**REDGUARD- dialogue system poll

[Todd Howard]

Hey all,

Figure I'd open this one up to the masses:

We're working on a new game at Bethesda, called REDGUARD. It is the
first in a new line called THE ELDER SCROLLS ADVENTURES. It is sort of
an action/adventure mix. Part RPG, but not that much. You sword fight,
pickup objects, talk to people, etc. Takes place in a very detailed
world, 3D characters, digitized speech, ..the works. It has a
pirate/swashbuckling feel to the whole thing. I'll post more details
later.

Anyway, I'm trying to keep the interface as simple as possible and
there's been some discussion about how to handle dialogue in the game. A
number of systems have been mentioned and I just figured I'd get on and
take suggestions. My current favorite is a keyword system similiar to
Ultima 7. It's fast and flexible, and is one of the few systems that
makes it seem like a real conversation is going on.

Thoughts? Please respond!

Thanks,

Todd Howard
Project Leader REDGUARD
Bethesda Softworks

[Kevin]

Hi Todd. I agree, I thought the Ultima 7 system for handling diaglogue
was good. If I recall, my only problem with that system was that at
times there so many keywords in a given conversation I had trouble
tracking whether I had queried them all. If this could be addressed,
the system would be outstanding.

Kevin Lapour

[Zach Williams]

Todd Howard wrote:
>
> Anyway, I'm trying to keep the interface as simple as possible and
> there's been some discussion about how to handle dialogue in the game. A
> number of systems have been mentioned and I just figured I'd get on and
> take suggestions. My current favorite is a keyword system similiar to
> Ultima 7. It's fast and flexible, and is one of the few systems that
> makes it seem like a real conversation is going on.
>
> Thoughts? Please respond!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Howard

Hi Todd,
That'd be my choice. I always thought the keyword system was
the best, ever since Ultima 4. It feels like you're actually talking.
Also, DON'T highlight the keywords. That way you have to actually pay
attention and read carefully, which adds to the feeling of actually
holding a conversation.

Zach

[Joel Mathis]

Zach Williams <prec...@ids.net> wrote in article
<33537F...@ids.net>...

> That'd be my choice. I always thought the keyword system was
> the best, ever since Ultima 4. It feels like you're actually talking.
> Also, DON'T highlight the keywords. That way you have to actually pay
> attention and read carefully, which adds to the feeling of actually
> holding a conversation.

Keywords are definitly nice, but I would rather not have to type them.
Saves on greif if the conversation threads were provided for you based on
what was said earlier.

[ochen^qminc]

keyword is good, although i liked the ultima 6 version of it better, since
it made you have to pay attention to conversations to know what to ask
instead of new options just popping up.

---
oc...@worldnet.att.net / oc...@uci.edu dm/qm/raid.
"the devils of truth steal the souls of the free" --nin
>> http://users.deltanet.com/~ochen/ homepage at delta.net <<

[Christopher A. Tew]

On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:28:32 -0400, Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com>
wrote:

>
>Hey all,
>
>Figure I'd open this one up to the masses:
>
>We're working on a new game at Bethesda, called REDGUARD. It is the
>first in a new line called THE ELDER SCROLLS ADVENTURES. It is sort of
>an action/adventure mix. Part RPG, but not that much. You sword fight,
>pickup objects, talk to people, etc. Takes place in a very detailed
>world, 3D characters, digitized speech, ..the works. It has a
>pirate/swashbuckling feel to the whole thing. I'll post more details
>later.

Actually, it sounds better than the actual Elder Scrolls RPGs, which
had nothing but a totally generic feel about them. Ever since
Pirates!, I've been wanting to play another Pirate/swashbuckler type
game.

>Anyway, I'm trying to keep the interface as simple as possible and
>there's been some discussion about how to handle dialogue in the game. A
>number of systems have been mentioned and I just figured I'd get on and
>take suggestions. My current favorite is a keyword system similiar to
>Ultima 7. It's fast and flexible, and is one of the few systems that
>makes it seem like a real conversation is going on.

NAME JOB BYE

Gah...that was evil...I'm sure that the intent was to have the player
imagine that the Aryan Avatar was walking around and asking people,
"Who the hell are you? What the hell do you do, anyway?" but that
intent didn't shine through because the depth of detail in the world
led the player to expect a depth of detail in the conversations. And
you know that a conversation system is bad when the game parodies it
in-game...

Of all the conversation systems in any CRPG I enjoyed the one in the
much maligned Ultima 8 the most. The sentences were whole, and the
conversation flowed logically. You couldn't go off and ask someone
out of the blue about something said 5 minutes earlier. The one flaw
is taht you coulnd't reverse the flow of conversation...lead the
subject back to the earlier topic through a similar flowchart of
complete sentences.

Later, and it's always nice to see developers ask players for
suggestions. Too bad most companies don't do that...

