trading with craftsman
Jonah Johansen
money perfecting there skills.
I know they have a hard time turning profit long term.
I know they have to factor in all the money they invested in training
up their skill into their cost of the item, they are auctioning.
That all being said. A profit is a profit.
lets say we are discussing a item with a EQ price tag of 1000pp.
lets say there is only a one chance in 10 of failure
and lets say the ingrediants cost 500 p
I would say the actual cost of making that particular item today is
550. Any thing over that is profit. (profit today)
The money spent on training and learning the skill is spent. Its
gone.
If a player was to offer lets say 700pp for this item the tradesman
should probably take it. He is ahead 150. Sure the long term cost is
greater and if he accepts lot of these 'deals' it may tough to ever
recover his traing costs .
Another thing is 4 deals at 700 is more profitable than one at 1000.
Gregory Gadow
Don't try to teach grampa how to suck eggs, junior. And don't bother
explaining free enterprise to a trade skiller, especially when you
apparently have no comprehension on the reality of free enterprise. If you
think I'm making too much profit, and if you think I should not count the
time, effort and expense it took to reach a given level, then YOU pick up
the skill and make your own damn self.
I set my prices depending on what a given item sells for. That means a
relatively small profit margin on some things and a larger margin on other
things. There are some items (forged weapons, for example) that I simply
don't offer for sale, becase no one will buy them for anything near my
cost to make them (I have thrown in a sword or mace in a large banded
order, however.) Supply and demand, it is called. What business is it of
yours if I feel I make more money in the long run by selling one a week at
1000 than by selling 4 in two months at 700?
What server are you on, and what characters do you play? I want to make
sure you get charged a premium next time you ask me for dyed fine plate or
platinum jewelry or that nice Bristlebane idol (3 DEX, 4 AGI, all/all,
worshippers of Bristlebane only.)
--
Gregory Gadow
Email: tech...@serv.net
"An eye for an eye,
a tooth for a tooth,
a life for a life...
These things lead to a world filled with
blind, toothless corpses."
-Unknown
Crying Freeman
Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message
news:3B3B55C5...@serv.net...
>
> Don't try to teach grampa how to suck eggs, junior. And don't bother
> explaining free enterprise to a trade skiller, especially when you
> apparently have no comprehension on the reality of free enterprise. If you
> think I'm making too much profit, and if you think I should not count the
> time, effort and expense it took to reach a given level, then YOU pick up
> the skill and make your own damn self.
>
> I set my prices depending on what a given item sells for. That means a
> relatively small profit margin on some things and a larger margin on other
> things. There are some items (forged weapons, for example) that I simply
> don't offer for sale, becase no one will buy them for anything near my
> cost to make them (I have thrown in a sword or mace in a large banded
> order, however.) Supply and demand, it is called. What business is it of
> yours if I feel I make more money in the long run by selling one a week at
> 1000 than by selling 4 in two months at 700?
>
<Snipped>
Got to agree with you, I actually do no trade skill that could really make
me money. Any cured silk I make I normally give to newbies as goes with
Reinforced leather (of course I then see them trying to sell if for 1pp per
AC but nm)
I do trade but in the Buying/Selling kind and I never tell anyone what to
sell for, even tho I see some outrageously out of date (high) prices. I
sometimes suggest that they might want to drop their price (ie someone was
selling a Bloodfork for 3k, this guy is like 55th so he knew the game but
probably not the market, so I just informed him that a MoSS sells for 3k so
he might think about dropping his price) but if it's something I want and
their price is to high, all I can do is make an offer.
It seems like Jonah can't get that piece of Velium Jewellery he is after.
CF
If someone rejects your offer don't try to tell them what it is worth,
you'll only look a dick and likely end up on /ignore
Gregory Gadow
> I do trade but in the Buying/Selling kind and I never tell anyone what to
> sell for, even tho I see some outrageously out of date (high) prices.
I, for one, welcome people who suggest, "Your price is a bit high" or (as I have
done in the past), "You know that you can sell that for twice as much?"
> I
> sometimes suggest that they might want to drop their price (ie someone was
> selling a Bloodfork for 3k, this guy is like 55th so he knew the game but
> probably not the market, so I just informed him that a MoSS sells for 3k so
> he might think about dropping his price) but if it's something I want and
> their price is to high, all I can do is make an offer.
