REVOLT! was REMINDER: A.G.D.* is *NOT* moving to R.G.C.D.* DICTATORSHIP!

Galactus

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Dec 21, 1994, 2:03:52 PM12/21/94

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You forgot the :-)

Hope this helps,

Galactus.

--
--..........................---===oooOOOOooo===---..........................--
.<gala...@stack.urc.tue.nl>.........||."I'm the best there is at what I do..
.PGP public key available by finger..||..Though what I do isn't very nice!"..
\........................../---===oooOOOOooo===---\...Wolverine............../

Richard Ward

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Dec 21, 1994, 7:16:13 PM12/21/94

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[100+ lines of childish paranioa deleted]

You, chowderhead! Have you even tried reading the rec.games.computer.doom.*
newsgroups? Do you know what the fuck you are even talking about? I think
the answer to both of these questions is "no".

There is only _one_ moderated newsgroup in the rec.games.computer.doom.* area
and that is r.g.c.d.announce (which replaces alt.games.doom.announce (which is
also moderated, btw)). The rest of the newsgroups have coordinators. Do you
know what a coordinator does? I didn't think so. Coordinators do three basic
things:

1: Keep track of usefull information pertaining to the focus of thier newsgroup
and try and get that information to whomever needs it (they do not replace
"good samaritan" users who also help),

2: Re-route inapropriate posts from one newsgroup to the one it "belongs" in
(say, forwarding an WAD editing question from r.g.c.d.help to r.g.c.d.editing)
Modorators do _not_ have the power to prevent _anyone_ from posting, nor
can they cancel other peoples posts,

3: Remind people that posting binaries to their newsgroups is frowned upon.

Why don't you _try_ the new newsgroups before bitching and moaning about them?
($10.00 bet that this clown is really AJ Peterson.)

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Richard Ward rrw...@netcom.com |
| Coordinator - rec.games.computer.doom.misc |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Steve Bushore

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Dec 21, 1994, 12:27:54 PM12/21/94

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In article <alt_78...@news.mantis.co.uk> vane...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (RGCD Steering Committee Chairman) writes:

>The following new rec.games.computer.doom newsgroups for discussing all
>versions and ports of DOOM and its addons were created on Nov 14:

-> CLIP! <-
>They are intended to be a Big 7 replacement and expansion of these groups:

-> CLIP! <-

>If you still read one of the alt.games.doom groups and you post an article
>there (or if you reply to an article), please set the "Followup-To:" line
>to the appropriate "r.g.c.d" group. This will ensure that all followups
>will go to the new group instead of the old one.

Right! So I should give you self-appointed dictators a chance to reek(sic)
your "editing". Thank you, NOT!

>The old "alt.games.doom" groups will be removed, eventually.

Don't bet on it.

> Be sure
>to subscribe to the new groups and post your articles there, because more
>and more people will abandon the old groups and move to the new ones.

Oh, sure. Everyone wants to be censored.

Can you spell "censored"?
C-E-N-S-O-R-E-D
Can you spell "moderated"?
C-E-N-S-O-R-E-D
Can you spell "coordinated"?
C-E-N-S-O-R-E-D
And finally, can you spell "rec.games.computer.doom"?
C-E-N-S-O-R-E-D

And more and more NON-SHEEP (most DOOM players) will return when they see how
really crappy it is to have moderated/coordinated (read censored) news groups.

Maybe most of the rest of the world "enjoys" living under conditions of
dictatorship, but I am not and will not and I believe most DOOM players feel
the same.

>If you do not receive the rec.games.computer.doom.* hierarchy from your
>local news server, you should contact your newsadmin and ask that these
>groups be added. The "rec" groups usually get a better propagation than
>the "alt" groups, so there shouldn't be any problem.

There is ALWAYS a problem with censorship and "Moderated" or "Coordinated" are
just other ways to say CENSORED! The ONLY group that has any reason for
control of any kind is the announce group and that should be controlled by ID,
not some <insert favorite explitive here> self appointed committee that has
absolutely no ties to ID. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ID was
an American company and DOOM was an American product. Why then do I see
mostly non-Americans (3 out of 5 groups) attempting to inflict censorship and
dictatorial control over us? Somebody write a Boston Tea Party WAD.

