Rogue redisgning....LONG and Controversial
Stewart Corbett
there eye over it?
Original post follows-------additions are denoted (* *)
I have noticed recently (on alt.games.everquest) that the rogues are once
again grumbling and making noises. There are the usual whiners who complain
constantly that the class is broken whilst in the same sentence saying, I
played my character to lvl 40. I tend to ignore these posts, but recently
there have been some intelligent and well reasoned requests to alter the
rogue class.
It is from these multitude of posts that I have 'borrowed' ideas and
opinions to try and outline how I see our class. There are many small voices
arguing for this and that, but I feel if we can agree on an outline for
Rogues, and each post an email to feedback, maybe they will take notice.
Ok, so first thing first, what is our role in a group? Well, I think
this is Verants major problem, they have created a solo class and tried to
incorporate it into a group dynamic game. Yes, I understand in paper and
pencil RPG the rogue is valid in a group, but EQ game dynamics does not
allow for the class. So we are presented with a problem, either we alter the
game (expansion?) or alter the class.
What are we? We are not tanks, we are not casters....All that is left is
utility. We should be able to offer the group something that is needed other
that in the fighting arena. I am not suggesting nerfing our melee/range
skills but rather to concentrate elsewhere. Rogues are not required in a
group fight, its as simple as that. Mages are with teleport, DD and DOTs.
Clerics/Shamans are with Heals, SoW and buffs. Warriors are needed to keep
MOBS from casters, this we all know. So where does this leave rogues?
Utility.
But this is where it gets tricky, because if rogues never existed, the
game would not suffer at all. Therefore it is difficult to add anything in
the game that REQUIRES a rogue to be present. I certainly think its unfair
to demand a rogue to be in a group, RPG is about doing what you want, not
what the game tells you. So this has to be behind everything that is
suggested to Verant otherwise it falls dead at the door.
Now we can get to redesigning the class. Everyone is in agreement that
rogues do not wish to emulate other classes, we do not want to be tanks nor
caster. A list of skills and abilties for Rogues are listed below, making
them useful but not essential for a group.
Abilities to enchance group worthiness:
Combat changes - BIG CHANGES HERE --- BE WARNED!
I think backstab should be overhauled. I would prefer to see an outright
kill possible with the skill. Now hold on! Let me explain. Being able to
backstab repeatedly for greater damage doesn't make sense. I would much
rather see the skill as descibed:- If the mob is at 30-40% health or below
then outright death is a possibilty. Otherwise it just does the normal
damage multiplier. The skill can be used when the MOB is facing us, (the
Rogue uses his dexterity to nip behind creature and stab), but only once per
MOB, let there be a regen time for the skill of about 1min to prevent
multiple uses. Backstab should automatically put us up on number 1 slot for
creature Hate list permanently. This is because I have more ideas for the
skill below, read on before howling at me. So if we are soloing, then we can
finish low health creatures, or just carry on as normal.
Introduce a DoT ability for Rogues. Now this idea along with backstab
helps
us solo. With a succesful sneak behind the creature we can attempt to
strangle the monster. Whilst we are engaged in this the creature and rogue
cannot move. The MOB loses health over time and we lose stamina to maintain
hold. With whatever checks EQ makes, maybe sta/str vs MOB lvl the DoT
continues. Possible outcomes are for High reds 5% dam, to low greens death
by strangulation! Now for blues I reckon we should be able to do 25% dam
before hold is broken with maybe 40% stamina loss. Yellows I dont believe
rogues should be able to take on, certainly not full health yellows. We
simply don't have the tanking abiity to do it. Now I know already I have
serious difficulty taking on a yellow so I think nothing changes.
Now, I have to say that I've only played rogues to lvl10. I know that
makes
me a newbie but listen if you will. This idea may not work in EQ, but listen
to my argument. Toe to Toe fight for rogues are usually terminal for us. We
use surprise and agility to kill our prey. This is how I would like to see
our combats run.
Solo first. Full Health MOB. Sneak on MOB and strangle, reduce health to
75%, melee down to 30% health, then use backstab to go for outright kill.
Now, on lower health MOBS, we can strangle and finsh maybe without melee.
Group combat. Let tank beat up on MOB, we add our little damage from
either
thrown weapons or melee. When the creature is low on health we can attempt
to move round behind creature and finsh MOB off with backstab. If this
works, group happy and more loot. If it fails, MOB pissed and attempts to
remove our limbs for a laugh.
Now, its a major change I agree. Even though its not perfect (hey, I'm
not
that arrogant) I believe its in the right direction. For these changes to
take place I believe the Double attack should be dropped. Dual wield yes, we
are dextrous enough for holding two weapons but I say again we're not tanks.