And with new items, the market is in great flux. My guild has been working out
what to charge with the new idols (they are fixed, by the way. YAY!) My druid
has an Idol of Karana, +3 WIS, +2 vs Magic. What you YOU pay for such an item?
What is the comparable price for a similar item? Granted, it is limited to
Karana worshippers only, but it's otherwise all/all and will fit in your ranged
slot. I think 300pp is quite favorable, regardless of how much they cost to
make. Same thing with the Rallos Zek idols, which give +5 STR. With stats like
that, my warrior found religion *very* quickly. What would you pay for an extra
5 strength from the ranged slot?
> It seems like Jonah can't get that piece of Velium Jewellery he is after.
I have no doubt, or he wanted a full set of Wu's for cheap, or he could not
understand why tailored backpacks cost so much, or why he had to shell out a
bunch of cash for that imbued Tier'Dal armor or enchanted Antonian long sword.
Bah. At least the newbie who is shouting for free goods is an *honest* beggar.
Jonah Johnson
Please, I am tyring to pose a question, to better understand the game.
And you have given me a good answer. Thank You.
If I had spent the time and effort learning a craft I am sure I
would feel the same way.
Let me ask in another way. t o better understand what you
are saying How is it any different, than me trying to sell this
really great 2HB weapon for weeks and not lowering the price, because
it was so hard to get the weapon and I spent so much time killing mobs
to get it.
Again, I am not telling craftsmen what to sell things for(that
is their right) I am just wondering if holding out for a higher
price is always the best tactic for them or for me trying to sell my
weapon.
Chris Hoeh
> And with new items, the market is in great flux. My guild has been
working out
> what to charge with the new idols (they are fixed, by the way. YAY!) My
druid
> has an Idol of Karana, +3 WIS, +2 vs Magic. What you YOU pay for such an
item?
> What is the comparable price for a similar item? Granted, it is limited
to
> Karana worshippers only, but it's otherwise all/all and will fit in your
ranged
> slot. I think 300pp is quite favorable, regardless of how much they cost
to
> make. Same thing with the Rallos Zek idols, which give +5 STR. With stats
like
> that, my warrior found religion *very* quickly. What would you pay for an
extra
> 5 strength from the ranged slot?
It looks like these new idols will have a market in druids/clerics/shaman,
looks like 3 Wisdom for each of those classes. As with all Religion-imbued
goods, good luck finding Mithaniel Marr clerics willing to pay for the
diamonds ;) Those poor guys got the shaft again.
If the trend continues, 3 Int idols for the 4 pure casters?
Sorry, but I doubt you'll ever sell a Rallos Zek idol. Any warrior paying
good cash for an item with no AC, they better be getting a weapon or a
haste item, not an extra 5 pounds of carrying capacity. Then again, any
warrior you sucker into paying that much for an idol deserves to lose the
plat ;)
Lokari
>I know they have to factor in all the money they invested in training
>up their skill into their cost of the item, they are auctioning.
>That all being said. A profit is a profit.
>The money spent on training and learning the skill is spent. Its
>gone.
By similar reasoning, I just made a profit when I sold my Dodge
Intrepid for $3000. After all, I'd long since paid it off, so the
money I paid for it was spent and gone. Ignore the fact that I paid
eight times that much for it - I had $3000 in my pocket that wasn't
there the day before.
It's not a great analogy to the situation, but it isn't meant to be -
rather, it was intended to illustrate the point that if you look at a
small enough slice of the process, you can easily make a profit
appear.
Yes, if the materials that an enchanter spend on an item cost 500pp
and someone offers him 700pp, he would make a profit for that *very
tiny slice of the process*, but that's not how business works. Not
even the pseudo business of Everquest trade skills.
It is wholly unreasonable to claim that past expenses should have no
bearing on current prices. As a potential customer, you're not just
buying the raw materials that went into the product - you're buying
the knowledge and skill of the person making it, as well.
Consider the computer sitting on your desk - from the perspective of
raw materials, you're maybe looking at ten bucks worth of silicon,
metal and plastic. It's the processes that turn those raw materials
into a useful machine that make it cost so much.
