Warning! Blizzard Has Made Sure All Your HC Chars Can Be Triggered
ro...@telus.net
butt cheeks.
I just lost my 85 HC ladder sorc to a trigger hack Blizzard has made
available so PK cheaters can murder all honorable players' HC chars.
The cheating filth, a necro (ABlackHole, account name KPMB-Avon,
USWest), fired a Bone Spirit, went to town and hostiled me, all in
less than 1 second. Character death appeared to precede the hostile
horn. Someone else in the game said that this particular subhuman
scum actually claims to have written the cheat himself.
Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
no PK cheats could ever be possible. They do not use any of them
because highly placed Blizzard employees are strongly in favor of PKs,
especially HC PKs, and are almost certainly among the most active HC
PKs. The scum who triggered me claimed to live in CA. IMO, if his
claim to have written the cheat is true, it is quite likely that he is
a Blizzard programmer.
-- Roy L
Rast
news:<40302557...@news.telus.net>:
> Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
> no PK cheats could ever be possible.
The most obvious would be a 60 second delay between declaring hostility and
your hostility taking effect -- but the automatic retaliatory hostility would
take effect instantly. All the other malfunctioning kludges put in to stop
HC PKing could be removed.
In SC the limit should be about 10 seconds.
--
"Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of
your death," answered Gandalf. "And only the heathen kings, under the
domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and
despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death." - Tolkien
tcells
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40302557...@news.telus.net...
it's a bit rough being done like that :(
I'd doubt very much that it was a blizz programmer though.
herman
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40302557...@news.telus.net...
> Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
> no PK cheats could ever be possible. They do not use any of them
> because highly placed Blizzard employees are strongly in favor of PKs,
> especially HC PKs, and are almost certainly among the most active HC
> PKs. The scum who triggered me claimed to live in CA. IMO, if his
> claim to have written the cheat is true, it is quite likely that he is
> a Blizzard programmer.
Yes, and he drives a black helicopter to work.
Sjoerd
The KPMB part of the account name reminded me of BMPK (Blue Moon PK)
which was/is a group of losers who spent a few years trying to screw up
Bnet. A quick search confirms that BMPK-members are using this
necro-trigger.
BMPK thread:
http://www.bmpk.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=209
Dii.net thread:
http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=137338
I don't believe it's a Blizzard employee. It's jsut some little kid who
thinks it's cool to cheat. What makes you (and many others) believe it's
Blizzard employees who're writing/using triggers? I see no reason what
so ever to believe that...
Sjoerd
Whitedog
I highly doubt it is a bliz employee. I'm sure the person who used the hack
would love people to believe that. Think about it, bliz is a decent sized
company, why would they tolerate that behavior? Their goal is to make as
much money as possible, pissing off customers is a bad way to do that. If
it is a bliz employee, most likely they will be unemployed in the near
future. It is extremely unlikely this is true, because if bliz was
harassing players online with hacks, they would be breaching their own
service agreement, and opening themselves up to harassment lawsuits.
SubSpace
>Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
>no PK cheats could ever be possible. They do not use any of them
>because highly placed Blizzard employees are strongly in favor of PKs,
>especially HC PKs, and are almost certainly among the most active HC
>PKs.
I very much doubt Blizzard is guilty of anything more than hiring plain lousy
programmers ;)
--
SubSpace
Mark
"Sjoerd" <sjoer...@ONhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40306b57$0$54714$ee9d...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> What makes you (and many others) believe it's
> Blizzard employees who're writing/using triggers? I see no reason what
> so ever to believe that...
Please don't ruin Roy's lovely conspiracy theories. He loves to believe that
Blizzard is out to get him. Rather than keeping an ear to the grapevine to
learn about the latest PK tricks, he'd rather blame Blizzard. I surely can't
be HIS fault. I mean, the guy had BMPK backwards in his name, who could have
ever figured out that it was a PK?
For the rest of us, yes, BM has written a new Trigger hack which they
released on Friday the 13th. So far I have only heard of it working with a
Necro and BS. So be very careful around Necro's now.
And the WP/instant hostile trick is still working, so watch for that one
too.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
HC East
Kokolums
waypoints after declaring hostility. I've had it happen a few times
to me in public hell Baal runs. Yesterday, I was at the WSK2 waypoint
and someone went hostile and immediately appeared at the waypoint
alongside of me. Fortunately, I always am extremely aware of player
actions when I'm standing at that waypoint in Baal run games, so I
instantly hit alt-F4 when he appeared. Never got touched.
ro...@telus.net
> wrote on Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:20:45 GMT in article
>news:<40302557...@news.telus.net>:
>> Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
>> no PK cheats could ever be possible.
>
>The most obvious would be a 60 second delay between declaring hostility and
>your hostility taking effect
Even 5 seconds would be ample. But Blizzard has decided that it wants
cheaters to be able to murder any HC character at any time, with no
warning at all. Blizzard has made a deliberate, conscious decision
that the convenience of vicious, evil cheaters who want to ruin other
players' enjoyment of the game has priority over all other
considerations whatsoever, including their own profitability.
>-- but the automatic retaliatory hostility would
>take effect instantly. All the other malfunctioning kludges put in to stop
>HC PKing could be removed.
Right. There are any number of ways to do it -- if Blizzard was not
devoted to helping cheaters (few of whom probably paid for the game
-- they're cheaters, after all) ruin the gqame for honorable players.
>In SC the limit should be about 10 seconds.
PKs are not a significant issue in SC, because they know they can't
really hurt you. So very few people bother to PK in SC. Only HC
attracts the truly evil individuals whose enjoyment comes from
inflicting suffering on others. The desire to destroy what others
have built is the infallible mark of a subhuman, criminal mentality,
and HC PKs are essentially evil, vicious, subhuman criminals.
-- Roy L
Mark
"Kokolums" <egop...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:94fddab.04021...@posting.google.com...
> I can also confirm there is a hack to override the time delay to use
> waypoints after declaring hostility.
There is no hack for this, it's just a loophole in the game. Anyone can do
it if you know how (don't ask, I won't share the info).
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>I'd doubt very much that it was a blizz programmer though.
There is no other plausible explanation for how Blizard consistently
makes PK cheats available to subhuman scum.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
If conspiracy kooks did not exist, conspirators would have to invent
them.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>The KPMB part of the account name reminded me of BMPK (Blue Moon PK)
>which was/is a group of losers who spent a few years trying to screw up
>Bnet. A quick search confirms that BMPK-members are using this
>necro-trigger.
>BMPK thread:
>http://www.bmpk.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=209
>Dii.net thread:
>http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=137338
BMPK never occurred to me. All I thought of when I saw the account
name was the big accounting firm :/.
>I don't believe it's a Blizzard employee. It's jsut some little kid who
>thinks it's cool to cheat.
It wasn't a little kid, I can assure you. His messages were those of
an adult.
>What makes you (and many others) believe it's
>Blizzard employees who're writing/using triggers? I see no reason what
>so ever to believe that...
The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
put a stop to PK cheats once and for all. Blizzard does not do that.
Therefore, someone -- and probably a number of them -- at Blizzard is
strongly supportive of and probably involved in PK cheating.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
<jro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I highly doubt it is a bliz employee. I'm sure the person who used the hack
>would love people to believe that. Think about it, bliz is a decent sized
>company, why would they tolerate that behavior?
I don't know why. It is a mystery to me. But there is absolutely no
doubt that they _do_ tolerate it, because they have had _many_
opportunities to put a permanent stop to all PK cheats, and it would
be trivially easy for them to do so, and they have not done so.
>Their goal is to make as
>much money as possible, pissing off customers is a bad way to do that.
It is clear that making as much money as possible is not the goal of
_everyone_ at Blizzard. For somebody in a position of power at the
company, the convenience of vicious, cheating punks has unconditional
priority over the company's bottom line.
In any case, Blizzard has lost at least one sale by enabling PK
cheats: I was going to buy another copy of the game to put on another
machine, but will not do so until I am sure all PK cheating has been
permanently disabled.
>If
>it is a bliz employee, most likely they will be unemployed in the near
>future.
No. Blizzard has shown in the past that they have no interest in
stopping PK cheats. Once in a while they will disable one, but they
are always careful not to make them altogether impossible, which would
certainly be easy to do.
>It is extremely unlikely this is true, because if bliz was
>harassing players online with hacks, they would be breaching their own
>service agreement, and opening themselves up to harassment lawsuits.
I'm not sure that is true. Blizzard reserves the right to do pretty
much as they damn please with Bnet.
-- Roy L
herman
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40311316...@news.telus.net...
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
incompetence.
Mark
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40311382...@news.telus.net...
> The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
> put a stop to PK cheats once and for all. Blizzard does not do that.
> Therefore, someone -- and probably a number of them -- at Blizzard is
> strongly supportive of and probably involved in PK cheating.
We've all been over the PK issue many times before. Blizzards implementation
of it in particular. This board had a particularly heated thread(s) right
before the game was released. And as far as I recall, no Blizzard employee
has posted here since. This group is pretty much in the extremely anti-PK
side of the issue. But like Blizzard said way back then, it was an economic
decision. They figured that we'd put up with the Griefers, and they could
make money from them. They wanted the biggest market possible. And, well, I
have to admit, they were right. They've sold an awfully lot of DII/LoD
games. As much as I detest the PK weenies, I still play the game. And I
still risk public games. I'm a gamer, and LoD has enough good in it that I
learn to avoid the parts I don't like. Blizzards marketing department had me
pegged. As much as I don't like it, as a company Blizzard was right.
As far as the cheaters go, it's just a matter of priorities and resources.
At this point DII/LoD is low priority and very limited resources. And
they're under constant assault by hackers of all sorts. Most economically
driven, the dupers and Ebay sellers. Their hacks affect all the realms, so
those are eventually fixed. But some of the hackers are just the vandals.
And unfortunately HC is where they cause the most havoc. And since HC is
such a small part of the game, it's low priority on a low priority project.
Blizzard has no appreciation of the HC community. That's obvious from them
leaving the last trigger script open for almost a year. Once again, I don't
like it, but I still play the game.
PKs and/or cheaters are a fact of life on B-net. Either learn to live with
'em, or learn to like watching the '... deeds ...' screen. That's HC. Death
comes when ever you get complacent/careless. BM is more prevalent on East,
but the name should have been a dead give away. At the very least, playing a
L85 in a pubbie, without a friend to loot; you should be ultra careful. I
don't get too close to ANY one. And a Necro using BS in a hell party should
have set off your spider sense. In my experience, BS in a large hell game
isn't too impressive. Especially with your Sorc making lots of bodies for
him to explode. And if he wasn't showing BS, what was he showing? By Hell,
high level characters should be showing some big guns. A high level
character lurking around not doing much is almost always trouble (PK or item
grabber). I'm sorry to hear that a vandal deleted your high level character,
you have my condolences. But you've been PK'd before, I suggest learning
from the experience. Instead of, again, blaming a vast Blizzard conspiracy.
AFAIK, Blessed Hammer and Bone Spirit do not disappear when you return to
town. So those are the new Hydra/Guided Arrow TPPK tricks. Like before, both
can be done longhand, without a script. But a hack is now available that
automates the process, for those without the skill.
Anadriel
then."
>>I don't believe it's a Blizzard employee. It's jsut some little kid who
>>thinks it's cool to cheat.
>
>It wasn't a little kid, I can assure you. His messages were those of
>an adult.
>
I am a little kid, and I talk like and adult...
-
Andy
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for they are
quick to anger and you taste good with ketchup.
Marshall
"Anadriel" <Anadrie...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:2ec230l58j22dco2k...@4ax.com...
> "Who goes there?" I asked, "Oh, tis only ro...@telus.net. Come on in
> then."
> >>I don't believe it's a Blizzard employee. It's jsut some little kid who
> >>thinks it's cool to cheat.
> >
> >It wasn't a little kid, I can assure you. His messages were those of
> >an adult.
> >
>
> I am a little kid, and I talk like and adult...
"talk like and adult"... ::giggles uncontrollably:: ;-P
-Marshall
Stephen R. Marsh
infliction of emotional distress, then levy on their domain name and replace it
with something of a message to them.
Not like the domain owner is going to come to where you live to defend the
suit.
And, they reached out and touched you were you were, so jurisdiction is
generally applicable -- the tort damages happened to you in your home.
Of course this is just commentary, not legal advice, your mileage may vary.
Stephen
http://adrr.com/hero/diablo.htm
http://adrr.com/story/
Rast
news:<4031101a...@news.telus.net>:
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:51:14 -0500, Rast <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > wrote on Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:20:45 GMT in article
> >news:<40302557...@news.telus.net>:
> >> Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
> >> no PK cheats could ever be possible.
> >
> >The most obvious would be a 60 second delay between declaring hostility and
> >your hostility taking effect
>
> Even 5 seconds would be ample.
Well, I'm in favor of removing the "can only hostile in town" restriction,
and the WP and TP restrictions.
> >In SC the limit should be about 10 seconds.
>
> PKs are not a significant issue in SC, because they know they can't
> really hurt you.
Yes, but it would be annoying to have someone hostile you, kill you, take
your gold, and leave instantly. 10 seconds should be enough warning.
Rast
news:<0iaYb.7112$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>:
> We've all been over the PK issue many times before. Blizzards implementation
> of it in particular. This board had a particularly heated thread(s) right
> before the game was released. And as far as I recall, no Blizzard employee
> has posted here since.
As I recall it, the extremists on this group, who did not and probably still
do not understand the legitimate non-dueling uses for hostility, bashed the
Blizzard rep savagely and unfairly over a game which had not been released
yet and which they knew almost nothing about. I don't blame Blizzard for
writing off the opinions of this part of the Diablo community as worthless,
after that.
