Unnanounced changes have to stop.
CWizard
etc... you guys MAJORLY gimped us over by removing the guise from the drop
tables and adding a new item in its place.
Why didn't you put that in your list of changes, afraid of the huge
backlash? Well guess what, it's coming anyways. There's going to be 100
more posts at least besides me from some guy that just found out his guise
is no longer obtainable and his dog is pregnant and his car got broken into
and he's gonna be pissed. He's gonna threaten to cancell his account, etc.
etc. etc.
People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
Bakara Bandylegs
Veeshan
BTW: I have a mask, and my gimp is a bard.. luckily, I have no room to
bitch.. just telling you what's going to happen.
Shrike
>
> People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
> dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
A /petition should take quick care of that...
--
Hanrahan Thornhide, Druid in Fennin Ro, Griffin Snack.
Rhialto, Enchanter in Fennin Ro, Young Kodiak Lunch.
"Remember, you reap what you SoW"
Morgan
>
> Even with all these new commitments of keeping patch updates accurate,
> etc... you guys MAJORLY gimped us over by removing the guise from the drop
> tables and adding a new item in its place.
>
> Why didn't you put that in your list of changes, afraid of the huge
> backlash? Well guess what, it's coming anyways. There's going to be 100
> more posts at least besides me from some guy that just found out his guise
> is no longer obtainable and his dog is pregnant and his car got broken into
> and he's gonna be pissed. He's gonna threaten to cancell his account, etc.
> etc. etc.
IMHO, changes to monster stats, item drops, and quest details don't
belong in the patch message unless they are part of a serious and
important change to the world.
There is always some hot item of the month that everyone feels they
can't live without. People said that about journeyman boots and rubicite,
but somehow life continues even though those are both out of the game.
Be glad they didn't retroactively change existing masks. I still think
that any equippable item should only be able to be used when it is equipped.
> People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
> dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
Those people will be petitioned and banned if they actually try that.
Harassing the rest of the game population is not a good way to protest
a minor change to the game.
> Bakara Bandylegs
> Veeshan
>
> BTW: I have a mask, and my gimp is a bard.. luckily, I have no room to
> bitch.. just telling you what's going to happen.
--
Morgan
Anar
: People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
: dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
Agree!! A Troll sit-in in GUK and SOL~~~
It is too STUPID for them to remove it!!!
: BTW: I have a mask, and my gimp is a bard.. luckily, I have no room to
: bitch.. just telling you what's going to happen.
BTW: I have a mask too and I am a Human cleric.
Anar Lv50 Cleric
Bristlebane
Nibiru
maybe they drop someplace else.. ever think of that?
On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:34:58 -0600, "CWizard" <cwi...@nol.net> wrote:
>Even with all these new commitments of keeping patch updates accurate,
>etc... you guys MAJORLY gimped us over by removing the guise from the drop
>tables and adding a new item in its place.
>
>Why didn't you put that in your list of changes, afraid of the huge
>backlash? Well guess what, it's coming anyways. There's going to be 100
>more posts at least besides me from some guy that just found out his guise
>is no longer obtainable and his dog is pregnant and his car got broken into
>and he's gonna be pissed. He's gonna threaten to cancell his account, etc.
>etc. etc.
>
>People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
>dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
>
>Bakara Bandylegs
>Veeshan
>
>BTW: I have a mask, and my gimp is a bard.. luckily, I have no room to
>bitch.. just telling you what's going to happen.
>
Nibiru, 17th level Enchanter
Mithanial Marr
Bad Tailoring
Good Baking
Average Blacksmithing
Very Bad Jewelry Making
Average Brewing
Master Pottery
Good Fishing
** Sig created by EQ Sig Creator version 0.5 **
dstep
wrote:
>CWizard wrote:
>>
>> People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
>> dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
>
>A /petition should take quick care of that...
AHHHHHHAA
yeah, in 3 hours when they are gone.
AHAHHHA
AHHAHHAHA
A PETITION!
AHAHAHAHAHAH!
Yeah and I bet you walk outside and
see marmalade sunsets.
D
SirTifiable
Gordon Wrinn wrote in message ...
-snip
>
>You've hit it right on the head, and that's why we generally don't announce
>them. EQ is about exploration and adventure. We make a lot of changes to
>things in the world on a daily basis, and to go telling everyone about them
>would leave nothing for people to discover on their own
-snip
There is a vast difference between announcing every thing, and giving the
players necessary warnings about changes that will directly effect their game
play. Quite frankly, what ever criteria Verant uses to decide what it does let
the players know about changes leaves allot to be desired. The two undocumented
changes (yes I know they were eventuly documented) that come most quickly to
mind are the feign death nerf and the guard enhancements. If one wanted to be
very cynical, one can even say this information was intentionally withheld with
the intention of getting players killed.