I'd strongly encourage you to become a master at one of the more
marketable trade skills, either smithing, jewelry or tailoring. Or
rather, *try* to become a master at one of them. I think this would
make an excellent educational experience for you.
--
Gregory Gadow
> It looks like these new idols will have a market in druids/clerics/shaman,
> looks like 3 Wisdom for each of those classes.
Heh, see below.
> As with all Religion-imbued
> goods, good luck finding Mithaniel Marr clerics willing to pay for the
> diamonds ;) Those poor guys got the shaft again.
Well, Mithaniel is a pretty pure, pretty tough character, so diamond is
appropriate. I just wish it wasn't such a rare mob only drop. Perhaps there is
a diamond mine on the moon? We will have to see, when Luclin comes out.
> If the trend continues, 3 Int idols for the 4 pure casters?
All of the deities with imbue spells (meaning all except Veeshan, worshiped by
many bards) have idols already. Stats on the idols are
Bertoxxulous: 3 wis, 3 int, 2 vs disease
Brell Serilis: 3 str, 4 sta
Bristlebane: 3 dex, 4 agi
Cazic-Thule: 2 str, 3 int
Erollisi Marr: 3 wis, 3 cha
Innoruuk: 4 int, 3 vs magic
Karana: 3 wis, 2 vs magic
Mithaniel Marr: unknown at this time
Prexus: 3 wis, 2 int
Quellious: 3 wis, 2 int
Rallos Zek: 5 str
Rodcet Nife: 3 wis, 2 sta
Solusek Ro: 4 int, 2 vs fire
Tribunal: 3 wis, 2 str
Tunare: 3 wis, 2 vs disease, 2 vs poison
Any updates will appear at http://www.eqtraders.com/secrets/pottery_idols.htm
as soon as they are known.
> Sorry, but I doubt you'll ever sell a Rallos Zek idol. Any warrior paying
> good cash for an item with no AC, they better be getting a weapon or a
> haste item, not an extra 5 pounds of carrying capacity.
Heh, you don't know about strength, do you?
The higher your strength, the better your ATK rating, which means you are more
reliably doing more damage. My 9th level warrior sees a good difference when he
is wearing his electrum sapphire earring (4 STR, 2 INT) and that difference
will only get better as he levels. Not to mention, the added carrying capacity
means being able to carry both more armor and more loot ('tank' has two
meanings, in a dungeon situation.) ALSO, the idols equip in the ranged slot,
which many warriors seem (sadly) to leave otherwise unused. At the level where
the idols are purchaseable, few warriors are using ranged weapons anyway.
> Then again, any
> warrior you sucker into paying that much for an idol deserves to lose the
> plat ;)
I expect a great many experienced warriors will disagree with you.
Chris Hoeh
-snip-
> Heh, you don't know about strength, do you?
Actually, I've been playing for 23 months now, melee characters for 99.9%
of that time. Strength has a miniscule effect on average damage. It
increases the maximum possible swing a small amount, but it has exactly
zero effect on the modal damage you deal ((2 x weapon damage)+MN). This
subject has been re-hashed over and over, so I won't repeat it here, check
Kailyn's or Copeland's sites for a reminder of how melee works in EQ. The
Shaman's Crucible did a lot of research as well, but I bet the information
is easier to find on the other sites without digging through a message
board.
> The higher your strength, the better your ATK rating, which means you are
more
> reliably doing more damage. My 9th level warrior sees a good difference
when he
> is wearing his electrum sapphire earring (4 STR, 2 INT) and that
difference
You'd be much better off with Cougar Claw, Orc Fang, Ivandyr's Hoop, Tiny
Silver Skull or any other earring with AC. Gold Topaz if you're really
short on cash. The Cougar and Orc earrings even have the strength you
want, and the Orc Fang has bonus hitpoints, win-win.
> will only get better as he levels. Not to mention, the added carrying
capacity
> means being able to carry both more armor and more loot ('tank' has two
Buy a good weight reducing bag with the money instead. If you're looting
FS weapons for example, an Evil Eye bag makes an extra 5 Strength obsolete
after the second weapon.
