Do rogues really do more damage?
Billy Shields
combination of a Crystalline Spear, Bone Razor and Eyerazzia
a 50 rogue averages nearly 25 damage/second with melee damage
excluding backstab.
I've also ran numbers on various ranger combos and come up
with about the same figure (using various planes/god/dragon
weapons).
On top of this rogues get backstab. Backstab has an 8 second
cycle right? How do the numbers tend to work out in terms
of average damage as a function of weapon damage? Has anyone
got any figures on this.
Does this balance out all the procs the rogue is missing out
on? And for a warrior does it balance out their criticals and
crippling blows?
Plus the various tanks get kick and/or slam which adds (if
memory serves) almost another 3 damage/second.
I'm not sure the rogue has as much of an advantage as some
seem to think.
Also does the rogue share the same skill caps for dual wield
and double attack as other classes? I know their level cap
for dual wield is higher (7*level+7 or something) but what
about their hard cap?
To me it seems like the difference is marginal at best (at least
based on these numbers). The advantage the rogue has is that
it can fire off that backstab at appropriate moments for a
carefully timed burst of damage.
CB
play a Ranger) and he seems to do more damage than me. Rangers duel wield is
capped at (5*lvl)+5) which I think is the same as warriors. It caps at 200.
Our spells do some reasonable damage for a melee class but the trouble is,
in the time it takes to cast you can do as much damage with your swords, so
they arnt realy as usefull as backstab, damage wise.
What I would say is that please dont judge a class on how much damage they
can do, It realy shouldnt come down to that. I think rogues are a good class
and when they fix poison it will be even better to group with them.
Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:38d8981f$0$18...@motown.iinet.net.au...
Alasdair Allan
> I just ran some numbers through my spreadsheet and with any
> combination of a Crystalline Spear, Bone Razor and Eyerazzia
> a 50 rogue averages nearly 25 damage/second with melee damage
> excluding backstab.
The Rogue Planar weapons are... dis-appointing. But this is mainly because
of badly designed (i.e. overpowered) Ranger and Warrior 1h weapons.
> I've also ran numbers on various ranger combos and come up
> with about the same figure (using various planes/god/dragon
> weapons).
A different team is making Ranger weapons. They don't understand the
formulas. They are very, very out of sync.
> On top of this rogues get backstab. Backstab has an 8 second
> cycle right?
If a Rogue is using Backstab and always getting to Backstab then they have,
at level 50 a 100/70 weapon (about a 150/70 but no Double attack so subtract
33%). Remember that SLTW/Haste apply to the delay on Backstab.
> How do the numbers tend to work out in terms
> of average damage as a function of weapon damage?
A level 50 Rogue with a standard 10 damage weapon will BS for 50 to 250.
With a Crystalline Spear they will BS for 50 to 300.
> Has anyone
> got any figures on this.
I don't know of any Rogue websites.
> Does this balance out all the procs the rogue is missing out
> on?
Well pre-planes, the Rogue has the best range of procs out there. Post
Planes, the Rogue gets fucked over quite badly but they are still the
strongest melée class. They do lose a chunk of their advantage.
> And for a warrior does it balance out their criticals and
> crippling blows?
Yeah, it does overcome it. Remember, even if they are *not* Backstabbing,
their Backstab skill gives them an additional attack with their weapons
normal damage. So thats an additional 10/70, equivalent to Bash and better
than Kick.
> Plus the various tanks get kick and/or slam which adds (if
> memory serves) almost another 3 damage/second.
>
> I'm not sure the rogue has as much of an advantage as some
> seem to think.
Before the Planes the advantage is real enough. With the right Planar gear,
a Warrior or Ranger will *equal* a Rogue who is fighting full frontal.
However, backstabbin the Rogue will pull away.
You'll have seen me mention the abhorance that is Crits before and yes, they
have reduced some of the advantages. But they aren't reliable and therefore
a good Rogue has more flexibility than the good Warrior.
> Also does the rogue share the same skill caps for dual wield
> and double attack as other classes? I know their level cap
> for dual wield is higher (7*level+7 or something) but what
> about their hard cap?
Adar posted it recently, one of the Rogue caps is higher - I think it was
Dual Wield, it may have been Double Attack. They aren't as fortunate as
Monks but they do get some advantage here.
> To me it seems like the difference is marginal at best (at least
> based on these numbers). The advantage the rogue has is that
> it can fire off that backstab at appropriate moments for a
> carefully timed burst of damage.
Well played the advantage is huge. Remember that the Warrior/Ranger needs
Spined Claws and Briarzephyrs to equate what the Rogue can do with much
easier Planar gear. Of course this would change if Rogues became popular
(as their likelihood of a Bone Razor/Eyerazzia would decrease.