>> Be glad they didn't retroactively change existing masks. I still think
>> that any equippable item should only be able to be used when it is
>equipped.
>
>We try to avoid doing this whenever possible. We learned that a while back
>when trying to change some existing armor to "warrior only". Of course that
>is not to say that this never happens (e.g. Treant Fists)
>
-snip
Two very different situations, iirc the Treant Fists were a exploitable mistake
and there was no other way to correct it. However with the Lustrous Russet
armor, if I remember the story; what happened is Verant changed it to warrior
only with no warning whatsoever, people removed their armor only to find they
couldn't put it back on; and since this was in the days when no drop meant no
bank they were in real trouble. If instead Verant had announced that a mistake
was made and either changed all of the Lustrous Russet on non warriors to the
appropriate planes armor for that class; or had GM's collect and exchange the
Lustrous Russet for the appropriate planes armor, there would have probably
still been complaints, but far less then there were (imvho) and at least Verant
would have been shown trying to make a effort to be fair.
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Gordon Wrinn
>Internet Relations Manager
>Verant Interactive, Inc.
>www.verant.com - www.everquest.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------
Internet Relations Manager eh? Nice suitably vague title, I hope they don't
"enhance" it any time soon.
Good luck and good hunting.
SirTifiable
"of all the things I lost, I miss my mind the most"
Sam Schlansky
<s4ueve2...@news.supernews.com>:
>> IMHO, changes to monster stats, item drops, and quest details
>> don't belong in the patch message unless they are part of a
>> serious and important change to the world.
>
>You've hit it right on the head, and that's why we generally don't
>announce them. EQ is about exploration and adventure. We make a
>lot of changes to things in the world on a daily basis, and to go
>telling everyone about them would leave nothing for people to
>discover on their own. Most items we add or removed around
>noticed within minutes or hours as it is, and there's not really a
>whole lot of sense in announcing it for the people who would
>*like* to figure it out on their own, when so many resources exist
>for those who don't.
You're missing the point. You're correct in that the removal of a
popular item like the guise will be noticed within an hour-- however,
people will be PISSED.
Not only should it have been mentioned in the patch message, but
there should have been a clear explanation of *why* the guise was
removed. Something like:
- The Guise of the Deceiver has been changed. If you already have one
it will remain the same, but all new drops will be bard/rogue-usable
only. This item was removed since it trivializes a unique ability of
the Tier'dal (ultravision) and also gives free faction to every race.
The code to make items race/class specific had only recently been
added, or the guise would have worked in this matter from the very
beginning.
I was under the impression that patch messages like the above were a
major part of your job. Instead, we got a message marginally better
than what we're used to.
Incidentally, saying that "there's not really a whole lot of sense in
announcing it for the people who would *like* to figure it out on
their own" is, frankly, ridiculously stupid.
Nobody in Everquest figures things out on their own. Everybody reads
websites or talks to their guild... that's how information is
disseminated. You've kept the "wonder of discovery" for one poor
group who camped the assassin this morning and discovered that the
mask had been nerfed-- NOT for the community at large.
Please don't insult our intelligence by saying things like "for the
people who would like to figure it out on their own".
>This is not to say that we can't improve the amount of information
>released in the patch messages, we certainly can, and we will.
That's one of the reasons you're there, if I'm not mistaken. I
expected this patch message to be a virtuoso performance, equalling
or bettering the one from asheron's call that I posted a week or two
back. Guess not, eh?
>But things that we feel should be discovered by the players, or
>things that change so regularly that we couldn't announce them
>without opening a spoiler site typically won't be announced.
There's a difference between "Queen Gherkin in Paw now drops a Spear
of KickingAss" and "The guise of the deceiver which 99% of the
population over level 30 has is being nerfed". The first is a
spoiler, the second is not. Surely you can see the difference.
Sam
>> Be glad they didn't retroactively change existing masks. I
>> still think that any equippable item should only be able to be
>> used when it is equipped.
>
>We try to avoid doing this whenever possible. We learned that a
>while back when trying to change some existing armor to "warrior
>only". Of course that is not to say that this never happens (e.g.
