Trainer for 1.07 and HIF file opener

Cindy

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Nov 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/22/98

to

Raymonds trainer still works with Hellfire. It will tell you some options
are unavailable, and they are, but you can still import/export hif files and
if i'm not mistaken you can still edit some stats on your character (I never
use that part, so I can't say for sure) BUT I do use it to save uniques and
backup my kit, so I know it works. You can get it from Stalkers Cheater's
Paradise, surf to:
http://members.xoom.com/stalkerAE/
or more specifically at this address:
http://members.xoom.com/stalkerAE/File%20Archives.htm

It's Raymonds Beta 5 build 1

IF you are playing Multi player however, on Kali, then only the host of the
game will be able to import files, export works (even though it says it
encounters a slot error, it still saves the file just fine).

--
Wild`
wild...@XXXdatastar.net (you know the routine, remove the XXX to reply)

Game Master wrote in message <3658C003...@ainet.com>...
Anyone have one? Also, does anyone have anything to open HIF item files
for hellfire? Please post a link to them if you can find them please. If a
working link is posted I will give any Diablo/Hellfire info to the first
person.
--
AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why doesn't
anyone do something about it.

ABEN FAQ: http://abenfaq.home.ml.org

E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.

*In young girl voice*
"And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
--Rob Zombie: Hellbilly Deluxe, Track 1

Cindy

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Nov 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/22/98

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Well, sorry to disappoint you Game Master, but I used it today, and
yesterday and the day before, and last week etc. I never said it would
work with Diablo, only Hellfire. You need Stus if you are playing Diablo
1.07. Hellfire 1.01 is what I use, also the Modification V&K2. Raymonds
works fine with both. Try it sometime, just click ok when it tells you it
detects 1.01 and some feature will not work. There are things that will not
work, however import/export, saving characters into .cha and some character
editing works.

--
Wild`
wild...@XXXdatastar.net (you know the routine, remove the XXX to reply)

Game Master wrote in message <3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
I am sorry but..... WRONG! I use Diablo/Hellfire 1.07/1.01A and
Raymond's trainer 5 1 says "Thin works only with shareware 1.00 1.04 and
hellfire". Since I have a higher version of both, it will not work. I asked
Ray if he was going to update to 1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't gotten a
reply.

Charlie

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98

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Game Master wrote in message <3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
I am sorry but..... WRONG! I use Diablo/Hellfire 1.07/1.01A and
Raymond's trainer 5 1 says "Thin works only with shareware 1.00 1.04 and
hellfire". Since I have a higher version of both, it will not work. I asked
Ray if he was going to update to 1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't gotten a
reply.
Cindy wrote:

Raymonds trainer still works with Hellfire.......

She stated that Raymond's trainer would work for Hellfire. She
didn't say it would for Diablo 1.07. You asked in your original post if
anything can open the HIF files, and Raymond's does just that. Her entire
post was for the Hellfire portion of your question. So she was right.
You can go to Stalker's site, or any other cheater site for that
matter, to get a trainer for Diablo 1.07. Stu's trainer is the best IMO,
and Moe's Diablo Sight program is great for spotting obvious cheaters in
public games. Bubba Fatt's trainer works *both* for Diablo 1.07 and
Hellfire 1.01, but it is buggy as hell. Take your pick of what you want to
piddle with.

Charlie

Darren "FX"/Kain

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98

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Erm, ok, I use Diablo 1.07, and Hellfire 1.01, and believe me
Raymonds work's fine with both or them, I use the trainers to save all
my unique's that I come across (long live the messysmitts reaver).

Just do a 'Ok' on the message that tells you that some 'options will be-
disabled', and things will be fine. I've been using Raymonds, since the
thing came out, and haven't experienced, a single problem, even
Stu's Trainer, with Diablo 1.07 works brilliantly.
But just remember that some options in Raymonds, will be disabled,
when using Hellfire 1.01, not that you really need them.
Regards.

********************90% Legit*********************
L42 Warrior - Kain-1 {Self Proclaimed BK}
*****************************************************
sp...@globalnet.co.uk
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/
ICQ No: 16147227
*****************************************************

paladijn

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98

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Game Master wrote:

> I am sorry but..... WRONG! I use Diablo/Hellfire 1.07/1.01A and
> Raymond's trainer 5 1 says "Thin works only with shareware 1.00 1.04
> and hellfire". Since I have a higher version of both, it will not
> work. I asked Ray if he was going to update to 1.07/1.01A a week ago
> and haven't gotten a reply.
>

cheaters suck, and I'm doing something about it..and now I'm a PK

Celleste

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98

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On 24 Nov 1998 03:15:45 GMT, paladijn
<"paladijn"@unforgettable.:).com> wrote:

>cheaters suck, and I'm doing something about it..and now I'm a PK

Ok, maybe I misunderstood you in the post I referenced. My
bad. I just thought you were being misunderstood. Guess
you can't get any clearer than that.

Celleste

ald

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

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On 24 Nov 1998 20:33:54 GMT, cell...@hotmail.nixthis.com (Celleste)
wrote:

No, I read this as him complaining that he's being accused of being a
PK.

ald
"Knowledge is Power"
reply via e-mail to a717 at erols dot com
RealSisterALD (level 32 Rogue)
ald987 (level 20 Warrior)
GandalfTheGreyt (level 12 Sorceror)

Cindy

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

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Hmmm not sure what the problem is Game Master. I'm using a PC, Raymonds
beta 5 build 1 works fine for me on Hellfire and on V&K Hellfire. I'm
gonna ask the obvious but you do have Hellfire running when you open the
trainer? Other than that I would suspect a corrupted exe, have you tried
deleting it and downloading another copy from a reputable site? I know of
at least a dozen other people that use Raymonds for importing and exporting
.hif files with no problems at all, same version as I use. For Diablo I use
Stu's to accomplish the same thing. I'm assuming you are on a PC and not a
Mac, I have NO idea if Ray's works with Macs.

Just for you Game Master I loaded up both MP and SP Hellfire and Raymonds
trainer and this is what I show on the trainer:

Grayed out buttons - Auto load, View, Monster Gererator, Hacks
Working buttons - Save, Restore, Character, Experience, Item, and the Addon
buttons.

wish I knew how to fix your problem, but it does work flawlessly for me ;(

--
Wild`
wild...@XXXdatastar.net (you know the routine, remove the XXX to reply)

Game Master wrote in message <365BA47A...@ainet.com>...
You didn't understand what I said in the first place. Ray's trained
doesn't pick up ANY id code when it launches. Everything is grayed.
Cindy wrote:

Well, sorry to disappoint you Game Master, but I used it today, and
yesterday and the day before, and last week etc. I never said it
would
work with Diablo, only Hellfire. You need Stus if you are playing
Diablo
1.07. Hellfire 1.01 is what I use, also the Modification V&K2.
Raymonds
works fine with both. Try it sometime, just click ok when it tells
you it
detects 1.01 and some feature will not work. There are things that
will not
work, however import/export, saving characters into .cha and some
character
editing works.

--
Wild`
wild...@XXXdatastar.net (you know the routine, remove the XXX to
reply)

Game Master wrote in message <3658CF82...@ainet.com>...

ABEN FAQ: http://abenfaq.home.ml.org

Charlie

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

Cindy wrote in message <73ga9o$pf$0...@dosa.alt.net>...

>Hmmm not sure what the problem is Game Master

He's talking about using Raymonds trainer for Diablo 1.07

Chuckie =P

Charlie

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

Hehehe..the reason I did not post a link is because every post on this NG
that asks about cheats or hacks will pretty much point to the same
place....Stalker's site, which I said in my previous post. His site is
plugged numerous times, but here is the addy again...
http://members.xoom.com/stalkerAE

You won't find BoBaFeTT's Ultimate Piece of Crap there, but other cheat
sites will probably have it up...bugs and all.

Have fun,

Charlie

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

Darren "FX"/Kain wrote in message <73cin6$snv$3...@newnews.global.net.uk>...

>Erm, ok, I use Diablo 1.07, and Hellfire 1.01, and believe me

>Raymonds work's fine with both or them....

Erm, ok. =)~
I have to agree with Game Master on this one. Mine was all greyed out too.

Chuckiepoo

Charlie

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

>No, I read this as him complaining that he's being accused of being a
>PK.

Ummmm, Ald....I don't see anywhere in this entire thread where he was called
a PK. Maybe you can point that out to me and everyone who may be wondering
as well.

ald

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

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On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:35:14 GMT, "Charlie" <vrah...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

OK, one last time, at least until I go away for the Holidays :-)

The reference to him being called a PK wasn't in this thread, but in
the one where he was arguing with Stalker. He wrote the unfortunate
line about cheating when being a PK, which apparently was missing the
word "would", and everyone justifiably took it to mean that he was a
PK. His complaint since then has always been that he's being accused
of being a PK, cheater, etc., which, from the reports of people who've
played with him, he is anything but. As I've said earlier, I believe
that paladjin is suffering from the drawbacks of the medium, and, not
taking that into account, a poor choice of phrasing. We can't see
where statements like this one are meant to be sarcastic, or at least
that's the way that I read them. Charlie, you're a purist, right? Try
to imagine for a minute how angry you would be if all of a sudden
everyone was calling *you* a cheater, and a PK. Your replies might
well be laced with angry sarcasm, which is what I see coming from
paladjin.

Note: I have placed myself in a position here where I'm defending
someone who's attitude I'm not very fond of. I don't know paladjin
from Adam (boy, is that a poor choice of words in here :-) ), and he
has jumped down the throats of a couple of my very good friends.
However, I am trying to see things from his point-of-view, and I can
understand where my replies might not be in their clearest form, if I
were being similiarly accused.

SilverRaven

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

Please stop posting in html. Below is what it looks like to a lot of
us and most of us don't take the time to sift through it to find what
you are saying.

SilverRaven

Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML>
>Nope. Every option is grayed out. What Build/Beta of the trainer do you
>use?
>Darren \"FX\"/Kain wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Erm, ok, I use Diablo 1.07, and Hellfire 1.01, and
>believe me
> Raymonds work's fine with both or them, I use the trainers to save
>all
> my unique's that I come across (long live the messysmitts reaver).
>Just do a 'Ok' on the message that tells you that some 'options will
>be-
> disabled', and things will be fine. I've been using Raymonds, since
>the
> thing came out, and haven't experienced, a single problem, even
> Stu's Trainer, with Diablo 1.07 works brilliantly.
> But just remember that some options in Raymonds, will be disabled,
> when using Hellfire 1.01, not that you really need them.
> Regards.
>********************90% Legit*********************
> L42 Warrior   - Kain-1     {Self Proclaimed
>BK}
> *****************************************************
> sp...@globalnet.co.uk
> <A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>
> ICQ No: 16147227
> *****************************************************
>    Game Master wrote in message <3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
>     I am sorry but..... WRONG! I use Diablo/Hellfire

>1.07/1.01A and Raymond's trainer

> 5 1 says "Thin works only with shareware 1.00 1.04 and hellfire". Since
>I have a
> higher version of both, it will not work. I asked Ray if he was going
>to update to
> 1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't gotten a reply.</BLOCKQUOTE>
>
>--
> AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why doesn't

>anyone do something about it.

>ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>
>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
>*In young girl voice*
> "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
>       --Rob Zombie: Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
>1
>  </HTML>
>
>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="game_master.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="game_master.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard
>n:Not Over;Game
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
>version:2.1
>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
>title:Master Gamer
>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
>tel;work:Just ICQ
>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
>fn:Game Not Over
>end:vcard
>
>
>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992--
>

Charlie

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

Try
>to imagine for a minute how angry you would be if all of a sudden
>everyone was calling *you* a cheater, and a PK. Your replies might
>well be laced with angry sarcasm, which is what I see coming from
>paladjin.

I did not base my judgements about paladijn on everyone elses posts about
him. I read everything he said...considered even that one flub up was
ok...but his outright hatred of cheaters and the way he goes about
disrespecting them is unacceptable. Yeah, I'm a purist. I play with some
more extreme rules than other purists, and people who use trainers or cheats
of any kind will obviously change the way the game is played for a purist
like me. But I don't let it get under my skin like paladijn does. If
someone wants to use a trainer or hacks in a game, then I say it's a-ok with
me if I play with them..they are having fun. I play pure for the extra
challenge of it, and to me, playing with people who cheat and forcing me to
play differently, makes it even funner for me..cause it adds a certain
degree of difficulty to my already difficult playing style. Paladijn has NO
respect for the playing styles of others, unless they are completely legit
and don't use trainers for any purpose, and until he grows up and stops
whining in Justus and on here, he won't get any from me. Just my 2 cents
worth.

Gabriel

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98

to

Game Master wrote in message <365CAAAE...@ainet.com>...
I've never had any complaints until you. What do you use to read ngs
(News Groups)?
Completely irrelevant. Many people use dedicated newsreaders instead of
browsers or mail packages, and many of those newsreaders are not html
enabled. Usenet etiquette is not to post any file type other than plain text
to any group not specifically permitting it; this includes not only binaries
but html, rtf, etc.

-Gabriel

SilverRaven

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Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

It is rude and improper to post in html format to usenet. Open your
help file on Netscape and find out how to post in plain text form
please.

Thank you
SilverRaven

Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

>--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML>

>I didn't know I was. Anyway, who cares ;) Just go buy a cheap version of
>Netscape and upgrade for free to Communicator 4.5 Preview Release 2. It
>even tells you if an e-mail address is correct when sending.
>SilverRaven wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Please stop posting in html. Below is what it looks

>like to a lot of

> us and most of us don't take the time to sift through it to find what
> you are saying.
>SilverRaven
>Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML>
> >Nope. Every option is grayed out. What Build/Beta of the trainer do
>you
> >use?
> >Darren \"FX\"/Kain wrote:
> ><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Erm, ok, I use Diablo 1.07, and Hellfire
>1.01, and
> >believe me
> > Raymonds work's fine with both or them, I use the trainers
>to save
> >all
> > my unique's that I come across (long live the messysmitts reaver).
> >Just do a 'Ok' on the message that tells you that some 'options
>will
> >be-
> > disabled', and things will be fine. I've been using Raymonds,
>since
> >the
> > thing came out, and haven't experienced, a single problem,
>even
> > Stu's Trainer, with Diablo 1.07 works brilliantly.
> > But just remember that some options in Raymonds, will be disabled,
> > when using Hellfire 1.01, not that you really need them.
> > Regards.
> >********************90% Legit*********************
> > L42 Warrior&nbsp;&nbsp; - Kain-1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
>{Self Proclaimed
> >BK}
> > *****************************************************
> > sp...@globalnet.co.uk
> > <A HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>
> > ICQ No: 16147227
> > *****************************************************
> >&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Game Master wrote in message
>&lt;3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am sorry but..... WRONG! I
>use Diablo/Hellfire
> >1.07/1.01A and Raymond's trainer
> > 5 1 says "Thin works only with shareware 1.00 1.04 and hellfire".
>Since
> >I have a
> > higher version of both, it will not work. I asked Ray if he
>was going
> >to update to
> > 1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't gotten a reply.</BLOCKQUOTE>
> >
> >--
> > AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why
>doesn't
> >anyone do something about it.
> >ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>
> >E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> >*In young girl voice*
> > "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --Rob Zombie:
>Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> >1
> > &nbsp;</HTML>
> >
> >--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > name="game_master.vcf"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > filename="game_master.vcf"
> >
> >begin:vcard
> >n:Not Over;Game
> >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> >version:2.1
> >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> >title:Master Gamer
> >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> >tel;work:Just ICQ
> >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> >fn:Game Not Over
> >end:vcard
> >
> >
> >--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992--
> ></BLOCKQUOTE>

>
>--
> AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why doesn't
>anyone do something about it.
>ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>
>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
>*In young girl voice*
> "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
>       --Rob Zombie: Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
>1
>  </HTML>
>

>--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="game_master.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="game_master.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard
>n:Not Over;Game
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
>version:2.1
>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
>title:Master Gamer
>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
>tel;work:Just ICQ
>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
>fn:Game Not Over
>end:vcard
>
>

>--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533--
>

SilverRaven

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Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

I use Free Agent.
SR

Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

>--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1

>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML>

>I've never had any complaints until you. What do you use to read ngs (News
>Groups)?

>SilverRaven wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>It is rude and improper to post in html format to
>usenet. Open your
> help file on Netscape and find out how to post in plain text form
> please.
>Thank you
> SilverRaven

>Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

> >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML>

> >I didn't know I was. Anyway, who cares ;) Just go buy a cheap version
>of
> >Netscape and upgrade for free to Communicator 4.5 Preview Release
>2. It
> >even tells you if an e-mail address is correct when sending.
> >SilverRaven wrote:
> ><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Please stop posting in html. Below is what
>it looks
> >like to a lot of
> > us and most of us don't take the time to sift through it to
>find what
> > you are saying.
> >SilverRaven
> >Game Master &lt;game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
> >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> > >--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> > >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >
> > >&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > >&lt;HTML>
> > >Nope. Every option is grayed out. What Build/Beta of the trainer
>do
> >you
> > >use?
> > >&lt;P>Darren \"FX\"/Kain wrote:
> > >&lt;BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Erm, ok, I use Diablo 1.07, and
>Hellfire
> >1.01, and
> > >believe me
> > >&lt;BR>Raymonds work's fine with both or them, I use the
>trainers
> >to save
> > >all
> > >&lt;BR>my unique's that I come across (long live the messysmitts
>reaver).
> > >&lt;P>Just do a 'Ok' on the message that tells you that
>some 'options
> >will
> > >be-
> > >&lt;BR>disabled', and things will be fine. I've been using
>Raymonds,
> >since
> > >the
> > >&lt;BR>thing came out, and haven't experienced, a single
>problem,
> >even
> > >&lt;BR>Stu's Trainer, with Diablo 1.07 works brilliantly.
> > >&lt;BR>But just remember that some options in Raymonds,
>will be disabled,
> > >&lt;BR>when using Hellfire 1.01, not that you really need
>them.
> > >&lt;BR>Regards.
> > >&lt;P>********************90% Legit*********************
> > >&lt;BR>L42 Warrior&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; - Kain-1&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;
> >{Self Proclaimed
> > >BK}
> > >&lt;BR>*****************************************************
> > >&lt;BR>sp...@globalnet.co.uk
> > >&lt;BR>&lt;A HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>"><A
>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A><> >&lt;BR>ICQ
>No: 16147227
> > >&lt;BR>*****************************************************
> > >&lt;P>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Game
>Master wrote in message
> >&amp;lt;3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I am
>sorry but..... WRONG! I
> >use Diablo/Hellfire
> > >1.07/1.01A and Raymond's trainer
> > >&lt;BR>5 1 says "Thin works only with shareware 1.00 1.04
>and hellfire".
> >Since
> > >I have a
> > >&lt;BR>higher version of both, it will not work. I asked
>Ray if he
> >was going
> > >to update to
> > >&lt;BR>1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't gotten a reply.&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE>
> > >
> > >&lt;P>--
> > >&lt;BR>AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks.
>Now, why
> >doesn't
> > >anyone do something about it.
> > >&lt;P>ABEN FAQ: &lt;A HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A
>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>
> > >&lt;P>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> > >&lt;P>*In young girl voice*
> > >&lt;BR>"And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > >&lt;BR>True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > >&lt;BR>Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > >&lt;BR>For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;
>--Rob Zombie:
> >Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> > >1
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&lt;/HTML>
> > >
> > >--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> > >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > > name="game_master.vcf"
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> > >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > > filename="game_master.vcf"
> > >
> > >begin:vcard
> > >n:Not Over;Game
> > >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> > >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> > >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> > >version:2.1
> > >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> > >title:Master Gamer
> > >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> > >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> > >tel;work:Just ICQ
> > >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> > >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> > >fn:Game Not Over
> > >end:vcard
> > >
> > >
> > >--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992--
> > ></BLOCKQUOTE>

> >
> >--
> > AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why
>doesn't
> >anyone do something about it.
> >ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>
> >E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> >*In young girl voice*
> > "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --Rob Zombie:
>Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> >1
> > &nbsp;</HTML>
> >

> >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

> >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > name="game_master.vcf"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > filename="game_master.vcf"
> >
> >begin:vcard
> >n:Not Over;Game
> >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> >version:2.1
> >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> >title:Master Gamer
> >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> >tel;work:Just ICQ
> >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> >fn:Game Not Over
> >end:vcard
> >
> >

> >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533--

> ></BLOCKQUOTE>
>
>--
> AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why doesn't
>anyone do something about it.
>ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>
>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
>*In young girl voice*
> "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
>       --Rob Zombie: Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
>1
>  </HTML>
>

>--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1

>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="game_master.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="game_master.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard
>n:Not Over;Game
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
>version:2.1
>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
>title:Master Gamer
>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
>tel;work:Just ICQ
>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
>fn:Game Not Over
>end:vcard
>
>

>--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1--
>

SilverRaven

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

Depends on what I'm using it for. I have both IE 5 beta and
Netscape 4.02 @Home version 1.5

Not that it makes a difference. I don't read my ng's with a browser. I
read them with a newsreader, Free Agent, as do *many* people.
SR

Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

>--------------8B52B74338E4EB138913D816

>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML>

>Lol. What do you use as a browser?
>SilverRaven wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I use Free Agent.
> SR

>Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> >--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1

> >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML>

> >I've never had any complaints until you. What do you use to read ngs
>(News
> >Groups)?