Christopher Tew

*
Ain't it dead yet?
*

[Daniel Perret]

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:36:43 -0700, ochen^qminc
<oc...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:

>
>keyword is good, although i liked the ultima 6 version of it better, since
>it made you have to pay attention to conversations to know what to ask
>instead of new options just popping up.
>
>
>---
>oc...@worldnet.att.net / oc...@uci.edu dm/qm/raid.
> "the devils of truth steal the souls of the free" --nin
> >> http://users.deltanet.com/~ochen/ homepage at delta.net <<
>
>On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Todd Howard wrote:
>>

>> Anyway, I'm trying to keep the interface as simple as possible and
>> there's been some discussion about how to handle dialogue in the game. A
>> number of systems have been mentioned and I just figured I'd get on and
>> take suggestions. My current favorite is a keyword system similiar to
>> Ultima 7. It's fast and flexible, and is one of the few systems that
>> makes it seem like a real conversation is going on.
>

I agree with you. It would be better that the one in DaggerFall.
The Ultima 7 was good. But if i have to choose, i'd prefer the Ultima
6 way.

[Todd Howard]

Sounds like I'm headed on the right track....
I don't think I want the player typing anything (u6)...I just think it
would make the conversations seem like "work" after a while, even if it
is simple typing.

Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
repeat it..that would get annoying.

- Todd Howard

[Gouge11]

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:36:43 -0700, ochen^qminc
<oc...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:

>
>keyword is good, although i liked the ultima 6 version of it better, since
>it made you have to pay attention to conversations to know what to ask
>instead of new options just popping up.
>
>
>---

Ok....hmmm.......Why should you need the system make you pay attention
to the conversation?......Shouldnt you be paying attention
anyway?....I dont know, call me lazy, but i hated typing in a bunch of
words only to get the response, "I cannot help thee with that." A lot
of the stuff i wanted to ask them about i couldnt....It just seems
like less of a headache to have the choices pop-up, either by
key-words or as sentences.....I think I like the sentences better
tho...They give the conversation a more realistic feel.....

Gouge

[Robert Olesen]

Todd Howard wrote:

>
> Daniel Perret wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:36:43 -0700, ochen^qminc
> > <oc...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >keyword is good, although i liked the ultima 6 version of it better, since
> > >it made you have to pay attention to conversations to know what to ask
> > >instead of new options just popping up.
> > >
> > >
> > >---

Interesting idea - but - what if you can't stand your character's voice
and you have to listen to it all the time? Can you select or customize
it?

Robert Olesen.

[Gateway]

>Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
>get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
>conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
>everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
>Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
>about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
>will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
>guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
>repeat it..that would get annoying.
>
>- Todd Howard
>Project Leader REDGUARD
>Bethesda Softworks

Todd,

What ever you do, DON'T make it like the old ELIZA program from the late 70's.

(i.e.:
ELIZA> Hello. What is your name?
user> My name is George.
ELIZA> Hello George. How are you today?)

All it does it repeats back to you what you say and hearing yourself (or
character) just having something repeated back would get boring. If you have
the chance to check out something novel, check out the old Commadore-64 game
"Law of the West" and notice how when you speak to someone and ask them
certain question types it changes their attitude towards you for the better or
worse. Character interaction is needed in a computer game (which none have)
just as it is needed in a LRPG. You are getting a step closer.

Best,

Patrick Pennington
Gateway Games of Minneapolis

[Mongoose]

>> >On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Todd Howard wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, I'm trying to keep the interface as simple as possible and
>> >> there's been some discussion about how to handle dialogue in the game. A
>> >> number of systems have been mentioned and I just figured I'd get on and
>> >> take suggestions. My current favorite is a keyword system similiar to
>> >> Ultima 7. It's fast and flexible, and is one of the few systems that
>> >> makes it seem like a real conversation is going on.
>> >
>> I agree with you. It would be better that the one in DaggerFall.
>> The Ultima 7 was good. But if i have to choose, i'd prefer the Ultima
>> 6 way.
>
>Sounds like I'm headed on the right track....
>I don't think I want the player typing anything (u6)...I just think it
>would make the conversations seem like "work" after a while, even if it
>is simple typing.
>

>Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
>get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
>conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
>everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
>Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
>about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
>will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
>guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
>repeat it..that would get annoying.
>
>- Todd Howard
>Project Leader REDGUARD
>Bethesda Softworks

Digitized voice? From all the digitized voice I've heard I kinda
think its a waste. First of all when you asking a question its going
to get kinda boring if trhe persons saying the same thing over and
over in actual voice you can hear. Plus you don't want to wait for the
person to have to say something when you just want to get to the
point. I know I usually skip through any voice and just glance at the
text, basically what I do in Daggerfall.
-Mongoose

[Mongoose]

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:51:11 GMT, antr...@rio.com (Gouge11) wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:36:43 -0700, ochen^qminc
><oc...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>keyword is good, although i liked the ultima 6 version of it better, since
>>it made you have to pay attention to conversations to know what to ask
>>instead of new options just popping up.
>>
>>
>>---

>Ok....hmmm.......Why should you need the system make you pay attention
>to the conversation?......Shouldnt you be paying attention
>anyway?....I dont know, call me lazy, but i hated typing in a bunch of
>words only to get the response, "I cannot help thee with that." A lot
>of the stuff i wanted to ask them about i couldnt....It just seems
>like less of a headache to have the choices pop-up, either by
>key-words or as sentences.....I think I like the sentences better
>tho...They give the conversation a more realistic feel.....