>Treant Fists)
Yes, the treant fists were certainly an impressive testament to the
quality of testing at Verant! Unlimited complete heals, hooray!
Sam
--
/| Sam Schlansky <sam[at]operation3d[dot]com>
/| I speak for myself only unless noted otherwise.
/| PGP Key ID: 0x63A9D707
/| 3DNews.net: News With Perspective!
/| 3DHardware.net: Taking Your Machine To The Third Dimension!
/| Remove "deletethis" to email.
Kerzon
the removal of the manastones is what drove me nuts. Even now when i see
people useing the stone, it just makes me want to cry. And still, to see
other clases (necromancer) get a quest item that does the same thing
manastones did just does not seem fair.
Jeremy Music
That was a pretty ridiculous statement. :)
player: /petition There's an ogre blocking the entrance to this dungeon.
gm: /tell ogre You need to move out of the way.
ogre: /reply Ogre wantz ta muv Ogre cant muv Ogre tu big
J
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wyld Knight - wyld.qx.net 3333
http://wyld.qx.net/~rezo
re...@lords.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Lokari
>Even with all these new commitments of keeping patch updates accurate,
>etc... you guys MAJORLY gimped us over by removing the guise from the drop
>tables and adding a new item in its place.
Does the word "dynamic" ring a bell to you? In case it doesn't, it
means that things are going to change. If you want a static world,
then you shouldn't be playing EQ.
>Why didn't you put that in your list of changes
Why should they? *I* certainly don't want to know about everything in
advance, and that includes changes in NPCs and loot tables. Again, the
world is dynamic, and these things *should* change. Probably more
often than they do.
>People are even talking now about making ogre's and sitting them in front of
>dungeon exits just to prove what a hideously stupid move this was.
The only thing it would prove is that the people blocking the dungeons
are hideously stupid. Do it when I'm trying to get in or out of that
dungeon, and I'll petition you. You want to get even with Verant
because you don't like something they do, don't take it out on your
fellow players. Idiot.
Lokari
>You're missing the point. You're correct in that the removal of a
>popular item like the guise will be noticed within an hour-- however,
>people will be PISSED.
They'll be pissed regardless of it being in the patch message or not.
And the reason they'll be pissed is because their expectations are
based on the fact that they keep forgetting the world is dynamic, and
that things *are* going to change.
>Not only should it have been mentioned in the patch message, but
>there should have been a clear explanation of *why* the guise was
>removed.
How about "the master craftsman NPC who made these died, and the
secrets of his art died with him". That reason is completely in
keeping with a "role-playing" game.
>Incidentally, saying that "there's not really a whole lot of sense in
>announcing it for the people who would *like* to figure it out on
>their own" is, frankly, ridiculously stupid.
>Nobody in Everquest figures things out on their own. Everybody reads
>websites or talks to their guild... that's how information is
>disseminated.
Sure. And how did those web pages get the information in the first
place?
Gordon Wrinn
news:8E974582Dvi...@207.126.101.100...
> Not only should it have been mentioned in the patch message, but
> there should have been a clear explanation of *why* the guise was
> removed. Something like:
>
> - The Guise of the Deceiver has been changed. If you already have one
> it will remain the same, but all new drops will be bard/rogue-usable
> only. This item was removed since it trivializes a unique ability of
> the Tier'dal (ultravision) and also gives free faction to every race.
> The code to make items race/class specific had only recently been
> added, or the guise would have worked in this matter from the very
> beginning.
Well, yes, that's a pretty good explanation, and if we routinely told people
about the effects and stats of items, we probably would have made that post.
We will in most cases announce when changes are being made to items already
in a player's inventory, but that didn't happen here.
> I was under the impression that patch messages like the above were a
> major part of your job. Instead, we got a message marginally better
> than what we're used to.
At least we're making progress :) But seriously, we do acknowlege that we
can say more in those patch messages, and we are working to make that
happen. I've been here a total of four days now, and as you can imagine
there is quite a bit to learn.
> Nobody in Everquest figures things out on their own. Everybody reads
> websites or talks to their guild... that's how information is
> disseminated.
Actually it's been our experience that the majority of people like to find
things out on their own, but that's just our observation. I'm actually
amazed at the wealth of information available out there on the 'net about
EQ, and I imagine that someone had to "figure things out" in order for that
information to get there.
I think that one of the first things that we at Verant need to do is
establish some expectations for what you can expect to see communicated.
I'll work on getting that information out today.
-Gordon
--
W. Gregory Klett
an area, talked to all the local NPC's, run all the quests available.
