Gimmershred builds
Stephen van Ham
Gimmershred
Flying Axe
Throw Damage: (39-46) To (171-204) (105-125 Avg)
One-Hand Damage: (44-52) To (169-201) (106.5-126.5 Avg)
Required Level: 70
Required Strength: 88
Required Dexterity: 108
Base Weapon Speed: [10]
Max Stack: (240)
+160-210% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 218-483 Fire Damage
Adds 29-501 Lightning Damage
Adds 176-397 Cold Damage, 4 sec. Duration (Normal)
+30% Increased Attack Speed
Increased Stack Size [60]
(Only Spawns In Patch 1.10 or later)
Okay, I have a couple of these on season 2 ladder, and am currently
pondering a character or two built around them. I have a few ideas,
such as a rebuild of my conviction zealot from season 1 (who had poor
gear and yet turned out to be one of my more enjoyable characters), a
throwing barbarian (mine last season never got a chance to play with
some gimmers, alas), or a blade fury assassin, to name just three.
Does anyone have another gimmershred-using build that they have a soft
spot for? A frenzy/throw hybrid barb is another that's come up in
conversation. How about a enchant/throw sorceress with pumped up
cold and lightning mastery?
Thanks.
Mark
"Stephen van Ham" <sva...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ho4aj09824cghq3bn...@4ax.com...
> How about a enchant/throw sorceress with pumped up
> cold and lightning mastery?
Masteries only apply for melee.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>
>"Stephen van Ham" <sva...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:ho4aj09824cghq3bn...@4ax.com...
>> How about a enchant/throw sorceress with pumped up
>> cold and lightning mastery?
>
>Masteries only apply for melee.
Okay, a bit of a revision then. I had a look around, and here:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=48816
Adeyke indicates that cold mastery works for ranged, at least. Now
I'm confused. :-)
Last2Know
Gimmershred is also good for Assy-kickers. And it
does enough elemental damage to make the Fury Werewolf
a superior build to the Zealot (can be used for either
main weapon or weapon switch against PIs).
Oliver Wenzel
Stephen van Ham <sva...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in
news:ho4aj09824cghq3bn...@4ax.com:
>
> Gimmershred
> Flying Axe
>
[stats snipped]
>
> Okay, I have a couple of these on season 2 ladder, and am currently
> pondering a character or two built around them. I have a few ideas,
> such as a rebuild of my conviction zealot from season 1 (who had poor
> gear and yet turned out to be one of my more enjoyable characters), a
> throwing barbarian (mine last season never got a chance to play with
> some gimmers, alas), or a blade fury assassin, to name just three.
> Does anyone have another gimmershred-using build that they have a soft
> spot for? A frenzy/throw hybrid barb is another that's come up in
> conversation. How about a enchant/throw sorceress with pumped up
> cold and lightning mastery?
I'm currently building a SP throwbarb as I found a GimmerShred some time
ago. He's level 64 now in Act5 NM, the GS is about level 70.
But its a barb with a twist, as he only uses the BO war cry. All other
crowd control comes from Darksight Helm with CoS. Other equipment is a
STONE armor, HONOR axe and Crescent Moon axe, razortail belt, goblin toe
boots and a SoJ.
So he has two axes and on the switch to throwing axes - The Scalper.
Skill points go to:
Axe Mastery 6, Throwing M. 12, Double Swing 12, Double Throw 12,
Natural Res 5, BO 10, all others at 1 or 0.
So, he can teleport (amu with 25 charges, +11 res all), has a Clay golem
(level 14) and a HF merc. Res are 75 all.
I dunno if he will survive in hell, but as its only SP, I don't fear the
IM problem..
And just for the fun of it, I've socketed the Darksight Helm with a rare
jewel, so he now gives +53 fire res, +7 all other res and 9-15 fire
damage. As soon as I find a better rare jewel, I'll put that one in.
Regards,
Oliver
Craig
Interesting, I was thinking about some for PI's on my wolf, didn't consider
the possibility of using them as the main weapon, would need to pump dex
quite a bit though or else the sheild would be purely for decoration
(currently 50 dex at lvl 67) block is below 20% on my buffing gear
Craig
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Shiflet
"Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.09.01....@yahoo.com...
> And it does enough elemental damage to make the Fury Werewolf
> a superior build to the Zealot
OOC, why would it make them better? A zealot can use Gimmers as easily as a
wolf can, afterall. Additionally, a zealot with no outside IAS will be
hitting 5 fpa with it and with some effort, can hit 4 fpa(53 non weapon IAS
needed with lvl 20 fana, so 20 gloves, 20 highlords, and a 15 IAS jewel
somewhere works), whereas a wolf will only be hitting 7 fpa, max(which is
too slow IMO, 4 fpa is important to me, 5 is okay, and 6 is just barely
tolerable). And the zealot's fanatacism will allow him to throw them more
effectively as well for a ranged strike, an option the druid really doesn't
have. Finally, if the zealot has a point in conviction(several do), it can
be used to boost the elemental damage dealt, handy for those PIs, which is
another option the druid doesn't have(and if the pally has 20 ias from
somewhere, Highlords for instance even without fana he'd STILL be hitting
faster than the druid, at 6 fpa). Add in the pally's most likely higher
def(thanks to HS), and, well, the zealot pretty much has the wolf beat in
every regard except life(assuming the druid is using oak sage) and
*possibly* run speed(though zealots can charge run of course, and there's
the possibilty of vigor, too).
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.01....@yahoo.com...
>
>> And it does enough elemental damage to make the Fury Werewolf
>> a superior build to the Zealot
>
> OOC, why would it make them better? A zealot can use Gimmers as easily as a
> wolf can, afterall.
Because the wolf has important strengths that the zealot lacks -
way more vitality from lycanthropy, oak sage, and carrion vine,
and several minions for decoys. The only real weakness of the
Fury wolf is dealing with PIs, and with a weapon like Gimmershred
on switch, PIs are not a problem. I found that this build could
solo easily with Demon's Arch on switch and Gimmershred would
be even better.
Last2Know
I think that a shield is usually the way to go for a wolf in 1.10,
but Gimmershred is not the ideal main weapon because Fury speed depends
mainly on weapon speed, only a little on other IAS, and Gimmers can't
be shaeled. Even so, I don't think a wolf using them as main weapon and
getting some crushing blow from somewhere else wouldn't have any
problem soloing the game which is more than can be said for many
other builds.
Regarding shield, high blocking is helpful mainly against groups
of archers, while max resistance is important everywhere. Attack
speed and crushing blow are very important, while the difference
in physical damage between a good one handed and a good two handed
weapon is less so. Stormlash is the ideal here, but I had a good build
using Horizon's Tornado and a "Black" Scourge would also be decent
(in the case of Stormlash and the Tornado, the Tornado's they
emit can be synergized by Cyclone Armor).
ro...@telus.net
<sva...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>I have a few ideas,
>such as a rebuild of my conviction zealot from season 1 (who had poor
>gear and yet turned out to be one of my more enjoyable characters), a
>throwing barbarian (mine last season never got a chance to play with
>some gimmers, alas), or a blade fury assassin, to name just three.
My wife loves to make throwbarbs using Gimmers, and her current one is
clevel 90, HC ladder. He easily kills anything but Dclone (and even
he fell last night, through judicious use of CB items and Laying of
Hands; the anni is 18-14-8).
-- Roy L
Shiflet
> Because the wolf has important strengths that the zealot lacks -
> way more vitality from lycanthropy, oak sage, and carrion vine,
And a zealot with leech does just find without those, plus he'll be
hitting(and thus killing, and leeching) a whole lot faster.
> and several minions for decoys.
Which a good zealot doesn't even need.
> The only real weakness of the Fury wolf is dealing with PIs,
And the zealot doesn't even have that weakness, even without Gimmers-and of
course, they do both have the problem of iron maiden, but using Gimmers, the
zealot can effectively throw if he gets IMed, whereas the wolf can't. And
all the extra life won't save you if you get hit with IM in mid zeal/fury.
> I found that this build could solo easily with Demon's Arch on switch and
Gimmershred would
> be even better.
My zealot can easily solo too, and that's without minions or oak.
Stephen van Ham
Thanks for the responses, all. I'm going to continue pondering for a
bit.
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.01....@yahoo.com...
>
>> Because the wolf has important strengths that the zealot lacks -
>> way more vitality from lycanthropy, oak sage, and carrion vine,
>
> And a zealot with leech does just find without those, plus he'll be
> hitting(and thus killing, and leeching) a whole lot faster.
Any char can be strong with good enough gear, but
having lots of vitality makes it much, much easier.
Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with
reasonable gear, so the difference in speed is
not dramatic.
>> and several minions for decoys.
>
> Which a good zealot doesn't even need.
>
>> The only real weakness of the Fury wolf is dealing with PIs,
>
> And the zealot doesn't even have that weakness, even without Gimmers-and of
> course, they do both have the problem of iron maiden, but using Gimmers, the
> zealot can effectively throw if he gets IMed, whereas the wolf can't.
You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy
to keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they
always curse the nearest target.
>> I found that this build could solo easily with Demon's Arch on switch and
> Gimmershred would
>> be even better.
>
> My zealot can easily solo too, and that's without minions or oak.
At the same quality level of gear, the Zealot will be more of
a challenge and die sooner, to a Fire Enchanted monster, or
a Stygian doll, or something else like that.
Shiflet
> Any char can be strong with good enough gear, but
> having lots of vitality makes it much, much easier.
With decent leech(very easily attainable), lots of vitality doesn't really
do much at all though, which was the point.
> Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with
> reasonable gear, so the difference in speed is
> not dramatic.
A paladin can get 5 fpa with decent weapons dropped in freebie games, and
without much effort, can hit 4 fpa as well. And yes, this difference IS
dramatic, try dropping from 5 to 4, or going up from 4 and 5, and tell me
you don't notice a signifigant difference...
> You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
> doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy
> to keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they
> always curse the nearest target.
And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't typically
be so far away that you don't get cursed as well, as they aren't gonna go
around the enemies you're fighting to attack the knights.
> At the same quality level of gear, the Zealot will be more of
> a challenge and die sooner, to a Fire Enchanted monster, or
> a Stygian doll, or something else like that.
FE? Your zealots have problems with FE enemies? I'm assuming you mean in
hell, and not NM(cause of the bug that 1 hit kills even barbs with 4k life),
in which case, I seriously question your zealot playing abilities, as I
consider FE a blessing, as it's pretty much a joke, especially compared to
some of the other mods that can spawn. Seriously, since the FE bug was fixed
in hell, NO character has come anywhere close to dying from it...do you
really consider FE something to fear? Dolls are no problem either, let the
merc handle 'em if you can't survive it(not to mention I can take a couple
death explosions as it, in case one gets too close and I gotta ace 'em
myself)
Mark
"Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10jdor4...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't
typically
> be so far away that you don't get cursed as well, as they aren't gonna go
> around the enemies you're fighting to attack the knights.
A shapeshifter doesn't let his minion(s) walk up to an enemy, you cast one
ahead right on an OK for example to keep them tied up till you can cut your
way to them. That's the beauty of a druids summons, as opposed to a Necro,
he doesn't need anything to summon from so you can sling them left, center
and right. If you wait around till your Grizzly lumbers up to an enemy,
you're not playing them correctly.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
Last2Know
> news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
> > Any char can be strong with good enough gear, but
> > having lots of vitality makes it much, much easier.