> >SilverRaven wrote:

> ><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>It is rude and improper to post in html format
>to
> >usenet. Open your
> > help file on Netscape and find out how to post in plain text
>form
> > please.
> >Thank you
> > SilverRaven

> >Game Master &lt;game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
> >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> > >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

> > >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >
> > >&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > >&lt;HTML>

> > >I didn't know I was. Anyway, who cares ;) Just go buy a cheap
>version
> >of
> > >Netscape and upgrade for free to Communicator 4.5 Preview
>Release
> >2. It
> > >even tells you if an e-mail address is correct when sending.
> > >&lt;P>SilverRaven wrote:
> > >&lt;BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Please stop posting in html.
>Below is what
> >it looks
> > >like to a lot of
> > >&lt;BR>us and most of us don't take the time to sift through
>it to
> >find what
> > >&lt;BR>you are saying.
> > >&lt;P>SilverRaven
> > >&lt;P>Game Master &amp;lt;game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
> > >&lt;P>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> > >&lt;BR>>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD
>HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;HTML>
> > >&lt;BR>>Nope. Every option is grayed out. What Build/Beta
>of the trainer
> >do
> > >you
> > >&lt;BR>>use?
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>Darren \"FX\"/Kain wrote:
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Erm, ok, I use
>Diablo 1.07, and
> >Hellfire
> > >1.01, and
> > >&lt;BR>>believe me
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Raymonds work's fine with both

>or them, I use the

> >trainers
> > >to save
> > >&lt;BR>>all
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>my unique's that I come across
>(long live the messysmitts
> >reaver).
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>Just do a 'Ok' on the message that
>tells you that
> >some 'options
> > >will
> > >&lt;BR>>be-
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>disabled', and things will be fine.
>I've been using
> >Raymonds,
> > >since
> > >&lt;BR>>the
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>thing came out, and haven't experienced,
>a single
> >problem,
> > >even
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Stu's Trainer, with Diablo 1.07
>works brilliantly.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>But just remember that some options
>in Raymonds,
> >will be disabled,
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>when using Hellfire 1.01, not that
>you really need
> >them.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Regards.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>********************90% Legit*********************
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>L42 Warrior&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
>- Kain-1&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
> > >{Self Proclaimed
> > >&lt;BR>>BK}
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>*****************************************************
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>sp...@globalnet.co.uk
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;lt;A HREF="&lt;A HREF="<A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>"><A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>&>HREF="<A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>"><A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>&lt;>&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>ICQ
> >No: 16147227
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>*****************************************************
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
>Game
> >Master wrote in message
> > >&amp;amp;lt;3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
>I am
> >sorry but..... WRONG! I
> > >use Diablo/Hellfire
> > >&lt;BR>>1.07/1.01A and Raymond's trainer
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>5 1 says "Thin works only with
>shareware 1.00 1.04
> >and hellfire".
> > >Since
> > >&lt;BR>>I have a
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>higher version of both, it will
>not work. I asked
> >Ray if he
> > >was going
> > >&lt;BR>>to update to
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't
>gotten a reply.&amp;lt;/BLOCKQUOTE>
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>--
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks,
>Microsoft sucks.
> >Now, why
> > >doesn't
> > >&lt;BR>>anyone do something about it.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>ABEN FAQ: &amp;lt;A HREF="&lt;A

>HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>">&lt;A
> >HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A
>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>&amp;lt;/A>
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Need help on a game? Tell me and
>I'll help.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>*In young girl voice*
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>"And out of the darkness the zombie
>did call,
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>True pain and suffering he brought
>to them all.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Away ran the children to hide in
>their beds,
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>For fear that the devil would chop
>off their heads."
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
> >--Rob Zombie:
> > >Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> > >&lt;BR>>1
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;lt;/HTML>
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > >&lt;BR>> name="game_master.vcf"
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > >&lt;BR>> filename="game_master.vcf"
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>begin:vcard
> > >&lt;BR>>n:Not Over;Game
> > >&lt;BR>>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> > >&lt;BR>>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> > >&lt;BR>>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> > >&lt;BR>>version:2.1
> > >&lt;BR>>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>>title:Master Gamer
> > >&lt;BR>>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> > >&lt;BR>>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> > >&lt;BR>>tel;work:Just ICQ
> > >&lt;BR>>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and
>I'll help.
> > >&lt;BR>>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> > >&lt;BR>>fn:Game Not Over
> > >&lt;BR>>end:vcard
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992--
> > >&lt;BR>>&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE>

> > >
> > >&lt;P>--
> > >&lt;BR>AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks.
>Now, why
> >doesn't
> > >anyone do something about it.
> > >&lt;P>ABEN FAQ: &lt;A HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A
>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>
> > >&lt;P>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> > >&lt;P>*In young girl voice*
> > >&lt;BR>"And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > >&lt;BR>True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > >&lt;BR>Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > >&lt;BR>For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;
>--Rob Zombie:
> >Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> > >1
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&lt;/HTML>
> > >

> > >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

> > >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > > name="game_master.vcf"
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> > >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > > filename="game_master.vcf"
> > >
> > >begin:vcard
> > >n:Not Over;Game
> > >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> > >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> > >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> > >version:2.1
> > >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> > >title:Master Gamer
> > >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> > >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> > >tel;work:Just ICQ
> > >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> > >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> > >fn:Game Not Over
> > >end:vcard
> > >
> > >

> > >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533--

> > ></BLOCKQUOTE>
> >
> >--
> > AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why
>doesn't
> >anyone do something about it.
> >ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>
> >E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> >*In young girl voice*
> > "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --Rob Zombie:
>Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> >1
> > &nbsp;</HTML>
> >

> >--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1

> >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > name="game_master.vcf"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > filename="game_master.vcf"
> >
> >begin:vcard
> >n:Not Over;Game
> >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> >version:2.1
> >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> >title:Master Gamer
> >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> >tel;work:Just ICQ
> >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> >fn:Game Not Over
> >end:vcard
> >
> >

> >--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1--

> ></BLOCKQUOTE>
>
>--
> AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why doesn't
>anyone do something about it.
>ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>
>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
>*In young girl voice*
> "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
>       --Rob Zombie: Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
>1
>  </HTML>
>

>--------------8B52B74338E4EB138913D816

>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="game_master.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="game_master.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard
>n:Not Over;Game
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
>version:2.1
>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
>title:Master Gamer
>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
>tel;work:Just ICQ
>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
>fn:Game Not Over
>end:vcard
>
>

>--------------8B52B74338E4EB138913D816--
>

Celleste

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

I was going to complain, too. But then I decided that your
messages weren't worth it and I just don't read them. I get
all this gobbledy gook, too. Too bad if you don't care
whether you are read or not. I don't have the desire to
sift through all the code to read your two lines of text.

It would be nice if you could figure out how to change your
settings. It's really quite simple. :-) Then I would read
you.

Celleste

> 25 Nov 1998 17:37:14 -0800, Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

>--------------8B52B74338E4EB138913D816

>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML>

>Lol. What do you use as a browser?

>SilverRaven wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I use Free Agent.
> SR

>Game Master <game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> >--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1

> >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML>

> >I've never had any complaints until you. What do you use to read ngs
>(News
> >Groups)?

> >SilverRaven wrote:

> ><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>It is rude and improper to post in html format
>to
> >usenet. Open your
> > help file on Netscape and find out how to post in plain text
>form

> > please.
> >Thank you

> > SilverRaven

> >Game Master &lt;game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
> >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> > >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

> > >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >
> > >&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > >&lt;HTML>

> > >I didn't know I was. Anyway, who cares ;) Just go buy a cheap
>version
> >of
> > >Netscape and upgrade for free to Communicator 4.5 Preview
>Release
> >2. It
> > >even tells you if an e-mail address is correct when sending.
> > >&lt;P>SilverRaven wrote:
> > >&lt;BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Please stop posting in html.
>Below is what
> >it looks
> > >like to a lot of
> > >&lt;BR>us and most of us don't take the time to sift through
>it to
> >find what
> > >&lt;BR>you are saying.

> > >&lt;P>SilverRaven

> > >&lt;P>Game Master &amp;lt;game_...@ainet.com> wrote:
> > >&lt;P>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> > >&lt;BR>>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD
>HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;HTML>
> > >&lt;BR>>Nope. Every option is grayed out. What Build/Beta
>of the trainer
> >do
> > >you
> > >&lt;BR>>use?
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>Darren \"FX\"/Kain wrote:
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Erm, ok, I use
>Diablo 1.07, and
> >Hellfire
> > >1.01, and
> > >&lt;BR>>believe me
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Raymonds work's fine with both

>or them, I use the

> >trainers
> > >to save
> > >&lt;BR>>all
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>my unique's that I come across
>(long live the messysmitts
> >reaver).
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>Just do a 'Ok' on the message that
>tells you that
> >some 'options
> > >will
> > >&lt;BR>>be-
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>disabled', and things will be fine.
>I've been using
> >Raymonds,
> > >since
> > >&lt;BR>>the
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>thing came out, and haven't experienced,
>a single
> >problem,
> > >even
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Stu's Trainer, with Diablo 1.07
>works brilliantly.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>But just remember that some options
>in Raymonds,
> >will be disabled,
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>when using Hellfire 1.01, not that
>you really need

> >them.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Regards.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>********************90% Legit*********************
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>L42 Warrior&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
>- Kain-1&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
> > >{Self Proclaimed
> > >&lt;BR>>BK}
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>*****************************************************
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>sp...@globalnet.co.uk

> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;lt;A HREF="&lt;A HREF="<A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>"><A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>&>HREF="<A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>"><A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A>"><A HREF="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~spaz/</A></A>&lt;>&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>ICQ
> >No: 16147227
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>*****************************************************
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
>Game
> >Master wrote in message
> > >&amp;amp;lt;3658CF82...@ainet.com>...
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
>I am

> >sorry but..... WRONG! I
> > >use Diablo/Hellfire
> > >&lt;BR>>1.07/1.01A and Raymond's trainer
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>5 1 says "Thin works only with
>shareware 1.00 1.04
> >and hellfire".
> > >Since
> > >&lt;BR>>I have a
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>higher version of both, it will
>not work. I asked
> >Ray if he
> > >was going
> > >&lt;BR>>to update to
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>1.07/1.01A a week ago and haven't
>gotten a reply.&amp;lt;/BLOCKQUOTE>
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>--
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks,
>Microsoft sucks.
> >Now, why
> > >doesn't
> > >&lt;BR>>anyone do something about it.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>ABEN FAQ: &amp;lt;A HREF="&lt;A

>HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A

>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>">&lt;A
> >HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A
>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>&amp;lt;/A>
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Need help on a game? Tell me and
>I'll help.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;P>*In young girl voice*
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>"And out of the darkness the zombie
>did call,
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>True pain and suffering he brought
>to them all.
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>Away ran the children to hide in
>their beds,
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>For fear that the devil would chop
>off their heads."

> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;
> >--Rob Zombie:

> > >Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> > >&lt;BR>>1
> > >&lt;BR>>&amp;lt;BR>&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;lt;/HTML>
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > >&lt;BR>> name="game_master.vcf"
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> > >&lt;BR>>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > >&lt;BR>> filename="game_master.vcf"
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>begin:vcard
> > >&lt;BR>>n:Not Over;Game
> > >&lt;BR>>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> > >&lt;BR>>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> > >&lt;BR>>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> > >&lt;BR>>version:2.1
> > >&lt;BR>>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>>title:Master Gamer
> > >&lt;BR>>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> > >&lt;BR>>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> > >&lt;BR>>tel;work:Just ICQ
> > >&lt;BR>>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and
>I'll help.
> > >&lt;BR>>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> > >&lt;BR>>fn:Game Not Over
> > >&lt;BR>>end:vcard
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>
> > >&lt;BR>>--------------CEA65CAD5B445963083A4992--
> > >&lt;BR>>&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE>

> > >
> > >&lt;P>--
> > >&lt;BR>AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks.
>Now, why
> >doesn't
> > >anyone do something about it.
> > >&lt;P>ABEN FAQ: &lt;A HREF="<A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>"><A
>HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>&lt;/A>
> > >&lt;P>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > >&lt;BR>Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> > >&lt;P>*In young girl voice*
> > >&lt;BR>"And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > >&lt;BR>True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > >&lt;BR>Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > >&lt;BR>For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;
>--Rob Zombie:
> >Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> > >1
> > >&lt;BR>&amp;nbsp;&lt;/HTML>
> > >

> > >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533

> > >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > > name="game_master.vcf"
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> > >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > > filename="game_master.vcf"
> > >
> > >begin:vcard
> > >n:Not Over;Game
> > >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> > >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> > >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> > >version:2.1
> > >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> > >title:Master Gamer
> > >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> > >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> > >tel;work:Just ICQ
> > >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> > >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> > >fn:Game Not Over
> > >end:vcard
> > >
> > >

> > >--------------6FF5FC7027E2696BBD451533--

> > ></BLOCKQUOTE>
> >
> >--
> > AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why
>doesn't
> >anyone do something about it.
> >ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="<A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>"><A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A></A>
> >E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> > Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
> >*In young girl voice*
> > "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> > True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> > Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> > For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --Rob Zombie:
>Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
> >1
> > &nbsp;</HTML>
> >

> >--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1

> >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> > name="game_master.vcf"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Content-Description: Card for Game Master
> >Content-Disposition: attachment;
> > filename="game_master.vcf"
> >
> >begin:vcard
> >n:Not Over;Game
> >x-mozilla-html:FALSE
> >org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
> >adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
> >version:2.1
> >email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
> >title:Master Gamer
> >tel;fax:Just E-Mail
> >tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
> >tel;work:Just ICQ
> >note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
> >x-mozilla-cpt:;0
> >fn:Game Not Over
> >end:vcard
> >
> >

> >--------------5BA6E55D98FC9ECEA80AA3C1--

> ></BLOCKQUOTE>
>
>--
> AOL sucks, Internet Explorer sucks, Microsoft sucks. Now, why doesn't
>anyone do something about it.
>ABEN FAQ: <A HREF="http://abenfaq.home.ml.org">http://abenfaq.home.ml.org</A>
>E-Mail: game_...@ainet.com
> Need help on a game? Tell me and I'll help.
>*In young girl voice*
> "And out of the darkness the zombie did call,
> True pain and suffering he brought to them all.
> Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
> For fear that the devil would chop off their heads."
>       --Rob Zombie: Hellbilly Deluxe, Track
>1
>  </HTML>
>

>--------------8B52B74338E4EB138913D816

>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="game_master.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Game Master
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="game_master.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard
>n:Not Over;Game
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Gamers of the United States of Ameica
>adr:;;;Waterdeep;Of Insanity;24645-59696;Azaroth
>version:2.1
>email;internet:cwh...@ainet.com
>title:Master Gamer
>tel;fax:Just E-Mail
>tel;home:(ICQ UIN) 12441176
>tel;work:Just ICQ
>note:Need help on a game? Tell me the game and I'll help.
>x-mozilla-cpt:;0
>fn:Game Not Over
>end:vcard
>
>

>--------------8B52B74338E4EB138913D816--
>

Celleste

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

On 26 Nov 1998 02:24:20 GMT, cell...@hotmail.nixthis.com
(Celleste) wrote:

>I was going to complain, too.

Sorry I didn't trim that last message. I didn't think about
it. I sure hope you (Game Master) take a look at all that
nonsense that comes out at our end. Completely unnecessary.

Celleste

Charlie

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

Complaint No. 2

I use Outlook Express, which does allow HTML, but posting messages on ANY
newsgroup that has readers that do not use newsreaders that allow HTML is
considered rude...just like typing all in caps and swearing. So please post
in plain text.

Charlie

Pedro Faria / Jarulf

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:32:17 GMT, "Charlie" <vrah...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

I don't have the slightest idea if Agent can read it but it do tend to
show up as a html attachment or something. What I do is simply ignore
it and thus not read it. I tend to do the same thing when people
writwe me an email in html. When I _do_ read such a thing, 99% of the
one using it are in fact not using it at all and in many cases have
just written some basic text with NO formating at all. Thus as I said,
I tend to simply skip such posts and mails.
--
Pedro Faria

Jarulf's Guide to Diablo and Hellfire
http://pf.chemeng.lth.se/diablo/

Vox

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

Kwira all :)

On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:29:19 GMT, pedro...@chemeng.lth.*se (Pedro
Faria / Jarulf) wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:32:17 GMT, "Charlie" <vrah...@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
>>Complaint No. 2
>>I use Outlook Express, which does allow HTML, but posting messages on ANY
>>newsgroup that has readers that do not use newsreaders that allow HTML is
>>considered rude...just like typing all in caps and swearing. So please post
>>in plain text.
>I don't have the slightest idea if Agent can read it but it do tend to
>show up as a html attachment or something. What I do is simply ignore

It can't read it natively, tho you can load it into your
browser (doubleclick teh attachment icon and it loads) but...after a
couple of not nice experiences (damn ActiveX controls aren't funny
sometimes) I used to just ignore em, now I just killfile em (thanks
Forte fro Agent :) ...enough risks I take when going down to hell/hell
<chuckle> :)

Arioshi ba :)

Vox.