Overall I think it might get boring, sooner or later your just
going to want to get to the point of teh subject.
-Mongoose

[Todd Howard]

Gateway wrote:
>
> >Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
> >get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
> >conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
> >everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
> >Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
> >about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
> >will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
> >guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
> >repeat it..that would get annoying.
> >
> >- Todd Howard
> >Project Leader REDGUARD
> >Bethesda Softworks
>

> Todd,
>
> What ever you do, DON'T make it like the old ELIZA program from the late 70's.
>
> (i.e.:
> ELIZA> Hello. What is your name?
> user> My name is George.
> ELIZA> Hello George. How are you today?)
>
> All it does it repeats back to you what you say and hearing yourself (or
> character) just having something repeated back would get boring. If you have
> the chance to check out something novel, check out the old Commadore-64 game
> "Law of the West" and notice how when you speak to someone and ask them
> certain question types it changes their attitude towards you for the better or
> worse. Character interaction is needed in a computer game (which none have)
> just as it is needed in a LRPG. You are getting a step closer.
>
> Best,
>
> Patrick Pennington
> Gateway Games of Minneapolis

Law of the West...played it...cool game. Could never sleep with the one
chick though..so I just shot everybody. Attitudes toward you is the
REALLY tricky part..and should be integral. I've devised a few ways of
doing it in a simple way...but none yet really have me (as a player)
sitting there saying "Should I say that? Will they like me more?" So I
have to work on it. I've played a few games that did this well (West was
one)...but they all had to SHOW you the whole line for you to pick
first, and right now I'm trying to work something out that doesn't have
to do that.

Todd Howard
Project leader REDGUARD
Bethesda Softworks

[Todd Howard]

Mongoose wrote:
>
> >> >On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Todd Howard wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway, I'm trying to keep the interface as simple as possible and
> >> >> there's been some discussion about how to handle dialogue in the game. A
> >> >> number of systems have been mentioned and I just figured I'd get on and
> >> >> take suggestions. My current favorite is a keyword system similiar to
> >> >> Ultima 7. It's fast and flexible, and is one of the few systems that
> >> >> makes it seem like a real conversation is going on.
> >> >
> >> I agree with you. It would be better that the one in DaggerFall.
> >> The Ultima 7 was good. But if i have to choose, i'd prefer the Ultima
> >> 6 way.
> >
> >Sounds like I'm headed on the right track....
> >I don't think I want the player typing anything (u6)...I just think it
> >would make the conversations seem like "work" after a while, even if it
> >is simple typing.
> >

> >Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
> >get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
> >conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
> >everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
> >Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
> >about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
> >will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
> >guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
> >repeat it..that would get annoying.
> >
> >- Todd Howard
> >Project Leader REDGUARD
> >Bethesda Softworks
>

> Digitized voice? From all the digitized voice I've heard I kinda
> think its a waste. First of all when you asking a question its going
> to get kinda boring if trhe persons saying the same thing over and
> over in actual voice you can hear. Plus you don't want to wait for the
> person to have to say something when you just want to get to the
> point. I know I usually skip through any voice and just glance at the
> text, basically what I do in Daggerfall.
> -Mongoose

there's a switch to skip the voice part, it especially sucks when it's
wordy, so we're trying to keep it short. Play Star Control 3, lots o
dialogue, with LONG readings. i was like CLICK...CLICK..shut up
already..CLICK...CLICK.

But voice does add a lot, really gives people "character" and we have
some professional voice talent lined up, so I promise it won't be too
annoying...but you can turn that off.

[Clee]

I agree. The only time I want to type in words is when I'm emailing or doing work. Not when I play games.
Unless the characters do exactly what you ask.
"Kick his ass."
"Get busy with the Barmaid."
"Burn down village"
"Run around and act like you just contracted Mad Cow disease."

Clee

[Gateway]

Todd,

How about a "word list"? Allow the player to choose 2-5 words that best
describe what he/she is trying to get across to the NPC. Certain NPC's would
find talking about "Sword's" offensive since they had a son or daughter killed
by the local Baron's guard for stealing some bread.. etc.. etc... and they
would get hostile with you. Not sure exactly how to get this across but that
is my two cents worth. It would be a lot of work but could be well worth the
effort since once written it could be assimilated (I sound a like Borg now)
into the other games. Hope the suggestion has some merit.

