Old Warrior AC Question
jaZZmanian Devil
make sure I've not:
1. Totally lost my mind
2. Never understood melee equipment and strats
or
3. Missed out on more recent changes in the game that changed things
massively
The scenario:
Person creates a new warrior twink and has some cash to blow on him.
(Not unlimited, but enough for fairly good gear.) This warrior is at
around level 24/25 and still no where near the AC soft cap. Person
decides to blow a good chunk of their cash getting a Fungi for the chest
slot. (AC 21, but has the 15 HP/tick regen.)
My understanding, since way back in the day, was that AC was God for
warriors. Damage mitigation is > All. Assuming you are spending most of
your time in groups with a healer available (which this twink in
question confirmed was the case) and not soloing, wouldn't a nice 50 AC
or more BP be a better investment for the BP slot than a fungi?
Personally, unless you are trying to solo primarly, and looking to
reduce downtime, I see the Fungi for a warrior being more of a novelty
item, or very specific situational tool. Much like a manastone for a
caster. (As I found out recently. They are not nearly all they are
cracked up to be anymore.)
I won't even go into the specific reasons I thought this, but would
rather leave it to you to confirm, deny, and/or back up as you see fit.
So, with the above conditions, what say you? Fungi or, for example,
Fierce Heraldic or something else akin to that?
--
"Would you care for a sammich?"
-Martin
> 15HPs per tick is a shitload of HPs in the high end game and shouldn't be
> over looked or under estimated (an extra 150 HPs added per minute).
Who in the "high end" still wears a fungi?
And PoP has made it useless as a "solo" melee tool..
-m
-Martin
news:930A6350Bnewsh...@66.150.105.46...
> vi...@atcheerful.dotcom (-Martin) wrote in alt.games.everquest in
> <s5dX9.1738$P54.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net> :
> of a, let's say a, 150hp item?
Im at over 1400ac, pretty much ever monk in my guild is, and nobody wears a
fungi.
Maybe we just all suck and don't understand our classes? And it is a
choice thing.. Id say 99% of us has a fungi in their inventory.. we just
don't wear it day-to-day
I personally never see anybody "high end" that wears a fungi... in my guild
or any other.
-m
jaZZmanian Devil
For those advocating a Fungi for warriors not at the AC soft cap, I
still want to hear it... at what point did AC stop being God for
warriors?
The only argument I've heard that even had the *sound* of being valid
(until you look at it too closely, that is) is the "15 HP/tick means
less healing per hour" argument. However, stop and think... once you're
into your thirties, you're going to be grouping with clerics that either
have the totally rediculous CHeal, or at least a pretty damned big one.
They are going to cast it *roughly* when you get down to a certain
amount of health left, depending on the heal being used and the DPS of
the mob you are tanking.
By the time you are even in your mid twenties, the mobs you are fighting
are dishing out a hell of a lot more damage than 15HP every six seconds.
WAY more. By the time you've stood toe to toe with the mob long enough
to take a significant amount of damage, let's say three or four ticks go
by. Even ignoring the damage mitigation issue (which you really can't)
then with your Fungi you have 45 or 60 more HP than a tank without one.
(out of what? Nearly 2K HP by that point?) The healers casts a heal at
whatever point. Almost always, particularly with CHeal, that heal is
going to be overkill. It's going to top you off or take you damned near
to it. The heal spell doesn't have some magic intelligence to stop and
say, "Whoa! Hold on! This ubah bastage has a fungi!! I better use a
little less mana and heal him for less HP or it would be a waste."
Nope. You get the same heal every which way.
Now, add into that the fact that the person with better damage
mitigation will have been taking less damage than the person with less
AC. Even the slight edge in hit points that our Fungi wearer enjoyed is
nibbled away by the fact that the Fungi Wearer is getting hit harder and
more often.
Nope... nope... I just don't see it.
Freeman
"jaZZmanian Devil" <js...@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3E2D4E0E...@stny.rr.com...
> This has raised it's head in another forum, and I want a sanity check to
> make sure I've not:
> 1. Totally lost my mind
> 2. Never understood melee equipment and strats
> or
> 3. Missed out on more recent changes in the game that changed things
> massively
>
> The scenario:
>
> Person creates a new warrior twink and has some cash to blow on him.
> (Not unlimited, but enough for fairly good gear.) This warrior is at
> around level 24/25 and still no where near the AC soft cap. Person
> decides to blow a good chunk of their cash getting a Fungi for the chest
> slot. (AC 21, but has the 15 HP/tick regen.)
>
> My understanding, since way back in the day, was that AC was God for
> warriors. Damage mitigation is > All. Assuming you are spending most of
> your time in groups with a healer available (which this twink in
> question confirmed was the case) and not soloing, wouldn't a nice 50 AC
> or more BP be a better investment for the BP slot than a fungi?
As usual, I would say, your understanding is spot on except you're not
taking into account his level.