------------
"Pain is the gift of the gods....and I'm the one they chose as their messanger..."

VoxFidelis Warrior lvl 34, :)
VoxMage Wizzard lvl 33 and tri-dotted at last! :)
All legit :)
BN #2317618

You know what to do with the addy to email :)

Adam Kusnierz

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

In article <365b1772...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, Celleste
<cell...@hotmail.nixthis.com> writes

>On 24 Nov 1998 03:15:45 GMT, paladijn
><"paladijn"@unforgettable.:).com> wrote:
>
>>cheaters suck, and I'm doing something about it..and now I'm a PK
>
>Ok, maybe I misunderstood you in the post I referenced. My
>bad. I just thought you were being misunderstood. Guess
>you can't get any clearer than that.

Unless he's being sarcastic.
Just guessing ;)
--
Adam Kusnierz

Adam Kusnierz

unread,

Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98

to

In article <s2%62.1453$eZ4.2...@news4.atl>, Charlie
<vrah...@bellsouth.net> writes

> Try
>>to imagine for a minute how angry you would be if all of a sudden
>>everyone was calling *you* a cheater, and a PK. Your replies might
>>well be laced with angry sarcasm, which is what I see coming from
>>paladjin.

>I did not base my judgements about paladijn on everyone elses posts about
>him. I read everything he said...considered even that one flub up was
>ok...but his outright hatred of cheaters and the way he goes about
>disrespecting them is unacceptable.

Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.

They *could* always 'play it safe' and stop cheating and PKing. Then
they would be liked and respected by all, right?

>Yeah, I'm a purist. I play with some
>more extreme rules than other purists, and people who use trainers or cheats
>of any kind will obviously change the way the game is played for a purist
>like me. But I don't let it get under my skin like paladijn does. If
>someone wants to use a trainer or hacks in a game, then I say it's a-ok with
>me if I play with them..they are having fun. I play pure for the extra
>challenge of it, and to me, playing with people who cheat and forcing me to
>play differently, makes it even funner for me..cause it adds a certain
>degree of difficulty to my already difficult playing style.

Sorry Charlie, but you could not have been more wrong if you tried. All
cheats (every single one of them) are designed to make the game
_easier_. If you are playing with them, then it _has_ to make it easier
for you too. There is no other logical conclusion (or perhaps you would
like to challenge that statement by giving an example of how exactly you
need to adjust to those 'more difficult' conditions?). That implies that
you are no longer 'pure', but indeed you have crossed the line no legit
would travel beyond.

> Paladijn has NO
>respect for the playing styles of others, unless they are completely legit
>and don't use trainers for any purpose, and until he grows up and stops
>whining in Justus and on here, he won't get any from me. Just my 2 cents

>worth.

I don't think he would _want_ a game with someone like you.

--
Adam Kusnierz

Charlie

unread,

Nov 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/27/98

to

Adam Kusnierz wrote:

> >I did not base my judgements about paladijn on everyone elses posts about
> >him. I read everything he said...considered even that one flub up was
> >ok...but his outright hatred of cheaters and the way he goes about
> >disrespecting them is unacceptable.
>
> Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
> significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
> IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
> them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
> disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.
>

Is it more acceptable? Of course. I would explain it all to you, but
trolls don't have room in their small minds to allow them to see it from
their perspective. Some people cheat just because they want to..others
because the game is a little too tough for them. Cheating in a
co-operative game would ruin the fun for ME, because of the extreme
style of purism I play. But I would rather play with a cheater then to
play with a PK who plays co-op, then betrays me. If someone wants to
cheat to play the game, they can. Nobody can stop them from playing the
game, as long as they are having fun. What purists and legits...and
scummy PKs for that matter..consider "fun", is entirely up to them.
When they start acting up and getting on everyone else's nerves by
disregarding the request that they leave the game or to stop laying out
the hate messages in the NG or in the channel, then that is pushing the
line past the break point. His blatant disrespect for the way some
people like to play this game is unacceptable. I know of several people
here that dislike cheaters, but they don't post message after message
saying that they hate cheaters or piss everyone off in the chat
channel. Why did I spend several minutes typing this up, when it's
fairly obvious you will not comprehend it.

> They *could* always 'play it safe' and stop cheating and PKing. Then
> they would be liked and respected by all, right?

How would 'playing it safe', as you say, affect their decision to stop
cheating or player killing? The only people I do not have any respect
for are player killers who desire only to ruin someone else's fun
intentionally. Most cheaters do not even relaize that the way they play
is ruining a legit's or purist's fun. So they get cut the slack
somewhat..at least by me. PKer's get their kicks out of killing another
player on purpose. Which do you think will get more respect?
Wait..don't bother answering.

>
> >Yeah, I'm a purist. I play with some
> >more extreme rules than other purists, and people who use trainers or cheats
> >of any kind will obviously change the way the game is played for a purist
> >like me. But I don't let it get under my skin like paladijn does. If
> >someone wants to use a trainer or hacks in a game, then I say it's a-ok with
> >me if I play with them..they are having fun. I play pure for the extra
> >challenge of it, and to me, playing with people who cheat and forcing me to
> >play differently, makes it even funner for me..cause it adds a certain
> >degree of difficulty to my already difficult playing style.
>
> Sorry Charlie, but you could not have been more wrong if you tried. All
> cheats (every single one of them) are designed to make the game
> _easier_. If you are playing with them, then it _has_ to make it easier
> for you too. There is no other logical conclusion (or perhaps you would
> like to challenge that statement by giving an example of how exactly you
> need to adjust to those 'more difficult' conditions?). That implies that
> you are no longer 'pure', but indeed you have crossed the line no legit
> would travel beyond.
>

Playing WITH a cheater is a LOT different from co-op'ing with one. They
go do their thing, and I go do mine. I won't co-op with one. Think
ahead before you post something like that. The last time I checked, the
Play from the HD hack does not make the game easier, or the God Mode
from Auto-Kill for that matter. Unless you think getting AKed is part
of the game..and if you do, then you are a hypocrite. Varaya and Kahn
have hex edited the Diablo and Hellfire executables to change the game
format around...and in my opinion, and probably everyone elses as well,
the game is a LOT HARDER. And before you counter and say playing V&K
Diablo and Hellfire is not using a cheat, then you are dead wrong.
Almost every cheat available is either in the form of a trainer or a
dat/hak file. In my free time, I am making a hak file with every
changed offset and their new values in comparison with Hellfire 1.01 and
V&K Hellfire. It will be posted in .hak format..or a cheat file. It
alters Hellfire's memory to do something it was not intended to do, as
every cheat file out there does. V&K does not make the game easier

> > Paladijn has NO
> >respect for the playing styles of others, unless they are completely legit
> >and don't use trainers for any purpose, and until he grows up and stops
> >whining in Justus and on here, he won't get any from me. Just my 2 cents
> >worth.
>
> I don't think he would _want_ a game with someone like you.
>

Where did I say I would want or not want a game with Paladijn? You need
glasses to help you read other people's posts?
> --
> Adam Kusnierz
aka Trollboy

Manga Rosa

unread,

Nov 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/27/98

to

Apart from the fact that this Rave Master (or whatever) guy
has buggered up my attach directory with a load of unwanted
psudo-attachs.
On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:43:49 GMT, silve...@home.com (SilverRaven)
wrote:

Adam Kusnierz

unread,

Nov 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/28/98

to

In article <365DEBB2...@bellsouth.net>, Charlie
<vrah...@bellsouth.net> writes

>
>
>Adam Kusnierz wrote:
>
>> >I did not base my judgements about paladijn on everyone elses posts about
>> >him. I read everything he said...considered even that one flub up was
>> >ok...but his outright hatred of cheaters and the way he goes about
>> >disrespecting them is unacceptable.
>>
>> Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
>> significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
>> IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
>> them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
>> disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.
>>
>Is it more acceptable? Of course. I would explain it all to you, but
>trolls don't have room in their small minds to allow them to see it from
>their perspective.

That's ok. Explain in small stages - typing as much as you are able to
comprehend at one time. I'm in no hurry.

> Some people cheat just because they want to..others
>because the game is a little too tough for them. Cheating in a
>co-operative game would ruin the fun for ME, because of the extreme
>style of purism I play.

Your 'extreme purism' has _nohthing_ to do with it. It spoils it for
_ANY_ legit that may be in that game trying to play coop.

>But I would rather play with a cheater then to
>play with a PK who plays co-op, then betrays me.

Only because you don't understand that cheater betrays you so much more.
All you loose to a PK is a little gold (which you can reaquire VERY
quickly), and possibly 5 minutes of your game time. Playing with
cheaters (if you really have any respect for yourself) will cost you
hours of your game time, and may (notice the use of 'may' rather than
'does', even though I think this is the most common outcome of playing
with cheaters) cause such implications in your character development and
inventory (over the period of time) that the only solution a legit worth
such description would consider would be to wipe whole character(s) that
(s)he spent hours developing.

>If someone wants to
>cheat to play the game, they can. Nobody can stop them from playing the
>game, as long as they are having fun. What purists and legits...and
>scummy PKs for that matter..consider "fun", is entirely up to them.

So?

>When they start acting up and getting on everyone else's nerves by
>disregarding the request that they leave the game or to stop laying out
>the hate messages in the NG or in the channel, then that is pushing the
>line past the break point. His blatant disrespect for the way some
>people like to play this game is unacceptable. I know of several people
>here that dislike cheaters, but they don't post message after message
>saying that they hate cheaters or piss everyone off in the chat
>channel.

And the point it...? I know cheaters that do nothing but come into chat
channels to piss ppl off, and many 'weaker minds' here spending much of
their time posting hate msg's directed at PKers. It _is_ acceptable.
This is something you obviously have problem grasping, but whilst I
don't care enough to dislike cheaters I have no pity for them either.
IMO cheaters do _NOT_ deserve the respect Paladijn failed to show them.
Cheaters hurt b.net community more than PKers ever could.

>Why did I spend several minutes typing this up, when it's
>fairly obvious you will not comprehend it.

You were right. I fail to understand why you would type so much text and
yet not make a valid point. Next time spend several minutes thinking
about what you want to write beforehand. Perhaps you come up with
something that makes sense.

>> They *could* always 'play it safe' and stop cheating and PKing. Then
>> they would be liked and respected by all, right?
>
>How would 'playing it safe', as you say, affect their decision to stop
>cheating or player killing?

In the sentence above 'playing safe' _is_ stoping to cheat/PK, and the
sentence itself indicates. Construction too difficult for you?

> The only people I do not have any respect
>for are player killers who desire only to ruin someone else's fun
>intentionally. Most cheaters do not even relaize that the way they play
>is ruining a legit's or purist's fun. So they get cut the slack
>somewhat..at least by me.

Lemme see if I get it right. If they are stupid enough to not realise
what the effect of their actions is then they deserve respect?
It's obvious why you side with idiots, but respecting them for being
stupid is IMO too much to ask.

>PKer's get their kicks out of killing another
>player on purpose. Which do you think will get more respect?

At least PK realises why he's being disliked. Neither deserve respect,
so the question here is not who doesn't deserve it more.

>Wait..don't bother answering.
>>
>> >Yeah, I'm a purist. I play with some
>> >more extreme rules than other purists, and people who use trainers or cheats
>> >of any kind will obviously change the way the game is played for a purist
>> >like me. But I don't let it get under my skin like paladijn does. If
>> >someone wants to use a trainer or hacks in a game, then I say it's a-ok with
>> >me if I play with them..they are having fun. I play pure for the extra
>> >challenge of it, and to me, playing with people who cheat and forcing me to
>> >play differently, makes it even funner for me..cause it adds a certain

^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> >degree of difficulty to my already difficult playing style.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> Sorry Charlie, but you could not have been more wrong if you tried. All
>> cheats (every single one of them) are designed to make the game
>> _easier_. If you are playing with them, then it _has_ to make it easier
>> for you too. There is no other logical conclusion (or perhaps you would
>> like to challenge that statement by giving an example of how exactly you
>> need to adjust to those 'more difficult' conditions?). That implies that
>> you are no longer 'pure', but indeed you have crossed the line no legit
>> would travel beyond.
>>
>Playing WITH a cheater is a LOT different from co-op'ing with one. They
>go do their thing, and I go do mine. I won't co-op with one.

And how does not co-oping with one 'add a certain degree of difficulty'
exactly? It really is not a difficult question. I think even a person
with your mental abilities should be able to answer it. Take as long as
you need to come up with one.

> Think
>ahead before you post something like that. The last time I checked, the
>Play from the HD hack does not make the game easier, or the God Mode
>from Auto-Kill for that matter.

HD hack reduces the lag, are you saying that that, and GM from AK makes
the game more difficult? What, in that case, is that 'extreme purist and
difficult' style you play? GodMode vs monsters and unlimited mana?

> Unless you think getting AKed is part
>of the game..and if you do, then you are a hypocrite.

Getting AKed is NOT a part of the game because AK is NOT a part of the
game. Can you understand this much?

>Varaya and Kahn
>have hex edited the Diablo and Hellfire executables to change the game
>format around...and in my opinion, and probably everyone elses as well,
>the game is a LOT HARDER. And before you counter and say playing V&K
>Diablo and Hellfire is not using a cheat, then you are dead wrong.
>Almost every cheat available is either in the form of a trainer or a
>dat/hak file. In my free time, I am making a hak file with every
>changed offset and their new values in comparison with Hellfire 1.01 and
>V&K Hellfire. It will be posted in .hak format..or a cheat file. It
>alters Hellfire's memory to do something it was not intended to do, as
>every cheat file out there does. V&K does not make the game easier

I do not consider V&K a 'cheat', and I don't care how wrong you think I
may be. You are not qualified to make that decision. I play neither V&K
nor Hellfire, but from what I heard it's a _patch_ - pretty much like
upgrade from Diablo 1.05 to 1.07, only unathorised. How these are
accomplished is of no consequence. This is still a little side-tracking
I don't wish to pursue. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

>> > Paladijn has NO
>> >respect for the playing styles of others, unless they are completely legit
>> >and don't use trainers for any purpose, and until he grows up and stops
>> >whining in Justus and on here, he won't get any from me. Just my 2 cents
>> >worth.
>>
>> I don't think he would _want_ a game with someone like you.
>>
>Where did I say I would want or not want a game with Paladijn? You need
>glasses to help you read other people's posts?

No, but shorter, better structured sentences from you would help a lot.
Anyway, you don't respect Paladijn. Do you think he cares? Do you think
anyone does? Why would we want to know about whom you have no respect
for, and who may be in your kill-file and such? Taking about
whinging....

>> Adam Kusnierz
>aka Trollboy

Wow! How very amusing. I thought you were a teen, now I'm beginning to
think you are no older than 9. In and case it's Mr Troll to _you_!
--
Adam Kusnierz

ald

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Nov 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/29/98

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On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:32:44 -0800, Game Master
<game_...@ainet.com> wrote:

>                
>                    
>--
>

*Please* do not post in HTML. I've included a couple of the 258 lines
that this came across as in my newsreader in the hope that you will be
able to see what kind of gibberish comes out. If you could post in
plain text, it would make reading your messages much easier.

Thanx,

DaIai Lama

unread,

Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

>Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
>significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
>IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
>them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
>disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.

Nobody made another player play legit either. So if someone is playing legit
than they deserve whatever disliek and disrespect they get from the dupers and
cheaters right? (See Tovemi's post on Battlnet musings for examples of this).

Is Flag football cheating? Is football even a cheated version of Rugby and
Soccer? Is playing the all king's version of checker's cheating?

Games have rules. If all partcipants involved agree to alter those rules than
it is no longer cheating, unless they are part of a still larger competition.
So if Player A enters a game and says "I like to use no Drops, in case we get
lagged out" and Player B says, "No problem, I use it too" Than guess
what......

NEITHER is cheating! They aren't using deception or any underhanded ways of
gaining an advantage over each other.

Are they playing Diablo out of the box (with sanctioned upgrades)?

Most certainly not.

Is this cheating. If you said yes, guess again. Altering the rules is NOT
cheating. Violating those rules is. Take a look at softball instead of
baseball, or baseball instead of cricket? Wiffleball? Hmmm Are aluminum bats
cheating?
Why are there so many forms of solitaire? Are all of them except one cheating?

So henceforth, if someone wants to say, Player Y doesn't play by Blizzard
sanctioned rules, I will have no problems accepting that. If they want to
say that the player is a cheater, they will have to show me where that person
is practicing duplicity.

If the person not playing by Blizzard's rules, (And I'm sure this phrase is
rubbing people the wrong way, but they can go down and tell all the college
basketball teams that they are cheaters because they don't play by NBA rules)
tries to come into a game and say that they got their items by adhering to Bliz
rules (gotta shorten that somehow) than they would indeed be cheating.
Honesty is as big a part of determining cheating as what they are doing.

I'm not going to be dissuaded by such arguments as generally acccepted
definitions. It is rather clear to me that people have different gaming
styles, and some of those styles include different rules. If they didn't
ironman couldn;'t exist, becuase I could come up to town and buy and shop
whenever I wanted and call myself an Ironman.

The fact that Iron man falls withing Bliz Rules, does not mean that other
players have to stay within Bliz Rules to avoid cheating. Many gaming styles
are altered rules, and as long as all players agree, it is not cheating.

Sorry if this doesn't sit well with some, but it is true.
(if you are going to go into a _who's_ truth argument, than I will imagine you
spending a lifetime and millions of public dollars reasearching what can be
determined with a little noggin juice and a few volts of properly applied
neuron action.)

I know this isn't the time for another such thread. But something has been
simmering in my mind that there was a very good SOLID reason for the logic of
the people who say play how you will. They aren't necessarily cheaters, and
their moral rectitude is no less or greater than others who play by Bliz Rules.

I'm not going to go into permutations of the same thing over and over, so I
will let this post stand, unless there is some grave miscommunication of what I
am saying.

I have a great deal of respect for those who play Diablo the hard way (Bliz
Rules, Iron Man, BNM), and personally, I enjoy the challenge of the game.
Sometimes, I enjoy taking my 40+ level character, and blowing through normal
hell like a chainsaw through tissue paper, but there certainly isn't anything
wrong with feeling like playing an easy game sometimes, and having a challenge
on another night. If you stop and think for a second, that is all someone
with a trainer is doing. Making the game easy. If they aren't affectting
you (a snippet on this later) than you have no moral right to criticize them.
The game would be a lot tough for mages if they had to stop casting spells
wouldn't it? Should I cry out in indginity becuase high powered mages have it
easy? Lest you think that statements is silly, look at Iron man. It evolved
because the game was too easy.

Now if you want to chastise someone for taking the easy way out, and saying
they should do it the fun way, than you will have a valid critique. The game,
however is for enjoyment. If you don't like the set of rules that others have
set up for themselves, don't play with them, and leave it at that.

