What's Wrong with Magic Arrow?
Richard
with her. All the guides and comments I've read (aside from the
official guide) completely dismiss the Magic Arrow. I can definitely
understand their points, as there are a number of great skills down the
chain. However, I wonder if anyone out there has experimented with
taking this skill to its upper levels. I think by level 13 or
something like that it costs 0 mana and gives you a +12 damage
modifier, plus it (theoretically) always hits. So now you've got a
100% free skill with a decent damage boost. If your bow was doing 20
damage, you just increased damage from every shot by 50%. Combined
with a very fast, powerful bow and a lot of critical strike, I would
imagine it could be a pretty decent skill. BTW, does it negate
elemental effects?
As for me, I'd just like to say I've used it effectively as my main
attack (with a mana stealing bow) up til now at Slvl 3 or 4, I think.
It was great against Blood Raven and in the early going where I didn't
have many other options to increase damage. So at least it's not
completely useless, as suggested by many :-)
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Dan Neely
> OK,I'm just a novice bowazon (lev 11) and I'm having fun experimenting
> with her. All the guides and comments I've read (aside from the
> official guide) completely dismiss the Magic Arrow. I can definitely
> understand their points, as there are a number of great skills down the
> chain. However, I wonder if anyone out there has experimented with
> taking this skill to its upper levels. I think by level 13 or
> something like that it costs 0 mana and gives you a +12 damage
> modifier, plus it (theoretically) always hits. So now you've got a
> 100% free skill with a decent damage boost. If your bow was doing 20
> damage, you just increased damage from every shot by 50%. Combined
> with a very fast, powerful bow and a lot of critical strike, I would
> imagine it could be a pretty decent skill.
the biggest problem with MA is that it lacks crowd control. multishot,
strafe, exploding, immolation, and freezing arrows all hit multiple targets.
multishot and strafe also leech, so firing them continiously isn't a
problem. even against a single monster though, magic arrow doesn't provide
much of a damage boost. compare it to the other bow skills, the high level
elemental arrows apply over 100 extra damage to multiple targets, and high
level strafe will double your bow damage. compare that to MAs +19, that a
gothic bow has 10-50 BASE damage. MA just can't compete.
> As for me, I'd just like to say I've used it effectively as my main
> attack (with a mana stealing bow) up til now at Slvl 3 or 4, I think.
> It was great against Blood Raven and in the early going where I didn't
> have many other options to increase damage. So at least it's not
> completely useless, as suggested by many :-)
no, but its only useful very early on, don't waste more skill points in it.
you won't be able to use it once you're past the begining of the game.
Pierre
Pierre.
dann...@my-deja.com
playing my hardcore L43 Bowazon, I teamed with a Pally with max
concentration and hit a combat shrine. My strafe max damage was well
over 1000 points. So you can see that relative to strafe I would have
had little interest in picking up the 12 points.
In article <92vn83$c6s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Richard
dann...@my-deja.com wrote:
> At higher levels that +12 is a little meaningless. Last night while
> playing my hardcore L43 Bowazon, I teamed with a Pally with max
> concentration and hit a combat shrine. My strafe max damage was well
> over 1000 points. So you can see that relative to strafe I would have
> had little interest in picking up the 12 points.
Point well taken. What level was your strafe? Does that increase
damage by a percentage?
However, your example is a bit extreme, because of all the other
benefits you mentioned. What about for a more standard look? I was
checking out the guy who posted his hardcore L41 amazon whose weapon
did something like 28-68 damage; +12 is still a 20-40% improvement, and
again at no mana cost (leaving you free to save mana for other
attacks). With critical strike doing double damage every couple of
hits, its roughly the equivalent of +18 (30-60% increase). At the very
least, it's always better than a standard attack :-)
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just thought it made for
interesting discussion.
cah...@iname.com
I'm sorry my post was unclear and not well written. Strafe gives you a
5% per skill point increase on your bow damage. So if you have a
vanilla 10-50 Gothic bow and you put 20 points into strafe you get and
addition 10-50 points of damage and up to 43 targets get hit..
Per Arrow.
Think about that.
In one round of strafe you may let loose 20-30 arrows or more.
So even with a vanilla Gothic bow had you saved skill points from magic
arrow your damage increase over magic arrow are enormous. Then if you
have a good to great bow (90-150 max damage) the numbers get even more
mindboggling.
It is easily inconceivable to pick up 2000 extra hit points of damage
for the 11 mana of strafe. If you have any kind of mana steal at all,
the mana will be free also.
That's why the guides scoff at magic arrow. While it helps at low
levels, at higher levels you will be wishing you had those points back
for Valk or Strafe.
However, the intent of the game is to have fun. And if you play rarely
and don't plan on going very high, Magic Arrow is kind of neat in the
first few acts.
cah...@iname.com
I'm sorry my post was unclear and not well written. Strafe gives you a
5% per skill point increase on your bow damage. So if you have a
vanilla 10-50 Gothic bow and you put 20 points into strafe you get and
addition 10-50 points of damage and up to 43 targets get hit..
Per Arrow.
Think about that.
In one round of strafe you may let loose 20-30 arrows or more.
So even with a vanilla Gothic bow had you saved skill points from magic
arrow your damage increase over magic arrow are enormous. Then if you
have a good to great bow (90-150 max damage) the numbers get even more
mindboggling.
It is easily inconceivable to pick up 2000 extra hit points of damage
for the 11 mana of strafe. If you have any kind of mana steal at all,
the mana will be free also.
That's why the guides scoff at magic arrow. While it helps at low
levels, at higher levels you will be wishing you had those points back
for Valk or Strafe.
However, the intent of the game is to have fun. And if you play rarely
and don't plan on going very high, Magic Arrow is kind of neat in the
first few acts.
Richard
cah...@iname.com wrote:
> In one round of strafe you may let loose 20-30 arrows or more.
Thanks for clearing that up! It makes a lot more sense to me now.
You're right, I'm already wishing I could put more points into strafe.
The biggest frustration is I still I have a looonnnnng way to go before
I can even access it.
BTW, what attack or skill do you recommend investing in for the mid-
levels (Clvls 12-24) before you can get strafe?
jill
> benefits you mentioned. What about for a more standard look? I was
> checking out the guy who posted his hardcore L41 amazon whose weapon
> did something like 28-68 damage; +12 is still a 20-40% improvement, and
> again at no mana cost (leaving you free to save mana for other
> attacks). With critical strike doing double damage every couple of
> hits, its roughly the equivalent of +18 (30-60% increase). At the very
> least, it's always better than a standard attack :-)
Well, but to get to that 0 mana use in MA, one has to allot 12 skill
points. That's a lot of points, overall, for a skill that just doesn't
have the damage returns that other skills give for the same point
allocation.
IIRC, you have to give CS 10 points before you get above 50% chance.
This would mean that for a combined CS/MA attack to begin to be
anything like effective (high chance of hard hit at low mana cost), the
Zon will need to be at least at level 15, with no other points in any
other skills. My personal feeling is that it would be a bit of a
struggle to get there, not much return for it when you do, and not a
lot of goodies left in that bucket for the higher clvl.
> I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just thought it made for
> interesting discussion.
For sure.
jill
--
pericat-- USWest clvl19 Amazon
Mavican-- Open clvl32 Amazon
Bard-- Open clvl33 Paladin
Bernard-- Open clvl22 Barbarian
Tankgrrl-- Open clvl12 Amazon
PREDATOR
You may wish to reconsider going for Strafe. I say that cause I'm a
multi-shot supporter :) Even with the damage increase, you should be
doing more damage/second, vs crowds, with multishot than with strafe,
depending on the level (and therefore how many arrows you are shooting
with MS). While each target will take longer to take down, you will be
taking more of them down, and on top of that, MS often stuns your
enemies slightly, stopping them for an instant. MS also works much beter
with pierce.
MS is not as good as strafe against individual monsters or bosses
however. I personally am chosing guided arrow as my boss killer, because
it also is probably the best, IMO, PvP skill (I like to duel
occasionally, and it comes in handy when you have to fend off a PK).
Others will feel differently I'm sure. So what I would recommend (I did
this to make my mind up), is for you to download a trainer, create
yourself a high level character, give her items you think you might be
able to get for her by that level (whichever level you chose), and max
her bow skills. Now, test them out. Just go into hell/hell and play
around a bit, and see which you find more effective for your playing
style. You might want to go into an open B-net game aswell, to se how
each fares vs scaled up monsters HP (with more players), as often I
find, a skill that seems ok alone is useless when the monsters hit
points go up.
Christopher Childs
news:3A53C86B...@paradise.net.nz...
> You may wish to reconsider going for Strafe. I say that cause I'm a
> multi-shot supporter :) Even with the damage increase, you should be
> doing more damage/second, vs crowds, with multishot than with strafe,
> depending on the level (and therefore how many arrows you are shooting
> with MS). While each target will take longer to take down, you will be
> taking more of them down, and on top of that, MS often stuns your
> enemies slightly, stopping them for an instant. MS also works much beter
> with pierce.
I'd have to say Strafe works much better with pierce. Line your enemies up
(e.g. strafe through a narrow corridor) and 10 arrows would hit the first
target (example: 5 enemies, with your valk tagging along), with 50-60%
continuing on to the next guy in line.
MS does not do more dmg over time. Strafe is pretty much a guaranteed
Critical Strike in the aforementioned scenario, and with enemies bunching up
around a valk, it still does get more Pierce opportunities. Now, MS will
just keep you safer here, cause they might decide to go nail you and you
aren't locked in place by MS. I'd recommend both, because Strafe is still
much better for taking down small groups considering you'll pretty much
always be firing 2 arrows/target, and the dmg bonus.
-- Christopher Childs
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Nathan Engle
> "Richard" <rph...@my-deja.com> wrote
> > modifier, plus it (theoretically) always hits. So now you've got a
> > 100% free skill with a decent damage boost. If your bow was doing 20
> > damage
If my bow as a high level Amazon was only doing 20 points
of damage I'd find myself a better bow. Personally I prefer
multishot, doing a lot more than 20 points a pop and to as many
targets as I can get in the field of fire.
>, you just increased damage from every shot by 50%. Combined
> > with a very fast, powerful bow and a lot of critical strike, I would
> > imagine it could be a pretty decent skill.
> the biggest problem with MA is that it lacks crowd control. multishot,
> strafe, exploding, immolation, and freezing arrows all hit multiple targets.
> multishot and strafe also leech, so firing them continiously isn't a
> problem. even against a single monster though, magic arrow doesn't provide
> much of a damage boost. compare it to the other bow skills, the high level
> elemental arrows apply over 100 extra damage to multiple targets, and high
> level strafe will double your bow damage. compare that to MAs +19, that a
> gothic bow has 10-50 BASE damage. MA just can't compete.
> > As for me, I'd just like to say I've used it effectively as my main
> > attack (with a mana stealing bow) up til now at Slvl 3 or 4, I think.
> > It was great against Blood Raven and in the early going where I didn't
> > have many other options to increase damage. So at least it's not
> > completely useless, as suggested by many :-)
> no, but its only useful very early on, don't waste more skill points in it.
> you won't be able to use it once you're past the begining of the game.
I would have said that you *can* struggle along with
it, but there are just other things you need more.
--
Nathan Engle
Shop Steward Electron Juggler's Guild, Local #1
nen...@indiana.edu http://php.indiana.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"
cah...@iname.com
I always put a couple of points in multishot. Even though strafe is my
attack of choice, 3-5 points in multishot helps me hose down a room of
bad guys at the lower levels.
At the higher levels their are 3 major bow options, Multishot, Strafe
or freeze everything in sight. The fire side of the tree doesn't do
enough damage for my tastes.
As far as the real low levels, I tend to cheat a little and use my
first skill point in jab and go around with a spear and mana steal
until I get to level 14 and put on Vidala's set.
If you want to get to higher levels quickly, sometimes putting non
standard items on chars is the way to go. I have a Sorc that started
out bashing things with the hellforge hammer until she was high enough
level to use spells.
paul
its a bit like teeth or firebolt. after act 1 normal they laugh at it.
OK for emergencies (out of ammo) though.
paul x is the spam filter
Richard
paul...@xoptushome.com.au (paul) wrote:
>
> its a bit like teeth or firebolt. after act 1 normal they laugh at it.
> OK for emergencies (out of ammo) though.
Yeah, I kind of figured that even before I wrote the post. I'm still
using it as my primary attack for lack of anything much better (at
least it's better than standard arrows) at the moment (Clvl 13) but I
can already see it will soon run out of usefulness. Still, at lower
levels, if you're low on mana and/or arrows, it's a nice alternative
(coupled with mana steal).
But I'm still curious if anyone had experimented with it at high levels
just for the sake of experimentation. I suppose you could use a
trainer and check it out. But I'd be really interested to see a "real"
Amazon on Battlenet who had made it to high levels relying primarily on
Magic Arrow + Critical Strike, or some such combo.
PREDATOR
Christopher Childs wrote:
>
> "PREDATOR" <pred...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:3A53C86B...@paradise.net.nz...
> > You may wish to reconsider going for Strafe. I say that cause I'm a
> > multi-shot supporter :) Even with the damage increase, you should be
> > doing more damage/second, vs crowds, with multishot than with strafe,
> > depending on the level (and therefore how many arrows you are shooting
> > with MS). While each target will take longer to take down, you will be
> > taking more of them down, and on top of that, MS often stuns your
> > enemies slightly, stopping them for an instant. MS also works much beter
> > with pierce.
>
> I'd have to say Strafe works much better with pierce. Line your enemies up
> (e.g. strafe through a narrow corridor) and 10 arrows would hit the first
> target (example: 5 enemies, with your valk tagging along), with 50-60%
> continuing on to the next guy in line.
But consider a large crowd. Firing off 15 MS arrows, with 60% or so of
them continuing through the first wave to the next, and so forth.
Providing there are enough monsters, lets just say you do on average 200
dmg/arrow (about what I do with roughly 180 dex and a 20-114 gothic),
not accoutning for CS. Lets also say you've got 90% chance of hitting
the monsters (roughly what I have, as a lvl 47 Ama).
We'll round down the number that hit to 13, though it'd be more like 14
with that % to hit. You would do, right then, with that MS, 2600 dmg.
Then, 60% go through to the next wave. That's 8 arrows, doing a further
1600 dmg. And so forth.
With one SIAS item (eg goldwrap, twitchthrow, or gloves) and fast attack
speed on your Gothic, you'd get roughly 1.9 attacks/second. So vs that
crowd, for only one piercing (that is, assuming the pierced arrows dont
pierce again at all), you would do 7980 dmg/second, again, not acounting
for CS (which I personally have at 65% chance of dbl dmg).
Now, I'm not exactly certain what the arrows/second rate of strafe is
(seems roughly like 4/second, but I havnt used it extensively), but even
with each arrow doing +100% dmg (which, for my current damage, would
take me up to roughly an average of 262 dmg/arrow if I havnt stuffed up
the dmg calculation, with two arrows/shot and 4/second that'd be 2095
dmg/second, not accounting for CS. Of those 8 arrows fired, with 90%
chance to hit, just above 7 would hit, meaning it would actually be 1886
dmg applied to enemies. Then, with 60% chance of piercing, 4 1/3 would
pierce, we'll round that to 4, which asuming they all hit gives another
1048 dmg. So that would be 2934 Dmg/second with one piercing. Bear in
mind I've prolly made some mistakes throughout that. And strafe might be
more like 5 arrows/second, which would give about 3930/second, again, I
dont know the fire rate exactly.
> MS does not do more dmg over time. Strafe is pretty much a guaranteed
> Critical Strike in the aforementioned scenario, and with enemies bunching up
> around a valk, it still does get more Pierce opportunities.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying Strafe is more likely to get
CS. Either attack should have the same percentage chance of doing dbl
dmg at any given level.
Now, MS will
> just keep you safer here, cause they might decide to go nail you and you
> aren't locked in place by MS. I'd recommend both, because Strafe is still
> much better for taking down small groups considering you'll pretty much
> always be firing 2 arrows/target, and the dmg bonus.
Against small groups, you would be doing more dmg/second with Strafe.
But as the group increases in numbers, MS far surpasses Strafe. That,
combined with the new, effectively lower range, the strafe lock, and
multishot stunning groups often, and the ability to hit things off
screen (and out-range oblivion knights) means that if you have to chose
one or the other, I'd definately advise you to go with MS. But using
both would probably be a good idea, unless you are into duelling where I
would recommend those strafe points go into GA until that is at lvl 20.
And MS is also a better duelling skill I find, when in free-for-alls.
Just remember to apologise to those you killed who didnt have their
bodies and you couldnt tell couse you were firing from off the screen :)
PREDATOR
<snip>
The other thing I forgot which drastically reduces Strafe efectiveness
vs crowds is tactics regarding the strafe lock. With multishot you can
run and fire in an instant, and keep running, and continue doing this
until the crowd is dead. Strafeazons are aware that if they strafe, they
will be stuck (for as much as 43 attacks), and so they need to run for
longer to get a larger distance, and are more reliant on their Valks. So
the result is less Strafe firing overall, compared to MS. Which of
course directly effects damage/second. At least this is my experience
with offline testing.
dann...@my-deja.com
Well, I can attest to the joys of strafelock. While playing my first
Bowazon, I had finally maxed strafe at 20, and was doing pretty nice
damage with my imbued gothic. My Valk had quite a few venom lords,
corpse spitters, and baby spitters around it so I cast an additional
Decoy to get additional arrows. Because the Pack was so big, I moved
closer to get more fire power. Decoy poofed, the pack moved at me, and
I was surrounded by the pack before I was out of Strafe.
Bye-Bye L 43 Bowazon.
Bye Bye Bowazon stuff (I generally don't set loot to add an additional
hardcore element) including a recently acquired Manald that I hadn't
muled off and my 98 Gothic and the many rares.
Adios to my Hardcore USEAST ladder slot.
I do have a new L12 Hardcore Bowazon (Arrowsmith) on the way. She is
at the imbue quest and 2 levels away from her Vidala's set., then the
Massive Bow of the Bat, then the Cho-Ku-Nu and finally my back up
Gothic Bow. She also has access to 2 imbuable gothics, so at least the
hand me downs will help. She already has 3 points in Multishot, and I
am undecided whether or not to go the multishot path or the Strafe
path. There are good and legitimate arguments for both paths, and I
will probably make the choice tonight.
Bob I.
clearing out pockets of monsters or hallway areas and Strafe for the
wandering scattered ones. Strafe is handy in the Outer Steppes, City
of the dead flayer jungle and the like. With a valk and decoy you pick
up 2 more arrows per monster using strafe and you don't have to aim in
any particular direction. If you party with a necro you see a line
from your bow to the monsters because of all the added arrows. It is
impressive, it is just a solid line consisting of arrows. The downside
of course is the strafe lock problem. My recommendation is a couple of
points in each and then add as you see fit.
BTW the strafe releases the trapped souls tied to the posts in the
Outer Steppes so the Valk won't wander around stabbing them all the
time.
AndrooK2
using multishot, I run out of ammo FAST w/o magic arrow. I also only needed 4
pts in it, as I have mana leech. So I think its worthwhile to put a couple pts
into.
ald
<pred...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Way late again, but a few comments interspersed:
>But consider a large crowd.
First nit, a good Strafazon doesn't get into the middle of a large
crowd very often unless they're considerably lower in level than her
;-)
>Firing off 15 MS arrows, with 60% or so of
>them continuing through the first wave to the next, and so forth.
>Providing there are enough monsters, lets just say you do on average 200
>dmg/arrow (about what I do with roughly 180 dex and a 20-114 gothic),
>not accoutning for CS. Lets also say you've got 90% chance of hitting
>the monsters (roughly what I have, as a lvl 47 Ama).
>
>We'll round down the number that hit to 13, though it'd be more like 14
>with that % to hit. You would do, right then, with that MS, 2600 dmg.
>Then, 60% go through to the next wave. That's 8 arrows, doing a further
>1600 dmg. And so forth.
>
>With one SIAS item (eg goldwrap, twitchthrow, or gloves) and fast attack
>speed on your Gothic, you'd get roughly 1.9 attacks/second. So vs that
>crowd, for only one piercing (that is, assuming the pierced arrows dont
>pierce again at all), you would do 7980 dmg/second, again, not acounting
>for CS (which I personally have at 65% chance of dbl dmg).
>
This theory *would* work if you could aim MS at the 15 different
monsters you're talking about, like you can with Strafe.
Unfortunately, the way MS works, you can only aim it at *1* monster,
and hope that there are enough critters around it so that the other 14
hit a couple targets. In my (admittedly limited) experience, this
doesn't work too well.
>Now, I'm not exactly certain what the arrows/second rate of strafe is
>(seems roughly like 4/second, but I havnt used it extensively), but even
>with each arrow doing +100% dmg (which, for my current damage, would
>take me up to roughly an average of 262 dmg/arrow if I havnt stuffed up
>the dmg calculation, with two arrows/shot and 4/second that'd be 2095
>dmg/second, not accounting for CS. Of those 8 arrows fired, with 90%
>chance to hit, just above 7 would hit, meaning it would actually be 1886
>dmg applied to enemies. Then, with 60% chance of piercing, 4 1/3 would
>pierce, we'll round that to 4, which asuming they all hit gives another
>1048 dmg. So that would be 2934 Dmg/second with one piercing. Bear in
>mind I've prolly made some mistakes throughout that. And strafe might be
>more like 5 arrows/second, which would give about 3930/second, again, I
>dont know the fire rate exactly.
>
4 per second? Only if there are only 4 critters around. 10-20 in a
large crowd per second would be more like what I've experienced, but
this isn't the situation where a Bowazon's strengths are maximized.
Optimum for a Bowazon is having about 3-5 critters on screen, 'cause
at that point you're getting off about 2 rounds per second, and most
critters can't live through two rounds (even in Act 4/Hell, with
Strafe maxed).
Part of it *is* adopting your playing style to using Strafe. I try not
to wade into large packs, that's what the Valk is for ;-) Like I said,
the optimal situation I'm looking for is for her to draw 3-5 critters,
but anything up to at least 10 is workable, I'll still get off about a
round a second and the ones I hit (most of them) will stay stunlocked
(well, kind of, IIRC 2-6 cold damage helps keep them stunlocked) long
enough for the next shot to polish them off. This is dependent on
monster grouping, of course, but a Strafazon is looking to have
everything coming from one direction, and can usually clear out
anything along the way to keep it that way.
>
>> MS does not do more dmg over time. Strafe is pretty much a guaranteed
>> Critical Strike in the aforementioned scenario, and with enemies bunching up
>> around a valk, it still does get more Pierce opportunities.
>
>I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying Strafe is more likely to get
>CS. Either attack should have the same percentage chance of doing dbl
>dmg at any given level.
>
Yeah, but with MS in the situation you're talking about, you're only
guaranteed one hit, and the regular odds on getting CS. With Strafe,
you're guaranteed (assuming 90% to hit, your example) 13 or 14 hits,
with the odds against getting at least one CS dropping to almost
impossible, especially with the high levels of CS discussed in this
thread.
