Meelee VS Casting - The Rest of the Story
Zanthor
sure a few of you have a thing or two to say about it (Last I looked, a
few had said things about it;)
Anyhow here is another compairison for you to pick at.
************************
Definitions:
Meelee: To engage in physical combat not utilizing spells.
Caster: To engage in combat utilizing magic as your primary source of
damage.
Hybrid: A combination of the Above styles.
************************
In Everquest there are basically two types of fighting, The up close
and personal (Meelee), and the Dont come near me you bastard!
(Casting). The primary differences between these two types of combat
are interesting to say the least, and the power is far from balanced
between them as levels progress.
For purpose of analysis we will utilize SOLO play.
First - The Beginer Course 101 Series (Levels 1-30)
***
Meelee 101:
In meelee combat you have several options to select from. Initially
you choose 1 or 2 handed weapons, you choose from dual wielding if you
can, and weather or not you get to bash, slam, kick, flying kick, etc.
At this point, you move in to combat, hit the auto attack button, and
mash a few other keys repeatedly til you a> Win, or b> loose and die.
***
Casting 101:
In magical combat you have many options to choose. Generally the
desirable choice would be to avoid direct meelee because you SUCK at
it. You can accomplish this by Root/Burn tactics or Slow/Flee tactics.
Depending on your class you have different spells available, but you
can most often take down a monster without any real meelee interaction.
In the event you run OOM or LOM you can either - Root and med, or Leave
the area (Zone, Gate, etc) and start over. Very rarely does this sort
of activity lead to your untimely death.
***
Hybrids 101:
The Hybrid has similar options to the Meelee and a few of the optoins
of the Casters. Their ability to do some additional damage thru magic
allows them to space the "Life/Death" aspect of knowing when your going
to win or loose. They also have special abilities that allow them to
stop the mob from chasing them when it is time for them to get the
phuck out of dodge.
The Hybrid will die less often and win more fights than a pure meelee.
***
Evaluation of the 101's:
The primary difference here is the end result if you loose the fight.
As a caster you KNOW your not going to win the fight if you run out of
mana, at this point you have near your full health to assist you in
making it to zone, so your most likely going to live, if you planned
ahead you saved enough mana to gate as well which makes that even
easier.
With a Meelee class however you have spent your health in the fight,
you realize that with a close fight that turns bad at the end (Like a
casters last 3 spells being resisted) that you are now below 10% of
your health and are going to die. There is no reprieve, just death and
a corpse recovery.
Once again, the Hybrid is a cross between, they will be lower on life
than a caster but will have the advantage of their spells to assist in
their combat.
******
And now the Intermediat Course (Level 31-40)
Meelee 201:
During these levels, you really start to come to "Power". Your skills
are approaching their peak, and generally your getting the last of your
new abilites somewhere in this area. The monsters you fight are still
harder, and they hit harder and more often.
The basic approach is the same, Engage combat, mash buttons, and either
A> Win or B> Flee. At this point however you are no longer able to
engage equal level monsters, to do so is certain death due to the
damage they inflict vs the amount of health you have. You must fight
monsters several levels below you to accomplish a victory. And still,
you wont know the result of the fight til the very end, at which point
you will normally die if your going to loose - no running away here.
Casting 201:
Your approach in high level casting is nearly identical to Casting 101.
You root and burn or slow and burn. Either way, the only thing that
has changed is the penalty for screwing up and getting closer to the
mob than desirable. They hit harder, stun more and messing up will
cost you your life unless you get lucky.
The end results are still determined by if you can do more damage than
the mob has life with your mana. If so - you win, if not - you flee to
zone or gate out. This is still relativly LOW risk especially
compaired to an equal level meelee player.
Hybrid 201:
With the growing of levels the Hybrid classes gain new spells with
better damage. They can utilize these to speed the combat, Their
damage spells allow them to shorten the amount of time they are in
battle, their healing allows them to patch up some damage mid fight,
and root/snare/darkness allows them to flee easier if things get ugly.
The shadow knight has an amazingly effective tactic of Darkness/Fear
which I call Reverse Kiting. This allows them to follow a slowly
fleeing mob and destroy it with it's back turned.
***
Intermediat Evaluations:
The clear winner here is the Caster, with no real risk of death unless
they screw up, they will be able to handle most monsters in their
"Non-tombstone" range.
Coming in a close second is the Hybrids, with their mix of casting and
meelee they are effective and able to overcome most mobs from the
higher blues and down (I doubt a white though, and rarely if ever a
yellow).