[Todd Howard]

TheZorkOne wrote:
>
> >>---
> >Ok....hmmm.......Why should you need the system make you pay attention
> >to the conversation?......Shouldnt you be paying attention
> >anyway?....I dont know, call me lazy, but i hated typing in a bunch of
> >words only to get the response, "I cannot help thee with that." A lot
> >of the stuff i wanted to ask them about i couldnt....It just seems
> >like less of a headache to have the choices pop-up, either by
> >key-words or as sentences.....I think I like the sentences better
> >tho...They give the conversation a more realistic feel.....
>
> Overall I think it might get boring, sooner or later your just
> going to want to get to the point of teh subject.
> -Mongoose
>

> I think the game itself may be boring since it will be an adventure more
> than an RPG (So I've heard). Adventure games are dying. One thing that
> sierra has going for it's current adventure titles like KQ8 and QFG5 is
> that they are 3d like QUAKE. I love Daggerfall, so don't get me wrong, I
> just think Adventures are dying.
> -TheZorkOne

Well, its only part adventure. Lots of action and NPCs as well. Think
Prince o Persia mixed with Ultima. (if that makes sense)

We're trying to put together a game that FEELS different than anything
else. And it is all true 3D.

[Elfbert the Magician]

Todd Howard wrote in article <33556E...@erols.com>...

>there's a switch to skip the voice part, it especially sucks when it's
>wordy, so we're trying to keep it short. Play Star Control 3, lots o
>dialogue, with LONG readings. i was like CLICK...CLICK..shut up
>already..CLICK...CLICK.
>
>But voice does add a lot, really gives people "character" and we have
>some professional voice talent lined up, so I promise it won't be too
>annoying...but you can turn that off.

Regardless of how professional sounding the voice is, please include the
text on the screen as well so we can read along. Diablo does this very
well, and the voice is high quality. The few places in Daggerfall with
voice is horrible (I'm really glad I had access to daggerweb to find out
what King Lysandus said at his tomb because I couldn't understand a word).
Also, make sure there's a way to repeat or re-read *everything*. In
Daggerfall I sometimes would accidentally clicked too soon when a message
was displayed, sending the message into the "void" forever.

[TheZorkOne]

[Magnus Itland]

Kevin <kaju...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Agree. How about color coding keywords for being asked before or not.
Of course, if new info becomes available the color would revert. :)

--
itl...@sn.no Yes! The one and only Magnus Itland.
The first signs of mental breakdown can be subtle,
such as for instance a slightly altered signature.

[Todd Howard]

Magnus Itland wrote:
>
> Kevin <kaju...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi Todd. I agree, I thought the Ultima 7 system for handling diaglogue
> >was good. If I recall, my only problem with that system was that at
> >times there so many keywords in a given conversation I had trouble
> >tracking whether I had queried them all. If this could be addressed,
> >the system would be outstanding.
>
> Agree. How about color coding keywords for being asked before or not.
> Of course, if new info becomes available the color would revert. :)
>

Easily done, and a great suggestion. RIght now I've been trying to make
the topics themselves change, so that you could always go back to a
question and get the same response (in case you didn't digest it all the
first time). This way, if the question had new info, it would appear as
a new entry..but I hadn't thought of color coding topics you had already
asked about. You shouldn't have to remember if you have gone down this
path or another one.

[Mongoose]

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:20:35 -0400, Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com>
wrote:

>

That reminds me of something, keep the log like dagerfall does so
you don't have to remember certain important facts like quest
objectives. And another thing is maybe something where you can go back
and review a conversation. In daggerfall once you closed the window
you would have any record of the conversation.

P.S. one more thing, how about being able to add your own notes to
something in your log book.
-Mongoose

[Ross E. Becker]

Hmm,

Most RPG's I have seen implement one or another
of two VERY different approaches to dialogue
systems- one, having each NPC's "knowledge tree"
pre-scripted like in ultima, and the other being
a mass of knowledge, where you can ask someone
about anything, and the game does a semi-random
lookup to determine if they knew something.
*cough, Daggerfall*

Me, I am a strong advocate of hybrids. How about
an approach that combines the two, into a single
dialogue system- where some NPC's have important
stuff scripted in, but all NPC's may be asked
about anything, and, while you are at it, adding
a more effective heuristic system for figuring
out when someone knows something?

A little more detail- take each piece of
information or knowledge, and tag it, with
things like geographical origin, obscurity,
factions that would have high interest in
it, time of origin, and rate of spread, and
you could end up with a database where you
would look up a piece of information, and
determine the likelyhood of an NPC "knowing"
it, based on the NPC's location, vocation,
age, etc. I believe a system like this would
provide _much_ more believeable interactions
with NPC's, without having to approach the
complexity of Chris Crawford's Erasmatazz
system.

--Ross (ikarius)
bec...@cis.ohio-state.edu

[Magnus Itland]

Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com> wrote:

>Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
>get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
>conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
>everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
>Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
>about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
>will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
>guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
>repeat it..that would get annoying.