> Now, MS will
>> just keep you safer here, cause they might decide to go nail you and you
>> aren't locked in place by MS. I'd recommend both, because Strafe is still
>> much better for taking down small groups considering you'll pretty much
>> always be firing 2 arrows/target, and the dmg bonus.
>
>Against small groups, you would be doing more dmg/second with Strafe.
>But as the group increases in numbers, MS far surpasses Strafe. That,
>combined with the new, effectively lower range, the strafe lock, and
>multishot stunning groups often, and the ability to hit things off
>screen (and out-range oblivion knights) means that if you have to chose
>one or the other, I'd definately advise you to go with MS. But using
>both would probably be a good idea, unless you are into duelling where I
>would recommend those strafe points go into GA until that is at lvl 20.
>And MS is also a better duelling skill I find, when in free-for-alls.
>Just remember to apologise to those you killed who didnt have their
>bodies and you couldnt tell couse you were firing from off the screen :)
The lower range for Strafe is *only* in auto-targetting, playing SP
now I can still hit a critter half a map away (no exaggeration, as in
3-4 screens away) with Strafe if I already have him targetted. At
level 75, Sis has yet to die due to Strafe-lock. Of course, she's been
in situations where a Strafe probably *would* have gotten her killed,
but those are the situations where she's backpedalling, trying to get
less critters on screen. Note: These situations don't come up often
enough for her to even consider wearing any of the faster walk/run
increased stamina boots, she prefers the rares that she has that add
fire and lightning resistance to additions to dex and replenish life,
and maybe one other modifier I've forgotten, but even before she got
those she'd discarded the uniques with the faster run, she doesn't
have to run that often. And, as I stated above, Strafe stunlocks
critters and, since it's doing twice the damage (actually 2.15, since
I'm running with it at level 23), it's actually twice as likely to
stunlock them.
IMNSHO, if you have to choose one skill, it would be Strafe. Of
course, as I said somewhere up there, I don't have much experience
with MS, and can't seem to get it to work well for me. In playing the
8-player mods, there are a *lot* of hit points to take out between
level 8 and 24, but I still can't justify to myself adding a second
point to MS, even though I'm forced to use it quite often.
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
CotSRSig #16
Tales of the Boojum
I've been a big Magic Arrow fan myself. I've been playing my Amazon
like a Rogue and, after the original Diablo, I couldn't abide by this
running out of arrows business. The idea of once again having an
unlimited supply of arrows has been a driving force and I've gotten MA
up to 0.7 Mana per shot. With 38 or 42 percent of those shots doing
double damage, she's a pretty tough girl. Very nice.
HOWEVER... She was not equipped to deal with Duriel, and that's all
there was to it. She was lucky to draw only a single fatality in that
fight (Lucky because I clicked the Town Portal Tome instead of the
Rejuv potion I was aiming for). It's possible to Magic Arrow Duriel to
death without getting killed if you have a lot of potions and are able
to stand there and get pounded until one of you drops. You'd be plum
outta luck if he had even a single minion though. I'll be reassessing
my strategy for Act III. Still, up until now, it's been good. Duriel
was her first fatality.
Just to add to the bit about Mana Stealing: One of the other cool
things about Mana and Life Stealing attacks is that you can tell when
you've hit an opponent well outside the screen. My Amazon's avoided a
lot of tough fights that way, including against the Summoner in the
Arcane Sanctuary.
--
--Steve
Read it for free at Tales of the Boojum
http://theboojum.com/Tales/
Ingo Jankowski
>
> In article <92vn83$c6s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Richard <rph...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > OK,I'm just a novice bowazon (lev 11) and I'm having fun experimenting
> > with her. All the guides and comments I've read (aside from the
> > official guide) completely dismiss the Magic Arrow. I can definitely
> > understand their points, as there are a number of great skills down
> the
> > chain. However, I wonder if anyone out there has experimented with
> > taking this skill to its upper levels. I think by level 13 or
> > something like that it costs 0 mana and gives you a +12 damage
> > modifier, plus it (theoretically) always hits. So now you've got a
> > 100% free skill with a decent damage boost. If your bow was doing 20
> > damage, you just increased damage from every shot by 50%. Combined
> > with a very fast, powerful bow and a lot of critical strike, I would
> > imagine it could be a pretty decent skill.
So if you have a 20 damage bow (which is fine for the first one or two
acts), the +12 damage is sure nice. But the added damage doesn't factor
in with your dexterity bonus. So, having a 20 damage bow, and 100 dex,
you'd do 20*(100+100)/100+12 = 52 damage. The same damage could be
reached with a 26 damage bow without magic arrow (MA). At higher levels
of dex it becomes gradually worse. With higher damage bows it becomes
less important, too.
with a level 13 MA, you do +12 damage on one arrow.
with a level 13 multishot, you shoot 14 arrows. If only 2 of them hit,
you already do more damage.
with a level 13 strafe, you attack up to 29 targets, each with +65
*percent* damage.
See why people usually don't look at MA?
As for the arrow thing: I usually find way more arrows than I need. I
use MS as main attack (only one arrow used per MS - I *think* with
strafe you end up using an arrow for each target, but I am not sure).
The ony thing that bothers me sometimes is the space that these arrows
use. I usually have 500-1500 arrows with me, because whenever I see a
quiver of arrows on the ground, I pick it up. And when I try to pick
something else (which usually fails due to the arrows ;)) I begin
throwing them away.
And should you ever run out of arrows, well, a TP costs next to nothing.
> > So at least it's not
> > completely useless, as suggested by many :-)
Sure, it is not, but later you will regret having spent the points when
you really really need them. For skills that are just way better.
> Just to add to the bit about Mana Stealing: One of the other cool
> things about Mana and Life Stealing attacks is that you can tell when
> you've hit an opponent well outside the screen. My Amazon's avoided a
> lot of tough fights that way, including against the Summoner in the
> Arcane Sanctuary.
Thats right... the summoner is pretty weak... Once fired a couple MSs in
the rough direction (when I didn't know yet that this was the summoner
was at this end)... suddenly heard my 'zon talk about killing mages...
must have been hit by a stray shot. :)
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>As for the arrow thing: I usually find way more arrows than I need. I
>use MS as main attack (only one arrow used per MS - I *think* with
>strafe you end up using an arrow for each target, but I am not sure).
Nope. One arrow for those 29 targets ;-)
Ingo Jankowski
>
> On Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:19:48 +1300, PREDATOR
> <pred...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Way late again, but a few comments interspersed:
>
> >But consider a large crowd.
>
> First nit, a good Strafazon doesn't get into the middle of a large
> crowd very often unless they're considerably lower in level than her
> ;-)
Multishozon doesn't even need to have her enemies on the screen at all.
With a good enough mana leech, you can even shoot blind, only aiming by
your mana/life leech animation.
[snipped MS calc]
> >We'll round down the number that hit to 13, though it'd be more like 14
> >with that % to hit. You would do, right then, with that MS, 2600 dmg.
Personally, I don't think there is much sense to go for more than 7-10
arrows per MS. Really large crowds are rare, and in most cases, you can
"serialize" those, eating them up only 5-10 at a time. When MS'ing, I
usually score 3-5 hits, with a "normal" ditribution of monsters; if
tightly packed, that gets better due to pierce.
> Unfortunately, the way MS works, you can only aim it at *1* monster,
> and hope that there are enough critters around it so that the other 14
> hit a couple targets. In my (admittedly limited) experience, this
> doesn't work too well.
With MS, you can aim at 2 targets at least, since you have two
parameters: a direction (target one) and the spread of the arrows (which
you can control in a way that, for instance, the leftmost arrow will hit
the second target). With a little practice, that works quite well.
Actually, I usually aim for up to 3 targets, or at a crowd as a whole.
Works well.
[Strafe]
> >Of those 8 arrows fired, with 90%
> >chance to hit, just above 7 would hit,
Does strafe guarantee a hit? with lots of monsters moving orthogonally
to my line of fire (in the sewers of Lut, for instance, or the shamans),
I would miss a lot of monsters, whereas I always hit them with MS.
> Part of it *is* adopting your playing style to using Strafe. I try not
> to wade into large packs, that's what the Valk is for ;-) Like I said,
> the optimal situation I'm looking for is for her to draw 3-5 critters,
> but anything up to at least 10 is workable, I'll still get off about a
> round a second and the ones I hit (most of them) will stay stunlocked
> (well, kind of, IIRC 2-6 cold damage helps keep them stunlocked) long
> enough for the next shot to polish them off.
This is almost the same tactics I use with MS... let them cluster around
the Valk (the tighter the cluster, te more likely an arrow hits; even if
it passes a monster, there is more likely to be one behind it; same for
pierce), and shower them with arrows. Eye of Etlich really helps here.
> This is dependent on
> monster grouping, of course, but a Strafazon is looking to have
> everything coming from one direction, and can usually clear out
> anything along the way to keep it that way.
With strafe, if you have all your enemies in a line, all your arrows
will hit the first monster, which is nice. With MS, only one arrow will
hit a particular monster.
> >> MS does not do more dmg over time. Strafe is pretty much a guaranteed
> >> Critical Strike in the aforementioned scenario, and with enemies bunching up
> >> around a valk, it still does get more Pierce opportunities.
Hm... Having a level 6 or 7 MS, there isn't that much to put points into
other than strafe or Valk. I am not a big fan of strafe (yet), but I
begin putting my spare points here. I think it may help against bosses
or champions, especially with a Valk, Decoy and a Hireling.
I don't know yet if I will put too many points into Valk - I really have
a mana problem. Having CS at 58%, Penetrate at +85%, Pierce at 42 (not
sure), what else could I possibly put points into? Dodge/Avoid?
> >I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying Strafe is more likely to get
> >CS. Either attack should have the same percentage chance of doing dbl
> >dmg at any given level.
He meant, getting +100% damage (=double damage) with a slvl 20 strafe is
like a 100% chance of doing double damage. Of course, the "real" CS is
calculated after that.
> >Against small groups, you would be doing more dmg/second with Strafe.
> >But as the group increases in numbers, MS far surpasses Strafe. That,
> >combined with the new, effectively lower range, the strafe lock, and
> >multishot stunning groups often, and the ability to hit things off
> >screen (and out-range oblivion knights) means that if you have to chose
> >one or the other, I'd definately advise you to go with MS. But using
> >both would probably be a good idea,
Perhaps it is a question of your personal taste. I like MS best, most of
all because of its range and the ability to shoot a barrage of arrows in
a direction where I suspect something. When opening a door, I usually
jump back, fire a couple of salvoes, and slip through right behind my
valk. If there is an army behind the door, I can usually stop everything
from coming out. The fact that MS only hits monsters with one arrow each
can even be a plus, when you encounter large groups of skeletons and
want to hit the raising monster behind them.
> In playing the
> 8-player mods, there are a *lot* of hit points to take out between
> level 8 and 24, but I still can't justify to myself adding a second
> point to MS, even though I'm forced to use it quite often.
Ooops. MS with just 1 point in it is pretty useless in my eyes. It
becomes handy with 5-6 arrows, and has its sweet spot between 7-10
(IMVHO).
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Same for Multishozons, I guess. The more distance, the better. A
>Multishozon doesn't even need to have her enemies on the screen at all.
>With a good enough mana leech, you can even shoot blind, only aiming by
>your mana/life leech animation.
>
With Strafe, I was "shooting blind" until Sis was about level 60. It
was then that I figured out I could actually aim it, as well as use
the auto-target ;-)
>With MS, you can aim at 2 targets at least, since you have two
>parameters: a direction (target one) and the spread of the arrows (which
>you can control in a way that, for instance, the leftmost arrow will hit
>the second target). With a little practice, that works quite well.
>Actually, I usually aim for up to 3 targets, or at a crowd as a whole.
>Works well.
>
Ok, this is apparently the part of using the skill that I haven't
mastered. Now, playing the Fusion mod, my poor level 9 Bowazon has
just gotten MS and has another 21 levels before she gets Strafe, so I
may have to work on that ;-)
>Does strafe guarantee a hit? with lots of monsters moving orthogonally
>to my line of fire (in the sewers of Lut, for instance, or the shamans),
>I would miss a lot of monsters, whereas I always hit them with MS.
>
Guarantee? No, but neither does MS. I'd say if you're hitting the
targetted monster with MS, you're going to with Strafe, plus have a
90% chance (again, using the current example, Sis's is actually about
86% against level 75 monsters) of hitting *every* other monster on the
screen.
>This is almost the same tactics I use with MS... let them cluster around
>the Valk (the tighter the cluster, te more likely an arrow hits; even if
>it passes a monster, there is more likely to be one behind it; same for
>pierce), and shower them with arrows. Eye of Etlich really helps here.
>
Hmm, I'm still desperately trying to gamble that Eye, although Sis's
Fletcher's Am of 1-3 Frost is about second best, I guess ;-) And
again, even here, you point out an area where Strafe is better. For a
Strafazon, it *is* still better if the pack is tightly bunched, for
the piercing reason you mentioned as well as the fact that a tighter
group means you can get off the next shot quicker, but no matter *how*
spread out the pack is, you're going to hit about 86% of the targets
on screen.
>With strafe, if you have all your enemies in a line, all your arrows
>will hit the first monster, which is nice. With MS, only one arrow will
>hit a particular monster.
>
Actually, not all in my experience, unless they stay in a straight
line, and I haven't seen that, but about 50% will hit the lead
monster, with the others still hitting the ones milling around behind
him. If you fire MS at a group in a line, what happens, the first
arrow hits and all the others miss? I'm asking here not trying to make
a point, but because I really don't know ;-)
>Hm... Having a level 6 or 7 MS, there isn't that much to put points into
>other than strafe or Valk. I am not a big fan of strafe (yet), but I
>begin putting my spare points here. I think it may help against bosses
>or champions, especially with a Valk, Decoy and a Hireling.
>
>I don't know yet if I will put too many points into Valk - I really have
>a mana problem. Having CS at 58%, Penetrate at +85%, Pierce at 42 (not
>sure), what else could I possibly put points into? Dodge/Avoid?
>
I was worried about the mana problem with a high level Valk, until I
got my Frosties. Between that and her Stone, Sis can now cast a level
20 Valk and have her mana ball only drop a little more than halfway.
Dodge/Avoid wouldn't be a *bad* place for skill points, Sis is making
up for a little neglect in those along the way now, but I would want
to get Pierce a little closer to 50% myself before I worried about
that ;-)
>Perhaps it is a question of your personal taste. I like MS best, most of
>all because of its range and the ability to shoot a barrage of arrows in
>a direction where I suspect something. When opening a door, I usually
>jump back, fire a couple of salvoes, and slip through right behind my
>valk. If there is an army behind the door, I can usually stop everything
>from coming out. The fact that MS only hits monsters with one arrow each
>can even be a plus, when you encounter large groups of skeletons and
>want to hit the raising monster behind them.
>
And I like Strafe *much* better, for the extra damage and the
auto-targetting, so I don't have to worry about which direction I
suspect something, just fire blind and if there's anything on screen
it will either be dead or at least halfway to being dead. I use the
volley after opening a door tactic at times, too, but there's nothing
left that was targettable by the time I step through the door.
Definitely a matter of personal taste, I'm as unlikely to convince you
to switch as you are to convince me, but I enjoy learning more about
both skills through discussion ;-)
>Ooops. MS with just 1 point in it is pretty useless in my eyes. It
>becomes handy with 5-6 arrows, and has its sweet spot between 7-10
>(IMVHO).
Agreed, and while *I*'d argue that even at level 4 (with the
previously mentioned Fletcher's Am and Stone, as well as her Tarn)
it's still pretty useless, it at least meets your minimum requirements
above ;-)
Ingo Jankowski
>
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:11:44 +0100, Ingo Jankowski
> <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>
> >Same for Multishozons, I guess. The more distance, the better. A
> >Multishozon doesn't even need to have her enemies on the screen at all.
> >With a good enough mana leech, you can even shoot blind, only aiming by
> >your mana/life leech animation.
> >
>
> With Strafe, I was "shooting blind" until Sis was about level 60. It
> was then that I figured out I could actually aim it, as well as use
> the auto-target ;-)
That was not quite my point... What I meant was shooting at targets a
good way off screen. Take, f.i., flayer jungle. When I ran (fastest
boots), I often got right into those little guys, and a hit really
hurts. So what I do, is basically push a wave of arrows in front of me,
so that everything I encounter in the next few frames is either killed
or chilled, and can be taken care of easily. You know the formations of
the jungle, and know where to expect the nasties. Easy going, there. I
found that tactic really helps, because those flayers are quite quick.
If I had to wait until they appeared on my screen, they'd already passed
half of it before I could react. If, in that situation, I would begin to
strafe, firing one arrow after another, a monster might be able to hit
me.
In other situations where you suspect a monster somewhere off-screen,
but don't actually see him (always good to have some distance between
you and Hephasto, f.i.), you just aim a rough direction, and the leech
animation will show if you hit.
> >Does strafe guarantee a hit?
> Guarantee? No, but neither does MS. I'd say if you're hitting the
> targetted monster with MS, you're going to with Strafe, plus have a
> 90% chance (again, using the current example, Sis's is actually about
> 86% against level 75 monsters) of hitting *every* other monster on the
> screen.
When a monster moves towards my Valk, I tend to miss it with normal
attack, when it moves across my line of fire (and out of the way of the
arrow). Would I miss it with strafe as well?
MS doesn't guarantee a hit, but one of arrows is very likely to hit - if
the monster moves out of the way of one arrow, it moves right into the
way of the next.
> Hmm, I'm still desperately trying to gamble that Eye, although Sis's
> Fletcher's Am of 1-3 Frost is about second best, I guess ;-)
9 seconds, hehe. Makes 4.5 in NM, but still... With IA (my left attack),
you can "park" a few monsters, take out the rest, and then finish the
"parked" ones (very nice for leapers).
> And again, even here, you point out an area where Strafe is better.
You're welcome, sir. For quite a lot applications, strafe may be better,
meybe even for the core of what I use MS for. I just *like* MS better.
:)
> For a
> Strafazon, it *is* still better if the pack is tightly bunched, for
> the piercing reason you mentioned as well as the fact that a tighter
> group means you can get off the next shot quicker, but no matter *how*
> spread out the pack is, you're going to hit about 86% of the targets
> on screen.
Well, I think tightly packed bunches are better for everyone. Nobody
wants nasties approaching from every angle. :)
As I like my monsters best when they are just on the edge of the screen,
I just don't trust strafing that much. Think that there was something
moving at the visual perimeter? 2-3 salvoes in the direction, and then
walk in and look if you find something blueish creeping around. Or
collect your bounty.
> If you fire MS at a group in a line, what happens, the first
> arrow hits and all the others miss? I'm asking here not trying to make
> a point, but because I really don't know ;-)
If they form a perfect line, yes, only one arrow hits (without pierce).
In that case, you make a step to the side, and fire a tight pack of
arrows
along the line; That way, you have a small angle to the line and can hit
them all.
> I was worried about the mana problem with a high level Valk, until I
> got my Frosties. Between that and her Stone, Sis can now cast a level
> 20 Valk and have her mana ball only drop a little more than halfway.
I have Frosties, too. But this being my first realm char, I rely more on
Chance Guards... still have to find all the stuff to mule away.
And 1000 Gold coins from a Flayer is nice... I need some more good rare
rings, and gold is a way to get them.
> Dodge/Avoid wouldn't be a *bad* place for skill points, Sis is making
> up for a little neglect in those along the way now, but I would want
> to get Pierce a little closer to 50% myself before I worried about
> that ;-)
My 42% Pierce pierces 100% when fighting uniques with noone else around
;)
I haven't tested FA/Pierce yet, simply because I usually MS aiming at
nothing particular, holding the mousebutton down, and then directing the
stream where I want it to go. No need for FA so far.
> Definitely a matter of personal taste, I'm as unlikely to convince you
> to switch as you are to convince me, but I enjoy learning more about
> both skills through discussion ;-)
No need to convince anyone here :) I'll probably max strafe, if only for
the reason that there is not much else to put points into, except Valk.
So sooner or later, I'll probably end up using strafe primarily. Time
will tell. At least, I am open-minded enough to try both, even if that
means to "waste" 5 skill points here or there.
> >Ooops. MS with just 1 point in it is pretty useless in my eyes. It
> >becomes handy with 5-6 arrows, and has its sweet spot between 7-10
> >(IMVHO).
>
> Agreed, and while *I*'d argue that even at level 4 (with the
> previously mentioned Fletcher's Am and Stone, as well as her Tarn)
> it's still pretty useless, it at least meets your minimum requirements
> above ;-)
Hm, well. I have seven, and don't feel like spending more, because the
cost increases whereas the return of added points diminishes. I rarely
have more than 5 monsters to hit, so 7 arrows are enough; the second
wave will hit if the first didn't. If there are more than 5 monsters,
you usually fight the 5 in the first line, which, stunned and chilled
hold back the rest until the first row is finfished or they get hit by
missing/piercing arrows.
More than 7 arrows is a luxury: more comfortable, but not THAT necessary
;)
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>That was not quite my point... What I meant was shooting at targets a
>good way off screen. Take, f.i., flayer jungle. When I ran (fastest
>boots), I often got right into those little guys, and a hit really
>hurts. So what I do, is basically push a wave of arrows in front of me,
>so that everything I encounter in the next few frames is either killed
>or chilled, and can be taken care of easily. You know the formations of
>the jungle, and know where to expect the nasties. Easy going, there. I
>found that tactic really helps, because those flayers are quite quick.
>If I had to wait until they appeared on my screen, they'd already passed
>half of it before I could react. If, in that situation, I would begin to
>strafe, firing one arrow after another, a monster might be able to hit
>me.
>
Agreed, in Version 1.04. However, in 1.03 and, I imagine, once I
upgrade to 1.05 (if I upgrade now SisFusion will have kittens!) this
was not much of a problem. Strafe doesn't go as far off screen as MS,
but it *did* target anything on screen, and far enough off screen so
that I've taken out many a boss without ever seeing them. I'm kind of
looking forward to that again, the AoE for Strafe in 1.04 made it
almost a dead even trade with fixing the bow bug :-(
>In other situations where you suspect a monster somewhere off-screen,
>but don't actually see him (always good to have some distance between
>you and Hephasto, f.i.), you just aim a rough direction, and the leech
>animation will show if you hit.
>
Again, same with Strafe, only you don't have to aim at all ;-)
>When a monster moves towards my Valk, I tend to miss it with normal
>attack, when it moves across my line of fire (and out of the way of the
>arrow). Would I miss it with strafe as well?
