My take on Play Nice (long)
demonik...@demonic.com
out very well at all. For example.. if several groups of people spend
6 hours clearing Fear to kill Cazic Thule, does this then mean that
another set of groups can show up in the nicely cleared Plane and demand
to get in on the Cazic gig? Play Nice rules make it seem likely that
a gm would enforce the new policy there. What about all the trouble
that the players who had come before went to?
I have heard many examples of players using Play Nice to essentially
harass other players. (Is this screwy or what?) Player X is camping
for Item Y. Player Z comes in and says "I want! Lemme in on camp!"
Player X says "I have been here all day without one spawn. I really
want the next one!" Player Z says "I am petitioning." Guide shows up,
and makes them roll for the chance to kill the next named. I can
see situations where caster classes would bind themselves at timed
spawns, show up a few mins beforehand to make sure they get their
petition answered, and not have to bother with teh trouble of keeping
a spawn staggered or an area clear. Just roll in and demand in on
the camp. Threaten Play Nice.
Another issue is that a lot of players who are very high level wear
mid level items because of stat bonuses. My warrior has some
high level gear, but lots of casters wear stuff from Sol A and the
like all the way to 50. (I see lots of level 50 clerics wearing
gator legs, foreman's tunics, etc.) Getting these items at an
"appropriate" level can level you right past the point of getting
experience for the camp. I see nothing wrong with a level 40 cleric
camping for a charred guardian shield if he doesn't have one. On
the other hand, if someone is in there farming for items that they
already have, then other players should get the chance to get the
item first.
It seems to me that Verant is using Play Nice to avoid solving the
real issue - camping. EVERYTHING in this game involves camping. Why
does camping happen? It's easy, and everyone knows how it works by
now. Named spawn ALWAYS appears in Spot X at a specific interval of
time after the last one died. Verant refuses to back down, saying
that they need to control how fast items enter the world and that
the spirit of the game requires that people know that your two yaks
came off of the Ghoul Lord. Even quests require camping. (I will
be doing the cleric armor quests soon, and I dread it.)
So, how to solve the camping/items issue? Lots of solutions have been
proposed, and Verant has poo pooed almost all of them. It seems to
me that some items are in super high demand and heavily camped.. Why
not have these items available in more than one place with different
names? So you could either try for a shiny metal robe in Lower Guk,
or get a robe with the same stats in Solusek B somewhere, only instead
of purple it is blue or some such thing. Have more items appear on
spawns outdoors with great stats. I really don't see WHY all the really
good stuff has to come off of some frog or dog in the depths of
a dungeon, as long as the mob you have to kill is appropriately difficult
and rare enough outdoors. On mature servers, getting to the ghoul lord
is as tough as running to SplitPaw in S Karana. Newbies can survive for
hours in most high level dungeons these days. =)
Players WILL find a way to get the items they want, and often it costs
other players a good gaming experience. If the non planes robe to get is
the SMR, then a caster will either camp it for days on end or farm lower
level dungeons to trade for higher end items or cash.
Asking people to play nice is important, I think. Lots of unfair stuff
happens to everyone because some player or group is being rude or
whatnot. But this policy is flawed in its conception because it is being
used for harassment and muscling in on camps.
ok, rant over.
~*Megwedariel Drakonblayde*~ | <= *unguilded* =>
Wood Elf Warrior of Kelethin, The Rathe (Level 50)
Motto: Tanks do it better.
NBarnes
> It is my humble opinion that the play nice policies weren't
> thought out very well at all. For example.. if several groups of
> people spend 6 hours clearing Fear to kill Cazic Thule, does this
> then mean that another set of groups can show up in the nicely
> cleared Plane and demand to get in on the Cazic gig? Play Nice
> rules make it seem likely that a gm would enforce the new policy
> there. What about all the trouble that the players who had come
> before went to?
Play Nice says that they are entitled to a fair rotation on
spawns. Considering that Team A was there first, I'm sure any GM
would consider it fair if Team Johnny-Come-Lately was put into
the rotation after Team A, and be fully entitled to the next spawn
of Cazic (a week after he's killed... heh).