Of course, Blizzard managed to screw it up anyway. As things stand now,
hostility is useless in SC except for dueling, yet in HC a player with a hack
can kill your character permanently, instantly, and without warning to you or
risk to himself.
john graesser
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031101a...@news.telus.net...
But isn't it better that they take out their aggression in the game instead
of torturing small animals or becoming a serial killer?
Whitedog
> >it is a bliz employee, most likely they will be unemployed in the near
> >future.
>
> No. Blizzard has shown in the past that they have no interest in
> stopping PK cheats. Once in a while they will disable one, but they
> are always careful not to make them altogether impossible, which would
> certainly be easy to do.
>
> >It is extremely unlikely this is true, because if bliz was
> >harassing players online with hacks, they would be breaching their own
> >service agreement, and opening themselves up to harassment lawsuits.
>
> I'm not sure that is true. Blizzard reserves the right to do pretty
> much as they damn please with Bnet.
>
> -- Roy L
The liability thing is true. I don't know how far you would get if you
actually tried to take them to court, maybe if there is a lawyer on the
newsgroup they can explain it. My understanding is, as long as you're over
18, the user agreement is a contract that neither side can break. Blizzard
has the right to change it at any time, but they have to notify you before
the changes go into affect. Either way, it would be very bad publicity if
it got out that Bliz was supporting hackers. Not to mention, they could be
criminally liable. There are many hacks that actually access information on
the user's computers. This is a crime, trust, any company would not walk
anywhere near this line. A scandal like that could put any software company
out of business.
One thing that you have to remember is that D2 is an old game. Developing
ways to stop cheats costs money. Bliz isn't going to dump any significant
resources into a games that's a few years old. Especially since they dumped
Bliz North, and all the rumors that they are going to be bought out.
Hackers are always going to find ways to get around anything Bliz does to
stop them. It is very possible that the glitch they are using for this
hacks would require an immense amount of time to fix. D2 is a complicated
piece of software, closing one door could easily open another. If they make
significant changes to the game, then they have to do testing, which
requires them to invest money, which they are not going to do. They already
said 1.10 is the last patch, and that tells me that the end of D2 is on the
horizon. If D2 does get bought out, I would not be surprised if bnet
support for D1 stopped immediately, and support for D2 a year or two down
the road.
They have done some stuff to stop Pking, and I agree its not enough. PKing
is the biggest reason I don't play hc. The easiest way to avoid it, if you
really want to play hc, is find some friends and only play in pw games with
player limits.
Another possibility is that Bliz hasn't figured out a way to detect the
hacks that you fell victim too. It has taken them forever in the past to
detect other hacks.
My last point is that it is a pretty safe assumption to say that the staff
they have assigned to D2 is ridiculously small at best. This is assuming
they have anyone assigned to it at all. It would not surprise me if the
programmers only bothered with it if there was a major problem, and I doubt
they see any of the current hacks as a major problem. I believe a hack
would have to just about bring down the realm for bliz to take an overly
active interest.
I feel for you, losing a character like that is tough. I'm sure you want to
hunt down the sob and knee cap him. Unfortunately you can't. One possible
course of action though, if you do have a vague clue who wrote the cheat,
and I know that's a very big if, is to try to find out what else they've
written. If this person is known for writing malicious code, it wouldn't be
that hard to get the police involved, as long as you could prove
quantifiable damage. For example, if you purchased any d2 items online, and
they were lost as a result of a hack, you have property damage that can be
reported to the police. The biggest bonus yet is that if the ass lives out
of state, its a federal offense. Most hackers don't stop at bnet, its just
a matter of finding something they did that the police care about.
Whitedog
"Rast" <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a9b1a5eb...@216.168.3.44...
> Mark wrote on Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:07:08 GMT in article
> news:<0iaYb.7112$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>:
>
> > We've all been over the PK issue many times before. Blizzards
implementation
> > of it in particular. This board had a particularly heated thread(s)
right
> > before the game was released. And as far as I recall, no Blizzard
employee
> > has posted here since.
>
> As I recall it, the extremists on this group, who did not and probably
still
> do not understand the legitimate non-dueling uses for hostility, bashed
the
> Blizzard rep savagely and unfairly over a game which had not been released
> yet and which they knew almost nothing about. I don't blame Blizzard for
> writing off the opinions of this part of the Diablo community as
worthless,
> after that.
>
>
> Of course, Blizzard managed to screw it up anyway. As things stand now,
> hostility is useless in SC except for dueling, yet in HC a player with a
hack
> can kill your character permanently, instantly, and without warning to you
or
> risk to himself.
>
What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
Whitedog
"john graesser" <grae...@tca.net> wrote in message
news:1032ojg...@corp.supernews.com...
Personally, I believe if we just shot them all, the world would be a better
place. These 3rd world countries might have something going with these late
night abductions.
Whitedog
lives in the US or Canada. If they live outside North America, you'll never
be able to touch them, especially if they live in Russia.
0tarin
> "Rast" <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a9b1a5eb...@216.168.3.44...
>
> > Blizzard rep savagely and unfairly over a game which had not been released
> > yet and which they knew almost nothing about. I don't blame Blizzard for
> > writing off the opinions of this part of the Diablo community as
> worthless,
> > after that.
> >
> >
> > Of course, Blizzard managed to screw it up anyway. As things stand now,
> > hostility is useless in SC except for dueling, yet in HC a player with a
> hack
> > can kill your character permanently, instantly, and without warning to you
> or
> > risk to himself.
> >
>
> What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
Being irritating to friendly folks?
--
0tarin
Marshall
It would be best of all for them all to be euthenized at birth, but I haven't found
that option in the LoD/bnet configurations, yet...
-Marshall
Shiflet
"Whitedog" <jro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:p4eYb.34047$hR.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
Getting rid of leechers/item grabbers and people that just run around
spamming things like "free itamz".
Polarhound
you told them their mommas wear combat boots, you should of expected it.
0tarin
Note that the "mute" function works just fine on those latter ones. As
for the former, you could always lead some enemies to them as an easy
fix.
--
0tarin
Shiflet
"0tarin" <0ta...@sluggy.net> wrote in message
news:1g99pad.pabsbh8l9cg0N%0ta...@sluggy.net...
> Note that the "mute" function works just fine on those latter ones.
True.
> As for the former, you could always lead some enemies to them as an easy
> fix.
But that puts YOU at risk.
> --
> 0tarin
Rast
news:<p4eYb.34047$hR.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
> What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
When you and someone you dislike are in the same area and you prefer to
remove him from the area rather than remove yourself from that game.
This is most often needed when you're killing a boss and someone shows up to
take the drop. Sadly, the need to TP to town then run all the way back to
your previous location makes hostility as implemented kinda useless.
In the 3 years I've been playing the game on bnet, the number of quest games
I've been in that have been disrupted by PKs can be counted on one hand. (I
play SC, and my comments are for SC.)
The number of times I've wished I could instantly go mano-a-mano with a much
weaker character who has invaded my area to steal my drops -- hundreds.
Darktyger
>The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
>put a stop to PK cheats once and for all.
No, it wouldn't. No software is unhackable, and online game hackers
are some of the most determined out there. Hundreds of thousands of
scumbags can and will find a way to crack any safety they put in. The
only cheatproof game is one without players. Period.
--
Dark Tyger, keeper of the Nerf Railgun(tm)
All hail the Thief....
LineNoise
alt.games.diablo.
>On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:05:17 GMT, ro...@telus.net wrote:
>
>>The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
>>put a stop to PK cheats once and for all.
>
>No, it wouldn't. No software is unhackable, and online game hackers
>are some of the most determined out there. Hundreds of thousands of
>scumbags can and will find a way to crack any safety they put in. The
>only cheatproof game is one without players. Period.
'scuse me? Unless somebody is going to go around hacking the b.net
servers, I can give you an absolutely foolproof way to stop every single PK
hack you (or any other player) can dream up. It's really simple: I don't
take damage from other players unless I agree that I want to take damage
from other players.
Has absolutely *zero* effect on legit PvP (dueling) and shuts down PK'ers
cold. Because it's on *my* side of the game, the PK'er can't do jack about
it, unless he's going to hack my system or b.net's.
Of course, the preceeding paragraphs assume that somebody at b.net can A)
code worth a damn, and B) gives a damn. AFAICT, both statements are false.
LineNoise
--
ICQ# 68214833
Matriarch Allysyn, level 90 Amazon, USWest Ladder
Matriarch Petra_LN, Level 88 Sorceress, USWest Ladder
Martiarch Jasmine_LN, Level 84 Sorceress, USWest Ladder
Patriarch GinzuMan, Level 82 Paladin, USWest Ladder
Champion Canis-Minor, Level 72 Druid, USWest Ladder
.
Insane: When you're nuts and it bothers you. (Crazy is when you're nuts
and you like it).
Whitedog
> Whitedog wrote on Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:25:41 GMT in article
> news:<p4eYb.34047$hR.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>
> > What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
>
> When you and someone you dislike are in the same area and you prefer to
> remove him from the area rather than remove yourself from that game.
>
> This is most often needed when you're killing a boss and someone shows up
to
> take the drop. Sadly, the need to TP to town then run all the way back to
> your previous location makes hostility as implemented kinda useless.
>
> In the 3 years I've been playing the game on bnet, the number of quest
games
> I've been in that have been disrupted by PKs can be counted on one hand.
(I
> play SC, and my comments are for SC.)
>
> The number of times I've wished I could instantly go mano-a-mano with a
much
> weaker character who has invaded my area to steal my drops -- hundreds.
The much easier, more sensible solution to this, is never invite characters
that don't belong in an area to your party. That way they can't get to the
boss to begin with. If your problem is solely with weaker characters, they
sure as hell won't be able to walk to the boss.
I really don't see the legitimacy with your argument. I would much rather
put up with the occasional leecher than have to deal with PKer's. Maybe I
play more than you or you use mainly private games, but I run into a PKer at
least once a week, if not several times a week.
I think there are loads of solutions that bliz could have implemented other
than weakened rules on hostility to solve your problem. The one I think
would work best is giving the person that creates a game, whether its pw or
not, the ability to kick/ban people from the game. Takes care of the whole
problem with no risk of PKers.
I'm sure there are more PKers in hc than sc, and losing a character like
that is unfair, and just plain pointless. They will never take hostility
out of the game, but wish they would make it that both players had to
declare hostility or that both player have to be in town. I think they
really do ruin the hc experience by forcing you into private games.
Whitedog
"LineNoise" <line...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:fjh3305mqc7n3d16u...@4ax.com...
> "Bother!", said Pooh, as he read Darktyger's latest post to
> alt.games.diablo.
>
> >On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:05:17 GMT, ro...@telus.net wrote:
> >
> >>The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
> >>put a stop to PK cheats once and for all.
> >
> >No, it wouldn't. No software is unhackable, and online game hackers
> >are some of the most determined out there. Hundreds of thousands of
> >scumbags can and will find a way to crack any safety they put in. The
> >only cheatproof game is one without players. Period.
>
> 'scuse me? Unless somebody is going to go around hacking the b.net
> servers, I can give you an absolutely foolproof way to stop every single
PK
> hack you (or any other player) can dream up. It's really simple: I don't
> take damage from other players unless I agree that I want to take damage
> from other players.
>
> Has absolutely *zero* effect on legit PvP (dueling) and shuts down PK'ers
> cold. Because it's on *my* side of the game, the PK'er can't do jack
about
> it, unless he's going to hack my system or b.net's.
>
> Of course, the preceeding paragraphs assume that somebody at b.net can A)
> code worth a damn, and B) gives a damn. AFAICT, both statements are
false.
>
> LineNoise
If bliz did something like that, I would guess it would only take a month or
two until the hackers found a way around it. All they would have to do is
find a way around the command on bnet. There are plenty of hacks out there
now that screw with the realm itself.
Shiflet
> servers, I can give you an absolutely foolproof way to stop every single
PK
> hack you (or any other player) can dream up. It's really simple: I don't
> take damage from other players unless I agree that I want to take damage
> from other players.
I can dream up one that can't stop, 2 in fact-One would be a hack that makes
the server THINK you've agreed to take damage from other players, the other
is one that makes the server think the PKer is not a player.
> LineNoise
ro...@telus.net
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40311382...@news.telus.net...
>> The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
>> put a stop to PK cheats once and for all. Blizzard does not do that.
>> Therefore, someone -- and probably a number of them -- at Blizzard is
>> strongly supportive of and probably involved in PK cheating.
>
>We've all been over the PK issue many times before. Blizzards implementation
>of it in particular. This board had a particularly heated thread(s) right
>before the game was released. And as far as I recall, no Blizzard employee
>has posted here since.
Because their stupidity and the indefensibility of their policy was
made unavoidably evident to everyone here.
>This group is pretty much in the extremely anti-PK
>side of the issue.
That is certainly false. I play in lots of public games, and about
90% of the players agree that PKs are subhuman filth, and _by_far_ the
very worst part of the game.
>But like Blizzard said way back then, it was an economic
>decision.
It wasn't. It was a sociopathic decision. IMO there is no doubt that
D2 would have sold more copies -- it would certainly have been a far
better game -- if PK cheats had been prevented from the outset.
>They figured that we'd put up with the Griefers, and they could
>make money from them.
Maybe by selling cheats and bugged gear to them, but certainly not by
selling more copies of the game to them. Griefers and PKs are
cheaters by nature. They won't even buy the game legally if they can
possibly find a way to hack CD keys, or use some other way to avoid
paying for it. Catering to a fundamentally criminal mentality is
almost never a wise business decision.
>They wanted the biggest market possible. And, well, I
>have to admit, they were right. They've sold an awfully lot of DII/LoD
>games.
Sure. But that's _despite_ their stupidity in catering to PK
cheaters, not because of it. They would have sold more copies if PKs
were not making Bnet such a cesspool.