>
Probably :-( The difference is in the extra arrow you get from the
Valk with Strafe, it would appear to me (although, of course, I could
be wrong) that when you're shooting at a pack, that extra arrow (and I
only have *real* experience with one extra arrow, when I'm throwing up
a decoy for the second extra arrow I rarely have time to study where
it's going) usually comes out as a shot at the targetted critter at
both the beginning and end of the strafe, so I would say you have
twice as much of a chance to hit him, but twice nothing is nothing ;-(
>MS doesn't guarantee a hit, but one of arrows is very likely to hit - if
>the monster moves out of the way of one arrow, it moves right into the
>way of the next.
>
Ok, there you probably have a better chance of hitting him with *one*
arrow with MS, but a better chance of hitting the targetted monster
with *two* arrows with Strafe, and of course doing the extra damage
that Strafe does.
>> Hmm, I'm still desperately trying to gamble that Eye, although Sis's
>> Fletcher's Am of 1-3 Frost is about second best, I guess ;-)
>9 seconds, hehe. Makes 4.5 in NM, but still... With IA (my left attack),
>you can "park" a few monsters, take out the rest, and then finish the
>"parked" ones (very nice for leapers).
>
??? You lost me here. Are we talking about the time that critters are
frozen with the Eye? I've yet to find one with any character, so I'm
not sure. IA as in Ice Arrow, right? I use that as the left attack,
too, although with the cold damage from the Am and the Frosties, I
don't usually have to resort to left-clicking to park them, just using
Strafe I can usually freeze *all* of the monsters until the next
attack hits them ;-)
>> And again, even here, you point out an area where Strafe is better.
>You're welcome, sir. For quite a lot applications, strafe may be better,
>meybe even for the core of what I use MS for. I just *like* MS better.
>:)
>
Understood, I'm the same way with Strafe. I know I've been in
situations where MS would have worked better, but I like Strafe too
much to switch ;-)
>Well, I think tightly packed bunches are better for everyone. Nobody
>wants nasties approaching from every angle. :)
Yeah, but if you *do* run into this situation, Strafe is much better
to handle it ;-)
>As I like my monsters best when they are just on the edge of the screen,
>I just don't trust strafing that much. Think that there was something
>moving at the visual perimeter? 2-3 salvoes in the direction, and then
>walk in and look if you find something blueish creeping around. Or
>collect your bounty.
>
Actually, now that 1.05 is out, Strafe should once again work just as
well if not better in this situation. I like my monsters just on the
edge of the screen, too. During 1.04, this was a major pain with
Strafe, since many times I'd end up only shooting at one monster,
while I could see several others on-screen (I even ran into one
situation where I was shooting at a monster that moved off screen,
kept firing at him but never picked up the Horror that came up from
the other side of the screen, moved right next to me, and started
thumping on me. Once I killed the off-screen monster, it was easy to
pick up and dispose of the one that was on screen. Good thing it was a
Horror and not an Oblivion Knight, huh? ;-) ). This should have been
fixed again with 1.05, though ;-)
>> If you fire MS at a group in a line, what happens, the first
>> arrow hits and all the others miss? I'm asking here not trying to make
>> a point, but because I really don't know ;-)
>If they form a perfect line, yes, only one arrow hits (without pierce).
>In that case, you make a step to the side, and fire a tight pack of
>arrows
>along the line; That way, you have a small angle to the line and can hit
>them all.
>
Ah, ok, in the same situation I would just continue Strafing. As I
said, with Strafe, about half of the arrows would hit the front guy,
while the other half would target the critters behind him. Continue
this until the front guy dies (one shot in a solo game, several in an
8-player), then target the one behind him, lather, rinse, repeat ;-)
>> I was worried about the mana problem with a high level Valk, until I
>> got my Frosties. Between that and her Stone, Sis can now cast a level
>> 20 Valk and have her mana ball only drop a little more than halfway.
>I have Frosties, too. But this being my first realm char, I rely more on
>Chance Guards... still have to find all the stuff to mule away.
>And 1000 Gold coins from a Flayer is nice... I need some more good rare
>rings, and gold is a way to get them.
>
Yeah, Sis stashed the Frosties for a *long* time after she found them.
Actually, that's not quite true, she used them for a while, *then*
stashed them for a long while, then switched back to using them when
she started worrying about mana. Now she won't even consider giving
them up, but not because of the mana, but because of the extra cold
damage. I doubt that I'm going to be able to talk her out of playing
the 8-player enhanced mod, and as Siseight-enhanced and SisFusion are
proving once again, in situations where the monsters have that kind of
hit points, you can't beat cold damage. That's also why Sis is hunting
so desperately for an Eye, it's the only improvement she can see
(other than getting a +2 to skills cold damage am, like *that* will
ever drop ;-) ) that would make her give up her Fletcher's Am of Frost
;-)
>> Dodge/Avoid wouldn't be a *bad* place for skill points, Sis is making
>> up for a little neglect in those along the way now, but I would want
>> to get Pierce a little closer to 50% myself before I worried about
>> that ;-)
>My 42% Pierce pierces 100% when fighting uniques with noone else around
>;)
When have you been playing with Ken? ;-) (Sorry, you probably won't
get that. Ken Noone used to post in here, the running joke (during D1
days) was that whenever anyone forgot the space and used his name
instead of "no one", they owed him an elixir of his choice) Seriously,
you've noticed that too, huh? ;-) I often wonder if the piercing
lessens the damage of the original shot, thus making this *another*
way that Blizzard makes it harder on the bow-weilding community ;-)
>I haven't tested FA/Pierce yet, simply because I usually MS aiming at
>nothing particular, holding the mousebutton down, and then directing the
>stream where I want it to go. No need for FA so far.
>
Yeah, that's my problem with testing FA, too, Strafe does so well for
me in most situations that I don't think I need FA. When I *do*, it's
too late :-(
>No need to convince anyone here :) I'll probably max strafe, if only for
>the reason that there is not much else to put points into, except Valk.
>So sooner or later, I'll probably end up using strafe primarily. Time
>will tell. At least, I am open-minded enough to try both, even if that
>means to "waste" 5 skill points here or there.
>
Good, it's a relief to hear that you're that open-minded. The last
time I got into this with someone here, one Edward Glamkowski, he was
much less so ;-) Sis is actually almost down to the point where she
has noting else to add to except MS, although she has enough left to
put in the passives and wasted enough points when she was young (she
*is*, after all, my first character) so that she'll probably never max
it. I'm reaching quite a different crossroad with SisFusion. In there,
they've increased the level requirements for all skills, so she won't
get Strafe until she's level 32, a level that I've managed to get
exactly *one* character (Sis) to. This means that, for a long time,
and possibly for her entire life, unless I can raise the plateau of
where I've been able to raise lesser characters to, she's stuck with
MS or nothing :-( At level 14, she hasn't added more than one to MS
yet, and has already started saving points for level 16 (think normal
level 12) skills, but I've already become convinced that long before
level 32 she's going to run into a situation where she can add to
nothing except MS ;-)
>Hm, well. I have seven, and don't feel like spending more, because the
>cost increases whereas the return of added points diminishes. I rarely
>have more than 5 monsters to hit, so 7 arrows are enough; the second
>wave will hit if the first didn't. If there are more than 5 monsters,
>you usually fight the 5 in the first line, which, stunned and chilled
>hold back the rest until the first row is finfished or they get hit by
>missing/piercing arrows.
>More than 7 arrows is a luxury: more comfortable, but not THAT necessary
>;)
Ok, I don't need to point out here that the mana cost for Strafe never
rises, do I? ;-) Interesting, so what you're saying is that if Sis
wears her Silks, she can cast MS at pretty close to maximum
efficiency? She switched to MS toward the end of one or two of her
runs, just to play around with it, but still didn't see any advantage
over her Strafe ;-)
Ingo Jankowski
>
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:19:20 +0100, Ingo Jankowski
> <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
> I'm kind of
> looking forward to that again, the AoE for Strafe in 1.04 made it
> almost a dead even trade with fixing the bow bug :-(
at something you don't see? (Answer: same way you fire 29 arrows in a
split-second. okokok. ;)) MS doesn't aim, just fires arrows into the
blue. I think its fair to have a greater range on that.
> ??? You lost me here. Are we talking about the time that critters are
> frozen with the Eye?
Yup. I have a 9-seconds one. Too bad it has only 3% leech.
> I just *like* MS better.
> Understood, I'm the same way with Strafe. I know I've been in
> situations where MS would have worked better, but I like Strafe too
> much to switch ;-)
Just one question: What level is your strafe at?
> When have you been playing with Ken? ;-) (Sorry, you probably won't
> get that. Ken Noone used to post in here, the running joke (during D1
> days) was that whenever anyone forgot the space and used his name
> instead of "no one", they owed him an elixir of his choice)
Heh, that's just my accent ;)
> Ok, I don't need to point out here that the mana cost for Strafe never
> rises, do I? ;-) Interesting, so what you're saying is that if Sis
> wears her Silks, she can cast MS at pretty close to maximum
> efficiency? She switched to MS toward the end of one or two of her
> runs, just to play around with it, but still didn't see any advantage
> over her Strafe ;-)
Hmp, you can't compare a slvl 22 strafe to a slvl 5 MS, now can you?
For me, it's just the reverse: Having MS at 6, I really see no
improvement
in a 4 strafe, unless perhaps in situations where I am alone with a
toughguy. So what? I'll be using MS until strafe is at 10, maybe then
start to use it more often. We'll see.
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Hehehe ;) I don't think they "fix" it back - how could you possibly aim
>at something you don't see? (Answer: same way you fire 29 arrows in a
>split-second. okokok. ;)) MS doesn't aim, just fires arrows into the
>blue. I think its fair to have a greater range on that.
>
Yeah, and it still does have a longer range, it's just that the range
of the auto-targetting was *seriously* messed up in 1.04 ;-)
>Just one question: What level is your strafe at?
>
You have me there, it's a base level of 20, 23 in the equipment she's
usually running around in.
>Hmp, you can't compare a slvl 22 strafe to a slvl 5 MS, now can you?
Pretty close, level 23 Strafe to level 5 MS, but that's partly because
of the difference in the spells. Strafe gets more powerful as you add
to it, not because it adds extra arrows (the 5 that it puts out at
level 1 would be enough for most situations), but because of the 5%
damage boost from each point into it. That extra 115% of damage on
each arrow is what I *really* like about Strafe ;-)
>For me, it's just the reverse: Having MS at 6, I really see no
>improvement
>in a 4 strafe, unless perhaps in situations where I am alone with a
>toughguy. So what? I'll be using MS until strafe is at 10, maybe then
>start to use it more often. We'll see.
Ok, quick breakdown here. At level 6, MS is putting out what, 13
arrows doing your regular damage to 3-5 critters, right? At level 4,
Strafe is putting out 11 arrows, I believe, and, assuming again that
you're to hit is about 90%, it should hit 9-10 critters (assuming
there are that many on the screen) with an arrow that's 20% stronger
than the one from MS. Which would *you* prefer? ;-)
Marshall
"ald" <10317...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3a7b075c...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:14:43 +0100, Ingo Jankowski
> <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>
> Ok, quick breakdown here. At level 6, MS is putting out what, 13
> arrows doing your regular damage to 3-5 critters, right?
Level 1 MS fires 2 arrows, add one for each level up. So lvl 6 MS
fires only 7 arrows. Unless you were factoring in added skills items,
in which case- 'nevermind' :-) Also, you can hit many more than
just 3-5 critters, much of the time. Just like Strafers like to gather
them into wads for more efficient killing, so do MS'ers. With my
lvl 10 MS and 11 arrows, I can adjust the spread to strike almost
every critter within a 60-90 degree fan, easily- when battling
huge clusters of dozens of critters in the RoF, for example, I can
hit more critters per-second than any Strafer can, and more reliably,
too- since the ones moving laterally or diagonally to you will usually
get hit by the even MS spread, whereas strafe usually misses those,
completely. And unless all of the Strafer's targets are neatly in the
same quadrant, it is *much* slower than MS, in getting off each shot.
I practically never stunlocked critters when I used strafe, and they
often got into melee range because of that. With the stunlocking
affect from the faster MS rate-of-fire, they hardly ever get close.
And of course, the freedom to reposition yourself in a split second,
is quite nice.
> At level 4,
> Strafe is putting out 11 arrows, I believe, and, assuming again that
> you're to hit is about 90%, it should hit 9-10 critters (assuming
> there are that many on the screen) with an arrow that's 20% stronger
> than the one from MS. Which would *you* prefer? ;-)
After considerable use of both, I prefer MS for all but the tougher
bosses, and then only after I've used MS to clear their minions
away with. Only once they are alone and slugging it out with my
Valk, do a cast a decoy and whittle them down with strafe. I used
to swear by strafe and knock MS, myself... but I've seen the light :-)
Perhaps if I ever aquire a very fast gothic, maybe then I will put
strafe into more general use. As it is, MS is as fast, safer, and more
efficient for me, 95% of the time. With only sias gloves and gold-
wrap, strafe's just too darned slow, for my taste. Besides, I don't mind
aiming <grin>.
Just for reference, here's a breakdown of my lvl 76 zon's stats, for both
MS and Strafe:
Dex: 304; bow: 27-132 damage; +1 to skills, from amulet; to-hit: 91%
MS: 110-533 (lvl 10) average damage: 321
Strafe: 127-617 (lvl 13) average damage: 372
Sure, if I'd put another 8 points in to max out strafe, it would be up
around 650 or so... but the only reason I've put as many points into
strafe as I have, is because with all the points I saved from not maxing
it before (and only need 10 or less in MS, for it to work great), I was able
to quickly build up the important passives to their best levels, first. Now
that I have, I'm dropping more into strafe. So, it's roughly a 5-6 ratio,
damage-wise. With strafe maxed out, it would only make a fractional
difference. When you factor in the somewhat faster firing speed of MS
(in most situations), this difference is practically nil... actually, IMO, I
feel that MS usually cleans up the big crowds faster- at least for me.
And when you want *every* volley to go only into the cluster of targets
you are desperately trying to lay down fire on, and not waste critical
seconds spraying strafe arrows 360 degrees around you at critters that
are no threat to you in any way (often just sunning themselves on the
far riverbanks, or loitering on a distant platform)... MS is simply the best
way to go. What some consider a benefit (360 degree autotargeting), I
consider to be one of strafe's biggest drawbacks- and very annoying.
-Marshall
ald
wrote:
>Level 1 MS fires 2 arrows, add one for each level up. So lvl 6 MS
>fires only 7 arrows. Unless you were factoring in added skills items,
>in which case- 'nevermind' :-)
Nope, just showing my MS stupidity, I thought it started at 3 and
added 2 per point, like Strafe (which starts with 5).
>Also, you can hit many more than
>just 3-5 critters, much of the time. Just like Strafers like to gather
>them into wads for more efficient killing, so do MS'ers. With my
>lvl 10 MS and 11 arrows, I can adjust the spread to strike almost
>every critter within a 60-90 degree fan, easily- when battling
>huge clusters of dozens of critters in the RoF, for example, I can
>hit more critters per-second than any Strafer can, and more reliably,
>too- since the ones moving laterally or diagonally to you will usually
>get hit by the even MS spread, whereas strafe usually misses those,
>completely. And unless all of the Strafer's targets are neatly in the
>same quadrant, it is *much* slower than MS, in getting off each shot.
>I practically never stunlocked critters when I used strafe, and they
>often got into melee range because of that. With the stunlocking
>affect from the faster MS rate-of-fire, they hardly ever get close.
>And of course, the freedom to reposition yourself in a split second,
>is quite nice.
>
And here, the 3-5 critters was actually an addition to the example I
was given, where the poster said he could aim MS to hit 3 different
critters. Again, Sis has *never* died due to Strafe-lock. She *does*
keep most of her targets in the same quadrant, so that any wayward
creatures, which make her turn and fire, become quite obvious quite
quickly. However, in solo games, she'll barely have time to notice,
let alone react, before she's no longer firing at the critter, since
after one shot or at most two it is a cold slab of meat on the ground
;-) Also, while it's not technically stunlock, with her Frosties and
Fletcher's Am of Frost, it is rare for a critter to get close enough
to hit her, as they're usually frozen when they aren't stunlocked, and
stay that way even in Hell until the next volley comes around again.
One other point: When it comes to secondary targets, you're probably
right about Strafe missing moving ones, although I'm not so sure how
accurately MS would pick them up (I guess that would depend on how
many arrows are left and at what spread). But if you're Strafing with
a Valk, that extra arrow *seems* to me to be put in as an extra volley
at the targetted critter, once in the beginning of the Strafe and once
at the end (this I can only really see in the 8-player mods, where
there's still something standing after the initial volley). Because of
this, one of two things happen. Either, with a small group, you get 2
arrows flying around that are targetted at him and an almost 100%
(hmm, yeah, that would be about the same chance as MS has at this
point, with a close spread) chance of him walking into one or another
or, in a larger crowd, a very good chance that he *won't* still be
walking laterally by the time the second shot at him goes off. I can't
remember the last time Sis missed the targetted critter with Strafe
;-)
>> At level 4,
>> Strafe is putting out 11 arrows, I believe, and, assuming again that
>> you're to hit is about 90%, it should hit 9-10 critters (assuming
>> there are that many on the screen) with an arrow that's 20% stronger
>> than the one from MS. Which would *you* prefer? ;-)
>
>After considerable use of both, I prefer MS for all but the tougher
>bosses, and then only after I've used MS to clear their minions
>away with. Only once they are alone and slugging it out with my
>Valk, do a cast a decoy and whittle them down with strafe. I used
>to swear by strafe and knock MS, myself... but I've seen the light :-)
>Perhaps if I ever aquire a very fast gothic, maybe then I will put
>strafe into more general use. As it is, MS is as fast, safer, and more
>efficient for me, 95% of the time. With only sias gloves and gold-
>wrap, strafe's just too darned slow, for my taste. Besides, I don't mind
>aiming <grin>.
>
Funny, the boss by himself is the one situation where I switch *away*
from Strafe, to Ice Arrow for the faster fire rate, supplemented with
Immolation Arrow if need be ;-) And I don't mind aiming, either, been
doing it since I figured out you could hold down the right button and
Strafe at the same target multiple times (I never said I was the
sharpest pencil in the box ;-) ) at about level 60. The only pain is
having to re-target after every shot, because the stupid target is
already dead ;-)
>Just for reference, here's a breakdown of my lvl 76 zon's stats, for both
>MS and Strafe:
>
>Dex: 304; bow: 27-132 damage; +1 to skills, from amulet; to-hit: 91%
>
>MS: 110-533 (lvl 10) average damage: 321
>Strafe: 127-617 (lvl 13) average damage: 372
>
>Sure, if I'd put another 8 points in to max out strafe, it would be up
>around 650 or so... but the only reason I've put as many points into
>strafe as I have, is because with all the points I saved from not maxing
>it before (and only need 10 or less in MS, for it to work great), I was able
>to quickly build up the important passives to their best levels, first. Now
>that I have, I'm dropping more into strafe. So, it's roughly a 5-6 ratio,
>damage-wise. With strafe maxed out, it would only make a fractional
>difference. When you factor in the somewhat faster firing speed of MS
>(in most situations), this difference is practically nil... actually, IMO, I
>feel that MS usually cleans up the big crowds faster- at least for me.
>And when you want *every* volley to go only into the cluster of targets
>you are desperately trying to lay down fire on, and not waste critical
>seconds spraying strafe arrows 360 degrees around you at critters that
>are no threat to you in any way (often just sunning themselves on the
>far riverbanks, or loitering on a distant platform)... MS is simply the best
>way to go. What some consider a benefit (360 degree autotargeting), I
>consider to be one of strafe's biggest drawbacks- and very annoying.
> -Marshall
Well, yeah, but in solo games (where I spend most of my time) a
Strafazon almost never has critters coming at her from 360-degrees.
Once per level she'll have a chance of critters coming from 180
(stairs), but after that everything *should* be coming from one
direction, two at most, as either her or the Valk have to wake up the
critters before they'll come after her, and it's pretty easy to
control what direction woken monsters are coming from, especially if
it only takes one volley to take out any wayward ones. Of course, this
is different if there are seven other players around stirring up
trouble ;-)
It seriously sounds like you were convinced to change by a certain
mutual friend of ours. If so, I have *no* chance (not like I do
anyway, but that's beside the point) of bringing you back to the
light, as he's a better debater than I am and has had more practice at
bringing people over to his side. Seriously, though, I'll take that
added power (for me, with a 19-102 bow, that 115% damage isn't as
significant as it would be for you with *your* bow, but I love it)
from Strafe and trade off the slightly slower fire rate (the
auto-targetting problem, as I said, is rarely a problem for me) to
kill them twice as quickly ;-)
Ingo Jankowski
>
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:14:43 +0100, Ingo Jankowski
> <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
> Yeah, and it still does have a longer range, it's just that the range
> of the auto-targetting was *seriously* messed up in 1.04 ;-)
Wasn't the range of all magic spells?
> >Just one question: What level is your strafe at?
> You have me there, it's a base level of 20, 23 in the equipment she's
> usually running around in.
Hah! Gotcha :*)
> >Hmp, you can't compare a slvl 22 strafe to a slvl 5 MS, now can you?
>
> Pretty close, level 23 Strafe to level 5 MS, but that's partly because
> of the difference in the spells. Strafe gets more powerful as you add
> to it, not because it adds extra arrows (the 5 that it puts out at
> level 1 would be enough for most situations), but because of the 5%
> damage boost from each point into it. That extra 115% of damage on
> each arrow is what I *really* like about Strafe ;-)
Thats the point. Maybe at 115%, I'll overcome my dislike for the better
damage ;)
> Ok, quick breakdown here. At level 6, MS is putting out what, 13
> arrows doing your regular damage to 3-5 critters, right?
Wrong, unfortunately. MS only adds one arrow for every skill point, not
2.
So its (slvl+1) arrows, 7 in this case.
> At level 4,
> Strafe is putting out 11 arrows, I believe, and, assuming again that
> you're to hit is about 90%, it should hit 9-10 critters (assuming
> there are that many on the screen) with an arrow that's 20% stronger
> than the one from MS. Which would *you* prefer? ;-)
My problem is, I don't actually see 90% of the strafe arrows hit. Having
cold damage, you can easily tell if you hit or miss. But with monsters
moving, and not towards me but to my valk (thank Go- er, Blizzard) and
therefore across my line of fire most of the time, I don't have the
impression to hit that often (and yes, with a +262 AR bow and ~120 dex I
have the 90% as well).
And, it just *feels* safer if you stop a whole group of bloodthirsty
flayers in an instant, jump back a step and calm down, while your
usually-cowardly-trailing valk moves in. And don't tell me you don't
stop but just finish them with the first shot ;)
Ah well, my last Rune Imbue still gave me crap, but the 56 damage bow at
least has SIAS now :) Which is exceptionally nice with MS :)
Ingo Jankowski
> Also, while it's not technically stunlock, with her Frosties and
> Fletcher's Am of Frost, it is rare for a critter to get close enough
> to hit her, as they're usually frozen when they aren't stunlocked, and
> stay that way even in Hell until the next volley comes around again.
Are they frozen (like with iceblink) or just chilled (still moving,
albeit slowly)?