NBarnes
Skip Ledford
it is neccessary for the spirit of the game to have fixed encounters, and
they want to control the amount of an item in the game. Therefore we have
nice items (which everyone wants) being heavily camped because its a "fixed
encounter." None of my characters are really high enough level to camp a
lot of the nice items, but I have experience with camping the tower in CB,
and really the whole aspect of "camping" is against the spirit of the game
they want. Sure you can go in and "do" a dungeon, but by the time you get
through to a nice area, it is camped since everyone and his brother know
what is there.
Personally I think more items should drop off of random mobs in the
wilderness and dungeons. They could make them VERY VERY rare drops, but
that would encourage people to go get XP and if they get something nice, its
a nice treat. I got leather boots twice off of low level skeleons when
playing a newbie gnome and was thrilled to death (I assumed they were legit
drops because it happened twice, separated by a long period of time).
Another time I got a nice item off of a wandering named mob in a wilderness
zone. Stuff like THAT makes the game fun, not sitting a dungeon twidling
your thumbs.
<demonik...@demonic.com> wrote in message
news:qI6D4.139$3i1....@wormhole.dimensional.com...
Alasdair Allan
demonik...@demonic.com wrote
> So, how to solve the camping/items issue? Lots of solutions have been
> proposed, and Verant has poo pooed almost all of them. It seems to
> me that some items are in super high demand and heavily camped.. Why
> not have these items available in more than one place with different
> names?
It's strange.
you will find all Wis based casters need Gator Legs because, to be honest,
there is *nothing* else worn on the leg that offers wisdom! There is no
progression in the item.
For example, they recently introduced a range of Shaman Spears. Watch for
the pattern :-
Goblin Sticker 7/30ish Wis+1 Runnyeye
Forget Name 8/33ish Wis+2 Najena
Ebon war Spear 8/30ish Wis+3 Aviak Island, OOT
Tisch Val Sinisch 9/33ish Wis+4 Paw II
Barb fishing Spear 10/31 Wis+5 Permafrost Bear Pit
Darksea Harpoon 10/27 Wis+5 Kedge Keep
See the patter, you get the easy spear at level 15 and work up - level 20
you get the forget Name, level 30 you get the Ebon, level 35 you get the
Sinisch, level 40+ you get a Darksea or Barb Fishing.
Now *that* is item design.
Why doesn't it exist on other items? Why don't they implement *series* of
items instead of individual pieces!
Verant *can* do it right, they simply don't seem to do so consistently.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
Eric Schnoor
Eric
Alasdair Allan <posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:01bf98bc$90ae9f60$240201c0@dell40...
Alasdair Allan
> Alasdair Allan <posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote
> > See the patter, you get the easy spear at level 15 and work up - level
20
> > you get the forget Name, level 30 you get the Ebon, level 35 you get the
> > Sinisch, level 40+ you get a Darksea or Barb Fishing.
> >
> > Now *that* is item design.
> >
> > Why doesn't it exist on other items? Why don't they implement *series*
of
> > items instead of individual pieces!
> >
> > Verant *can* do it right, they simply don't seem to do so consistently.
>
Ah fuck off you pedantic little cunt. The point is made and stupid,
moronic, *unrealistically rare* exceptions don't matter!
Aymen Tadat
simple fact. If I don't have enough mana to keep everyone alive, we're all
going to die. I trust my tanks to be able to taunt the mobs off of me, and
I am rarely disappointed. My AC has been below 500 all of my career (I'm
level 36 now) and the only deaths I've had were due to massive trains where
everyone in my group was doomed from the start. I have yet to die because I
didn't have enough AC, I have saved LOTS of lives though because I had
enough mana to get that last heal off.
Clerics, DON'T sacrifice wisdom for AC. PLEASE... don't. You and your
group will live longer.
kfa <k...@one.net.au> wrote in message news:38e0...@pink.one.net.au...
> And I suppose you believe in the phillosophy that Wis is everything to
> shamans, clerics, druids
> This is true if you are in a solo kiting situation but hardly true
> otherwise.
>
> Most druids I know go for all wis and they suffer horribly the second they
> step into a dungeon.
> Simply put they cant take the hits.
> My shaman has wis items (including gators) can give me 180 wis but i
almost
> always leave 3-4 wis items packed away in favor of my totem armor. Why
> because once you have cast the first spell wis only matters IF (big IF)
you
> can med to full. In a dungeon this almost never happens if you have a nice
> continuos flow of mobs. Therefore im happy to sacrifice 15 wis in favor of
> 50 AC more. When things get ugly and im throwing heals taunting mobs onto
me
> i can take the hits and still be effective. No way i can do that in my wis
> outfit.