> meanings, in a dungeon situation.) ALSO, the idols equip in the ranged
slot,
> which many warriors seem (sadly) to leave otherwise unused. At the level
where
> the idols are purchaseable, few warriors are using ranged weapons anyway.
Agreed, but the Kerran toy (3 AC, 2 Agility) would be trivial to get by the
time someone would be willing to spend that much on a 5 Str ranged slot
item. And I doubt there's anyone with an Idol of the Thorned who really
gives a flip about the 7? Strength, people want that 10 AC.
> I expect a great many experienced warriors will disagree with you.
...and the clerics healing those warriors will disagree with you ;)
Gregory Gadow
> Please, I am tyring to pose a question, to better understand the game.
> And you have given me a good answer. Thank You.
I apologize for my short tempered answer. As I read your comments, I saw a
different kind of begging than the standard, but begging nonetheless. It
would not be the first time I misinterpreted.
> If I had spent the time and effort learning a craft I am sure I
> would feel the same way.
>
> Let me ask in another way. t o better understand what you
> are saying How is it any different, than me trying to sell this
> really great 2HB weapon for weeks and not lowering the price, because
> it was so hard to get the weapon and I spent so much time killing mobs
> to get it.
>
> Again, I am not telling craftsmen what to sell things for(that
> is their right) I am just wondering if holding out for a higher
> price is always the best tactic for them or for me trying to sell my
> weapon.
It really comes down to, "Know your market." Find out what people are
willing to pay for something, compare it to what merchants are willing to
pay, and factor in how long it took you to make/aquire. Fine steel
weapons, for example, are ridiculously easy to get; if you keep an ear out
in East Commons, you can find people selling them for 6, 7, 8pp. That is
why I can't sell forged weapons; the stats are identical but they cost me
upwards of 13pp to make. Heh, the only ones I have made were for twinking
out alts.
If you have a really great 2HB that you have been trying to sell for
weeks, you have to consider some other things. Perhaps you are in a zone
where your price is just too high. In Greater Faymart -- er, I mean
Faydark -- there is far too much competition to sell things, so everyone
tries to undercut each others prices. I have seen things there and in East
Commons sold to players for less than they could be sold to a merchant! On
the other hand, if you go to west Antonica to Qeynos and Halas, or to
Erudin, you could probably get a much better price (although there ARE
fewer potential customers.)
Another concern is that your price is simply too high. Ask for a price
check on the item you want to sell; get the opinion of others *in that
same zone, on that same server*. That last part is important: each server
has its own economy, and what might be worth 1000pp on Vaezele or Zerb
might fetch only 400pp on Povar or Tribunal. Don't rely on what sites like
Allakhazam or EQPrices say; rely on the prices given by people who might
be customers within the next 10 minutes.
With tradeskills, there are three things that determine price. First off,
"What is the price for a comparable item?" Small wisdom deities will sell
for between 150pp and 200pp for 2 WIS from the ranged slot. Why? Because
the next available range-slot item (don't recall what it is) costs 3k for,
I think, 4 wis.
Second is, "What is the average price for me to make this item?" That
average price would include the cost of reaching a level where it can be
made reliably, the cost of components for making the item, and ratio of
success vs. failure. It is flat out stupid to spend the thousands of plat
to become a master smith, or tens of thousands of plat to become a
grandmaster jeweler (yes, it DOES take that much cash, believe me!) and
not factor that in to your public selling price. Something that requires
hard to obtain ingredients or exhaustive spells (like the fleeting quiver
with its very rare drop HQ lion skin, the uncommon off of tough mob
griffon feather and a vial of the 39th level, 800 mana to cast with TWO
sapphires as reagents enchanter's distilled mana) is going to be very
expensive because it is a pain in the rear to gather and produce/buy the
ingredients. And if you are succeeding on only every other combine, or
worse (some of the really nice Velious tailoring has NO trivial, even at
tailoring of 250), you are a fool if you don't factor that in.
Third is, "What is the demand for this item?" Wu's armor is not terribly
difficult to make but it is in HIGH demand (at the moment, at least) by
monks. That drives the price up considerably. If I am finding buyers at
850pp for a complete kit, why should I sell it at 650pp? And if no one is
willing to pay more than 700pp, I simply don't have any buyers if I refuse
to go down that low.