Well, should I really be expected to come back after EVERY patch and see
if something has been changed in an area I supposedly already know well?
Should I be expected to find on my own that the MOB i hunted last month
which dropped A and B and rarely C, now drops B and X and rarely Y???
Not to mention is it really fair that the MOB I hunted the night before a
patch would suddenly become either unhuntable, or incredibly easy, the
very next day? I do not hunt guards, and for RP reasons will never do it,
but friends I have who do now get killed by Guards they used to handle
easily. A week later VI bothers to comment on this...
Lokari
>My problem with the unannounced changes is that after you have explored
>an area, talked to all the local NPC's, run all the quests available.
>Well, should I really be expected to come back after EVERY patch and see
>if something has been changed in an area I supposedly already know well?
No, not at all. No one expects you to do this, and you certainly don't
have to. Just don't be surprised to discover that things *have*
changed.
Dynamic, remember?
>Should I be expected to find on my own that the MOB i hunted last month
>which dropped A and B and rarely C, now drops B and X and rarely Y???
>Not to mention is it really fair that the MOB I hunted the night before a
>patch would suddenly become either unhuntable, or incredibly easy, the
>very next day?
"Fair"? Is there some problem with /conning what you're planning on
fighting, and paying attention to how the fight is starting, and
determining if you should run?
>but friends I have who do now get killed by Guards they used to handle
>easily.
They should have not gotten complacent.
>A week later VI bothers to comment on this...
I don't see why they commented at all. [Military commander realizes
that the guards are being killed. Decides to improve training and
strength of the guards at that location.]
W. Gregory Klett
> cyc...@minn.net (W. Gregory Klett) wrote:
>
> >My problem with the unannounced changes is that after you have explored
> >an area, talked to all the local NPC's, run all the quests available.
> >Well, should I really be expected to come back after EVERY patch and see
> >if something has been changed in an area I supposedly already know well?
>
> No, not at all. No one expects you to do this, and you certainly don't
> have to. Just don't be surprised to discover that things *have*
> changed.
>
> Dynamic, remember?
Yes, I do remember this. It is just the sheer volume of work required to
update the Logs I keep of which NPC says what, Cons what, and offers what.
Little things like how do you know an event is about to be run in QHills?
The Molds disappear from the merchants at the House there.
> "Fair"? Is there some problem with /conning what you're planning on
> fighting, and paying attention to how the fight is starting, and
> determining if you should run?
>
> >but friends I have who do now get killed by Guards they used to handle
> >easily.
>
> They should have not gotten complacent.
This is alas too true. It is just when everyday for the last month NPC X
spawns every 10 minutes at a set level, then it is easy to not notice any
change until it is too late. Familiarity breeds contempt, contempt makes
you careless...
> >A week later VI bothers to comment on this...
>
> I don't see why they commented at all. [Military commander realizes
> that the guards are being killed. Decides to improve training and
> strength of the guards at that location.]
LOL, ok ok, now that would have been a fun patch message!
Lwalgee
>>patch would suddenly become either unhuntable, or incredibly easy, the
>>very next day?
>
>fighting, and paying attention to how the fight is starting, and
>determining if you should run?
>
Well, the /con system is a bit of a joke, only tells you what you should stay
away from mostly :). A good example are griffawns, my warrior at 21/22 could
barely kill a half dead one left at zone and never bothered at all with a full
strength one, they just hit too darn hard. OTOH, they are mincemeat to my
buddys' caster types at 18th or so since they just root and nuke them, avoiding
the melee damage. Another example would be giants and high level centaurs,
they /con the same, but centaurs are far easier and worth just as much exp as
far as we could tell. It was more fun taking the big boy down tho.
>>but friends I have who do now get killed by Guards they used to handle
>>easily.
>
>They should have not gotten complacent.
>
True, you can always run into to wacko blue that suddenly rocks your world.
Lokari
>Yes, I do remember this. It is just the sheer volume of work required to
>update the Logs I keep of which NPC says what, Cons what, and offers what.
You track all that? Holy cow! I can't even keep track of where my
character sheet is.
>Little things like how do you know an event is about to be run in QHills?
>The Molds disappear from the merchants at the House there.
Really? That's a handy item to know.
>This is alas too true. It is just when everyday for the last month NPC X
>spawns every 10 minutes at a set level, then it is easy to not notice any
>change until it is too late. Familiarity breeds contempt, contempt makes
>you careless...
Gotten me killed several times. I richly deserved it every time, too!