>
> With decent leech(very easily attainable), lots of vitality doesn't really
> do much at all though, which was the point.
Well I categorically disagree with that point. In
my understanding of the game, lots more vitality is
*always* very helpful. It trades off against everything
else including gear and stat point allocation.
> > Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with
> > reasonable gear, so the difference in speed is
> > not dramatic.
>
> A paladin can get 5 fpa with decent weapons dropped in freebie games, and
> without much effort, can hit 4 fpa as well. And yes, this difference IS
> dramatic, try dropping from 5 to 4, or going up from 4 and 5, and tell me
> you don't notice a signifigant difference...
It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the
extra life and extra decoys - outweigh it. A character
that attacks even faster than the Zealot with a comparable
amount of vitality is Assy builds based around Dragon Talon.
They are offensively stronger than the wolf, but also die
easier because of less vitality.
> > You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
> > doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy
> > to keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they
> > always curse the nearest target.
>
> And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't typically
> be so far away that you don't get cursed as well,
As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special
areas, so there is nothing typical about the way an melee
build is played in those areas. It is easy for the Druid
to cast the minions out in front whenever needed, and it
is also easy for every character to run forward and then
backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
> > At the same quality level of gear, the Zealot will be more of
> > a challenge and die sooner, to a Fire Enchanted monster, or
> > a Stygian doll, or something else like that.
>
> FE? Your zealots have problems with FE enemies? I'm assuming you mean in
> hell, and not NM(cause of the bug that 1 hit kills even barbs with 4k life),
> in which case, I seriously question your zealot playing abilities, as I
> consider FE a blessing, as it's pretty much a joke, especially compared to
> some of the other mods that can spawn.
Well FE is not always fixed in SP, but with all of these explosions,
the point is that whether you survive is based on how much life
you have left at any given time. If you have more to start with
then you tend to have more left. I mean, how does any char
with decent resist and CNBF gear ever die in PvM? The methods are
basically limited to explosion like things, IM, and getting stun locked.
More life helps with all of those and minions help with the other two
(and also distract the stygian dolls).
Shiflet
"Mark" <mt...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:3PDZc.5334$w%6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> A shapeshifter doesn't let his minion(s) walk up to an enemy, you cast one
> ahead right on an OK for example to keep them tied up till you can cut
your
> way to them.
But as you've mentioned before, there's often okies you can't see, who can
curse you before you're anywhere near them...
> Regards-
> Mark
>
> Bongo-Fury
>
>
Shiflet
> It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the
> extra life and extra decoys - outweigh it.
There's a reason you see more zealots on b.net than you do shifter
druids...faster attack=faster leech, plus much higher def, PLUS inherent
ways to deal with PIs, PLUS far more versatility.
> A character that attacks even faster than the Zealot with a comparable
> amount of vitality is Assy builds based around Dragon Talon.
> They are offensively stronger than the wolf, but also die
> easier because of less vitality.
But they lack the other advantages of the zealot.
> As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special
> areas,
True, and that's the only area that will pose a problem for a zealot...but
it will also pose a problem for a Fury wolf.
> It is easy for the Druid to cast the minions out in front whenever needed,
And a paladin doesn't need the minions.
> and it is also easy for every character to run forward and then
> backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
Only in open areas.
> Well FE is not always fixed in SP, but with all of these explosions,
> the point is that whether you survive is based on how much life
> you have left at any given time.
With the FE bug, it kills characters with 4k+ life in one hit, so extra vita
won't save you there.
> I mean, how does any char with decent resist and CNBF gear ever die in
PvM?
> The methods are basically limited to explosion like things, IM, and
getting stun locked.
Not counting things like trapped TPS and such, there's also poor leech, PIs,
gloams(these kill people even with good resists), and slow attack speed.
> More life helps with all of those
So will faster attack with more leech.
> and minions help with the other two
My zealot hasn't been stun locked in ages, nor has he died to any explosion
like thing. IM can kill him, but I just play more cautiously if he's running
around in WSK or Chaos Sanc. And then, if you get IMed in mid zeal OR mid
fury(and it can happen, no matter HOW many minions you have), you're dead,
doesn't matter if you have 400 life or 4000 life.
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:defba027.04090...@posting.google.com...
>> It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the
>> extra life and extra decoys - outweigh it.
>
> There's a reason you see more zealots on b.net than you do shifter
> druids...
Could be many reasons. I'll venture that one is probably
that the build guides that people decided were "classic"
for the Wolf actually aren't very good. For instance, most
of them recommend maxing the Werewolf skill which I think is
largely a waste of skill points that can be better
spent elsewhere.
>faster attack=faster leech, plus much higher def, PLUS inherent
> ways to deal with PIs, PLUS far more versatility.
Defense doesn't help against elemental attacks, while
lots more vitality and Cyclone Armor do.
Minion decoys mean less damage in the first place, and
Oak Sage means much less likelihood that the merc takes
a dirt nap, and...this is getting redundant.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
>> A character that attacks even faster than the Zealot with a comparable
>> amount of vitality is Assy builds based around Dragon Talon.
>> They are offensively stronger than the wolf, but also die
>> easier because of less vitality.
>
> But they lack the other advantages of the zealot.
Disagree here too. Death Sentry, Shadow Master, Cloak
of Shadows, and Mind Blast are special skills that
are not matched by the Zealot.
>> As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special
>> areas,
>
> True, and that's the only area that will pose a problem for a zealot...but
> it will also pose a problem for a Fury wolf.
They are not a problem for getting the quests - it's easy
to do it safely with full attention. They are a problem
for chars that want to MF or do XP runs in those areas.
>> It is easy for the Druid to cast the minions out in front whenever needed,
>
> And a paladin doesn't need the minions.
>
>> and it is also easy for every character to run forward and then
>> backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
>
> Only in open areas.
Most all chars can have trouble with stair traps in
WSK if that is what you mean.
>> Well FE is not always fixed in SP, but with all of these explosions,
>> the point is that whether you survive is based on how much life
>> you have left at any given time.
>
> With the FE bug, it kills characters with 4k+ life in one hit, so extra vita
> won't save you there.
It's not 4K or nothing, even with Galeb Firefinger. It varies
randomly somehow. I actually have a problem with the Ancient
that does Whirlwind in SP - sometimes kills me and or hangs
the Diablo program with his death.
>> I mean, how does any char with decent resist and CNBF gear ever die in
> PvM?
>> The methods are basically limited to explosion like things, IM, and
> getting stun locked.
>
> Not counting things like trapped TPS and such, there's also poor leech, PIs,
> gloams(these kill people even with good resists), and slow attack speed.
Gloams are another good example where the Wolf has the advantage is
and is much less likely to die.
>> More life helps with all of those
>
> So will faster attack with more leech.
>
>> and minions help with the other two
>
> My zealot hasn't been stun locked in ages, nor has he died to any explosion
> like thing. IM can kill him, but I just play more cautiously if he's running
> around in WSK or Chaos Sanc. And then, if you get IMed in mid zeal OR mid
> fury(and it can happen, no matter HOW many minions you have), you're dead,
> doesn't matter if you have 400 life or 4000 life.
It depends on what you mean by mid and also on when the target dies.
It's a probability distribution and the Wolf, with so much more
life, is just less likely to die. You keep trying to equivocate
around that point by saying any melee char could die, but it doesn't
change the point that the Wolf dies less often.
Shiflet
> Defense doesn't help against elemental attacks, while
> lots more vitality and Cyclone Armor do.
Well, if you're a wolf, you're cyclone armor will be so low that it doesn't
really boost anything anyways(my wolf had something like lvl 9 cyclone, and
it was near worthless). Life will help you take more elemental hits...but
I'll kill them faster than you will, so I'll take less hits anyways.
> Minion decoys mean less damage in the first place,
Not hardly-you have to either cast them constantly, and against something
like gloams, it doesn't matter anyways, as their attacks pierce.
> and Oak Sage means much less likelihood that the merc takes
> a dirt nap,
My merc dies to IM...that's pretty much it, barring something particularly
nasty like a fana PI moonlord. And that's without Oak.
> Disagree here too. Death Sentry, Shadow Master, Cloak
> of Shadows, and Mind Blast are special skills that
> are not matched by the Zealot.
For a melee char, most imporant things are leech, defense, and damage. None
of those help, there.
> They are not a problem for getting the quests - it's easy
> to do it safely with full attention. They are a problem
> for chars that want to MF or do XP runs in those areas.
Which is mostly anyone that doesn't abandon their character the instant they
kill Hell Baal...
> > Only in open areas.
>
> Most all chars can have trouble with stair traps in
> WSK if that is what you mean.
That's not what I mean-I mean confined spaces like tombs, maggot lair, etc.
Of course, a good fury druid wouldn't need minions in those areas either.
> It's not 4K or nothing, even with Galeb Firefinger. It varies
> randomly somehow. I actually have a problem with the Ancient
> that does Whirlwind in SP - sometimes kills me and or hangs
> the Diablo program with his death.
In Hell, the old FE bug once killed all 8 charactes fighting the
ancients...the party included an Oak using druid, a barb with BO and BC, and
a paladin who switched to Salvation. Assuming he wasn't lying(and I don't
believe he was), the barb had almost 8k life, and was still 1 hit killed.
And aside from that bug, that's about the only way any decently equipped
player will die to a FE enemy. And with that bug, even insanely equipped
mega life builds can die in 1 hit, so...
> Gloams are another good example where the Wolf has the advantage is
> and is much less likely to die.
LOL! Only if you max cyclone armor and it's synergies, but how many skill
points does your character have to go around? At lvl 20 cyclone absorbs 268
damage, 1 solid gloam hit will drop that down immediately. And since you
have to shift back to human form to recast it, you can't even keep it up
easily. Minions won't help here either, cause gloam shots pierce them.
> It depends on what you mean by mid and also on when the target dies.
> It's a probability distribution and the Wolf, with so much more
> life, is just less likely to die. You keep trying to equivocate
> around that point by saying any melee char could die, but it doesn't
> change the point that the Wolf dies less often.
Cause the wolf DOESN'T die less often-wolves get owned by IM, same as
zealots, barbs, and pretty much any meleer that isn't playing extra cautious
and using a single 1 hit attack skill like vengeance or something not
affected at all by IM, like berserk or switching weapons to a throwing or
bow type weapon. There's a simple reason for this. IM returns damage. If you
have a decent fury in hell, you're gonna be doing what, 3k at least? IM at
*lvl 1* returns 200% of it, that's 6k returned. Assuming you get caught in
mid fury, that's dead, no matter how strong your oak is and how much vita
you have. Plus, I'm not certain, but I *think* okies have higher than lvl 1
IM. And as I said, with that damage being dealt, a wolf is NO LESS LIKELY to
die than ANY other physical damage melee char, as you'll need about 10k life
to survive if you get caught mid fury, and that's not gonna happen even for
a wolf.
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
>> Defense doesn't help against elemental attacks, while
>> lots more vitality and Cyclone Armor do.
>
> Well, if you're a wolf, you're cyclone armor will be so low that it doesn't
> really boost anything anyways(my wolf had something like lvl 9 cyclone, and
> it was near worthless). Life will help you take more elemental hits...but
> I'll kill them faster than you will, so I'll take less hits anyways.
I look at this from the perspective of somebody who either
plays HC or plays SC in a HC kind of way. From that
perspective, a char doesn't hang around attacking when
the red ball is going down fast. How much the char
leeches over 5 sec. is also largely irrelevant to survival.