These are combat changes I would make for the class because I believe thats
where Rogues abilities lie. I realise this causes major headaches for
established rogues as they would fundamentally have a new class to learn
again. Well, I think its for the better of the class to wipe the slate clean
and start again.
OTHER CHANGES
Our consider skill should be expanded. A rogue is a master at
observation,
picking up little things to build a better picture about his target. As the
skill increases, we should be able to observe if the MOB has any buffs,
poisons active, prospective loot. As we are already told when someone casts
a Buff, such and such feels stronger/quicker/agile, it is not unreasonable
for Rogues to notice this. Loot, we can estimate how much loot is on a MOB.
Now I have no idea whether this information is available at spawn time or is
randomly decided when the creature dies, but to be able to estimate what is
carrying is also within the remit of the class.
A disguise skill should be available to Rogues. I envision this as
similar
to the Enchanters Illusion spell with the folowing differences.
Sizes. Only similar sized races can disguise themselves. This would lead
to two groups, Group 1 would be DE, HalfE, HighE, WoodE, Human, Erudite,
Barb. Group 2 would be Dwarf, Halfling and Gnome. The disguise would be worn
on the Back slot of the inventory allowing people to examine us and see
through the dsguise. The Disguise skill would start at level 8, with one
race available then and at every four levels thereafter. I think we should
also be given an Average/Below Average skill in the race's own language. The
availabilty may be different for each race? WIth DE only being given Human
since other elves have such a distrust? Whatever the fine points of the
ability, I believe Disguise is a worthwhile skill. I play on the Rallos Zek
server as a DE and would love to be able to take up Fletching, but the
components cannot be bought in Neriak, we have to go to Kelethin or Jagged
Pine. Noone likes us there and I am KOS. This means I cannot take up
Fletching, however if I had a disguise I could take the risk of being
discovered and maybe learn Fletching.
Looting, in as far as looting kills go, I would like to see a bonus,
perhaps
+10/15% to the cash given out and maybe a +10% chance added to items being
dropped. This would allow for rogues to be added to groups to loot corpses
and gain more cash for the group.
I have noticed that creatures do not always attack when they are
scowling? I
can only assume there is some creature AI involved. I have seen Young
Kodiaks (it conned yellow... yes my new rogue is Lvl 7) walk literally a few
feet away straight past me and not attack? What prompted it to do it I do
not know, but it led me to think that Rogues tend to try and make themselves
look inconspicous, keep to shadows and not draw attention. Would it be
possible to give them a bonus on whatever check is being made to see if the
creature attacks? Do not reduce the faction with the creatures (like druids
and Rangers with Bears and the like) but give us an edge over our clumsy
warrior friends.
We are Masters of Stealth, lets remove this idiotic abillity of Lvl4
Wizards
being able to see us with See Invis. On the blue servers it isn't a problem,
but on Rallos Zek when your low on health, hiding and a lvl 4 wizard comes
along and pks you when your lvl7 is a right royal pain.
Also, as we are always observant, it would be good to be able to 'see'
invisible people. We can hear them moving about, there spell does not stop
sound. I would like to see a skill like sense undead for the necros. When
its clicked, we are facing the nearest invisible person and given a range to
them.
I have thought long and hard about the Hide skill. Like the way if you
attack a MOB and someone roots it. You run half a zone and Hide, it runs
straight to you. This is a problem. How can we fix this? I have heard
mention of the Mem Blur spell of Enchanters where they are placed at the
bottom of the Hate list for creatures, could this be incorporated into Hide?
I think any attempt at this is open to abuse. Imagine strangling a creature,
backstabing it then hiding till backstab becomes available again? I would
like to see Rogues being able to run out of Line of Sight of a MOB and hide.
The creature wanders away till it sees you again then attacks, but I cannot
see how this can be implented with giving Rogues the ability of never dying.
When low on health, hide, med up, then attack....repeat hey presto,
invulnerablity. I think we must bite the bullet on this one.
(*Sneak, I would like to see rogues speed increase to beyond MOB walking
pace, to follow a MOB whilst sneaking and see it pulling away from
me!..frustration.*)
The new criticals for throwing weapons for Rogues is good to see. I
think in
a group it means we can avoid tanking and throw weapons to the MOB. Now, the
only problem lies in that throwing weapons do such pitifully low damage.
With a knife it does 5dam, and only 5dam. I do not think this was really
given to Rogues as a new ability rather as balance because Rangers got the
same with Bows. But anything added is not to be discouraged.