Ok, so much for the economics lesson. Now let me clue you in on a little
secret. That wood elf who has been selling small wisdom deities for the
last month in the EC tunnel at 200pp each? She sells 4 or 5 of the a week.
And that barb warrior selling the langseax? He has been selling them
faster than he can pick them up. Many of the regular auctioners know their
markets pretty well :-)
Davian
> Chris Hoeh wrote:
> > Sorry, but I doubt you'll ever sell a Rallos Zek idol. Any warrior paying
> > good cash for an item with no AC, they better be getting a weapon or a
> > haste item, not an extra 5 pounds of carrying capacity.
>
> Heh, you don't know about strength, do you?
>
> The higher your strength, the better your ATK rating, which means you are
more
> reliably doing more damage. My 9th level warrior sees a good difference when
he
> is wearing his electrum sapphire earring (4 STR, 2 INT) and that difference
> will only get better as he levels. Not to mention, the added carrying
capacity
> means being able to carry both more armor and more loot ('tank' has two
> meanings, in a dungeon situation.) ALSO, the idols equip in the ranged slot,
> which many warriors seem (sadly) to leave otherwise unused. At the level
where
> the idols are purchaseable, few warriors are using ranged weapons anyway.
>
Actually, it looks like he knows more about strength than you.
Yes, more strength will increase damage, however, it takes an obscene amount
of extra strength to get a miniscule increase in your average damage.
Whereas for a tank class, a small increase in armor class can have a noticable
impact in your damage taken.
> > Then again, any
> > warrior you sucker into paying that much for an idol deserves to lose the
> > plat ;)
>
> I expect a great many experienced warriors will disagree with you.
As well as all the monks wearing dual serpentine bracers, and black pearl
chokers. ;)
Well, for the couple minutes before they're staring at "Loading, please
wait...." in big red letters. ;)
georg
>
> I'd strongly encourage you to become a master at one of the more
> marketable trade skills, either smithing, jewelry or tailoring. Or
> rather, *try* to become a master at one of them. I think this would
> make an excellent educational experience for you.
/applaud and agree with Gregory & Lokari
-Tiru
master potter
master baker
master smith - hoping to do the cultural thang.
mack...@home.com
wrote:
Not to get too technical, but in any competitive market, things sell
for their marginal cost. Sunk costs have no bearing on pricing. That
is to say, in EQ terms, the cost of training a skill to a given level
has no bearing on the price an item should sell for. The item will
sell for the marginal cost of making the item (i.e.; the "very tiny
slice of the process", or 550 plat). In mathmatical terms P=MC, or
price equals marginal cost. This is all with the caveat that the
relevant market is a truly competitive. In the real word, and in EQ,
there is no such thing as as theroetically perfect competitive market,
which is how businesses can make profits. (No business can make a
profit, aside from the relevant profit expectation of the market as a
whole, which is not worth considering now, in a competitive market).
To sum up, it is not, in fact, wholly unreasonably to expect past
expenses to have no bearing on current prices, but in fact it is a
sign of a competitive market. To quote Buckaroo Bonzai, "No matter
where you go, there you are."
Sorry for the econ lesson. Didn't mean to lecture.
hughes
> are saying How is it any different, than me trying to sell this
> really great 2HB weapon for weeks and not lowering the price, because
> it was so hard to get the weapon and I spent so much time killing mobs
> to get it.
>
> Again, I am not telling craftsmen what to sell things for(that
> is their right) I am just wondering if holding out for a higher
> price is always the best tactic for them or for me trying to sell my
> weapon.
Yes it is . If you are not willing to pay the price I named I will not sell
to you . My prices are set by the following function . cost = true price of
materials( i dont include training costs but i probably should ) + estimated
price of time (500pp an hour at hgs ) + annoyance factor at having to deal
with you personally (0 to infinity ).
Lokari
>Not to get too technical, but in any competitive market, things sell
>for their marginal cost. Sunk costs have no bearing on pricing. That
>is to say, in EQ terms, the cost of training a skill to a given level
>has no bearing on the price an item should sell for.
For mass produced items, this is certainly true. If you're going to
make a million of something on an assembly line, you're able to
produce them quite cheaply. By producing so many of them, the
manufacturer can reasonably expect to make back the cost of R&D.