The key point is whether you can get our of an unexpectedly tricky
situation before you die or not. Having twice as much life basically
gives you twice as much time to react and stabilize the situation.
>> Minion decoys mean less damage in the first place,
>
> Not hardly-you have to either cast them constantly, and against something
> like gloams, it doesn't matter anyways, as their attacks pierce.
See above. If my merc and 3 wolves just died my wolf is
*running* not recasting and your Pally might already be dead.
Dire wolves are the best Druid decoy minion because they get
a decent amount of life with oak sage and their own
synergy.
>> and Oak Sage means much less likelihood that the merc takes
>> a dirt nap,
>
> My merc dies to IM...that's pretty much it, barring something particularly
> nasty like a fana PI moonlord. And that's without Oak.
>
>> Disagree here too. Death Sentry, Shadow Master, Cloak
>> of Shadows, and Mind Blast are special skills that
>> are not matched by the Zealot.
>
> For a melee char, most imporant things are leech, defense, and damage. None
> of those help, there.
No, no, no. Staying alive is the most important. And
beyond that, faster crushing blows and death sentry explosions
provide more damage in late Hell than the regular physical
damage from any attack.
>> They are not a problem for getting the quests - it's easy
>> to do it safely with full attention. They are a problem
>> for chars that want to MF or do XP runs in those areas.
>
> Which is mostly anyone that doesn't abandon their character the instant they
> kill Hell Baal...
But they can either play with a party or abandon those WSK runs that
feature Oks if they are solo.
>> > Only in open areas.
>>
>> Most all chars can have trouble with stair traps in
>> WSK if that is what you mean.
>
> That's not what I mean-I mean confined spaces like tombs, maggot lair, etc.
> Of course, a good fury druid wouldn't need minions in those areas either.
>
>> It's not 4K or nothing, even with Galeb Firefinger. It varies
>> randomly somehow. I actually have a problem with the Ancient
>> that does Whirlwind in SP - sometimes kills me and or hangs
>> the Diablo program with his death.
>
> In Hell, the old FE bug once killed all 8 charactes fighting the
> ancients...the party included an Oak using druid, a barb with BO and BC, and
> a paladin who switched to Salvation. Assuming he wasn't lying(and I don't
> believe he was), the barb had almost 8k life, and was still 1 hit killed.
> And aside from that bug, that's about the only way any decently equipped
> player will die to a FE enemy. And with that bug, even insanely equipped
> mega life builds can die in 1 hit, so...
>
>> Gloams are another good example where the Wolf has the advantage is
>> and is much less likely to die.
>
> LOL! Only if you max cyclone armor and it's synergies, but how many skill
> points does your character have to go around? At lvl 20 cyclone absorbs 268
> damage, 1 solid gloam hit will drop that down immediately. And since you
> have to shift back to human form to recast it, you can't even keep it up
> easily. Minions won't help here either, cause gloam shots pierce them.
See above point again about perspective.
>> It depends on what you mean by mid and also on when the target dies.
>> It's a probability distribution and the Wolf, with so much more
>> life, is just less likely to die. You keep trying to equivocate
>> around that point by saying any melee char could die, but it doesn't
>> change the point that the Wolf dies less often.
>
> Cause the wolf DOESN'T die less often-wolves get owned by IM, same as
> zealots, barbs, and pretty much any meleer that isn't playing extra cautious
> and using a single 1 hit attack skill like vengeance or something not
> affected at all by IM, like berserk or switching weapons to a throwing or
> bow type weapon. There's a simple reason for this. IM returns damage. If you
> have a decent fury in hell, you're gonna be doing what, 3k at least? IM at
> *lvl 1* returns 200% of it, that's 6k returned. Assuming you get caught in
> mid fury, that's dead, no matter how strong your oak is and how much vita
> you have. Plus, I'm not certain, but I *think* okies have higher than lvl 1
> IM. And as I said, with that damage being dealt, a wolf is NO LESS LIKELY to
> die than ANY other physical damage melee char, as you'll need about 10k life
> to survive if you get caught mid fury, and that's not gonna happen even for
> a wolf.
With a weapon like Gimmershred, the physical part of the damage is
per single hit from the attack sequence will be much less than
3K - closer to 800-1K I think. As I said - it depends on when in the
sequence the IM is cast and also on when the target dies. To the best of
my knowledge crushing blow doesn't effect the returned damage and damage
reduction gear does.
tcells
> "Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:<10jdor4...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
> > > Any char can be strong with good enough gear, but
> > > having lots of vitality makes it much, much easier.
> >
> > With decent leech(very easily attainable), lots of vitality doesn't
really
> > do much at all though, which was the point.
>
> Well I categorically disagree with that point. In
> my understanding of the game, lots more vitality is
> *always* very helpful. It trades off against everything
> else including gear and stat point allocation.
>
Sorry but if we're to take what you're saying in a meaningful way, then it
is wrong. As you say, it trades off against everything else. So if we take
things to extremes, then you are saying a char equippid in normal gear with
all poinsts invested in vit will do better than a char with a reasonable
distribution between other stats. This is clearly wrong.
Being less extreme, your argument would follow that an investment in vit is
better than and investment in block & vit. Again this is very wrong. For a
melee paladin the break even point is around 500 total HP, for a sorc/necro
it is somewhat higher at around 900 HP due to no leech. This will of course
vary from player to player but they hold true enough as a generality.
>
> > > Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with
> > > reasonable gear, so the difference in speed is
> > > not dramatic.
> >
> > A paladin can get 5 fpa with decent weapons dropped in freebie games,
and
> > without much effort, can hit 4 fpa as well. And yes, this difference IS
> > dramatic, try dropping from 5 to 4, or going up from 4 and 5, and tell
me
> > you don't notice a signifigant difference...
>
> It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the
> extra life and extra decoys - outweigh it. A character
> that attacks even faster than the Zealot with a comparable
> amount of vitality is Assy builds based around Dragon Talon.
> They are offensively stronger than the wolf, but also die
> easier because of less vitality.
>
their attack is altogether different.
>
> > > You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
> > > doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy
> > > to keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they
> > > always curse the nearest target.
> >
> > And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't
typically
> > be so far away that you don't get cursed as well,
>
> As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special
> areas, so there is nothing typical about the way an melee
> build is played in those areas. It is easy for the Druid
> to cast the minions out in front whenever needed, and it
> is also easy for every character to run forward and then
> backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
>
CS, WK3, WK4. Showing up on WK3 & 4 means that dealing with them is
essential if the build is to achieve higher levels (unless u simply join
baal games).
>
> > > At the same quality level of gear, the Zealot will be more of
> > > a challenge and die sooner, to a Fire Enchanted monster, or
> > > a Stygian doll, or something else like that.
> >
> > FE? Your zealots have problems with FE enemies? I'm assuming you mean in
> > hell, and not NM(cause of the bug that 1 hit kills even barbs with 4k
life),
> > in which case, I seriously question your zealot playing abilities, as I
> > consider FE a blessing, as it's pretty much a joke, especially compared
to
> > some of the other mods that can spawn.
>
> Well FE is not always fixed in SP, but with all of these explosions,
> the point is that whether you survive is based on how much life
> you have left at any given time. If you have more to start with
> then you tend to have more left. I mean, how does any char
> with decent resist and CNBF gear ever die in PvM? The methods are
> basically limited to explosion like things, IM, and getting stun locked.
> More life helps with all of those and minions help with the other two
> (and also distract the stygian dolls).
lag :)
Shiflet
> plays HC or plays SC in a HC kind of way. From that
> perspective, a char doesn't hang around attacking when
> the red ball is going down fast.
And a melee character with good leech and fast attack won't have the red
ball going down that fast.
> How much the char leeches over 5 sec. is also largely irrelevant to
survival.
Since when? If you leech, you'll be staying at full health almost
continuously.
> The key point is whether you can get our of an unexpectedly tricky
> situation before you die or not. Having twice as much life basically
> gives you twice as much time to react and stabilize the situation.
Whereas with a fast attack and good leech, you won't tend to run into those
situations.
> See above. If my merc and 3 wolves just died my wolf is
> *running* not recasting
My merc doesn't die, cept to IM.
> and your Pally might already be dead.
Not hardly.
> Dire wolves are the best Druid decoy minion because they get
> a decent amount of life with oak sage and their own
> synergy.
A dire wolf can be brought down with 1 hit, by lots of things.
> No, no, no. Staying alive is the most important.
And leech and damage will keep you alive far better than anything you
mentioned for a meleer.
> And beyond that, faster crushing blows and death sentry explosions
> provide more damage in late Hell than the regular physical
> damage from any attack.
Crushing blow, sure, but a pally can get that just as easy.
> But they can either play with a party or abandon those WSK runs that
> feature Oks if they are solo.
Party play still exposes you to okies.
> See above point again about perspective.
The above point was irrelevant in regards to gloams...
> With a weapon like Gimmershred, the physical part of the damage is
> per single hit from the attack sequence will be much less than
> 3K - closer to 800-1K I think.
More than that-gimmershreds can do over 200 physical damage base, combine
that with the damage boost from fury, and you get pretty high up there. And
you already said you're only using the gimmers for PIs, not as main weapon.-
>As I said - it depends on when in the sequence the IM is cast and also on
when the target dies.
Cast on anything but the last hit, and you're dead.
> To the best of my knowledge crushing blow doesn't effect the returned
damage and damage
> reduction gear does.
Correct.
tcells
"Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:29:07 -0500, Shiflet wrote:
>
> >
> > "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
> >> Defense doesn't help against elemental attacks, while
> >> lots more vitality and Cyclone Armor do.
> >
> > Well, if you're a wolf, you're cyclone armor will be so low that it
doesn't
> > really boost anything anyways(my wolf had something like lvl 9 cyclone,
and
> > it was near worthless). Life will help you take more elemental
hits...but
> > I'll kill them faster than you will, so I'll take less hits anyways.
>
> I look at this from the perspective of somebody who either
> plays HC or plays SC in a HC kind of way. From that
> perspective, a char doesn't hang around attacking when
> the red ball is going down fast. How much the char
> leeches over 5 sec. is also largely irrelevant to survival.
How much they leech over x seconds is *highly* relevant. The x will change
depending on build and equipment. My last zealot has a carrion ring for
leech, and life tap from the gloves. Max block, max resists, very good DR
with a defiant merc meant that he is not taking too many hits. High AR
means he's putting on many more hits. This means he can weather packs which
chars with 2 or 3 times his life can't because he's leeching far more than
the damage he's taking.
DRating is very under valued till someone plays a more mature char with good
DR.
I think we can drop the notion of cyclone armour being a boon for a melee
druid - it's cumbersome and not high enough to make any difference except
for extreme circumstances and in these circumstances there's salvation or
one of the resists auras which aren't as cumbersome to use.
> The key point is whether you can get our of an unexpectedly tricky
> situation before you die or not. Having twice as much life basically
> gives you twice as much time to react and stabilize the situation.
>
*only* if all other things are equal, and they are not.
>
> >> Minion decoys mean less damage in the first place,
> >
> > Not hardly-you have to either cast them constantly, and against
something
> > like gloams, it doesn't matter anyways, as their attacks pierce.
>
> See above. If my merc and 3 wolves just died my wolf is
> *running* not recasting and your Pally might already be dead.
> Dire wolves are the best Druid decoy minion because they get
> a decent amount of life with oak sage and their own
> synergy.