However, a Rogue with an SBD and Ykesha will outdamage a dual wielding EBW
Warrior greatly thanks to that extra 100/70 weapon called Backstab.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
bf...@my-deja.com
>
> I don't know of any Rogue websites.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Sean
Kicks: 31 Kicked For: 1296 Average Kick: 41.8064516129032
Punches: 257 Punched for: 4466 Average Punch: 17.3774319066148
Misses: 214
Total Attack (attempts): 502
Total Attacks (successful): 288
Total Damage: 5762
Average Attack: 20.0069444444444
Stats for: Deluin, a level 30 rogue using a gloomwater harpoon primary and
stun whip secondary
Slashes: 292 Slashed For: 1671 Average Slash: 5.72260273972603
Pierces: 341 Pierced For: 5297 Average Pierce: 15.533724340176
Backstabs: 41 Stabbed for 2625 Average Stab: 64.0243902439024
Misses: 386
Total Attack (attempts): 1060
Total Attacks (successful): 674
Total Damage: 9593
Average Attack: 14.2329376854599
Stats for: Deluin, a level 30 rogue excluding slash damage from stun whip
Pierces: 341 Pierced For: 5297 Average Pierce: 15.533724340176
Backstabs: 41 Stabbed for 2625 Average Stab: 64.0243902439024
Misses: 386
Total Attack (attempts): 768
Total Attacks (successful): 382
Total Damage: 7922
Average Attack: 20.738219895288
--
Sean S. -:- ICQ: 1826323
Zap small files with Zap `Em - http://home.rochester.rr.com/zapem
Visit www.ZenSearch.com a 100% quality search engine
EQ Log Renamed: http://home.rochester.rr.com/zapem/eq
(Email: sunymoon <AT> GeoCities >DOT< com )
"I tell you, there's nothing we're afraid to nerf. :)" - Brad McQuaid;
Everquest Producer
Billy Shields wrote in message <38d8981f$0$18...@motown.iinet.net.au>...
>I just ran some numbers through my spreadsheet and with any
>combination of a Crystalline Spear, Bone Razor and Eyerazzia
>a 50 rogue averages nearly 25 damage/second with melee damage
>excluding backstab.
>
>I've also ran numbers on various ranger combos and come up
>with about the same figure (using various planes/god/dragon
>weapons).
>
>On top of this rogues get backstab. Backstab has an 8 second
>cycle right? How do the numbers tend to work out in terms
>of average damage as a function of weapon damage? Has anyone
>got any figures on this.
>
>Does this balance out all the procs the rogue is missing out
>on? And for a warrior does it balance out their criticals and
>crippling blows?
>
>Plus the various tanks get kick and/or slam which adds (if
>memory serves) almost another 3 damage/second.
>
>I'm not sure the rogue has as much of an advantage as some
>seem to think.
>
>Also does the rogue share the same skill caps for dual wield
>and double attack as other classes? I know their level cap
>for dual wield is higher (7*level+7 or something) but what
>about their hard cap?
>
Billy Shields
: Billy Shields <ran...@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote
:> I just ran some numbers through my spreadsheet and with any
:> combination of a Crystalline Spear, Bone Razor and Eyerazzia
:> a 50 rogue averages nearly 25 damage/second with melee damage
:> excluding backstab.
: The Rogue Planar weapons are... dis-appointing. But this is mainly because
: of badly designed (i.e. overpowered) Ranger and Warrior 1h weapons.
A warrior in my guild uses (I think) Bloodfire and SDClaws. I
watch this and wonder "what was Verant thinking?".
The best planes piercer for rogues I believe is Vexthorne (9/19).
It certainly outdamages the Bone RAzor and (certainly) Eyerazzia.
Thats as good as the ranger Briarzephyr.
:> I've also ran numbers on various ranger combos and come up
:> with about the same figure (using various planes/god/dragon
:> weapons).
: A different team is making Ranger weapons. They don't understand the
: formulas. They are very, very out of sync.
:> On top of this rogues get backstab. Backstab has an 8 second
:> cycle right?
: If a Rogue is using Backstab and always getting to Backstab then they have,
: at level 50 a 100/70 weapon (about a 150/70 but no Double attack so subtract
: 33%). Remember that SLTW/Haste apply to the delay on Backstab.
7 second delay? Are you icnluding FBSS/RBB/CoF haste or similar
to that? A rogue I spoke to in my guild seemed to be of the
impression that backstab was a 10 second cycle and averaged
about 156 damage with a Crystalline Spear.
:> How do the numbers tend to work out in terms
:> of average damage as a function of weapon damage?
: A level 50 Rogue with a standard 10 damage weapon will BS for 50 to 250.
: With a Crystalline Spear they will BS for 50 to 300.
Assuming a 10 second cycle (since backstab scales with haste then
lets assume unhasted) thats 15/second. That is pretty significant
but it is optimal the situation won't always be optimal (ie they
won't always get a rear attack when backstab cycles).
:> Has anyone
:> got any figures on this.
: I don't know of any Rogue websites.
:> Does this balance out all the procs the rogue is missing out
:> on?
: Well pre-planes, the Rogue has the best range of procs out there. Post
: Planes, the Rogue gets fucked over quite badly but they are still the
: strongest melée class. They do lose a chunk of their advantage.