> >Now that I have, I'm dropping more into strafe. So, it's roughly a 5-6
> >ratio, damage-wise. With strafe maxed out, it would only make a
> >fractional difference. When you factor in the somewhat faster firing
> >speed of MS (in most situations), this difference is practically nil...
Ahhh. Srafe only *adds* xx% of the pysical base damage, right? So it
doesnt double your final damage output? Uh, oh. I should consider
putting my worthy points elsewhere, then... maybe another two into MS...
> Seriously, though, I'll take that
> added power (for me, with a 19-102 bow, that 115% damage isn't as
> significant as it would be for you with *your* bow, but I love it)
So... could you list your actual damage output (from the attrib screen)
with and without strafe, just for reference? That would be nice.
Franklin Bratcher
equipped, you use them, otherwise, your bow fires a MA + whatever extra
skill you are using. If they did something like that, then it would make MA
a useful skill, and worth investing the points in to get the "free" arrows.
Marshall
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 02:55:53 GMT, "Marshall" <mars...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> quickly. However, in solo games, she'll barely have time to notice,
> let alone react, before she's no longer firing at the critter, since
> after one shot or at most two it is a cold slab of meat on the ground
> ;-)
True, different venues... I play almost exclusively in large multi-
player games, where even with 500-600 max arrow damage, it
takes plenty of shots to bring down the average critter. In solo,
it doesn't matter at all which I use- they fall over as soon as they
see me coming ;-P
> Also, while it's not technically stunlock, with her Frosties and
> Fletcher's Am of Frost, it is rare for a critter to get close enough
> to hit her, as they're usually frozen when they aren't stunlocked, and
> stay that way even in Hell until the next volley comes around again.
Due to the longer life-span of the critters I fight in 8-player games,
they have many more chances to lay hurt on me- particularly those
nasty Okies. So I try to keep my resists up fairly high- so no Eye, for
me. Also, my mana is already ok, and I need sias gloves for the attack
speed (slow dang bow). This has prevented me from using Frosties, for
cold damage. Since I currently have no cold damage, any slow-down in
my attack speed/stunlocking rate from using strafe, is unacceptable to me.
The Venom Lords are on me too dang fast, if I miss a single hit-cycle
with strafe. MS works far better for me, in these situations. In small
games, where you kill with only a hit or two, no biggie... but when it
takes 8-15 hits to stop them, and you have no cold damage to slow
them down... MS is a life saver.
> Funny, the boss by himself is the one situation where I switch *away*
> from Strafe, to Ice Arrow for the faster fire rate, supplemented with
> Immolation Arrow if need be ;-) And I don't mind aiming, either, been
> doing it since I figured out you could hold down the right button and
> Strafe at the same target multiple times (I never said I was the
> sharpest pencil in the box ;-) ) at about level 60. The only pain is
> having to re-target after every shot, because the stupid target is
> already dead ;-)
Yeah, have the same problem with MS, if you target specific critters in
a bunch. I try to aim in front of or behind the pack, depending on how
wide of a spread I need.
> Well, yeah, but in solo games (where I spend most of my time) a
> Strafazon almost never has critters coming at her from 360-degrees.
> Once per level she'll have a chance of critters coming from 180
> (stairs), but after that everything *should* be coming from one
> direction, two at most, as either her or the Valk have to wake up the
> critters before they'll come after her, and it's pretty easy to
> control what direction woken monsters are coming from, especially if
> it only takes one volley to take out any wayward ones. Of course, this
> is different if there are seven other players around stirring up
> trouble ;-)
I spent most of the first four months of my D2 time playing solo, so
I can relate to that style of play, pretty well- I was a cautious type,
and rarely faced monsters from multiple directions, either. Probably
why I was such a big strafe fan, back then ;-) Now that I major in
realms multiplayer, I've learned to appreciate the need for being
ready for anything, anytime- your partner and their valk/minions
kicking up critters right and left is one thing... but with four or
five lone-wolves marauding around the heart of chaos sanc, popping
seals unbeknownst to you, then fleeing past you with an extra-fast
boss pack in tow, while you're already engaged in a furball with
the Vizier or some such... heh, you get the picture ;-) There is no
such thing as safe, measured, cautious gameplay, in most multiplayer
games. You can play as safe as you know how, and you'll still see
lots of situations where it just don't matter- you're going to be hang-
ing off a cliff by only your jock-strap, all too often <LOL>.
> It seriously sounds like you were convinced to change by a certain
> mutual friend of ours. If so, I have *no* chance (not like I do
> anyway, but that's beside the point) of bringing you back to the
> light, as he's a better debater than I am and has had more practice at
> bringing people over to his side.
Well, I can't say that anybody outright convinced me to switch
over, I just started playing with it one day, and didn't really
think all that much of it, at first. But after switching back and
forth between them for a week or two, I just found myself liking
MS better. I'll not try to convince anybody to switch, just for the
sake of it- although I sing the praises of MS, if somebody likes
strafe better, and is happy with it, heh, that's all that counts. If
someone has learned to be successful with either, more power
to 'em. Although either camp can argue over the finer merits of
their chosen style/skill, they are really pretty much six of one,
half dozen of the other, when it comes right down to it.
> Seriously, though, I'll take that
> added power (for me, with a 19-102 bow, that 115% damage isn't as
> significant as it would be for you with *your* bow, but I love it)
> from Strafe and trade off the slightly slower fire rate (the
> auto-targetting problem, as I said, is rarely a problem for me) to
> kill them twice as quickly ;-)
And that's what works for you, in the games you play in... that's all
that matters, in my book :-)
-Marshall
Marshall
"Ingo Jankowski" <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in message
news:3A7AE752...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de...
> ald wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 02:55:53 GMT, "Marshall" <mars...@nospam.com>
> > wrote:
> Hehe, now you are cornered, ald.... :)
>
>
> > Also, while it's not technically stunlock, with her Frosties and
> > Fletcher's Am of Frost, it is rare for a critter to get close enough
> > to hit her, as they're usually frozen when they aren't stunlocked, and
> > stay that way even in Hell until the next volley comes around again.
>
> Are they frozen (like with iceblink) or just chilled (still moving,
> albeit slowly)?
Only chilled, moving slowly. Unless you also use Ice Arrow or
Freezing Arrow.
> > >Now that I have, I'm dropping more into strafe. So, it's roughly a 5-6
> > >ratio, damage-wise. With strafe maxed out, it would only make a
> > >fractional difference. When you factor in the somewhat faster firing
> > >speed of MS (in most situations), this difference is practically nil...
>
> Ahhh. Srafe only *adds* xx% of the pysical base damage, right? So it
> doesnt double your final damage output? Uh, oh. I should consider
> putting my worthy points elsewhere, then... maybe another two into MS...
Correct. Before the 1.04 patch, strafe added its damage boost *after* all
the other calculations were done, so Strafe really ballooned your total
damage, at high levels. No longer. It's just a fair little bonus now, as
opposed to being almost double the damage from MS, before.
> > Seriously, though, I'll take that
> > added power (for me, with a 19-102 bow, that 115% damage isn't as
> > significant as it would be for you with *your* bow, but I love it)
>
> So... could you list your actual damage output (from the attrib screen)
> with and without strafe, just for reference? That would be nice.
Easy to do. Just have your normal or MS attack on one mouse button,
and your Strafe attack on the other- then the damage total for each
will show right next to each other, on the stats screen.
-Marshall
Darrel Hoffman
unique bows, that automatically fire Magic Arrows when you do your normal
attack. Still uses arrows for your special skills, however, though if you
like Exploding Arrow there is Raven's Claw or Hellcast...
--
Baroness Brimstone, lvl 52 Pyromaniac Sorceress
Dame Volta, lvl 28 Struggling Lightning Sorceress
Lady Mocha, lvl 43 Javazon. (Never name chars before breakfast)
Baroness Xena (My brother named her), lvl 51 Pikazon
Nightcrawler, lvl 19 Oblivion Knight Wannabe
A bunch of others characters.
---
"Franklin Bratcher" <ach...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CJe6.2655$%64.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Are they frozen (like with iceblink) or just chilled (still moving,
>albeit slowly)?
>
Ok, you got me again. Never having had Iceblink, I'm not sure of it's
effect, but I would say that they are more chilled than frozen, unless
I throw in an Ice Arrow.
>Ahhh. Srafe only *adds* xx% of the pysical base damage, right? So it
>doesnt double your final damage output? Uh, oh. I should consider
>putting my worthy points elsewhere, then... maybe another two into MS...
>
Um, that depends. I haven't yet upgraded to 1.05, so I'm still getting
the doubling of the final damage output ;-)
>So... could you list your actual damage output (from the attrib screen)
>with and without strafe, just for reference? That would be nice.
Sure, tempt me to take Sis out on another run ;-) Ok, give me a sec to
change patch files ... Ok, I'm not sure how accurate it is (actually,
I'm *quite* sure of how *in*accurate it is ;-) ) and this is in
version 1.04, but the displayed damage for Normal attack (which would
be the same for MS, right?) is 74-380, while Strafe is displaying
97-496. Hmm, an average of almost 70 more points of damage per arrow,
yeah, I'd say that's worth the 20 skill point investment. For me, this
is the difference between monsters going down in 1-2 arrows and going
down in 3-4, which is something I would prefer not to think about ;-)
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
Sis-eight level 25 Bowazon (8-player mod)
CotSRSig #16
ald
wrote:
>True, different venues... I play almost exclusively in large multi-
>player games, where even with 500-600 max arrow damage, it
>takes plenty of shots to bring down the average critter. In solo,
>it doesn't matter at all which I use- they fall over as soon as they
>see me coming ;-P
>
Lol, understood, as Sis is now planning on playing almost exclusively
the enhanced 8-player mod (it would be *way* too much of a pain to get
her stash back down to normal size). Plenty? Yeah, I'd call about 50
plenty ;-)
>Due to the longer life-span of the critters I fight in 8-player games,
>they have many more chances to lay hurt on me- particularly those
>nasty Okies. So I try to keep my resists up fairly high- so no Eye, for
>me. Also, my mana is already ok, and I need sias gloves for the attack
>speed (slow dang bow). This has prevented me from using Frosties, for
>cold damage. Since I currently have no cold damage, any slow-down in
>my attack speed/stunlocking rate from using strafe, is unacceptable to me.
>The Venom Lords are on me too dang fast, if I miss a single hit-cycle
>with strafe. MS works far better for me, in these situations. In small
>games, where you kill with only a hit or two, no biggie... but when it
>takes 8-15 hits to stop them, and you have no cold damage to slow
>them down... MS is a life saver.
>
8-15? Maybe the Quill rats ;-) Seriously, have you tried the Frosties?
To *my* way of thinking, the cold damage is much better at keeping
them off of you than SIAS (and yeah, I've tried SIAS, even with Sis
for a while, but two of my current up-and-coming characters are using
it now).
>Yeah, have the same problem with MS, if you target specific critters in
>a bunch. I try to aim in front of or behind the pack, depending on how
>wide of a spread I need.
>
Yeah, but with Strafe, it's actually an advantage to target them,
'cause then you're not shooting arrows when there's no one left to
kill ;-)
>I spent most of the first four months of my D2 time playing solo, so
>I can relate to that style of play, pretty well- I was a cautious type,
>and rarely faced monsters from multiple directions, either. Probably
>why I was such a big strafe fan, back then ;-) Now that I major in
>realms multiplayer, I've learned to appreciate the need for being
>ready for anything, anytime- your partner and their valk/minions
>kicking up critters right and left is one thing... but with four or
>five lone-wolves marauding around the heart of chaos sanc, popping
>seals unbeknownst to you, then fleeing past you with an extra-fast
>boss pack in tow, while you're already engaged in a furball with
>the Vizier or some such... heh, you get the picture ;-) There is no
>such thing as safe, measured, cautious gameplay, in most multiplayer
>games. You can play as safe as you know how, and you'll still see
>lots of situations where it just don't matter- you're going to be hang-
>ing off a cliff by only your jock-strap, all too often <LOL>.
>
Which is why, for the moment at least, I much prefer the enhanced
8-player mod ;-)
>Well, I can't say that anybody outright convinced me to switch
>over, I just started playing with it one day, and didn't really
>think all that much of it, at first. But after switching back and
>forth between them for a week or two, I just found myself liking
>MS better. I'll not try to convince anybody to switch, just for the
>sake of it- although I sing the praises of MS, if somebody likes
>strafe better, and is happy with it, heh, that's all that counts. If
>someone has learned to be successful with either, more power
>to 'em. Although either camp can argue over the finer merits of
>their chosen style/skill, they are really pretty much six of one,
>half dozen of the other, when it comes right down to it.
>
Agreed ;-) Sorry, it sounded for some reason like Stephen had
convinced you, I'll have to apologize to him for the false accusation
;-) I don't expect to change the mind of anyone who's already decided
that they like MS better, all I'm trying to do is present my reasons
for using Strafe, and maybe sway the undecided ;-)
>And that's what works for you, in the games you play in... that's all
>that matters, in my book :-)
> -Marshall
And again, agreed ;-)
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Wasn't the range of all magic spells?
>
Well, I suppose so, but Strafe was the only one I really tried ;-)
>Thats the point. Maybe at 115%, I'll overcome my dislike for the better
>damage ;)
>
I see the difference even at spell level 1, where Sis-eight had it up
until the last few minutes of her last game. My problem is that I
remember all too well the monsters laughing at Sis when she was using
Normal attack, actually *gaining* hit points while she was hitting
them trying to build up enough mana for Strafe or Ice Arrow. This
makes me *very* hesitant to go with a skill that in essence only fires
normal arrows.
>Wrong, unfortunately. MS only adds one arrow for every skill point, not
>2.
>So its (slvl+1) arrows, 7 in this case.
>
Which I've already been corrected on. Sorry, can you tell I've never
tried MS at anything resembling high levels? ;-)
>My problem is, I don't actually see 90% of the strafe arrows hit. Having
>cold damage, you can easily tell if you hit or miss. But with monsters
>moving, and not towards me but to my valk (thank Go- er, Blizzard) and
>therefore across my line of fire most of the time, I don't have the
>impression to hit that often (and yes, with a +262 AR bow and ~120 dex I
>have the 90% as well).
>
Hmm, what I'm trying for (and usually succeed in getting) is the
monsters moving toward the Valk *in front of me*, and thus *not*
moving across my line of fire. It doesn't always succeed, but it
appears to be succeeding more now that my Valk is up there in levels
(yeah, I have that one maxed, too). Somehow it seems that a level 23
Valk is much braver than a level 1 one ;-)
>And, it just *feels* safer if you stop a whole group of bloodthirsty
>flayers in an instant, jump back a step and calm down, while your
>usually-cowardly-trailing valk moves in. And don't tell me you don't
>stop but just finish them with the first shot ;)
>
Well, ... ;-)
>Ah well, my last Rune Imbue still gave me crap, but the 56 damage bow at
>least has SIAS now :) Which is exceptionally nice with MS :)
Why a Rune instead of a Gothic?
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
ald
wrote:
>Hmm, what I'm trying for (and usually succeed in getting) is the
>monsters moving toward the Valk *in front of me*, and thus *not*
>moving across my line of fire. It doesn't always succeed, but it
>appears to be succeeding more now that my Valk is up there in levels
>(yeah, I have that one maxed, too). Somehow it seems that a level 23
>Valk is much braver than a level 1 one ;-)
Hmm, I *knew* I'd forgotten something. What I would suggest, if the
monsters are moving across your field of fire toward the Valk, and the
Valk is a safe distance from you, is to hold your fire for a second
(or MS for a shot or two) until they catch up with her, then fire when
they're grouped around her ;-)
Marshall
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 02:14:53 GMT, "Marshall" <mars...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Due to the longer life-span of the critters I fight in 8-player games,
> >they have many more chances to lay hurt on me- particularly those
> >nasty Okies. So I try to keep my resists up fairly high- so no Eye, for
> >me. Also, my mana is already ok, and I need sias gloves for the attack
> >speed (slow dang bow). This has prevented me from using Frosties, for
> >cold damage. Since I currently have no cold damage, any slow-down in
> >my attack speed/stunlocking rate from using strafe, is unacceptable to
me.
> >The Venom Lords are on me too dang fast, if I miss a single hit-cycle
> >with strafe. MS works far better for me, in these situations. In small
> >games, where you kill with only a hit or two, no biggie... but when it
> >takes 8-15 hits to stop them, and you have no cold damage to slow
> >them down... MS is a life saver.
> >
>
> 8-15? Maybe the Quill rats ;-) Seriously, have you tried the Frosties?
> To *my* way of thinking, the cold damage is much better at keeping
> them off of you than SIAS (and yeah, I've tried SIAS, even with Sis
> for a while, but two of my current up-and-coming characters are using
> it now).
I may experiment with Frosties a bit, next time I happen across some.
It is nice to have cold damage, for sure. But I'd sure miss the extra
speed (come on, rare 35-150 bat/frost/ias gothic- come to pappa... ;)
> >Yeah, have the same problem with MS, if you target specific critters in
> >a bunch. I try to aim in front of or behind the pack, depending on how
> >wide of a spread I need.
> >
>
> Yeah, but with Strafe, it's actually an advantage to target them,
> 'cause then you're not shooting arrows when there's no one left to
> kill ;-)
Heh, in my ranking of the importance of the various pluses of a given
skill, that comes in at around a '1.5' ;-) I'd rather fire off an unneces-
sary extra volley or two, than have my firing stop before I run out of
critters.
> >I spent most of the first four months of my D2 time playing solo, so
> >I can relate to that style of play, pretty well- I was a cautious type,
> >and rarely faced monsters from multiple directions, either. Probably
> >why I was such a big strafe fan, back then ;-) Now that I major in
> >realms multiplayer, I've learned to appreciate the need for being
> >ready for anything, anytime- your partner and their valk/minions
> >kicking up critters right and left is one thing... but with four or
> >five lone-wolves marauding around the heart of chaos sanc, popping
> >seals unbeknownst to you, then fleeing past you with an extra-fast
> >boss pack in tow, while you're already engaged in a furball with
> >the Vizier or some such... heh, you get the picture ;-) There is no
> >such thing as safe, measured, cautious gameplay, in most multiplayer
> >games. You can play as safe as you know how, and you'll still see
> >lots of situations where it just don't matter- you're going to be hang-
> >ing off a cliff by only your jock-strap, all too often <LOL>.
> >
>
> Which is why, for the moment at least, I much prefer the enhanced
> 8-player mod ;-)
Yeah, you lucky dog! ;-) I mentioned in another thread, how nice it
would be to have that capability on the realms, to be able to start a
pwd game and play 8-player games by yourself (or with one or two
friends), there. It would also keep the ladder-climbers from raping
the RoF in every new game that starts up, within the first couple of
minutes- they could do that all they wanted, in their own private exp.
games, without having to mess up all the pub games. Then the pub
games could get back to more of a cooperative questing atmosphere,
without all the solo experience-pillagers dashing through them.
> >Well, I can't say that anybody outright convinced me to switch
> >over, I just started playing with it one day, and didn't really
> >think all that much of it, at first. But after switching back and
> >forth between them for a week or two, I just found myself liking
> >MS better. I'll not try to convince anybody to switch, just for the
> >sake of it- although I sing the praises of MS, if somebody likes
> >strafe better, and is happy with it, heh, that's all that counts. If
> >someone has learned to be successful with either, more power
> >to 'em. Although either camp can argue over the finer merits of
> >their chosen style/skill, they are really pretty much six of one,
> >half dozen of the other, when it comes right down to it.
> >
>
> Agreed ;-) Sorry, it sounded for some reason like Stephen had
> convinced you, I'll have to apologize to him for the false accusation
> ;-) I don't expect to change the mind of anyone who's already decided
> that they like MS better, all I'm trying to do is present my reasons
> for using Strafe, and maybe sway the undecided ;-)
Uhuh, thought so... ulterior motives revealed! ;-P Actually, if I ever
find that Holy Gothic, with IAS and good damage on it, I could well
start using strafe a lot more- firing-speed is my primary concern,
with my style of play. With a very fast output, I'd be glad to use
strafe more. Stephen did start me onto the road to investigating
MS, with his good arguments about its benefits, in the past...
but it wasn't an overnight sell.
> >And that's what works for you, in the games you play in... that's all
> >that matters, in my book :-)
> > -Marshall
>
> And again, agreed ;-)
Geez, we suck at doing a good, bloody cutthroat flamewar, ald <sigh> ;)
-Marshall
ald
wrote:
>I may experiment with Frosties a bit, next time I happen across some.
>It is nice to have cold damage, for sure. But I'd sure miss the extra
>speed (come on, rare 35-150 bat/frost/ias gothic- come to pappa... ;)
>
I think it was Cameron, but it may have been someone else in here who,
when I asked them how they could put up with the slow speed of a
Crossbow, said that it seems that you adjust to whatever speed bow you
have. I've been doing some experimenting, and it would appear that
this is true. One of my Bowazons, I think it's Sis-Fusion, is
currently using a Crossbow of Frost. She's found one or two more
powerful bows (I think she has another crossbow in her stash, which
would be the most powerful she's found), and a lot that are quicker,
but nothing else with cold damage, which *I* consider essential,
especially in games where they've upped the monster's hitpoints. If
indeed the character with the crossbow is Sis-Fusion, the final phase
of her last run is a testament to the fact that you *do* adjust. She
died twice before finding her first bow (stupid wench *had* to go
after BloodRaven, at level 4 and still with her javelin when she
*refused* to put a point into Jab (she *is* a Bowazon, after all),
then died again when she first entered the Stony Field, still at level
4 IIRC), then found a bow and took off, getting somewhere into her
high teens before she finally fell again.
>Heh, in my ranking of the importance of the various pluses of a given
>skill, that comes in at around a '1.5' ;-) I'd rather fire off an unneces-
>sary extra volley or two, than have my firing stop before I run out of
>critters.
>
Yeah, agreed, unless I'm running low on arrows, which I find happening
all too often in the 8-player mods ;-)
>Yeah, you lucky dog! ;-) I mentioned in another thread, how nice it
>would be to have that capability on the realms, to be able to start a
>pwd game and play 8-player games by yourself (or with one or two
>friends), there. It would also keep the ladder-climbers from raping
>the RoF in every new game that starts up, within the first couple of
>minutes- they could do that all they wanted, in their own private exp.
>games, without having to mess up all the pub games. Then the pub
>games could get back to more of a cooperative questing atmosphere,
>without all the solo experience-pillagers dashing through them.
>
Yeah, it definitely sounds like a passworded 8-player game is what
you're looking for. It's a shame you can't leave the name/pass of a
game up in Justus, or, even better, have the bots parked in a game
with their characters, so we can chat (when they're attended) and gain
good experience at the same time. Of course, with my low-level Realms
characters, this isn't a concern of mine yet, but I could definitely
see where it would be if I had a Realm character as high-level as Sis,
or your Bowazon ;-)
>Uhuh, thought so... ulterior motives revealed! ;-P Actually, if I ever
>find that Holy Gothic, with IAS and good damage on it, I could well
>start using strafe a lot more- firing-speed is my primary concern,
>with my style of play. With a very fast output, I'd be glad to use
>strafe more. Stephen did start me onto the road to investigating
>MS, with his good arguments about its benefits, in the past...