The plain fact is, anyone who just wants to play D@ in SP or TCP/IP
games doesn't have to buy the game. There are lots of pirate versions
around. You only have to buy it if you want to play on the realms.
But if griefers scare people off the realms -- and there is little
doubt that they do -- those people have that much less motive to buy
the game.
>As much as I detest the PK weenies, I still play the game. And I
>still risk public games. I'm a gamer, and LoD has enough good in it that I
>learn to avoid the parts I don't like.
And _many_ people have not bought the game because one of the parts
they didn't like was being cheated by subhuman filth.
>Blizzards marketing department had me
>pegged. As much as I don't like it, as a company Blizzard was right.
Nonsense. That's like saying Coke is right to put a mouse in every
millionth bottle, because people still buy the stuff.
>As far as the cheaters go, it's just a matter of priorities and resources.
>At this point DII/LoD is low priority and very limited resources.
Which is _really_stupid_ considering it is probably still outselling
all their other games combined.
>And
>they're under constant assault by hackers of all sorts. Most economically
>driven, the dupers and Ebay sellers. Their hacks affect all the realms, so
>those are eventually fixed. But some of the hackers are just the vandals.
>And unfortunately HC is where they cause the most havoc. And since HC is
>such a small part of the game, it's low priority on a low priority project.
??? HC is such a small part of the game because
_people_hate_being_cheated_out_of_their_chars_and_items_by_PK_filth_,
and stay away from HC on that account. PK cheaters are the only thing
that would stop me from playing HC, and nothing else is second.
>Blizzard has no appreciation of the HC community. That's obvious from them
>leaving the last trigger script open for almost a year. Once again, I don't
>like it, but I still play the game.
Just as people still drink Coke despite the occasional mouse.
>PKs and/or cheaters are a fact of life on B-net. Either learn to live with
>'em, or learn to like watching the '... deeds ...' screen. That's HC. Death
>comes when ever you get complacent/careless.
Or even if you are not...
>BM is more prevalent on East,
>but the name should have been a dead give away. At the very least, playing a
>L85 in a pubbie, without a friend to loot; you should be ultra careful.
I'd been soloing the WSK for a while, then a druid entered, I partied,
then a whole bunch of people entered and partied. And I hadn't heard
of the BS cheat, as it was only released the day before.
>I don't get too close to ANY one. And a Necro using BS in a hell party should
>have set off your spider sense.
He joined, he partied, he arrived, he killed me, all in about 5
seconds.
>In my experience, BS in a large hell game
>isn't too impressive. Especially with your Sorc making lots of bodies for
>him to explode.
I was fighting with the druid, and didn't even see the necro arrive on
the level before he got me.
>And if he wasn't showing BS, what was he showing? By Hell,
>high level characters should be showing some big guns. A high level
>character lurking around not doing much is almost always trouble (PK or item
>grabber).
He wasn't in the game long enough to lurk. Just long enough to party,
take a tp, and kill me.
>I'm sorry to hear that a vandal deleted your high level character,
>you have my condolences. But you've been PK'd before, I suggest learning
>from the experience.
What I have learned from being PKed by at least half a dozen different
cheats is that Blizzard _wants_ vandals to make cheats, and the only
way not to be killed by them is to play only in passworded games, and
only with people you know. Bye-bye Bnet.
>Instead of, again, blaming a vast Blizzard conspiracy.
?? "Conspiracy"? It's their stated policy.
>AFAIK, Blessed Hammer and Bone Spirit do not disappear when you return to
>town. So those are the new Hydra/Guided Arrow TPPK tricks. Like before, both
>can be done longhand, without a script. But a hack is now available that
>automates the process, for those without the skill.
Right. Blizzard made a deliberate, conscious decision to make these
cheats available for the convenience of PK filth. Like I said.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>"Who goes there?" I asked, "Oh, tis only ro...@telus.net. Come on in
>then."
>>>I don't believe it's a Blizzard employee. It's jsut some little kid who
>>>thinks it's cool to cheat.
>>
>>It wasn't a little kid, I can assure you. His messages were those of
>>an adult.
>
>I am a little kid, and I talk like and adult...
No, you don't. You are either a little kid, or an adult trying to
talk like one.
-- Roy L
David Carson
> What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
Throwing Shock Webs at your friends' feet to exploit the NextDelay bug
and make them immune to various monster attacks? :-)
Cheers!
David...
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
_substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
_in_addition_to_ murdering HC chars. And I don't know but what Pking
doesn't function as a rehearsal for real crimes.
-- Roy L
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031c460...@news.telus.net...
> That is certainly false. I play in lots of public games, and about
> 90% of the players agree that PKs are subhuman filth, and _by_far_ the
> very worst part of the game.
I play in lots of public games too, and most people I talk to consider
Gloams and Iron Maiden casting O. Knights far worse than PKers. Seriously, I
suspect were there to be a poll conducted, I suspect gloams, OKs, rarity of
certain runes/items, *questing* and cheap dueling skills like blessed hammer
would all come in as being far worse than PKers.
> Maybe by selling cheats and bugged gear to them, but certainly not by
> selling more copies of the game to them. Griefers and PKs are
> cheaters by nature. They won't even buy the game legally if they can
> possibly find a way to hack CD keys, or use some other way to avoid
> paying for it.
My god, you are smart sometimes, but here, you're being foolish. Lots of
people BUY games but still cheat during them. I've done it myself before.
Not in D2, but in other games(including D1). Yet I bought them all.
> Sure. But that's _despite_ their stupidity in catering to PK
> cheaters, not because of it. They would have sold more copies if PKs
> were not making Bnet such a cesspool.
IMHO, that's complete bullshit. Can you find me a single person, anywhere,
who says they would buy D2, if only it weren't for PKers? Seriously, find me
ONE SINGLE PERSON and even that will be quite impressive.
> And _many_ people have not bought the game because one of the parts
> they didn't like was being cheated by subhuman filth.
Many? Name one?
> ??? HC is such a small part of the game because
> _people_hate_being_cheated_out_of_their_chars_and_items_by_PK_filth_,
Or they don't like getting lagged and dying from something they never see,
or cause they have slow comps that they don't feel run fast enough to take a
chance on HK, or cause they don't want to lose their characters EVER(to
PKers, OR anything else) no matter what, or cause they like to duel and
don't want to rebuild their characters every single time they lose a fight,
or...get the picture?
> I'd been soloing the WSK for a while, then a druid entered, I partied,
> then a whole bunch of people entered and partied. And I hadn't heard
> of the BS cheat, as it was only released the day before.
I hadn't heard of the BS cheat either, but I'd have the sense to stay away
from or at least keep a very close eye on any character with "PK" in their
name, too.
> I was fighting with the druid, and didn't even see the necro arrive on
> the level before he got me.
Doesn't matter anyways, a necro using BS in quest games IS NOT RARE. It's
used by lots of necros, either to start a chain of corpses for minions or
CE, or to pick off specific targets that aren't near a corpse, or just cause
he's a dedicated bone skill necro, possibly one being leveled to used as a
duelist. Certainly nothing that should have raised any suspicions on it's
own.
> Right. Blizzard made a deliberate, conscious decision to make these
> cheats available for the convenience of PK filth. Like I said.
Gee, or maybe it just didn't cross their mind.
> -- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
<polar...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Oh yes, they are doing this just to screw with you personally.
??? What an idiot. They don't know or care about me personally.
That is the point. It's like selling weapons to terrorists. The
seller doesn't know or care whom his customers are going to kill.
-- Roy L
LineNoise
alt.games.diablo.
>On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:12:30 GMT, Anadriel <Anadrie...@shaw.ca>
And you're either an ass, or a normal person trying very hard to behave
like one. So?
LineNoise
--
ICQ# 68214833
Matriarch Allysyn, level 90 Amazon, USWest Ladder
Matriarch Petra_LN, Level 88 Sorceress, USWest Ladder
Martiarch Jasmine_LN, Level 84 Sorceress, USWest Ladder
Patriarch GinzuMan, Level 82 Paladin, USWest Ladder
Champion Canis-Minor, Level 72 Druid, USWest Ladder
.
Budget: Something we go without to stay within.
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031ce8a...@news.telus.net...
> True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
> _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
> welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
Uhh not, not more likely. I kill other people in Unreal Tournament, that
doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels in
D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood, it
doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
> And I don't know but what Pking doesn't function as a rehearsal for real
crimes.
WTF? You know a lot of people who can run around casting bone spirits,
fireballs, and blessed hammers do ya? And they all have access to waypoints
and town portals, too?
> -- Roy L
tcells
> alt.games.diablo.
>
> >On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:05:17 GMT, ro...@telus.net wrote:
> >
> >>The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
> >>put a stop to PK cheats once and for all.
> >
> >No, it wouldn't. No software is unhackable, and online game hackers
> >are some of the most determined out there. Hundreds of thousands of
> >scumbags can and will find a way to crack any safety they put in. The
> >only cheatproof game is one without players. Period.
>
> 'scuse me? Unless somebody is going to go around hacking the b.net
> servers, I can give you an absolutely foolproof way to stop every single
PK
> hack you (or any other player) can dream up. It's really simple: I don't
> take damage from other players unless I agree that I want to take damage
> from other players.
>
> Has absolutely *zero* effect on legit PvP (dueling) and shuts down PK'ers
> cold. Because it's on *my* side of the game, the PK'er can't do jack
about
> it, unless he's going to hack my system or b.net's.
>
> Of course, the preceeding paragraphs assume that somebody at b.net can A)
> code worth a damn, and B) gives a damn. AFAICT, both statements are
false.
>
>
drop hack then death by mk - it's already been done in several different
ways.
I'm not saying that you can't have a game which isn't fool proof , but given
that it is a game, unless it's properly designed from the start (which is
costly) with these considerations, then it's highly uinlikely that it will
ever be iron clad and the cost of making changes along those lines become
prohibitive.
nyra
> crimes.
>
> WTF? You know a lot of people who can run around casting bone spirits,
> fireballs, and blessed hammers do ya?
Oh, i can cast bone spirits. Invisible ones, even. It's not my fault
everyone around here is magic immune.
> And they all have access to waypoints
> and town portals, too?
Town portals, yes. Commonly called bus tickets. In DiabloII, the
sequence where your character sits in a stuffy rattling vehicle for
half an hour just got cut.
--
zerbrechlich ist das hundelvieh
drum wirf es aus dem fenster nie
- Ernst Jandl, das hundelvieh
David Carson
> <ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031ce8a...@news.telus.net...
>
>>True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
>>_substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
>>welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
>
> Uhh not, not more likely. I kill other people in Unreal Tournament, that
> doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels in
> D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
> Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood, it
> doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
Oh, come on, you know that Roy isn't equating PKing with a criminal
mentality because PKers "kill" characters in a D2 game. He's equating it
with a criminal mentality because these people deliberately smash up
something that other people have built up, for no purpose beyond the
fact that they derive pleasure from causing other people unhappiness.
I'm sure other Unreal players might get peeved when you spank them down,
or that D2 players might get peeved if you PWNZ0R them mercilessly in a
duel, but we're talking a competitive fight between two players who want
to test their skills against each other. It's not the same thing as
kicking over someone's sandcastle after they've spent god knows how long
crafting it, and you know it.
I'm not offering a strong opinion either way, because I haven't spent
even 1% of the time playing online as I have playing SP, and I have
never actually even been hostiled, let alone PKed - but please, if
you're going to argue against Roy, argue against what he's saying, not
some "wtf? real criminals don't use bone spirits and blessed hammers!"
strawman.
Cheers!
David...
Shiflet
"David Carson" <da...@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
news:4032071f$0$22526$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Oh, come on, you know that Roy isn't equating PKing with a criminal
> mentality because PKers "kill" characters in a D2 game.
On the contrary, that's exactly what he's doing near as I can tell. And it's
absurd, thus the absurd comparisons.
> He's equating it with a criminal mentality because these people
deliberately smash up
> something that other people have built up, for no purpose beyond the
> fact that they derive pleasure from causing other people unhappiness.
Sure doesn't sound like it.
> I'm sure other Unreal players might get peeved when you spank them down,
They get real peeved if you repeatedly hide and do nothing but snipe at them
with a rifle(some even call you a "cheater"), but it doesn't mean the player
himself is a coward who's planning on taking out other people.
> or that D2 players might get peeved if you PWNZ0R them mercilessly in a
> duel, but we're talking a competitive fight between two players who want
> to test their skills against each other.
What about NKing and town guarding in duels? Or my favorite lame tactic, the
druid who did absolutely NOTHING but hostile everyone, then stand INSIDE
town and repeatedly cast his bear at people. I guess that means he's a
coward in real life? Cause he apparently got his fun from killing(or trying,
his success rate was rather low) from attacking players who were involved in
other duels?(and as an enjoyable ending to that story, said druid eventually
made the mistake of stepping outside town to try and cast a bear further
out, apparently not realizing just how fast a paladin's charge is. I charged
him, then smited to finish it, and from then on, he was toast. Everytime he
got his corpse, he was smacked back down, either by me or one of the several
others he annoyed)
> Cheers!
> David...
short
"Marshall" <Mars...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kxeYb.6685$WW3....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
It's about time you popped back in here!
How have you been??
short
B.B.
0ta...@sluggy.net (0tarin) wrote:
>Whitedog <jro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>> What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
>
>Being irritating to friendly folks?
"You stand there and I'll shoot you. Tell me how much damage I do."
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail.net
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/Iraq-LIES/LIES/britt.gif
B.B.
0ta...@sluggy.net (0tarin) wrote:
Yeah, I did that the other day to some punk bitch. Hehe. The little
squirt followed me on one of my visits to Mr. Soulless. He was a pretty
quick runner, so I ran right on through the cavern to make sure there
was a big old crowd behind up and no way back, flipped on my bone armor
and weakened everything in sight and just stood there for a while.