The concept of economies of scale doesn't apply in EQ, though. This is
much more a situation like that of a skilled craftsman making custom
items, one at a time. If you buy a piece of hand-crafted custom made
furniture, I doubt you seriously expect to pay no more than the cost
of a few planks of lumber for it!
--
spam@theusualsuspects.net daFoo' Snafoo
i charge whatever the market will bear
been known to give extra pieces of banded in deals
been known to laugh at people and tell them to go away
right now, got a full set of large plate, dyed red on all showing pieces,
asking 3000pp as a min, too much?
then don't buy it, my ogre sk is happy wearing it :)
when it finally does sell, think i will make him a green set
--
daFoo Snafoo - 40th Shaman
Questmaster - Soldiers of Fortune
Xegony
"hughes" <hugh...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:70S_6.2344$ck5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
mack...@home.com
wrote:
I think you misunderstant. The marginal cost of the hand-crafted
custom furniture includes the cost of the wages that the craftsman
makes. It includes more than the cost of the materials, but _all_
costs that go into making that _one additional_ piece of furnitiure
(including materials, wages, wear and tear on their equipment, etc.,
but noticably not overhead and training in the skill necessary to make
the furniture - those expenditures have already been made and cannot
be recovered - on a going forward basis, they are irrelevant to the
pricing). In other words, the marginal cost is the cost to the
company (or craftsman, or whoever is making the thing in question) of
producing _one additional_ thing. Think of it this way, a company
makes furniture. The company has made 100 pieces already. What price
is the company willing to sell the next piece at? They are willing to
sell at a price equal to the cost of making that next piece. It is
irrelevant to the company whether they have made 100, 1,000, 1 or
none. They will price, in a competitive market, where P=MC.
Going back to the EQ example, markets there are generally not
competitive. Why? because, in most cases, P>MC. I.e.; people can
make a profit and recover their initial start up (training) costs. It
makes sense, actually. There just aren't that many buyers an sellers
of a given item. In fact, often, there are no buyers or sellers for a
particular item (and the barriers to entry > 0, for all you econ
junkies). This leads to non-competitive markets where P>MC.
Gregory Gadow
So what can be used by a warrior in the ranged slot to give AC? I ask because the
idols can be equipped there.
Chris Hoeh
> Ok, ok. Believe it or not, I CAN learn stuff :-P
>
> So what can be used by a warrior in the ranged slot to give AC? I ask
because the
> idols can be equipped there.
Off the top of my head:
Kerran toy (3 AC, 2 agility - easy quest for mid 20's)
Medicine Totem (5 AC, 5 Wis - drops in Frontier Mtns)
Idol of the Thorned (10 AC, 7 Str - drops in Droga)
There's several 1 and 2 AC items now coming out of new low-level and
revamped zones (Warrens for example), and lots of new items in Velious,
several of the higher-end bows have up to 10 AC. The third? step of the
Coldain prayer shawl gives a nice All/allranged item (3 AC, 3 Wis, 3 Int,
and some other saves/stats)
Marc Fuller
>
[snip]
>
> If a player was to offer lets say 700pp for this item the tradesman
> should probably take it. He is ahead 150. Sure the long term cost is
> greater and if he accepts lot of these 'deals' it may tough to ever
> recover his traing costs .
>
> Another thing is 4 deals at 700 is more profitable than one at 1000.
You're forgetting just one little thing: the law of supply and demand.
Jewlery is a fairly difficult skill, and is hideously expensive to learn.
(Especially for non-enchanters, since they have to sell all their
non-magical practice junk back at a loss.) Therefore, there aren't a lot
of highly skilled enchanters running around. Therefore, the ones that
*are* making high end items (Vellium and Platinum, rare gems and such) can
pretty much charge *WHATEVER THEY WANT.* If you don't like paying 1,500 pp
for an earring that costs 300pp in materials, feel free to spend the 4000pp
on materials to get your Jewelry skill to the point where you can make your
own. And good luck talking an Enchanter into enchanting the metal for you.
Marc Fuller
Marc Fuller
Yep. And in the real world, there is still a market for hand-make
furniture, make by skilled craftsman out of real wood. (as opposed to that
compresed sawdust-and-veneer crap you buy at WalMart.) I seem to remember
reading that hand-made furniture is a major source of revenue for the Amish
clans in the U.S, but I'll be darned if I can remember where I saw it.
