Why Abashi doesnt 'get it' on Warrior vs. Necro pets.
Kevin
>Philbo <ec...@oobik.com> wrote:
>
>> A pet is a pet, its a few bone chips and some mana, and it does
>> very close damage to a full warrior who has spent nearly 50 days playing
>> to get his character to level 50, got all the loot, and then meets up with
>
>so that level 50 necro didn't do anything like that to get to the level he's
>at so he could *cast* that pet?
>
>/cough
>
>--
>josh
I have 2 characters that I play primarily - a rogue and a cleric.
My Rgue: Level 22 dark elf - Glowing Iron Pike / SBD (won't proc yet)
All equips magical except small banded boots.
My Cleric: Level 19 dark elf - CIMS - SBS - BS Tunic - SSB - Full
Bronze (small sized) - Full set of spells.
My Rogue: Fighting *green* Dry Bone Skeleton - survives with 40% hp
remaining.
My Cleric: Fighting *even* Dry Bone Skleton - survives *undamaged*
and down 70% mana. (root - expulse - repeat)
The problem here is not the pets - its the spells. In General, spells
ALWAYS outdamage melee fighters. I would expect a pet to outdamage a
warrior because the pet is the result of a spell.
Maximum backstab at level 22 with maxed skills and a 9 damage
weapon: 83
Unresisted Expulse Undead - level 14 spell: 74 points + Level (at
level 19 - 93dd)
You may want to argue that in this example the cleric has an advantage
since the npc is undead. Though this is true - Smite - level 14
spell: 60 points + Level (at level 19 - 79dd) almost outdamages the
backstab of a rogue 3 levels higher (8 levels higher than the level of
the spell) The only way my rogue could do more damage is to gain a
level - or get a bone razor (10 damage - PoH) or an Eyerazzia (10
damage - PoH) or a Trident of the Seven Seas (13 damage - Kedge Keep).
When my cleric goes up to level 24 - he can buy damage spell from a
vendor in his guild for a measly handful of plat that tops a rogues
best damage output with weapons that beat anything short of planar
equips. So - can anybody tell me how this is considered "balanced?"
Dorian Brytestar
Simple, What will the cleric do when he is out of mana?
What if there are two creatures?
Balanced does mean equal, while the rog is going to be much better at taking damage
and dealing it out over time (my friend the 50 rog called his class the neverending
DoT) Yep, there are things that one class will always be better off doing than
others, but everyone has their jobs to do.
--
Dorian Brytestar
Lvl 50 High Elf Cleric of Tunare
Povar
Mark Rafn
>I have 2 characters that I play primarily - a rogue and a cleric.
>My Rogue: Fighting *green* Dry Bone Skeleton - survives with 40% hp
>remaining.
>My Cleric: Fighting *even* Dry Bone Skleton - survives *undamaged*
>and down 70% mana. (root - expulse - repeat)
>The problem here is not the pets - its the spells. In General, spells
>ALWAYS outdamage melee fighters. I would expect a pet to outdamage a
>warrior because the pet is the result of a spell.
>You may want to argue that in this example the cleric has an advantage
>since the npc is undead.
I'd argue that the cleric has an advantage soloing against single MoBs. In
a group, the rogue and cleric serve different roles, and each have a place.
If you want to solo, choose a caster (preferably druid, mage, or necro).
If you like to play in a group, EVERY class can be a valuable addition to
most groups. It's silly to claim that because a class can't solo as well,
it's not as good as another class at all things.
>spell: 60 points + Level (at level 19 - 79dd) almost outdamages the
>backstab of a rogue 3 levels higher (8 levels higher than the level of
>the spell)
The rogue can backstab a dozen times in a long fight. How many times can
you cast Smite?
>So - can anybody tell me how this is considered "balanced?"
I can. It's balanced because each can contribute to a group. I've been in
groups where I'd rather have a rogue than a cleric added to it. I've been
in groups where I'd rather have the cleric. I've been in a LOT of groups
where we'd happily take either or both if the players aren't jerks.
If you've got someone who taunts, a rogue can do amazing damage with NO MANA
COST. This makes for very fast combats with little downtime between. A
cleric can do some damage, but then he's not healing and you're always
waiting for him to meditate.
--
Mark Rafn da...@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/> !G
Leif Smart
> damage - PoH) or a Trident of the Seven Seas (13 damage - Kedge Keep).