Lokari
>you can always run into to wacko blue that suddenly rocks your world.
Oh yeah! Kizdean Gix has demonstrated that to my 24th Druid very
recently. He varies from green to blue con, and even at green he can
often roll me and smoke me without breaking a sweat.
Xirin Dazhbog
races to be smaller at higher levels. The funny thing is there probably
will be all those level 10 ogres blocking doorways complaining that now
they can't have their mask :(
--
Xirin Dazhbog of Higher Compendium
level 28 Wood Elf druid on Povar
Master Smith
Master Brewer
Average Tailor
Sam Schlansky
>Sam Schlansky <s...@deletethis.operation3d.com> wrote in message
>news:8E974582Dvi...@207.126.101.100...
>
>> Not only should it have been mentioned in the patch message, but
>> there should have been a clear explanation of *why* the guise
>> was removed. Something like:
>>
>> - The Guise of the Deceiver has been changed. If you already
>> have one it will remain the same, but all new drops will be
>> bard/rogue-usable only. This item was removed since it
>> trivializes a unique ability of the Tier'dal (ultravision) and
>> also gives free faction to every race. The code to make items
>> race/class specific had only recently been added, or the guise
>> would have worked in this matter from the very beginning.
>
>Well, yes, that's a pretty good explanation, and if we routinely
>told people about the effects and stats of items, we probably
>would have made that post. We will in most cases announce when
>changes are being made to items already in a player's inventory,
>but that didn't happen here.
Like I said in the original message, nobody expects you to list every
item that has been changed in every patch. On the other hand, common
sense dictates that certain items should ALWAYS be mentioned.
For example, when Ghoulbane switches to being a quest item (which I
expect) this should be mentioned in the patch text. The same goes for
all of the really good items such as the manastone, box of abu-kar,
Oracle robes, JBoots, haste sash, ykesha, etc.
All the crap that's way overcamped that you'll EVENTUALLY change to
quest-only or just plain remove.
I wouldn't expect you to say in the patch message
- The silverish scimitar dropped by a rare spawn in South Karana has
been changed from 6/22 to 6/21 plus five wisdom.
... on the other hand I would and DO expect you to say
- The Short Sword of Ykesha has been moved to a quest originating in
Freeport. The Ghoul Lord now drops a warrior-only equivalent.
Stuff like that. Stuff that *everybody* already knows about. You
won't be spoiling anyone.
(snip)
>> Nobody in Everquest figures things out on their own. Everybody
>> reads websites or talks to their guild... that's how information
>> is disseminated.
>
>Actually it's been our experience that the majority of people like
>to find things out on their own, but that's just our observation.
>I'm actually amazed at the wealth of information available out
>there on the 'net about EQ, and I imagine that someone had to
>"figure things out" in order for that information to get there.
Yes, of course. One person "figured things out" and leaked it
eventually, until it finally got on the websites. For example, I was
one of the first three people to get a polished granite tomahawk on
the Rathe. The person who first found it told me where it dropped
(after a great deal of begging, mind you) and I went and got a
couple.
If the PGT was still in that stage, where maybe ten people per server
knew about it, then you'd be justified in not discussing it in patch
messages for obvious reasons.
However, today, everybody and their mother has a PGT. It isn't a
secret, and literally everybody knows about it, much like the Guise
of the Deceivers. If the item is to be changed, it's a prime
candidate for a little paragraph in the patch text.
>I think that one of the first things that we at Verant need to do
>is establish some expectations for what you can expect to see
>communicated. I'll work on getting that information out today.
That would be great. I'm looking forward to it.
danstrad
shamans, apparently this is one of the reasons the manastone was removed.
The quest item i assume youre referring to is the Words of Darkness, which
is necro only and casts a necro hp->mana spell of a much lower level then
the necro would need to be to obtain the item. In no way is this 'unfair' to
other classes.
Kerzon wrote in message ...
Noslom
>However, today, everybody and their mother has a PGT. It isn't a
>secret, and literally everybody knows about it, much like the Guise
>of the Deceivers. If the item is to be changed, it's a prime
>candidate for a little paragraph in the patch text.
Some of us like to find things out on our own and would prefer
not to be assaulted with spoiler information in the patch
messages.
Noslom
Sam Schlansky
<w0Z34.39251$m4.126...@news.magma.ca>:
Again, you're missing the point.
Honestly now-- did you know about the guise of the deceiver, the
manastone, and the polished granite tomahawk? Would you have been
spoiled?