*******************************************************************
* *
* ++ FREE THINKING PEOPLE ++ *
* (that should include most DOOM players and Americans) *
* GET OFF YOUR DUFFS AND TOSS THE WOULD BE DICTATORS OUT *
* *
* BOYCOTT THE NEW GROUPS UNTIL THE WOULD BE DICTATORS ARE DEPOSED *
* *
*******************************************************************

>Before posting to the new groups, be sure to read the
POSTING GUIDELINES>article in the rec.games.computer.doom.announce newsgroup.

Richard Ward

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Dec 27, 1994, 1:00:09 PM12/27/94

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In article <an171209.1...@anon.penet.fi> an17...@anon.penet.fi (Black Kross) writes:
>A REMINDER:
>
>alt.games.doom and alt.games.doom][ are not moving to the rec. groups.
>Check the rec. groups, they are almost empty. Please continue to look in the
>alt. groups for doom, doom][, and Heretic information. Ignore any post
>telling you that these groups are moving. I suggest you set your kill file up
>to ignore posts from the people who are telling you to move.
>
>Black Kross.

I just love militant bullshit like this from people not even willing to post
under their real names. So, Balck Kross (oooh, creative misplelling , you are
so kewl!), what are you hiding?

Steve Bushore

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Dec 28, 1994, 2:18:09 PM12/28/94

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I post under my real name, how about that? I just hate people who use
put downs instead of addressing the issues. The issue is that "Black Kross"
is correct that alt.games.doom IS NOT MOVING. "Mr" Ward" and his un-official
self-proclaimed committee would like to have you believe that, but they have
NO authority to kill this newsgroup and it will remain as long as WE choose to
keep it active.

I also notice that this group is still way more active than the new r.g.c.d
areas. That must say something about doom players and their desire to be
uncensored/controlled. "Mr" Ward and his non-committee just cannot seem to
handle this bit of truth about people.

Using a kill file only helps yourself, I suggest that you start writing to the
system administrators of any member of the so called "RGCD* Steering
Committee" who continues to post messages that are in your opinion
deliberately untruthful and/or malicious.

Take note "Mr" Ward! My real name. ----> Steve Bushore

All e-mail returned to sender unread.
Public posts ignored or repied to as I see fit.

Frans P. de Vries

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Dec 26, 1994, 7:58:16 PM12/26/94

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Steve, you sound like a stupid, paranoid moron, who has been playing Heretic
once too often and got chickenized :-)

The "coordinators" are self-appointed, yes, but only because they are willing
to put up with the chores more than others. They know just as well as anybody
else that discussions in Usenet newsgroups cannot be coordinated, controlled
or censored in any way. Their purpose was outlined in this announcement:

[clip]
Each unmoderated discussion newsgroup in the rec.games.computer.doom
hierarchy now has a 'coordinator' assigned to it to keep an eye out for
inappropriate articles and to help disseminate accurate information.

Since the discussion groups are not moderated, these 'coordinators'
have no actual power, but share a common goal of making these new
rec.games.computer.doom newsgroups accurate sources of information and
useful forums for discussion.
[clip]

From the bloating blather you've posted here it is evident that you haven't
read this, nor read the new groups for any length of time. You would then
have noticed that these coordinators post infrequently, merely help answering
questions and aren't even around all of the time, just like others. There is
*NO* way in which they could -- or would like to -- exercise any censorship.

BTW. Any real censorship might come from having a company that created a game
also be the moderator of a group. Fortunately ID doesn't have time for that
and neither do I believe they would do much in the way of censoring, but in
general the possibility exists. _American_ companies/products/ideas are no
guarantee for being refrained from censorship or sealing up about goofs as
long as possible (can you say "Clipper chip" "Pentium"? ;-)

I think that having people _independent_ of ID involved with these newsgroups
is a Good Thing[tm], especially if they are from all over the world. That is
a much better guarantee against censorship than having power centralized with
one company. By implying that you want ID to step in (even if it's with all
good intentions), you sound naive and you contradict your own views.

Steve Bushore (bus...@toontown.ssl.loral.com) wrote:
} My position is to stay with the alt groups until these self-declared leaders
} step aside and allow free exchange of ideas between DOOM players. I believe
} that free exchange is the basic charter of the internet, is it not?

Yes, and free exchange is all that happens in rgcd.*. But fine, if you want
to stay in alt.games.doom{.*}, go ahead. These groups _will_ be rmgroup'ed
in January so it'll get mighty lonely out there. Enjoy it. :)

} Any E-mail returned to sender unread - Replies/flames in this group will be
} read, but probably ignored as I am right - by definition opinions cannot be
} wrong. Exercising MY free will by expressing MY opinion freely.