I find it very dependent on what you're going against as to whether wolves
are better than the grizzly.
>
> >> and Oak Sage means much less likelihood that the merc takes
> >> a dirt nap,
> >
> > My merc dies to IM...that's pretty much it, barring something
particularly
> > nasty like a fana PI moonlord. And that's without Oak.
> >
> >> Disagree here too. Death Sentry, Shadow Master, Cloak
> >> of Shadows, and Mind Blast are special skills that
> >> are not matched by the Zealot.
> >
> > For a melee char, most imporant things are leech, defense, and damage.
None
> > of those help, there.
>
> No, no, no. Staying alive is the most important. And
> beyond that, faster crushing blows and death sentry explosions
> provide more damage in late Hell than the regular physical
> damage from any attack.
I can't really see the point to this part of the argument, if either of you
think you can level a melee char quicker than a trapper then you're sadly
mistaken.
>
> >> They are not a problem for getting the quests - it's easy
> >> to do it safely with full attention. They are a problem
> >> for chars that want to MF or do XP runs in those areas.
> >
> > Which is mostly anyone that doesn't abandon their character the instant
they
> > kill Hell Baal...
>
> But they can either play with a party or abandon those WSK runs that
> feature Oks if they are solo.
>
heh that's hardly addressing the point. WHo would want to take a char to
high levels where they either have to regularly skip runs or leech?
snip IM stuff.
If you & shiftlet want to talk about IM, you might as well drop any sort of
comparison between what they can melee when IM'd because using fury or zeal
they will both die and both die in their first attack - if yoiur AR or
damage isn't high enough to ensure this then the char will not be able to
melee through hell.
This means that the only meaningful comparison of them under these
conditions is hunger/fire claws/feral rage for the druid - ranged attack is
simply not a viable option for him vs ranged/vengence/FoH for the pally, and
some of these will req too much an investment as to ruin your main build.
on cyclone armour, a solid gloam hit can obliterate a synergised one.
A wolf can be as powerful as a zealot, but itr takes very good gear and
imho, an approach very different from what you're advocating. You need go
the way of the older cow chasing wolves - FHR/big damage/leech and add to
that now resists and max block for bad ranged areas. As far as I can see
the wolf is always going to be at a worse disadvantage against IM than the
zealot under general play conditions. Both suck against IM at any rate and
it's simply a very very poorly implemented part of the game.
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:defba027.04090...@posting.google.com...
>> "Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:<10jdor4...@corp.supernews.com>...
>> > "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
>> > > Any char can be strong with good enough gear, but
>> > > having lots of vitality makes it much, much easier.
>> >
>> > With decent leech(very easily attainable), lots of vitality doesn't
> really
>> > do much at all though, which was the point.
>>
>> Well I categorically disagree with that point. In
>> my understanding of the game, lots more vitality is
>> *always* very helpful. It trades off against everything
>> else including gear and stat point allocation.
>>
>
> Sorry but if we're to take what you're saying in a meaningful way, then it
> is wrong. As you say, it trades off against everything else. So if we take
> things to extremes, then you are saying a char equippid in normal gear with
> all poinsts invested in vit will do better than a char with a reasonable
> distribution between other stats. This is clearly wrong.
You know that isn't what I am saying (nor does it literally
follow from anything...). We are comparing two builds with very
similar melee attacks. One build has lots more vitality and
minions to add to this while the other has a slight advantage
in speed and higher defense. The first also boosts the vitality
of its party and the second boosts its speed and adds a slight
boost to its damage. Both theoretically, and from experience,
I believe that the former is a better set of tradeoffs.
> Being less extreme, your argument would follow that an investment in vit is
> better than and investment in block & vit. Again this is very wrong. For a
> melee paladin the break even point is around 500 total HP, for a sorc/necro
> it is somewhat higher at around 900 HP due to no leech. This will of course
> vary from player to player but they hold true enough as a generality.
This doesn't follow from what I wrote either and I don't know what
you mean. Are you recommending a melee build with 500 HP??????
>> > > Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with
>> > > reasonable gear, so the difference in speed is
>> > > not dramatic.
>> >
>> > A paladin can get 5 fpa with decent weapons dropped in freebie games,
> and
>> > without much effort, can hit 4 fpa as well. And yes, this difference IS
>> > dramatic, try dropping from 5 to 4, or going up from 4 and 5, and tell
> me
>> > you don't notice a signifigant difference...
>>
>> It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the
>> extra life and extra decoys - outweigh it. A character
>> that attacks even faster than the Zealot with a comparable
>> amount of vitality is Assy builds based around Dragon Talon.
>> They are offensively stronger than the wolf, but also die
>> easier because of less vitality.
>>
>
> their attack is altogether different.
Because DT hits one target? That's different in a good way.
>
>>
>> > > You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
>> > > doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy
>> > > to keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they
>> > > always curse the nearest target.
>> >
>> > And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't
> typically
>> > be so far away that you don't get cursed as well,
>>
>> As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special
>> areas, so there is nothing typical about the way an melee
>> build is played in those areas. It is easy for the Druid
>> to cast the minions out in front whenever needed, and it
>> is also easy for every character to run forward and then
>> backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
>>
>
> CS, WK3, WK4. Showing up on WK3 & 4 means that dealing with them is
> essential if the build is to achieve higher levels (unless u simply join
> baal games).
We're going on a tangent here. Neither the Wolf or the Zealot
has good way to quickly dispose of crowds containing OKs.
I argue that the Wolf can handle them at least as well because
of minions, and, yes, more vitality. But if either char
is in a team game then they will let teammates mostly kill
in that area and if either char is soloing just for XP or MF,
they will be tempted skip the randomly spawned OKs in WK
and try for a better roll. At least that would be the smart
play.
>
>>
>> > > At the same quality level of gear, the Zealot will be more of
>> > > a challenge and die sooner, to a Fire Enchanted monster, or
>> > > a Stygian doll, or something else like that.
>> >
>> > FE? Your zealots have problems with FE enemies? I'm assuming you mean in
>> > hell, and not NM(cause of the bug that 1 hit kills even barbs with 4k
> life),
>> > in which case, I seriously question your zealot playing abilities, as I
>> > consider FE a blessing, as it's pretty much a joke, especially compared
> to
>> > some of the other mods that can spawn.
>>
>> Well FE is not always fixed in SP, but with all of these explosions,
>> the point is that whether you survive is based on how much life
>> you have left at any given time. If you have more to start with
>> then you tend to have more left. I mean, how does any char
>> with decent resist and CNBF gear ever die in PvM? The methods are
>> basically limited to explosion like things, IM, and getting stun locked.
>> More life helps with all of those and minions help with the other two
>> (and also distract the stygian dolls).
>
> lag :)
Another good example. More vitality also helps improve the chances
of living in cases of lag.
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
>> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:29:07 -0500, Shiflet wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:pan.2004.09.02....@yahoo.com...
>> >> Defense doesn't help against elemental attacks, while
>> >> lots more vitality and Cyclone Armor do.
>> >
>> > Well, if you're a wolf, you're cyclone armor will be so low that it
> doesn't
>> > really boost anything anyways(my wolf had something like lvl 9 cyclone,
> and
>> > it was near worthless). Life will help you take more elemental
> hits...but
>> > I'll kill them faster than you will, so I'll take less hits anyways.
>>
>> I look at this from the perspective of somebody who either
>> plays HC or plays SC in a HC kind of way. From that
>> perspective, a char doesn't hang around attacking when
>> the red ball is going down fast. How much the char
>> leeches over 5 sec. is also largely irrelevant to survival.
>
> How much they leech over x seconds is *highly* relevant. The x will change
> depending on build and equipment.
Please don't lose our context here. First, we are talking about the
leech difference between a Druid with a 5FPS attack and a Zealot with a 4
FPS attack and comparable damage per hit, not the difference between leech
and no leech. Thats a 20% difference in speed compared to a 50% (at
least) difference in vitality. The antecedent is "red ball going
down fast". If that is true for the Wolf then it is *more true*
for the Zealot with the same leech.
> My last zealot has a carrion ring for
> leech, and life tap from the gloves. Max block, max resists, very good DR
> with a defiant merc meant that he is not taking too many hits. High AR
> means he's putting on many more hits. This means he can weather packs which
> chars with 2 or 3 times his life can't because he's leeching far more than
> the damage he's taking.
See above.
> DRating is very under valued till someone plays a more mature char with good
> DR.
It's true that, for instance, doubling defense means a lot more for
a char that already has high defense than a char that has low
defense. But the gear has to be pretty tremendous to start with
before Holy Shield can give a 50% reduction from non Holy Shield
in chance to get hit. That doesn't happen in late Hell because
the monster level is usually a little higher than the player level.
> I think we can drop the notion of cyclone armour being a boon for a melee
> druid - it's cumbersome and not high enough to make any difference except
> for extreme circumstances and in these circumstances there's salvation or
> one of the resists auras which aren't as cumbersome to use.
Resist auras would be better if they didn't cripple the Pally's
offensive capabilities. Given that they do, I disagree that they
are less cumbersome. In my case, I had the dual motivation of
points in cyclone armor for defense and to boost the damage of
Tornadoes cast by my weapon. But eliminating 200-300 elemental
damage is nothing to sneeze at when it can be the difference
between living or not.
>> The key point is whether you can get our of an unexpectedly tricky
>> situation before you die or not. Having twice as much life basically
>> gives you twice as much time to react and stabilize the situation.
>>
>
> *only* if all other things are equal, and they are not.
Right, but is is a very important advantage and some
of the other advantages also go the Druid's way - mainly
5 extra decoys taking enemy damage in lieu of the Druid.
>>
>> >> Minion decoys mean less damage in the first place,
>> >
>> > Not hardly-you have to either cast them constantly, and against
> something
>> > like gloams, it doesn't matter anyways, as their attacks pierce.
>>
>> See above. If my merc and 3 wolves just died my wolf is
>> *running* not recasting and your Pally might already be dead.
>> Dire wolves are the best Druid decoy minion because they get
>> a decent amount of life with oak sage and their own
>> synergy.
>
> I find it very dependent on what you're going against as to whether wolves
> are better than the grizzly.
When do you think the grizzly is better, given that he has less
total life and there is only one of him?
>>
>> >> and Oak Sage means much less likelihood that the merc takes
>> >> a dirt nap,
>> >
>> > My merc dies to IM...that's pretty much it, barring something
> particularly
>> > nasty like a fana PI moonlord. And that's without Oak.
>> >
>> >> Disagree here too. Death Sentry, Shadow Master, Cloak
>> >> of Shadows, and Mind Blast are special skills that
>> >> are not matched by the Zealot.
>> >
>> > For a melee char, most imporant things are leech, defense, and damage.
> None
>> > of those help, there.
>>
>> No, no, no. Staying alive is the most important. And
>> beyond that, faster crushing blows and death sentry explosions
>> provide more damage in late Hell than the regular physical
>> damage from any attack.
>
> I can't really see the point to this part of the argument, if either of you
> think you can level a melee char quicker than a trapper then you're sadly
> mistaken.
The Dragon Talon build I favor ends up maxing Death Sentry and
Lightning sentry. DT gets enough kills to basically keep Death
Sentry going and it deals with mega-life bosses. It's nice
for solo because you get physical damage, lightning damage,
poison from venom, and, with something like Gimmers on switch,
lots of other elemental damage as well.
