV says Cefca!
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RPG Reviews:
Key:
Name - Rating out of 10
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FF4 - 10
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FF7 - 9
Chrono Trigger - 9
Seiken Densetsu 2 - 9
Seiken Densetsu 3 - 9.5
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Now THAT'S a SUNBURN!!!
Peanuts Quiz!!! Earn Snoopy Points!!!!!
1. Where does Spike the Beagle live?
SCROLL
Needles California
2. What biome is it?
desert
3. What is Linus' last name?
Van Pelt
4. What is Lucy's last name?
Van Pelt! it is a trick question. they are bro/sis
5. What does Snoopy become when he puts on his sunglasses?
Joe Cool!
6. What does Snoopy become when he puts on his flying helmet?
The Red Baron! WW2 Flying Ace!!!!
Award yourself 1 Snoopy Point for each correct answer!
You are now exiting... MY BARBECUE!!!!
HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
Emill Szynsky
>On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 15:22:26 GMT, the accused,
>fl...@vossnet.Gerispamblock.co.uk (Ash), was heard saying:
>
>> True - fantasy isn't exclusive to medieval society. That's just the
>> D&D perspective. FF7 combined the best of both worlds. Technology
>> without history is cold and meaningless, and history without
>> technology is restrictive. Can you imagine FF7 without the
>> technological creatures, machines, and vehicles? And the mythology
>> provided a sense of realism (strange as that may sound!) - the world
>> would have seemes shallow without the Cetra legends and other fantasy
>> elements.
>
>Exactly! That's what I've been saying all along! Part of what made FF7 (and FF
>Tactics, for that matter) great, story-wise, is the emphasis on creating a
>realistic tapestry of myth and history. The idea that you are entering a world
>that hasn't been created on the fly just for you to beat the crap out of some
>power-mad megalomaniac.
Ultimately the question is not whether "fantasy" or "sci-fi" elements
are used, but how well they are integrated into the game...
Emill
/***\ /***\
(******v******) Fire Emblem Final Fantasy
\***EMILL***/
\*SZYNSKY*/ <R-chan's_co...@metrassoc.demon.co.uk>
\*******/
\***/ Hanjuku Hero's first achievement?!... Wetting the bed...
V
Bahamut 69
There were more signigicant differences in FFVII than there were signifigant
similarities. You're exaggerating.
Siegfried
Sean Daugherty wrote:
>
> OK, I've been thinking over Square's recent announcement that FF8 will
>
> I honestly can say I can't understand any of it. If anything, I'd say FF7 was
>
>
I agree completely. Many people seem to mistakenly think that it's the "medieval"
atmosphere that they like, when really it's just the fantasy (although some people
really do like medieval stuff in particular). Science fiction is also fantasy, in
a way. I never really saw a great difference in concept or feel between fantasy
and sci-fi, even if there is usually a difference in setting. Both are about what
might be possible in the universe or in some other...
-Siegfried
Terpfen007
Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning, pal? How can you compare
the Cetra to Espers? Aerith did NOT have any special ability except
for the ability to converse with the planet, and she was a Cetra.
"Meteor=Light of Judgement?" Uhhh.... sure.... the Light of Judgement
didn't hang over your head all day, every day, for almost a month(I'm
assuming that everything that takes place after you get the Highwind
took place in one month), scaring the crap out of you. Hell, Meteor
didn't even destroy anything, besides Midgar. Now, what's that Land of
Tower=Land on Cave thing you're talking about?
Terpfen007
-------
The slayer of Algus and Cloud
The defender of Final Fantasy Tactics' music
Distributer of Coolness points
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ICQ: 2505976
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Nejimakidori
In article <35695359...@news.erols.com>,
sean...@erols.com (Sean Daugherty) wrote:
>
> On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 08:36:58 GMT, the accused,
> Ash666alli...@nojunocomdot.comdotcom.com (Ash666), was heard saying:
>
> > And I do think most people concerned are using that definition and not
> > yours.
>
> And it is a fallacious one.
"And it's WRONG!"
> The fantasy genre is not defined by medeval
> settings>>>>>>>:<<<<<<< It's a cliche that has become commonly accepted, > but it is by now
> means the definition of the genre.