Finally you have the pure meelee classes, Limited to pure meelee these
classes can only overcome the lowest of the blue cons and green. This
marks the end of the era that a Meelee class can actually get
experience solo.
******
Advanced Combat (Level 41 to 50):
Caster 301:
With the gaining of new more powerful spells at each tier, the casters
gain power until level 49. They are able to solo mobs that range up to
about 45th level if they have a way to stay away from them. This does
become more difficult due to the higher monsters being inside zones but
some (such as Sergeant Slate in east commonlands) are still viable for
them to attack and kill. The same tactics as before will do, damage
from range, dont get too close or it will be fatal.
Meelee 301:
As a meelee class progresses beyond level 41 they gain no more skills,
no more abilities, they are ALREADY the best they can be. The ONLY
difference is their equipment which will come with time, or if they
have a good guild, is already the best it can be outside the Plane of
Hate/Fear or Dragon Loot. Some say that Meelee gain power with each
level because of their HP bonus. However another 30 HP against
monsters that hit for 90's is meaningless. This seems to effect the
Warrior more than the Monk (I can't speak of Rogues because I dont
have a lot of knowledge about their solo ability).
Hybrid 301:
Things get tougher here, but Hybrids still gain spells to 49th hence,
power gain until their final level. This allows them to continue using
tactics that worked for them in earlier levels to overcome some mobs
while not all.
***
Advanced Evaluations:
The caster and hybrid still have some viability to overcome monsters
that give some experience, however risky it can be done.
The pure Meelee drop in effectiveness against monsters that give
experience as they gain levels beyond 41, because as the mobs that give
get harder to kill, the pure meelee classes do not get stronger, and
hence will be unable to kill them.
************
Conclusion:
It appears to me that while the classes are near balanced, there is
still some fine tuning to be done, primarily in the pure meelee (and
the warrior suffers most from this).
The point that appears to be lacking is the defence value of a Meelee
player and the fact that it doesn't go up as he gains levels. This
means he will take more and more damage as he progresses to fight
harder monsters, but doesn't deal anymore out.
If you have any other ideas about this, comments or questoins, please
feel free to post them, I'll check back regularly to read them =)
Zanthor Paro'Cimmerii
Warrior of the 46th Training
The Rathe
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EMarr
<zanthor...@tibbs.net.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>Conclusion:
>It appears to me that while the classes are near balanced, there is
>still some fine tuning to be done, primarily in the pure meelee (and
>the warrior suffers most from this).
>
>The point that appears to be lacking is the defence value of a Meelee
>player and the fact that it doesn't go up as he gains levels. This
>means he will take more and more damage as he progresses to fight
>harder monsters, but doesn't deal anymore out.
>
to. Why is that? its almost as if they forgot to finish the warrior
class?!!
Today i have posted an email to Brad asking about allowing warriors to
be able to bind wounds to a higher level or, if not, then at least
allow a similar replacement to the rubi BP for its regen effect.
The one thing that stinks the most on warriors is the huge downtime
which cannot be compared to medding downtime. Also, in groups we are a
mana drain for heals and thus end up increasing a groups overall
downtime or if there are no healers then everyone has to wait just as
long for you to get those HP back. No wonder warriors aren`t wanted as
much in the higher levels...they are a liability.
Anyway, i will post a reply here to my email if i get one.
Well done on the above post, but im now feeling more depressed...heh
:P
--
28th season half elf warrior
Erollisi Marr server
--
Lars
Next time you might want to preface a work that large with its intended
purpose.
I got about 1/2 way to the bottom, ready to reply about some areas in your
post with which I disagreed, then thought...who cares.
Lars
David Gaines
>
>Intermediat Evaluations:
>The clear winner here is the Caster, with no real risk of death unless
>they screw up, they will be able to handle most monsters in their
>"Non-tombstone" range.
>
I'd never dream of attacking a white or yellow with my caster. Unless you
have the JBoots or SoW or Snare, this is way too dangerous. Equal level or
higher monsters resist/break root much too easily. Low blues only for me.
>
>Conclusion:
>
>The point that appears to be lacking is the defence value of a Meelee
>player and the fact that it doesn't go up as he gains levels. This
>means he will take more and more damage as he progresses to fight
>harder monsters, but doesn't deal anymore out.
>
There are only 3 "pure melee" classes. The monk can always feign until
mend comes back, then run away safely. This leaves the warrior/rogue who is
the only one that has no chance of escaping, and in my opinion, of the of
drawbacks of soloing with these is lack of escape ability. There are trade
offs, advantages and disadvantages to every class. The "melee group" has 2
classes that cannot escape. Not a real problem. Just some warriors wanting
something that their class wasn't designed to have. Aka, my wizard doesn't
have a pet.