Marc Fuller
Marc Fuller
The difference is that if it is a looted weapon, you have very little time
invested in it. And anyone else who kills that monster can get one.
However, if the monster if very rare, or the weapon only drops rarely, the
price will be higher. And if the item has nice stats, that will also
increase the price. And the number of them available, or the ease with
which high level characters can get them also affect the price. So, Runed
Totem staves are fairly worthless, because the market is flooded with
them. On the other hand, Slime Crystal staves are still fairly pricy,
because King Xorbb is fairly uncommon, and because not many people bother
to hunt in the Gorge. Thus, if you wanted a Slime Crystal Staff, you
should expect to pay a lot for it, or go get it yourself. If you find
someone who is selling it cheap, then be quiet and pay promptly.
With Tradeskills, especially at skill levels greater than 200, the player
may have literally *days* invested in clicking the Combine button, and
possibly thousands and thousands of PP spent on materials and failures.
Since there is very little competition at the highest level of skill,
Grandmasters can charge whatever the market will bear. (And since each
character can only get to 250 in one tradeskill, there might only be a few
characters on a given server that are at that skill level in that
particular skill. I've talked to more than a few Enchanters that are a bit
pissed that all the other tradeskills are suddenly useful and valuable,
since they'd already Grandmastered in Jewlery. On the other hand,
Enchanters are still the only ones that can cast a lot of the spells
needed, so they don't exactly get left out of the loop, profit-wise.)
Marc Fuller
StanMann
And the Wages cover the marginal cost of gaining skill. As a skilled
software developer I'm worth from $50-200(US) an hour. That covers the
costs of getting me skilled.
StanMann
--
OK, I have tremendous admiration for someone who goes to the trouble of
learning American English when it isn't their native tongue, but there
is
precious little that is funnier than someone cursing in English when
they
aren't completely fluent in it. It's made even funnier when they're
apopleptic with rage, as Arnaud here is.--Brandon Blackmoor
Don Sly
And that's why the entrepreneurs laugh at the economists and their theories.
Supply and demand. If no profit it in the investment then no supply.
Theory is such a lovely concept. Maybe schools should start teaching
"Reality Macro/Micro Econ 101".
For EQ there are many tradesman that could care less about profit and fund
skills for friends and guild. There are lots of EQ traders that measure fun
in how much plat is growing as well.
Bottom line if you don't like the prices take up the trade yourself or wait
and look for a deal.
<mack...@home.com> wrote in message news:3b3bde05.16256975@news...
Ben wilson
<tech...@serv.net> writes
>> Sorry, but I doubt you'll ever sell a Rallos Zek idol. Any warrior paying
>> good cash for an item with no AC, they better be getting a weapon or a
>> haste item, not an extra 5 pounds of carrying capacity.
>
>Heh, you don't know about strength, do you?
>
>The higher your strength, the better your ATK rating,
True
>which means you are more
>reliably doing more damage.
True - however the difference is so imperceptibly small, it's negligable
>My 9th level warrior sees a good difference when he
>is wearing his electrum sapphire earring (4 STR, 2 INT)
This is a placebo effect. You are damage capped until L20, besides
which, 8 extra strength will not make any noticeable difference (except
to remove the penalty of being under 75str if it takes you over)
> and that difference
>will only get better as he levels.
I'm L60. I'm routinely at 255 strength. Strength has a very very very
small effect other than raising the maximum you can hit for and a tiny
(1 or 2) difference in the damage bonus. There is a theory that the
relationship between your ATK and the mob's AC (and visa-versa) has an
effcet, but again, this is only relative, and not global as you suggest
> Not to mention, the added carrying capacity
>means being able to carry both more armor and more loot ('tank' has two
>meanings, in a dungeon situation.)
Agreed, but you shouldn't compromise your tanking ability to carry more
loot.
> ALSO, the idols equip in the ranged slot,
>which many warriors seem (sadly) to leave otherwise unused.
If they are pulling, a bow is much more useful. I don't know what lower
level options there are for range items, nor the price of idols, but I
agree you should have SOMETHING there.