AFAIK the best AC BP he could wear would be Cobalt, everything else is
either no drop or level restricted. Of course that is still AC45 over AC21
but look at it this way, AC21 is only one short of Crafted (what level did
you upgrade to Crafted?) plus a crap load of regen that far excedes any buff
he'll be getting from group member.
>
> I won't even go into the specific reasons I thought this, but would
> rather leave it to you to confirm, deny, and/or back up as you see fit.
If he was 45+ and could then wear the high end player made armour then I'd
agree with you but until the 40's I would stick with the Fungi for Chest. I
take it his legs are at least 20+ Dragonleg Breeches and arms are at least
CC, on top of that he could also wear AC26 Blood Runed Gaunts and Helm of
Raldukan. The fungi will also pretty much hold it's value so when he can
upgrade to a more appropriate chest piece he can sell it for little loss and
pay far less for an out of date BP or get one of the newer ones (that are
bound to come with LoY)
> So, with the above conditions, what say you? Fungi or, for example,
> Fierce Heraldic or something else akin to that?
At 25th that would be about AC23 on him, my mule is 22nd level and I am
certain when I bought my Teir'dal Regent BP it's AC was low 20's to me, on
inspect.
CF
kaev
> This has raised it's head in another forum, and I want a sanity check to
> make sure I've not:
> 1. Totally lost my mind
> 2. Never understood melee equipment and strats
> or
> 3. Missed out on more recent changes in the game that changed things
> massively
>
> The scenario:
>
> Person creates a new warrior twink and has some cash to blow on him.
> (Not unlimited, but enough for fairly good gear.) This warrior is at
> around level 24/25 and still no where near the AC soft cap. Person
> decides to blow a good chunk of their cash getting a Fungi for the chest
> slot. (AC 21, but has the 15 HP/tick regen.)
Is there a droppable BP with more than 32 AC <at L25>? Heraldic is
recommended L45, so at 25 you only get about 55% of its bonuses.
Also, the softcap testing I've read about was done by high levels
fighting mobs like Katta Guards, for sub-L30 mobs the effective
softcap would be more like 700-800 (basing this on high twenties
mobs still doing noticeably more damage than low twenties against
an AC in the 600s).
> My understanding, since way back in the day, was that AC was God for
> warriors. Damage mitigation is > All.
I agree emphaticly. With a crappy STA and little in the way of HP
gear Kaev did well tanking in his 30s and 40s because I followed
that creed religiously (hey, he's a Paladin, gotta be religious
about something). But there is a point of diminishing returns
(the softcap). The twink in question should probably replace the
Fungi somewhere around L40 to L45, as the softcap for the mobs he
fights climbs to meet his AC. Also, as noted above, at 45 he can
get full benefit from player-made armor (and can use clicky effects
on the Kunark armor, Warriors get a couple nice effects there iirc).
> Assuming you are spending most of
> your time in groups with a healer available (which this twink in
> question confirmed was the case) and not soloing, wouldn't a nice 50 AC
> or more BP be a better investment for the BP slot than a fungi?
Don't think there's anything better than Royal Velium (32 AC) at that
low a level.
> Personally, unless you are trying to solo primarly, and looking to
> reduce downtime, I see the Fungi for a warrior being more of a novelty
> item, or very specific situational tool. Much like a manastone for a
> caster. (As I found out recently. They are not nearly all they are
> cracked up to be anymore.)
If he's doing random pickup groups it could well save him a few deaths.
And depending on his groups and where he's fighting it will also
speed the pace of his group's kills. That 150hp a minute regen is
pretty damned nice when that's more than 10% of your HP.
> I won't even go into the specific reasons I thought this, but would
> rather leave it to you to confirm, deny, and/or back up as you see fit.
>
> So, with the above conditions, what say you? Fungi or, for example,
> Fierce Heraldic or something else akin to that?
If money were no object, I'd probably go with a Fungi until L40 or so.
The regen is a nice advantage at low levels, you can keep your AC ahead
of the effective softcap for the mobs you're fighting with the gear you
have in your other slots, and the best droppable stuff I know of has
soft level restrictions that greatly reduce its effectiveness at low
levels.
Kaev
Wanbiky Trainstopper
"Freeman" <fre...@108dragons.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3e2d7334$1...@corp-news.newsgroups.com...
at 25 it would be 28ac 5str 3sta 22hp 22mana (at least on my BP it is) i
wear neriads steelweave BP wich IIRC is same as fierce ?
kaev
<snip>
> By the time you are even in your mid twenties, the mobs you are fighting
> are dishing out a hell of a lot more damage than 15HP every six seconds.
> WAY more.