Now if they come into your games (and I am sure in public games, and some
private that a great number of them do) and try to pull off their non Bliz
playing style, than they are JUST PLAIN RUDE. If you aren't going to play by
Bliz rules, you should darn well be willing to respect the game of those that
do abide by them. (I don't mean to be critical of any player of group by this
remark -just trying to point out that Legit (and I think Legit is a good term
for those who do abide by Bliz Rules) players have a very good reason for
griping at all the non-legit players that come into their games, and refuse to
play legit or leave.

It comes down to honor and respect. Use a little communciation and a lot of
respect for others, and the rest of the labeling and caste system will fall
apart because it is not needed.

What is needed is a little bit of tolerance.

Dalai Lama

"Give me Zodiac, or give me Death"

Sdc2683

unread,

Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

Your point is well taken, though it may be too stressed. Cheating is only
cheating when there are rules to break. But, since bnet has no rules against a
trainer, data file, or any other way of gaining advantage over another player,
then it is no longer considered cheating. Just as you said.

Blizz_Wiz

Dark Half

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Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

Erm.... did you totally skip that little agreement that pops up when you
"create new account" on BNet? Someone be so kind as to post the relevant
section... Basicly, it sets out rules against altering the program...

--

Dark Half: Remove "DELETEME" to reply
|\ _,,,---,,_
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
ZZzz'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL

Z-man

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Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

As much as I hate these arguements, technically people are not altering
the program. It's only a temporary thing, so ... lets just call it a
pseudo-cheat ... heheh ... it wants to be a cheat, but can't, it only
has some properties of it. IMO, I view cheating in 2 ways, 1) Changing
the game where you or someone else is affected until the end of it (if
not forever , and when talking about "people" , I mean the characters) ,
or 2) what many people consider cheating on BNet now.

--
Z-man
AOL IM - OgreTron "Without my Mana Shield, I shall show no mercy."
ICQ UIN - 1423478
NOSP...@hiwaay.net

Stalker~||AE||

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Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

Very well said...as usual.

Stalker~||AE||

DaIai Lama wrote in message
<19981206001235...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...

Thingfishhhh

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Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

In article <19981206001235...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
daia...@aol.com (DaIai Lama) wrote:

> >Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
> >significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
> >IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
> >them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
> >disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.
>
> Nobody made another player play legit either. So if someone is playing legit
> than they deserve whatever disliek and disrespect they get from the dupers and
> cheaters right? (See Tovemi's post on Battlnet musings for examples of this).

Great post snipped.

To answer the original question, I think the hatred is aimed more towards
the PKers who kill out players for no reason at all than is aimed at
"cheaters".

We've all probably used a cheat code, or trainer, or hint at one time or
another. Personally, i think using trainers in a game like Diablo, where
your game is dictated by your *experience*, is pretty much a waste of time
and whatever you spent on the game. There's a reason a new level 1 char
can;t buy armor of the stars, or such, and I prefer to play the game
according to the rules set out by the designers. I don;t mind that it
will take a long time to build a level 40 Warrior, because I play maybe
once or twice a week.

Heck, like I said in another thread, if you want to hack your char, and
give yourself "Godly Plate of Barney" or King's Sword of Teletubbies", go
for it - as long as what *you're* doing doesnt interfere with someone
else's game. i think people who have similar mindsets towards gameplay and
style will eventually find each other, and in the long run the "cheaters"
will not really bother the legit players too much - if they stick to their
own turf. BNet provides ample opportunity in the chat areas to find
players who agree to your game style. All you have to do is be open about
what you want to do, and establish ground rules before you go in.

But all anger and disdain *should* be directed towards PKer's who end
someone elses game simply to be *childish*. There's NO defense of PK-ing,
in my book. It's not cheating - it's being *childish*. I don;t have enough
time in the day to have a char I've spent hours online building up killed
out because some bored snot-nosed brat thinks PK-ing is "fun" or "cool".
Believe me, I would smack the living bejesus out of anyone who did
something like this to me in real life, and I'm NOT going to suffer it
online.

And yes, it *could* be worse - go read the Ultima Online forums sometime -
those guys *pay* to go online, and there's no WAY I'm going to PAY to have
some 12 year old sociopath kill out my char.

Cheaters are fine in my book, as long as they don;t screw up my game.
PK-ers, on the other hand, need a swift kick in the ass and need to have
their modems taken away by mommy and daddy.

Stalker~||AE||

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Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

Is this the same Thingfishhhh I just replied to??? :-))) You seem to have a
much better understanding here in this post and I agree with you completely.
The only thing I dont understand, and Im not trying to "push" you in any
direction, but, why dont you run a simple Godmode from players hack and be
done with PKs for good? I realize you are legit, so am I. If I go into a
public game (rarely) I make sure my character is protected...yea, gold is
free and so what If I lose half of it, its the principle, and It is MY gold
that I earned. Not only that, but just to avoid the inconvienience of it
all. Having to restart in town sucks and you have Mr. PK waiting for you at
the bottom of the portal. If I am having a good game where the drops are
decent, Ill be damned if Im leaving because some moron tried to kill me. I
put my legit mind to work and beat him at his own game. Ill make him work to
find me if hes that persistent. If you are immune from players and you are
playing by yourself in public, how does that take away from your game when
Mr. PK comes along? When you find others you trust, deactivate the
protection and have a good time.

Stalker~||AE||

Thingfishhhh wrote in message ...

>In article <19981206001235...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
>daia...@aol.com (DaIai Lama) wrote:
>

>> >Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
>> >significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
>> >IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
>> >them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
>> >disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.
>>
>> Nobody made another player play legit either. So if someone is playing
legit
>> than they deserve whatever disliek and disrespect they get from the
dupers and
>> cheaters right? (See Tovemi's post on Battlnet musings for examples of
this).
>

Thingfishhhh

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Dec 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/6/98

to

In article <74dou1$u46$1...@hornet.fibr.net>, "Stalker~||AE||"
<stalke...@yahoo.comREMOVEXXXTOREPLY> wrote:

> Is this the same Thingfishhhh I just replied to??? :-))) You seem to have a
> much better understanding here in this post and I agree with you completely.
> The only thing I dont understand, and Im not trying to "push" you in any
> direction, but, why dont you run a simple Godmode from players hack and be
> done with PKs for good? I realize you are legit, so am I. If I go into a
> public game (rarely) I make sure my character is protected...yea, gold is
> free and so what If I lose half of it, its the principle, and It is MY gold
> that I earned. Not only that, but just to avoid the inconvienience of it
> all. Having to restart in town sucks and you have Mr. PK waiting for you at
> the bottom of the portal. If I am having a good game where the drops are
> decent, Ill be damned if Im leaving because some moron tried to kill me. I
> put my legit mind to work and beat him at his own game. Ill make him work to
> find me if hes that persistent. If you are immune from players and you are
> playing by yourself in public, how does that take away from your game when
> Mr. PK comes along? When you find others you trust, deactivate the
> protection and have a good time.
>
> Stalker~||AE||

Weeeelll,

Thanks for the reply, Stalker. The reason i don;t use Godmode is that I'm
on a Macintosh, and don;t have the ability to use these files - at least i
havent seen anything that indicates I can. I have used one of the Mac
trainers successfully (just to see if it worked - it did *grin*) but
that's about all i can use.

You have a good point, and I encourage anyone to develop hacks that make
one immune to PKs - but you have to remember the majority of Diablo
players probably don;t read this NG (It's amazing how many people have no
clue Usenet even exists) or have the inclination/ability to use the
hacks. This NG serves a great purpose in that it provides information to
those who are new to the whole BNet thing - but we could *really* use a
comprehensive FAQ, with a "What do I do about PK's?" section, but that's
open for debate.

Sooo, until i buy a Wintel box later this year, Godmode is pretty much out
of reach for me. Oh well. All I do is spoof an Appletalk connection
locally, and play MP to my hearts content. When I'm more skilled at the
game i plan on joining Justus, to avoid PKs, and to play with the regular
posters here.

Adam Kusnierz

unread,

Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

In article <19981206001235...@ng-fi1.aol.com>, DaIai Lama
<daia...@aol.com> writes

>>Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
>>significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
>>IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
>>them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
>>disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.
>
>Nobody made another player play legit either. So if someone is playing legit
>than they deserve whatever disliek and disrespect they get from the dupers and
>cheaters right? (See Tovemi's post on Battlnet musings for examples of this).

No. The difference between two groups (cheaters + PKers vs legits) is
that by the very nature of their play legits do not interfere with ill
effects on games of others. They _CAN_ do that, but it would have
nothing to do with their playing style. By contrast a cheater with
smashing personality hurts legit game just by being there with whatever
cheat(s) (s)he has enabled.

>Is Flag football cheating? Is football even a cheated version of Rugby and
>Soccer? Is playing the all king's version of checker's cheating?

No, these are _different_ games. Not every game involving two teams,
goals and a ball must be football.

>Games have rules. If all partcipants involved agree to alter those rules than
>it is no longer cheating, unless they are part of a still larger competition.

>So if Player A enters a game and says "I like to use no Drops, in case we get
>lagged out" and Player B says, "No problem, I use it too" Than guess
>what......

>NEITHER is cheating!

You are being slightly ridiculous. In your example above BOTH are
cheating. Terminology has been established to make communication easier,
not to make cheats feel good/acceptable about what they are doing. They
cheating and while there is nobody there to be unwillingly affected that
in itself does not change the definition of their act.
By the same token if two PKers meet in a game with nobody else in it, if
they admit it they are PKers no longer?

Still we are not talking about ppl that want to cheat in the company of
other cheats whilst having guts to owe up to cheating. We are talking
about cheats that pretend to be legit and spoiling games of others in a
manner no PK (if handled correctly) is able to.
And they are the vast majority. Kind of 'legits' that wear demonspike's
on both their ears and fingers. They cheat, they lie, then they enter
into other's games and hurt it. They got the rep for cheats to what it
is, and they deserve everything they get. Ppl you mentioned, kind,
considerate cheats that keep to themselves exists mostly in fairy tales
told in this NG on regular basis, and since they never interact with
legits they are never there to collect any abuse....or are they?

> They aren't using deception or any underhanded ways of
>gaining an advantage over each other.

perhaps not over each other, but then they don't compete against each
other, are they? They compete against the game, and with cheats they
gain advantage over _their_opponent_.

>Are they playing Diablo out of the box (with sanctioned upgrades)?
>
>Most certainly not.
>
>Is this cheating. If you said yes, guess again.

Didn't say anything, as it was not prompting for an answer ;P - no
question mark.

> Altering the rules is NOT
>cheating. Violating those rules is.

Agreed. But changes to the rules in the game _must_ apply to both
participating sides (or however many sides are participating). Lets stay
with 'no drops' mention by you for a while. For it to _not_ be cheating
it must apply to all the monsters as well. Now go on and engage no
drops, but if one monster drops gold, AC or a weapon it IS cheating.

> Take a look at softball instead of
>baseball, or baseball instead of cricket? Wiffleball? Hmmm Are aluminum bats
>cheating?

Depends. If you bring one of those to a chess game with intention to
intimidate your opponents it most certainly is ;)

>
>Why are there so many forms of solitaire? Are all of them except one cheating?

You are just trying to water down your argument. There are different
games, and there are different playing styles within the same game.
Altered rules do not favour one side. Cheating does that.

>So henceforth, if someone wants to say, Player Y doesn't play by Blizzard
>sanctioned rules, I will have no problems accepting that. If they want to
>say that the player is a cheater, they will have to show me where that person
>is practicing duplicity.

There ARE other forms of cheating in Diablo than duping. If player Y
wants to cheat the least one can expect of him to have guts to admit it.
All this gaming PC is silly.

>If the person not playing by Blizzard's rules, (And I'm sure this phrase is
>rubbing people the wrong way, but they can go down and tell all the college
>basketball teams that they are cheaters because they don't play by NBA rules)
>tries to come into a game and say that they got their items by adhering to Bliz
>rules (gotta shorten that somehow) than they would indeed be cheating.
>Honesty is as big a part of determining cheating as what they are doing.

Nope. The definition of 'cheating' is not dynamic. I am quite amused by
your suggestion that it is. Read the definition! It states quite clearly
what it involves, and that term is not altered by cheating person
admission.

>I'm not going to be dissuaded by such arguments as generally acccepted
>definitions.

Pity, since it's nothing else than generally accepted definitions that
makes communications possible. If you want to redefine each and every
term to suit your arguments that conversation with you appear rather
futile.

> It is rather clear to me that people have different gaming
>styles, and some of those styles include different rules. If they didn't
>ironman couldn;'t exist, becuase I could come up to town and buy and shop
>whenever I wanted and call myself an Ironman.

Strangely enough we agree here, but yet I have seen numerous 'abuses' of
the term 'ironman' round here. Even though I sometimes object, or offer
corrections it is still open for interpretation wether I'm right. This
is precisely because there is no 'commonly accepted definition' for
'ironman'. There is one for 'cheating'.

>The fact that Iron man falls withing Bliz Rules, does not mean that other
>players have to stay within Bliz Rules to avoid cheating.

Yes, they have to stay within Bliz rules to play Diablo and avoid
cheating. Ironman has as much to do with it as table tennis. Regardless
of what the rules of either are it will not change the definition of
wether someone is cheating in Diablo, or, say, poker.

> Many gaming styles
>are altered rules, and as long as all players agree, it is not cheating.

Not that simple. This only applies for ageements made by players
competing against each other. If, on the other hand, you are running a
cheat in Diablo in a coop game it will not be a cheat if you alter code
in such way that all the monsters benefit from it in the same way you
do. Then it's altering the rules. If you give yourself an advantage and
deny monsters the same advantage then it's cheating.

>Sorry if this doesn't sit well with some, but it is true.

Sorry, but it's not. You are wrong, and I think by now you should
realise it.

[snip: PC again to make cheats feel good about themselves ;)]

>I have a great deal of respect for those who play Diablo the hard way (Bliz
>Rules, Iron Man, BNM), and personally, I enjoy the challenge of the game.
>Sometimes, I enjoy taking my 40+ level character, and blowing through normal
>hell like a chainsaw through tissue paper, but there certainly isn't anything
>wrong with feeling like playing an easy game sometimes, and having a challenge
>on another night. If you stop and think for a second, that is all someone
>with a trainer is doing. Making the game easy. If they aren't affectting
>you
>(a snippet on this later) than you have no moral right to criticize them.

Those that are NOT going into legit games with their cheats enabled I am
not criticising. Contrarry to many claims here I don't think they exist.
They are looking for ways to explain their behaviour, so they can go
into legit game, claim that they are not cheating and not feel guilty
about it.
And I have every moral right to criticise what I perceive as wrong, as
long as I don't engage in any similar activity myself. I believe
cheating is worst 'evil' that happened to b.net. Are you denying me my
right to express this opinion? Because it may upset those that break the
rules?

>The game would be a lot tough for mages if they had to stop casting spells
>wouldn't it? Should I cry out in indginity becuase high powered mages have it
>easy?

Should you run 'spells as skill' or 'unlimited mana', or 'all spells at
lvl15' for your character to 'even up the odds' (familiar with that last
expression?)

> Lest you think that statements is silly, look at Iron man. It evolved
>because the game was too easy.
>
>Now if you want to chastise someone for taking the easy way out, and saying
>they should do it the fun way, than you will have a valid critique.

Perhaps, but I have no time to criticise those that being sad and engage
in some activity I would not even consider in their game, or in the
privacy of their home. This is as long as their action do not affect
unwilling participants.

> The game,
>however is for enjoyment. If you don't like the set of rules that others have
>set up for themselves, don't play with them, and leave it at that.

That is ALL legits want to do! NOT play with them. From my days prior to
ironman I know that it is NOT the way things are on b.net. I want to be
able to trust ppl when they say they are 'legit'. Cheaters have made it
impossible. They insist on joining games, which offer them no
invitation. Once there over 90% will claim they are legit, when it's
obvious that they are not. I don't want to spend time investigating
other players. I want to play the game, and many times the enjoyment was
stolen from me by those with consideration for themselves only.

>Now if they come into your games (and I am sure in public games, and some
>private that a great number of them do) and try to pull off their non Bliz
>playing style, than they are JUST PLAIN RUDE. If you aren't going to play by
>Bliz rules, you should darn well be willing to respect the game of those that
>do abide by them. (I don't mean to be critical of any player of group by this
>remark -just trying to point out that Legit (and I think Legit is a good term
>for those who do abide by Bliz Rules) players have a very good reason for
>griping at all the non-legit players that come into their games, and refuse to
>play legit or leave.

We agree then.

>It comes down to honor and respect. Use a little communciation and a lot of
>respect for others, and the rest of the labeling and caste system will fall
>apart because it is not needed.
>
>What is needed is a little bit of tolerance.

Don't think it's whats needed. You are asking legits to overlook wasted
time when they had their games hurt by cheaters. You could as well be
asking for tolerance towards PKers. As long as lack of consideration
exists, as long group of ppl (whatever playing 'style' they choose to
play) show in games uninvited and impose their game on others, that
clearly do not want to play their way there can be no tolerance. And
there should not be.
--
Adam Kusnierz

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

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In article <Thingfishhhh-0...@ppp-206-170-29-195.wnck11.pacb
ell.net>, Thingfishhhh <Thingf...@yahoo.com> writes

>In article <19981206001235...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
>daia...@aol.com (DaIai Lama) wrote:
>

>> >Why is that? Is hatered and disrespect towards PKers demonstrated by
>> >significant numbers in this NG any more acceptable?
>> >IMO both groups (cheats and PKers) get what they deserve. Nobody made
>> >them cheat or PK - it was their own decision and some ppl dislike and
>> >disrespect that kind of lack of consideration.
>>
>> Nobody made another player play legit either. So if someone is playing legit
>> than they deserve whatever disliek and disrespect they get from the dupers
>and
>> cheaters right? (See Tovemi's post on Battlnet musings for examples of
>this).
>

> Great post snipped.
>
>To answer the original question, I think the hatred is aimed more towards
>the PKers who kill out players for no reason at all than is aimed at
>"cheaters".

No it wasn't. It was aimed at players with no consideration to impose
their playing style on others. To come into their games uninvited and
spoil those games for those already in them. This description fits both
cheaters and PKers. IMO neither group deserves any respect, and 'they
are playing the game the way they enjoy it' line of argument does not
cut any ice with me. I'd even go further to say that cheats are worse
from the two, and it's for two reasons. First of all PKers just kill
players and leave (move on to some other games I'd imagine). You can
just dust yourself off, wait 5 mins or so for PKer to leave and carry on
where you left off. Same isn't true for cheaters. More often than not
the effect they had on the game render it no longer playable. And the
vast majority of them would first insist they are legit, then would
refuse to leave very often out of spite (if I can't play here nobody
will).
Also it is true of PKers that majority of the cheat. Were they not to do
that most of them would not PK. I claim that cheating is a real problem
here, whilst PK is just a side-effect.

[...]