> When my cleric goes up to level 24 - he can buy damage spell from a
Trident of the seven seas is dmg 10 delay 30 Effect : froststrike
you may be thinking of the crystaline spear, dmg 13 delay 30
andrew davies
Kevin <devio...@citynet.net> wrote in message
news:38fc8356...@spamnews.citynet.net...
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:45:13 GMT, abatt...@netscape.net wrote:
> >Philbo <ec...@oobik.com> wrote:
> >
> >> A pet is a pet, its a few bone chips and some mana, and it does
> >> very close damage to a full warrior who has spent nearly 50 days
playing
> >> to get his character to level 50, got all the loot, and then meets up
with
> >
> >so that level 50 necro didn't do anything like that to get to the level
he's
> >at so he could *cast* that pet?
> >
> >/cough
> >
> >--
> >josh
>
>
> All equips magical except small banded boots.
> My Cleric: Level 19 dark elf - CIMS - SBS - BS Tunic - SSB - Full
> Bronze (small sized) - Full set of spells.
>
> remaining.
> My Cleric: Fighting *even* Dry Bone Skleton - survives *undamaged*
> and down 70% mana. (root - expulse - repeat)
>
> The problem here is not the pets - its the spells. In General, spells
> ALWAYS outdamage melee fighters. I would expect a pet to outdamage a
> warrior because the pet is the result of a spell.
Replying to orig. thread (sorry, hehe). Necro pets Vs Warrior. What context
would this be in ? I'd imagine on of the following:-
Duel: A level 34 Warrior would take on a pet from a level 34 Necro. Pet
would be between 25th (doing 25dmg a hit, dual wielding if equipped, kicking
for about 8 or so) and 29th (hitting for 33 a pop, 11 or so kick, faster
attacks).
What would constitute a "fair fight?" Probably fought as would be
appropriate to the way they would normally fight, pet 2 weaps and single
necro buff spell (because of mainly soloing) Vs War with Resolution, STR,
AGI, DEX and STA buffs, Quickness/Alacrity, Regen/Chloro and Dmg Shield
because they mainly fight in groups. Then who would win ? Damn close if ya
ask me 8)
Fighting side by side in group: Ummmm, how good are pets at pulling a mob
nowadays ? Mine seems really bad, /pet pull just does not work.
Level playing field, Necro Vs War: Would depend on rules, turn up and fight
as you are, wherein the War had better have full buffs on, because he just
stepped outta a fight with his close, personal friends Mr. CLE, Mr SHA and
Mr. DRU <g>. The necro would have buffed pet with 2 weaps, Personal shield
and dmg prevention shielding up. The War goes straight after the necro and
it would be a dmg race between the Pet on the War, and the War on the necro,
ya try and cast spells whilst being hit, plus the War will prob have pumice
to break any DoTs ? Again this one would be pretty close, maybe the necro
could get 2 spells of to turn it, responses ??
Alternatively have both naked, no pet, no armour, no weapons, no spells
memmed. Oof, even a half decent war would kick the crap outta the necro,
mostly done with damage from kicks hehehe.(VERY unlikely, but would teach
the casters a thing or two <G>).
Finally, the main whine WAR have, and IMHO the reason they complain about
necro pets: Soloing:-
A fully equipped 50th necro, 200 INT, plus mana gear, J-Boots etc. can take
an even mob, sometimes they don't need all the equip because they are the
most efficient mana to dmg class there is, HP=>Mana, Mana=>HP spells mean
they can be damaging and fearing a mob for longer than most classes, druids
are the closest to them. They can then also be ready very quickly, for the
next time the mob spawns, just heal pet and regen mana slightly.
A fully equipped, all planes gear, 50th WAR, would have problems in getting
XP solo, then maybe only a low blue mob. The resulting downtime could be
anything upto 40 mins, if you bind back to half and naturally regen 750 odd
HPs.
Is this the reason for the WAR complaints ? Or am I just being stupid
because I think that everyone wants to be able to solo their favourite class
to 50 ?
I love my Necro, but I also find myself playing my shaman and warrior to be
in a group. I do like the fact that as a necro I can solo to 50, but I find
myself greatly missing the feeling of being in a good group with my friends
and enjoying the game, rather than reverse kiting a mob, doing exactly the
same thing, repeating over and over.