Jazz, my L26 Warrior on Test has an AC in the 600s. Low 20s mobs
(dark blue to him) do less than 4 DPS to him. It takes my Shaman
roughly 5 seconds per cast to chain Inner Fire (20hp buff/heal),
and it actually gets cast less often than that because I swap
between the characters so I can Kick/Slam. The weaker mobs I pull
(the low twenties stuff) cannot damage him as fast as the Shaman
heals him. Less than 4 DPS is hardly "WAY" more than the 2.5 HPS
regen of a Fungi. The tougher mobs do more damage of course, but
that's because his AC isn't high enough to reach the softcap for
their better ATK bonus. If this twink's other armor is anywhere
near the relative cost of the Fungi (keeping in mind that BPs cost
a lot more than most other slots) he's above the softcap for any
mob he can hit reliably at his level.
> By the time you've stood toe to toe with the mob long enough
> to take a significant amount of damage, let's say three or four ticks go
> by. Even ignoring the damage mitigation issue (which you really can't)
> then with your Fungi you have 45 or 60 more HP than a tank without one.
> (out of what? Nearly 2K HP by that point?) The healers casts a heal at
> whatever point. Almost always, particularly with CHeal, that heal is
> going to be overkill. It's going to top you off or take you damned near
> to it. The heal spell doesn't have some magic intelligence to stop and
> say, "Whoa! Hold on! This ubah bastage has a fungi!! I better use a
> little less mana and heal him for less HP or it would be a waste."
>
> Nope. You get the same heal every which way.
>
> Now, add into that the fact that the person with better damage
> mitigation will have been taking less damage than the person with less
> AC. Even the slight edge in hit points that our Fungi wearer enjoyed is
> nibbled away by the fact that the Fungi Wearer is getting hit harder and
> more often.
Not unless his other gear is a whole lot poorer than the Fungi would
imply. You did say he was L24/25, right? You don't need a 1200 AC
to softcap sub-30 mobs.
> Nope... nope... I just don't see it.
It's situational. :) The higher the twink's level the stronger
your argument becomes. It scales with the ATK of the mobs he's
tanking. By L45 he'll be able to have 2k-ish HP, Clerics he groups
with will have CHeal, mobs he'll tank hurt you bad unless your AC
is high (I recall getting slapped around some with an 850-ish AC,
I watched Rangers get creamed with 750-ish ACs), and he'll be able
to get full benefit from player-made and Kunark armors.
Kaev
Richard Lawson
<snip>
Nothing really new to add that other people haven't already commented on,
only to say that:
> So, with the above conditions, what say you? Fungi or,
> for example, Fierce Heraldic or something else akin to that?
Fierce Heraldic is not a good example because it's only useable by levels 45
and above. Otherwise it would make really awesome twink armor.
-Richard
Monual Lifegiver
High Priest of Rodcet Nife
Winter's Light
Drinal server
kaev
> "jaZZmanian Devil" wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Nothing really new to add that other people haven't already commented on,
> only to say that:
>
>
>>So, with the above conditions, what say you? Fungi or,
>>for example, Fierce Heraldic or something else akin to that?
>>
>
> Fierce Heraldic is not a good example because it's only useable by levels 45
> and above. Otherwise it would make really awesome twink armor.
The limitation is recommended, not required. By L35 or so the top-end
racial armors are pretty decent (you'd get 7/9 of the bonuses at 35).
Kaev
-Martin
> Okay and I'm not uber or such. At least you get my point...
I never for one second said fungi isnt good.. my SK had one from about level
10 and it worked great.
The point is tho, u specifically said "high end".. and at high end, fungi is
nothing more than situational gear. I can go a month without wearing my
fungi (monk) but I'd never get rid of it
-m
Xevbear
IMHO a fungi on a warrior is nonsense unless you need to solo your
warrior, and have e. g. cobalt in his other slots to hit the AC
softcap at low levels. At 45 it becomes virtually obsolete with the
100 HP heal on the cobalt BP, with vastly superior stats.
I could see the use of fungis on monk or shaman twinks, again to
inhance the solo abilites, but anyone past level 50 wearing a fungi
better play someone that never gets hit (what in turn makes the fungi
obsolete again).
sanjian
news:48eX9.1976$P54.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> "newshound007" <newsho...@freedom.net> wrote in message
> > Um, somebody with 1200AC and can see the value of 15hps/tick vs the
value
> > of a, let's say a, 150hp item?
>
> Im at over 1400ac, pretty much ever monk in my guild is, and nobody wears
a
> fungi.
>
> Maybe we just all suck and don't understand our classes? And it is a
> choice thing.. Id say 99% of us has a fungi in their inventory.. we just
> don't wear it day-to-day
>
> I personally never see anybody "high end" that wears a fungi... in my
guild
> or any other.
CIHYFT?
Jeff Lindholm
KEI now, but if a shaman needs mana fast regrowth + fungal tunic makes
can'ing the mana not nearly as slow a recovery process.
So even post 50 a shaman could and does benefit from a fungal.
Also post 50 a shaman can't take the hits like they used to so he should not
be getting hit all that often.
"Xevbear" <go...@unm.edu> wrote in message
news:69e50a7b.03012...@posting.google.com...