>but it wasn't an overnight sell.
>
Again, with *my* playing style, I'm looking much more for cold damage
than increased attack speed, which would explain why Sis has gambled
away so much gold in a fruitless attempt to get an Eye. Sis has tried
a few bows with faster attack speed, admittedly none of them even
really decent, not to mention actually good, but keeps opting for the
power-over-speed choice ;-)
BTW, did you see the thread earlier this week in the LL about the
Double Bows? I didn't get a chance to read all of it, but skimming
through I noticed a link to a Speedazon guide, among other things ;-)
>Geez, we suck at doing a good, bloody cutthroat flamewar, ald <sigh> ;)
> -Marshall
Lol! Yeah, that would be *another* skill that I've yet to acquire ;-)
Marshall
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 00:54:50 GMT, "Marshall" <mars...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think it was Cameron, but it may have been someone else in here who,
> when I asked them how they could put up with the slow speed of a
> Crossbow, said that it seems that you adjust to whatever speed bow you
> have. I've been doing some experimenting, and it would appear that
> this is true.
Yes, it is. But ya wanna know a little secret? Adjusting to a really
fast bow with beaucoup damage... is *lots* easier ;-P When I found
my old 18-89 IAS gothic in early Hell diff, it was like finding out
your car's transmission has more than two gears, and putting it into
5th on the freeway. But, it just don't cut it now, for 8-player chaos
runs :-( It's emergency backup, in the cube.
> One of my Bowazons, I think it's Sis-Fusion, is
> currently using a Crossbow of Frost. She's found one or two more
> powerful bows (I think she has another crossbow in her stash, which
> would be the most powerful she's found), and a lot that are quicker,
> but nothing else with cold damage, which *I* consider essential,
> especially in games where they've upped the monster's hitpoints. If
> indeed the character with the crossbow is Sis-Fusion, the final phase
> of her last run is a testament to the fact that you *do* adjust. She
> died twice before finding her first bow (stupid wench *had* to go
> after BloodRaven, at level 4 and still with her javelin when she
> *refused* to put a point into Jab (she *is* a Bowazon, after all),
> then died again when she first entered the Stony Field, still at level
> 4 IIRC), then found a bow and took off, getting somewhere into her
> high teens before she finally fell again.
I bought Fletchie a plain socketed bow and slapped some chips in it,
right off the reel... after finding enough dough in the blood moor/cave
area. She never looked back. But, she did have an older brother necro,
so she never hurt for hand-me-downs, either <grin>.
> >Heh, in my ranking of the importance of the various pluses of a given
> >skill, that comes in at around a '1.5' ;-) I'd rather fire off an
unneces-
> >sary extra volley or two, than have my firing stop before I run out of
> >critters.
> >
>
> Yeah, agreed, unless I'm running low on arrows, which I find happening
> all too often in the 8-player mods ;-)
Hmm. I've never understood how people run out of arrows. I always
pack 3 full quivers when I leave town, and make sure they're full up
again, every time I do a town run. I always end up back in town to
dump some loot, before I run out. The only time I can remember ac-
tually running out, is when I was just cruising through a chaos run
without picking up any phat loot, just exp. hunting (but it's a rare day
in hell, when I can't be tempted to stop for a blue chaos armor ;).
Once I see the crossed-arrows in the upper right of the screen, I just
make use of one of them handy little tp-thingies, and all is well again.
> >Yeah, you lucky dog! ;-) I mentioned in another thread, how nice it
> >would be to have that capability on the realms, to be able to start a
> >pwd game and play 8-player games by yourself (or with one or two
> >friends), there. It would also keep the ladder-climbers from raping
> >the RoF in every new game that starts up, within the first couple of
> >minutes- they could do that all they wanted, in their own private exp.
> >games, without having to mess up all the pub games. Then the pub
> >games could get back to more of a cooperative questing atmosphere,
> >without all the solo experience-pillagers dashing through them.
> >
>
> Yeah, it definitely sounds like a passworded 8-player game is what
> you're looking for.
Well, it'd be nice if Blizz would just add that capability to the game,
like that mod you use does. That's what I was dreaming of- solo
8-player games, on the realms (as an option).
> It's a shame you can't leave the name/pass of a
> game up in Justus, or, even better, have the bots parked in a game
> with their characters, so we can chat (when they're attended) and gain
> good experience at the same time. Of course, with my low-level Realms
> characters, this isn't a concern of mine yet, but I could definitely
> see where it would be if I had a Realm character as high-level as Sis,
> or your Bowazon ;-)
I make use of the public 8-player games all the way through, in
each difficulty. I'll work the quests in pwd solo games, fairly
quickly- until I get to a certain point. Then I'll go back to a
favored feeding ground area in the 8-players, to power-level for
a spell, until my char catches up to the curve for the next push.
Much faster, that way- but putting up with PK's, elbowing barbs,
cleaned-out levels... makes it a chore, sometimes.
> >Uhuh, thought so... ulterior motives revealed! ;-P Actually, if I ever
> >find that Holy Gothic, with IAS and good damage on it, I could well
> >start using strafe a lot more- firing-speed is my primary concern,
> >with my style of play. With a very fast output, I'd be glad to use
> >strafe more. Stephen did start me onto the road to investigating
> >MS, with his good arguments about its benefits, in the past...
> >but it wasn't an overnight sell.
>
> Again, with *my* playing style, I'm looking much more for cold damage
> than increased attack speed, which would explain why Sis has gambled
> away so much gold in a fruitless attempt to get an Eye. Sis has tried
> a few bows with faster attack speed, admittedly none of them even
> really decent, not to mention actually good, but keeps opting for the
> power-over-speed choice ;-)
I did too, witness my current bow of choice. But if I can ever get one
with speed, that comes even close to the damage of my current one...
high clover.
> BTW, did you see the thread earlier this week in the LL about the
> Double Bows? I didn't get a chance to read all of it, but skimming
> through I noticed a link to a Speedazon guide, among other things ;-)
Was it in relation to the damage-per-second, factoring in the innate
speed of the Double, then adding IAS and extra speed from gloves,
belt, twitch? Yeah, read that guide, I believe. Very interesting. If you
ever came across a King's Merciless IAS Double bow, would be inter-
esting to give it a test drive... Double's are Very Fast to start with-
add 5x speed from mods/items, and look out. Even though they would
have less damage than an equivalent Rune or Goth, the blazing speed
would put them right into the ballpark, damage-per-second wise. And
everything would be stunlocked bigtime, that you laid into.
-Marshall
Cameron
>
>I think it was Cameron, but it may have been someone else in here who,
>when I asked them how they could put up with the slow speed of a
>Crossbow, said that it seems that you adjust to whatever speed bow you
>have. I've been doing some experimenting, and it would appear that
>this is true. One of my Bowazons, I think it's Sis-Fusion, is
>currently using a Crossbow of Frost. She's found one or two more
>powerful bows (I think she has another crossbow in her stash, which
>would be the most powerful she's found), and a lot that are quicker,
>but nothing else with cold damage, which *I* consider essential,
>especially in games where they've upped the monster's hitpoints. If
>indeed the character with the crossbow is Sis-Fusion, the final phase
>of her last run is a testament to the fact that you *do* adjust. She
>died twice before finding her first bow (stupid wench *had* to go
>after BloodRaven, at level 4 and still with her javelin when she
>*refused* to put a point into Jab (she *is* a Bowazon, after all),
>then died again when she first entered the Stony Field, still at level
>4 IIRC), then found a bow and took off, getting somewhere into her
>high teens before she finally fell again.
>
That was me.
In Hell the very slow attack speed crossbows are starting to become a
libablity though. I've just used my Hell imbue on a Ballista and
unfortunately didn't get the increased speed I was hoping for. +2 skills
and a small increase in damage and lightning resistance was all I got.
So while she can now do moderately more damage than before, the gaps
between firings are the problem. Single monsters - not a problem. <5
monsters - quite nice, good mana recovery no real challenge there.
More than that and I start to run into problems, which of course means
serious difficulties with boss packs. I can probably overcome this up until
Act III with better use of decoys, which I've been neglecting so far.
The jungle may prove her undoing, beyond that I think I'll be looking for
lots of skulls to reroll the bow.
Using Guided Arrows would seem out of the question though, as she stands
still for too long, so that's not a tactic worth pursuing.
Cameron
AndrooK2
Now i think what woulda been cooler is if in place of crossbow bolts, u could
equip another repeater and have double-speed MA. And it would look really cool
too...
Marshall
"AndrooK2" <andr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204121949...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
A 'dual-weilding' crossbowazon? Heh, yeah, that would be pretty cool
looking ;-) Like Rambo one-handing to M-60 machine guns at the same
time... hehe. Totally unrealistic and impossible, but cool.
-Marshall
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Good, it's a relief to hear that you're that open-minded. The last
>time I got into this with someone here, one Edward Glamkowski, he was
>much less so ;-) Sis is actually almost down to the point where she
>has noting else to add to except MS,
Hehe, I'm getting to a similar point with my realm bowazon, except
with Strafe instead of MS. MS (level 6-8), Critical Strike (>50%),
Penetrate, Pierce (>50%) and Valkyrie (about level 13 at this stage)
are pretty much where I want them, so the next few level ups are going
to go into either Immolation Arrow, Strafe or Guided Arrow (for the
occasional friendly PvP game). At this stage it looks like the points
from levels 61 to 70 are most likely going to go into Immolation
Arrow, but I may have to devote four or five into Strafe as well :-)
--
Baroness Challesa - level 68 Bowazon (Open)
Baroness Scarlotta - level 60 Bowazon (USWest)
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Unfortunately, the way MS works, you can only aim it at *1* monster,
>and hope that there are enough critters around it so that the other 14
>hit a couple targets. In my (admittedly limited) experience, this
>doesn't work too well.
But as you were saying, isn't your Valkyrie's job to wade into the
monsters ane draw the mobs into a killing zone? Once the monsters are
in a killing funnel, MS really starts to excel. Another way it excels
is by fanning the MS arrow spread into unexplored areas and using the
telltale mana swirl to locate and kill monsters that are often two or
three screens away. This is particularly effective in the River of
Flame and Chaos Sanctuary against Oblivion Knights and their brethren.
>Yeah, but with MS in the situation you're talking about, you're only
>guaranteed one hit, and the regular odds on getting CS. With Strafe,
>you're guaranteed (assuming 90% to hit, your example) 13 or 14 hits,
>with the odds against getting at least one CS dropping to almost
>impossible, especially with the high levels of CS discussed in this
>thread.
The concentrated damage of Strafe is certainly an excellent tool
against bosses, but against packs, since the Strafed arrows are
distributed between multiple targets, the number of shots hitting each
target is still quite low; the damage produced by Strafe versus MS
becomes a lot closer, especially now in the post-Strafe nerf days.
>The lower range for Strafe is *only* in auto-targetting, playing SP
>now I can still hit a critter half a map away (no exaggeration, as in
>3-4 screens away) with Strafe if I already have him targetted. At
>level 75, Sis has yet to die due to Strafe-lock. Of course, she's been
>in situations where a Strafe probably *would* have gotten her killed,
>but those are the situations where she's backpedalling, trying to get
>less critters on screen. Note: These situations don't come up often
>enough for her to even consider wearing any of the faster walk/run
>increased stamina boots, she prefers the rares that she has that add
>fire and lightning resistance to additions to dex and replenish life,
>and maybe one other modifier I've forgotten, but even before she got
>those she'd discarded the uniques with the faster run, she doesn't
>have to run that often. And, as I stated above, Strafe stunlocks
>critters and, since it's doing twice the damage (actually 2.15, since
>I'm running with it at level 23), it's actually twice as likely to
>stunlock them.
MS is quite capable of stunlocking creatures even in Hell difficulty,
so the damage bonus of Strafe isn't addding any value in this case.
And when you consider that MS typically fires arrows faster than
Strafe, I'd say keeping creatures stunlocked is easier with MS than it
is with Strafe.
>IMNSHO, if you have to choose one skill, it would be Strafe.
These days I'm very much into versatility when it comes to developing
my bowazons. Rather than choosing *one* skill, I choose a set of
skills that get the job done. For me, this is currently MS, Ice
Arrow, Freezing Arrow and Immolation Arrow. Sure, you could say that
sticking with one uber skill like Strafe is more efficient than
switching skills (economy of movement and all that), but for me,
varying your offense is what brings enjoyment to the game. That's
also the reason why my paladins are currently experimenting with
various combos of Charge, Zeal, Vengenace, Holy Freeze, Thorns and
Concentration rather than sticking with one combat skill and one aura.
>Of course, as I said somewhere up there, I don't have much experience
>with MS, and can't seem to get it to work well for me. In playing the
>8-player mods, there are a *lot* of hit points to take out between
>level 8 and 24, but I still can't justify to myself adding a second
>point to MS, even though I'm forced to use it quite often.
Well, herein lies the problem. A level one MS isn't very useful.
It's only when it gets to level three or beyond that it becomes a
valuable tool.
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Sure, tempt me to take Sis out on another run ;-) Ok, give me a sec to
>change patch files ... Ok, I'm not sure how accurate it is (actually,
>I'm *quite* sure of how *in*accurate it is ;-) ) and this is in
>version 1.04, but the displayed damage for Normal attack (which would
>be the same for MS, right?) is 74-380, while Strafe is displaying
>97-496. Hmm, an average of almost 70 more points of damage per arrow,
>yeah, I'd say that's worth the 20 skill point investment. For me, this
>is the difference between monsters going down in 1-2 arrows and going
>down in 3-4, which is something I would prefer not to think about ;-)
Ah, but think of it this way. What if, instead of getting a 70 point
damage increase from twenty points in Strafe, you'd put, say, six
skill points in Multiple Shot and spread the other fourteen skill
points between Critical Strike and Pierce? How does the equation
stack up then?
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Hmm, I *knew* I'd forgotten something. What I would suggest, if the
>monsters are moving across your field of fire toward the Valk, and the
>Valk is a safe distance from you, is to hold your fire for a second
>(or MS for a shot or two) until they catch up with her, then fire when
>they're grouped around her ;-)
Alternatively you could just MS them as soon as they appear and have
them dead while the Strafezon is still lining them up for her first
shot ;-)
Stephen van Ham
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:33:06 GMT, 10317...@compuserve.com (ald)
>wrote:
>
>>Hmm, I *knew* I'd forgotten something. What I would suggest, if the
>>monsters are moving across your field of fire toward the Valk, and the
>>Valk is a safe distance from you, is to hold your fire for a second
>>(or MS for a shot or two) until they catch up with her, then fire when
>>they're grouped around her ;-)
>
>Alternatively you could just MS them as soon as they appear and have
>them dead while the Strafezon is still lining them up for her first
>shot ;-)
Which reminds me. It was discussed long ago how instead of putting a
full twenty points in Strafe, four or five points could be funneled
into Multiple Shot, leaving a level fifteen or sixteen Strafe skill
that still inflicts a nice damage bonus while having a level of MS
that is useful for hitting offscreen monsters or for dishing out
damage while the monsters are assembling into a perfect Strafe-killing
zone.
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Ah, but think of it this way. What if, instead of getting a 70 point
>damage increase from twenty points in Strafe, you'd put, say, six
>skill points in Multiple Shot and spread the other fourteen skill
>points between Critical Strike and Pierce? How does the equation
>stack up then?
Worse, in my opinion. CS and Pierce are both at or very near the
levels I want them at, right around 50%, because of the
ineffectiveness of points put into them after that point. With another
14 points to invest in them, I *might* be able to get them both around
60%, which doesn't come *near* equaling that extra 70 damage average
(and over 120 max, you *did* notice that, didn't you?) IMNSHO ;-)
BTW, welcome back. I've been wondering where you were during this
thread ;-)
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
Sis-eight level 26 Bowazon (8-player mod)
CotSRSig #16
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:40:46 +1300, Stephen van Ham
><sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>Ah, but think of it this way. What if, instead of getting a 70 point
>>damage increase from twenty points in Strafe, you'd put, say, six
>>skill points in Multiple Shot and spread the other fourteen skill
>>points between Critical Strike and Pierce? How does the equation
>>stack up then?
>
>Worse, in my opinion. CS and Pierce are both at or very near the
>levels I want them at, right around 50%, because of the
>ineffectiveness of points put into them after that point. With another
>14 points to invest in them, I *might* be able to get them both around
>60%, which doesn't come *near* equaling that extra 70 damage average
>(and over 120 max, you *did* notice that, didn't you?) IMNSHO ;-)
Let's assume for a moment that, instead of going with 51% Critical
Strike and level 20 Strafe, we boosted Critical Strike to 68%, which
takes twelve additional skill points. Let's compare the damage:
Case 1 -
100 max damage bow
300 DEX
Level 20 Strafe (+100% damage)
Level 8 Critical Strike (51% chance)
Max damage = 100 + (100 * 3) + 100 = 500
Average max damage including Critical Strike = 500 * 1.51 = 755
Case 2
100 max damage bow
300 DEX
Level 0 Strafe
Level 20 Critical Strike (68% chance)
Max damage = 100 + (100 * 3) = 400
Average max damage including Critical Strike = 400 * 1.68 = 672
That's only about 12% difference, and you've still got another eight
skill points up your sleeve.
Stephen van Ham
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Let's assume for a moment that, instead of going with 51% Critical
>Strike and level 20 Strafe, we boosted Critical Strike to 68%, which
>takes twelve additional skill points. Let's compare the damage:
<>
And let's call this case 3, where we split those twenty eight skill
points another way:
Case 3 -
Level 16 Strafe (+80% damage)
Level 12 Critical Strike (59% chance)
Max damage = 100 + (100 * 3) + (100 * 0.8) = 480
Average max damage including Critical Strike = 480 * 1.59 = 763
Which is *more* damage than a level 20 Strafe with 51% Critical
Strike, for the same skill points. The extra Critical Strike chance
benefits other skills as well...
Of course, over the course of time you'd eventually have enough skill
points to boost Strafe *and* CS near level 20, but early on, it might
be better to boost Strafe to, say, level 5, and then boost Critical
Strike some extra levels early on.
ald
wrote:
>Yes, it is. But ya wanna know a little secret? Adjusting to a really
>fast bow with beaucoup damage... is *lots* easier ;-P
Lol, I'll bet :-)
>When I found
>my old 18-89 IAS gothic in early Hell diff, it was like finding out
>your car's transmission has more than two gears, and putting it into
>5th on the freeway. But, it just don't cut it now, for 8-player chaos
>runs :-( It's emergency backup, in the cube.
>
Hmm, Sis's backup in regular D2 (without the increased Stash) is her
second imbue (and fourth, after re-rolling it in the 8-player enhanced
mod), a Fletcher's Gothic with now worse attributes than it had
before. With the increased stash size in the enhanced mod, she's also
carrying around a +2 to Amazon skills bow, but it has no damage to
speak of, she only uses it with her Silks to cast a level 26 Valk ;-)
>I bought Fletchie a plain socketed bow and slapped some chips in it,
>right off the reel... after finding enough dough in the blood moor/cave
>area. She never looked back. But, she did have an older brother necro,
>so she never hurt for hand-me-downs, either <grin>.
>
Now, this is something that I don't do. None of my Open characters
share finds. The fact that I'm totally inept with a trainer has
nothing (ok, little) to do with it, it's just that that's a little too
close to cheating for my tastes. I don't feel overly strongly about
this, I mean I wouldn't refuse to play with your characters because
you did this, or anything remotely similar, it's just the way I feel
for the characters that I play SP. They're mostly Single Player
characters, so they should stick with what *they* find, not what my
other characters find. I'm also a bit of a hypocrite on this, since I
see nothing wrong with them taking items that *other* people have
given them, only with taking items from *my* other characters. Ok, so
I'm weird, but at least I admit it ;-)
>Hmm. I've never understood how people run out of arrows. I always
>pack 3 full quivers when I leave town, and make sure they're full up
>again, every time I do a town run. I always end up back in town to
>dump some loot, before I run out. The only time I can remember ac-
>tually running out, is when I was just cruising through a chaos run
>without picking up any phat loot, just exp. hunting (but it's a rare day
>in hell, when I can't be tempted to stop for a blue chaos armor ;).
>Once I see the crossed-arrows in the upper right of the screen, I just
>make use of one of them handy little tp-thingies, and all is well again.
>
Well, in normal (not 8-player) games, I only pack one extra quiver of
arrows, as I need the extra room for items that I've found down below
(Sis had her pack so full before she started playing the 8-player
enhanced mod that, even with dropping a whole bunch of stuff in town,
she still could only pick up one or two items before she had to go
back to town). That habit can run you into *serious* trouble in the
8-player mods, as I'm sure you can understand. And hitting the TP when
you see that crossed-arrows icon is fine, unless you're in the middle
of a battle with an extra-fast boss, a situation that I'm all too
familiar with ;-) In the 8-player mods, I *try* to remember to pack
three extra quivers, but I've *still* run out of arrows a few times
when nothing decent is dropping ;-)
>Well, it'd be nice if Blizz would just add that capability to the game,
>like that mod you use does. That's what I was dreaming of- solo
>8-player games, on the realms (as an option).
>
Yeah, that *would* be nice, but then *no one* would play open games,
which means the PKs would have no one to pick on, which is not a
situation that Blizzard wants :-(
>I make use of the public 8-player games all the way through, in
>each difficulty. I'll work the quests in pwd solo games, fairly
>quickly- until I get to a certain point. Then I'll go back to a
>favored feeding ground area in the 8-players, to power-level for
>a spell, until my char catches up to the curve for the next push.
>Much faster, that way- but putting up with PK's, elbowing barbs,
>cleaned-out levels... makes it a chore, sometimes.
>
Yeah, I could see that. I don't know, again it's a personal quirk, but
I *refuse* to play in Open games. It's probably due to my first
experience on BattleNet, which I've rambled on about *more* than
enough times already, but I *will not* give the PKs a chance at me ;-)
>I did too, witness my current bow of choice. But if I can ever get one
>with speed, that comes even close to the damage of my current one...
>high clover.
>
Agreed, and add in cold damage to the mix and I'd be *really* happy
;-)
>Was it in relation to the damage-per-second, factoring in the innate
>speed of the Double, then adding IAS and extra speed from gloves,
>belt, twitch? Yeah, read that guide, I believe. Very interesting. If you
>ever came across a King's Merciless IAS Double bow, would be inter-
>esting to give it a test drive... Double's are Very Fast to start with-
>add 5x speed from mods/items, and look out. Even though they would
>have less damage than an equivalent Rune or Goth, the blazing speed
>would put them right into the ballpark, damage-per-second wise. And
>everything would be stunlocked bigtime, that you laid into.