>
> The same applies to Clerics - yes wis matters but not at the expense of
the
> Armor that will keep them alive when it matters.
>
>
>
>
> Alasdair Allan wrote in message <01bf98cc$35355060$240201c0@dell40>...
Eric Schnoor
are actually one of the more common cleric drops in the planes.
Eric
Alasdair Allan <posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:01bf98cc$35355060> Ah fuck off you pedantic little cunt. The point is
abatt...@netscape.net
> I beg to differ. Wisdom is indeed king for clerics in particluar. It's a
how often are you going to get to med FULL?
that is a seriously good point to have in the argument of AC vs. WIS gear. i
am finding myself only full mana if there's an enchanter with clarity.
otherwise, i'm casting too few spells for the extra mana to make a difference.
here's some facts in *MY* experience. your mileage may vary.
some stats first:
shaman
level: 40
wisdom: 139 in AC gear, 159 in WIS gear
approx mana (via caster's realm calc):
1192 ~= 238 mana per bubble
1352 ~= 270 mana per bubble
difference: 160. ie, one spell.
i'll use a dungeon scenario first.
in solB, i was in the champ room fighting kobolds like mad. we had a bard,
warrior, wizard, ranger, paladin, and of course a shaman. the paladin was
pulling. CONSTANTLY. the only time we weren't fighting was when he was
grabbing something. i was casting Togor's on multiple mobs (175 mana),
greater healing on those who needed it, venom of snake wasn't needed most of
the time, it didn't add enough to the damage since we had a level 44 wizard
blowing things up. the bard was singing the mana song, and my mana never once
went below 2 bubbles, or ~540 mana. i was there for two and a half hours. so
it wasn't like this was a short time or anything. i was wearing the wisdom
gear.
now for an outdoor setting.
i was fighting dorfs in butcherblock. this time i wore totemic (hadn't taken
it off and was testing these theories). my group consisted of: two druids
(39th and 42nd), mage (35) and again, me. shaman extraordinaire :). we had
the following BB spawns:
den ironblend + 2 in the huts, dalbar and lann
darm and gand* just down the road from the docks
signus, not far from druid circle
so we had a total of six dorfs. normally the three spawn can keep a group low
mana and busy. but not us! we were maniacs! :) anyway, my spell use looked
like: malisement, flash of light, venom of snake, winter's roar. healing was
a downtime thing, or emergency only. but regardless, i didn't go below 1
bubble of mana the entire afternoon (approximately 4 hours). thats staying at
least at 238 mana.
my conclusion is that the wis gear doesn't buy me a whole lot in terms of mana
in any case. i didn't need to have the extra 160 mana, as i never got that
low in either case. and in fact, the only time i've run completely out of
mana was when i soloed gull skytalon in OOT (he showed up when i was looking
for the one with my spear. (no clerics in the zone at the time, so now i have
the ingot...). even then, i still had enough to flash of light, root, med,
heal myself, root again and med to poison him. :).
perhaps for some people they go out of mana a lot. i find myself casting
spells almost continuously and able to keep casting.
> simple fact. If I don't have enough mana to keep everyone alive, we're all
shut up, sit down, meditate. i've had to tell clerics that in groups because
they'll be half or lower mana and in melee.
> going to die. I trust my tanks to be able to taunt the mobs off of me, and
you can't always trust that, as i have found. one night in innothule swamp,
two warriors and a monk couldn't get a basher off me after i cast one venom of
snake on him. not until he was dead anyway... :)
> I am rarely disappointed. My AC has been below 500 all of my career (I'm
> level 36 now) and the only deaths I've had were due to massive trains where
> everyone in my group was doomed from the start. I have yet to die because I
my AC is almost 700 now, in full totemic minus bracers (RMB looks neat :).
> didn't have enough AC, I have saved LOTS of lives though because I had
> enough mana to get that last heal off.
i have heard people claim this, but how do you know you didn't have another
heal in you? because you tried to cast one and got "insufficient mana to cast
spell"? if you got that and it didn't matter anyway since you got the
previous heal, whats the difference? in my case i have a difference of 160
mana. thats 10 mana more than 1 greater heal - that one last heal..