Sure, you may express your opinions, but saying that "by definition you are
right" sounds like closed-mindedness to me.

All IMO, Frans
--
Frans P. de Vries | f...@xymph.iaf.nl | Maintainer of the RGCD FAQ

Black Kross

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Dec 28, 1994, 2:11:18 AM12/28/94

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In article <bushore.4...@toontown.ssl.loral.com> bus...@toontown.ssl.loral.com (Steve Bushore) writes:
>From: bus...@toontown.ssl.loral.com (Steve Bushore)
>Subject: Re: REVOLT! was REMINDER: A.G.D.* is *NOT* moving to R.G.C.D.* DICTATORSHIP!
>Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 19:18:09 GMT

>I post under my real name, how about that? I just hate people who use
>put downs instead of addressing the issues. The issue is that "Black Kross"
>is correct that alt.games.doom IS NOT MOVING. "Mr" Ward" and his un-official
>self-proclaimed committee would like to have you believe that, but they have
>NO authority to kill this newsgroup and it will remain as long as WE choose to
>keep it active.

>I also notice that this group is still way more active than the new r.g.c.d
>areas. That must say something about doom players and their desire to be
>uncensored/controlled. "Mr" Ward and his non-committee just cannot seem to
>handle this bit of truth about people.

>Using a kill file only helps yourself, I suggest that you start writing to the
>system administrators of any member of the so called "RGCD* Steering
>Committee" who continues to post messages that are in your opinion
>deliberately untruthful and/or malicious.

>Take note "Mr" Ward! My real name. ----> Steve Bushore

Well, I guess it never occurred to Mr. Ward that Black Kross might be my real
name??? Then again it might not. Right now, I am of the opinion that I am
allowed to post under my real name and real E-Mail address or I can post under
an anon address and Cyberspace Callsign. That is the kind of freedom you get
when you post to an UNMODERATED/COORDINATED newsgroup. I suspect you will get
no such freedom in the new rec.doom newsgroups. That would seem to be what
Mr. Ward is saying when he slams people for using a Callsign.

Black Kross (Creative Mis-Speller)

Steve Bushore

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Dec 29, 1994, 12:12:18 PM12/29/94

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In article <3dnor8$5...@xymph.iaf.nl> f...@xymph.iaf.nl (Frans P. de Vries) writes:

>Steve, you sound like a stupid, paranoid moron, who has been playing Heretic
>once too often and got chickenized :-)

It's a good thing you put the :-) on that, but I still fail to see why
the proponents of controlled newgroups insist on useless name calling
and/or put downs.

Since I have been accused of over quoting my responses, I apologize if I have
gone too far in underquoting from now on.

>The "coordinators" are self-appointed, yes, but only because they are willing
>to put up with the chores more than others. They know just as well as
>anybody else that discussions in Usenet newsgroups cannot be coordinated,
>controlled or censored in any way.

This statement seems to me rather contradictory to me. If they are
self-appointed, as we seem to agree on, how can one then possible assert
that "they are willing to put up with the chores more than others"?

If as you say "Usenet newsgroups cannot be coordinated, controlled or censored
in any way", then why declare them as coordinated? Just for the record, I
don't buy this premise and I don't think you do either.

>From the bloating blather you've posted here it is evident that you haven't
>read this, nor read the new groups for any length of time. You would then
>have noticed that these coordinators post infrequently, merely help answering
>questions and aren't even around all of the time, just like others. There is
>*NO* way in which they could -- or would like to -- exercise any censorship.

You and Richard Ward share a common fault in making assumptions about what I
do or do not do. If you had bothered to actually read my posts, you would see
that I have been following the new groups from their inceptions. I'm sorry,
but I disagree a bit with your observations in that I see post after post from
some of (as in not all) the so-called coordinators answering actual questions
from readers and finding it neccesary to acknowlege the accuracy of any
"good samaritan" answerer while also making numerous "control" level posts
regarding their interpretation of what is appropriate.

You were saying?

>>>>> CLIP <<<<<

>I think that having people _independent_ of ID involved with these newsgroups
>is a Good Thing[tm], especially if they are from all over the world. That is
>a much better guarantee against censorship than having power centralized with
>one company. By implying that you want ID to step in (even if it's with all
>good intentions), you sound naive and you contradict your own views.