>>
>> >> They are not a problem for getting the quests - it's easy
>> >> to do it safely with full attention. They are a problem
>> >> for chars that want to MF or do XP runs in those areas.
>> >
>> > Which is mostly anyone that doesn't abandon their character the instant
> they
>> > kill Hell Baal...
>>
>> But they can either play with a party or abandon those WSK runs that
>> feature Oks if they are solo.
>>
>
> heh that's hardly addressing the point. WHo would want to take a char to
> high levels where they either have to regularly skip runs or leech?
I restated this point more fully in the other post. I'm not sure what
you are saying that bears on the Wolf vs. Zealot debate, but you
can add it there if you think it is relevant.
>
> If you & shiftlet want to talk about IM, you might as well drop any sort
> of comparison between what they can melee when IM'd because using fury
> or zeal they will both die and both die in their first attack - if yoiur
> AR or damage isn't high enough to ensure this then the char will not be
> able to melee through hell.
I don't want to talk about IM and I'm not sure why it keeps
continuing as a focus. The Druid has no "weapon mastery"
problem and can Fury with a Shocking tomb wand if he needs to.
tcells
I'm taking what you're saying to the extreme case here
>
> > Being less extreme, your argument would follow that an investment in vit
is
> > better than and investment in block & vit. Again this is very wrong.
For a
> > melee paladin the break even point is around 500 total HP, for a
sorc/necro
> > it is somewhat higher at around 900 HP due to no leech. This will of
course
> > vary from player to player but they hold true enough as a generality.
>
> This doesn't follow from what I wrote either and I don't know what
> you mean.
I thought this did follow directly from what you are saying, or at least is
how I understood this to read:
lots more vitality is
> >> *always* very helpful. It trades off against everything
> >> else including gear and stat point allocation.
Are you recommending a melee build with 500 HP??????
>
not at all. However, if you have a SS melee build with 500HP then you are
better off spending points to maintain a max block at the expense of vit
rather than visa versa.
>
> >> > > Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with
> >> > > reasonable gear, so the difference in speed is
> >> > > not dramatic.
> >> >
> >> > A paladin can get 5 fpa with decent weapons dropped in freebie games,
> > and
> >> > without much effort, can hit 4 fpa as well. And yes, this difference
IS
> >> > dramatic, try dropping from 5 to 4, or going up from 4 and 5, and
tell
> > me
> >> > you don't notice a signifigant difference...
> >>
> >> It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the
> >> extra life and extra decoys - outweigh it. A character
> >> that attacks even faster than the Zealot with a comparable
> >> amount of vitality is Assy builds based around Dragon Talon.
> >> They are offensively stronger than the wolf, but also die
> >> easier because of less vitality.
> >>
> >
> > their attack is altogether different.
>
> Because DT hits one target? That's different in a good way.
>
not if you're stunning monsters, not if you've got a mix of PI non PI which
you need to leech from and besides that CoS, MB and a much more powerfulk
minion than anything available to the druid. Different damage levels as
well.
> >
> >>
> >> > > You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
> >> > > doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy
> >> > > to keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they
> >> > > always curse the nearest target.
> >> >
> >> > And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't
> > typically
> >> > be so far away that you don't get cursed as well,
> >>
> >> As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special
> >> areas, so there is nothing typical about the way an melee
> >> build is played in those areas. It is easy for the Druid
> >> to cast the minions out in front whenever needed, and it
> >> is also easy for every character to run forward and then
> >> backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
> >>
> >
> > CS, WK3, WK4. Showing up on WK3 & 4 means that dealing with them is
> > essential if the build is to achieve higher levels (unless u simply join
> > baal games).
>
> We're going on a tangent here. Neither the Wolf or the Zealot
> has good way to quickly dispose of crowds containing OKs.
agreed
> I argue that the Wolf can handle them at least as well because
> of minions, and, yes, more vitality.
and it's a discussion worth persuing. I don't think the wolf is as well
equiped to deal with the situation, I think the advantage of being able to
use a ranged attack, having a chioce of auras to choose from (HF and
sanctuary can figure here as well as salvation which is often over looked)
work to the paladin's advantage. Another tactic in these situations which
has not been brought up is conversion.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts in particular on using hunger in
these situations.
But if either char
> is in a team game then they will let teammates mostly kill
> in that area and if either char is soloing just for XP or MF,
> they will be tempted skip the randomly spawned OKs in WK
> and try for a better roll. At least that would be the smart
> play.
>
I agree with the team bit, but skipping for a reroll, particularly in HC, is
not how I see that the game should be played.
However, vit is not the only thing which will help improve the chances of
living through lag and certainly hp at the expense of block, resists, and
even FHR is often not the best choice
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>Please don't lose our context here. First, we are talking about the
>leech difference between a Druid with a 5FPS attack and a Zealot with a 4
>FPS attack and comparable damage per hit, not the difference between leech
>and no leech. Thats a 20% difference in speed compared to a 50% (at
>least) difference in vitality. The antecedent is "red ball going
>down fast". If that is true for the Wolf then it is *more true*
>for the Zealot with the same leech.
Not necessarily. As tcells mentioned, the 'x' is very relevant ->
20% more hits = leech back 20% more life over time, given the same
physical damage per strike. At that point, it's a matter of
'breakeven' - where your leeched life over time exceeds damage taken
over time. Beyond considerations of hit recovery (total life and
character class both being a factor, of course)/having enough life to
take a few hits in fast succession - 'lucky' rolls from the monsters,
bad combo mods, or lag spikes (and of course the extent of lag spikes
would be more of consideration to some of us than others).
Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
don't. If it turns out the paladin has enough, then the fact that
the wolf might have more isn't necessarily an advantage. That's not
to say that a lot of life isn't nice, just that it's only one piece of
the puzzle, just as shield block is another piece of the puzzle, ditto
with defense, etc.
More than 1/12 of life in one hit -> hit recovery. At first glance,
one would say druid has the advantage there, since he'll have a bigger
life ball, so it takes more damage to put him into recovery, but on
the other hand, the paladin has faster recovery.
>Resist auras would be better if they didn't cripple the Pally's
>offensive capabilities. Given that they do, I disagree that they
>are less cumbersome. In my case, I had the dual motivation of
>points in cyclone armor for defense and to boost the damage of
>Tornadoes cast by my weapon. But eliminating 200-300 elemental
>damage is nothing to sneeze at when it can be the difference
>between living or not.
Yes, potentially true. Depends whether one is trying to compare
druid (shield block shifter specifically, was it?)/paladin under
general play, or for 'worst case' scenarios. Until everyone is on
the same page as regards that, it's going to be difficult to make a
fair comparison. Sure, one can argue that under worst case
scenarios, the druid might survive where the paladin wouldn't on the
basis of having a higher life ball, and thus being able to take the
bigger kill shots/lag induced combo shots than the paladin, but on the
other hand, the paladin can obtain high shield block (function of
innate block differences - paladin gets 10% more block on any given
shield than a druid, IIRC, plus has the use of HS, of
course)/resistances more easily than the druid.
>Right, but is is a very important advantage and some
>of the other advantages also go the Druid's way - mainly
>5 extra decoys taking enemy damage in lieu of the Druid.
5 extra? What's the context here? 3 dire wolves + spirit (that's
only 4?) or 5 spirit wolves + spirit? I suppose you could argue
it's a bit more if you throw in some ravens.
>> I find it very dependent on what you're going against as to whether wolves
>> are better than the grizzly.
>When do you think the grizzly is better, given that he has less
>total life and there is only one of him?
On my summoning druid, the grizzly has considerably more life than the
dire wolves (in the vicinity of 4-5x as much)
Offensively - Grizzly is better for applying concentrated damage to
one target in a pack, for shutting it down (killing it) faster. The
dires have a tendency to at times split off and engage different
targets in a mob.
Defensively - grizz stronger against major hard hitters than the
dires, but for general play, dires better for target spreading.
>I don't want to talk about IM and I'm not sure why it keeps
>continuing as a focus. The Druid has no "weapon mastery"
>problem and can Fury with a Shocking tomb wand if he needs to.
Weapon mastery problem? Are we still talking druid versus paladin?
And at a pinch, the paladin can more capably make use of throwing
weapons versus the druid meleeing with elemental damage (the druid
will have to unshift for a start, if he wants to throw losing much of
his life advantage, the paladin will potentially be able to greatly
enhance his throw damage/AR with auras) I'd give that round to the
paladin.
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>
I tend to go for a compromise and get enough hard dex to maintain the
block of my shield of choice (60% block on the shield -> 60% shield
block for the character, before item adders), rather than simply
maxing, and then put the surplus in vitality instead. I get what
you're saying about breakeven points though... my hydra girl is up to
around 950 life, following some fortunate charm finds, so I'm going to
focus more on dex from here on out.
>However, vit is not the only thing which will help improve the chances of
>living through lag and certainly hp at the expense of block, resists, and
>even FHR is often not the best choice
Agreed. The adage about not putting all your eggs in one basket,
springs to mind here. Good melee = good total package.
tcells
"Stephen van Ham" <sva...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:4hmfj01pu89bkmp5i...@4ax.com...
that's a fair enough way to go, so long as you keep in mind that sooner or
later you will hit that point where it's worth escalating points in dex hard
to make up for a poor blocking shield, alkthough of course there are some
shields you'd simply not consider4 doing this with.
tcells
snip
> >Right, but is is a very important advantage and some
> >of the other advantages also go the Druid's way - mainly
> >5 extra decoys taking enemy damage in lieu of the Druid.
>
> 5 extra? What's the context here? 3 dire wolves + spirit (that's
> only 4?) or 5 spirit wolves + spirit? I suppose you could argue
> it's a bit more if you throw in some ravens.
>
3 dires, 1 vine, 1 spirit
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>snip
>> >Right, but is is a very important advantage and some
>> >of the other advantages also go the Druid's way - mainly
>> >5 extra decoys taking enemy damage in lieu of the Druid.
>>
>> 5 extra? What's the context here? 3 dire wolves + spirit (that's
>> only 4?) or 5 spirit wolves + spirit? I suppose you could argue
>> it's a bit more if you throw in some ravens.
>>
>
>3 dires, 1 vine, 1 spirit
Right, like a vine survives long enough anyway. ;-)
SVH
- Owner of 'glass jaw' vines.
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>> I tend to go for a compromise and get enough hard dex to maintain the
>> block of my shield of choice (60% block on the shield -> 60% shield
>> block for the character, before item adders), rather than simply
>> maxing, and then put the surplus in vitality instead. I get what
>> you're saying about breakeven points though... my hydra girl is up to
>> around 950 life, following some fortunate charm finds, so I'm going to
>> focus more on dex from here on out.
>
>that's a fair enough way to go, so long as you keep in mind that sooner or
>later you will hit that point where it's worth escalating points in dex hard
>to make up for a poor blocking shield, alkthough of course there are some
>shields you'd simply not consider4 doing this with.
Yes, I don't generally (talking general melee, not just pally melee)
consider a shield with less than 60% innate block to be worth trying
to get up max/near-max block with. It just takes too much
dexterity/not enough vitality for the kind of budget charm selection I
often have. My current girl is still having to settle for a Ward
(46%), so with her anni/tals belt, her block is only around 51%.