Stop abusing those damn colons.
And I already had this argument on rec.games.video.* long ago, before you
were even born.
marketing
grumble, grumble...
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Nejimakidori
In article <3564B364...@proaxis.com>,
csa...@proaxis.com wrote:
> I agree completely. Many people seem to mistakenly think that it's the > > "medieval" atmosphere that they like, when really it's just the fantasy
Can it be true? Did someone on this newsgroup, in fact, manage to spell
"medieval" correctly? Aggh, someone stop this before it goes too far...
marketing
next thing you know, someone might figure out how to spell "emperor"...
The Notorious B.O.B.
On 21 May 1998 20:31:31 GMT, secret agent Bob spotted mista...@aol.com
(MistaKefka) delivering the secret message
<199805212031...@ladder03.news.aol.com> to AOL
http://www.aol.com, a secret organization bent on conquering
alt.games.final-fantasy:
»>OK, I've been thinking over Square's recent announcement that FF8 will<BR>
<sarcasm>Yeah! And FF4 was a complete rip-off of FF1! Think about it.
They both have a last boss, they both let you buy weapons and armor,
they both make you move around with a controller, they both let you talk
to people in towns, etc. I don't even know why I keep buying these new
games, they're all EXACTLY THE SAME!</sarcasm> And BTW, take those HTML
tags out of your posts, they're annoying.
Bob
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Sean Daugherty
On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 17:14:46 GMT, the accused,
Ash666alli...@nojunocomdot.comdotcom.com (Ash666), was heard saying:
> Okay, instead of doing this my way (conform to the popular term), I'll
> do it your way. Final Fantasy is loosing it's Mideval Fantasy (D&D
> might be a better term, since it's shorter :) element, and that is
> what people are mad/sad/disappointed about (and I'm happy about :).
Oh, definately. I just got a little sick of people complaining about how Final
Fantasy was losing it's "fantasy" element when it's doing nothing of the sort.
It's losing it's "D&D," as you put it and moving towards a modern setting,
which too many people (wrongly) define as science fiction. FF7 was not science
fiction.
> The inclusion of the quasi-scientific basis kills the D&D theme, and
> brings it into a standard of reality that we use today, becoming a
> modern fantasy story. Or going to the simplified and accepted cliche,
> it's loosing it's fantasy (aka D&D, aka Mideval) basis, hence the
> complaining.
But even then, it doesn't. FF7 didn't even really have a quasi-scientific
basis. The Lifestream, Meteor, and Holy were all explained in an almost
religious manner. The only thing seperating FF7 from its predeccessors was
pure setting, and a more "modern" (it's no more modern in the real sense than
any of the prior games were truly "medeval") setting in no sense precludes any
sort of fantasy element.
> Good choices, as far as I'm concerned. I was trying to show the
> opposite ends of the spectrum, so we could show which side of the
> "Mean" of "D&D-NESS", if you will :), the games are on. Besides, I was
> going alphabetical, and couldn't think of anything for D. <G> Assuming
> a normal distribution, what is the standard deviation using 50 samples
> and the central limit theo--ouch!
But it doesn't help, because it only further applies the stereotype that I'm
trying to show as silly <G>. It's perfectly possible to have a futuristic
fantasy tale (as was FF7, or Star Wars), as, indeed, it's possible to have a
historical science fiction tale (Frankenstein, though not at its own time, is
indeed one now), "D&D-ness" be damned. I'm quite aware of that ridiculous
explanation, and it's what I've been trying to prove incorrect.
> And what I was trying to say, is that most of the people in question
> don't see it that way. Which is why I chose the video store analogy.
> They tend to catagorize using the "popular cliche" definitions.
I know that. That was the cliche I was attempting to confront.
> Sci-fi isn't necessarily tied to "real life" boundaries, either. It is
> fiction, and it may have to be a little more creative to get away with
> it successfully, but it really doesn't have any limits.
But it does, actually. What seperates science-fiction from fantasy is the
extrapolation of science. All science fiction is bound, sometimes indirectly,
by modern science, hence the name. It doesn't mean seriously weird things
can't happen, just that they are invariably derived from modern advancements
in science.