>Heck, like I said in another thread, if you want to hack your char, and
>give yourself "Godly Plate of Barney" or King's Sword of Teletubbies", go
>for it - as long as what *you're* doing doesnt interfere with someone
>else's game. i think people who have similar mindsets towards gameplay and
>style will eventually find each other, and in the long run the "cheaters"
>will not really bother the legit players too much - if they stick to their
>own turf.

How naive can one get? Cheats bother legits _PLENTY_ that's why they
have the reputation they do. Lack of respect towards their playing
'style' is a direct consequence of their inconsiderate behaviour. They
brought it upon themselves, and they get what they deserve.

[...]

>But all anger and disdain *should* be directed towards PKer's who end
>someone elses game simply to be *childish*. There's NO defense of PK-ing,
>in my book.

There are several 'lines of defence' but I'm not going to engage in
defending PKers either. PKers deserve your anger (with all possible
consequences) just as much as cheaters deserve that from legits whose
games they have spoiled.
I *do* take exception to you telling me (and everyone) at whom they
'should' direct their anger. I'm not telling you whom to like and whom
to hate (you make your own choice), and I expect that common curtesy
returned.

>It's not cheating - it's being *childish*. I don;t have enough
>time in the day to have a char I've spent hours online building up killed
>out because some bored snot-nosed brat thinks PK-ing is "fun" or "cool".
>Believe me, I would smack the living bejesus out of anyone who did
>something like this to me in real life, and I'm NOT going to suffer it
>online.

Huh? You'd smack them should they _kill_ you in rl?? That would surely
be something I'd like to see ;)

>And yes, it *could* be worse - go read the Ultima Online forums sometime -

I played it when it first came out. Came running back to Diablo and
b.net

>those guys *pay* to go online, and there's no WAY I'm going to PAY to have
>some 12 year old sociopath kill out my char.

Then you are in minority. There are/were number of games where killing
other characters is not only expected, but also rewarded (in game
terms). Diablo does not present a kind of environment that would support
support PKing. One of the reasons is that with max of 4 players/game its
just too small. Also, there are no risks or rewards connected with
despatching another character, so the whole practice is perfectly
pointless.

>Cheaters are fine in my book, as long as they don;t screw up my game.
>PK-ers, on the other hand, need a swift kick in the ass and need to have
>their modems taken away by mommy and daddy.

What about PKers that don't screw up your game either, then?
--
Adam Kusnierz

Stalker~||AE||

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

Again Adam you take perfectly valid points and skew them to some warped ass
view that only you can see. You seem to think that anyone that cheats should
be ashamed of themselves. You are a pitiful person to believe this. You dont
even play this game, use cheats, use utilities, know any of us, have
actually talked to any of us, yet you act like the all knowing, all
omnipotent God of Diablo and this NG. You stay away for weeks at a time
(blessedly) and pop in to stir things up when there is harmony. You are
nothing but a troll and troublemaker which has been proven time and time
again and even by your own admission. I think If I were like you (thankfully
I am not, nor is any of the other little trolls even close) I would put a
gun to my head and put myself out of everyone's misery. You benefit this NG
by 0 value. Hell, you benefit the human race by 0 value. I dont usually get
this pissed off at you, but I am sick to death of your double-talk,
hypocrisy, condescending mouth and your astronomically huge ego. You were
probably some little panty waist that got his butt kicked every single day
of his life in the schoolyard by the same people you now annoy in NG's. And
probably for trying to tell the other people how to have fun, which is
something you apparently dont know how to do. If you actually even played
the game, knew how some of the cheats actually worked instead of trying to
impress the world with your knowledge of nothing, listened to an opinion
other than your own, quit talking to everyone like you wrote the freaking
book and got your nose out of the air, you might actually have a slight
particle of validity to your statements at one point.

Stalker~||AE||

Slider

unread,

Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

LOL. Come on Stalker, jump down off that fence and tell us how you really
feel!! :-)

--
***************************************************
Slider ICQ # 6363693 sli...@rarn.nildram.co.uk
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~gsmith/sliders.htm (under construction)
B/Net #2296339 Kali nick +Slider+
***************************************************
Stalker~||AE|| wrote in message <74ha1h$slr$1...@hornet.fibr.net>...

Hai Wong

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

Hi, Stalker.
You are understandably upset at this person for trying to force his ideas
and views on others but I just want to make a suggestion. If you realize
that he's a troll who seeks only to "fan the flames" so to speak, why not
just ignore him? Trolls, like other attention seekers, will probably get
bored when they see that nobody is responding to them and move on. You
probably know this already so I'll shutup now. :)

Hai Wong
Blood-n-Guts, level 44 warrior
Stiletto, level 37 rogue
Fire_Hazard, level 41 sorcerer

e-mail: hai_...@yahoo.com
ICQ : 14566535

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Stalker~||AE|| wrote:

> Again Adam you take perfectly valid points and skew them to some warped ass
> view that only you can see. You seem to think that anyone that cheats should
> be ashamed of themselves. You are a pitiful person to believe this. You dont
> even play this game, use cheats, use utilities, know any of us, have
> actually talked to any of us, yet you act like the all knowing, all
> omnipotent God of Diablo and this NG. You stay away for weeks at a time
> (blessedly) and pop in to stir things up when there is harmony. You are
> nothing but a troll and troublemaker which has been proven time and time
> again and even by your own admission. I think If I were like you (thankfully
> I am not, nor is any of the other little trolls even close) I would put a
> gun to my head and put myself out of everyone's misery. You benefit this NG
> by 0 value. Hell, you benefit the human race by 0 value. I dont usually get
> this pissed off at you, but I am sick to death of your double-talk,
> hypocrisy, condescending mouth and your astronomically huge ego. You were
> probably some little panty waist that got his butt kicked every single day
> of his life in the schoolyard by the same people you now annoy in NG's. And
> probably for trying to tell the other people how to have fun, which is

> something you apparently dont know how to do. If you actually even played

Del

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

Stalker~||AE|| <stalke...@yahoo.comREMOVEXXXTOREPLY> writes

>Again Adam you take perfectly valid points and skew them to some warped ass
>view that only you can see. You seem to think that anyone that cheats should
>be ashamed of themselves. You are a pitiful person to believe this. You dont
>even play this game, use cheats, use utilities, know any of us, have
>actually talked to any of us, yet you act like the all knowing, all
>omnipotent God of Diablo and this NG. You stay away for weeks at a time
>(blessedly) and pop in to stir things up when there is harmony. You are
>nothing but a troll and troublemaker which has been proven time and time
>again and even by your own admission. I think If I were like you (thankfully
>I am not, nor is any of the other little trolls even close) I would put a
>gun to my head and put myself out of everyone's misery. You benefit this NG
>by 0 value. Hell, you benefit the human race by 0 value. I dont usually get
>this pissed off at you, but I am sick to death of your double-talk,
>hypocrisy, condescending mouth and your astronomically huge ego. You were
>probably some little panty waist that got his butt kicked every single day
>of his life in the schoolyard by the same people you now annoy in NG's. And
>probably for trying to tell the other people how to have fun, which is
>something you apparently dont know how to do. If you actually even played
>the game, knew how some of the cheats actually worked instead of trying to
>impress the world with your knowledge of nothing, listened to an opinion
>other than your own, quit talking to everyone like you wrote the freaking
>book and got your nose out of the air, you might actually have a slight
>particle of validity to your statements at one point.

Actually, in retrospect and when all's said and done, I kinda like Adam.
He's articulate and he isn't afraid to Rock The Boat, which right now
seems to be the main reason why people get upset by him [1].

[1] FWIW, as far as I am concerned the community side of things in this
NG is nice, but it can get a little wearisome IMHO.

--
Del

Casman

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

Del wrote in message ...

>[1] FWIW, as far as I am concerned the community side of things in this
>NG is nice, but it can get a little wearisome IMHO.
>
>--
>De

Dissent is surely a good thing in a group dedicated to discussion.
Different points of view are critical in any kind of analytical process.
The problems with
Adam's posts are that they are generally: personal attacks presented in an
antagonistic manner, have little basis in reality, and are highly biased
toward his wacky way of thinking. While he may have the right to post
whatever garbage his brain comes up with--some people are going to get upset
at his obvious attempts to "stir things up." Being a pain in the @ss just
for the sake of being a pain in the @ss is more tiresome than group harmony.
(which there is actually very little of--if we are referring to converging
thought patterns). Stalker means that most of the regulars get along
*despite our differences* and are able to discuss a topic without all the
nastiness. Adam seems to lack that ability and therefore is the target of
derision.

--
"Some days you are the windshield--and some days you are the bug"

Moon~Shadow (Rogue), Khandurian (Sorcerer) and Red~Leader (Warrior)
Now also appearing as -+=KillaBee=+- PKK and Brl~Hunter(BNM)
remove THESPAM to reply

Kaymen

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

I think Adam pops in every now and then just to get a response from
you, Stalker, because he knows he pisses you off. :-) I think you're
the main reason he keeps hanging around.

Kaymen

>Stalker~||AE||
>

Kaymen - lvl 35 rogue (Diablo)
Memnoch-S - lvl 32 mage (Diablo)
Kaymen-Rogue - lvl 11 rogue (Hellfire)

Z-man

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Dec 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/7/98

to

paladijn wrote:
>
> Do you expect to be taken seriously or should I just put you in the ignore file?
> You are accusing others of how bad things tat they do are while you are doing
> them yourself... perhaps you should re-read certain posts and start thinking
> what you are doing here.
> Also you seem to have the nice tendency to post your insults in the subject,
> hnce changing the following threads ehaders if people don't rechange it...
>
> Regards,
> palad

Perhaps you should stop taking the side of trolls, or is that what they
do now, help one another? Oh, and he is taken very seriousely, just not
by people like you. Maybe, JUST maybe, you should read what people
before you have said before you tell him if he is taken seriousely.

Sherrie Schell

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 20:29:05 +0000, Del <postm...@gaffe.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>Actually, in retrospect and when all's said and done, I kinda like Adam.
>He's articulate and he isn't afraid to Rock The Boat, which right now
>seems to be the main reason why people get upset by him [1].
>

>[1] FWIW, as far as I am concerned the community side of things in this
>NG is nice, but it can get a little wearisome IMHO.
>
>--

>Del

I kind of like Adam too. However, I find these endless threads over
what constitutes cheating fairly boring and repetitive. Almost
everybody paid good money for the game and can play however they want.
If the way they want to play disturbs me (i.e. PKing), there is
always the Justus channel. The secret to enjoying Diablo MP is
finding a way to play with people who play in way you can enjoy, no
matter what hacks or cheats they may use. This NG has allowed me to
do that. Thanks.

Sherrie (planning on ressurecting Wassail, because 'tis the season)

paladijn

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

paladijn

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

Well, I haven't been here in the past when you had your "discussions" with Adam,
but your and others approach of people that think like Adam and himself isn't
that kind as you would like him and the others to be.

Regards,
palad

Casman wrote:

> Del wrote in message ...
>

> >[1] FWIW, as far as I am concerned the community side of things in this
> >NG is nice, but it can get a little wearisome IMHO.
> >
> >--

paladijn

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

It was until this thread that I understood you have a divernt meaning for the word
Troll *sigh*... I've seen you reply earlier to the other thread on this subject Z-man,
I wasn't impressed by your insultive way of replying then, nor am I now. If you can't
make more sense and/or answer qquestions posted then refrain from replying. It
prevents me from ignoring you when you DO have a point to make and are making it in a
"nicer" way.

Regards,
palad

Stalker~||AE||

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

Adam posted long ago that he killfiled me and I believe he did. This post
was mostly for me to vent.

Stalker~||AE||

Kaymen wrote in message <366c6a2a...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...

>I think Adam pops in every now and then just to get a response from
>you, Stalker, because he knows he pisses you off. :-) I think you're
>the main reason he keeps hanging around.
>
>Kaymen
>
>On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:24:45 -0600, "Stalker~||AE||"

DaIai Lama

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

>No. The difference between two groups (cheaters + PKers vs legits) is
>that by the very nature of their play legits do not interfere with ill
>effects on games of others.

So if a legit joins a public game in progress with two cheaters in there, and
he goes down and after finding out that they cheat, he starts complaining and
ranting about how cheating sucks. He has thereby interfered with the game,
with ill effects on them.

If you are talking common co-op considerate play, then of course, they would
probably not be interfering.

>By contrast a cheater with smashing personality
> hurts legit game just by being there with whatever
>cheat(s) (s)he has enabled.

"smashing personality" <- that' sthe operating term. A considerate person
wouldn't knowingly hurt anybody's game. I'm certainly not going to put up any
defense that most people are honorable or considerate. (or that they are
dishonorable)

>>Is Flag football cheating?

>No, these are _different_ games.

Flag Football is a variation, but it is still the game of football, just as
College Football and NFL Pro Football, and Canadian Football, and Arena
Football are variations . Just as one flag to tackle, and two flags to tackle
are variations. They are designed to make the game easier and less brutal,
but still keep it as close to the original rules. Variety is the spice of
life.

>You are being slightly ridiculous. In your example above BOTH are
>cheating. Terminology has been established to make communication easier,
>not to make cheats feel good/acceptable about what they are doing.

>They >cheating and while there is nobody there to be unwillingly affected that
>in itself does not change the definition of their act.

The definition of cheating DIRECTLY involves the effect. If nothing is taken,
there cannot be theft. If no duplicity was used and no undue advantage was
taken then there is no cheating.

>By the same token if two PKers meet in a game with nobody else in it, if
>they admit it they are PKers no longer?

That would depend on what you define as a PK? If we are to assume that a PK is
someone who kills any other unwilling partcipant: Than we have a few possible
resolutions.

1) the PKs agree to fight each other. In which case, they are no longer PK's
they are duelists.

2)One or both decide not to fight, but one or both tries to kill the other one.
In which case one or both are still PK.

3)Neither attacks the other (regardless of accepted challenge) Than for that
game, neither is a PK.

>Still we are not talking about ppl that want to cheat in the company of other
cheats whilst having guts to owe up to cheating.

YES! This IS what I am talking about!!! These are the people that I am
referring to.

>We are talking
>about cheats that pretend to be legit

If they pretend to be legit, than they are using duplicity and they ARE
CHEATING! I agree wholeheartedly on this part.

>and spoiling games of others

If they are pretending to be legit, than yes they can spoil the games of legits
and purists. I think it is their responsibility to make sure they don't do
that, and that they communicate to let people know.

>And they are the vast majority.

That is why Tony keeps an honorable player list. Someone who doesn't care
about another's game isn't someone I would want to play with. I don't think
using trainers/dats and playing honorably are mutually exclusive. The fact
that a lot of players are inconsiderate is part of the same reason there are so
many PKs.

>Ppl you mentioned, kind,
>considerate cheats that keep to themselves exists mostly in fairy tales
>told in this NG on regular basis, and since they never interact with
>legits they are never there to collect any abuse....or are they?

Some people play both legit and cheating. They maintain separate characters
(just as some have purist, legit, BNM, and ironman characters).

>They compete against the game, and with cheats they
>gain advantage over _their_opponent_.

A computer or program is incapable of being deceived as it cannot perceive
anything. Underhandedness is an inherant part of cheating. Just as you
cannot have a triangle with only two sides, you cannot have cheating without
duplicity. As an example, if someone's parents set the rules for a curfew of
10 o'clock on weekends, andthe child stayed out until midnight, that child
would have broken the rules, but they would not be cheating. If a group of
adults were playing softball with a few children participating, and the
children asked to have the pitches thrown slower so they can hit them, the
children wouldn't be cheating. Now if one of the parents intentionally threw
the pitch slow to his own child, without telling the others or helping the
others, than he would be cheating.

It's very easy to misapply words that we all think we understand. When the
word is one of derision, than a little more caution is in order than simply
thinking that of course that word means what everyone thinks it does.

>Agreed. But changes to the rules in the game _must_ apply to both
>participating sides (or however many sides are participating). Lets stay
>with 'no drops' mention by you for a while. For it to _not_ be cheating
>it must apply to all the monsters as well. Now go on and engage no
>drops, but if one monster drops gold, AC or a weapon it IS cheating.
>

That is a good one. Inaccurate, but a good one. Can monsters buy potions or
upgrade their armor? Can monsters learn new spells? Can monsters cast heal on
each other? So, all players are cheating already, right?

Of course not. You can't cheat a Chia Pet out of its inheritance, and you
can't cheat a computer out of its victory.

>Depends. If you bring one of those to a chess game with intention to
>intimidate your opponents it most certainly is ;)

Never thought of that tactic. I might have won more than 2 or 3 matches a
month. :-) Of course, a legit KSoH should be allowed.

>Why are there so many forms of solitaire? Are all of them except one
>cheating?
>

>You are just trying to water down your argument. There are different
>games, and there are different playing styles within the same game.

I'm not watering it down at all. I'm just pointing out that coins (round ones)
have three sides, NOT two as most people assume. I am trying to persuade that
these so called "cheaters" (the honorable ones only!) are playing a different
game of Diablo, with a different style.

>Altered rules do not favour one side.

In most games, there is a winner and a loser. I don't know of too many games
where you can go on and on forever (with increasing odds in your favor) to make
sure that you win. The game is already highly in favor of the human side
(which is why people don't NEED to cheat). A 1st level newbie player ineptly
running a trainer has no more advantage, and in many cases less so than an
experienced players with a 48th level mage running normal hell runs for
jewlery.

And yes there are games with altered rules to favor one side. Teachers and
students will play softball that way (favoring the kids), In Junior High
School track, you can use lighter shot puts to make it easier (and that record
book isn't more of an opponent than a computer- Even the shot put and the dirt
it lands on are as cognizant as a computer). Are there easy skiing routes,
and tough ones? Remember those trees and moguls are as much an opponent as
any computer. In fact, more so. How many Bnet players are killed by their
computer opponent? How many skiers are killed by trees?

Cheating does that.

>If they want to
>>say that the player is a cheater, they will have to show me where that
>person
>>is practicing duplicity.

>There ARE other forms of cheating in Diablo than duping.

In case you misundertsood me, duplicity is lying, underhandness, sneaking, in
short practicing deceptibe behavior. It is not duplication of anything.

>All this gaming PC is silly.

It is, and it isn't. It is silly, because we all should be gaming and foregt
completely about labels and accusations. It is not silly, because calling
someone a cheater is a very negative term, much like calling someone a jerk.
While the accuser may say, "If the shoe fits" and I am syaing, that sometimes
the accuser is trying to shove that size 5 glass slipper on a size 14 foot.

>Nope. The definition of 'cheating' is not dynamic.

Exactly!!!! The definition is static, and the definition REQUIRES
deceptiveness.

>Read the definition!

I have, it is as I am talking about.

>Pity, since it's nothing else than generally accepted definitions that
>makes communications possible.

Generally accepted definitions may in time become THE accepted definitions, but
in the meantime if wrong, they are ,...well wrong. As an example, MOST
people (in the US at least) will say "I could care less" when they mean "I
couldn't care less" . By saying "I could care less" when they mean they don't
give a hoot, they have made an error in their speech. Sounds obvious right?
Well, many lexicographers are considering adding "I could care less" as the
equivalent of "I couldn't care less". At the present time, they haven't done
this, but they might. The definitions of language changes (and rightly so),
but just because 10 million people think the Geographic North Pole and the
Magnetic North pole are the same do not make it so.