Occasionally, I'd recast bone armor or weaken. The leech's life went
down, down, down, UP form a potion, down, down, down, UP from a potion,
down, down down.... Then he wrote "Help!" So I unpartied and TPd back
to town. After he died I went back in, took his gold--GOSH he had a
lot--and invited him back.
Rarely have I seen so much profanity on the screen.
radiodude
> <ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031101a...@news.telus.net...
>
>>On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:51:14 -0500, Rast <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>PKs are not a significant issue in SC, because they know they can't
>>really hurt you. So very few people bother to PK in SC. Only HC
>>attracts the truly evil individuals whose enjoyment comes from
>>inflicting suffering on others. The desire to destroy what others
>>have built is the infallible mark of a subhuman, criminal mentality,
>>and HC PKs are essentially evil, vicious, subhuman criminals.
>
>
> But isn't it better that they take out their aggression in the game instead
> of torturing small animals or becoming a serial killer?
>
>
One thing leads to another...
Jim
radiodude
> <ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40302557...@news.telus.net...
>
>>Blizzard just can't seem to get their tongues out of the PK cheaters'
>>butt cheeks.
>>
>>I just lost my 85 HC ladder sorc to a trigger hack Blizzard has made
>>available so PK cheaters can murder all honorable players' HC chars.
>>The cheating filth, a necro (ABlackHole, account name KPMB-Avon,
>>USWest), fired a Bone Spirit, went to town and hostiled me, all in
>>less than 1 second. Character death appeared to precede the hostile
>>horn. Someone else in the game said that this particular subhuman
>>scum actually claims to have written the cheat himself.
>>
>>Blizzard obviously has any number of easy, simple ways to ensure that
>>no PK cheats could ever be possible. They do not use any of them
>>because highly placed Blizzard employees are strongly in favor of PKs,
>>especially HC PKs, and are almost certainly among the most active HC
>>PKs. The scum who triggered me claimed to live in CA. IMO, if his
>>claim to have written the cheat is true, it is quite likely that he is
>>a Blizzard programmer.
>>
>
>
> it's a bit rough being done like that :(
>
> I'd doubt very much that it was a blizz programmer though.
>
>
I still am pissed that one can hostile someone and attack without an
acceptance from the other player. There is no excuse for not having an
"accept" button and a "reject" button pop up when someone hostiles you.
Other than the BCM's attitude towards PK cheaters.
Jim
ro...@telus.net
<jro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I think there are loads of solutions that bliz could have implemented other
>than weakened rules on hostility to solve your problem. The one I think
>would work best is giving the person that creates a game, whether its pw or
>not, the ability to kick/ban people from the game. Takes care of the whole
>problem with no risk of PKers.
Problem: in many if not most cases, the game creator doesn't stay
around very long. This system would also make PKing all but
impossible in games where the creator was still around -- unless he
was a PK.
>I'm sure there are more PKers in hc than sc, and losing a character like
>that is unfair, and just plain pointless. They will never take hostility
>out of the game, but wish they would make it that both players had to
>declare hostility or that both player have to be in town.
Either of those would make PKing effectively impossible. Blizzard has
said they will never, ever do that.
IMO a better way to deal with it, and to eliminate all the PK cheats,
is just to make it _impossible_ for a hostiled char to take any damage
whatsoever from a hostiling character until 5 seconds after the
hostile sounds. Problem solved. They wouldn't even have to restrict
hostiling to chars in town (Blizzard's stupid attempt to make PvP
"fair" through this restriction has been the basic source of _every_
commonly used PK cheat, AFAIK).
>I think they
>really do ruin the hc experience by forcing you into private games.
No question about it. And as HC is definitely a minority taste, many
if not most players will find it impossible to get private games with
honorable players of appropriate level.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
?? Doesn't drop hack require the victim to be using the drop hack
PKer's cheat? Using a cheat that could get you drop hacked is
tantamount to agreeing to be PKed, IMO.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
<dark...@overthere.nothere> wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:05:17 GMT, ro...@telus.net wrote:
>
>>The reason is very obvious: it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to
>>put a stop to PK cheats once and for all.
>
>No, it wouldn't. No software is unhackable, and online game hackers
>are some of the most determined out there. Hundreds of thousands of
>scumbags can and will find a way to crack any safety they put in. The
>only cheatproof game is one without players. Period.
That is just ridiculous. Cheats always rely on particular vulnerable
points in code or design. Eliminate the vulnerable points, and the
cheats can't work. In the case of PK cheats, all the common ones rely
on Blizzard's stupid idea of trying to make PvP "fair" by only
allowing hostiling in town. Replace that error in design with sound
design, and the problem goes away.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031c460...@news.telus.net...
>
>> That is certainly false. I play in lots of public games, and about
>> 90% of the players agree that PKs are subhuman filth, and _by_far_ the
>> very worst part of the game.
>
>I play in lots of public games too, and most people I talk to consider
>Gloams and Iron Maiden casting O. Knights far worse than PKers.
I have lost _one_ HC char to gloams, and _one_ to IM. Dozens to PKs.
>Seriously, I
>suspect were there to be a poll conducted, I suspect gloams, OKs, rarity of
>certain runes/items, *questing* and cheap dueling skills like blessed hammer
>would all come in as being far worse than PKers.
And I am _certain_ you are wrong, at least for HC players.
>> Maybe by selling cheats and bugged gear to them, but certainly not by
>> selling more copies of the game to them. Griefers and PKs are
>> cheaters by nature. They won't even buy the game legally if they can
>> possibly find a way to hack CD keys, or use some other way to avoid
>> paying for it.
>
>My god, you are smart sometimes, but here, you're being foolish. Lots of
>people BUY games but still cheat during them. I've done it myself before.
>Not in D2, but in other games(including D1). Yet I bought them all.
The point is, PKs are fundamentally criminal mentalities. They are
far more likely to want to find a way to play the game without paying
for a copy, and to find one, than honorable players. So much if not
most of the revenue Blizzard thinks it is getting from PKs simply does
not exist -- like the revenue they are not getting from people who
don't want to be PKed.
>> Sure. But that's _despite_ their stupidity in catering to PK
>> cheaters, not because of it. They would have sold more copies if PKs
>> were not making Bnet such a cesspool.
>
>IMHO, that's complete bullshit. Can you find me a single person, anywhere,
>who says they would buy D2, if only it weren't for PKers? Seriously, find me
>ONE SINGLE PERSON and even that will be quite impressive.
Me. I was planning to buy another copy to put on another machine, but
I will not until I am convinced the PK issue has been dealt with.
>> And _many_ people have not bought the game because one of the parts
>> they didn't like was being cheated by subhuman filth.
>
>Many? Name one?
Me.
>> ??? HC is such a small part of the game because
>> _people_hate_being_cheated_out_of_their_chars_and_items_by_PK_filth_,
>
>Or they don't like getting lagged and dying from something they never see,
>or cause they have slow comps that they don't feel run fast enough to take a
>chance on HK, or cause they don't want to lose their characters EVER(to
>PKers, OR anything else) no matter what, or cause they like to duel and
>don't want to rebuild their characters every single time they lose a fight,
>or...get the picture?
Sure, there are lots of reasons not to play HC, perhaps the best being
flaky connections. But IMO there are very few HC players who do not
think PKs are by far the worst part of HC on the realms. So at the
margin, as they say in economics, it is PKs that stop people from
playing HC, more than any other consideration.
>> I'd been soloing the WSK for a while, then a druid entered, I partied,
>> then a whole bunch of people entered and partied. And I hadn't heard
>> of the BS cheat, as it was only released the day before.
>
>I hadn't heard of the BS cheat either, but I'd have the sense to stay away
>from or at least keep a very close eye on any character with "PK" in their
>name, too.
It wasn't in his char name. It was in his account name, and it was
KPMB -- even when I saw it afterwards, I first thought of the
accounting firm :^). JUst how much time am I supposed to devote to
poring over the account names of everyone who enters my games, trying
to figure out if there is a hint of Pk intent there?
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>"Bother!", said Pooh, as he read ro...@telus.net's latest post to
>alt.games.diablo.
>
>>On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:12:30 GMT, Anadriel <Anadrie...@shaw.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"Who goes there?" I asked, "Oh, tis only ro...@telus.net. Come on in
>>>then."
>>>>>I don't believe it's a Blizzard employee. It's jsut some little kid who
>>>>>thinks it's cool to cheat.
>>>>
>>>>It wasn't a little kid, I can assure you. His messages were those of
>>>>an adult.
>>>
>>>I am a little kid, and I talk like and adult...
>>
>>No, you don't. You are either a little kid, or an adult trying to
>>talk like one.
>
>And you're either an ass, or a normal person trying very hard to behave
>like one. So?
I'm right. Deal with it.
-- Roy L
Zamboni
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40325712...@news.telus.net...
> >
> >drop hack then death by mk - it's already been done in several different
> >ways.
>
> ?? Doesn't drop hack require the victim to be using the drop hack
> PKer's cheat? Using a cheat that could get you drop hacked is
> tantamount to agreeing to be PKed, IMO.
>
There have been multiple ways to drophack characters. No need for software,
since Blizzard included plenty of them in the shipping code.
One of them was as simple as a Druid taking off his helmet. - anyone who saw
it happen was dropped from the game.
--
Zamboni
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031ce8a...@news.telus.net...
>> True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
>> _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
>> welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
>
>Uhh not, not more likely. I kill other people in Unreal Tournament, that
>doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels in
>D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
>Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood, it
>doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
PKing is different from those, of course. In your first two examples,
you are seeking a consensual competition where both sides agree to
fight and have more or less equal chances. A PK seeks opportunities
to kill where he runs zero risk, and his victim has zero chance -- and
typically, zero warning. In your third example, your victims are not
real people. Totally different case.
>> And I don't know but what Pking doesn't function as a rehearsal for real
>crimes.
>
>WTF? You know a lot of people who can run around casting bone spirits,
>fireballs, and blessed hammers do ya? And they all have access to waypoints
>and town portals, too?
PKing, especially in HC, is rehearsing the mental state of intending
to cause suffering to others, and the emotional gratification
resulting from causing suffering to others. The mechanism is utterly
irrelevant. That another real human being will suffer as a result of
his actions is fundamental to the PK mentality, as to the criminal
mentality.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>"David Carson" <da...@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
>news:4032071f$0$22526$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
>> Oh, come on, you know that Roy isn't equating PKing with a criminal
>> mentality because PKers "kill" characters in a D2 game.
>
>On the contrary, that's exactly what he's doing near as I can tell.
No. You have completely missed the point. The fact that it is
"killing" is irrelevant. The key point is that the _only_ motive for
doing it is to cause a real human being to suffer. It is essentially
the same as vandalism: a vandal doesn't know or care about his victim;
he just knows someone will suffer financial cost, inconvenience, a
sense of violation and loss, etc. as a result of his actions. It
wouldn't matter if a D2 cheat somehow made it possible to steal
another char's items while leaving the char alive, or if it was The
Sims, and you had the ability to, say, burn someone else's carefully
crafted dwelling while leaving the chars unscathed.
>> He's equating it with a criminal mentality because these people
>deliberately smash up
>> something that other people have built up, for no purpose beyond the
>> fact that they derive pleasure from causing other people unhappiness.
>
>Sure doesn't sound like it.
Sorry if I expressed myself badly -- but David seems to have
understood me perfectly.
>> or that D2 players might get peeved if you PWNZ0R them mercilessly in a
>> duel, but we're talking a competitive fight between two players who want
>> to test their skills against each other.
>
>What about NKing and town guarding in duels? Or my favorite lame tactic, the
>druid who did absolutely NOTHING but hostile everyone, then stand INSIDE
>town and repeatedly cast his bear at people. I guess that means he's a
>coward in real life? Cause he apparently got his fun from killing(or trying,
>his success rate was rather low) from attacking players who were involved in
>other duels?(and as an enjoyable ending to that story, said druid eventually
>made the mistake of stepping outside town to try and cast a bear further
>out, apparently not realizing just how fast a paladin's charge is. I charged
>him, then smited to finish it, and from then on, he was toast. Everytime he
>got his corpse, he was smacked back down, either by me or one of the several
>others he annoyed)
He was just an annoyance. You go to another game, you've lost
_nothing_. He knew it, and you knew it.
And sometimes people like that can be really funny. I remember one
necro who ran around screaming, "Help! Help me!" in town, explaining
that his skels were chasing him because they were "evil skels," and
then saying, "Die! Time to die!" as he unsummoned them. Then his
golem turned "evil"...
-- Roy L
Dave Ryan
:
: On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:39:13 -0800, LineNoise <line...@pobox.com>
So is LineNoise. Do you have a point?
-dave
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032593a...@news.telus.net...
> I have lost _one_ HC char to gloams, and _one_ to IM. Dozens to PKs.
That's you. You are not B.net.
> The point is, PKs are fundamentally criminal mentalities.
No, they are not. No more than saying people who like FPS games are
fundamentally killers.
> Me. I was planning to buy another copy to put on another machine, but
> I will not until I am convinced the PK issue has been dealt with.
You already bought 1 copy, that doesn't count! That's like saying you won't
buy a band's CD cause you don't like the last song...but you only say that
*after* already buying it.
>JUst how much time am I supposed to devote to
> poring over the account names of everyone who enters my games, trying
> to figure out if there is a hint of Pk intent there?
Shouldn't take long. If PK or KP are in the name, be wary.
> -- Roy L
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40325cf4...@news.telus.net...
> PKing is different from those, of course. In your first two examples,
> you are seeking a consensual competition where both sides agree to
> fight and have more or less equal chances.
Not necessarily.
> A PK seeks opportunities to kill where he runs zero risk, and his victim
has zero chance
Wanna know how many PKs I've taken out, just by myself? Many PKs DO run
risk, and do have a chance. That's part of what makes it appealing for many
PKers, the risk is much higher than almost anything else.