Kevin
>Trident of the seven seas is dmg 10 delay 30 Effect : froststrike
>
>you may be thinking of the crystaline spear, dmg 13 delay 30
>
dragon for the spear.
-Kevin
Mr Foo Bar
andrew davies <amd...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:Ez8L4.1283$bf6.1...@news3.cableinet.net...
> Level playing field, Necro Vs War: Would depend on rules, turn up and
fight
> as you are, wherein the War had better have full buffs on, because he just
> stepped outta a fight with his close, personal friends Mr. CLE, Mr SHA and
> Mr. DRU <g>. The necro would have buffed pet with 2 weaps, Personal shield
> and dmg prevention shielding up. The War goes straight after the necro and
> it would be a dmg race between the Pet on the War, and the War on the
necro,
> ya try and cast spells whilst being hit, plus the War will prob have
pumice
> to break any DoTs ? Again this one would be pretty close, maybe the necro
> could get 2 spells of to turn it, responses ??
Uhm. The necro would absolutely slaughter the warrior, even without a pet.
It goes like this:
Shadow Step.
Pumice away all War's buffs. Or even use cancel magic.
DoT
(Warrior pumices)
memm low level DoT
Low mana DoT
(warrior pumices - isnt going to check level of DoT is he ?)
repeat until all pumice has gone.
Warrior dies.
(Shadow Step/Invis/Med as necessary.)
There are other variations on this that also work, this is just one. For
example, using a pet (whether or not you started with one).
Shadow Step.
Summon Pet.
Buff Pet.
Set Pet on Warrior.
Med.
Pet might die (unlikely but possible)
Repeat.
> Alternatively have both naked, no pet, no armour, no weapons, no spells
> memmed. Oof, even a half decent war would kick the crap outta the necro,
> mostly done with damage from kicks hehehe.(VERY unlikely, but would teach
> the casters a thing or two <G>).
A naked war versus a naked necro is not even funny. The warrior is just
dead.
You must be assuming a genuionely stupid necromancer if you think he would
fight toe-to-toe.
>
> Finally, the main whine WAR have, and IMHO the reason they complain about
> necro pets: Soloing:-
> A fully equipped 50th necro, 200 INT, plus mana gear, J-Boots etc. can
take
> an even mob, sometimes they don't need all the equip because they are the
> most efficient mana to dmg class there is, HP=>Mana, Mana=>HP spells mean
> they can be damaging and fearing a mob for longer than most classes,
druids
> are the closest to them. They can then also be ready very quickly, for the
> next time the mob spawns, just heal pet and regen mana slightly.
That's the way necros are designed, want to play solo play a necro or druid.
> A fully equipped, all planes gear, 50th WAR, would have problems in
getting
> XP solo, then maybe only a low blue mob. The resulting downtime could be
> anything upto 40 mins, if you bind back to half and naturally regen 750
odd
> HPs.
>
> Is this the reason for the WAR complaints ?
> Or am I just being stupid
Well given your War versus Necro scenarios above, yes I think so 8)
> because I think that everyone wants to be able to solo their favourite
class
> to 50 ?
The reason people complain is because they seem to think in PvP terms (just
like you have). IMO Warriors are better than necros because they are far
more useful in a group than a necro. War for me is a must have along with a
cleric and a 'chanter. Necro's are a nice to have.
> I love my Necro, but I also find myself playing my shaman and warrior to
be
> in a group. I do like the fact that as a necro I can solo to 50, but I
find
> myself greatly missing the feeling of being in a good group with my
friends
> and enjoying the game, rather than reverse kiting a mob, doing exactly the
> same thing, repeating over and over.
*Nod* that's exactly why I chose to play an enchanter. Best group member
(and the price I pay is it's trickier to solo and not as interesting).
dre
Pretty common drop off scarelings there.
That being said, I've never seen a bone razor.
>The only way my rogue could do more damage is to gain a
JackiePrice
Phinegal in Kedge.) its 10/30 and procs a 149 point cold based DD.
Go with any kedge group that has plans on taking out Phin, and has done it
before successfully. There is rarely a rogue around and it's no drop, so if
you are the only rogue its yours. Great if the planes are still out of your
reach.
"dre" <to...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39077964...@news.se.mediaone.net...