>If you want to redefine each and every
>term to suit your arguments that conversation with you appear rather
>futile.

I am not refining. I am delineating the definition as it exists.

>Strangely enough we agree here, but yet I have seen numerous 'abuses' of
>the term 'ironman' round here. Even though I sometimes object, or offer
>corrections it is still open for interpretation wether I'm right.

If the most commonly practiced Ironman were to set up a sanctioning body, and
promote their version of the rules, than they would eventually be recognized.

>This
>is precisely because there is no 'commonly accepted definition' for
>'ironman'. There is one for 'cheating'.

I'd say it is more so, because there is not a universally accepted or practiced
version of Diablo rules. Let's say I were to come up with a version called
scavenger hunt, and teams of two players were sent down to find specific items
(lets say they had to find one ring of engagement, an item of the vulture, and
a kings item) They can use trainers, or do anything but import the item, or
have somoene else hand it to them. If these players use god mode, that's ok.
If they use unlimted gold, that's ok. They just have to come up with the
items and not import them, or have someone give them to them. In this case,
they would NOT be cheating by using "all spells as skills".

That may seem a little obvious. Lets say three players, decide they just want
to kill everything and chat while doing it. Just because their rules aren't
as stringent (pushing the usage on that word) and the game isn't challenging,
doesn't mean they are now cheating.

Who are they cheating? Do the monsters get to keep the drops and sell them if
the characters don't kill them? Will the Butcher finally get to go on a nice
cruise, because he went all night without anyone stealing his cleaver?

>Yes, they have to stay within Bliz rules to play Diablo and avoid
>cheating.

They do not.

>Regardless
>of what the rules of either are

Ah, how can this be so? Regardless of the rules.....
Think about what was just said.
If we are to disregard the rules, than there can be no rules to violate.

>it will not change the definition of
>wether someone is cheating in Diablo,

So if Blizzard came out with a new patch that lowered max spell levels to 10,
than it would OK to disregard those rules and use a mage with level 15 spells?

>If you give yourself an advantage and
>deny monsters the same advantage then it's cheating.

Again, I'll question how many players see the monsters buying armor or KSoH's
from an underground blacksmith. Do the monsters level up?

It could be argued that Blizzard has given you these advantages. Does that
make them any less advantages? Is it a fair game of one on one basketball with
Michael Jordan if you are an ordinary player? Is Michael Jordan cheating by
playing you? No. If you had a work basketball team and you made a bet that
you could beat
your suppliers company team, and they hire Michael Jrodan for a day so they can
beat your are they cheating? Yes, they are. Its called using a "ringer" and
it is cheating not because it violates rules, but becuase it uses a deceptive
manner in order to gain an advantage.

>Sorry, but it's not. You are wrong, and I think by now you should
>realise it

I am not wrong. I think we are both looking at the same thing from different
perspectives.

>[snip: PC again to make cheats feel good about themselves ;)]

Sorry, how about those who try to make themselves look better at the expense of
others? I could throw that out and it would be as valid.

>Those that are NOT going into legit games with their cheats enabled I am
>not criticising.

Those are the only ones I am talking about. The ones who go in without
announcing that they are not legit, are by definition (deceptiveness) cheating.

> Contrarry to many claims here I don't think they exist.

I can certainly see why you could come to that conclusion. I have seen and
played with some, so I know they are out there.

>They are looking for ways to explain their behaviour, so they can go
>into legit game, claim that they are not cheating and not feel guilty
>about it.

There are a lot of those. No disagreement there.

>And I have every moral right to criticise what I perceive as wrong, as
>long as I don't engage in any similar activity myself.

you can still criticise it, even if you practice it. (Just as an addict can
rightly criticise the evils of drug use, because they have experienced first
hand its effects). However to say that our opinions must be limited to things
we have or have not experienced or done would exclude most of human endeavors.
Should pilots be allowed to get drunk before flying? I don't think I should
have to be a drunk or a pilot to answer that. I also don't think a pilot who
did drink should be excluded from his opinion on it.

>I believe
>cheating is worst 'evil' that happened to b.net. Are you denying me my
>right to express this opinion? Because it may upset those that break the
>rules?

I'm no more denying you an opinion than you are denying me one. (I seriously
doubt your freedom of speech is jeapordized by public opinion on this matter)

What I am saying is that the name calling (and calling someone a cheater when
they are not is name calling) doesn't need to be present. I have a friend who
Ice Climbs, and he laughs and derides the ordinary hikers. Criticising
cheaters who do not affect YOUR game is the very same thing.

>I don't want to spend time investigating
>other players. I want to play the game, and many times the enjoyment was
>stolen from me by those with consideration for themselves only.

I'm sorry that you and others have to put up with that. Pk's are doing the
same things for others' game enjoyment. I think inconsiderate people in all
forms are the common enemy here, whether they are running a dat or playing
within the code.

>>Legit players have a very good reason for

>>griping at all the non-legit players that come into their >>games, and refuse
to >>play legit or leave.

>We agree then.

Yes, we do.

>Don't think it's whats needed. You are asking legits to overlook wasted >time
when they had their games hurt by cheaters. You could as well be
>asking for tolerance towards PKers.

Ok, I see what you are driving at here. I will refrain from asking you not to
be angry (or annoyed or whatever degree of distaste you may have) at cheaters
in general,and ask you to consider that just as there are duelists, there are
considerate and honorable players who use trainers and whatnot. Maybe not
many, but if they are playing honorably they deserve as much respect as any
other player.

>As long as lack of consideration
>exists, as long group of ppl (whatever playing 'style' they choose to
>play) show in games uninvited and impose their game on others, that
>clearly do not want to play their way there can be no tolerance. And
>there should not be.

No tolerance for those who play that way at all. Whether they come down with
the 255 charge AAA, or they are the I'm killing everything and taking all the
XP player.

But until they have some way of qualifying the players, (which could lead to
all sorts of problems) it will be hard if not impossible to separate those who
are inconsiderate from those who are.

I will say that I do see your reasons for your opinions much more clearly now.
Perhaps, I have been spoiled by the very considerate and honorable players I
usually play with in the Justus channel.

Maybe some day we will have a chance to game together. until that time, I hope
you have more encounters with considerate players than rude ones. It is
certainly a shame when people just ignore others for their own pleasure.

Dalai Lama

Celleste

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:19:54 -0800, "Casman"
<casTHESP...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dissent is surely a good thing in a group dedicated to discussion.
>Different points of view are critical in any kind of analytical process.
>The problems with
>Adam's posts are that they are generally: personal attacks presented in an
>antagonistic manner, have little basis in reality, and are highly biased
>toward his wacky way of thinking.

His posts this round have been very carefully constructed
and do not contain personal attacks. I find myself able to
read all of them. I think it's unfair to categorize all his
posts in this manner when it's obvious you haven't read his
most recent ones. The first person to start using bad
language in what is sure to become another flame war is
Stalker. While it is true that Adam's posts in the past
have included personal attacks, it is not true in this go
round.

Celleste

Casman

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

Celleste wrote in message

>
>His posts this round have been very carefully constructed
>and do not contain personal attacks. I find myself able to
>read all of them. I think it's unfair to categorize all his
>posts in this manner when it's obvious you haven't read his
>most recent ones. The first person to start using bad
>language in what is sure to become another flame war is
>Stalker. While it is true that Adam's posts in the past
>have included personal attacks, it is not true in this go
>round.
>
>Celleste

Ummmm....Celleste, I admire your rosy view of the world...

I actually had Adam Killfiled and had to go back and read his posts. I
still find attacks on people in this newsgroup...not direct ones mind
you...but sideways and insidious ones. He hasn't changed a bit, IMO and I
don't expect him too. I agree that Stalker was probably a little out of
line...but he gets very upset about Adam's style of posting. (it pisses me
off too, which is why I kf'ed him) If you wanted, I could copy and paste
all of his attacks and insinuations...but that would be a waste of time.
Try going back and really reading what he's saying and inferring--then
perhaps you'll understand. And while it may be unfair to say that ALL of
his posts are nasty...that is not what I said...I said "Generally, Adam's
posts are..." Generally is not an all-inclusive term--some of Adam's posts
have been downright reasonable, but IMO the vast majority are not.

Z-man

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

I know quite well what the word means, and everyone is a "troll" at
times, but it's people like you that wish to continue arguements that
get and keep the name. And if you want to ignore me, go ahead, I could
careless (haven't I said that before?) . Go ahead, do yourself a favor,
ignore me. You'll still see me around whether you want to or not. And
I won't have to do anything about it , that's the best part about it.

paladijn

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

Nov 22nd, Z-man repsonding to a serious post:
"God damnit, you're pissing me off, and I know you're a troll (this will
seriousely be the last time people). IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY PEOPLE
ARE PLAYING IN PUBLIC GAMES, GO PLAY A PRIVATE GAMES WITH YOUR FRIEND!"
If it was serieously the last time, why do you keep on insulting people and posting
nonsense? If you don't like what certain people write and don't have a answer that makes
snese then don't reply.

Regards,
paladijn

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

to

In article <366d43aa...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, Celleste
<cell...@hotmail.nixthis.com> writes

>His posts this round have been very carefully constructed
>and do not contain personal attacks.

No, they weren't. Lemme rephrase that - I have not put any special
effort I would not normally apply.

>I find myself able to
>read all of them.

I must be doing something wrong then (Some even said they liked me, well
... 'kinda') ;)

>I think it's unfair to categorize all his
>posts in this manner when it's obvious you haven't read his
>most recent ones.

Awww... but then - since when 'fair' had anything to do with considering
my posts?

>The first person to start using bad
>language in what is sure to become another flame war is
>Stalker.

There will be no flame war between me and Stalker. I have been there b4
and for a while now Stalker sits in my k/f. I found his arguments too
weak for me, and his language (Stalker starting using bad language is
nothing new - but I'd challange you to fish out profanities used by
myself _anytime_ in my posting history here) and his posting 'style'
simply unacceptable.

>While it is true that Adam's posts in the past
>have included personal attacks, it is not true in this go
>round.

And I will not think twice before making a personal attack again. But
only towards those that personally attack me, and have at least one
valid point. I have no time for likes of Stalker or Casman
--
Adam Kusnierz

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/8/98

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In article <366c6a2a...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, Kaymen
<kay...@BOOGERSxoommail.com> writes

>I think Adam pops in every now and then just to get a response from
>you, Stalker, because he knows he pisses you off. :-) I think you're
>the main reason he keeps hanging around.
>
>Kaymen

Now I'm offended! ;)

Stalker has been trying to throw me off balance for months, and you go
in and do just that without even trying. Do you _really_ think I would
consider Stalker (of all ppl) of any consequence??!!

I need to go and cool off, or I'll start swearing ;)
--
Adam Kusnierz

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/9/98

to

In article <19981208092148...@ng-ch1.aol.com>, DaIai Lama
<daia...@aol.com> writes

>>No. The difference between two groups (cheaters + PKers vs legits) is
>>that by the very nature of their play legits do not interfere with ill
>>effects on games of others.
>
>So if a legit joins a public game in progress with two cheaters in there, and
>he goes down and after finding out that they cheat, he starts complaining and
>ranting about how cheating sucks. He has thereby interfered with the game,
>with ill effects on them.

You are doing it again! ;) Lemme quote what you so skillfully cut out
from my previous post:

They _CAN_ do that, but it would have
nothing to do with their playing style.

This is what _I_ was talking about. Playing _style_. They (legits)
cannot bring ill effects just by participating in the game. What you are
talking about is their personal conduct, and I have never said legits
are all round angels. By contrast (to make the same point again) both PK
and cheaters DO affect legit games just by 'playing they enjoy to play'.

>If you are talking common co-op considerate play, then of course, they would
>probably not be interfering.

Oh, there are some that would. Luckily they are few and far between.
Those guys spend more time accusing others of cheating (very often just
'cos they have better equipment then the accusers) than playing the
game. I think it's not pride of being legit that's important to them but
they are there to be condesending to as many others as they can meet.
Met such ppl twice, and this experience was to me much more unpleasant
than being PKed, or meeting cheaters in my legit game.

>>By contrast a cheater with smashing personality
>> hurts legit game just by being there with whatever
>>cheat(s) (s)he has enabled.
>
>"smashing personality" <- that' sthe operating term. A considerate person
>wouldn't knowingly hurt anybody's game. I'm certainly not going to put up any
>defense that most people are honorable or considerate. (or that they are
>dishonorable)

No, you missed the point. Suppose you have a very good friend, that is
excellent in all regards (smashing personality), extreme fun to be with,
but has just one problem. He likes playing poker, he cheats at it (and
not very good at that). You never play him for money, perhaps for
matchsticks, or monopoly money, but you let him win since it means sooo
much to him. Whilst you may not enjoy that game of poker I doubt very
much you would want to stop seeing him. On the other hand - would you
consider playing him for real stakes?
Same thing with D. You may see no fault with ppl's personality, but if
you are legit, and KNOW their 'playing style' would spoil your enjoyment
would you rather just chat with that guy, and play with others?

[...]

>>You are being slightly ridiculous. In your example above BOTH are
>>cheating. Terminology has been established to make communication easier,
>>not to make cheats feel good/acceptable about what they are doing.
>
>>They >cheating and while there is nobody there to be unwillingly affected that
>>in itself does not change the definition of their act.
>
>The definition of cheating DIRECTLY involves the effect. If nothing is taken,
>there cannot be theft. If no duplicity was used and no undue advantage was
>taken then there is no cheating.

Not so, at least not legally. 'Attempted' or 'Intended' is enough to
secure a sentence.
Other than that I agree - if cheating did not occure, than activity
can't be called cheating ;) Somehow I don't think it was what you wanted
to put across.

>>By the same token if two PKers meet in a game with nobody else in it, if
>>they admit it they are PKers no longer?
>
>That would depend on what you define as a PK? If we are to assume that a PK is
>someone who kills any other unwilling partcipant:

Why 'unwilling'?! PK stands for 'Player Killer' so you are asking for
bigger stretch of imagination that I am willing to allow you ;)
But semantics aside...

>Than we have a few possible
>resolutions.
>
>1) the PKs agree to fight each other. In which case, they are no longer PK's
>they are duelists.

Which are sub-group of PKers, but thats only semantics again.

>2)One or both decide not to fight, but one or both tries to kill the other one.
> In which case one or both are still PK.
>
>3)Neither attacks the other (regardless of accepted challenge) Than for that
>game, neither is a PK.

How about:

4) They are both PKers, and this is ALL they do. They meet in a game and
claim that they both are PKers and both use Godmode. Then they go down
and try to kill one another for some 30 minutes without success. Are
they (according to your definition) NOT PKers for that 30 minutes?

[cutting as much as I can - mostly same points repeated few times]

>>Ppl you mentioned, kind,
>>considerate cheats that keep to themselves exists mostly in fairy tales
>>told in this NG on regular basis, and since they never interact with
>>legits they are never there to collect any abuse....or are they?
>
>Some people play both legit and cheating. They maintain separate characters
>(just as some have purist, legit, BNM, and ironman characters).

Or so they claim.

>>They compete against the game, and with cheats they
>>gain advantage over _their_opponent_.
>
>A computer or program is incapable of being deceived as it cannot perceive
>anything.

I must say this is a _revolutionary_ approach! ;) Are you saying now
that cheating is possible ONLY in MULTIPLAYER computer games? If you
edit your score in solitare, or use 'cheat codes' in solo game of
Warcraft that's not cheating? Why are those called 'cheat codes' than?

[...]

> >Agreed. But changes to the rules in the game _must_ apply to both
>>participating sides (or however many sides are participating). Lets stay
>>with 'no drops' mention by you for a while. For it to _not_ be cheating
>>it must apply to all the monsters as well. Now go on and engage no
>>drops, but if one monster drops gold, AC or a weapon it IS cheating.
>>
>
>That is a good one. Inaccurate, but a good one. Can monsters buy potions or
>upgrade their armor? Can monsters learn new spells? Can monsters cast heal on
>each other? So, all players are cheating already, right?

No. That is solved in different way. That's by having stronger monsters
with better AC and spells (able to open doors) as stronger players
venture deeper into dungeon. Computer games are not about being fair and
honest - they are about keeping interest, what translates into better
sales.
But D's monsters have their 'unfair advantages'. They never hurt by
their 'frendly fire', for example - something that is really
disappointing, and would be the basis for nice strategy (get the
monsters kill each other at the expense of not gained xp for kills).
Something that has been successfully implemented in other games like
'doom' (now some 7 years old?). Other advantage is that they 'see' much
further than you (archers will fire at you b4 they appear on your
screen). I don't think those are reason enough to engage 'godmode to
players'.

Think of it as different attributes ;) We have LUPs and new spells and
they have infravision for all, longer ranges of detection, unlimited
mana and friendly fire immunity.
As you rightly noticed odds are tipped in our favour anyway.

>Of course not. You can't cheat a Chia Pet out of its inheritance, and you
>can't cheat a computer out of its victory.

Of yes you can! Or are you saying that (for example) human player is
unable to loose a game of chess to a computer? If so, please explain to
Kasparov that his defeat did not take place.

[...]

>I'm not watering it down at all. I'm just pointing out that coins (round ones)
>have three sides,

Just like everything else in 3d world. Should the coins have 2 sides
that'd be cheating ;)

>NOT two as most people assume. I am trying to persuade that
>these so called "cheaters" (the honorable ones only!) are playing a different
>game of Diablo, with a different style.

OK. I take your word for it that they exist. I have not met any (and
claims made in this NG are similar to those made at b.net at large
that's why I'll take them with the pitch of salt). I was NOT referring
to them, and I had no intention to upset them, but I am NOT sorry if I
had. Fact of the matter is that if they cheating they are cheats
(honorable or otherwise), and I really don't see any reason why I should
tiptoe around them and their sensitivity. Sure they play different
style. And that difference is that they cheat, and I don't. Same with
PKers - they are playing 'different style' too ;)

>>Altered rules do not favour one side.
>
>In most games, there is a winner and a loser. I don't know of too many games
>where you can go on and on forever (with increasing odds in your favor) to make
>sure that you win. The game is already highly in favor of the human side
>(which is why people don't NEED to cheat). A 1st level newbie player ineptly
>running a trainer has no more advantage, and in many cases less so than an
>experienced players with a 48th level mage running normal hell runs for
>jewlery.

While it's true it changes nothing, really.

>And yes there are games with altered rules to favor one side. Teachers and
>students will play softball that way (favoring the kids),

Hmmm. By definition cheating involves _gaining_ advantage, not having it
handed to you.

> In Junior High
>School track, you can use lighter shot puts to make it easier (and that record
>book isn't more of an opponent than a computer- Even the shot put and the dirt
>it lands on are as cognizant as a computer).

Perhaps, but it is practicing, isn't it? Your examples fare way too far
from our player vs player (or computer) setup. Hitting a ball shot by a
machine can hardly be considered 'a game'.

> Are there easy skiing routes,
>and tough ones? Remember those trees and moguls are as much an opponent as
>any computer.