> The mechanism is utterly irrelevant. That another real human being will
suffer as a result of
> his actions is fundamental to the PK mentality, as to the criminal
> mentality.
You are full of shit, sorry.
> -- Roy L
TBA
> wrote:
>
> ><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message
> >> True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
> >> _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
> >> welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
> >
> >Uhh not, not more likely. I kill other people in Unreal Tournament, that
> >doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels
in
> >D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
> >Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood,
it
> >doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
>
> you are seeking a consensual competition where both sides agree to
> to kill where he runs zero risk
What you are describing is a cheating PKer. There is absolutely nothing
wrong with entering a game, hostiling everybody, and then actively seeking
them out and killing them. That, imo, is what Blizz' intent was with the PK
feature.
UNFORTUNATELY, as you were recently made aware, people PK cheat so as to
eliminate any risk to themselves.
**********
PKing has a place in the game. You just need to adjust your language to
refer to those who are PK cheats versus those who PK legitimately. And yes,
there are legitimate PKers on the realms.
**********
Also, I find your conspiracy theory ludicrous. Sure, there may in fact be a
Blizz employee who PK's, who may even cheat PK. However, I am extremely,
EXTREMELY skeptical of the idea of this as policy or some other "black"
operation carried out by Blizzard. While I am not an economist or a
programmer, I would imagine that you have absolutely no idea of the factors
involved in fixing these "minor" bugs that allow the cheat PKers to exist.
How easy it is to state, with no supporting evidence whatsoever, that these
"glitches" that Blizzard "allows" are easily repairable. I am guessing that
the costs involved in doing so are economically unrealistic.
I am sorry you were taken out. It happens. My suggestions: Stop playing
D2, or stop playing HC. Or, try Maphack, lots of nice features there. Or,
just deal with it. Better yet, form a band of PKKers and hunt the bastards
down. Whining about Blizzards ineptitude does nothing to solve the problem.
The only function whining does is make you feel marginally better and annoy
others.
Just my $.02.
-gk-
Mark
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031c460...@news.telus.net...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:07:08 GMT, "Mark" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Because their stupidity and the indefensibility of their policy was
> made unavoidably evident to everyone here.
That's certainly a creative way of looking at it. But if you look back on
Blizzards explanation, what they said was pretty much dead on. PKing is NOT
a major problem. The only ones who fall victim (even to the most skilled
PKs) are newbies and careless/reckless folks. And PKing does give the game
an element of danger that PvM cannot.
> >This group is pretty much in the extremely anti-PK
> >side of the issue.
>
> That is certainly false. I play in lots of public games, and about
> 90% of the players agree that PKs are subhuman filth, and _by_far_ the
> very worst part of the game.
You apparently live in a very insular world. Unless you seek out a variety
of sources, you cannot hope to gain a clear picture (hell, if I only relied
on one media source, I'd probably even believe that GWB is doing a good job
as president). Check out some other sources on the PK issue. I know the last
time a poll was done on the Dii.net HC forum it was fairly evenly split
between the pro, neutral and anti groups. The LL is also far more accepting
of PKs than here. On East HC, both GAT and the Misfits, probably the largest
co-op playing groups, have many members who PK (just not in their group). In
this group I may seem like a moderate on the issue, but my strong anti PK
opinions have cost me far more playing partners than they have attracted.
Sorry, but I just don't see the 90% figure being anything more than
ridiculous.
> >But like Blizzard said way back then, it was an economic
> >decision.
>
> It wasn't. It was a sociopathic decision. IMO there is no doubt that
> D2 would have sold more copies -- it would certainly have been a far
> better game -- if PK cheats had been prevented from the outset.
Let me talk to one person, one single person, who did not buy DII/LoD
because of the PK issue. I do not believe such a person exists. I can easily
give you half a dozen folks right off the top of my head who bought the
games only because they COULD PK.
> >They figured that we'd put up with the Griefers, and they could
> >make money from them.
>
> Maybe by selling cheats and bugged gear to them, but certainly not by
> selling more copies of the game to them. Griefers and PKs are
> cheaters by nature.
LOL, it's funny to read PKs justifying their actions because all PvM players
are item scanning, chicken using, cheaters. They claim that the cheater
mentality is inherent in PvMers, and they are just teaching these scum a
lesson.
Cheating and PK/PvM are separate issues. Both PKs and PvMers have people who
cheat and those who play honestly. So making broad generalizations just
shows your argument as fluff.
> Sure. But that's _despite_ their stupidity in catering to PK
> cheaters, not because of it. They would have sold more copies if PKs
> were not making Bnet such a cesspool.
>
> The plain fact is, anyone who just wants to play D@ in SP or TCP/IP
> games doesn't have to buy the game. There are lots of pirate versions
> around. You only have to buy it if you want to play on the realms.
> But if griefers scare people off the realms -- and there is little
> doubt that they do -- those people have that much less motive to buy
> the game.
I still don't believe there are (m)any people who have not bought the game
solely due to the PK implementation. But even so, your argument is only
valid if B-net was a pay per play system. Where you make more money by
keeping people paying. But with DII/LoD they only get your money once
(each). So whether you play B-net never, once, constantly means little to
them. Blizzard is a business, and business means maximizing profits.
> >As far as the cheaters go, it's just a matter of priorities and
resources.
> >At this point DII/LoD is low priority and very limited resources.
>
> Which is _really_stupid_ considering it is probably still outselling
> all their other games combined.
Really, I find that hard to believe. I mean you see that whole Diablo combo
pack (D/DII/LoD) in the bargain bins.
> ??? HC is such a small part of the game because
> _people_hate_being_cheated_out_of_their_chars_and_items_by_PK_filth_,
> and stay away from HC on that account.
People stay away from HC because they cannot accept losing their
character/items, period. That is why HC is small.
> PK cheaters are the only thing
> that would stop me from playing HC, and nothing else is second.
Don't quit, learn to out smart them.
> I'd been soloing the WSK for a while, then a druid entered, I partied,
> then a whole bunch of people entered and partied. And I hadn't heard
> of the BS cheat, as it was only released the day before.
Whenever someone enters the game always read their character and account
names. Many times there are clear indications that it is a PK. Seems they
can't resist that little tease. And watch for backwards and
capitalization's.
Particularly if I have a high level character or no looter, I like to talk
to people before we party up. Not only does that avoid some of the PKs, it
protects you from the 1337 speaking twits.
People joining up quickly and playing, sounds like a 'run' game. They're
VERY dangerous. Think of yourself as a wildebeest going down to the water
hole. Eventually the lions are gonna get ya. So if you play 'run' games, be
prepared AT ALL TIMES.
> >I don't get too close to ANY one. And a Necro using BS in a hell party
should
> >have set off your spider sense.
>
> He joined, he partied, he arrived, he killed me, all in about 5
> seconds.
Quite careless on your part I must say, if he was able to PK you within 5
seconds of joining the game.
> What I have learned from being PKed by at least half a dozen different
> cheats is that Blizzard _wants_ vandals to make cheats, and the only
> way not to be killed by them is to play only in passworded games, and
> only with people you know. Bye-bye Bnet.
Without a subscription service, it is impossible to maintain a game hack
proof. I'm not a programmer and even _I_ know that. Yet you attribute it to
a conspiracy. I really am sorry that you lost your character Roy. But if
it's got you this irrational, maybe you should consider giving up HC.
> Right. Blizzard made a deliberate, conscious decision to make these
> cheats available for the convenience of PK filth. Like I said.
Blizzard has a proven track record for incompetence, so I think that is a
much more likely explanation. But OK, I'll play the conspiracy game. So just
who is behind it? It would have to be someone pretty high up, not just some
grunt programmer. But hey, everyone with any power at Blizzard has quit over
the last few years. Hmmm, so who is the mystery man? And wouldn't they have
had to direct underlings on leaving these PK cheat loopholes in the game? Do
you think that would be a juicy tidbit for a former Blizzard employee to
reveal? They've had quite a turnover, yet nobody has spilled the dirt.
You're right, it's a conspiracy.
I think the more ominous implications of this go far beyond trigger hack. If
the BM weenies were capable of writing a successful script, what else is out
there. It's only a small step to the next generation of shopbot, pindlebot,
cowbot, followbot, ... The clean realms and fresh start of the ladder are
done. RIP
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
HC East
Shiflet
"Mark" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WVwYb.9072$hm4...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> That's certainly a creative way of looking at it. But if you look back on
> Blizzards explanation, what they said was pretty much dead on. PKing is
NOT
> a major problem. The only ones who fall victim (even to the most skilled
> PKs) are newbies and careless/reckless folks.
Well, to "real" PKers, true. But not to script kiddies(unless you're
immediately going to leave the game anytime a character that can trigger
arrives, which rules out playing with sorcs, zons, pallies, and necros...).
The only way to avoid them is to note their character and account name. If
someone with a name like "IPwnUrAss" or "PK_UNow" joins your game, it might
be wise to avoid them.
> Check out some other sources on the PK issue. I know the last
> time a poll was done on the Dii.net HC forum it was fairly evenly split
> between the pro, neutral and anti groups.
Yep, I remember that thread. A similar discussion was carried out on the SC
board as well, and again, it was a pretty much even split. Gloams and IMing
Knights are FAR more equally agreed upon as being bad than PKing is.
> Sorry, but I just don't see the 90% figure being anything more than
> ridiculous.
Exactly
> Let me talk to one person, one single person, who did not buy DII/LoD
> because of the PK issue.
I already asked that. His answer was himself. Although since he already HAS
the game, and was only considering buying a second copy, even that doesn't
count. It wasn't so bad that he wouldn't buy the game, it was just so bad
that he'd only buy 1 copy rather than 2. And somehow, I don't think Blizzard
ever expects people to buy more than 1 copy(unless they get their CD key
banned), so they wouldn't even consider it a real loss.
> > Maybe by selling cheats and bugged gear to them, but certainly not by
> > selling more copies of the game to them. Griefers and PKs are
> > cheaters by nature.
>
> LOL, it's funny to read PKs justifying their actions because all PvM
players
> are item scanning, chicken using, cheaters. They claim that the cheater
> mentality is inherent in PvMers, and they are just teaching these scum a
> lesson.
Hmm...you have a point I didn't think about. PKers *certainly* are not the
only ones who cheat, so I guess ~1/2 to 2/3(or more) of the people on b.net
have a "criminal mentality", and as such, probably never bought the
game(remember, according to Roy, cheaters think like criminals, and
criminals wouldn't buy the game. So...I guess D2 barely sold at all?).
Maphack(and as such, chicken hack and item scan and other things) is common,
in PVM just as much as PK. Back when Iths and Whites and other hacked items
were around, PKers were FAR from the only people using them. The rune duping
that took place not that long ago certainly was not limited to PKers either.
> But with DII/LoD they only get your money once (each).
Except for Roy, who was going to give it to them twice, but left it at once
because of PK.
> People stay away from HC because they cannot accept losing their
> character/items, period. That is why HC is small.
Exactly. People don't want to invest time in a character, in leveling them,
getting them top quality items, etc, only to lose it. Doesn't mattern if
it's cause of a PKer, a lag spike, a moronic glitch like the periodic Gloam
1 hit kills or the old bugged FE boss monster bug that let them do 20k
damage, a slow modem, or getting stair trapped by a pack of extra fast
Fanatacism moonlords who kill you before you even have time for alt F4.
> Whenever someone enters the game always read their character and account
> names. Many times there are clear indications that it is a PK.
True. Although not everyone with "PK" in their name is a PKer(many duelists
put "PK" in their name, but still quest and do runs in parties and make no
attempt to PK anyone who doesn't agree to it), it's still good to be very
wary.
> People joining up quickly and playing, sounds like a 'run' game.
Yep, run games *are* major targets.
> Blizzard has a proven track record for incompetence, so I think that is a
> much more likely explanation.
Blizzard is the company that when they released 1.10, accidentally made it
so that FE bosses added 20k+ fire damage to their attacks, and didn't
realize it. Yes, I'd say incompetence is a far more likely explanation.
Mark
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032593a...@news.telus.net...
"Shiflet"
> >Seriously, I
> >suspect were there to be a poll conducted, I suspect gloams, OKs, rarity
of
> >certain runes/items, *questing* and cheap dueling skills like blessed
hammer
> >would all come in as being far worse than PKers.
>
> And I am _certain_ you are wrong, at least for HC players.
Where do you get your information. Because the HC forums/groups I frequent
agree more with Shiflet.
> But IMO there are very few HC players who do not
> think PKs are by far the worst part of HC on the realms.
Amongst the HC dueling community, Maphack's item scan it the most despised.
For the legit HC PKs, it's Chickenhack. Seroius traders hate dupes. But I
agree, most co-op PvM only players hate PKs most.
Zamboni
"Mark" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WVwYb.9072$hm4...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
largest
> co-op playing groups, have many members who PK (just not in their group).
In
To me, this seems the height of hypocrisy. If PKs were truly welcomed as
part of the game, then why wouldn't they kill members of their group?
Wouldn't their activities be welcomed and praised by the rest of the team?
Surely, killing a clan member in a co-op game would offer a greater
challenge - and the greater honor - than ambushing some innocent in a public
game.
--
Zamboni
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032593a...@news.telus.net...
>> I have lost _one_ HC char to gloams, and _one_ to IM. Dozens to PKs.
>
>That's you. You are not B.net.
Ask any experienced HC realms player what kills more of their chars
than anything else -- and often, more of them than
_everything_else_combined_.
>> The point is, PKs are fundamentally criminal mentalities.
>
>No, they are not.
Yes, they are. There is absolutely no doubt of it.
>No more than saying people who like FPS games are
>fundamentally killers.