> Clerics, DON'T sacrifice wisdom for AC. PLEASE... don't. You and your
> group will live longer.
bah. i've lived just fine with clerics in golden armor, or patched together
wis armor. i'd rather the cleric not get slaughtered because he aggroed
something on himself for healing the group.
this is a speculative topic. you can't flame a speculation, really. so no
flaming :P
cat flame > /dev/null
:P
--
josh
demonik...@demonic.com
ann: Aymen Tadat <delt...@flash.net> wrote:
ann: something on himself for healing the group.
ann: this is a speculative topic. you can't flame a speculation, really. so no
ann: flaming :P
ann: cat flame > /dev/null
ann: :P
Wisdom is a MUCH bigger deal at later levels then in earlier ones. A cleric
at 200 wis PLUS +MANA items will be able to one more complete heal off than
a cleric that is wearing just 200 wis or even less than 200 wis. In dragon
and plane situations, this is a huge deal. My little level 15 cleric has
183 wis with her +MANA items on and 193 WIS with just wis items on. AC is
400+ buffed. Most good clerics I have ever worked with did one of the
following when getting beat on:
In desperate situations, divine.
In not so desperate situations, stun/root and step away.
In the tank is royally screwing up situations, they say "Can't heal
with this trash on me" and calmly wait for the tank to wake up and
mash taunt.
I am too lazy right now to get the AC suit vs. the wis suit going.
I knew for sure that 200 wis was my goal, and went for wis. Upgrades
to better AC items will come next, but wis will never be compromised
for AC unless WIS has surpassed the 200 point.
But all of this digresses from my original point. =)
kfa
Alasdair Allan
>Alasdair Allan wrote
>>Ah fuck off you pedantic little cunt. The point is made and stupid,
>>moronic, *unrealistically rare* exceptions don't matter!
>
>shamans, clerics, druids
>This is true if you are in a solo kiting situation but hardly true
>otherwise.
>
>Most druids I know go for all wis and they suffer horribly the second
they
>step into a dungeon.
>Simply put they cant take the hits.
>My shaman has wis items (including gators) can give me 180 wis but i
almost
>always leave 3-4 wis items packed away in favor of my totem armor. Why
>because once you have cast the first spell wis only matters IF (big IF)
you
>can med to full.
I think your grandmother was wanting some lessons in egg sooking, best
toddle along and give them.
--
Regards,
Alasdair
Alasdair Allan
abatt...@netscape.net wrote in message ...
>Aymen Tadat <delt...@flash.net> wrote:
>> I beg to differ. Wisdom is indeed king for clerics in particluar.
It's a
>
>how often are you going to get to med FULL?
>
>that is a seriously good point to have in the argument of AC vs. WIS
gear. i
>am finding myself only full mana if there's an enchanter with clarity.
>otherwise, i'm casting too few spells for the extra mana to make a
difference.
>
>here's some facts in *MY* experience. your mileage may vary.
>
>some stats first:
>shaman
>level: 40
>wisdom: 139 in AC gear, 159 in WIS gear
>approx mana (via caster's realm calc):
> 1192 ~= 238 mana per bubble
> 1352 ~= 270 mana per bubble
>difference: 160. ie, one spell.
Which is pretty much what I've always advocated.
The *only* time I need to maximise my mana is when :-
i. I'm soloing
ii. The mob has more than 6,000hps
iii.The mob is capable of over 200damage per round
As you can imagine, that is a pretty rare situation. But it can occur so
I keep a bag with Efreeti Boots, Foreman's Tunic (I'm lazy), Totemic Helm,
Molten Cloak and Mithril Bracer along with a Battleworn Morningstar and
Charred Guardian Shield).
I'll go down from about Ac770 to Ac740 (720 if I compromise and 2h) but go
from 150 to 190 wisdom.
As I said it's rare but worth having a bag of wisdom kit. And to make
that suit, anyone without +wisdom Planar Legs needs Gatorscale. Plain and
simple.
--
Regards,
Alasdair
Billy Shields
: As you can imagine, that is a pretty rare situation. But it can occur so
: I keep a bag with Efreeti Boots, Foreman's Tunic (I'm lazy), Totemic Helm,
: Molten Cloak and Mithril Bracer along with a Battleworn Morningstar and
: Charred Guardian Shield).
Ok, my only question is this: why do you keep your totemic helm in
a bag? It has like 10 or 12 AC and +5 wisdom to boot. What the
hell else would a shaman wear there?