LOL
What about driving? Would you consider lamp posts your opposition and
other drivers potencial PKers? ;)

>In fact, more so. How many Bnet players are killed by their
>computer opponent?

Only on game reality terms. They all die, don't they? Or do you know
anyone who played on b.net and never had his _character_ killed by some
monster or other (this includes PK)

> How many skiers are killed by trees?

Dunno. Never knew one that died in such crash. Few friends of mine broke
legs and such - no fatalaties tho'

> Cheating does that.

Cheating makes trees kill ppl?!! WOW! We have to outlaw cheating RIGHT
NOW! ;)

>>All this gaming PC is silly.

>It is, and it isn't. It is silly, because we all should be gaming and foregt
>completely about labels and accusations. It is not silly, because calling
>someone a cheater is a very negative term, much like calling someone a jerk.
>While the accuser may say, "If the shoe fits" and I am syaing, that sometimes
>the accuser is trying to shove that size 5 glass slipper on a size 14 foot.

Not the case. There are different levels of cheating some more harmful
than others (to other players) and some bringing no harm to them at all.
Cheating is _still_ cheating even if it does not affect anyone that
would not want to be affected by it. I see no reason to re-invent
definitions because 'honourable cheats' can't came to terms that cheats
is what they are. It's pretty much as calling you an 'aol subscriber'
would be. Whilst you may not enjoy all associated connotations an 'aol
subscriber' is what you are.
I am not going to rub it in either. I know some legits do that (but like
I said its a VERY tiny minority), but this is all down to personal
conduct.
Otherwise - if you can't accept that you are a cheat - stop cheating.
(no, it wasn't directed at you)

>>Nope. The definition of 'cheating' is not dynamic.
>
>Exactly!!!! The definition is static, and the definition REQUIRES
>deceptiveness.
>
>>Read the definition!
>
>I have, it is as I am talking about.
>
>>Pity, since it's nothing else than generally accepted definitions that
>>makes communications possible.
>
>Generally accepted definitions may in time become THE accepted definitions, but
>in the meantime if wrong, they are ,...well wrong. As an example, MOST
>people (in the US at least) will say "I could care less" when they mean "I
>couldn't care less" . By saying "I could care less" when they mean they don't
>give a hoot, they have made an error in their speech. Sounds obvious right?
>Well, many lexicographers are considering adding "I could care less" as the
>equivalent of "I couldn't care less". At the present time, they haven't done
>this, but they might.

Very amusing. Is it the sign of things to come? Some ppl from their
social services chairs could one day decide that any answer given to any
question shall be correct, and save billions of dollars on education.
Just think - no more failed exams...wonderful, no? We would become a mob
of uneducated morons, but we would then be truly equal.

>The definitions of language changes (and rightly so),

Not so much changes as evolves. Some of it is good, some not so great.

[...]

>If the most commonly practiced Ironman were to set up a sanctioning body, and
>promote their version of the rules, than they would eventually be recognized.

Yes, but we are NOT looking for recognition. This way we avoid idiotic
attacks along the lines 'Who gave you the right to define the rules for
_my_ game of 'ironman'?' and at the same time those that ARE interested
in this playing style, and perhaps want to compete know that we are the
utmost authority on this style, and play by our rules.

>>This
>>is precisely because there is no 'commonly accepted definition' for
>>'ironman'. There is one for 'cheating'.
>
>I'd say it is more so, because there is not a universally accepted or practiced
>version of Diablo rules. Let's say I were to come up with a version called
>scavenger hunt, and teams of two players were sent down to find specific items
>(lets say they had to find one ring of engagement, an item of the vulture, and
>a kings item) They can use trainers, or do anything but import the item, or
>have somoene else hand it to them. If these players use god mode, that's ok.
> If they use unlimted gold, that's ok. They just have to come up with the
>items and not import them, or have someone give them to them. In this case,
>they would NOT be cheating by using "all spells as skills".

I guess not. Yes - I agree with you. But then you are limiting 'cheats'
to specific, minority game. Where killing monsters is at least one of
the objectives both of mentioned above could not be considered anything
other than cheating.

>That may seem a little obvious. Lets say three players, decide they just want
>to kill everything and chat while doing it. Just because their rules aren't
>as stringent (pushing the usage on that word) and the game isn't challenging,
>doesn't mean they are now cheating.

Only if you define their game as NOT a game. If they are not playing
they are not competing. If they ARE competing then they are competing
against the computer, and since they place it at strong disadvantage
(giving it no chance in fact) they are cheating.

>Who are they cheating?

It's not 'whom'. Its 'what at'. They are cheating at their game, unless
they are not playing one.

> Do the monsters get to keep the drops and sell them if
>the characters don't kill them? Will the Butcher finally get to go on a nice
>cruise, because he went all night without anyone stealing his cleaver?

No, monsters are not free to take few days off (Butch must really be
tired of being killed so many times now, its a wonder this guy still
comes out of his room when doors are open. Would be more fitting if he
came out saying 'Here we go again'). Monsters are there to kill or die.
If they can't kill it is as if they were not there at all - they may as
well go off to some other game when they meet more reasonable players ;)

>>Yes, they have to stay within Bliz rules to play Diablo and avoid
>>cheating.
>
>They do not.
>
>>Regardless
>>of what the rules of either are
>
>Ah, how can this be so? Regardless of the rules.....
>Think about what was just said.
>If we are to disregard the rules, than there can be no rules to violate.

Creating snipping again? ;) Should this not read regardless what rules
of _ironman, or table tennis_ are ppl that do not play D by Bizz rules
cheat at D?

>>it will not change the definition of
>>wether someone is cheating in Diablo,
>
>So if Blizzard came out with a new patch that lowered max spell levels to 10,
>than it would OK to disregard those rules and use a mage with level 15 spells?

It would be 'OK' not even finding out about those 'new rules'. If (on
the other hand) you were to participate in some D competition it would
most def. NOT be 'ok', unless ALL participants were allowed to reach lvl
15 spells, or use a mage with those already.

>>If you give yourself an advantage and
>>deny monsters the same advantage then it's cheating.
>
>Again, I'll question how many players see the monsters buying armor or KSoH's
>from an underground blacksmith. Do the monsters level up?

Already asked and answered.

[...]

>>[snip: PC again to make cheats feel good about themselves ;)]
>
>Sorry, how about those who try to make themselves look better at the expense of
>others? I could throw that out and it would be as valid.

Would be 'valid', but not in _this_ discussion - what about them?

>>Those that are NOT going into legit games with their cheats enabled I am
>>not criticising.
>
>Those are the only ones I am talking about.

Then my observation has to be that you intentionally overlook nasty
behaviour of vast, vast majority of cheaters only to whitewash a handful
of them (and we have nothing other that your word that they exist at
all).

>The ones who go in without
>announcing that they are not legit, are by definition (deceptiveness) cheating.

Well... some legits are later told 'you never asked'.

>> Contrarry to many claims here I don't think they exist.
>
>I can certainly see why you could come to that conclusion. I have seen and
>played with some, so I know they are out there.

Not trying to cast any shadows on your friends, but there are also
cheats that are more discreet than most. It's possible to play several
games with such and never realise they're cheating.

>>And I have every moral right to criticise what I perceive as wrong, as
>>long as I don't engage in any similar activity myself.
>
>you can still criticise it, even if you practice it. (Just as an addict can
>rightly criticise the evils of drug use, because they have experienced first
>hand its effects).

On the other hand being an addict discredits you from testyfying even in
drug related court case.

> However to say that our opinions must be limited to things
>we have or have not experienced or done would exclude most of human endeavors.

Not the point I was trying to make. _I_ have no axe to grind. I am not
defending PKers, but in my book cheats are (by large) not better than
PKers. Since I am not affected by actions of either group I think my
opinion of either carries added punch for that reason.

> Should pilots be allowed to get drunk before flying? I don't think I should
>have to be a drunk or a pilot to answer that. I also don't think a pilot who
>did drink should be excluded from his opinion on it.

I don't think pilot-alcoholic would be a reasonable source to approach
for advice on the subject. He may not see anything wrong with drunk
pilots, otherwise he would reconsider being one.

[...]

>What I am saying is that the name calling (and calling someone a cheater when
>they are not is name calling) doesn't need to be present.

None of that has taken place to my knowledge (calling someone a cheater
when he was not one). Furthermore I think your request to ban word
'cheat' from dictionaries, as it _may_ offend someone is unreasonable.

> I have a friend who
>Ice Climbs, and he laughs and derides the ordinary hikers. Criticising
>cheaters who do not affect YOUR game is the very same thing.

By the same token are you allowed to criticise ONLY the PKers that
showed up in your game and PKed you? You can't criticise PKers or cheats
as an attitude of no consideration???

> >I don't want to spend time investigating
>>other players. I want to play the game, and many times the enjoyment was
>>stolen from me by those with consideration for themselves only.
>
>I'm sorry that you and others have to put up with that.

This is long time in the past. But my comment was on a more general
note. I understand that side of b.net hasn't changed for better :(

> Pk's are doing the
>same things for others' game enjoyment. I think inconsiderate people in all
>forms are the common enemy here, whether they are running a dat or playing
>within the code.

Absolute agreement! And THIS is what _I_ was talking about. They soooo
much alike that's why neither deserves our respect, or they both do! I
vote for no respect.

[...]

>Ok, I see what you are driving at here. I will refrain from asking you not to
>be angry (or annoyed or whatever degree of distaste you may have) at cheaters
>in general,and ask you to consider that just as there are duelists, there are
>considerate and honorable players who use trainers and whatnot.

OK. Again I'll take your word for it (since you met them, and I have
not). And don't worry about me getting upset over it, it IS only a game.
If it weren't enjoyable experience I have enough sense to find other
things to do ;)

> Maybe not
>many, but if they are playing honorably they deserve as much respect as any
>other player.

Defining 'playing honourably' may give us more problems that we would
want expanding those posts way out of proportion, so let's let it rest.
I would like to mention that _my_ treatment of cheating players is very
much dependant on circumstances, in which I find out they are cheating.
If they say they cheat I may just ask them to disable all cheats for our
game, but more likely I'd ask them to leave. If I find out they are
cheating without their help I will do my best to remember them and not
play with them again (and will notify ppl I play with, or chat on
regular basis). If I find them cheating in ironman tourney I ban them
from entering tourney ever again (and the rest of the team in
disqualified, of course).
I try to do it in non-condesending, polite manner (unless they want to
do it 'the hard way'), so I provide them with even more respect than I
thnk they deserve in the first place.

[...]

>I will say that I do see your reasons for your opinions much more clearly now.
> Perhaps, I have been spoiled by the very considerate and honorable players I
>usually play with in the Justus channel.
>
>Maybe some day we will have a chance to game together. until that time, I hope
>you have more encounters with considerate players than rude ones. It is
>certainly a shame when people just ignore others for their own pleasure.

Perhaps. Sadly, my busy schadule does not allow me to play as much as I
would like. I am booked for the rest of this year, but I'll be on b.net
from Fri midnight (GMT). Visit /ironman channel and we'll talk about it
;)

--
Adam Kusnierz

Stalker~||AE||

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Dec 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/9/98

to

Only because we dont back down from you. :-) If my "cussin" offended you, I
am truly, deeply sorry....you just bring that out in little ol me. My
opinion of you still stands and in time many will come to realize it as
well. Its almost time for you to crawl back up under the bridge from whence
you came..tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.

Stalker~||AE||

Adam Kusnierz wrote in message ...

DaIai Lama

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Dec 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/10/98

to

>You are doing it again! ;) Lemme quote what you so skillfully cut out
>from my previous post:
>

>They _CAN_ do that, but it would have
>nothing to do with their playing style.

>This is what _I_ was talking about. Playing _style_. They (legits)
>cannot bring ill effects just by participating in the game. What you are
>talking about is their personal conduct, and I have never said legits
>are all round angels. By contrast (to make the same point again) both PK
>and cheaters DO affect legit games just by 'playing they enjoy to play'.

Agreed.

>Those guys spend more time accusing others of cheating (very often just
>'cos they have better equipment then the accusers) than playing the
>game. I think it's not pride of being legit that's important to them but
>they are there to be condesending to as many others as they can meet.

>Met such ppl twice, and this experience was to me much more unpleasant
>than being PKed, or meeting cheaters in my legit game.

I agree that its annoying when someone thinks Bnet is there personal ball of
wax to rule and adjudicate. Their attitude is silly and obnoxious.

>No, you missed the point. Suppose you have a very good friend, that is
>excellent in all regards (smashing personality), extreme fun to be with,
>but has just one problem. He likes playing poker, he cheats at it (and
>not very good at that). You never play him for money, perhaps for
>matchsticks, or monopoly money, but you let him win since it means sooo
>much to him. Whilst you may not enjoy that game of poker I doubt very
>much you would want to stop seeing him. On the other hand - would you
>consider playing him for real stakes?
>Same thing with D. You may see no fault with ppl's personality, but if
>you are legit, and KNOW their 'playing style' would spoil your enjoyment
>would you rather just chat with that guy, and play with others?

That's an interesting dilemma. I am glad you clarified that, becuase it went
right by me. Depends on the friendship. I suppose. The closer the friendship,
the more likely I would be to play anyways, though I might use a different
character. I am not too worried that my character is going to be "tainted",
but then again, I don't play purist either. I can see where this could
possibly be a slight problem for some, but if you are friends you should be
able to talk things out anyway.

>Not so, at least not legally. 'Attempted' or 'Intended' is enough to
>secure a sentence.

My, that was a bad example on my part. But, you got my point anyway.

> In which case, they are no longer PK's
>>they are duelists.

>Which are sub-group of PKers, but thats only semantics again.

Maybe a sub group, but one whose respect for others changes the equation (for
me at least).

>How about:
>
>4) They are both PKers, and this is ALL they do. They meet in a game and
>claim that they both are PKers and both use Godmode. Then they go down
>and try to kill one another for some 30 minutes without success. Are
>they (according to your definition) NOT PKers for that 30 minutes?

To me, they would still be Pkers, adn if a third party intentionally lured
player in , they would be accessories to the PKing. I'm not sure about three
strikes your out, premeditation or other PK legislation. I guess we'll have
to elect a body of BNet legislators, and pay taxes (in gold of course)

My definition was: ">That would depend on what you define as a PK? If we are

to assume that a PK
>is>>someone who kills any other unwilling partcipant:"

You are right, my definition would have to add "or someone who makes a direct
effort to kill any unwilling particiapant. -with participant defined as
cognizant entity :-) "

>>Some people play both legit and cheating.

>Or so they claim.

Well, I can't verify anyone, but Moe has some useful tools. They have their
limits as well, but I think personal honor (when someone has it) would
outwiegh someone's gaming tendancies. A person might cheat until the cows
come home, but if asked by a friend to play legit, they might very well drop
their .dats and play legit. As you can probably tell, I'm more of an
optimist of human nature, and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to
people.

>I must say this is a _revolutionary_ approach! ;) Are you saying now
>that cheating is possible ONLY in MULTIPLAYER computer games?

To a degree, yes. Its like the old saying, "If you have to ask". If someone
is working on a guide, and running a trainer so that they can see if they can
get a certain unique boss to drop a NON magical unique item than they aren't
cheating. If their significant other just left them and took the dog, and
they are just trying to get aggression out (and could care less what happens as
long as they are non stop killing, than they are not cheating. INtent here is
important. The only person they could be taking something from is themself.
Of course, if they brag about the item they found, or compare their characters
to others (and never mention they used a trainer to get their items) than they
are cheating.

If you
>edit your score in solitare,

Oh, if you are keeping score, and showing that score to someone, than that
would be cheating.

> or use 'cheat codes' in solo game of
>Warcraft that's not cheating? Why are those called 'cheat codes' than?

Having those codes prominent and available to both sides is a newer concept,
and the language is certainly not dynamic enough to have absorbed it yet.
When it does, it will probably be something silly. "godmode" is a good
example, as is "trainer" Neither of them specifically say "Cheat".

> Computer games are not about being fair and
>honest - they are about keeping interest, what translates into better
>sales.

If the .dat file inspires more interest, than perhaps itcan be considered
something the game designers should have done, but simply didn't have the time
or resources to do.

>But D's monsters have their 'unfair advantages'. They never hurt by
>their 'frendly fire', for example - something that is really
>disappointing, and would be the basis for nice strategy (get the
>monsters kill each other at the expense of not gained xp for kills).

It happens, but its RARE. Occasionally, I'll get a succubi to shoot some
dogs, or I'll see one monster taken out by another creature's lightning. I
think it's more of a bug in a particular game than anything else, and I have
only seen it with spell efffects. (But it is always fun to see).

>Of yes you can! Or are you saying that (for example) human player is
>unable to loose a game of chess to a computer? If so, please explain to
>Kasparov that his defeat did not take place.

A human player can lose to himself. Whether he can cheatt himself is rather
doubtful. A human can lose to the sun, IF he has set up a competition in his
mind.

>Just like everything else in 3d world. Should the coins have 2 sides
>that'd be cheating ;)

A toroid coin could have one side, and a mobius coin could have two sides.

>LOL
>What about driving? Would you consider lamp posts your opposition and
>other drivers potencial PKers? ;)

I've met some pretty tough curbs, and my tires have been Pk'd. (puncture
killed). I DO consider my hard drive and OS my opponent, as it's a constant
battle to keep my machine running. I will prevail, however, because I am
willing to run as many .dat files as it takes to make my machine submissive and
stop crashing.

>> How many skiers are killed by trees?
>
>Dunno. Never knew one that died in such crash. Few friends of mine broke
>legs and such - no fatalaties tho'

Fortunately its not a large number (don't know the specifics myself, though the
state of California lost one of their legislators (Sonny Bono) when he skiid
into a tree.
(not meaning to joke about that, just mentioning it)

>I am not going to rub it in either.

About being an Aoler? :-) You haven't been to Hell/Hell/Hell until you've
waited 2 hours and tried several hundred times (BY HAND) to connect to your
ISP, than gotten an extremely slow connection, only to get booted off again by
an automatic bot 15 minutes later.

Still, they have some decent content, and tons of chat rooms on just about
everything,but I am glad that they are not my dial up, or I'd go crazier than
Zhar the Mad.

>We would become a mob
>of uneducated morons, but we would then be truly >equal.

Would? He he, I think we are nearly there already in some places.

>Butch must really be
>tired of being killed so many times now, its a wonder this guy still
>comes out of his room when doors are open. Would be more fitting if he
>came out saying 'Here we go again').

LOL! I may use that one, if you don't mind.

>Creating snipping again? ;) Should this not read regardless what rules
>of _ironman, or table tennis_ are ppl that do not play D by Bizz rules
>cheat at D?

I thought you implied a connection, if you were saying that there is no
connection (which it looks to me now) than I misread you, and quoted wrongly.
I'll try to be more awake from now on.

>Then my observation has to be that you intentionally overlook nasty
>behaviour of vast, vast majority of cheaters

I don't like those types, and I try to avoid them, just like I try to avoid the
PKs.

>only to whitewash a handful
>of them (and we have nothing other that your word that they exist at
>all).