Hmm, looking at the pre-planes procs:
SBD: Engulfing Darkness (this isn't compatiable with snare or root)
Bloodclaw: Bloodclaw effect (~50 points total over 2-3 ticks)
Burning Rapier: Shock of Fire (16 DD, woo hoo! :P)
Gold Plated Koshigatona: Dismiss Summoned
Hmm, don't know of any others.
Does that match the proc of the Ykesha? I'm not entirely convinced
it does. Of course you can swap them in and out to get different
procs (so you don't waste a proc on overwriting the DoT from a
previous proc) but this can have you wielding inferior weapons
reducing your overall non-proc damage.
And remember that the SBD has inferior stats to either the Ykesha
or EBW.
I've yet to be convinced that rogues have the huge pre-planes
advantage that you elude to.
:> And for a warrior does it balance out their criticals and
:> crippling blows?
: Yeah, it does overcome it. Remember, even if they are *not* Backstabbing,
: their Backstab skill gives them an additional attack with their weapons
: normal damage. So thats an additional 10/70, equivalent to Bash and better
: than Kick.
If its equivalent then how is it better? You're relying on rear
attacks you may not get and using inferior weapons to do it. Of
course theres nothing stopping a rogue using Ykeshas and the
like and simply swapping in a piercer to backstab but for some
reason I haven't quite worked out I've yet to see a rogue do it.
:> Plus the various tanks get kick and/or slam which adds (if
:> memory serves) almost another 3 damage/second.
:>
:> I'm not sure the rogue has as much of an advantage as some
:> seem to think.
: Before the Planes the advantage is real enough. With the right Planar gear,
: a Warrior or Ranger will *equal* a Rogue who is fighting full frontal.
: However, backstabbin the Rogue will pull away.
Which implies that rogues need a partner who can taunt as much as
they can. Doesn't bode well for the shaman/rogue due does it?
Now enchanter/rogue has possibilities. :-) Of course you have no
healing, heh.
: You'll have seen me mention the abhorance that is Crits before and yes, they
: have reduced some of the advantages. But they aren't reliable and therefore
: a good Rogue has more flexibility than the good Warrior.
You, the adovcate of average damage/hour, are now pushing
flexibility? :-)
:> Also does the rogue share the same skill caps for dual wield
:> and double attack as other classes? I know their level cap
:> for dual wield is higher (7*level+7 or something) but what
:> about their hard cap?
: Adar posted it recently, one of the Rogue caps is higher - I think it was
: Dual Wield, it may have been Double Attack. They aren't as fortunate as
: Monks but they do get some advantage here.
Dual wield caps at 210 is my understanding.
:> To me it seems like the difference is marginal at best (at least
:> based on these numbers). The advantage the rogue has is that
:> it can fire off that backstab at appropriate moments for a
:> carefully timed burst of damage.
: Well played the advantage is huge. Remember that the Warrior/Ranger needs
: Spined Claws and Briarzephyrs to equate what the Rogue can do with much
: easier Planar gear. Of course this would change if Rogues became popular
: (as their likelihood of a Bone Razor/Eyerazzia would decrease.
I've been looking at this. The Fluxbladed Axe to the Ranger is
what the Eyerazzia is to the Rogue--they almost get one for
simply showing up in the planes. Based on my calculations the
FBA is extremely close to the Briarzephyr (which is the other
contender for best weapon) and better if they're fighting
something that doesn't resist the proc much (or at all).
And then theres the Mistwalker (again "what were they thinking?").
: However, a Rogue with an SBD and Ykesha will outdamage a dual wielding EBW
: Warrior greatly thanks to that extra 100/70 weapon called Backstab.
I'm still not convinced the margin is that large.
Steven H
<posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Has anyone
>> got any figures on this.
>
>I don't know of any Rogue websites.
http://server3.ezboard.com/bthesafehouse
though at first glance it seems like a boardroom it has a read only
library section that has a surprisingly large amount of information.
i think i remember them mentioning the backstab formula thought they
admittedly it only really applied to low levels (and find myself
hitting harder than the formula implies).
but you said you never knew of any rogue websites so thought this may
be of some help. most interesting reading being a very comprehensive
guide to Hate covering every mob and which ones can see through
sneaking.
Quercus
any class.
From the front, we are pretty much warriors who tank like
rangers.
From the back, we are unparalleled.
A few notes:
* Backstab has a natural refresh of 10 seconds. It is affected
by haste items and spells. (I believe the refresh is capped at
5 seconds, though)
* We get dual wield, offense, and piercing to 210.
* We get very high defensive skills (150 in dodge, 200 in parry,
riposte, and defense).
* Evade, though not strictly speaking a damage skill, enables
rogues to dramatically increase their damage output by acting as
a "reverse taunt."
Rogues are very, very powerful at the high levels.
--Latro Abiectus
--Level 50 Rogue, test server
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!