I have heard people asking for more rogue specific weapons, I don't
believe
thats the way to go. Rogues generally use a dagger, thats all. Maybe a magic
dagger but nothing outlandish. If you want superb weapons with big damage
then become a Tank. (*I'm not suggesting nerfing Bloodclaws or Bone Dirks,
this
was in reference to adding Bolas or other such Rogue only weapons*)
Allow for the dropping of chests as loot. Level to open would be lvl of
creature*5. Therefor level 10 creatures require at least lvl 10 rogue. I
would love to see shouts for "Rogue required to open chest, send tells". We
can open chests through the TRADE window, that allows us to get cash and
open chest without looting.
Banking skill. I believe this would just make rogues useful to everyone.
Allow rogues to change coins to different denominations through the Trade
window. Although it can't be justified in a game sense, it adds fun to the
class without imbalancing the game.
I have never gotten to the stage of Making and Applying Poison, though
by
reading posts I believe it needs to be altered to make it more cost
effective? Are rogues supposed to be the only money draining class in the
game? Seems upside down to me.
Give rogues the abilty to inspect someone without them knowing it, make
it
work like the pickpocket skill as to when they notice it. (* (Mainly for RP,
but also
for sneaky people on PvP servers...they get touchy on RZ if you inspect
without
asking) *)
There are many changes I've suggested in here. None of them I feel
severly
imbalance the game much apart from the backstab ability to kill outright. I
can see this creating difficulty PvP but on a blue server I feel with
careful programming and playtesting it can be done.
Now I will rap this up, all you at the back can wake up, and you there,
yes
you at the front that has slowly been turning red and venting steam, you can
speak now.
Umbrella up, flak jacket on.....Fire away.
Stewart A Corbett
Struan RZ DE
BlueAcid98
those of us that get in the thick of it with our Rogue, we need this skill.
Other than that, nice post!
James M. O'Hara
First of all if backstab is gonna have a long delay we should be able to
raise our skill in it every couple times it's used (I'm lvl 16 and my
backstab skill is 52, it's really really hard to raise even now). I
like the choking idea, but the str/sta check will not work because the
majority of rogues dont have a lot of str or stamina. But repeatedly
you say in your post we are not tanks- well, we're not, in some senses.
We don't take damage, we deal it, like a monk. I think the way backstab
works is fine now, and I dont think we should lose double attack. But
even with all these ideas, Verant is not going to completely redo the
class. Possibly in EQ 2 :)
Stewart Corbett wrote:
>
> This is taken from my post on the Onelist rogue list. Anyone care to cast
> there eye over it?
>
> Original post follows-------additions are denoted (* *)
>
> I have noticed recently (on alt.games.everquest) that the rogues are once
> again grumbling and making noises. There are the usual whiners who complain
> constantly that the class is broken whilst in the same sentence saying, I
> played my character to lvl 40. I tend to ignore these posts, but recently
> there have been some intelligent and well reasoned requests to alter the
> rogue class.
--
Talbain
Wood Elf Rogue on Povar
Asterisk
one thing though... backstab could allow a rogue to steal kills easily, lets
say 3 people were attacking a mob. They each do 20% damage. (mob is down to
30%) then the rogue comes along and backstabs it and kills it. rogue gets
the exp! this could easily be fixed though, by having the rogue not be able
to backstab to kill mob he or his group didn't deal at least 20% damage to
(and still have the requirement of the mob having less than 40% health or
something.)
-Asterisk
James M. O'Hara
--
asdf fasdf
<james...@home.com> wrote:
>What would 3 people be doing attacking the mob in the first place?
Grouping?
Who cares if rogues gain the ability to kill steal. Seems like *some*
melee class ought to have the ability to uber-lame others, since
plenty of caster classes already can.
Some nice ideas in the original post. I have always played a thief on
merc/rom muds, but found my everquest rogue to be sort of boring and
unappealing to my "powergamer" side (that's what they call somebody
who likes to level, right?). My main character now is a wizard, but if
some of your ideas were implemented, I'm sure I'd be inclined to dust
off that rogue.
Twilight
about the only change i like to see implemennted to the rogue as it is
, is the ability to backstab with BOTH your weapons rather than just
the primary hand.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war , a world without hate . And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. " -Jack Handey
James M. O'Hara
Twilight wrote:
>
> <big snip>
>
> about the only change i like to see implemennted to the rogue as it is
> , is the ability to backstab with BOTH your weapons rather than just
> the primary hand.
>
> "I can picture in my mind a world without war , a world without hate . And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. " -Jack Handey