> -Marshall
>
I don't know, I didn't get a chance to check the link, but that sounds
like what the poster was describing. I would assume that the guide
urged you to use MS, too, since it's faster, right? ;-)
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
Sis-eight level 26 Bowazon (8-player mod)
CotSRSig #16
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:33:06 GMT, 10317...@compuserve.com (ald)
>wrote:
>
>>Hmm, I *knew* I'd forgotten something. What I would suggest, if the
>>monsters are moving across your field of fire toward the Valk, and the
>>Valk is a safe distance from you, is to hold your fire for a second
>>(or MS for a shot or two) until they catch up with her, then fire when
>>they're grouped around her ;-)
>
>Alternatively you could just MS them as soon as they appear and have
>them dead while the Strafezon is still lining them up for her first
>shot ;-)
Didn't I say something like that above? Although, of course, without
the prejudice against Strafazons ;-)
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
Sis-eight level 26 Bowazon (8-player mod)
CotSRSig #16
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Which reminds me. It was discussed long ago how instead of putting a
>full twenty points in Strafe, four or five points could be funneled
>into Multiple Shot, leaving a level fifteen or sixteen Strafe skill
>that still inflicts a nice damage bonus while having a level of MS
>that is useful for hitting offscreen monsters or for dishing out
>damage while the monsters are assembling into a perfect Strafe-killing
>zone.
Or putting the points into MS after maxing Strafe. Sis *may*
eventually do this, if she can find a situation where she'd rather use
MS than Strafe ;-) She doesn't need them to be in a "perfect"
Strafe-killing zone, as long as they're on-screen they'll fall all too
quickly to Strafe ;-) She *did* try MS one time when she was working
on learning the guided arrow skill in the 8-player enhanced mod. One
of the Wraith-types had moved *way* off into the areas where she
couldn't go, and she knew if she didn't find a way to eliminate him, D
wouldn't come out and the whole game would be wasted. As I recall, she
emptied her mana ball 2-3 times MSing at him, never did hit him, but
after the third time of going off to the mana shrine that was around
the corner he disappeared off of the monster radar. I figured he'd
just moved even further off-screen, and was pleasantly surprised when
D *did* come out after she cracked all five seals ;-)
--
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K)
Baroness Sister-ald level 75 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Sister-ald level 27 Bowazon (USEast)
Dame VK-Sis level 29 Bowazon V&K D2
Swordmaster-ald level 25 Paladin (Open)
Sis-east level 25 Bowazon (Eastern Sun)
Sis-eight level 26 Bowazon (8-player mod)
CotSRSig #16
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Hehe, I'm getting to a similar point with my realm bowazon, except
>with Strafe instead of MS. MS (level 6-8), Critical Strike (>50%),
>Penetrate, Pierce (>50%) and Valkyrie (about level 13 at this stage)
>are pretty much where I want them, so the next few level ups are going
>to go into either Immolation Arrow, Strafe or Guided Arrow (for the
>occasional friendly PvP game). At this stage it looks like the points
>from levels 61 to 70 are most likely going to go into Immolation
>Arrow, but I may have to devote four or five into Strafe as well :-)
Well, if *I* were you, I'd think about maxing out Valk first. Then
again, I have all of two skills maxed, and you know what they are ;-)
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>But as you were saying, isn't your Valkyrie's job to wade into the
>monsters ane draw the mobs into a killing zone? Once the monsters are
>in a killing funnel, MS really starts to excel. Another way it excels
>is by fanning the MS arrow spread into unexplored areas and using the
>telltale mana swirl to locate and kill monsters that are often two or
>three screens away. This is particularly effective in the River of
>Flame and Chaos Sanctuary against Oblivion Knights and their brethren.
>
Yeah, but you know how skittish those lower-level Valks can be ;-)
Actually, even with Valk at level 23, I still find myself yelling
"Where do you think *you're* going" at the Valk an average of once per
game ;-)
>The concentrated damage of Strafe is certainly an excellent tool
>against bosses, but against packs, since the Strafed arrows are
>distributed between multiple targets, the number of shots hitting each
>target is still quite low; the damage produced by Strafe versus MS
>becomes a lot closer, especially now in the post-Strafe nerf days.
>
But MS can't hit a target with more than one arrow, can it? It seems
to me that the weaker MS arrows suffer from the same restrictions
here, and I'd rather get that extra 115% damage on the arrows that
*do* hit, as opposed to just being guaranteed to do lesser damage to
one particular target.
>MS is quite capable of stunlocking creatures even in Hell difficulty,
>so the damage bonus of Strafe isn't addding any value in this case.
>And when you consider that MS typically fires arrows faster than
>Strafe, I'd say keeping creatures stunlocked is easier with MS than it
>is with Strafe.
>
Yeah, but keeping them stunlocked with Strafe is *not* a problem that
I've had ;-)
>These days I'm very much into versatility when it comes to developing
>my bowazons. Rather than choosing *one* skill, I choose a set of
>skills that get the job done. For me, this is currently MS, Ice
>Arrow, Freezing Arrow and Immolation Arrow. Sure, you could say that
>sticking with one uber skill like Strafe is more efficient than
>switching skills (economy of movement and all that), but for me,
>varying your offense is what brings enjoyment to the game. That's
>also the reason why my paladins are currently experimenting with
>various combos of Charge, Zeal, Vengenace, Holy Freeze, Thorns and
>Concentration rather than sticking with one combat skill and one aura.
>
Well, I also use Ice Arrow, which I've gritched about all the extra
points I put into, but don't complain about when I'm using it, and
Immolation Arrow against certain bosses. I'll also use Slow Missiles
and Decoy (the other two skills that I have hot-keyed) on occasion, so
I guess I'm with you on the diversified front ;-)
>Well, herein lies the problem. A level one MS isn't very useful.
>It's only when it gets to level three or beyond that it becomes a
>valuable tool.
Ah, but you forget, even with only one point in MS, when Sis uses it,
it's at level 4, due to the equipment she has. She's played with it on
an occasion or two, and found she can survive using it, but still
hasn't seen any reason to use it over Strafe.
Again, it's great to get your input into this thread, I've been
wondering where you were ;-)
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Didn't I say something like that above? Although, of course, without
>the prejudice against Strafazons ;-)
Me? Prejudiced against Strafazons? You must have me mistake with
somebody else ;-)
But yeah, you did mention something switching to MS against monsters
that haven't yet wandered into your Strafe "sweet spot". You almost
sounded like a person that might have done that a time or two, but
then I realised who I was conversing with.
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Or putting the points into MS after maxing Strafe. Sis *may*
>eventually do this, if she can find a situation where she'd rather use
>MS than Strafe ;-) She doesn't need them to be in a "perfect"
>Strafe-killing zone, as long as they're on-screen they'll fall all too
>quickly to Strafe ;-) She *did* try MS one time when she was working
>on learning the guided arrow skill in the 8-player enhanced mod. One
>of the Wraith-types had moved *way* off into the areas where she
>couldn't go, and she knew if she didn't find a way to eliminate him, D
>wouldn't come out and the whole game would be wasted. As I recall, she
>emptied her mana ball 2-3 times MSing at him, never did hit him, but
>after the third time of going off to the mana shrine that was around
>the corner he disappeared off of the monster radar. I figured he'd
>just moved even further off-screen, and was pleasantly surprised when
>D *did* come out after she cracked all five seals ;-)
Oh sure, quote an example where MS didn't get the job done and yet
make it almost sound like you were giving MS its dues. That's
underhanded, even for a Strafazon ;-)
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>>Hehe, I'm getting to a similar point with my realm bowazon, except
>>with Strafe instead of MS. MS (level 6-8), Critical Strike (>50%),
>>Penetrate, Pierce (>50%) and Valkyrie (about level 13 at this stage)
>>are pretty much where I want them, so the next few level ups are going
>>to go into either Immolation Arrow, Strafe or Guided Arrow (for the
>>occasional friendly PvP game). At this stage it looks like the points
>>from levels 61 to 70 are most likely going to go into Immolation
>>Arrow, but I may have to devote four or five into Strafe as well :-)
>
>Well, if *I* were you, I'd think about maxing out Valk first. Then
>again, I have all of two skills maxed, and you know what they are ;-)
Hmmm, surely if I was going to put points in Strafe, I'd be putting
them there to increase bow damage, which is one of the things you keep
saying Strafe is good for. Hmmm, so points in Strafe, thus doing more
damage and making things die faster, or have a Valkyrie that lasts a
bit longer. Yeah, I can see why I should max Valkyrie first. :-P
Seriously though, I'm finding a level 13 or 14 Valkyrie to be
sufficient in Act 4/Hell. I'm not a big believer in maxing skills
just for the sake of it (which seems to go against the grain of many
character guides which recommend maxing two or three skills,
completely overlooking the fact that most skills really don't reap
large benefits at higher levels), but try to find a nice balance of
skill distributions that makes for an interesting and varied character
while being effective. Because of that, I'm probably going to work
first on pumping an existing low level combat skill (e.g. Immolation
Arrow) rather than working on a skill that already does a good job and
won't benefit much from additional points.
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>Yeah, but you know how skittish those lower-level Valks can be ;-)
>Actually, even with Valk at level 23, I still find myself yelling
>"Where do you think *you're* going" at the Valk an average of once per
>game ;-)
Hehe, so recast her if she gets churlish. Or has the high level skill
made the cost so great that you can't just recast without having to
refill your whole mana ball first? ;-)
>>The concentrated damage of Strafe is certainly an excellent tool
>>against bosses, but against packs, since the Strafed arrows are
>>distributed between multiple targets, the number of shots hitting each
>>target is still quite low; the damage produced by Strafe versus MS
>>becomes a lot closer, especially now in the post-Strafe nerf days.
>But MS can't hit a target with more than one arrow, can it?
>It seems to me that the weaker MS arrows suffer from the same restrictions
>here, and I'd rather get that extra 115% damage on the arrows that
>*do* hit, as opposed to just being guaranteed to do lesser damage to
>one particular target.
Horses for courses, I guess. While the extra damage of Strafe is
nice, it's doesn't seem huge in general play. Against packs, you've
got to weigh up hitting each of many targets two or three times versus
shooting three volleys of Multiple Shot in near the same timespan.
Against bosses, Strafe does win hands down because of the increased
damage; the extra damage becomes especially significant when facing
large HP bosses such as Izual. But then again, I find Ice Arrow an
effective boss killer, even at lower levels. In a tossup between
Strafe's extra damage or Ice Arrow's slowing effect, I think I prefer
fighting bosses that can't move very fast :-)
>>MS is quite capable of stunlocking creatures even in Hell difficulty,
>>so the damage bonus of Strafe isn't addding any value in this case.
>>And when you consider that MS typically fires arrows faster than
>>Strafe, I'd say keeping creatures stunlocked is easier with MS than it
>>is with Strafe.
>Yeah, but keeping them stunlocked with Strafe is *not* a problem that
>I've had ;-)
Oh, I thought you were saying that this was an advantage of Strafe
over MS. I was merely pointing out that it isn't.
Stephen van Ham
wrote:
>>Well, it'd be nice if Blizz would just add that capability to the game,
>>like that mod you use does. That's what I was dreaming of- solo
>>8-player games, on the realms (as an option).
>
>Yeah, that *would* be nice, but then *no one* would play open games,
>which means the PKs would have no one to pick on, which is not a
>situation that Blizzard wants :-(
Hey, you made a good point here. Stop it at once! ;-)
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>That's only about 12% difference, and you've still got another eight
>skill points up your sleeve.
To use on what, though, that would up that max damage? MS isn't going
to. I think I'll still take that extra 12%, but then you knew that,
didn't you? ;-)
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Of course, over the course of time you'd eventually have enough skill
>points to boost Strafe *and* CS near level 20, but early on, it might
>be better to boost Strafe to, say, level 5, and then boost Critical
>Strike some extra levels early on.
Perhaps. I was going to argue that it would have taken more than 4
more skill points for Sis to get CS up to that level, but I,
apparently unlike you, had forgotten to add in the +3 from equipment
;-)
Question for you on CS, though. Is the chance factored separately for
each arrow, or each volley? What I mean here is that if one arrow from
a volley of Strafe or MS does critical damage, will they all, or are
they calculated separately?
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Oh sure, quote an example where MS didn't get the job done and yet
>make it almost sound like you were giving MS its dues. That's
>underhanded, even for a Strafazon ;-)
I never claimed I played fair ;-) Seriously, though, I think the point
I was trying to make was more along the lines of, even though I don't
consider MS to be worth the point(s?) I put into it, I *will* still
try to use it when I can see a good reason to. I *think* I would have
still told the same tale if I'd wiped him out with MS ;-)
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>But yeah, you did mention something switching to MS against monsters
>that haven't yet wandered into your Strafe "sweet spot". You almost
>sounded like a person that might have done that a time or two, but
>then I realised who I was conversing with.
Right you are. I've yet to have a character use MS once they've gotten
Strafe ;-)
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Hmmm, surely if I was going to put points in Strafe, I'd be putting
>them there to increase bow damage, which is one of the things you keep
>saying Strafe is good for. Hmmm, so points in Strafe, thus doing more
>damage and making things die faster, or have a Valkyrie that lasts a
>bit longer. Yeah, I can see why I should max Valkyrie first. :-P
>
>Seriously though, I'm finding a level 13 or 14 Valkyrie to be
>sufficient in Act 4/Hell. I'm not a big believer in maxing skills
>just for the sake of it (which seems to go against the grain of many
>character guides which recommend maxing two or three skills,
>completely overlooking the fact that most skills really don't reap
>large benefits at higher levels), but try to find a nice balance of
>skill distributions that makes for an interesting and varied character
>while being effective. Because of that, I'm probably going to work
>first on pumping an existing low level combat skill (e.g. Immolation
>Arrow) rather than working on a skill that already does a good job and
>won't benefit much from additional points.
Good points, but I had forgotten to include my reasoning in my post. I
figured you might *need* those extra points in Valk because you're
approaching the point where you're going to need to be playing in
8-player games to get any decent experience and, even with the
increased hit points Valks get in 8-player games, they still fall all
too quickly against some bosses, especially Lightning Enhanced ones.
And as Sis found out all too painfully in her last run, when the Valk
goes down there's a very real danger that *you* will go down,
especially if you're occupied elsewhere and don't notice it right
away. Then again, as you well know, I've always played very
defensively, all of my Bowazons except Sis are still using the armor
that gives them the highest DR, in hopes that Blizzard will eventually
fix that bug ;-)
ald
<sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Hehe, so recast her if she gets churlish. Or has the high level skill
>made the cost so great that you can't just recast without having to
>refill your whole mana ball first? ;-)
>
No, unless she's been hit by a Mana Burning boss, which doesn't happen
very often anymore, Sis almost always has enough mana to recast her.
Heck, I've recast her by accident several times, like after fighting
Izzy where she's on the right button, and been able to right after the
first cast. And if she can't, one Strafe will take care of the mana
problem pronto ;-)
>Horses for courses, I guess. While the extra damage of Strafe is
>nice, it's doesn't seem huge in general play.
It does to me. I again refer to the time, *much* earlier in her
career, when Sis was down in the Chaos Sanctuary and ran out of mana
for Strafe. The monsters were laughing at her, actually *gaining* hit
points as she was hitting them with Normal Attack, trying to build up
the mana.
>gainst packs, you've
>got to weigh up hitting each of many targets two or three times versus
>shooting three volleys of Multiple Shot in near the same timespan.
But against a pack, especially one that you're Valk has already picked
up and is grouping for you, there is very little difference in the
time needed for one shot of Strafe as opposed to MS. If the spread of
monsters is at a 45 degree angle or less, the only time difference I
see is the time it takes her to grunt before shooting Strafe, which is
eliminated on subsequent shots if you're holding down the right button
;-)
>Against bosses, Strafe does win hands down because of the increased
>damage; the extra damage becomes especially significant when facing
>large HP bosses such as Izual. But then again, I find Ice Arrow an
>effective boss killer, even at lower levels. In a tossup between
>Strafe's extra damage or Ice Arrow's slowing effect, I think I prefer
>fighting bosses that can't move very fast :-)
>
Actually, that's usually the tactic that I use, too, I just use Strafe
to whittle it down to him and me first. And, of course, you forgot to
mention the Immolation Arrows we both use when the Valk has him parked
effectively ;-) For me it's not necessarily the slowing effect, but
the speed that makes me switch over to Ice Arrow. Of course, the fact
that I need that right button for the Valk, especially against
Heyfatso, might factor in there too ;-)
>Oh, I thought you were saying that this was an advantage of Strafe
>over MS. I was merely pointing out that it isn't.
Nope, I think it was Marshall who brought up the stunlocking issue, my
only argument was that Strafe was no worse than MS at it ;-)
Ingo Jankowski
>
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:55:08 +0100, Ingo Jankowski
> <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
> >Ah well, my last Rune Imbue still gave me crap, but the 56 damage bow at
> >least has SIAS now :) Which is exceptionally nice with MS :)
Sorry, this was pretty nonsense. Firstly, I actually use that bow. Why?
It doesn't have SIAS but IAS!
> Why a Rune instead of a Gothic?
1) I haven't found a gothic worth keeping yet.
2) I am lacking the required strength for a gothic
3) A Rune is faster than a Gothic
4) My Rune has IAS
Now get yourself an IAS Rune, put on Goldwrap and fire a couple of
salvoes... Imagine a fire hose you point at the oncoming packs... That
combo is just *fast*. Now use a lvl 8 (I upgraded ;)) MS. Pure fun.
Shower them with arrows.... its like sandblasting those skeletons.
I thought I'd use strafe for it's added damage. With plus of 100% to
total damage there wasn't really much of an alternative. Now, with a
plus of perhaps a quarter to total damage, I tend to prefer MS over
strafe for the packs. That leaves me with bosses. I thought about using
strafe here, but reconsidered, when I fought Diablo/NM the other day.
Guided Arrow does the same added amount of damage as does strafe, and
well, its a guided arrow. And then, I found that I used IA quite a lot
as my left attack. So I am going to push this one first. At level 20, it
does something aroung 80 cold damage, which is close to the added max
for strafe with a good bow.
Having a relatively low damage bow (max 55), I like chilling and
freezing effects a lot, as you can imagine. But, damage wise, she does
quite well now in Act II Hell. What I really look for now is an IAS Rune
with decent damage...
As for the speed thing: I didn't spend a lot of thought on it until I
used that IAS bow... Now its something I wouldn't like to miss ever
again.
I read the speedazon guide mentioned somewhere in this thread, and found
I liked it very much. As it is now, I almost always have two salvoes in
flight at any time I attack; that is an awesome sight, and I happily
sacrifice some of the damage for it.
RGT
a7...@erols.com wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:43:33 +1300, Stephen van Ham
> <sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >Oh sure, quote an example where MS didn't get the job done and yet
> >make it almost sound like you were giving MS its dues. That's
> >underhanded, even for a Strafazon ;-)
>
> I never claimed I played fair ;-) Seriously, though, I think the point
> I was trying to make was more along the lines of, even though I don't
> consider MS to be worth the point(s?) I put into it, I *will* still
> try to use it when I can see a good reason to. I *think* I would have
> still told the same tale if I'd wiped him out with MS ;-)
I've been staying out of this *discussion* so far, but I thought I'd
add a comment here. Of course you know my Open Talabeth is a Strafezon
but West Talabeth has been using MS mostly so far. I've put about 5
points into MS which helped immensly getting through the first 24
levels and she's still using it most of the time now. She has 1 or 2
points in Strafe (I forget) and I've been using it a bit more lately,
mostly for Act 3 where it's a bit harder to target all those guys
hiding in the woods. The Flayers tend to run past you and surround you
rather than form up nicely around the cowardly Valk.
That said, I cleared the first room of Mephisto's lair last night with
MS a lot easier than I could have with Strafe. I had to walk in a bit
to draw them all in from the second room since they didn't expect me
and hadn't set up the stair trap yet. But after retreating quickly I
MS'd most of them from off screen rather quickly. Strafe wouldn't have
targeted most of them at that range. Of course I used GA to clear most
of the rest of the level from safety. I learned the cowards way from
my Valk.
I'm keeping them both hot-keyd and switching fairly frequently lately.
--
Baron Krasher - Level 61 Barbarian (D2 Open)
Baroness Talabeth - Level 59 Bowazon (D2 Open)
Lord Renark - Level 62 Paladin (D2 Open)
Lady Joule-VK - Level 36 Sorceress (D2 Open - V&K mod)
Dame Talabeth - Level 34 Bowazon (USWest)
BuenGuard - Level 22 Paladin (USWest)
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Marshall
"ald" <10317...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3a8f9abb...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:50:35 +1300, Stephen van Ham
> <sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >Hmmm, surely if I was going to put points in Strafe, I'd be putting
> >them there to increase bow damage, which is one of the things you keep
> >saying Strafe is good for. Hmmm, so points in Strafe, thus doing more
> >damage and making things die faster, or have a Valkyrie that lasts a
> >bit longer. Yeah, I can see why I should max Valkyrie first. :-P
> >
> >Seriously though, I'm finding a level 13 or 14 Valkyrie to be
> >sufficient in Act 4/Hell. I'm not a big believer in maxing skills
> >just for the sake of it (which seems to go against the grain of many
> >character guides which recommend maxing two or three skills,
> >completely overlooking the fact that most skills really don't reap
> >large benefits at higher levels), but try to find a nice balance of
> >skill distributions that makes for an interesting and varied character
> >while being effective. Because of that, I'm probably going to work
> >first on pumping an existing low level combat skill (e.g. Immolation
> >Arrow) rather than working on a skill that already does a good job and
> >won't benefit much from additional points.
>
> Good points, but I had forgotten to include my reasoning in my post. I
> figured you might *need* those extra points in Valk because you're
> approaching the point where you're going to need to be playing in
> 8-player games to get any decent experience and, even with the
> increased hit points Valks get in 8-player games, they still fall all
> too quickly against some bosses, especially Lightning Enhanced ones.
Hmm, odd- in my experience in realms 8-players, my valk hardly ever
dies... she's like the energizer bunny. But in solo games, she croaks
pretty quick, even at lvl15 or so. Multi-shot LEB's will still do her in
fairly quickly, but she usually lasts pretty well against your average
run-of-the-mill LEB. Just as an aside, the most annoying bosses, to
me, are those damned extra-fast teleporters- particularly of the Venom
Lord variety in Chaos. They have a nasty habit of ignoring my valk,
and chasing my tired zon all over hell 'n gone. They're not so bad when
grouped with several other players, to take the heat off- but when you
get one by yourself, I often just give up on that game.
> And as Sis found out all too painfully in her last run, when the Valk
> goes down there's a very real danger that *you* will go down,
> especially if you're occupied elsewhere and don't notice it right
> away. Then again, as you well know, I've always played very
> defensively, all of my Bowazons except Sis are still using the armor
> that gives them the highest DR, in hopes that Blizzard will eventually
> fix that bug ;-)
Um, I don't think that's a bug- the stats screen display of your true
%-chance to be hit was bugged, up till 1.04... but I don't think the
level of protection you actually get from armor, was ever intended
to be all that great. My lvl77 bowazon has around 390 defense,
which comes to about a 78% likelihood of being hit, by lvl77 monsters.