Uh ... while everybody is supposed to have a soundcard and most of
us have reasonably fast CD drives, I have to inform you that a lot of
us are NOT native English speakers and slurry talking may seriously
ruin the game. (For a great example of this, listen to that funny
Diskworld adventure game.) If you go for speech, at least have a
text option. Crisp clear pronounciation, no remote dialect sounds
please. (I have a feeling that with elves and dwarves (?) involved,
there is this strong urge to really bend the pronounciation backwards
to sound slightly non-human...)

[Todd Howard]

Magnus Itland wrote:
>
> Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Someone mentioned how they didn't like the U7/U8 just pick the topic and
> >get response (name,job,bye), since it didn't seem like a ral
> >conversation. My current plan is for Keyword (or phrase at times, since
> >everything can't fit into one word) with digitized speach following it.
> >Such as "my sister" and you hear the character say "What do you know
> >about my sister?". All the dialogue, for both the character and the NPCs
> >will be full digitized voice, and I think most people want to hear their
> >guy without having to choose the exact sentence and then hearing him
> >repeat it..that would get annoying.
>
> Uh ... while everybody is supposed to have a soundcard and most of
> us have reasonably fast CD drives, I have to inform you that a lot of
> us are NOT native English speakers and slurry talking may seriously
> ruin the game. (For a great example of this, listen to that funny
> Diskworld adventure game.) If you go for speech, at least have a
> text option. Crisp clear pronounciation, no remote dialect sounds
> please. (I have a feeling that with elves and dwarves (?) involved,
> there is this strong urge to really bend the pronounciation backwards
> to sound slightly non-human...)
>

Right you are! And as many have suggested we will include a list of
switches for text and voice, whether you want to hear/see your own, the
NPCs..etc.

There will be characters that speak with wierd accents and the like,
including elves, argonians, and khajiits. There is even some dwarven
text you must translate into their native tongue. So text options will
help this along as well.

[Mongoose]

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:22:30 -0400, Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com>
wrote:

>

One other thing about teh repetiveness, theres a limit to how many
different responses someone could say, I mean to have a person respond
differently you would have to write a different response. When talking
to someone like the Spymaster ind Daggerfall, you could just keep
clicking OK and ask the same question over and over and eventually
after about 5 or so times, youd be getting the same answer. Another
thing is wouldn't a person get annoyed if you kept on asking him the
same question over and over and over....
-Mongoose

[cbou...@earthlink.com]

Its nice you care about our opinions and all, but my opinion is that
you should trash Redguard and make an RPG. I havn't bought an
adventure game since 1989 and its unlikely I'll buy yours either. Why
did you cross-post this request to newsgroups that have nothing to do
with your target demographics?

[Steve Cronin]

Its actually a 3rd person 3d (as in Tomb raider) game, which involves sword
fights, swinging from ropes, etcetc and has high resolution graphics. I am
moderately looking forward to this one, or at least looking forward to
seeing what it looks like. It sounds like Deathtrap Dungeon.

cbou...@earthlink.com wrote in article <336e6f17.10127741@news>...

[j.a.e.]

cbou...@earthlink.com wrote in article <336e6f17.10127741@news>...
> Its nice you care about our opinions and all, but my opinion is that
> you should trash Redguard and make an RPG. I havn't bought an
> adventure game since 1989 and its unlikely I'll buy yours either. Why
> did you cross-post this request to newsgroups that have nothing to do
> with your target demographics?

Well, this group has been pretty active/reactive towards Diablo. Similar
genre (crossbreed between Action/CRPG/Adventure), so it makes sense that
they would post here.

[Todd Howard]

Steve, you hit it pretty close. REDGUARD is a real hybrid..part action,
part adventure (and I don't mean in the action/adventure sense..I mean
finding items, thinking about their uses, who may need them, etc). It
even has a small bit of Role Playing, but I would never categorize it as
one...we reserve that for the regular TES games. REDGUARD allows us to
do something we've always wanted to do and never really hit well with
Daggerfall (in my opinion)...a real fantasy setting with a compelling
story. There is no random stuff in REDGUARD. It is all hand crafted and
detailed, from every palm tree placement to every line of dialogue. But
it also holds true the sense of freedom that all Elder Scrolls games
have. You can explore the island the game is set on at will, the game is
not level based. It almost has an "Ultima" feel in many ways.

I just wanted to make sure nobody thought it was a pure "adventure"
game. I think you'll be very surprised with how it plays and how elegant
the whole game system is at combining genres. I'll try to get some
screen shots up soon so you can get a better idea, but there is quite a
bit of concept art for it floating around.

Don't worry, we are by no means abandoning RPGs. We'll be doing a lot
more of them...but right now REDGUARD allows us to put some real texture
and soul into the world of Tamriel...something I have felt it needed.