Fingers crossed for a nice purple deflecting shield to go with that
tal's armour that she's going to find eventually. ;-)
I had a couple of nice hits from doing clears pindle's garden last
night (nothing from the big guy himself though) - a cold damage/20
life sc (went to the zealot), and a 45 mana/37 life grand. :-)
tcells
well they often will die from the first hit of the exchange, but I find them
particularly likeable little minions to have around :)
tcells
> My my, doesn't "tcells" <tce...@yahoo.com> look good in that
> trenchcoat:
>
> >> I tend to go for a compromise and get enough hard dex to maintain the
> >> block of my shield of choice (60% block on the shield -> 60% shield
> >> block for the character, before item adders), rather than simply
> >> maxing, and then put the surplus in vitality instead. I get what
> >> you're saying about breakeven points though... my hydra girl is up to
> >> around 950 life, following some fortunate charm finds, so I'm going to
> >> focus more on dex from here on out.
> >
> >that's a fair enough way to go, so long as you keep in mind that sooner
or
> >later you will hit that point where it's worth escalating points in dex
hard
> >to make up for a poor blocking shield, alkthough of course there are some
> >shields you'd simply not consider4 doing this with.
>
> Yes, I don't generally (talking general melee, not just pally melee)
> consider a shield with less than 60% innate block to be worth trying
> to get up max/near-max block with. It just takes too much
> dexterity/not enough vitality for the kind of budget charm selection I
> often have. My current girl is still having to settle for a Ward
> (46%), so with her anni/tals belt, her block is only around 51%.
> Fingers crossed for a nice purple deflecting shield to go with that
> tal's armour that she's going to find eventually. ;-)
>
do you *really* need the additional resists? Rhymed heater works very well.
I don't think there's a mosers lying around but that too.
> I had a couple of nice hits from doing clears pindle's garden last
> night (nothing from the big guy himself though) - a cold damage/20
> life sc (went to the zealot), and a 45 mana/37 life grand. :-)
>
a nice pair indeed
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>do you *really* need the additional resists? Rhymed heater works very well.
>I don't think there's a mosers lying around but that too.
If only I could put Rhyme in a naturally purple hued shield...
Shiflet
> I had a couple of nice hits from doing clears pindle's garden last
> night (nothing from the big guy himself though) - a cold damage/20
> life sc (went to the zealot), and a 45 mana/37 life grand. :-)
I made a game today called "buyeth stormlas" and while waiting hoping
someone would show up, I decided to do some MFing, since the character I
created the game with had around 300 MF on him...in that one game, I got
Titans, Shaft, Ginthers Rift(oh well), and Sazabi's armor...not to mention
several more normal non noteworthy uniques and low level set pieces...
Last2Know
Okay, I see the confusion. It is a quantifier scoping problem.
I'm saying that extra vitality is is always a good thing
(*for every* build it can help) and also that there are many
choice situations (*there exist some* situations) where the fact
that the build has access to this extra vitality allows it
to improve in other ways - for example: obtaining high
blocking with a shield that has lower block, getting
a better strength bonus to a melee attack while keeping
a given level of vitality, wearing slightly less resist
gear in favor of some other gear attribute because for
a built with twice the vitality, every attack is only
half as damage as a percentage of total life.
The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
> Are you recommending a melee build with 500 HP??????
>>
>>
> not at all. However, if you have a SS melee build with 500HP then you
> are better off spending points to maintain a max block at the expense of
> vit rather than visa versa.
I think that depends how one plays. First, I assume we are talking
about PvM, right? One fact to take note is that the damage
from individual monster physical attacks is actually surprisingly
low. Stats are listed here on Arreat Summit:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5.shtml
Do the thought experiment of guessing what you think the
damage of a Blood Lord on hell level is and then looking
at what AS says:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5g-bloodlord.shtml
Same with Blunderbore:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5g-blunderbore.shtml
Of course Champions, etc. can be multiples of these figures,
but much of their damage is often elemental as well, and
probably not all that high since pure physical damage from even
the Act bosses on hell level is fairly modest.
So really, the places where a char takes a lot of physical
damage that can potentially be blocked, are either from big
gangs of archers or from getting caught in the middle of
a crowd of attackers. So if one wants to play in a style
that involves taking on the crowds head on, then max
block is irreplaceable. However, if one is willing to
be tactical against the crowds, then the equation moves
more in favor of vitality. So for a char that can
attack from a distance, like the Fireball/FO sorc, I
do favor vitality at the expense of blocking, but I
take my time with the archers, etc, treating them
with a lot of respect.
>> >> > > Also, a Fury Druid can get to 5 FPS attack with reasonable gear,
>> >> > > so the difference in speed is not dramatic.
>> >> >
>> >> > A paladin can get 5 fpa with decent weapons dropped in freebie
>> >> > games,
>> > and
>> >> > without much effort, can hit 4 fpa as well. And yes, this
>> >> > difference
> IS
>> >> > dramatic, try dropping from 5 to 4, or going up from 4 and 5, and
> tell
>> > me
>> >> > you don't notice a signifigant difference...
>> >>
>> >> It's different but the other advantages of the Druid - the extra
>> >> life and extra decoys - outweigh it. A character that attacks even
>> >> faster than the Zealot with a comparable amount of vitality is Assy
>> >> builds based around Dragon Talon. They are offensively stronger than
>> >> the wolf, but also die easier because of less vitality.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > their attack is altogether different.
>>
>> Because DT hits one target? That's different in a good way.
>>
>>
> not if you're stunning monsters,
As described above, doing melee in a crowd of monsters is
inherently one of the more dangerous situations.
If the monsters are high level, then it is usually
not a good idea unless they are chilled or slowed
in some way (e.g. by HF merc or a slowing property of
one's weapon).
>not if you've got a mix of PI non PI
> which you need to leech from
Then it's good to have control of which monster you
attacking, so DT has a key advantage.
The more important advantage is that it gets
the first kill quickly and then Death Sentry can
be applied.
> and besides that CoS, MB and a much more
> powerfulk minion than anything available to the druid. Different damage
> levels as well.
But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot
for HC type safety and the Kicker is better than the
Zealot for SC type killing/leveling speed.
>
>> >> > > You have to decide whether to throw ahead of time. A Werewolf
>> >> > > doesn't have the same problems with IM because it is easy to
>> >> > > keep minions between the wolf and the OKs and they always curse
>> >> > > the nearest target.
>> >> >
>> >> > And if you're a melee druid, as a fury wolf is, your minions won't
>> > typically
>> >> > be so far away that you don't get cursed as well,
>> >>
>> >> As you know, the OKs that cast IM only show up in two special areas,
>> >> so there is nothing typical about the way an melee build is played
>> >> in those areas. It is easy for the Druid to cast the minions out in
>> >> front whenever needed, and it is also easy for every character to
>> >> run forward and then backtrack so that the minions are out ahead.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > CS, WK3, WK4. Showing up on WK3 & 4 means that dealing with them is
>> > essential if the build is to achieve higher levels (unless u simply
>> > join baal games).
>>
>> We're going on a tangent here. Neither the Wolf or the Zealot has good
>> way to quickly dispose of crowds containing OKs.
>
> agreed
>
>> I argue that the Wolf can handle them at least as well because of
>> minions, and, yes, more vitality.
>
> and it's a discussion worth persuing. I don't think the wolf is as well
> equiped to deal with the situation, I think the advantage of being able
> to use a ranged attack,
Are you thinking of using Fanaticism, Blessed Aim, Conviction,
or something else like Holy Shock?
The former has low AR by itself, and getting points in the others
would take elsewhere from the Zealot build unless it is a Tesladin.
An OK on hell level can have 5K-9K life so it would take a good
while and perhaps a few trips to the town blacksmith to
finish off a pack of them.
> having a chioce of auras to choose from (HF and
> sanctuary can figure here as well as salvation which is often over
> looked) work to the paladin's advantage. Another tactic in these
> situations which has not been brought up is conversion.
Tricky and also slow. In the same category, the Wolf could
get Spirit of the Barbs and use the Dire Wolves to reverse
IM all the Melee monsters.
> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts in particular on using hunger
> in these situations.
I think that without synergy, both FireClaws and Hunger kill more
slowly than, say, using Fury with a doubly shael'd (5FPS) 1-400 damage
tomb wand along with Crushing Blow gear and and perhaps a Tiamat's
> But if either char
>> is in a team game then they will let teammates mostly kill in that area
>> and if either char is soloing just for XP or MF, they will be tempted
>> skip the randomly spawned OKs in WK and try for a better roll. At
>> least that would be the smart play.
>>
>>
> I agree with the team bit, but skipping for a reroll, particularly in
> HC, is not how I see that the game should be played.
It isn't necessary to re=roll if one is just going for the onetime
quest. Being careful will work too. I'm not sure that doing a
zillion Baal runs is really a great example of playing any particular
game. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't pick the Wolf or the Zealot
if that was my plan.
Shiflet
> but much of their damage is often elemental as well, and
> probably not all that high since pure physical damage from even
> the Act bosses on hell level is fairly modest.
I have my doubts about the Summit's listing of damage on those
figures...I've had chars lose 300-500 life in ONE hit from a normal, non
champ, non minion reanimated horde, and neither of their attacks is listed
as dealing 500 damage. Several other enemies I've had similar experiences
with, like bloodlords. Someone else once suggested that the AS lists the
BASE damage for the monsters, their "listed weapon damage" essentially, and
doesn't factor in the damage boost from the skills they use(Charge for
snakes and returneds, Frenzy from bloodlords, Smite from blunderbores, etc),
and I'm inclined to believe this. And of course, it also doesn't include
things like inherent elemental damage or other special mods(like the magic
damage on a bloodlord's melee attack, plus the possible elemental they can
do even as normal monsters, or an urdar's crushing blow).
Last2Know
> My my, doesn't Last2Know <grok...@yahoo.com> look good in that
> trenchcoat:
>
>>Please don't lose our context here. First, we are talking about the
>>leech difference between a Druid with a 5FPS attack and a Zealot with a 4
>>FPS attack and comparable damage per hit, not the difference between leech
>>and no leech. Thats a 20% difference in speed compared to a 50% (at
>>least) difference in vitality. The antecedent is "red ball going
>>down fast". If that is true for the Wolf then it is *more true*
>>for the Zealot with the same leech.
>
> Not necessarily. As tcells mentioned, the 'x' is very relevant ->
> 20% more hits = leech back 20% more life over time, given the same
> physical damage per strike. At that point, it's a matter of
> 'breakeven' - where your leeched life over time exceeds damage taken
> over time.
Yes its possible. In the particular situation you describe
(good leech potential compared to damage) the Druid would be better
off swinging a slightly slower but significantly higher damage
two handed weapon. One price one would pay for that is being
more vulnerable in situations where the damage greatly exceeds
the leeching potential. In some sense, that is the tradeoff
the Pally is making all the time since he basically takes
damage twice as fast as a percentage of vitality.
> Beyond considerations of hit recovery (total life and
> character class both being a factor, of course)/having enough life to
> take a few hits in fast succession - 'lucky' rolls from the monsters,
> bad combo mods, or lag spikes (and of course the extent of lag spikes
> would be more of consideration to some of us than others).
>
> Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
> don't.
More typically one adjusts one's playing style to be optimal
at the given level of death risk one is comfortable with.
The char with the larger life ball can either die less
often or retreat less often with the same freq of deaths.
If one's perspective is that a death here and there is okay,
and one has good enough gear so as not to be at risk in
most situations, then I can see where char with slightly faster
killing speed being preferred because the prob. of both
death and need to retreat have been pinned at sufficiently
low levels. But if either death prob. has to be lower,
or level of gear is such that more situations are risky,
then the equation changes.