Wrong. A PK's _intent_ (especially in HC) is to cause another human
being to suffer. His _only_ motive is malice -- the very definition
of a criminal mentality. FPS players know they are just killing
electrons, or if it is a PvP game, they are competing with other
people who know the score and are also trying to kill them.
>> Me. I was planning to buy another copy to put on another machine, but
>> I will not until I am convinced the PK issue has been dealt with.
>
>You already bought 1 copy, that doesn't count!
It sure as hell does. Blizzard lost a sale by stupidly sacrificing my
enjoyment of their game for the sick pleasure of some sociopathic
cheater, who is probably using a CD key generator anyway. Case
closed.
>That's like saying you won't
>buy a band's CD cause you don't like the last song...but you only say that
>*after* already buying it.
What?!? Come off it. How is anybody going to know the game well
enough to have an opinion without buying it?
>>JUst how much time am I supposed to devote to
>> poring over the account names of everyone who enters my games, trying
>> to figure out if there is a hint of Pk intent there?
>
>Shouldn't take long. If PK or KP are in the name, be wary.
And even if they aren't, don't be surprised when, with _no_ warning,
you suddenly get the "deeds" screen anyway.
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
No, he isn't.
>Do you have a point?
Do you have a brain?
-- Roy L
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40325cf4...@news.telus.net...
>> PKing is different from those, of course. In your first two examples,
>> you are seeking a consensual competition where both sides agree to
>> fight and have more or less equal chances.
>
>Not necessarily.
Yes, necessarily.
>> A PK seeks opportunities to kill where he runs zero risk, and his victim
>has zero chance
>
>Wanna know how many PKs I've taken out, just by myself?
Sure. But if it wasn't HC, they weren't running any risk at all. The
typical HC PK is an extreme coward who won't even tackle monsters
without massive twinks.
>Many PKs DO run
>risk, and do have a chance.
Nope. Very, very few of them do.
>That's part of what makes it appealing for many
>PKers, the risk is much higher than almost anything else.
Yeah, higher than anything but playing MP on the realms when you
_aren't_ a PK.
>> The mechanism is utterly irrelevant. That another real human being will
>suffer as a result of
>> his actions is fundamental to the PK mentality, as to the criminal
>> mentality.
>
>You are full of shit, sorry.
Oooh, there's a cogent argument.
I am identifying the facts of reality for you. Sorry.
-- Roy L
Mark
"Zamboni" <zam...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:c0u8jv$8db$1...@nntp2-cm.news.eni.net...
> To me, this seems the height of hypocrisy. If PKs were truly welcomed as
> part of the game, then why wouldn't they kill members of their group?
> Wouldn't their activities be welcomed and praised by the rest of the team?
> Surely, killing a clan member in a co-op game would offer a greater
> challenge - and the greater honor - than ambushing some innocent in a
public
> game.
Well, at least for GAT, it's a legit co-op playing group. So as long as you
play honestly, and act civil and respect the rules (no using the hostile
button in GAT games), what you do outside of 'GAT games' is irrelevant.
PKing is an intended part of the game, so the feeling is you cannot penalize
someone for playing the game as it was intended.
I disagree so my playing circle has decreased.
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032a39a...@news.telus.net...
> Ask any experienced HC realms player what kills more of their chars
> than anything else -- and often, more of them than
> _everything_else_combined_.
I have, you're wrong.
> Yes, they are. There is absolutely no doubt of it.
There most certainly is doubt about it.
> Wrong. A PK's _intent_ (especially in HC) is to cause another human
> being to suffer. His _only_ motive is malice --
WRONG. Many of them do it for the challenge. Another player is a far greater
threat than nearly anything else in the game. I can solo *almost* any area
of the game with my paladin(only places I can't are with Oblivion Knights,
and only then cause they have a tendency to IM me in mid zeal). I can stand
toe to toe with D Clone and beat him, easy. A good paladin or barb is far
more of a challenge.
> or if it is a PvP game,
What about PvP games where some people don't want to duel EVERYONE, but only
some people? I know people who won't duel Hammerdins or Fireball sorcs, so
if those characters attack them in a duel game, despite a duel NOT being
agreed upon, or those people "criminals" too?
> It sure as hell does.
No, it doesn't. Blizzard expects people to buy 1 copy of the game, that's
it. If you bought the game, Blizzard got all they ever expected from you.
> What?!? Come off it. How is anybody going to know the game well
> enough to have an opinion without buying it?
Uhh, look chief, YOU were the one claiming to know "people" who won't buy
the game cause of PK(and who still mysteriously remain unnamed).
> -- Roy L
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032a6ff...@news.telus.net...
> Yes, necessarily.
Maybe wherever it is that you've been spending time lately, but not in
reality.
> Sure. But if it wasn't HC, they weren't running any risk at all.
I've done it twice in HC(before I gave up HC...due to lag).
> Nope. Very, very few of them do.
I've SEEN several get killed.
> >That's part of what makes it appealing for many
> >PKers, the risk is much higher than almost anything else.
>
> Yeah, higher than anything but playing MP on the realms when you
> _aren't_ a PK.
I play multi player on the realms, and there pretty much IS no risk. I can
stand toe to toe with almost anything, and win, even in 8 player games. I've
fought Might aura moonlord packs and *I* won. PvM is EASY, PKing is much
riskier.
> I am identifying the facts of reality for you. Sorry.
No, you're idenitfying "facts" that have NO BASIS in reality. Sorry.
> -- Roy L
Zamboni
games) in the first place? Is this an admission that they are not playing
the game as it was intended?
Why should they be upset about a GAT member - playing the game as it was
intended - slaughtering an entire GAT party during a questing game? Or more
simply, why is it okay for them to disrupt someone else's game, but it's not
okay to disrupt one of their games? (Not pointing out just GAT, but any
co-op group that feels a need for this rule.)
The continuous PK assaults was one of the reasons I quit playing HC. I was
never an easy target, but there was always this ever-present feeling of
mistrust in many of the games, and the only way to deal with ChickenHacks
was not to play.
--
Zamboni
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:40325cf4...@news.telus.net...
>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:42:52 -0600, "Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message
>news:4031ce8a...@news.telus.net...
>> >> True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
>> >> _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
>> >> welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
>> >
>> >Uhh not, not more likely. I kill other people in Unreal Tournament, that
>> >doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels
>in
>> >D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
>> >Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood,
>it
>> >doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
>>
>> PKing is different from those, of course. In your first two examples,
>> you are seeking a consensual competition where both sides agree to
>> fight and have more or less equal chances. A PK seeks opportunities
>> to kill where he runs zero risk
>
>What you are describing is a cheating PKer.
More than 90% of PKs cheat. Maybe more than 99%.
>There is absolutely nothing
>wrong with entering a game, hostiling everybody, and then actively seeking
>them out and killing them.
Except that IME PKs almost never do that, and when they try, they are
seldom successful. I could easily live with PKs like that.
>That, imo, is what Blizz' intent was with the PK
>feature.
Then they should have used a hostile damage delay instead of their
stupid town-hostile cheat-enabling system.
>PKing has a place in the game. You just need to adjust your language to
>refer to those who are PK cheats versus those who PK legitimately. And yes,
>there are legitimate PKers on the realms.
The fact that you say that demonstrates just how rare they are.
>Also, I find your conspiracy theory ludicrous.
"Whenever I see something that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, I
know there must be a damn good reason for it." -- Peter de Vries
>Sure, there may in fact be a
>Blizz employee who PK's, who may even cheat PK.
"May be"? IMO it is virtually certain that there is more than one.
And who is better placed to write the hacks?
>However, I am extremely,
>EXTREMELY skeptical of the idea of this as policy or some other "black"
>operation carried out by Blizzard.
That's not what I said.
>While I am not an economist or a
>programmer, I would imagine that you have absolutely no idea of the factors
>involved in fixing these "minor" bugs that allow the cheat PKers to exist.
I am not a programmer or economist either, but the fact is, it would
be trivially simple to stop the cheats while allowing legit PKs. Just
put a delay between the hostile and the ability to inflict damage on
the intended victim. Problem solved.
>How easy it is to state, with no supporting evidence whatsoever, that these
>"glitches" that Blizzard "allows" are easily repairable.
See above. When a player hostiles, let the victim know immediately by
the hostile horn, but _don't_change_anything_else_ for 5 seconds (or
10, or however long it takes to ensure lag won't be an issue). The PK
can't hurt the victim before hostiling, so he can't hurt the victim
for 5 seconds after hostiling, either. Then, _only_ after the 5
seconds have elapsed, execute the code that allows the Pk to hurt the
victim. Problem solved.
>I am guessing that
>the costs involved in doing so are economically unrealistic.
What, about an hour's work?
>I am sorry you were taken out. It happens. My suggestions: Stop playing
>D2, or stop playing HC.
What bollocks. Every HC player who played the first few PK-free weeks
on the 1.10 ladder knows how great it was, how much _better_ it was
than the current PK-cheat-friendly mess. Blizzard is fouling up their
own game through outright stupidity, and I am not going to stop
identifying that fact just because Blizzard is too stupid to listen to
the people who actually play the game.
>Or, try Maphack, lots of nice features there. Or,
>just deal with it. Better yet, form a band of PKKers and hunt the bastards
>down. Whining about Blizzards ineptitude does nothing to solve the problem.
How do you know? How are they going to fix their game if the players
don't give them feedback? What _motive_ do they have to fix it if
that feedback does not consist of potentially sales-reducing negative
PR in a public forum?
>The only function whining does is make you feel marginally better and annoy
>others.
Jeez. _I_ am annoying others? If you don't want to read my posts,
killfile me. PKs don't give _me_ that option.
-- Roy L
Mark
"Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10358ln...@corp.supernews.com...
> I don't think Blizzard
> ever expects people to buy more than 1 copy
I know someone who has 12, on two home networks. Can you say full game
whenever you want.
> Hmm...you have a point I didn't think about. PKers *certainly* are not the
> only ones who cheat, so I guess ~1/2 to 2/3(or more) of the people on
b.net
> have a "criminal mentality", and as such, probably never bought the
> game(remember, according to Roy, cheaters think like criminals, and
> criminals wouldn't buy the game. So...I guess D2 barely sold at all?).
> Maphack(and as such, chicken hack and item scan and other things) is
common,
> in PVM just as much as PK. Back when Iths and Whites and other hacked
items
> were around, PKers were FAR from the only people using them. The rune
duping
> that took place not that long ago certainly was not limited to PKers
either.
I'm one of Roy's statistical anomalies I guess. I use to use Maphack for the
anti drophack, so that makes me a cheater. Yet I've never pushed the hostile
button, and I paid for my DII/LoD on the days they came out.
> Except for Roy, who was going to give it to them twice, but left it at
once
> because of PK.
That one has me baffled. He already has the game, and has played it enough
to have had 'dozens' of characters killed by hacking PKs. So what's
boycotting buying a second copy, of a 3.5 year old game, from the bargain
bin, going to prove? Bottom line, I have never even heard of anyone who
never bought the game because of the PK implementation. While I know several
who bought it only because of PKing. That's certainly not statistically
valid, but given that's what Blizzard claimed right from the start, it sure
as hell seems valid to me. And I think Blizzards marketing department knows
a little more than Roy.
> True. Although not everyone with "PK" in their name is a PKer(many
duelists
> put "PK" in their name, but still quest and do runs in parties and make no
> attempt to PK anyone who doesn't agree to it), it's still good to be very
> wary.
I refuse to party with ANY character with PK in their name. Call me
paranoid, but I've only been PKd three times in almost two years of HC. And
in each of those three deaths I did something stupid.
ro...@telus.net
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031c460...@news.telus.net...
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:07:08 GMT, "Mark" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Because their stupidity and the indefensibility of their policy was
>> made unavoidably evident to everyone here.
>
>That's certainly a creative way of looking at it. But if you look back on
>Blizzards explanation, what they said was pretty much dead on. PKing is NOT
>a major problem.
It is by far the _biggest_ problem for almost _all_ HC players,
guaranteed.
>The only ones who fall victim (even to the most skilled
>PKs) are newbies and careless/reckless folks.
Utter garbage. Some of the top HC ladder chars have fallen to PK
cheats. These are most definitely _not_ careless or reckless folks.
>And PKing does give the game
>an element of danger that PvM cannot.
True: arbitrary death without warning.
>> >This group is pretty much in the extremely anti-PK
>> >side of the issue.
>>
>> That is certainly false. I play in lots of public games, and about
>> 90% of the players agree that PKs are subhuman filth, and _by_far_ the
>> very worst part of the game.
>
>You apparently live in a very insular world.
??? Public realms games are "an insular wold'?
>Unless you seek out a variety
>of sources, you cannot hope to gain a clear picture (hell, if I only relied
>on one media source, I'd probably even believe that GWB is doing a good job
>as president). Check out some other sources on the PK issue. I know the last
>time a poll was done on the Dii.net HC forum it was fairly evenly split
>between the pro, neutral and anti groups.
That's a known PK hangout.
>The LL is also far more accepting
>of PKs than here. On East HC, both GAT and the Misfits, probably the largest
>co-op playing groups, have many members who PK (just not in their group). In
>this group I may seem like a moderate on the issue, but my strong anti PK
>opinions have cost me far more playing partners than they have attracted.
>Sorry, but I just don't see the 90% figure being anything more than
>ridiculous.
Whatever. It's my impression.
>> >But like Blizzard said way back then, it was an economic
>> >decision.
>>
>> It wasn't. It was a sociopathic decision. IMO there is no doubt that
>> D2 would have sold more copies -- it would certainly have been a far
>> better game -- if PK cheats had been prevented from the outset.
>
>Let me talk to one person, one single person, who did not buy DII/LoD
>because of the PK issue.
You're talkin' to him.
>I do not believe such a person exists.
Just one more thing you're wrong about, then, isn't it?