>At the level where
>the idols are purchaseable, few warriors are using ranged weapons anyway.
Kerran toy? I also found a nice ac2 hp3 and other stats range slot item
going through ToFS the other day. I'm sure there are more out there
>
>> Then again, any
>> warrior you sucker into paying that much for an idol deserves to lose the
>> plat ;)
>
>I expect a great many experienced warriors will disagree with you.
Look at my .sig
--
Demorgoth Demonia
Ogre Warlord
Souls of the Sha...
erm... Nights Wa... Dark Horizon!
E'ci erm... ZubZub server!
Ben wilson
Chris Hoeh <ch...@earthlink.net> writes
>Agreed, but the Kerran toy (3 AC, 2 Agility) would be trivial to get by the
>time someone would be willing to spend that much on a 5 Str ranged slot
>item. And I doubt there's anyone with an Idol of the Thorned who really
>gives a flip about the 7? Strength, people want that 10 AC.
...and the 10 stam. 1 stam = 6 hps and it's a linear progression unlike
other stats. 66hps is damn nice
Lokari
>I think you misunderstant. The marginal cost of the hand-crafted
>custom furniture includes the cost of the wages that the craftsman
>makes. It includes more than the cost of the materials, but _all_
>costs that go into making that _one additional_ piece of furnitiure
>(including materials, wages, wear and tear on their equipment, etc.,
>but noticably not overhead and training in the skill necessary to make
>the furniture - those expenditures have already been made and cannot
>be recovered - on a going forward basis, they are irrelevant to the
>pricing).
Sorry, no. Even if it's only pennies per piece, the R&D budgets and
the design budgets and the advertising budgets all come from
*somewhere*, and that somewhere is the price that gets charged for
each produced item.
And in the larger-run operations that you're alluding to, the *wages*
is exactly what we're talking about, regarding the craftsman being
paid in accordance with his skills.
>In other words, the marginal cost is the cost to the
>company (or craftsman, or whoever is making the thing in question) of
>producing _one additional_ thing. Think of it this way, a company
>makes furniture. The company has made 100 pieces already. What price
>is the company willing to sell the next piece at? They are willing to
>sell at a price equal to the cost of making that next piece. It is
>irrelevant to the company whether they have made 100, 1,000, 1 or
>none.
And now you're mis-understanding me. I'm not talking about a company
that makes 100 or 1000 pieces of furniture - those kinds of numbers
don't apply to the example.
I'm talking about single, truly custom, items, made by a craftsman
skilled enough to be called an artist. This is a far better analogy to
the EQ tradeskill master than a factory pumping out assembly line
items is.
This craftsman isn't trying to recover the entire cost of his training
with each piece he makes, but the cost of the items does indeed
reflect his *skill level*. I'm not willing to pay a premium to someone
just because they own a planer and a router, but rather because
they're an expert and I expect to pay for their expertise and the
quality of the product they produce.
>Going back to the EQ example, markets there are generally not
>competitive. Why? because, in most cases, P>MC. I.e.; people can
>make a profit and recover their initial start up (training) costs.
For most people who engage in most EQ trade skills, I'd say that's
absolutely *not* true.
--
georg
>
> mack...@home.com wrote:
>
> >Going back to the EQ example, markets there are generally not
> >competitive. Why? because, in most cases, P>MC. I.e.; people can
> >make a profit and recover their initial start up (training) costs.
>
> For most people who engage in most EQ trade skills, I'd say that's
> absolutely *not* true.
How to simulate what it is like to become a master at any tradeskill in
EQ. Let's use real money so it hurts more. Get $1000 out of the bank.
Make sure it's all in ones. Put a stack of ones on the back of the
toilet. Peel one off the stack and toss in the toilet bowl. Now
carefully flush the toilet. Repeat, until you run out of money.
Occassionally, the toilet may back up and give you some of your money
back. This means you had a paying customer for that portion of the
proceeds. Once that money dries off, flush it down again, one dollar at
a time.
While you can make money on tradeskills by selling the occassional
piece, not every piece is going to be sold to another player. And even
if you never poof, you cannot sell finished products to a merchant for
enough to cover the costs, except perhaps for baking and fishing.
-Tiru