If I wore all the heavier armor items to try to get up to 700+ def, my
poor gal would be weighted down like a draught-mule, and slower
than heck (with lousy stamina drain, too). And I'd still have well over
a 50% chance of being hit... not worth it, at all. The real danger to
all characters, is from the Champions and bosses- they have a vastly
advanced AR and damage output, beyond that of the average monsters.
And with their 4x to 6x AR, any armor your zon could wear, is pretty
meaningless against it. Barbs with 1000+ armor and maxed iron-skin
are the ony chars who really benefit from raw armor thickness- shields
are the true defense, for everyone else... and they don't do much for
us bowazons ;-) The only reason I wear Goldskins, is for the +30 all
resists- if I had better resist stuff, I'd gladly dump it again for a Grey-
form or Twitchthroe. You can run neck and neck with even the extra-
fast bosses, when you travel light. And that's my preferred MO, speed
of foot, and high firing speed. Someday...
-Marshall
Marshall
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:59:07 +1300, Stephen van Ham
> <sva...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >Oh, I thought you were saying that this was an advantage of Strafe
> >over MS. I was merely pointing out that it isn't.
>
> Nope, I think it was Marshall who brought up the stunlocking issue, my
> only argument was that Strafe was no worse than MS at it ;-)
Um, if all your targets are neatly arrayed in less than a 45 degree
area, strafe is no worse, for stunlocking. If they are scattered out at
all, strafe truly sucks, for stunlocking. Just *one* critter being off in
a different direction, necessitating the strafe animation to swing
around off of that 45 degree area, blows any stunlocking completely
out of the water. And with the much wider autotargetting radius of
1.05 strafe, this occurs even more often.
-Marshall
Marshall
"Ingo Jankowski" <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in message
news:3A7EAEBC...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de...
>
> > Why a Rune instead of a Gothic?
> 1) I haven't found a gothic worth keeping yet.
> 2) I am lacking the required strength for a gothic
> 3) A Rune is faster than a Gothic
> 4) My Rune has IAS
I agree with you about the wonders of a good speed bow setup,
but just FYI, a bare Rune bow is no faster than a bare Gothic.
They are both just 'Fast Attack Speed'. A Double Bow, on the
other hand, is Very Fast by default. If you ever find a rare Double
bow with King's Merciless etc., and IAS, then add Goldwrap and
SIAS gloves... hoooohaaaw! :-P You'd have 3 or 4 volleys on-
screen at the same time. Just pack lots of arrows... ;)
-Marshall
Marshall
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 09:21:58 GMT, "Marshall" <mars...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I bought Fletchie a plain socketed bow and slapped some chips in it,
> >right off the reel... after finding enough dough in the blood moor/cave
> >area. She never looked back. But, she did have an older brother necro,
> >so she never hurt for hand-me-downs, either <grin>.
>
> Now, this is something that I don't do. None of my Open characters
> share finds. The fact that I'm totally inept with a trainer has
> nothing (ok, little) to do with it, it's just that that's a little too
> close to cheating for my tastes. I don't feel overly strongly about
> this, I mean I wouldn't refuse to play with your characters because
> you did this, or anything remotely similar, it's just the way I feel
> for the characters that I play SP. They're mostly Single Player
> characters, so they should stick with what *they* find, not what my
> other characters find. I'm also a bit of a hypocrite on this, since I
> see nothing wrong with them taking items that *other* people have
> given them, only with taking items from *my* other characters. Ok, so
> I'm weird, but at least I admit it ;-)
Hehe, I'll be nice (slaps typing-fingers... be nice now, y'hear? ;) From my
point of view, the D2 universe is not a lone-wolf land, at least for my
chars- it is entirely possible to enjoy the benefits of other 'sibling'
chars,
the generosity of fellow wanderers, trading, and assistance in arming
yourself from what you could consider fellow 'villagers' or clan/tribe
members. Would real-life heroes not have assistance from their blooded
and more experienced brothers? Would your tribe necessarily send you
out naked and practically unarmed, to defeat the very forces of hell??
Nay, I say :-) But I respect your chosen world-view, as well- inconsistent
as it is <LOL>. (<slap!> naughty fingers!!)
> Well, in normal (not 8-player) games, I only pack one extra quiver of
> arrows, as I need the extra room for items that I've found down below
> (Sis had her pack so full before she started playing the 8-player
> enhanced mod that, even with dropping a whole bunch of stuff in town,
> she still could only pick up one or two items before she had to go
> back to town). That habit can run you into *serious* trouble in the
> 8-player mods, as I'm sure you can understand. And hitting the TP when
> you see that crossed-arrows icon is fine, unless you're in the middle
> of a battle with an extra-fast boss, a situation that I'm all too
> familiar with ;-)
I've got tp hotkeyed, and have gotten pretty good at casting it
ahead of me on the run, and ducking into it just ahead of those
pesky extra-fasts ;-) Not usually because I need more arrows,
usually because the barstids are also teleporters, and they're
just too much trouble (and danger) to mess with by myself,
when I run into them alone in 8-player games. As for pack-space,
sounds like you need to break down and make a mule or two.
Don't need trainers or mods, to have a little extra storage space.
> >Well, it'd be nice if Blizz would just add that capability to the game,
> >like that mod you use does. That's what I was dreaming of- solo
> >8-player games, on the realms (as an option).
> >
>
> Yeah, that *would* be nice, but then *no one* would play open games,
> which means the PKs would have no one to pick on, which is not a
> situation that Blizzard wants :-(
I've thought about that issue, too... it probably would end up creating
more games being run at one time, than the current way things are
done- whether that would create worse lag, I don't know. More games,
but less data being processed/transferred, from most of them. As to
the fate of PK's from such a thing occurring, I could really care less.
I think there'd still be plenty of unsuspecting meat for them, either
way. There are a lot of dueling games at any given time, so they
wouldn't have any difficulty finding pvp games, where they *belong*.
It still pisses me off that Blizz thinks it's 'cool' to allow
juvenile-delin-
quent serial-killers-in-training the unfettered ability to ruin anybody's
gaming experience, any time they please. F!ck 'em.
> >I make use of the public 8-player games all the way through, in
> >each difficulty. I'll work the quests in pwd solo games, fairly
> >quickly- until I get to a certain point. Then I'll go back to a
> >favored feeding ground area in the 8-players, to power-level for
> >a spell, until my char catches up to the curve for the next push.
> >Much faster, that way- but putting up with PK's, elbowing barbs,
> >cleaned-out levels... makes it a chore, sometimes.
>
> Yeah, I could see that. I don't know, again it's a personal quirk, but
> I *refuse* to play in Open games. It's probably due to my first
> experience on BattleNet, which I've rambled on about *more* than
> enough times already, but I *will not* give the PKs a chance at me ;-)
Well, I've been pk'ed twice, in the months I've been playing public on
realms, and while not enjoyable, it hasn't kept me from doing what I
wish to do. Both times were with lower level chars, so when I'm not
too strong yet, I'll just leave a game, if one gets in the area. Once you
get to a higher level of strength and ability, it's very rare that a pk will
try to tackle one or two bowazons... the last couple of times somebody
went hostile on me, I was working Chaos with a teammate bowazon-
it was hilarious to see a pk slinking around the periphery of our map-
vision, but never brave enough to come close enough to risk two 400+
damage fans of MS... hehe. He took off before long- much safer to find
some helpless lvl9's to beat his meat with, I guess. Once you get strong
enough to defend yourself against pk's, they're bearable. But before
then, they're an annoying pain in the ass (which is their whole purpose,
I'm sure).
> >I did too, witness my current bow of choice. But if I can ever get one
> >with speed, that comes even close to the damage of my current one...
> >high clover.
> >
>
> Agreed, and add in cold damage to the mix and I'd be *really* happy
> ;-)
Well, I finally gambled a decent Eye yesterday, with 11-second cold
time... so I've been using it with Fletchie. Even in H/A4, when com-
bined with FA, it keeps 'em frozen for the full two seconds- pretty
sweet. I'm down to just my gloves for speed (had to swap out the
goldwrap for a rare plated belt, because of lost resists on the ammy),
and my lightning res took a moderate hit, but it's working pretty good-
just a tad slower.
> >Was it in relation to the damage-per-second, factoring in the innate
> >speed of the Double, then adding IAS and extra speed from gloves,
> >belt, twitch? Yeah, read that guide, I believe. Very interesting. If you
> >ever came across a King's Merciless IAS Double bow, would be inter-
> >esting to give it a test drive... Double's are Very Fast to start with-
> >add 5x speed from mods/items, and look out. Even though they would
> >have less damage than an equivalent Rune or Goth, the blazing speed
> >would put them right into the ballpark, damage-per-second wise. And
> >everything would be stunlocked bigtime, that you laid into.
> > -Marshall
> >
>
> I don't know, I didn't get a chance to check the link, but that sounds
> like what the poster was describing. I would assume that the guide
> urged you to use MS, too, since it's faster, right? ;-)
Actually, I don't remember it getting into skill types, at all- just
preached the wonders of super-fast firing speed, from which all
attack-types can benefit. Back when I played Open/solo, after I
beat Hell diff with my old zon, I used D2Edit to twink her items
up with, just to see what she could really do, with all the best
wizz-bang gear- an IAS gothic, SIAS gloves, and Goldwrap...
let me tell ya, with either MS or Strafe, nothing survived long :-)
-Marshall
Kenneth Lantrip
following:
>I spent most of the first four months of my D2 time playing solo, so
>I can relate to that style of play, pretty well- I was a cautious type,
>and rarely faced monsters from multiple directions, either. Probably
>why I was such a big strafe fan, back then ;-) Now that I major in
>realms multiplayer, I've learned to appreciate the need for being
>ready for anything, anytime- your partner and their valk/minions
>kicking up critters right and left is one thing... but with four or
>five lone-wolves marauding around the heart of chaos sanc, popping
>seals unbeknownst to you, then fleeing past you with an extra-fast
>boss pack in tow, while you're already engaged in a furball with
>the Vizier or some such... heh, you get the picture ;-) There is no
>such thing as safe, measured, cautious gameplay, in most multiplayer
>games. You can play as safe as you know how, and you'll still see
>lots of situations where it just don't matter- you're going to be hang-
>ing off a cliff by only your jock-strap, all too often <LOL>.
LOL
That was an excellent read! I really enjoyed that.
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Sorry, this was pretty nonsense. Firstly, I actually use that bow. Why?
>It doesn't have SIAS but IAS!
>
>> Why a Rune instead of a Gothic?
>1) I haven't found a gothic worth keeping yet.
>2) I am lacking the required strength for a gothic
>3) A Rune is faster than a Gothic
>4) My Rune has IAS
>
All very good reason, but imbuing a Rune? The odds against finding a
decent Gothic are *so* bad, I wouldn't waste an imbue on anything
else, but maybe that's just me ;-)
>Now get yourself an IAS Rune, put on Goldwrap and fire a couple of
>salvoes... Imagine a fire hose you point at the oncoming packs... That
>combo is just *fast*. Now use a lvl 8 (I upgraded ;)) MS. Pure fun.
>Shower them with arrows.... its like sandblasting those skeletons.
>
The comparison that comes to mind with Strafe and my Gothic is more
like machine-gunning them, but I *do* know the feeling ;-)
>I thought I'd use strafe for it's added damage. With plus of 100% to
>total damage there wasn't really much of an alternative. Now, with a
>plus of perhaps a quarter to total damage, I tend to prefer MS over
>strafe for the packs. That leaves me with bosses. I thought about using
>strafe here, but reconsidered, when I fought Diablo/NM the other day.
>Guided Arrow does the same added amount of damage as does strafe, and
>well, its a guided arrow. And then, I found that I used IA quite a lot
>as my left attack. So I am going to push this one first. At level 20, it
>does something aroung 80 cold damage, which is close to the added max
>for strafe with a good bow.
Not a bad plan, but one small problem. Ice Arrow will do the same kind
of damage when you have it maxed, but only against *one* monster
(unless you get lucky with Pierce and monster alignment. Sis-eight is
currently playing with that unique bow that supposedly always pierces,
it's working ok in the Arcane Sanctuary, but she sure wishes she
hadn't left her cold damage bow in one of her games, 'cause I have a
feeling she's going to need it in the later stages :-( ). Strafe, when
maxed, will do that kind of damage to 90% of the critters on the
screen. Just something to think about ;-)
Again, though, I also have a tendency to use Ice Arrow once it's down
to just the boss and me, especially the uber-bosses. Guided Arrow
seems to be working fine for me with only 1 (+3) point(s) in it, I
might raise that one if I really can't find anything else to put
points into (a situation that will fast approach if I decide not to
add to MS). Ice Arrow also works quite well, and I only have 6 (again,
+3) points in that one. Different strokes, I guess ;-)
>Having a relatively low damage bow (max 55), I like chilling and
>freezing effects a lot, as you can imagine. But, damage wise, she does
>quite well now in Act II Hell. What I really look for now is an IAS Rune
>with decent damage...
>
>As for the speed thing: I didn't spend a lot of thought on it until I
>used that IAS bow... Now its something I wouldn't like to miss ever
>again.
>I read the speedazon guide mentioned somewhere in this thread, and found
>I liked it very much. As it is now, I almost always have two salvoes in
>flight at any time I attack; that is an awesome sight, and I happily
>sacrifice some of the damage for it.
And again, different strokes. I'd rather have one salvo that does
almost 4 times the bow damage flying than two weaker ones, but maybe
that's just me ;-)
ald
wrote:
>Hehe, I'll be nice (slaps typing-fingers... be nice now, y'hear? ;) From my
>point of view, the D2 universe is not a lone-wolf land, at least for my
>chars- it is entirely possible to enjoy the benefits of other 'sibling'
>chars,
>the generosity of fellow wanderers, trading, and assistance in arming
>yourself from what you could consider fellow 'villagers' or clan/tribe
>members. Would real-life heroes not have assistance from their blooded
>and more experienced brothers? Would your tribe necessarily send you
>out naked and practically unarmed, to defeat the very forces of hell??
>Nay, I say :-) But I respect your chosen world-view, as well- inconsistent
>as it is <LOL>. (<slap!> naughty fingers!!)
>
The inconsistency I readily admit to. I don't know, maybe it's the
challenge I'm after, I'll let you know how much of that is missing
once I get back to playing Sis-West ;-) The other factor may be just
plain revenge on Sis's part: Since she was my first character, and
played so long before I started another, she didn't have any help, so
she refuses to give it ;-) And the thing is, they *do* send you out
naked and practically unarmed, isn't that the way your first character
started?
>I've got tp hotkeyed, and have gotten pretty good at casting it
>ahead of me on the run, and ducking into it just ahead of those
>pesky extra-fasts ;-) Not usually because I need more arrows,
>usually because the barstids are also teleporters, and they're
>just too much trouble (and danger) to mess with by myself,
>when I run into them alone in 8-player games. As for pack-space,
>sounds like you need to break down and make a mule or two.
>Don't need trainers or mods, to have a little extra storage space.
>
Difficult to make a mule in a SP game ;-) As for TP, I of course also
have it hot-keyed, but in the relatively rare situations where I'm
running, I'm usually thinking about trying to get to a safer firing
zone, except for situations like this morning when Sis-eight once
again ran out of arrows in the middle of a fight ("let me just grab
that gold before I go up, oh, one more critter appeared, I can take
him with the arrows I have left", unfortunately he had brothers ;-) ).
However, another trait I readily admit to is being pig-headed, once I
start to fire at a monster I'm determined to get the experience points
from him, even when it ends up costing me experience points ;-(
>I've thought about that issue, too... it probably would end up creating
>more games being run at one time, than the current way things are
>done- whether that would create worse lag, I don't know. More games,
>but less data being processed/transferred, from most of them. As to
>the fate of PK's from such a thing occurring, I could really care less.
>I think there'd still be plenty of unsuspecting meat for them, either
>way. There are a lot of dueling games at any given time, so they
>wouldn't have any difficulty finding pvp games, where they *belong*.
>It still pisses me off that Blizz thinks it's 'cool' to allow
>juvenile-delin-
>quent serial-killers-in-training the unfettered ability to ruin anybody's
>gaming experience, any time they please. F!ck 'em.
>
My feelings exactly, but unfortunately not Blizzard's :-(
>Well, I've been pk'ed twice, in the months I've been playing public on
>realms, and while not enjoyable, it hasn't kept me from doing what I
>wish to do. Both times were with lower level chars, so when I'm not
>too strong yet, I'll just leave a game, if one gets in the area. Once you
>get to a higher level of strength and ability, it's very rare that a pk will
>try to tackle one or two bowazons... the last couple of times somebody
>went hostile on me, I was working Chaos with a teammate bowazon-
>it was hilarious to see a pk slinking around the periphery of our map-
>vision, but never brave enough to come close enough to risk two 400+
>damage fans of MS... hehe. He took off before long- much safer to find
>some helpless lvl9's to beat his meat with, I guess. Once you get strong
>enough to defend yourself against pk's, they're bearable. But before
>then, they're an annoying pain in the ass (which is their whole purpose,
>I'm sure).
>
Undoubtedly ;-) The quick synopsis of that first BNet experience was
that I started my own games, got PKed 3 or 4 times in less than 15
minutes (the last one in town is what my memory says) and left
BattleNet, swearing I'd never return. I didn't, until Justus was
formed ;-)
>Well, I finally gambled a decent Eye yesterday, with 11-second cold
>time... so I've been using it with Fletchie. Even in H/A4, when com-
>bined with FA, it keeps 'em frozen for the full two seconds- pretty
>sweet. I'm down to just my gloves for speed (had to swap out the
>goldwrap for a rare plated belt, because of lost resists on the ammy),
>and my lightning res took a moderate hit, but it's working pretty good-
>just a tad slower.
>
Dang, *another* keyboard ruined by drool ;-) I sure wish the vendors
would offer an amulet every now and then, 'cause it doesn't look like
that Eye wants to drop for me ;-)
>Actually, I don't remember it getting into skill types, at all- just
>preached the wonders of super-fast firing speed, from which all
>attack-types can benefit. Back when I played Open/solo, after I
>beat Hell diff with my old zon, I used D2Edit to twink her items
>up with, just to see what she could really do, with all the best
>wizz-bang gear- an IAS gothic, SIAS gloves, and Goldwrap...
>let me tell ya, with either MS or Strafe, nothing survived long :-)
> -Marshall
>
Hmm, does the increased speed really help Strafe that much? I haven't
found a bow with that since I got Strafe up to a decent level, and
need the Frosties and the resistances from my belt too much to think
about swapping for speed there. Of course, if I could find a unique
belt that had the 44% lightning and 28% fire resistance (or above) and
increased speed, I'd take that ;-)
ald
>I've been staying out of this *discussion* so far, but I thought I'd
>add a comment here. Of course you know my Open Talabeth is a Strafezon
>but West Talabeth has been using MS mostly so far. I've put about 5
>points into MS which helped immensly getting through the first 24
>levels and she's still using it most of the time now. She has 1 or 2
>points in Strafe (I forget) and I've been using it a bit more lately,
>mostly for Act 3 where it's a bit harder to target all those guys
>hiding in the woods. The Flayers tend to run past you and surround you
>rather than form up nicely around the cowardly Valk.
>
>That said, I cleared the first room of Mephisto's lair last night with
>MS a lot easier than I could have with Strafe. I had to walk in a bit
>to draw them all in from the second room since they didn't expect me
>and hadn't set up the stair trap yet. But after retreating quickly I
>MS'd most of them from off screen rather quickly. Strafe wouldn't have
>targeted most of them at that range. Of course I used GA to clear most
>of the rest of the level from safety. I learned the cowards way from
>my Valk.
>
>I'm keeping them both hot-keyd and switching fairly frequently lately.
Yeah, if the Fusion mod comes out with a 1.05 version (I haven't
checked yet to see if they have, 'cause I still haven't updated) and I
keep playing it, I'm going to *have* to learn to use MS, or there's no
way I'll survive to get to level 32 when I'll get Strafe. I reckon
I'll actually have to take out the Chaos Sanctuary with it, there's no
way I'm waiting until 32 to take out D. As to the hot-keys, though, at
level 34 you can still hot-key both? The way I have them mapped out, I
could spare the hot-key up until level 30, when I need that last one
for Valk ;-)
ald
wrote:
>Um, I don't think that's a bug- the stats screen display of your true
>%-chance to be hit was bugged, up till 1.04... but I don't think the
>level of protection you actually get from armor, was ever intended
>to be all that great. My lvl77 bowazon has around 390 defense,
>which comes to about a 78% likelihood of being hit, by lvl77 monsters.
>If I wore all the heavier armor items to try to get up to 700+ def, my
>poor gal would be weighted down like a draught-mule, and slower
>than heck (with lousy stamina drain, too). And I'd still have well over
>a 50% chance of being hit... not worth it, at all. The real danger to
>all characters, is from the Champions and bosses- they have a vastly
>advanced AR and damage output, beyond that of the average monsters.
>And with their 4x to 6x AR, any armor your zon could wear, is pretty
>meaningless against it. Barbs with 1000+ armor and maxed iron-skin
>are the ony chars who really benefit from raw armor thickness- shields
>are the true defense, for everyone else... and they don't do much for
>us bowazons ;-) The only reason I wear Goldskins, is for the +30 all
>resists- if I had better resist stuff, I'd gladly dump it again for a Grey-
>form or Twitchthroe. You can run neck and neck with even the extra-
>fast bosses, when you travel light. And that's my preferred MO, speed
>of foot, and high firing speed. Someday...
> -Marshall
They fixed the display in 1.04? I didn't know that, I'll have to start
checking that stat again. So it now shows what the chance is despite
the fact that the monsters have about 4 times the AR that they were
supposed to? That was the bug I was referring to ;-) Again, running
isn't much my style, unless the situation gets truly desperate (and,
unfortunately, sometimes even then) I prefer to stand and shoot,
figuring the best defense is a good offense. Of course, the fact that
I'm wearing the highest AC armor that I can (*not* going above about
100 in strength to wear it though, Sis took Strength to 100 for either
the Goldskin or the Silks, I forget which required it, but I hadn't
planned on taking it above the 95 required for the Gothic bow) and
adding one point to Vit on each level up helps a little bit there. And
I *did* say I was talking about the lower level characters, Sis
switches between the Goldskin when she needs the resistances (all the
time now that she's in Hell diff) and the Silks when she doesn't ;-)
ald
wrote:
>Um, if all your targets are neatly arrayed in less than a 45 degree
>area, strafe is no worse, for stunlocking. If they are scattered out at
>all, strafe truly sucks, for stunlocking. Just *one* critter being off in
>a different direction, necessitating the strafe animation to swing
>around off of that 45 degree area, blows any stunlocking completely
>out of the water. And with the much wider autotargetting radius of
>1.05 strafe, this occurs even more often.