>I can easily
>give you half a dozen folks right off the top of my head who bought the
>games only because they COULD PK.
That's a little scary. You seem to know a lot of wrong dudes.
>> >They figured that we'd put up with the Griefers, and they could
>> >make money from them.
>>
>> Maybe by selling cheats and bugged gear to them, but certainly not by
>> selling more copies of the game to them. Griefers and PKs are
>> cheaters by nature.
>
>LOL, it's funny to read PKs justifying their actions because all PvM players
>are item scanning, chicken using, cheaters. They claim that the cheater
>mentality is inherent in PvMers, and they are just teaching these scum a
>lesson.
Well, criminals come up with some pretty funny rationalizations for
what they do, too. It's part of the criminal mentality.
>Cheating and PK/PvM are separate issues. Both PKs and PvMers have people who
>cheat and those who play honestly.
True.
>So making broad generalizations just
>shows your argument as fluff.
Nonsense. There are such things as statistical truths.
>> Sure. But that's _despite_ their stupidity in catering to PK
>> cheaters, not because of it. They would have sold more copies if PKs
>> were not making Bnet such a cesspool.
>>
>> The plain fact is, anyone who just wants to play D@ in SP or TCP/IP
>> games doesn't have to buy the game. There are lots of pirate versions
>> around. You only have to buy it if you want to play on the realms.
>> But if griefers scare people off the realms -- and there is little
>> doubt that they do -- those people have that much less motive to buy
>> the game.
>
>I still don't believe there are (m)any people who have not bought the game
>solely due to the PK implementation. But even so, your argument is only
>valid if B-net was a pay per play system. Where you make more money by
>keeping people paying. But with DII/LoD they only get your money once
>(each).
True. Blizzard's motive to keep its Bnet customers satisfied is very
attenuated, if it exists at all.
>So whether you play B-net never, once, constantly means little to
>them. Blizzard is a business, and business means maximizing profits.
Nonsense. Lots of business decisions are made by people who are not
shareholders, and have no real interest in maximizing their employer's
profits. Anyone who was worked in business knows that.
>> >As far as the cheaters go, it's just a matter of priorities and
>resources.
>> >At this point DII/LoD is low priority and very limited resources.
>>
>> Which is _really_stupid_ considering it is probably still outselling
>> all their other games combined.
>
>Really, I find that hard to believe. I mean you see that whole Diablo combo
>pack (D/DII/LoD) in the bargain bins.
Not here, you don't. It would be interesting to see some revenue
breakdown figures for Blizzard.
>> ??? HC is such a small part of the game because
>> _people_hate_being_cheated_out_of_their_chars_and_items_by_PK_filth_,
>> and stay away from HC on that account.
>
>People stay away from HC because they cannot accept losing their
>character/items, period. That is why HC is small.
I can accept losing chars and items to monsters _far_ better than
losing them to PK filth -- and I have certainly lost a lot more of
them to the latter than the former. I don't think I am very different
from other players.
>> I'd been soloing the WSK for a while, then a druid entered, I partied,
>> then a whole bunch of people entered and partied. And I hadn't heard
>> of the BS cheat, as it was only released the day before.
>
>Whenever someone enters the game always read their character and account
>names.
Assuming you are not fighting and can read the screen well enough to
even see that someone has joined....
>> >I don't get too close to ANY one. And a Necro using BS in a hell party
>should
>> >have set off your spider sense.
>>
>> He joined, he partied, he arrived, he killed me, all in about 5
>> seconds.
>
>Quite careless on your part I must say, if he was able to PK you within 5
>seconds of joining the game.
?? Garbage. I was _fighting_. Hello? There were fireworks all over
the screen. I didn't even know he had joined until I saw the "deeds"
screen.
>> What I have learned from being PKed by at least half a dozen different
>> cheats is that Blizzard _wants_ vandals to make cheats, and the only
>> way not to be killed by them is to play only in passworded games, and
>> only with people you know. Bye-bye Bnet.
>
>Without a subscription service, it is impossible to maintain a game hack
>proof. I'm not a programmer and even _I_ know that.
Of course, there will always be ways to write hacks like bots, etc. --
basically, anything that can be done from the player side will be.
But it would be _trivially_easy_ to stop the PK cheats once and for
all, and Blizzard just has no interest whatever in doing so. None.
>Yet you attribute it to
>a conspiracy.
It's not so much a conspiracy as a decision to enable.
>> Right. Blizzard made a deliberate, conscious decision to make these
>> cheats available for the convenience of PK filth. Like I said.
>
>Blizzard has a proven track record for incompetence, so I think that is a
>much more likely explanation. But OK, I'll play the conspiracy game. So just
>who is behind it? It would have to be someone pretty high up, not just some
>grunt programmer. But hey, everyone with any power at Blizzard has quit over
>the last few years. Hmmm, so who is the mystery man?
I would say it was whoever decided to use town hostiling rather than a
damage delay to make PvP "fair."
>And wouldn't they have
>had to direct underlings on leaving these PK cheat loopholes in the game?
Once the basic decision is made, the loopholes are there
automatically. It's just a question of finding them.
>I think the more ominous implications of this go far beyond trigger hack. If
>the BM weenies were capable of writing a successful script, what else is out
>there. It's only a small step to the next generation of shopbot, pindlebot,
>cowbot, followbot, ... The clean realms and fresh start of the ladder are
>done. RIP
I must unfortunately concur.
-- Roy L
Mark
> But why would GAT need such a rule (no using the hostile button in GAT
> games) in the first place? Is this an admission that they are not playing
> the game as it was intended?
GAT (Green Assed Team) started as an untwinked Paladin team (hence the green
ass). People had so much fun they decided to expand it and form a playing
group for co-op only play. So when you play with GAT, you play co-op. PK is
not co-op, so you don't do that in GAT games. I guess it's kind of like a
church member going to a strip club. I'd never think about stuffing money
down a young girl's pants in church, but down at the Cricket Lounge ...
> Why should they be upset about a GAT member - playing the game as it was
> intended - slaughtering an entire GAT party during a questing game?
If PKing were allowed in GAT games, the PKs would still never kill anyone. I
have far too much respect for some of their skill, that I'd never be any
where but town if they were in the game.
Or more
> simply, why is it okay for them to disrupt someone else's game, but it's
not
> okay to disrupt one of their games? (Not pointing out just GAT, but any
> co-op group that feels a need for this rule.)
That was my big dilemma, and why I quit playing with any known PKs.
> The continuous PK assaults was one of the reasons I quit playing HC. I was
> never an easy target, but there was always this ever-present feeling of
> mistrust in many of the games,
That was one of the reasons Blizzard gave for PK. To add that element of
fear and danger. I don't like it, but you have to admit, that atmosphere is
there.
Whitedog
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032a84f...@news.telus.net...
I think its a safe assumption to say the guy is far from an honorable
player, I wouldn't waste my breath with the him (TBA). While I don't agree
with your original post's conspiracy theory, it had some good points, and it
was hardly annoying. It also started one of the biggest threads I've seen
in awhile. I can't see how that isn't a good thing. You started one hell
of a debate, and anytime people are talking constructively about an issue,
it has to positive.
In my opinion, there is no justification for PKing. It is simple a way for
players to disrupt the playing experience of others, and it shouldn't be
aloud. Yes, the moron that is doing it may be enjoying himself, but the
people they are harassing certainly are not. There is no doubt in my mind
that if a survey was taken of everyone that used bnet with the question
being "Would you support changes to the game that would eliminate PKing,
without preventing dueling?" I believe it would be an overwhelming majority
in favor of such a measure. Why blizzard puts up with it, especially in hc,
I don't know. Maybe you're conspiracy theory is right, and its because bliz
employees enjoy being the prick.
As far as TBA's statement that there is legitimate PKers, I guess that
depends on your definition of legitimate. Only once have a seen a PKer go
hostile with everyone in a game, and I have never ever encountered a PKer
that wasn't at least 15 to 20 levels above the players they were harassing.
I only play sc, mainly because of PKers, so I don't encounter as many hacks
as you would in hc, but I've run into plenty of cheap tricks.
tcells
>
snip
>
> Amongst the HC dueling community, Maphack's item scan it the most
despised.
> For the legit HC PKs, it's Chickenhack. Seroius traders hate dupes. But I
> agree, most co-op PvM only players hate PKs most.
perhaps only those who play mainly in normal and NM, I'd expect the majority
of those who spend most of their time in hell would say cheap IM and cheap
gloams are far worse a problem than PKs (I'm assuming you deliberately left
HC out of that category to generalise ascross HC & SC).
B.B.
>On 17 Feb 2004 20:10:51 GMT, Dave Ryan <dr...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>>While pondering glazed doughnuts ro...@telus.net mistakenly typed
>>:
>>: On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:39:13 -0800, LineNoise <line...@pobox.com>
>>: wrote:
[...]
>>:>>>I am a little kid, and I talk like and adult...
>>:>>
>>:>>No, you don't. You are either a little kid, or an adult trying to
>>:>>talk like one.
>>:>
>>:>And you're either an ass, or a normal person trying very hard to behave
>>:>like one. So?
>>:
>>: I'm right. Deal with it.
>>
>>So is LineNoise.
>
>No, he isn't.
>
>>Do you have a point?
>
>Do you have a brain?
>
>-- Roy L
Not that I'm trying to wade into the flamewar here, but you are being
kind of a jerk. Perhaps you should take a break from this thread for a
bit to calm yourself down?
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail.net
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/Iraq-LIES/LIES/britt.gif
tcells
"David Carson" <da...@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
> Whitedog wrote:
> > What exactly is a legitimate non-dueling use for hostility?
>
> Throwing Shock Webs at your friends' feet to exploit the NextDelay bug
> and make them immune to various monster attacks? :-)
>
nice try but that's bug exploitation ;)
But along your vein of thought - a necro paladin pairing wringing the heck
out of auras and curses by hostiling would fit.
tcells
>
> <ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031ce8a...@news.telus.net...
> > True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
> > _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
> > welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
>
> Uhh not, not more likely. I kill other people in Unreal Tournament, that
> doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels in
> D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
> Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood,
it
> doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
>
> crimes.
>
> WTF? You know a lot of people who can run around casting bone spirits,
> fireballs, and blessed hammers do ya? And they all have access to
waypoints
> and town portals, too?
>
On Saturday, I chased a snake while weilding a shovel, does that count?
Marshall
"short" <sho...@zoominternet.net> wrote in message news:c0t4v0$1bivf7$1...@ID-160707.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> It's about time you popped back in here!
>
> How have you been??
I never left, I just don't post very often. Way too much on-topic stuff
around here, these days ;-) But I've got too many good years invested
in this place, to just up and hit the 'unsub' button.
Been playing a lot of IL-2:FB lately, it's got me pretty well corralled up.
Doubt I'll be spending 4+ years with it like I did with D1/D2/LoD, but
there's an expansion pack coming out for it in March, and I'm sure
that'll tide me on into spring, when hopefully Doom3 and Half-Life2 will
mosey into the picture.
But I read bits and pieces here every day, and keep an eye on you, short-
somebody has to! How's the li'l hellion doing, these days? Got 'im trained
to hit the 'drink potion' buttons for you, yet? <g>
Marshall
> wrote:
>
> ><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4031101a...@news.telus.net...
> >> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:51:14 -0500, Rast <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> PKs are not a significant issue in SC, because they know they can't
> >> really hurt you. So very few people bother to PK in SC. Only HC
> >> attracts the truly evil individuals whose enjoyment comes from
> >> inflicting suffering on others. The desire to destroy what others
> >> have built is the infallible mark of a subhuman, criminal mentality,
> >> and HC PKs are essentially evil, vicious, subhuman criminals.
> >
> >But isn't it better that they take out their aggression in the game instead
> >of torturing small animals or becoming a serial killer?
>
> True. If we could be sure that killing HC chars was really
> _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
> welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
> doesn't function as a rehearsal for real crimes.
And then there is the (doubtless) large number of those griefers who would
*never* have the 'nads to even shoplift a pack of gum, let alone commit any
real crimes in RL... yet who cream their crusted shorts every time they can
kill somebody's HC char and bring pain and suffering onto someone else.
Sometimes the anonymity and unaccountability of the internet just pisses
me off. Someday that will change, or the griefer types will always rule the roost,
which is unacceptable to my sense of justice. And I doubt I'm alone on that.
the wild lawless west only lasted a short time, in historical reality... I'm sure
the raw, lawless unaccountability of the net will have its fateful day in the
OK Corral, eventually. Can't come soon enough, IMO.
-Marshall
Marshall
> > _substituting_ for committing real crimes, I would say OK, you're
> > welcome to it. But more likely, they are committing real crimes
>
> doesn't mean I kill people in real life. I challenge strangers to duels in
> D2, it doesn't mean I challenge real people to duels. I play a vampire in
> Legacy of Kain who goes around murdering people and drinking their blood, it
> doesn't mean *I* go around murdering people and drinking their blood.
>
> crimes.
>
> fireballs, and blessed hammers do ya? And they all have access to waypoints
> and town portals, too?
I believe he was referring to the griefers who deliberately murder HC chars
for fun, not to your average Joe-blow D2 player.
-Marshall
TBA
"Whitedog" <jro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:dPyYb.13234$aH3.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> <ro...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:4032a84f...@news.telus.net...
> > On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:22:53 -0600, "TBA" <gkamm...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > ><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:40325cf4...@news.telus.net...
[snip]
>
> I think its a safe assumption to say the guy is far from an honorable
> player, I wouldn't waste my breath with the him (TBA).
While I certainly disagreed with royls assertion that Blizzard is behind the
PK hacks, and his general view of PKing, I most certainly never called his
"honor" or his "character" into question.
I have lost several HC characters to PK's, some legit but most with hacks.