> More than 1/12 of life in one hit -> hit recovery. At first glance,
> one would say druid has the advantage there, since he'll have a bigger
> life ball, so it takes more damage to put him into recovery, but on
> the other hand, the paladin has faster recovery.
Yes, there may not be any physical attacks that take more than
1/12 of the Druids life at a high level. Also I generally find
that a bit of FHR from gear and charms often prevents noticing
recovery in PvM over long stretches of play.
>>Resist auras would be better if they didn't cripple the Pally's
>>offensive capabilities. Given that they do, I disagree that they are
>>less cumbersome. In my case, I had the dual motivation of points in
>>cyclone armor for defense and to boost the damage of Tornadoes cast by
>>my weapon. But eliminating 200-300 elemental damage is nothing to
>>sneeze at when it can be the difference between living or not.
>
> Yes, potentially true. Depends whether one is trying to compare druid
> (shield block shifter specifically, was it?)/paladin under general play,
> or for 'worst case' scenarios. Until everyone is on the same page as
> regards that, it's going to be difficult to make a fair comparison.
> Sure, one can argue that under worst case scenarios, the druid might
> survive where the paladin wouldn't on the basis of having a higher life
> ball, and thus being able to take the bigger kill shots/lag induced
> combo shots than the paladin, but on the other hand, the paladin can
> obtain high shield block (function of innate block differences - paladin
> gets 10% more block on any given shield than a druid, IIRC, plus has the
> use of HS, of course)/resistances more easily than the druid.
This is sort of along the lines of what I wrote above.
>>Right, but is is a very important advantage and some of the other
>>advantages also go the Druid's way - mainly 5 extra decoys taking enemy
>>damage in lieu of the Druid.
>
> 5 extra? What's the context here? 3 dire wolves + spirit (that's
> only 4?) or 5 spirit wolves + spirit? I suppose you could argue it's
> a bit more if you throw in some ravens.
I was thinking of the Carrion vine. It's a bit hard to hit, so with max
Oak Sage it survives as a target for a little while and can be
recast.
>>> I find it very dependent on what you're going against as to whether
>>> wolves are better than the grizzly.
>
>>When do you think the grizzly is better, given that he has less total
>>life and there is only one of him?
>
> On my summoning druid, the grizzly has considerably more life than the
> dire wolves (in the vicinity of 4-5x as much)
If you add together the life of the three wolves, they pass the grizzly
at level 7 of the Dire Wolf skill. Putting points in Dire Wolf
increases the life of both, but I consider maxing both to be too
much of a point waste. So Dire Wolves really give more target
hit points in most situations as well as more targets.
> Offensively - Grizzly is better for applying concentrated damage to one
> target in a pack, for shutting it down (killing it) faster. The dires
> have a tendency to at times split off and engage different targets in a
> mob.
Right, but the Wolf himself is so much better against a target
that can be physically damaged with Crushing blow that the
situations where this would be important are probably restricted
to things like dealing with a LEB or FEB where the grizz will
die pretty quickly anyway.
> Defensively - grizz stronger against major hard hitters than the dires,
> but for general play, dires better for target spreading.
>
>>I don't want to talk about IM and I'm not sure why it keeps continuing
>>as a focus. The Druid has no "weapon mastery" problem and can Fury with
>>a Shocking tomb wand if he needs to.
>
> Weapon mastery problem? Are we still talking druid versus paladin?
>
> And at a pinch, the paladin can more capably make use of throwing
> weapons versus the druid meleeing with elemental damage (the druid will
> have to unshift for a start, if he wants to throw losing much of his
> life advantage, the paladin will potentially be able to greatly enhance
> his throw damage/AR with auras) I'd give that round to the paladin.
I talked about this in another post. I don't see throwing as a
very practical solution on late hell level for a Zealot, and I
certainly wasn't proposing it for the Druid.
Stephen van Ham
And on the flipside, he's also leeching life back twice as fast as a
percentage of life, yes. :-)
>
>
>> Beyond considerations of hit recovery (total life and
>> character class both being a factor, of course)/having enough life to
>> take a few hits in fast succession - 'lucky' rolls from the monsters,
>> bad combo mods, or lag spikes (and of course the extent of lag spikes
>> would be more of consideration to some of us than others).
>>
>> Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
>> don't.
>
>More typically one adjusts one's playing style to be optimal
>at the given level of death risk one is comfortable with.
Yes and no. I wasn't making a comment on play style. ;-)
>The char with the larger life ball can either die less
>often or retreat less often with the same freq of deaths.
Again, yes and no. Yes, if one takes purely in isolation, no if one
treats as just another factor (the context for the 'just another
number' comment) - if we take leech purely out of the equation, who
will die faster, a druid with 2500 life, 2000 defense, and 75% block,
or a paladin with 1000 life, 10000 defense, and 75% block? Those are
fairly realistic numbers, I think, if you factor in the relative
traits of the two classes (life per vitality, defense boosts from
skills, investment in dexterity to maintain high shield block, etc).
I don't think it's as clear cut as saying the character with more life
will be safer - the game is a bit broader than that.
>If one's perspective is that a death here and there is okay,
>and one has good enough gear so as not to be at risk in
>most situations, then I can see where char with slightly faster
>killing speed being preferred because the prob. of both
>death and need to retreat have been pinned at sufficiently
>low levels. But if either death prob. has to be lower,
>or level of gear is such that more situations are risky,
>then the equation changes.
Yes.
>> 5 extra? What's the context here? 3 dire wolves + spirit (that's
>> only 4?) or 5 spirit wolves + spirit? I suppose you could argue it's
>> a bit more if you throw in some ravens.
>I was thinking of the Carrion vine. It's a bit hard to hit, so with max
>Oak Sage it survives as a target for a little while and can be
>recast.
Okay.
>If you add together the life of the three wolves, they pass the grizzly
>at level 7 of the Dire Wolf skill. Putting points in Dire Wolf
>increases the life of both, but I consider maxing both to be too
>much of a point waste. So Dire Wolves really give more target
>hit points in most situations as well as more targets.
Alright. I see the context now that you've elaborated a bit more.
>I talked about this in another post. I don't see throwing as a
>very practical solution on late hell level for a Zealot, and I
>certainly wasn't proposing it for the Druid.
I don't think using a shocking wand as much of a solution either.
;-) But I suppose if one wanted to look at that purely in isolation
(druid using a shocking wand versus paladin using a shocking wand).
With life leech basically out of the question, I'd perhaps grudgingly
give the nod to the druid, for his higher life versus the higher
defense of the paladin. Of course, the conditions of the battle
would play a factor too - depending on what other mobs might be
attacking (e.g. mixed mobds of melee ranged/elemental attackers, which
often occurs on WSK3/4 in particular), the potentially superior
resistances of the paladin would swing the balance back more in his
factor.
tcells
"Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.09.03....@yahoo.com...
> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 12:39:27 +1000, tcells wrote:
>
snip
> > lots more vitality is
> >> >> *always* very helpful. It trades off against everything
> >> >> else including gear and stat point allocation.
>
> Okay, I see the confusion. It is a quantifier scoping problem.
> I'm saying that extra vitality is is always a good thing
> (*for every* build it can help)
and I'm saying it is not always a good thing because in practical
circumstances it comes at an expense eg blocking or fhr or resists
and also that there are many
> choice situations (*there exist some* situations) where the fact
> that the build has access to this extra vitality allows it
> to improve in other ways - for example: obtaining high
> blocking with a shield that has lower block,
having a high block shield without the dex to improve your blocking is
pointless in mature chars. Your block is still going to be around 5%.
Besides that, I can't think of anyway which vit is going to help you use
that shield, str is the stat which allows you to carry it and dex the stat
which makes it effective.
getting
> a better strength bonus to a melee attack while keeping
> a given level of vitality,
how? I'm not following your line of though here at all :(
wearing slightly less resist
> gear in favor of some other gear attribute because for
> a built with twice the vitality, every attack is only
> half as damage as a percentage of total life.
>
this isn't what you're saying at all. Again taking your "vit is best" line
of thought, a 3 p ruby breast plate is better than a vipermagi because it
increases your HP. If you're talking opportunity cost then you've placed
the points in vit rather than str so your options are not going to be as
broad.
What I think you're meaning to say is that with the higher life you might
need less resists. There's certainly some truth to this *but* it's is much
safer to have a balance of life and resists.
> The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
> allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
> all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
> was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
>
>
but if you're saying "all other things being equal then more vit is better",
it's not saying much because all things being equal then more str is good,
so too is more dex and more energy.
>
>
> > Are you recommending a melee build with 500 HP??????
> >>
> >>
> > not at all. However, if you have a SS melee build with 500HP then you
> > are better off spending points to maintain a max block at the expense of
> > vit rather than visa versa.
>
> I think that depends how one plays. First, I assume we are talking
> about PvM, right?
yes
One fact to take note is that the damage
> from individual monster physical attacks is actually surprisingly
> low. Stats are listed here on Arreat Summit:
>
> http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5.shtml
>
> Do the thought experiment of guessing what you think the
> damage of a Blood Lord on hell level is and then looking
> at what AS says:
>
> http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5g-bloodlord.shtml
>
> Same with Blunderbore:
>
> http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5g-blunderbore.shtml
>
I'm well aware of these figures, I doubt their accuracy. But regardless of
that, you don't build for normal monsters, it's bosses which you must build
for to be successful.
However, let's use the figures:
I'll base it on my ldr FO/FB sorc because she's handy to check stats with.
About 200 points sunk into dex, this means the equivalent sorc investing
those points in vit will have ~1500 hp and my sorc has ~1100.
it will take about 20 slinger spears to kill you (hehe now if anyone really
thinks they can survive 20 with 1500 life and no block dream on). So 20
shots and you're dead. Now, only 5 are actually going to hit my sorc as she
has 75% blocking, so she takes 375 damage. Sorc with max block and less vit
is killing monsters and has 725 life left whilst her companion who has spent
200 more points on vit and had 1500 life is dead.
> Of course Champions, etc. can be multiples of these figures,
> but much of their damage is often elemental as well, and
> probably not all that high since pure physical damage from even
> the Act bosses on hell level is fairly modest.
>
> So really, the places where a char takes a lot of physical
> damage that can potentially be blocked, are either from big
> gangs of archers or from getting caught in the middle of
> a crowd of attackers. So if one wants to play in a style
> that involves taking on the crowds head on, then max
> block is irreplaceable. However, if one is willing to
> be tactical against the crowds, then the equation moves
> more in favor of vitality. So for a char that can
> attack from a distance, like the Fireball/FO sorc, I
> do favor vitality at the expense of blocking, but I
> take my time with the archers, etc, treating them
> with a lot of respect.
>
This is a very good point, in favour of what I'm saying.
My FO/FB sorc has max block and she seldom needs treat these packs with much
respect. Yours, with substantially more life *needs* treat them with
respect because she is far more fragile and dies far more quickly. The
difference being that you are losing life at a substantially faster rate
than mine.
I'll daresay that there are times when with max block I can knock over
crowds of archers, slingers and quill rats which would have you dead on bnet
simply due to the vaguaries of lag. It's not because of better playing but
simply because i'm blocking 75% of incomings where as you're needing to deal
with them using your life reserves.