Razzan
Level 40 Wizard
E'ci
Random User
The game was designed to be group play. Your group should save your ass
when you are about to die.
Hybrids can solo better than Melee? I agree.
Casters can solo better than Hybrids? depends on the class. I bet a warrior
can solo better than an enchanter.
Group up. You'll get better XP becuase you're down time will be less.
Angel
David Gaines <daveg...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3831...@news.iglou.com...
> >The clear winner here is the Caster, with no real risk of death unless
> >they screw up, they will be able to handle most monsters in their
> >"Non-tombstone" range.
> >
>
> have the JBoots or SoW or Snare, this is way too dangerous. Equal level
or
> higher monsters resist/break root much too easily. Low blues only for me.
>
from low blues.
> >
> >Conclusion:
> >
> >The point that appears to be lacking is the defence value of a Meelee
> >player and the fact that it doesn't go up as he gains levels. This
> >means he will take more and more damage as he progresses to fight
> >harder monsters, but doesn't deal anymore out.
> >
Hurk
enchanter cannot out due anything.
Crowd control is the single most powerful spell class there is. Without root,
there is no burn. Without snare/sow there is no escape. Any method of
"controlling" the mobs behavior is what allows the magi classes to fight them
solo. An enchanter is the Best at crowd control. They have every type,
including those not owned by the rest of the classes.
Random User wrote:
--
Hurk 30th Cleric Tunare
In theory,
there is no diffrence,
between theory and practice.
In practice,
there is.
Zanthor
for double 110's, in fact I saw this JUST last night while passing
thru East Commons.... snuck up behind me he did.)
I do group, but the problem is groups are for ITEMS and Dungeoning, at
these levels anything thats remotely interesting is 3 groups of 40+.
Really I know LGuk better than my own friggin house, I know Sol B Dog
area just as well. That leaves, Bug/Bat area and Giants... or going
to Kedge/PoH/PoF and those are NOT XP Adventures.
Play a tank to 45th and you'll grok what I'm saying.
Zanthor
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:00:58 -0500, "Random User"
<rando...@hotmail.com> wrote:
><snip>
>
>The game was designed to be group play. Your group should save your ass
>when you are about to die.
>
>Hybrids can solo better than Melee? I agree.
>Casters can solo better than Hybrids? depends on the class. I bet a warrior
>can solo better than an enchanter.
>
>Group up. You'll get better XP becuase you're down time will be less.
>
>
>
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Zanthor
target audience.
Really it's all about class balance for solo viability. A few tweaks
to the pure meelee stats (IE: Warrior AC effectiveness) would balance
that better and not only ENHANCE Group play but make the Warrior a
viable class at high levels.
Zanthor
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
blue
> It appears to me that while the classes are near balanced, there is
> still some fine tuning to be done, primarily in the pure meelee (and
> the warrior suffers most from this).
>
> The point that appears to be lacking is the defence value of a Meelee
> player and the fact that it doesn't go up as he gains levels. This
> means he will take more and more damage as he progresses to fight
> harder monsters, but doesn't deal anymore out.
>
Your solo analysis is absolutely true; however, you forgot to do a GROUP
analysis. You'll find that the 'solo' caster classes suffer in group
situations. Ask any high level wizards/druids, their effectivness is severly
lacking in group situations. In fact, they are down right useless (except for
evac/gate/sow/regen) at high level events (planes, dragons, gods). So the solo
nuker classes may enjoy level 1 -> 50, they'll find that they will hit a glass
ceiling after a certain point. They will never be able to do Ghoul lords,
frenzied, kings, fgs, etc... by themselves. Not even a full group of casters
can do them. You will need TANKS, TANKS, and more TANKS for those situations.
Perhaps the only caster class that can solo well and perform well within groups
are the Necromancers, simply because of their pets. That is why Verants has
been nerfing Necro pets, rightly they should.
I think, all classes are nearly balanced, except for the Godly Necro Pets of
Tank Destruction. Oh, mistwalker pets were also Godly too. Image a pet that
double hits for 117+ all the time. Nothing can beat that. Imo, necro pets
should be nerfed more. :) (unless I am a necro, of course)
Morgan
>
> In article <3831EFC1...@here.there.com>,
> blue <ora...@here.there.com> wrote:
> >They will never be able to do Ghoul lords,
> >frenzied, kings, fgs, etc... by themselves. Not even a full group of casters
> >can do them. You will need TANKS, TANKS, and more TANKS for those situations.