> -Marshall
Ok, again I haven't updated yet, so I don't know, but is the
autotargetting range now wider than it was in 1.03? If it's the same,
I can live with that, as I never really got used to the narrower range
in 1.04. As to the stunlocking, you're probably right, but with the
cold damage that Sis has one monster outside of that angle isn't
enough to be a problem, she can still keep all the monsters either
stunned, chilled or both, and I don't think 2 outside can get them out
of the mess, either. 3 or 4 and then another pack coming from another
angle is where she runs into problems, but she can usually fire her
way out of them ;-)
Ingo Jankowski
>
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:46:36 +0100, Ingo Jankowski
> <ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
> All very good reason, but imbuing a Rune? The odds against finding a
> decent Gothic are *so* bad, I wouldn't waste an imbue on anything
> else, but maybe that's just me ;-)
Well, the odds for a Rune imbue are just the same (except that it is way
harder to find a Rune than it is to find a Gothic to imbue), and in the
average damage/sec department, both bows aren't that far from each
other. Depends on play style.
> Not a bad plan, but one small problem. Ice Arrow will do the same kind
> of damage when you have it maxed, but only against *one* monster
Sure. All the minions were killed by MS before ;) so there's just one
sandbrushed monster left ;)
> >As it is now, I almost always have two salvoes in
> >flight at any time I attack; that is an awesome sight, and I happily
> >sacrifice some of the damage for it.
>
> And again, different strokes. I'd rather have one salvo that does
> almost 4 times the bow damage flying than two weaker ones, but maybe
> that's just me ;-)
Right now, my arrows do approx 2.5 times the bow damage (148 dex), but I
am lvl 43 only. But still, 2 salvoes at 2.5 would seem good enough
compared to 1 at 4 (My cellphone is better than yours because its
blue!). hehe ;-)
I experimented a bit with strafe (at lvl 4 now), but I don't seem to get
it right. Especially mana leeching doesn't quite seem to work as it does
with MS, strange as it sounds. I constantly run out of mana when
strafing, and switch to MS to refill ;) Weird...
Ingo Jankowski
> I agree with you about the wonders of a good speed bow setup,
> but just FYI, a bare Rune bow is no faster than a bare Gothic.
Hmmm, according to chaos sanc, but not according to theamazonbasin.com's
(or was it .net?) speedazon guide. Try it out; I *think* a rune may be
as fast as a SIAS gothic (Just for reference, my SIAS Long War Bow is
listed as "fast" instead of "very fast" as well).
> They are both just 'Fast Attack Speed'. A Double Bow, on the
> other hand, is Very Fast by default.
Double bows are even faster, yes. But their damage, well, you know...
> If you ever find a rare Double
> bow with King's Merciless etc., and IAS, then add Goldwrap and
> SIAS gloves... hoooohaaaw!
I believe that King's and Merciless are mutually exclusive (While King's
and Meteoric aren't). If they weren't, you could get up to 270 (King's
Merciless of Slaughter) damage gothic bows. As a matter of fact, no one
has ever seen one above 170 (King's *or* Merciless of Slaughter),
correct me if i'm wrong.
King's and Meteoric aren't (I have a rare Short War Bow bow with 50
damage: 14 base, +200%, +8 maximum damage, and 262 AR (150 from King's,
the rest from Platinum, a predecessor of Meteoric))
King's Merciless would be a nice thing though ;)))
:-P You'd have 3 or 4 volleys on-
> screen at the same time. Just pack lots of arrows... ;)
Nice thought. With that, even if you could do enough damage on average,
you 'd still pay twice the mana, and would have to have doubke the mana
leech to make up for it. :)
Still, must be an impressive sight. Actually, the fastest you can get is
with Witherstring (fastest bow available), SIAS gloves, Goldwrap and
Twitchthroe.
dann...@my-deja.com
in...@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de wrote:
> Marshall wrote:
>
> > I agree with you about the wonders of a good speed bow setup,
> > but just FYI, a bare Rune bow is no faster than a bare Gothic.
> Hmmm, according to chaos sanc, but not according to
theamazonbasin.com's
> (or was it .net?) speedazon guide. Try it out; I *think* a rune may be
> as fast as a SIAS gothic (Just for reference, my SIAS Long War Bow is
> listed as "fast" instead of "very fast" as well).
>
> > They are both just 'Fast Attack Speed'. A Double Bow, on the
> > other hand, is Very Fast by default.
> Double bows are even faster, yes. But their damage, well, you know...
>
> > If you ever find a rare Double
> > bow with King's Merciless etc., and IAS, then add Goldwrap and
> > SIAS gloves... hoooohaaaw!
> I believe that King's and Merciless are mutually exclusive (While
King's
> and Meteoric aren't). If they weren't, you could get up to 270 (King's
> Merciless of Slaughter) damage gothic bows. As a matter of fact, no
one
> has ever seen one above 170 (King's *or* Merciless of Slaughter),
> correct me if i'm wrong.
>
This is another newsgroup myth. The basis of this myth is a
misunderstanding of how the prefixes are applied. Kings gives you 181-
200% Damage and Merciless gives you 181-200% Damage. People naturally
assume that a King's Merciless give you 362%-400% Damage. This is
incorrect.
Diablo Math says that a 2 181-200% Damage (From Kings and Merciless)
gives you 262-300% Damage.
There is no way to get to 170 with a Kings *or* Merciless (which takes
you to 100 Damage with a Gothic) of Slaughter (+20 Damage). But a
Kings Merciless (Takes you to 150 Max) of Slaughter (+20) gan get you
to 170. I'm pretty familiar with Kings, as My new Bowazon is suffering
with a Kings Long War Bow (3-23 Base for a Long War Bow and my Kings
does 6-42) until she can trade for an imbuable ChuKoNu or a Gothic Bow.
If you read a King's or Merciless as +(81-100%) it makes a lot more
sense.
However I am sure the myth that King's Merciless will get 400% damage
will live forever.
Stephen van Ham
>This is another newsgroup myth. The basis of this myth is a
>misunderstanding of how the prefixes are applied. Kings gives you 181-
>200% Damage and Merciless gives you 181-200% Damage. People naturally
>assume that a King's Merciless give you 362%-400% Damage. This is
>incorrect...
<>
Hehe, now where were you a few weeks ago when Marshall and I were
trying to convince people of exactly this? :-)
--
Baroness Challesa - level 69 Bowazon (Open)
dann...@my-deja.com
I was probably banging my head against the wall trying to dispel
the "level within 5 levels of your character level" myth that drives me
even more insane :) I now am realistic enough to know that people
would rather hear the myths they like rather than the truth.
Ozmodiar
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:09:13 -0500, "Ozmodiar" <Noe...@all.com> wrote:
>
> >I think you have it backwards. The monsters didn't have 4 times the
AR
> >that they're supposed to. What was displayed incorrectly was your
DR.
> >
>
> Are you sure? It's not that I don't think it's possible that I can be
> wrong, God knows I am often enough, but I'm pretty sure that's the way
> I read it in the Lurker Lounge.
I'm sure. However, I *did* type it incorrectly. Your DR display is
correct, but the % To Be Hit was wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't remember
exactly where I came by this information. Can anyone back it up or
disprove it???
Ozmodiar
Marshall
> Marshall wrote:
>
> > I agree with you about the wonders of a good speed bow setup,
> > but just FYI, a bare Rune bow is no faster than a bare Gothic.
>
> Hmmm, according to chaos sanc, but not according to theamazonbasin.com's
> (or was it .net?) speedazon guide. Try it out; I *think* a rune may be
> as fast as a SIAS gothic (Just for reference, my SIAS Long War Bow is
> listed as "fast" instead of "very fast" as well).
The Double Bow is the last exceptional bow (as you move from the
wimpier ones on up) that comes with 'Very Fast', in its default form.
All the rest, on up through Rune and Gothic, are only 'Fast', without
any added speed modifiers; see:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2/items/ebows.shtml
The only speed advantage that a Rune holds, over a Gothic, is that
it can benefit from +5 degrees of added speed modifiers (IAS on
bow, SIAS gloves, Goldwrap, Twitchthroe)... whereas a gothic will
not see any speed increase beyond +4 degrees of modification,
from whichever sources. That is what I gleaned from the Speedazon
guide, IIRC.
-Marshall
Marshall
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:16:42 GMT, "Marshall" <mars...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hehe, I'll be nice (slaps typing-fingers... be nice now, y'hear? ;) From
my
> >point of view, the D2 universe is not a lone-wolf land, at least for my
> >chars- it is entirely possible to enjoy the benefits of other 'sibling'
> >chars,
> >the generosity of fellow wanderers, trading, and assistance in arming
> >yourself from what you could consider fellow 'villagers' or clan/tribe
> >members. Would real-life heroes not have assistance from their blooded
> >and more experienced brothers? Would your tribe necessarily send you
> >out naked and practically unarmed, to defeat the very forces of hell??
> >Nay, I say :-) But I respect your chosen world-view, as well-
inconsistent
> >as it is <LOL>. (<slap!> naughty fingers!!)
> >
>
> The inconsistency I readily admit to. I don't know, maybe it's the
> challenge I'm after, I'll let you know how much of that is missing
> once I get back to playing Sis-West ;-) The other factor may be just
> plain revenge on Sis's part: Since she was my first character, and
> played so long before I started another, she didn't have any help, so
> she refuses to give it ;-)
Selfish little wench, anyway... ;-)
> And the thing is, they *do* send you out
> naked and practically unarmed, isn't that the way your first character
> started?
True, my first char started with nothing... but he (necro) was a
kind, loving, generous soul, who couldn't stand to see his younger
siblings risking life and limb with just a pair of diapers and a letter-
opener... family values kinda guy. Never mind his penchant for
eating the dead- merely an eccentricity.
> >I've got tp hotkeyed, and have gotten pretty good at casting it
> >ahead of me on the run, and ducking into it just ahead of those
> >pesky extra-fasts ;-) Not usually because I need more arrows,
> >usually because the barstids are also teleporters, and they're
> >just too much trouble (and danger) to mess with by myself,
> >when I run into them alone in 8-player games. As for pack-space,
> >sounds like you need to break down and make a mule or two.
> >Don't need trainers or mods, to have a little extra storage space.
> >
>
> Difficult to make a mule in a SP game ;-)
Well, sheesh... ya got so many chars scattered all over the land-
scape between open/single/mods/realms, I never know which
is which ;)
> As for TP, I of course also
> have it hot-keyed, but in the relatively rare situations where I'm
> running, I'm usually thinking about trying to get to a safer firing
> zone, except for situations like this morning when Sis-eight once
> again ran out of arrows in the middle of a fight ("let me just grab
> that gold before I go up, oh, one more critter appeared, I can take
> him with the arrows I have left", unfortunately he had brothers ;-) ).
> However, another trait I readily admit to is being pig-headed, once I
> start to fire at a monster I'm determined to get the experience points
> from him, even when it ends up costing me experience points ;-(
Heh, I got cured of such pig-headedness by encountering one too
many teleporting stone-skinned varmints. As Nancy was fond of
saying, sometimes ya just gotta "say no" :-)
> >Well, I've been pk'ed twice, in the months I've been playing public on
> >realms, and while not enjoyable, it hasn't kept me from doing what I
> >wish to do. Both times were with lower level chars, so when I'm not
> >too strong yet, I'll just leave a game, if one gets in the area. Once you
> >get to a higher level of strength and ability, it's very rare that a pk
will
> >try to tackle one or two bowazons... the last couple of times somebody
> >went hostile on me, I was working Chaos with a teammate bowazon-
> >it was hilarious to see a pk slinking around the periphery of our map-
> >vision, but never brave enough to come close enough to risk two 400+
> >damage fans of MS... hehe. He took off before long- much safer to find
> >some helpless lvl9's to beat his meat with, I guess. Once you get strong
> >enough to defend yourself against pk's, they're bearable. But before
> >then, they're an annoying pain in the ass (which is their whole purpose,
> >I'm sure).
> >
>
> Undoubtedly ;-) The quick synopsis of that first BNet experience was
> that I started my own games, got PKed 3 or 4 times in less than 15
> minutes (the last one in town is what my memory says) and left
> BattleNet, swearing I'd never return. I didn't, until Justus was
> formed ;-)
I never did play D1 on bnet, and after reading of all the garbage done
there from posts in AGD, had no desire to. I just played a few odd
games of V&K with Stephen and others off of Kali, before D2 came along.
> >Well, I finally gambled a decent Eye yesterday, with 11-second cold
> >time... so I've been using it with Fletchie. Even in H/A4, when com-
> >bined with FA, it keeps 'em frozen for the full two seconds- pretty
> >sweet. I'm down to just my gloves for speed (had to swap out the
> >goldwrap for a rare plated belt, because of lost resists on the ammy),
> >and my lightning res took a moderate hit, but it's working pretty good-
> >just a tad slower.
> >
>
> Dang, *another* keyboard ruined by drool ;-) I sure wish the vendors
> would offer an amulet every now and then, 'cause it doesn't look like
> that Eye wants to drop for me ;-)
We're gonna hafta get you one of those clear plastic keyboard-
condom thingies, I can see! Do you have a char on West? If so,
I'll give ya the next one I gamble. I get them every so often,
and my zon has hers, so no biggie.
> >Actually, I don't remember it getting into skill types, at all- just
> >preached the wonders of super-fast firing speed, from which all
> >attack-types can benefit. Back when I played Open/solo, after I
> >beat Hell diff with my old zon, I used D2Edit to twink her items
> >up with, just to see what she could really do, with all the best
> >wizz-bang gear- an IAS gothic, SIAS gloves, and Goldwrap...
> >let me tell ya, with either MS or Strafe, nothing survived long :-)
> > -Marshall
> >
>
> Hmm, does the increased speed really help Strafe that much? I haven't
> found a bow with that since I got Strafe up to a decent level, and
> need the Frosties and the resistances from my belt too much to think
> about swapping for speed there. Of course, if I could find a unique
> belt that had the 44% lightning and 28% fire resistance (or above) and
> increased speed, I'd take that ;-)
Yeah, it's too bad you can't get sias on rare belts :-( Bowazons are so
resist-challenged anyway, from not being able to wear a shield. As to
speed helping strafe? Heh, it helps *everything* :-) With +4 degrees
of speed added, a Goth is a veritable machine-gun. The faster you
shoot/hit, the easier they're stunlocked, the faster they die, the less
danger your char gets into. Don't need no steenkin' calculator, to
tally that up :-P
-Marshall
Marshall
Yes, but apparently that 4x monster AR didn't quite add up to
4x the likelihood of your char getting hit... it's more like 2.5-3x,
from my seat-of-the-pants comparisons of the %likelihood-to-be-
hit readouts of 1.03 to 1.04.
> Again, running
> isn't much my style, unless the situation gets truly desperate (and,
> unfortunately, sometimes even then) I prefer to stand and shoot,
> figuring the best defense is a good offense. Of course, the fact that
> I'm wearing the highest AC armor that I can (*not* going above about
> 100 in strength to wear it though, Sis took Strength to 100 for either
> the Goldskin or the Silks, I forget which required it, but I hadn't
> planned on taking it above the 95 required for the Gothic bow) and
> adding one point to Vit on each level up helps a little bit there. And
> I *did* say I was talking about the lower level characters, Sis
> switches between the Goldskin when she needs the resistances (all the
> time now that she's in Hell diff) and the Silks when she doesn't ;-)
Well, I've always preferred to go light, as much as possible- makes for
a damn fast-footed zon, and it's never any problem to cut 'n run from
serious trouble, when necessary. When I used strafe, I often found my-
self in the stand and slug it out mode... and it caused more than one
fatality, due to over-estimating her abilities (or underestimating those
of the onrushing hordes). And when you are in the throes of multiple
strafe-animations whilst surrounded by 30 critters, might as well just
bend over and plant a smooch between yonder cheeks. Sometimes
you can get away with it, but sometimes you can't. With my MS and
fleet-of-foot style, I can dodge out of harm's way in a flash, backtrack
a bit till only a few of the mob are in range, finish them off easily,
then work my way back, quickly killing them a few easy groups at a time.
Saved myself more than a few deaths, that way. With that style, you never
need to stand and slug it out and risk melee death, and you don't need
heavy armor (which truly helps *very* little in melee, no matter how much
dead-weight armor you pile on your zon). Check out the armor worn by
a majority of the bowazons who are over lvl60 on bnet nowadays- you'd
be amazed how many appear 'naked', because they just wear light unique
leather armors like Greyform or Twitchthroe. I'll admit that Goldskins are
nice, if you haven't yet gotten some really good high-resist belt/boots/
jewelry... I wore them in Hell diff, until recently- but since I got some
nicer resists stuff, I ditched the Skins for my old Greyform, and have
been doing very well with it. I particularly love the -3 magic damage,
and +5 life steal, on it. The resists are just a nice bonus.
-Marshall
ald
>I was probably banging my head against the wall trying to dispel
>the "level within 5 levels of your character level" myth that drives me
>even more insane :) I now am realistic enough to know that people
>would rather hear the myths they like rather than the truth.
I can tell you for *sure* that this myth is true, if you're 5 levels
or more *above* the critters that you're fighting. Sis-eight, at level
26, is having a h*ll of a time getting experience points ATM, having
just finally found and disposed of The Summoner in the Arcane
Sanctuary.
ald
>I'm sure. However, I *did* type it incorrectly. Your DR display is
>correct, but the % To Be Hit was wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't remember
>exactly where I came by this information. Can anyone back it up or
>disprove it???
>
>Ozmodiar
>
Well, I can't prove it, but that sounds good enough to me ;-)
Marshall
"Ozmodiar" <Noe...@all.com> wrote in message
news:etLpKPWkAHA.338@cpmsnbbsa09...
You are correct, that the DR readout was correct, but the %-to-be-hit-
likelihood readout was bugged. But the reason that the %-to-be-hit
readout was so low and incorrect, was *because* it failed to factor
in the hidden 4x monster AR that the programmers added into the
game calculations- that was the bug. So you were half right ;-) But
many thought that that extra 4x monster AR meant that your *real*
%-to-be-hit was therefore 4x higher than shown... but when they
fixed the readout bug in 1.04, that percentage only went up by a
factor of ~2 to 3, not 4. I'm not up on the formula the game uses
to figure that percentage with, but there is obviously much more
that factors into it, than just raw armor amount and monster AR.
-Marshall
ald
<ja...@vlsi.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Well, the odds for a Rune imbue are just the same (except that it is way
>harder to find a Rune than it is to find a Gothic to imbue), and in the
>average damage/sec department, both bows aren't that far from each
>other. Depends on play style.
>
Ok, I understand that you believe that a Rune is faster (not saying
you're wrong, I don't know about this. Sis-East has a rare Rune
(another present from Stephen, IIRC), and she doesn't see any
improvement on the attack speed), but what's the damage on a base
Rune? I take it the max is *not* 50, like a Gothic? Again, I'm asking
because I don't know.
And *is* it that harder to find an imbuable Rune? I've had enough
problems finding Gothics that are imbuable to not believe that
anything else is tougher ;-)
>Sure. All the minions were killed by MS before ;) so there's just one
>sandbrushed monster left ;)
>
Why switch? If you're already using Strafe, the boss has been taking
damage while you take out his minions, and is already 3/4 dead ;-)
>Right now, my arrows do approx 2.5 times the bow damage (148 dex), but I
>am lvl 43 only. But still, 2 salvoes at 2.5 would seem good enough
>compared to 1 at 4
148 is base or total? I'm not firing up Sis to check her total dex
(I'd be too tempted to play her), but base according to Charlie's
Trainer is 247, but that doesn't take into account her boots (+9), so
Sis's total is 256. I haven't calculated what that works out to in bow
damage, I'll leave that to you ;-)
>(My cellphone is better than yours because its
>blue!). hehe ;-)
I doubt that, I have a top-end Nokia ;-)
>I experimented a bit with strafe (at lvl 4 now), but I don't seem to get
>it right. Especially mana leeching doesn't quite seem to work as it does
>with MS, strange as it sounds. I constantly run out of mana when
>strafing, and switch to MS to refill ;) Weird...
Very, as I have the *exact* same problem with MS. None of my Bowazon's
except Sis can use it without running out of mana (ok, I admit, all of
them *except* Sis have only one point in it, and I don't think any
have anything that adds to skills), but more than one (Sis plus at
least VK Sis) can Strafe to refill in almost any situation, as long as
there's someone to hit. If you're of the type to edit a character (I'm
not), try maxing out Strafe and see what it can do. When you get it up
into higher levels, it is truly awesome how much damage you can
inflict, with a 90% chance of hitting *every* monster with 2.15 times
the damage. As I said, it's like machine gunning them down, they don't
stand a chance ;-) I can honestly say that Sis hasn't died a death
that wasn't due to overconfidence in at least 15 levels, as in since
*she* was level 60. Overmatched at any point? Not to hear her tell it
;-)
One other thing before I stop rambling. Sis's last run is one of the
reasons why I haven't upgraded (yeah, Randy, I'm finally admitting it
to myself) to 1.05. I'd *love* to give her one more run in 1.04 before
I upgrade, but poor Sis-West may end up deleted if I do. The draw
though of doing 2.15 times the *total* damage one last time is
*awfully* hard to resist, especially when you consider her last run
netted her 13 levels ;-)
PREDATOR
Stephen van Ham wrote:
>
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:06:30 GMT, dann...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >This is another newsgroup myth. The basis of this myth is a
> >misunderstanding of how the prefixes are applied. Kings gives you 181-
> >200% Damage and Merciless gives you 181-200% Damage. People naturally
> >assume that a King's Merciless give you 362%-400% Damage. This is
> >incorrect...
>
> <>
>
> Hehe, now where were you a few weeks ago when Marshall and I were
> trying to convince people of exactly this? :-)
You wouldnt believe the arguments I've had on various channels with ppl
who are convinced 400% can be attained. The worst time was when
Shlonglor came in (IIRC the barb channel, USwest), but wouldnt help me
convince the guy of the correct formula in spite of my requests!
Eventually he got it though, but it was one hell of a struggle to
explain it to him...
dann...@my-deja.com
There is little doubt you can't get experience with low level critters.
What the heck is sis-eight doint in Act 2 still? She should be near
the end of act 3 by now. My 'zon just killed Diablo at L28 on USWest
hardcore, and she had no uniques or rares, just set items (Isenhart
armor and helm) and magic items. My 'zon has been playing solo in
multiplayer realms game and has bought much of her kit at shops.
There is no advantage in leveling with low level monsters, find bigger
boys to kill.
dann...@my-deja.com
It is so maddening that people are so insistent on believing something
that is obviously not true. Find a weapon, any weapon that does more
than 300% base + 20. Let me know when someone sees a 200 Gothic Bow, a
456 Lance or a 320 executioner sword (physical damage).