- Todd Howard
Project Leader REDGUARD
Bethesda

Steve Cronin wrote:
>
> Its actually a 3rd person 3d (as in Tomb raider) game, which involves sword
> fights, swinging from ropes, etcetc and has high resolution graphics. I am
> moderately looking forward to this one, or at least looking forward to
> seeing what it looks like. It sounds like Deathtrap Dungeon.
>

[Clee]

Steve Cronin wrote:
>
> Its actually a 3rd person 3d (as in Tomb raider) game, which involves sword
> fights, swinging from ropes, etcetc and has high resolution graphics. I am
> moderately looking forward to this one, or at least looking forward to
> seeing what it looks like. It sounds like Deathtrap Dungeon.
>
> cbou...@earthlink.com wrote in article <336e6f17.10127741@news>...
> > Its nice you care about our opinions and all, but my opinion is that
> > you should trash Redguard and make an RPG. I havn't bought an
> > adventure game since 1989 and its unlikely I'll buy yours either. Why
> > did you cross-post this request to newsgroups that have nothing to do
> > with your target demographics?
> >
> >
> >
> >

It's like Deathtrap Dungeon except that you spend most of your time outdoors on an island. An island
populated with people, who go about their business. Birds fly by, ships rock in harbor, and flags wave in
the wind. The whole concept is cool, and I too look forward to the swashbuckling, and stuff.

It has action because of its sword fighting. It has adventure because of the puzzle solving, and exploration.
And because it's an off shoot of the Elder Scrolls, it's roots are in RPG. This game should appeal to a
number of folk. Too bad this fellow hasn't bought an adventure game in almost 10 years. He sure has missed
out on some great stuff, like Tomb Raider and Neverhood.

Clee

[Steve Cronin]

The only reason I am "somewhat looking forward to this one" is that I was
disappointed in the low res visuals in Daggerfall. Please, PLEASE allow
high resolution (at least 640X480X16 bit) and most importantly support the
3dfx cards. Control is a crucial issue, as you well know, and an innovative
method of weapon control would be fantastic. If these issues are addressed,
you will have sold at least one copy.

Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com> wrote in article
<336FD9...@erols.com>...

> Steve, you hit it pretty close. REDGUARD is a real hybrid..part action,
> part adventure (and I don't mean in the action/adventure sense..I mean
> finding items, thinking about their uses, who may need them, etc). It
> even has a small bit of Role Playing, but I would never categorize it as
> one...we reserve that for the regular TES games. REDGUARD allows us to
> do something we've always wanted to do and never really hit well with
> Daggerfall (in my opinion)...a real fantasy setting with a compelling
> story. There is no random stuff in REDGUARD. It is all hand crafted and
> detailed, from every palm tree placement to every line of dialogue. But
> it also holds true the sense of freedom that all Elder Scrolls games
> have. You can explore the island the game is set on at will, the game is
> not level based. It almost has an "Ultima" feel in many ways.
>
> I just wanted to make sure nobody thought it was a pure "adventure"
> game. I think you'll be very surprised with how it plays and how elegant
> the whole game system is at combining genres. I'll try to get some
> screen shots up soon so you can get a better idea, but there is quite a
> bit of concept art for it floating around.
>
> Don't worry, we are by no means abandoning RPGs. We'll be doing a lot
> more of them...but right now REDGUARD allows us to put some real texture
> and soul into the world of Tamriel...something I have felt it needed.
>
> - Todd Howard
> Project Leader REDGUARD
> Bethesda
>
>

[Steve Cronin]

If what you is indeed in the final game then I will definitely buy a copy.
Although until it is released, or at least I see more as the game
progresses, I don't want to buy into the hype.

Clee <jc...@erols.com> wrote in article <336FDC...@erols.com>...

> Steve Cronin wrote:
> >
> > Its actually a 3rd person 3d (as in Tomb raider) game, which involves
sword
> > fights, swinging from ropes, etcetc and has high resolution graphics. I
am
> > moderately looking forward to this one, or at least looking forward to
> > seeing what it looks like. It sounds like Deathtrap Dungeon.
> >
> > cbou...@earthlink.com wrote in article <336e6f17.10127741@news>...
> > > Its nice you care about our opinions and all, but my opinion is that
> > > you should trash Redguard and make an RPG. I havn't bought an
> > > adventure game since 1989 and its unlikely I'll buy yours either. Why
> > > did you cross-post this request to newsgroups that have nothing to do
> > > with your target demographics?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>

[Ted Thygesen]

> Its nice you care about our opinions and all, but my opinion is that
> you should trash Redguard and make an RPG. I havn't bought an
> adventure game since 1989 and its unlikely I'll buy yours either. Why
> did you cross-post this request to newsgroups that have nothing to do
> with your target demographics?

I really hate to tell you this, but more people responded positivly to
it. You are NOT the only person in this world. I probably won't buy it
either, then again I didn't even know about TES until daggerfall was at
patch 200. Let alone want it. Still, advice helps make the game
better. And if enough people contribute, I might buy that game. I
think asking what people want is a great idead. If you don't like it,
you can ignore these types of postings. (just like you could ignore
what I just wrote)

Again, my appologies if I might of offended you by telling you your not
the only person in the world.