Ah, well in time you may meet some of them. I only saw my first Bald Eagle (in
the wild) this summer, and there were a few odd sea creatures that I didn't
even know existed until recently. I'm not trying to whitewash anyone, as
player can and will judge others for themselves anyway.

>Well... some legits are later told 'you never asked'.

That's rude IMO.

>Not trying to cast any shadows on your friends, but there are also
>cheats that are more discreet than most. It's possible to play several
>games with such and never realise they're cheating.

True, but then to some degree, if someone isn't that worried about it, than
they haven't really lost anything.

>On the other hand being an addict discredits you from testyfying even in
>drug related court case.

Hmm, not here. (although a witness can be removed, or not allowed to appear if
they can be shown to be unreliable for any of several reasons).

>I don't think pilot-alcoholic would be a reasonable source to approach
>for advice on the subject. He may not see anything wrong with drunk
>pilots, otherwise he would reconsider being one.

He may be able to tell you how he got by the drug tests, and perhaps even if
some job related condition hastened his descent into a dangerous habit.
Sometime you need to see things from the inside. Of course if he is an
alcoholic (and I don't have a lot of knowledge on this) he may be completley
unable to stop his drinking, though he knows it is horribly wrong. It has be
to tough getting out of that addiction, and I admire everyone who can make that
first step and keep going. (not saying that we all dont)

>Furthermore I think your request to ban word
>'cheat' from dictionaries, as it _may_ offend someone is unreasonable.

Well, no one has formally accepted my request :-)
Of course, if I sent it in with a nice large application fee, and used the old
"flood them with paperwork" trick it might get something rolling.

>Criticising
>>cheaters who do not affect YOUR game is the very same thing.

>By the same token are you allowed to criticise ONLY the PKers that
>showed up in your game and PKed you? You can't criticise PKers or cheats
>as an attitude of no consideration???

I should have worded that a little better, so that it was understood that
"cheaters who do not affect YOUR game" meant cheaters, who as a rule of general
practice do not affect your game or others games.

I was tired when I read and wrote that post, and it appears that I could have
used a little more attention to detail.

>Perhaps. Sadly, my busy schadule does not allow me to play as much as I
>would like.

Who does get to play as much as they'd like? GRRRR, some people have all the
luck.

>I am booked for the rest of this year, but I'll be on b.net
>from Fri midnight (GMT). Visit /ironman channel and we'll talk about it

I'll be heading out on the road for a long trip Sat morning, and will likely be
packing Fri, but if I get any time, I will look you up (and perhaps get my feet
wet in ironman)

Dalai Lama
Let sleeping Balrogs lie

SubSpace

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Dec 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/10/98

to

Hi Adam,

>>Cheaters are fine in my book, as long as they don;t screw up my
>>game. PK-ers, on the other hand, need a swift kick in the ass and
>>need to have their modems taken away by mommy and daddy.
>What about PKers that don't screw up your game either, then?

Good point. If a legit PK'er would come into my legit game and kill me for
my ear, res me afterwards, won't steal my gold and give me a heal or two I
couldn't care less... They won fair and square, in which case Pk'ing is part
of the game. However these kind of PK's are very rare, most don't come in
for an ear, but to annoy people.

I play a MUD too and PK'ing is highly accepted in MUDs. Probably because
cheating is (virtually) impossible. People even accept losing all of their
equipment, because you don't get to keep it. Now if I lost my eq in Diablo I
would be pissed so don't get me wrong, but I don't mind dying if there isn't
any permanent loss.

SubSpace

Joshua Kramer

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Dec 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/10/98

to

In article <74o1qh$gsn$4...@reader2.wxs.nl>, "SubSpace" <subs...@dds.nl> wrote:

> I play a MUD too and PK'ing is highly accepted in MUDs.

That's false. Pking might be accepted on *your* mud, but on the three I
used to be active in two had all pking banned and one had a white/black
pkilling allowed flag.

> Probably because
> cheating is (virtually) impossible.

And two of them had a real bug-exploit problem. One of the coders would write
in things as backdoors, and leak it.

Having players at the edit-character screen is bad.

> People even accept losing all of their
> equipment, because you don't get to keep it.

All three had inns/saves.

> Now if I lost my eq in Diablo I
> would be pissed so don't get me wrong, but I don't mind dying if there isn't
> any permanent loss.

I aggree with your point. I don't aggree RE: pkilling in muds, because
people have much greater attraction to mud characters than the three-
attributes of their diablo characters.

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/11/98

to

In article <19981210005851...@ng-fi1.aol.com>, DaIai Lama
<daia...@aol.com> writes
[...]

>That's an interesting dilemma. I am glad you clarified that, becuase it went
>right by me. Depends on the friendship. I suppose. The closer the friendship,
>the more likely I would be to play anyways, though I might use a different
>character. I am not too worried that my character is going to be "tainted",
>but then again, I don't play purist either. I can see where this could
>possibly be a slight problem for some, but if you are friends you should be
>able to talk things out anyway.

More about it in a sec.

[...]

>>How about:
>>
>>4) They are both PKers, and this is ALL they do. They meet in a game and
>>claim that they both are PKers and both use Godmode. Then they go down
>>and try to kill one another for some 30 minutes without success. Are
>>they (according to your definition) NOT PKers for that 30 minutes?
>
>To me, they would still be Pkers,

Just as cheating player in a game with another with the same cheats
enabled would still remain a cheat. Playing with other cheats does not
make one 'legit' ;)

I find that we agree mostly, and our 'argument' can be narrowed down to
one point, really.
There are 2 types of players on b.net - those that affect other players'
games in the way that those players don't want them to affect, and those
that don't. We both dislike the former group for their lack of
consideration. That group further divides into PKers, cheaters that
claim they're legit, and others like pains in the neck that are not on
b.net (and enter games) to play any style, but just to annoy those that
do want to play. It is, indeed, possible to belong to all 3 groups at
once (by being a cheating PK with personality disorder to boot), and
there are degrees of this lack of consideration for fellow players. Some
more acceptable, and esier overlooked than others, but _ALL_ antisocial.

The other group, cosiderate of others' wishes is what you refer to as
'honourable' (except you spell it differently ;)). In here you would see
great majority of legits and a _handful_ of cheats.
I have _no_ gripe with them whatsoever, but IMO this is still not enough
of a reason to split hairs over the definitions and search for way to
not see them as cheaters. Cheaters they _are_ and cheaters they'll stay
(unless they stop cheating).

> adn if a third party intentionally lured
>player in , they would be accessories to the PKing. I'm not sure about three
>strikes your out, premeditation or other PK legislation. I guess we'll have
>to elect a body of BNet legislators, and pay taxes (in gold of course)

Last thing we need! I hope it was a joke ;)
I think 'legit police' is only waiting to be recognised like that. What
they would then do would make Spanish Inquisition look insignificant ;)

[...]

>>>Some people play both legit and cheating.
>
>>Or so they claim.
>
>Well, I can't verify anyone, but Moe has some useful tools. They have their
>limits as well, but I think personal honor (when someone has it) would
>outwiegh someone's gaming tendancies. A person might cheat until the cows
>come home, but if asked by a friend to play legit, they might very well drop
>their .dats and play legit. As you can probably tell, I'm more of an
>optimist of human nature, and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to
>people.

So do I. Here we are coming back to an issue of 'friend cheating in
games'. Well, a non-issue, really. Friendship is much more than a game
could ever be, so the choice here is quite simple.
On the other hand not all ppl on b.net are your friends. Most of them
you don't know from Adam ;). If I ask anyone in my game if they are
using any cheats, and the answer is 'Yes', than that's a VERY good sign.
Shows some respect and honesty (unless they weren't sure what I wanted
to hear and flipped a coin). I _would_ trust such person to disable
_all_ cheats if asked to do so.
On the other hand a person may simply not have skills on par with
others, but wants to play with them, and all to have a good time, so
(s)he discreetly enables some cheats to cover his defficiences in skill.
His intentions may be all good, but conduct still questionable.

>>I must say this is a _revolutionary_ approach! ;) Are you saying now
>>that cheating is possible ONLY in MULTIPLAYER computer games?
>
>To a degree, yes. Its like the old saying, "If you have to ask". If someone
>is working on a guide, and running a trainer so that they can see if they can
>get a certain unique boss to drop a NON magical unique item

If you are wondering the answer is 'Yes'. I remember Leo dropping a res
stick (all white, of course :(), unless you mean D's 'unique'. In that
case - RTFM (Pedro's) _all_ unique items are magical ;)

>than they aren't
>cheating. If their significant other just left them and took the dog, and
>they are just trying to get aggression out (and could care less what happens as
>long as they are non stop killing, than they are not cheating. INtent here is
>important.

Not so. 'Assault with a deadly weapon' is still an assault, even if the
charge does not read 'Assault ... with intent to rob'.
I can remember my biology teacher saying 'you are only cheating
yourselves' to those that weren't sufficiently prepared for tests, and
had to 'even the odds'. All that time I was only being educated 'the way
I enjoyed being educated', and I never knew until now, that I wasn't
cheating at those tests ;)
(To my defence I can say that I never had any interest in biology, and
at the time I realised that that knowledge would have been useless to
me, so I decide to spend time otherwise than learning it).

[...]

>> or use 'cheat codes' in solo game of
>>Warcraft that's not cheating? Why are those called 'cheat codes' than?
>
>Having those codes prominent and available to both sides is a newer concept,
>and the language is certainly not dynamic enough to have absorbed it yet.
>When it does, it will probably be something silly. "godmode" is a good
>example, as is "trainer" Neither of them specifically say "Cheat".

Want a history lesson? They are called 'trainers' as in the earlier days
they were used to train players operating the game keys, whils not stuck
on lvl 1 all that time. After that you were meant (I think) to play the
game 'as designed'.

Use of common sense is advised here. Get you priorities right, and don't
be ashamed if it's your choice to cheat. You don't need to explain to
anyone why you cheat, or don't, but you owe others to leave their game
if you are asked to do so - even a public game.

>> Computer games are not about being fair and
>>honest - they are about keeping interest, what translates into better
>>sales.
>
>If the .dat file inspires more interest, than perhaps itcan be considered
>something the game designers should have done, but simply didn't have the time
>or resources to do.

Not sure about that one. There are some possible 'reverse engineering'
and copyright problems there.

>It happens, but its RARE. Occasionally, I'll get a succubi to shoot some
>dogs, or I'll see one monster taken out by another creature's lightning. I
>think it's more of a bug in a particular game than anything else, and I have
>only seen it with spell efffects. (But it is always fun to see).

I have not seen it at all (should be effective on those 300 skeleton
archers that 50% of the time accompany Leo - Leo should never have made
it alive out of their 'friendly fire', or at very least severly
wounded).

>>Of yes you can! Or are you saying that (for example) human player is
>>unable to loose a game of chess to a computer? If so, please explain to
>>Kasparov that his defeat did not take place.
>
>A human player can lose to himself. Whether he can cheatt himself is rather
>doubtful. A human can lose to the sun, IF he has set up a competition in his
>mind.

But you said .... 'all games include a looser and a winner' (presumably
you overlooked a draw ;)). If there is only ONE human player he has to
be a winner by definition? Even if he plays a computer _game_ and has
daylights beat out of him? ;)

>>Just like everything else in 3d world. Should the coins have 2 sides
>>that'd be cheating ;)
>
>A toroid coin could have one side, and a mobius coin could have two sides.

Never heard about 'toroid' (educate me, pls?). Would 'mobius' be as in
'Mobius strip' (after A F Mobius)? It has one side, and one edge.
Anyway, should have said 'dimention' where I said 'side'. One down for
you ;)

>>LOL
>>What about driving? Would you consider lamp posts your opposition and
>>other drivers potencial PKers? ;)
>
>I've met some pretty tough curbs, and my tires have been Pk'd. (puncture
>killed).

I had a bit of a gripe with European pavements (like you they have
driver's seat on the wrong side ;)). They were too high, and I dented my
door on one of them trying to get out :(

> I DO consider my hard drive and OS my opponent, as it's a constant
>battle to keep my machine running. I will prevail, however, because I am
>willing to run as many .dat files as it takes to make my machine submissive and
>stop crashing.

Ever thought your machine crashes 'cos you packed it full of '.dat'
files beyond breaking point? ;)

[...]

>>I am not going to rub it in either.
>
>About being an Aoler? :-)

I may do that yet ;) I meant about being strong and skillful ironman
talking down to weak (in spirit and D character) cheats ;)

>>We would become a mob
>>of uneducated morons, but we would then be truly >equal.
>
>
>Would? He he, I think we are nearly there already in some places.

You don't mean us 2, do you? ;)

>>Butch must really be
>>tired of being killed so many times now, its a wonder this guy still
>>comes out of his room when doors are open. Would be more fitting if he
>>came out saying 'Here we go again').
>
>LOL! I may use that one, if you don't mind.

Why should I mind? I sold your joke about Butch playing basketball with
Leo, and got plenty of good laughs ;)

>I thought you implied a connection, if you were saying that there is no
>connection (which it looks to me now) than I misread you, and quoted wrongly.
>I'll try to be more awake from now on.

No harm done. Prolly my fault (perhaps not just), my post have a
tendency to considerable increase in size.

>>Then my observation has to be that you intentionally overlook nasty
>>behaviour of vast, vast majority of cheaters
>
>I don't like those types, and I try to avoid them, just like I try to avoid the
>PKs.

In _essence_ they are the same group, and this is why I really don't
understand why we should automatically award respect to some of them,
but not the rest.

>>only to whitewash a handful
>>of them (and we have nothing other that your word that they exist at
>>all).
>
>Ah, well in time you may meet some of them. I only saw my first Bald Eagle (in
>the wild) this summer, and there were a few odd sea creatures that I didn't
>even know existed until recently.

I bet I wouldn't recognise more than you haven't! Cheating at biology
exams have paid off ;)

[...]

>>Not trying to cast any shadows on your friends, but there are also
>>cheats that are more discreet than most. It's possible to play several
>>games with such and never realise they're cheating.
>
>True, but then to some degree, if someone isn't that worried about it, than
>they haven't really lost anything.

I had a lvl 20 War once. I died somwhere, lost my best AC and weapons.
Went down to recover it, but died again. Then the game crashed. I was
given a 'legit' AC, and I didn't know it was a hack until 18 levels
later (it was indesc full plate). I could not keep that character, but I
spent a lot of time and care to build it from lvl10 to 28. I care. I
don't think anyone in D has done me more harm than that 'helpful'
character.
If you ask me I lost plenty, and my only guilt was lack of experience.

[...]

>He may be able to tell you how he got by the drug tests, and perhaps even if
>some job related condition hastened his descent into a dangerous habit.
>Sometime you need to see things from the inside.

He may offer this as means to lighten his sentence, but that would be no
consultation with possibility of allowing 'drink flying'.

[...]

>I'll be heading out on the road for a long trip Sat morning, and will likely be
>packing Fri, but if I get any time, I will look you up (and perhaps get my feet
>wet in ironman)

OK. Have a safe trip, and watch out for them pavements ;)
--
Adam Kusnierz

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/11/98

to

In article <74o1qh$gsn$4...@reader2.wxs.nl>, SubSpace <subs...@dds.nl>

writes
>Hi Adam,

Hello SubSpace,

>Good point. If a legit PK'er would come into my legit game and kill me for
>my ear, res me afterwards, won't steal my gold and give me a heal or two I
>couldn't care less...

Would you care if they not res you, and did take your gold? I'd rate
legit PKers same as 'honourable' players. They don't go against rules
(as written or as agreed), and they just as rare.

>They won fair and square, in which case Pk'ing is part
>of the game. However these kind of PK's are very rare, most don't come in
>for an ear, but to annoy people.

And it's quite amazing that they get _exactly_ what they want most of
the time. Then they go into channels, or this NG and annoy ppl as well!
How much longer before those upset by PKers will see it and stop giving
them the reason to exist?

[Agreed on MUDs]
--
Adam Kusnierz

Adam Kusnierz

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Dec 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/11/98

to

In article <jkramer1-101...@d160.roberts.swarthmore.edu>,
Joshua Kramer <jkra...@swarthmore.edu> writes

>In article <74o1qh$gsn$4...@reader2.wxs.nl>, "SubSpace" <subs...@dds.nl> wrote:
>
>
>> I play a MUD too and PK'ing is highly accepted in MUDs.
>
>That's false. Pking might be accepted on *your* mud, but on the three I
>used to be active in two had all pking banned and one had a white/black
>pkilling allowed flag.

Strange muds you have been playing. In all my mud experience killing
other human players was not only allowed, but encouraged. After all it
was the major source of gaining (and loosing) xp.

>> Probably because
>> cheating is (virtually) impossible.
>
>And two of them had a real bug-exploit problem. One of the coders would write
>in things as backdoors, and leak it.
>
>Having players at the edit-character screen is bad.

Muds are not state-of-the-art high security systems. No system is 100%
secure, but most (like MUDs) don't hold information sensitive, or
valuable enough to warrant implementation and maintenance of high
security. There is also interpretations of 'cheating'. Way back I played
text only MUD via 300/300 link. Anyone that connected at 2400/2400 (or
even at local terminals) would kill me even b4 I would have found out I
was attacked. Disadvantages were obvious, but can using 2400/2400 modem
be considered cheating?

[...]

>I aggree with your point. I don't aggree RE: pkilling in muds, because
>people have much greater attraction to mud characters than the three-
>attributes of their diablo characters.

They can have all the attraction they want. If there were no need pking
in muds such muds would never make it. D is the second I have seen where
pking is absolutely pointles. The other one was UO, but that game is
pointless all round

--
Adam Kusnierz

SubSpace

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Dec 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/12/98

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Hi Adam,

>Would you care if they not res you, and did take your gold? I'd rate
>legit PKers same as 'honourable' players. They don't go against
>rules (as written or as agreed), and they just as rare.

Probably not, but that depends on circumstances. My mood, their reaction,
etc. If they say thanks for the ear it's ok but most like to make foolish
remarks. Then again most cheat:)

SubSpace

SourCreamOnion

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Dec 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/17/98

to

How was your trip Dalai? My, I've been away for awhile! Did you meet new sea
creatures? Did you see any bovine friends? Please tell me about all the fun
you had.

>I'll be heading out on the road for a long trip Sat morning, and will
likely be
>packing Fri, but if I get any time, I will look you up (and perhaps get my
feet
>wet in ironman)
>
>Dalai Lama
>Let sleeping Balrogs lie

SourCreamOnion

DaIai Lama

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Dec 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM12/19/98

to

>How was your trip Dalai? My, I've been away for awhile! Did you meet new sea
>creatures?

Didn't pass by any oceans or lakes, so any undiscovered species have remained
that way.

>Did you see any bovine friends?

Hmm, I did see one reddish cow standing at the top of a hill between two
windmills deocrated wih Christmas lights. I gave her the universal bovine
gesture of friendship, but she must have been too far away to recognize it.

There was also a herd of about two dozen that were pacing back and forth
halfway up a slope (this was just before Bakersfield, CA.). As we got closer,
I could see that they didn't have their heads down, so they weren't grazing.
They might have been duping, but I didn't see any error messages appear.

Dalai Lama