Once again READ my posts. The only newsgroup that I suggested should be
controlled by ID, if anybody, was the announce newsgroup. I do not see that
as a contradiction by any stretch of the imagination.

For the record, I have no desire to eliminate the new groups they have THE
SAME right to exist as does this group. There is just as much a need for
totally unmoderated/uncoordinated/uncontrolled newsgroups as for your
alternative. Go ahead and have your place, just allow us to have one too.

All E-mail returned to sender unread.
Public replies will be read and ignored or responded to as I see fit.
(If it's worth saying, it's worth saying in public.)

Steve Bushore

Richard Ward

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Dec 29, 1994, 1:02:05 PM12/29/94

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In article <an171209.1...@anon.penet.fi> an17...@anon.penet.fi (Black Kross) writes:

>Well, I guess it never occurred to Mr. Ward that Black Kross might be my real
>name??? Then again it might not. Right now, I am of the opinion that I am
>allowed to post under my real name and real E-Mail address or I can post under
>an anon address and Cyberspace Callsign. That is the kind of freedom you get
>when you post to an UNMODERATED/COORDINATED newsgroup. I suspect you will get
>no such freedom in the new rec.doom newsgroups. That would seem to be what
>Mr. Ward is saying when he slams people for using a Callsign.

Well, I guess it never occurred to you (whatever you real name is) that I'm
not so stupid that I don't know about anon.penet.fi. I've got an anon
account there myself (but then, so do at least 171,209 other people).

You can post to the rec.games.computer.doom.* newsgroups with an anon adress
(some people can't post from where the work/access the net any other way).
You seem to think that the new groups are controlled by a bunch of
anal-retentive control freaks and that they are all moderated. You are wrong
on both counts (not that you'll bother to listen to me). Only one newsgroup
is moderated (and it replaces a moderated newsgrou). The others are open to
anyone who wants to post. If you don't believe me, try it and find out.

The difference between the rec groups and the alt.games.doom.* groups is that
the rec groups are divided according to braod topics (so you don't have to
read about mouse/keyboard debates if all you want is help editing maps). If
that bothers you, stay away. If you like the anarchy and flamewars (and
off-topic stuff that floods alt.games.doom.*) stay away.

PS: What color is an Imp?

Frans P. de Vries

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Dec 28, 1994, 7:57:47 PM12/28/94

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Black Kross (an17...@anon.penet.fi) wrote:
} A REMINDER:

} alt.games.doom and alt.games.doom][ are not moving to the rec. groups.
} Check the rec. groups, they are almost empty. Please continue to look in the
} alt. groups for doom, doom][, and Heretic information. Ignore any post
} telling you that these groups are moving. I suggest you set your kill file up
} to ignore posts from the people who are telling you to move.

} Black Kross.

And we're supposed to believe some schmuck hiding behind an anonymous
remailer? The alt.games.doom.ii group gets _less_ posts per day than _one_
of the rec.games.computer.doom.* groups alone. If you keep lurking around
here you sure are gonna miss out on a lot of action! Plus there's a weekly
FAQ that is actively updated with new info (the DOOM FAQ v6.666 sure has
_all_ the info but it was out-of-date weeks before its release; sorry Hank).

Besides, when the alt groups are rmgroup'ed they will continue only on those
servers that bluntly ignore all rmgroup's so they are destined to become
quiet lonely. And a.g.d.announce will definitely be empty.

But you don't have believe either Steve, Mr. Anon nor me. Just look around
the rec groups yourself and make up your own mind.

--
Frans P. de Vries | f...@xymph.iaf.nl | Maintainer of the RGCD FAQ

--
Questions about DOOM/][ are better asked in the rec.games.computer.doom.*
newsgroups. The alt.games.doom.ii group will be removed in a few weeks as
the new Big7 groups better serve the DOOMing Internet community at large :-)

Dave

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Dec 30, 1994, 10:39:42 AM12/30/94

to

i've been following the arguements regarding the new doom groups and my only question is why. i don't see the reason for constantly posting to this group that the doom groups are moving to blah blah blah.... if people want to keep posting here they'll keep posting here and if they want to post to the rec games group they will. so enough with the groups are moving already let's talk doom..

dave

Kendall Lister

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Jan 6, 1995, 9:22:50 PM1/6/95

to

What exactly does a 'coordinator' do?