And while we're on the subject what would you wear on these slots
instead?
JackiePrice
> I keep a bag with Efreeti Boots, Foreman's Tunic (I'm lazy), Totemic Helm,
> Molten Cloak and Mithril Bracer along with a Battleworn Morningstar and
> Charred Guardian Shield).
>
Okay, excuse my step out of being ladylike for a moment, scotsman, but I
want to speak in a language you understand: HOW FUCKING LAZY CAN YOU
POSSIBLY BE?
Get a fucking bloodstained tunic, instead of that foreman's tunic! It's the
same goddamned price, has more AC, and more wisdom! FUCKWIT!
Just kidding, by the way... *grins*
Alasdair Allan
> Alasdair Allan <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> : As you can imagine, that is a pretty rare situation. But it can occur
so
> : I keep a bag with Efreeti Boots, Foreman's Tunic (I'm lazy), Totemic
Helm,
> : Molten Cloak and Mithril Bracer along with a Battleworn Morningstar and
> : Charred Guardian Shield).
>
> a bag? It has like 10 or 12 AC and +5 wisdom to boot. What the
> hell else would a shaman wear there?
Well, I spent 41 hours *getting* the Rune Etched Helm!
> And while we're on the subject what would you wear on these slots
> instead?
Boots - Totemic, until I get Rune Etched.
Chest - Totemic, until I get Rune Etched.
Cloak - Totemic, until I get a White Dragonscale Cloak (as if)!
Wrist - Totemic, until I get a second Rune Etched
Legs - Totemic, until I got Rune Etched.
All these provide a massive increase in Armour Class.
The Helm is more marginal, in fact, using the Rune Etched Helm is really
just for fun as it is only Ac14, compared to the Totemic's Ac12 and of
course the Helm is the Totemic Wisdom Piece and the Rune Etched offers none.
However the four listed above are significantly better for AC than the
Wisdom equivalent.
abatt...@netscape.net
> Which is pretty much what I've always advocated.
i like when people agree with me, saves so much annoying junk posts. :)
> i. I'm soloing
i've been wearing my full totemic gear when soloing too. only ran out last
night soloing dorfs because the wench kept resisting venom of snake. more
mana wouldn't have helped any, she resisted the root and flash of light i
tried to cast to buy time to med (well, got one root so i could finally get a
venom to stick...)
> ii. The mob has more than 6,000hps
the mob with the most i've fought is probably the froglok king last night :)
> iii.The mob is capable of over 200damage per round
haven't had this except for counting double attack.
> I keep a bag with Efreeti Boots, Foreman's Tunic (I'm lazy), Totemic Helm,
> Molten Cloak and Mithril Bracer along with a Battleworn Morningstar and
> Charred Guardian Shield).
my +wis gear (sorry, only level 40 and gotten it all myself :P) - plat arms,
bloodstained tunic, gatorscale legs, charred guardian shield. i move the ebon
war spear to weapon from range (until i get a darksea harpoon :).
> I'll go down from about Ac770 to Ac740 (720 if I compromise and 2h) but go
> from 150 to 190 wisdom.
i'll hvae to look, i have no idea what my ac is in armor and wisdom. but wis
goes from 139 to 159.
> As I said it's rare but worth having a bag of wisdom kit. And to make
> that suit, anyone without +wisdom Planar Legs needs Gatorscale. Plain and
> simple.
i haven't gone to the planes yet. but of the shamans on tribunal that have, i
think all of them have the legs.
--
josh
Sang K. Choe
>And I suppose you believe in the phillosophy that Wis is everything to
>shamans, clerics, druids
>This is true if you are in a solo kiting situation but hardly true
>otherwise.
>
>Most druids I know go for all wis and they suffer horribly the second they
>step into a dungeon.
>Simply put they cant take the hits.
>My shaman has wis items (including gators) can give me 180 wis but i almost
>always leave 3-4 wis items packed away in favor of my totem armor.
Shamans can do this because they have the *choice* to wear a better
(read significantly higher AC) armor. Druids as a rule do not. The
only piece before the planes and dragons which offer significant AC
boost over a WIS gear that a druid can wear is the nightshade vs.
froglok crown.
We don't have something like Totemic to swap out our Mith Runed Tunic.
Hell, our Verm Tunic is only AC 15!
-- Sang.