>
> and tell me enchanters aren't effective in a group. Same for necromancers
> and mages.
>
> I don't buy it. They don't need tanks except for a few specific
> circumstances. To be honest, I have my doubts about those, too.
It's possible for an Enchanter to break a huge spawn. It's also
possible to die horribly trying. Essentially, you're playing
resistance bingo. If you get too many resists on that first cast,
you die very quickly.
--
Morgan
Xymarra, High Elf Enchanter on E'Ci
Richard Kuo
<zanthor...@tibbs.net.invalid> wrote:
>************************
>Definitions:
>
>Meelee: To engage in physical combat not utilizing spells.
>
>Caster: To engage in combat utilizing magic as your primary source of
>damage.
>
>Hybrid: A combination of the Above styles.
>************************
I know this is a bit nitpicky and might be bad form, but in
the future when you post this could you spell melee correctly?
Thanks. =)
============================================
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Morgan
>
> In article <3831F6EE...@misleading.com>,
> Morgan <mor...@misleading.com> wrote:
> >It's possible for an Enchanter to break a huge spawn. It's also
> >possible to die horribly trying. Essentially, you're playing
> >resistance bingo. If you get too many resists on that first cast,
> >you die very quickly.
>
> casters can do it, and they don't need tanks. Two enchanters would
> do just fine, as would an enchanter and a necro. Or three. Just
> don't need tanks.
My favorite way to break a big spawn of blues is to take a tank, cast
Feedback (a damage shield) on him, tell him to run into the middle to
get them all mad at him, then center a Mesmerization on him. Repeat
as needed until they all fall asleep. Then we fight the monsters one
at a time, retreating to heal if necessary. The damage from the
Feedback keeps the monsters mad at him instead of me, so I am free to
cast. Don't try this with whites and up. Too many will resist and
they chew up the tank too fast.
If we need more firepower, I charm one of them, but that is very
unreliable and dangerous. A pet gone wild can easily prevent me from
casting for the duration of a Mesmerization (24 seconds), allowing the
whole horde to wake up and kill us all. That's if it doesn't just
kill me outright.
Doing the same thing without a tank, or even using a necro pet as the
tank, is not nearly as effective. Breaking any spawn or winning any
fight is much easier and much safer with a tank in the group. At
some point the monster is going to break Root or Enthrall and beat on
someone. It's much better if that someone has real defenses and hit
points.
The big limitation of the Enchanter, compared to other casters, is
that we are really really bad at hurting things. I get one line of
DoTs and one line of DDs. I can cast the DD spell about once per 15
seconds. It is completely resistible and not terribly mana efficient.
I can burn approximately one blue mob to the ground on a full supply
of mana over the course of a minute if I get lucky with resists and
manage to keep it rooted.
Brian Cully
blue <ora...@here.there.com> wrote:
>They will never be able to do Ghoul lords,
>frenzied, kings, fgs, etc... by themselves. Not even a full group of casters
>can do them. You will need TANKS, TANKS, and more TANKS for those situations.
Funny, I know an enchanter who can break the lord room SOLO. And try
and tell me enchanters aren't effective in a group. Same for necromancers
and mages.
I don't buy it. They don't need tanks except for a few specific
circumstances. To be honest, I have my doubts about those, too.
Archi Tuttle
Monk at Large
Innoruuk
Brian Cully
Morgan <mor...@misleading.com> wrote:
>It's possible for an Enchanter to break a huge spawn. It's also
>possible to die horribly trying. Essentially, you're playing
>resistance bingo. If you get too many resists on that first cast,
>you die very quickly.
Obviously it's easier with more people. My point is that solo
casters can do it, and they don't need tanks. Two enchanters would
do just fine, as would an enchanter and a necro. Or three. Just
don't need tanks.
Archi Tuttle
Monk at Large
Innoruuk
Alasdair Allan
> <snip>
>
> The game was designed to be group play. Your group should save your ass
> when you are about to die.
>
> Hybrids can solo better than Melee? I agree.
> Casters can solo better than Hybrids? depends on the class. I bet a
warrior
> can solo better than an enchanter.
Tell me you jest!
Enchanter has *real* power. In a lot of combats the Enchanter is far
superior to Necro or Shaman. His only problem is he needs to burn a lot
whereas the Necro/Shaman can use pet resource.
But then the Enchanter has Clarity...