> Anyway, replacing what I said about fantasy with D&D, and Sci-fi as
> futuristic, you see what I'm saying? 6 started leaving the D&D aspect
> somewhat, and 7 stomped on it a bit. 8 is probably going to follow in
> that respect. Personally, I see it as a good thing. I've noticed that
> I like the futuristic ones more than the D&D ones. I dislike 1, think
> 4 is only decent, think 6 is pretty good (sans the WoR), and love 7.
But, again, the FF series never really did fit the D&D definition of fantasy,
either. People mistake the absence of skyscrapers or whatnot for a "medeval"
feel, but the series has never truly had that. FF4 had modern artillery. FF5
had some rather high tech power machinery and power machinery. My complaint
is, indeed, that people ridiculously assign definitions to the series that not
only don't exist, but are completely bonkers.
> Let me repeat a little that you just said. Shinra's business was
> extracting energy from a natural resource. The Cetra could be an alien
> species. Jenova WAS an alien species. One of the main goals was to
> stop a meteor from hitting the planet.
>
> That is also what defines FF7 as NON-FANTASY (real term: non-mideval
> fantasy) with FANTASY ELEMENTS (real term: magic) to 70% of the
> registered voters of the State of Washington. It doesn't matter if
> their definitions are wrong, as long as you know what they are trying
> to say, right?
But it does matter if they were wrong when it's that idea that I'm trying to
confront.
Sean Daugherty
On or about 21 May 1998 20:31:31 GMT, the accused, mista...@aol.com
(MistaKefka), was heard saying:
> The the HELL can you say that with a strait face???????? FF7 took the EXACT
> same (with about 5 changes) story of FF6, and reworked it into a futuristic
> setting.
It most certainly did not, any more than FF6 reworked the story from FF2j, or
even FF4.
> Eerything from the Cetra to Sephiroth summoning meteor, to landing on
> the last bosses tower/cave was a ripoff of FF6!!!! In FF6, Cetra=Espers,
How? If that's true, then Espers=Lunarians, which is silly, in any case. The
Cetra were not a presence in FF7: They were extinct. The only surviving Cetra
was Aerith, and she was a half-breed. The Espers were the driving influence
behind FF6's plot. The Cetra were essentially tangential to FF7's plot.
> Meteor=Light of Judgment,
Again, if we follow this, Light of Judgement=the Mu/Void, or even Golbez's
attacks on the land in FF4. Again, ridiculous, anyway. The Light of Judgement
was Kefka's tool, and the idea was obviously that once Kefka was downed, then
the Light would be no threat. This is almost entirely opposed to FF7, where,
once Sephiroth summons Meteor, Meteor becomes the primary threat. Sephiroth is
a secondary concern who happens to get in the way of dealing with Meteor.
> Land of Tower=Land on Cave, etc. etc. Also, you cant forget the battle
> arena=coloseum thing.
Which has absolutely nada to do with plot, and is hardly something that is
consigned to the Final Fantasy series, in any case, having shown up, in
different forms, in Wild Arms, SaGa Frontier, Breath of Fire III, and even, in
some degree, in FFT's side quests.
> I could go on forever.
Of course you could. But it would be silly, because you'd be grasping at
straws. I could easily "go on forever" about how FF6's story was a total
rip-off of FF2j's, FF4's, *AND* FF5's, but what would be the point? I'd be
correct, in a very nitpicky way, but it would hardly be relevant.
Sean Daugherty
On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 16:06:12 -0700, the accused, Siegfried
<csa...@proaxis.com>, was heard saying:
> I agree completely. Many people seem to mistakenly think that it's the "medieval"
> atmosphere that they like, when really it's just the fantasy (although some people
> really do like medieval stuff in particular). Science fiction is also fantasy, in
> a way. I never really saw a great difference in concept or feel between fantasy
> and sci-fi, even if there is usually a difference in setting. Both are about what
> might be possible in the universe or in some other...
Indeed, the seperation between science fiction and fantasy isn't well defined
(and is new within the past few decades, in any case). The primary difference
is the application of a serious rationale based in modern scientific
understanding in sci-fi. This makes sense, in a way, but the problem, of
course, is that it almost entirely fails to matter, because, by this
definition, any fantasy piece can be turned into sci-fi with the inclusion of
one sentence of "scientific" explanation. And it's a silly exercise indeed.