P.S. Maybe an unlikely thing will happen, and (through his questions) a
really great adventure game will be made, and you buy it. Remember, it
was also unlikely that a small untrained rebelious colony could defeat
the most powerfull country in the world (American Revolution). Unlikely
things do happen, you might be suppirised.

Besides, I'm sure they have another group putting out another RPG (such
as TES:3) since they have had huge successes in the past.

[cbou...@earthlink.com]

>Again, my appologies if I might of offended you by telling you your not
>the only person in the world.

>Besides, I'm sure they have another group putting out another RPG (such

>as TES:3) since they have had huge successes in the past.

I realize I'm not the only person in the world. I didn't like
Daggerfall either but it was a "huge" success. I miss the games of the
past, I don't like the shallow stuff that has been coming out in
recent years. Unfortunately for me a lot of people apparently do. I am
entitled to voice my opinion though. I am part of a market that is not
being serviced and we are not happy about it. Its not a nice feeling
having the PC game Industry that you have been so heavily involved in
for so many years turn into the console game industry just because of
corporate greed.

[Clee]

Steve Cronin wrote:
>
> If what you is indeed in the final game then I will definitely buy a copy.
> Although until it is released, or at least I see more as the game
> progresses, I don't want to buy into the hype.

Isn't any non-negative post, preview, scoop, discussion, or email pretty much "hype" <g>.
Hype is such a funny thing. If something lives up to the hype, then no one considers it hype, it's just good
product & marketing. But if it doesn't, then everyone says "it did live up to the hype." When it comes down
to it, things rarely live up to your expectations, once you start building it up. Thus, from now on, I'm
going to think everything sucks!

Clee

[Steve Cronin]

God that is true. I am starting to do the same thing. Even after I got
burned in the XWING v. TIE FIGHTER fiasco. I cant help it though with
Unreal and JediKnight.

Clee <jc...@erols.com> wrote in article <337113...@erols.com>...

[Steve Cronin]

I have to agree with you about the shallowness of current games, especially
Daggerfall and X-wing V. TIE(recently). However some companied are
beginning to realize that for the amount of money people shell out, they
want more for their dollar, game editors, mission editors, etc. I have a
shelf full of games that were great those first few days of novelty of
having a game you have been waiting for, but were never touched after that.
Quake is the only game I have had for a while and still play often. With
the new maps, free internet play, unlimited types of internet play, and the
ability to make your own maps, this is best game out there...I76 is another
great game that allows for map editors, hopefully car editors...

cbou...@earthlink.com wrote in article <3370d247.87556235@news>...

[Randall Flagg]

On Tue, 06 May 1997 21:23:18 -0400, Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com>
wrote:

>Don't worry, we are by no means abandoning RPGs. We'll be doing a lot
>more of them...but right now REDGUARD allows us to put some real texture
>and soul into the world of Tamriel...something I have felt it needed.
>
>- Todd Howard
>Project Leader REDGUARD
>Bethesda

Sorry, but I think you guys abandoned RPGs when you released that
completely unplayable mess named DAGGERFALL.

[Ted Thygesen]

cbou...@earthlink.com wrote:
>
> >Again, my appologies if I might of offended you by telling you your not
> >the only person in the world.
>
> >Besides, I'm sure they have another group putting out another RPG (such
> >as TES:3) since they have had huge successes in the past.
>
> I realize I'm not the only person in the world. I didn't like
> Daggerfall either but it was a "huge" success. I miss the games of the
> past, I don't like the shallow stuff that has been coming out in
> recent years. Unfortunately for me a lot of people apparently do. I am
> entitled to voice my opinion though. I am part of a market that is not
> being serviced and we are not happy about it. Its not a nice feeling
> having the PC game Industry that you have been so heavily involved in
> for so many years turn into the console game industry just because of
> corporate greed.

Oh, I though you liked Daggerfall, but didn't like the idea of
redguard. Sorry, my fault

[TheZorkOne]

>>Don't worry, we are by no means abandoning RPGs. We'll be doing a lot
>>more of them...but right now REDGUARD allows us to put some real texture
>>and soul into the world of Tamriel...something I have felt it needed.
>>
>>- Todd Howard
>>Project Leader REDGUARD
>>Bethesda
>
>
>Sorry, but I think you guys abandoned RPGs when you released that
>completely unplayable mess named DAGGERFALL.

I think Flagg abandoned logical thinking when he posted his message.
Daggerfall is the best RPG I've ever seen or played. If Flagg doesn't like
it, he can go bitch about it somewhere else.

[Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven]

TheZorkOne <thezo...@aol.com> schreef in artikel
<19970509203...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

> >>Don't worry, we are by no means abandoning RPGs. We'll be doing a lot
> >>more of them...but right now REDGUARD allows us to put some real
texture
> >>and soul into the world of Tamriel...something I have felt it needed.
> >

> >Sorry, but I think you guys abandoned RPGs when you released that
> >completely unplayable mess named DAGGERFALL.
>
> I think Flagg abandoned logical thinking when he posted his message.
> Daggerfall is the best RPG I've ever seen or played. If Flagg doesn't
like
> it, he can go bitch about it somewhere else.
>

Well I have to admit that some parts of Daggerfall are a mess, especially
in the beginning. But I'd like to try Redguard too, just to see how the
story (of Tamriel) unfolds and to discover a lil' bit more...
BTW is TES: Arena still available? And what's it like?
ThnX

Asmodai <asm...@pi.net>

[Magnus Itland]

Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com> wrote:

>Steve, you hit it pretty close. REDGUARD is a real hybrid..part action,
>part adventure (and I don't mean in the action/adventure sense..I mean
>finding items, thinking about their uses, who may need them, etc). It
>even has a small bit of Role Playing, but I would never categorize it as
>one...we reserve that for the regular TES games. REDGUARD allows us to
>do something we've always wanted to do and never really hit well with
>Daggerfall (in my opinion)...a real fantasy setting with a compelling
>story. There is no random stuff in REDGUARD. It is all hand crafted and
>detailed, from every palm tree placement to every line of dialogue. But
>it also holds true the sense of freedom that all Elder Scrolls games
>have. You can explore the island the game is set on at will, the game is
>not level based. It almost has an "Ultima" feel in many ways.

Careful with the copyright issues then.
But it's nice _somebody_ is making new "Ultima" games ... :)

[Magnus Itland]

Fl...@limbo.com (Randall Flagg) wrote:

>Sorry, but I think you guys abandoned RPGs when you released that
>completely unplayable mess named DAGGERFALL.

Obviously there are different views on that issue.
For us who actually play it, it is hard to call it anything but
a RPG. But these distinctions blur more for every year.

[Magnus Itland]

[Magnus Itland]

[Todd Howard]

The lines are blurring on RPGs because it is one of the few game genres
that is defined by the "goal", and not by the type of "interaction". For
instance, action games all have a lot of twitch and hand-eye stuff. Fast
and reflex oriented. While strategy games emphasize thinking, tacticts,
and uhh...well, strategy.

But RPGs are about developing a character. This says nothing about the
interaction. It could be action oriented or turn based. When doing an
RPG, you still need to design what type of game it is going to be. Will
it be more action, or adventure game like, or turn-based, etc? You get
the idea. Daggerfall is very action based, becasue everything happens in
real-time.

REDGUARD, while not an RPG, is a total mix, which RPGs often are. You
decide what you want the player to experience and how the game feels,
and then see what type of interactions will be the most fun. That is why
Redguard is such a hybrid. Look at Archon or Star Control 2, both those
games use different interactions to form a cohesive whole.

Just my 2 cents for now...

Todd Howard
Project Leader REDGUARD

Bethesda.

[CLee]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------568D1C8062FF
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

OK, OK, OK, here's the first fresh from the bakery Redguard screenshot. Actually, I
posted this about a week ago, but it somehow was corrupted. My bad.

OK, OK, OK, here it is.

OK, OK, OK, you ready?

Joe Pesci

--------------568D1C8062FF
Content-Type: image/jpeg
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="redguard.jpg"

<encoded_portion_removed>
CkKe3Xv6VUvLG4hXMMhyOoxjPt7VtJyteK0OeCg5Wm1c/9k=
--------------568D1C8062FF--

[slink]

I think the lines may be blurring even more than you think. Strategy
gamers are demanding real-time games these days. I didn't think of DF
as an action game just because it was real-time. I think perhaps the
goal definition may apply to all of the genres. An action game may be
one where the goal is to display your physical fitness and
co-ordination, using a virtual body.

Sandra

[Magnus Itland]

Todd Howard <tho...@erols.com> wrote:

>But RPGs are about developing a character. This says nothing about the
>interaction. It could be action oriented or turn based. When doing an
>RPG, you still need to design what type of game it is going to be. Will
>it be more action, or adventure game like, or turn-based, etc? You get
>the idea. Daggerfall is very action based, becasue everything happens in
>real-time.

Daggerfall could have been dangerously close to an action game.
If you meet whoever inserted the "reflex" choice at the initial
character generation, say thanks from me. I now know what I have
missed in some other games.

>REDGUARD, while not an RPG, is a total mix, which RPGs often are. You
>decide what you want the player to experience and how the game feels,
>and then see what type of interactions will be the most fun. That is why
>Redguard is such a hybrid. Look at Archon or Star Control 2, both those
>games use different interactions to form a cohesive whole.

I understand that REDGUARD will not have character development per se.
Frankly I think that means I am not going to play it very long. Guess
I'll still buy the game to see how many of our ideas have gone into
it, though ... :)

--
itl...@sn.no Yes! The one and only Magnus Itland.
Fitting together is for jigsaw puzzles.