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
Alasdair Allan
> An enchanter of level 45 can solo Sergeant Slake (41st level mob, hits
> for double 110's, in fact I saw this JUST last night while passing
> thru East Commons.... snuck up behind me he did.)
>
> I do group, but the problem is groups are for ITEMS and Dungeoning, at
> these levels anything thats remotely interesting is 3 groups of 40+.
> Really I know LGuk better than my own friggin house, I know Sol B Dog
> area just as well. That leaves, Bug/Bat area and Giants... or going
> to Kedge/PoH/PoF and those are NOT XP Adventures.
Kedge is *fantastic* experience. When I've been there I've been really
close to a bubble an hour at 50 just exploring - thats better than I get
soloing Ice Giants or with a *really* good group fighting bugs in Sol B.
Sam Schlansky
<01bf30e9$14a60100$c70201c0@dell40>:
>Random User <rando...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> <snip>
>>
>> The game was designed to be group play. Your group should save
>> your ass when you are about to die.
>>
>> Hybrids can solo better than Melee? I agree.
>> Casters can solo better than Hybrids? depends on the class. I
>> bet a warrior can solo better than an enchanter.
>
>Tell me you jest!
>
>Enchanter has *real* power. In a lot of combats the Enchanter is
>far superior to Necro or Shaman.
Well, in most combats yes. Soloing, not usually.
>His only problem is he needs to
>burn a lot whereas the Necro/Shaman can use pet resource.
>
>But then the Enchanter has Clarity...
Erm... 49 enchanter animation with SLTW, frequent berserker strength
buffs, and two FS daggers = kick ass.
Sam
--
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Alasdair Allan
> postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk (Alasdair Allan) wrote
> >His only problem is he needs to
> >burn a lot whereas the Necro/Shaman can use pet resource.
> >
> >But then the Enchanter has Clarity...
>
> Erm... 49 enchanter animation with SLTW, frequent berserker strength
> buffs, and two FS daggers = kick ass.
Err, you mean my Enchanter can use the weapons trick?
D'oh!
Oh, and Kick Ass!
Sam Schlansky
>Sam Schlansky <s...@deletethis.operation3d.com> wrote
>> postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk (Alasdair Allan) wrote
>> >His only problem is he needs to
>> >burn a lot whereas the Necro/Shaman can use pet resource.
>> >
>> >But then the Enchanter has Clarity...
>>
>> Erm... 49 enchanter animation with SLTW, frequent berserker
>> strength buffs, and two FS daggers = kick ass.
>
>Err, you mean my Enchanter can use the weapons trick?
>
>D'oh!
>
>Oh, and Kick Ass!
You betcha!
Enchanter pets, much like shaman pets, are MUCH weaker than
mage/necro pets... enchanter pets are REALLY weak, actually.
However, with the buffs your shaman/enchanter can give them, they
compare quite well. The enchanter pet is to the shaman pet as the
shaman pet is to the necro pet in power-- but the enchanter buffs are
far superior. And yes, enchanter pets can take two FS daggers.
You can't give them commands though, which can make some nice trains
in dungeons. But for soloing, they work great.
Sanamayanu
BEST you can come up with is that he spelled melee incorrectly? Come down
from your high horse.
Richard Kuo <rk...@seas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3851e802.3548011040@news.beta.giganews.com...
> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:01:20 -0800, Zanthor
> <zanthor...@tibbs.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> >************************
> >Definitions:
> >
> >Meelee: To engage in physical combat not utilizing spells.
> >
> >Caster: To engage in combat utilizing magic as your primary source of
> >damage.
> >
> >Hybrid: A combination of the Above styles.
> >************************
>
mida...@my-deja.com
s...@deletethis.operation3d.com (Sam Schlansky) wrote:
> postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk (Alasdair Allan) wrote in
>> Enchanter has *real* power. In a lot of combats the Enchanter
>> is far superior to Necro or Shaman.
> Well, in most combats yes. Soloing, not usually.
>> His only problem is he needs to
>> burn a lot whereas the Necro/Shaman can use pet resource.
>> But then the Enchanter has Clarity...
> Erm... 49 enchanter animation with SLTW, frequent berserker
> strength buffs, and two FS daggers = kick ass.
>
Have you ever seen a high level enchanter pet kiting? They always pull
exactly ONE mob, and never have problems keeping the MoB focused on them
instead of the pet.
Its sort of a myth that enchanters can't solo. They aren't druids or
necromancers, but they are no worse off than any other caster class.
It's just much harder to learn how to use the enchanter spell line to
best effect. Most of the enchanters I see are played like a weak
magician with a couple different parlor tricks.
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