Ian -ZetaCron- Hollis
>and yeah, there are some lapses in logic- Why ride Chocbos when you have
>trucks and airships?
Because Trucks can't go over Mountains, and AirShips can't land in a Forest
filled Crator(sp?) in the North-East. ;-)
_____ __ /__ _____
Ian Hollis /--`--\ / \|/ \ /--`--\
Guardian of "The Flying\| Apple |/Tree"--\
yo...@iniaccess.net.au | |
ZetaCron on IRC \_____/ Guardian->ICQ: 7499315
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The *ORIGINAL*: <Rank> of "The Flying <Fruit> Tree"
:---------------------------------------------------------:
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Eldrick Tobin
When Ami Kintaro was having fun in shower on, Mon, 25 May 1998 12:45:52
GMT, & Eldrick was peeking thinking she didn't know damn well that he was
watching her, yo...@iniaccess.net.au (Ian -ZetaCron- Hollis), tapped
Eldrick on the shoulder, & said the following:
>>and yeah, there are some lapses in logic- Why ride Chocbos when you have
>>trucks and airships?
>
>Because Trucks can't go over Mountains, and AirShips can't land in a Forest
>filled Crator(sp?) in the North-East. ;-)
Or overheat requiring a new motor from Ford or whatnot... *cold and
callous* I mean if your bird dies... you can eat it... if your car
dies..........
also there is the replacing issue... Chocobo's run wild... you could
probably get a spare quickly... and they are fairly friendly -fft aside-
I don't see cars roaming free in heard or sitting on nests.....
Plus I'll bet a Chocobo is cheaper in the long run */cold and callous*
--
Eldrick Tobin (Jason F. Long to some)
Creator of Ami Kintaro the Fictional Hentai Anime Girl
Slayer of Algus and Dycedarg, Non-liker of Amano Yoshitaka
AGFF Official Horny Bastard
Member of the Coalition to Call it the Lifestream
Winner of:
The Official GFOX Most Amazing Rambling and Pointless Longwinded Post
of the MONTH
10 Otaku points.
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Eldrick Tobin
When Ami Kintaro was having fun in shower on, Mon, 25 May 1998 05:37:47
GMT, & Eldrick was peeking thinking she didn't know damn well that he was
shoulder, & said the following:
>On or about Thu, 21 May 1998 16:06:12 -0700, the accused, Siegfried
><csa...@proaxis.com>, was heard saying:
>
>> I agree completely. Many people seem to mistakenly think that it's the "medieval"
>> atmosphere that they like, when really it's just the fantasy (although some people
>> really do like medieval stuff in particular). Science fiction is also fantasy, in
>> a way. I never really saw a great difference in concept or feel between fantasy
>> and sci-fi, even if there is usually a difference in setting. Both are about what
>> might be possible in the universe or in some other...
>
>Indeed, the seperation between science fiction and fantasy isn't well defined
>(and is new within the past few decades, in any case). The primary difference
>is the application of a serious rationale based in modern scientific
>understanding in sci-fi. This makes sense, in a way, but the problem, of
>course, is that it almost entirely fails to matter, because, by this
>definition, any fantasy piece can be turned into sci-fi with the inclusion of
>one sentence of "scientific" explanation. And it's a silly exercise indeed.
So... if they fully explained magic, and chrysm in BoF3 -they already
explain Momo's Chrysm bazooka... or would that be better defined as a
pulsed particle beam? Whatever- to where a modern scientist could go "Well
by those definitions it is absolutely possible... hell we could do that if
the primary element they used were here." (Say some particle not present in
enough abundance on our world to do the things done in BoF3) that maybe
then it would be a bit more Sci Fi and a little less Medieval Fantasy?
On a side note I think it is funny as hell that Bof3 had a Techno age...
and screwed up and lost it ;)
Wonder if we will... *imagines some people who have looked at him like he
was Satan for wearing *gasp* a cape outside... wearing capes and bursts out
laughing* <Yes I know the cape is only ONE example>
Just some rambles...