However, I knew full well going in that dying at the hands of a PK was a
possibility, or more likely a probability. Yes, it made me angry when a
cheater got me, but usually that only strengthened my resolve to be more
aware. Finaly it got too much and I quit playing public HC games. There
were plenty of friends to play with at the time, anyway. Sure, it sucks to
have your hand forced, but life goes on. I merely meant to point out that
PKing does have a place in the game, and if it upset royls so much that
there were options to consider. I didn't mean to imply that he would like
the options.
> While I don't agree
> with your original post's conspiracy theory, it had some good points, and
it
> was hardly annoying.
This is a point that I disagree with. Yes, I admit it is good to get a
lively discussion going, as this thread is certainly evidence of. However,
one plays the hand dealt to them. Blizzard has proved time and again that
they are unwilling to devote the resources to fixing these problems,
therefore one enters the realms at their own risk. If you play HC, being
taken out by a PK is a risk one accepts. It DOES NOT MATTER how you feel
about it. Therefore, to get PK'd and then complain is annoying, to me at
least. (okay, so maybe others aren't annoyed, maybe some are). It certainly
sounds like whining though.
> It also started one of the biggest threads I've seen
> in awhile. I can't see how that isn't a good thing. You started one hell
> of a debate, and anytime people are talking constructively about an issue,
> it has to positive.
>
> In my opinion, there is no justification for PKing. It is simple a way
for
> players to disrupt the playing experience of others, and it shouldn't be
> aloud.
Big disagree here. First of all, as it is set up now, I will agree that
PKing is a joke. That does NOT mean there is no place for it. Just because
I am in favor of PKing doesn't mean that 1) I PK people (never, never have I
PK'd anyone) and 2) that I think PKing by cheating is acceptable, which of
course it isn't. Assuming we live in a perfect world (ha) where there are
no hacks or duping or trade scams, how is PKing a bad thing? Since when is
Blizzard obligated to implement features that meet with everyone's approval?
You say PKing disrupts the enjoyment of the game? Then maybe you need to
rethink your tactics. Blizzard has been emphatic in their support of PKing,
so, as I mentioned above, you enter the realms at your own risk. Seriously,
if it is that big of a negative issue with the "PKing is bad" crowd, then
perhaps a different game is in order. My personal view is that few wolves
are always good for the flock.
> Yes, the moron that is doing it may be enjoying himself, but the
> people they are harassing certainly are not. There is no doubt in my mind
> that if a survey was taken of everyone that used bnet with the question
> being "Would you support changes to the game that would eliminate PKing,
> without preventing dueling?" I believe it would be an overwhelming
majority
> in favor of such a measure. Why blizzard puts up with it, especially in
hc,
> I don't know. Maybe you're conspiracy theory is right, and its because
bliz
> employees enjoy being the prick.
>
> As far as TBA's statement that there is legitimate PKers, I guess that
> depends on your definition of legitimate.
It is true that the legitimate PKer is a vanishing breed these days. To be
honest, I hardly play anymore, but I remember the days when a PK hostile was
a challenge! Something that really got the blood flowing. Do I stand and
fight? Run away? What level is he? What character? Several of my friends
back then were into PKing, and I can honestly and truthfuly say they were
legitimate. Their motto was "Time to stir the flock!". They would even
announce their intentions once they entered the game! There was real honor
in it, back then at least.
I know this isn't what royls is referring to, but having been a part of the
old days I will admit that I'm biased towards being in favor of PKing. As
it is now, it's a joke. This game was a joke before 1.10.
I do sympathize with royls, I really do. I just don't buy the conspiracy
thing, and I'd rather see him keep his chin up and forge ahead instead of
whining about it. There are far worse things wrong with BNet than PKing, in
a big picture sort of way.
I guess whether I'm honorable or not depends on how you define it, hmm?
-gk-
jerk-o
>I think there are loads of solutions that bliz could have implemented other
>than weakened rules on hostility to solve your problem. The one I think
>would work best is giving the person that creates a game, whether its pw or
>not, the ability to kick/ban people from the game. Takes care of the whole
>problem with no risk of PKers.
Another solution would be to have the ablility to turn hostility off when creating a game
--
no, i didn't forget the 'F's
I'm the one and only Asian troll
-Steven Ung
http://www.geocities.com/jerk_o2002
http://www.geocities.com/nameless_mod
-My 1.10 Diablo 2 Mod
patriarch jerk-o clvl 99 necromancer LOD/AR
patriarch Lombar-Hisst clvl 99 barbarian AR
matriarch jessica clvl 99 sorceress AR
Guardian yodaddy clvl 99 necromancer HC AR
Guardian the_man clvl 99 necromancer HC Gemstone
patriarch IAmTheLaw Clvl 94 necromancer
patriarch moonshadow clvl 93 necromancer
Shiflet
"Whitedog" <jro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:dPyYb.13234$aH3.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
used bnet with the question being "Would you support changes to the game
that would eliminate PKing,
> without preventing dueling?" I believe it would be an overwhelming
majority
> in favor of such a measure.
What makes you think that? That same question has been asked on both the
Lurker Lounge and Dii.net forums(both of which get far more traffic than
this group), and the opinion was about a 50/50 split.
> As far as TBA's statement that there is legitimate PKers, I guess that
> depends on your definition of legitimate. Only once have a seen a PKer go
> hostile with everyone in a game, and I have never ever encountered a PKer
> that wasn't at least 15 to 20 levels above the players they were
harassing.
I have. In fact, my lvl 91 has been hostiled by characters in the 70's.
Shiflet
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:4032a84f...@news.telus.net...
> More than 90% of PKs cheat. Maybe more than 99%.
Oh that is COMPLETE crap. Seriously, you keep pulling these ludicrous
figures out of your rear, and each one makes your arguement more absurd.
> Then they should have used a hostile damage delay instead of their
> stupid town-hostile cheat-enabling system.
What they should do is just make it so that whenever someone goes hostile,
EVERYTHING they have cast disappears. Summons are dispelled, hammers/bone
spirits/traps/hydras/arrows dissappear, Energy Shield/TStorm/Fade/BoS/Holy
Shield/Warcries/etc are deactivated and must be recast, etc.
> The fact that you say that demonstrates just how rare they are.
Except they AREN'T that rare. I've seen LOTS of them. Yes, there are PKers
who cheat, just like there are PvM characters who cheat. But it's NOWHERE
NEAR 90 percent.
> -- Roy L
Shiflet
"tcells" <tce...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0uent$1bqlju$1...@ID-200302.news.uni-berlin.de...
> perhaps only those who play mainly in normal and NM, I'd expect the
majority
> of those who spend most of their time in hell would say cheap IM and cheap
> gloams are far worse a problem than PKs (I'm assuming you deliberately
left
> HC out of that category to generalise ascross HC & SC).
That certainly matches what I've heard too, but Roy apparently lives in a
world where everyone under the sun who's not a PKer considers PKers to be as
bad as Hitler, Saddam and Osama rolled into one, where every single PKer
uses cheat and hacks and steals and rapes and murders.
Shiflet
> On Saturday, I chased a snake while weilding a shovel, does that count?
Only if once you caught it you either hit it 5 times really fast, inflicted
magic damage when you hit it, or boosted your defense by swinging it.
Mark
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:51:34 GMT, "Mark" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> It is by far the _biggest_ problem for almost _all_ HC players,
> guaranteed.
Unless you can provide some information to back up your claim, we'll have to
agree to disagree.
> Utter garbage. Some of the top HC ladder chars have fallen to PK
> cheats. These are most definitely _not_ careless or reckless folks.
I think it was the #2 character on the Europe HC ladder, a L97 Barb who was
PKd by the WP exploit. He admitted he got careless in the mind numbing Baal
runs. Just like any other threat in the game, PKs are their deadliest when
we get complacent.
> That's a known PK hangout.
Sure, there are folks that PK there, but far from a majority. But it is a HC
strategy forum, and the moderator does an excellent job of keeping the
peace. PKing IS a legitimate part of the game, so no flaming. But I'm glad
there are PKs there. I get information, about how they work and how they
build. I heard about the BM trigger on Saturday. And I think it has helped
me avoid PKs. I've only lost my ear 3 times. My nemesis is a dial up
connection, I've lost dozens of characters to lag/desynch/disconnects.
> >Let me talk to one person, one single person, who did not buy DII/LoD
> >because of the PK issue.
>
> You're talkin' to him.
You bought the game. You're talking about a second copy. It's good enough
the first helping, but seconds aren't worth it? I'm sure Blizzards marketing
department is quaking in their boots.
> That's a little scary. You seem to know a lot of wrong dudes.
Yep, I hooked in with a great group of people. Great co-op players, highly
skilled, honest and extremely generous. Then a couple months later I found
out a lot of them were PKs. I don't play with them any more, but I certainly
know that your generalization that all PKs are sociopathic criminals is
ridiculous.
> Well, criminals come up with some pretty funny rationalizations for
> what they do, too. It's part of the criminal mentality.
Actually, I was trying to show a 'pot calling the kettle black' type of
thing by showing that both sides are using the same argument.
> Nonsense. There are such things as statistical truths.
But you were the one who just said:
> Whatever. It's my impression.
Now you want statistical truth? Me and others are giving contrary examples
to your statements. Unsupported statements. And you want statistical truth
from me? LOL
> >So whether you play B-net never, once, constantly means little to
> >them. Blizzard is a business, and business means maximizing profits.
>
> Nonsense. Lots of business decisions are made by people who are not
> shareholders, and have no real interest in maximizing their employer's
> profits. Anyone who was worked in business knows that.
Sometimes you invest now to reap higher profits later. Unfortunately in
business today, too many decisions are made for the short term. But
regardless, if you are not doing everything you can to maximize profits for
your employer, you're not doing your job.
> >Really, I find that hard to believe. I mean you see that whole Diablo
combo
> >pack (D/DII/LoD) in the bargain bins.
>
> Not here, you don't. It would be interesting to see some revenue
> breakdown figures for Blizzard.
I remember seeing it for $39.99 for the three games over Christmas. I'll get
one for you if you want.
> I can accept losing chars and items to monsters _far_ better than
> losing them to PK filth -- and I have certainly lost a lot more of
> them to the latter than the former. I don't think I am very different
> from other players.
I've lost a LOT of HC characters (97.9 highest). I'd say my losses were due
to :
Stupidity/Over aggression
Lag/Desynch/Disconnects
MK (dirty TPs, etc.)
PK (3)
> >Whenever someone enters the game always read their character and account
> >names.
>
> Assuming you are not fighting and can read the screen well enough to
> even see that someone has joined....
>
> >> >I don't get too close to ANY one. And a Necro using BS in a hell party
> >should
> >> >have set off your spider sense.
> >>
> >> He joined, he partied, he arrived, he killed me, all in about 5
> >> seconds.
> >
> >Quite careless on your part I must say, if he was able to PK you within 5
> >seconds of joining the game.
>
> ?? Garbage. I was _fighting_. Hello? There were fireworks all over
> the screen. I didn't even know he had joined until I saw the "deeds"
> screen.
As a L85 Sorc, you're and alpha predator in the DII world. There are only a
few things that are a real threat to you. Mainly nasty boss's and PKs.
Everyone learns to read a boss's mods before engaging (at least those who
play HC for very long). Why do you treat it any differently whenever a
potential PK arrives? As a minimum you should know their names, class, and
level. Many times these can signal trouble. Yet you just ignore them? And
then complain that Blizzard is arming cheater PKs? Like I keep saying, learn
and you can avoid a lot of trouble. Your mistake was not respecting your
enemy. You thought the battle at hand was more dangerous than the newly
arrived potential PK. When a quick peek at their information would have
saved you. Additionally, you didn't watch for their approach so as to keep
an obstructed LOS. In other words, you were perfectly protected against
monsters, but left yourself wide open to a PK. It sucks to die to a cheater,
but you could have done a LOT more to increase your chances.
> >Yet you attribute it to
> >a conspiracy.
>
> It's not so much a conspiracy as a decision to enable.
<SNIP>
> I would say it was whoever decided to use town hostiling rather than a
> damage delay to make PvP "fair."
From the start Blizzard said that there would be nonconsensual PvP in DII.
Beyond that, I don't think they consciously favor one side or the other. The
PK crowd squealed mightily when the town delay was implemented ('the sky is
falling'). So both sides are unhappy that the other side is given the
advantage.
As far as the holes and the exploits, I think they can all fall into the
oversight and/or error category.
I do like your damage delay idea for PvP implementation. That seems like it
would work well. Unfortunately it is almost 4 years too late. It's easy now
to question a design, and assume an easy fix.. But even so, I guarantee that
in 3.5 years your damage delay system would have all it's flaws revealed and
exploited as well.
> Once the basic decision is made, the loopholes are there
> automatically. It's just a question of finding them.
You seem to agree.
Mark
"Marshall" <Mars...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eGzYb.8193$tL3....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> And then there is the (doubtless) large number of those griefers who would
> *never* have the 'nads to even shoplift a pack of gum, let alone commit
any
> real crimes in RL... yet who cream their crusted shorts every time they
can
> kill somebody's HC char and bring pain and suffering onto someone else.
> Sometimes the anonymity and unaccountability of the internet just pisses
> me off. Someday that will change, or the griefer types will always rule
the roost,
> which is unacceptable to my sense of justice. And I doubt I'm alone on
that.
> the wild lawless west only lasted a short time, in historical reality...
I'm sure
> the raw, lawless unaccountability of the net will have its fateful day in
the
> OK Corral, eventually. Can't come soon enough, IMO.
I've always said that the biggest problem with the internet was that there
was no 'punch someone in the nose' button. Stuff they'd never have the guts
to say to your face is common. No accountability breeds chaos.
Stephen R. Marsh
>and make them immune to various monster attacks? :-)
Ok, tell me about that one.
Stephen
http://adrr.com/hero/diablo.htm
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