The particular char which I'm talking about here is my current ldr sorc, and
she's not twinked to the gills as such, I expect SvH had a little chuckle
when I accidentally ditched a 21 life lc yesterday and he thought I was
turfing it as an ided reject - she's got 3 such charms :)
it's dependent on leech and killing time.
>
> >not if you've got a mix of PI non PI
> > which you need to leech from
>
> Then it's good to have control of which monster you
> attacking, so DT has a key advantage.
> The more important advantage is that it gets
> the first kill quickly and then Death Sentry can
> be applied.
>
actually DT sucks at this because the reality of bnet is that often the
monster is not where you're seeing it. you can quite easily be targetting
the wrong monster or monster at the back of a small crowd (which of course
you won't be making contact with). If you could have perfect aiming and
lightning fast reflexes you might havce a point, but I have niether. Now if
you add something like cold damage, slow monster or KB into the equation
then you can see that you're going to be slowing/kbing 4 monsters which were
wailing oin you rather than one and having the other 3 still hitting you.
So you can be leeching off two and negating the attacks of two PIs.
Throwing DT into the equation is rather silly, I'll couter your DT girl and
up her with a trapper - which do you think is going to level faster now ;p
> > and besides that CoS, MB and a much more
> > powerfulk minion than anything available to the druid. Different damage
> > levels as well.
>
> But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot
> for HC type safety and the Kicker is better than the
> Zealot for SC type killing/leveling speed.
>
the kicker falls over at later levels due to boots. The paladin simply has
far better options for attack.
All in all I tend to see wolves fall over more quickly than zealots.
I've seen shiftlet take out okies reasonably quickly with his ranger but
this isn't a full zealot build even though he does zeal. My old ranger
could take them out all right with just fana but that was 1.09 and he's gone
awol :( My full zealot (lvl89) only has the problem of his merc getting IMed
as he can take them out very fast (IIRC last time I ran him and looked he
has doing 9k damage, but that was with someone elses might merc along and of
course a good fana bonus too). I prefer to let my merc handle them due to
lag, if I need handle them then I switch to vengence (1 point natural) with
a conviction of 11 (2 points natural) so that's >2k vengence with -80
resists and -85% DR.
AR from fana for missile purposes can reasonably be expected to be a min of
150% for a mature zealot, and usually a fair bit higher.
The wolf doesn't have the option of throwing, it's not there.
>
>
> > having a chioce of auras to choose from (HF and
> > sanctuary can figure here as well as salvation which is often over
> > looked) work to the paladin's advantage. Another tactic in these
> > situations which has not been brought up is conversion.
>
> Tricky and also slow.
I'm not suggesting using conversion for killing, rather it does go toward
nullifying the advantage of the druid spreading what's being targetted.
Remember too that with conversion you're not only increasing your friendly
targets by one for each convert but also reducing hostiles by one. It's not
that tricky to use, well at least the way I tend to use it, throw on HF then
simply wack on a skull or two in order to open a path to the nasty you wish
to get to; and getting to the okie behind the horde is a problem for both
the druid and paladin.
In the same category, the Wolf could
> get Spirit of the Barbs and use the Dire Wolves to reverse
> IM all the Melee monsters.
>
never tried that approach with a druid, but here you're relying on it for
damage (which I'm not giving as the reason for using conversion) and
dropping the oak sage ;)
>
> > I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts in particular on using hunger
> > in these situations.
>
> I think that without synergy, both FireClaws and Hunger kill more
> slowly than, say, using Fury with a doubly shael'd (5FPS) 1-400 damage
> tomb wand along with Crushing Blow gear and and perhaps a Tiamat's
>
it mightn't kill as fast, that's not quite the point which I'm thinking
about, what you're after is a way to safely deal with the okie so you can
then turn around and dispatch the other nasties. Dealing with him quickly
is of course important though as you don't want 5 or 6 knights wailing on
you while still dealing with the okie, but one or two should be ok.
Under such circumstances my hunch would be that a SS would be better than a
taimats even though your typical fury wolf wouldn't have the dex to make
blocking a real consideration - I'm thinking about the elemenatl damages
from tia vs the DRed from stormy. 120 unaided elemental (okies are CI) vs
the damage reduction from SS.
CB gear might be a meaningful consideration, likely it's only going to come
from goreriders, maybe gloves as well. Interestingly, taking this into
consideration, and the fact that you can't fury safely with the
glimmershreds this would also point to the 2 shael wand with some CB and
fury being the best option.
Hunger is one skill I must get around to really playing with one day.
> > But if either char
> >> is in a team game then they will let teammates mostly kill in that area
> >> and if either char is soloing just for XP or MF, they will be tempted
> >> skip the randomly spawned OKs in WK and try for a better roll. At
> >> least that would be the smart play.
> >>
> >>
> > I agree with the team bit, but skipping for a reroll, particularly in
> > HC, is not how I see that the game should be played.
>
> It isn't necessary to re=roll if one is just going for the onetime
> quest. Being careful will work too. I'm not sure that doing a
> zillion Baal runs is really a great example of playing any particular
> game.
for mature chars, unfortunately that is the only real option for them
Suffice it to say that I wouldn't pick the Wolf or the Zealot
> if that was my plan.
>
heh very true.
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>I made a game today called "buyeth stormlas" and while waiting hoping
>someone would show up, I decided to do some MFing, since the character I
>created the game with had around 300 MF on him...in that one game, I got
>Titans, Shaft, Ginthers Rift(oh well), and Sazabi's armor...not to mention
>several more normal non noteworthy uniques and low level set pieces...
I'm not sure if a bit of tcells rubbed off on you, or the other way
around. ;-)
Nice-ish seed last game for me last run... Gheeds and a Magewrath on
the way down to the countess (just an el and an eth from the old girl
herself though), and a Stealskull from Andariel. I hit
Rakanishu/Griswold, Bone Ash, and Mephisto after that, and had a
wander around a level 85 area, but nothing more came of the game.
tcells
snip
> > Offensively - Grizzly is better for applying concentrated damage to one
> > target in a pack, for shutting it down (killing it) faster. The dires
> > have a tendency to at times split off and engage different targets in a
> > mob.
>
> Right, but the Wolf himself is so much better against a target
> that can be physically damaged with Crushing blow that the
> situations where this would be important are probably restricted
> to things like dealing with a LEB or FEB where the grizz will
> die pretty quickly anyway.
you're talking Were Wolf here and not dire wolf right?
(just concerned that there might be a trick with DWs and CB I'd never known
about).
What needs be factored into DW vs Grizzly is the grizzly can kb and stun
which against small groups can often mean a more manageable situation. Any
druid having DWs should have the extra point invested in grizzly though as
he's able to deal with different situations much better than putting the
extra poijnt into DWs (unless DWs can CB, which would surprise the heck out
of me)
snippo
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>The particular char which I'm talking about here is my current ldr sorc, and
>she's not twinked to the gills as such, I expect SvH had a little chuckle
>when I accidentally ditched a 21 life lc yesterday and he thought I was
>turfing it as an ided reject - she's got 3 such charms :)
And the barb was still using a few 8 and 10 scs, so he was already
licking his lips. ;-)
Shiflet
> Yes its possible. In the particular situation you describe
> (good leech potential compared to damage) the Druid would be better
> off swinging a slightly slower but significantly higher damage
> two handed weapon.
He'll be leeching more per hit, but he'll be taking far more hits without
blocking, too.
> In some sense, that is the tradeoff the Pally is making all the time since
he basically takes
> damage twice as fast as a percentage of vitality.
Except he's also attacking faster, and leeching it back faster. He's also
either blocking more(pally gets 75% block easy with Holy Shield and thus
doesn't need as much dex as the druid to keep max block), or blocking the
same, but with less dex invested and more natural vita to at least partially
compensate for the druid's Oak(not to mention, pallies get 1 more life per
vita point and .5 extra life per level up, so that also helps them at least
compensate a bit). Plus, the paladin will have much more defense most
likely, again, meaning he takes less hits.
> More typically one adjusts one's playing style to be optimal
> at the given level of death risk one is comfortable with.
> The char with the larger life ball can either die less
> often or retreat less often with the same freq of deaths.
I'd like to see your wolf die less often than my zealot, or for that matter,
retreat less often.
> If one's perspective is that a death here and there is okay,
> and one has good enough gear so as not to be at risk in
> most situations, then I can see where char with slightly faster
> killing speed being preferred because the prob. of both
> death and need to retreat have been pinned at sufficiently
> low levels.
Except for me, a death is NOT okay. But he does have good enough gear to not
be at risk in, well, nearly any situation. AND he kills faster.
> Yes, there may not be any physical attacks that take more than
> 1/12 of the Druids life at a high level.
You've never faced charging reanimated hordes, have you? They can take 300
life off in one charge...that will be 1/12 the life of even most druids.
> Also I generally find
> that a bit of FHR from gear and charms often prevents noticing
> recovery in PvM over long stretches of play.
I rarely notice hit recovery either. And let's compare, while we're at it. A
druid needs 86% FHR to hit 6 frame recovery, doable, but requires a rather
high amount of dedication, something most players won't have(do you have
that much?), meaning 7 is semi-common, and even THAT requires 54% FHR,
something many players don't have. A pally needs 27% to hit the 6 frames,
and with the fairly easily obtainable 48%, he can get down to 5 frame
recovery(this is what my zealot has, 50% FHR), and if he wants to make the
same dedication to FHR as the druid needs to get 6 frames and hit 86%, the
pally will be down to 4 frames.
> I was thinking of the Carrion vine. It's a bit hard to hit,
Not for enemies it isn't...when I played druids, the vine always fell
immediately upon hitting a mob of more than 2-3 enemies...
> so with max Oak Sage it survives as a target for a little while and can be
> recast.
Druid vines and spirits both fall rather quickly, from what I've seen.
> Right, but the Wolf himself is so much better against a target
> that can be physically damaged with Crushing blow
Hmm, on the subject of CB, a pally will be attacking faster and thus will
able to get more CBs in per time span, too. Again, faster kills.
> I talked about this in another post. I don't see throwing as a
> very practical solution on late hell level for a Zealot,
OH? That's interesting, as I have 2(well, 3 actually, but one is a mule)
paladins who are fully capable zealots, one keeps a bow on switch, the other
keeps a throwing weapon. They both work effectively, and neither will work
for a druid. Tcells has even seen the bow user work, and can vouch for it's
practicallity.
Shiflet
"tcells" <tce...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2pqgrqF...@uni-berlin.de...
> All in all I tend to see wolves fall over more quickly than zealots.
Likewise.
> I've seen shiftlet take out okies reasonably quickly with his ranger but
> this isn't a full zealot build even though he does zeal.
Well, actually, yes and no...by today's standards he's not on a full zealot
build, but by 09 standards where he was designed he was capable of being
played as a full zealot...he still can, really, but without zeal maxed and
with no sacrifice aside from the 1 point pre-req, he won't be doing the same
damage as a likewise equipped 1.10 pure zealot.
And in case L2K was curious, my "impractical" bow does around 1.5-5.6k
damage per shot. My other zealot, the one with the impractical throwing
weapons, does around 1k-3.3k damage per throw, with a stack size of 180 and
self replenishment. So tell me, again, how it will take me a "good while"
and perhaps a "few trips to the blacksmith shop" to use a ranged attack to
kill an enemy with 5-9k life? There are a lot of effective ranged weapons a
zealot can keep on switch to deal with okie situations-Gimmers work, though
you may have to chop a path to the okie, Lacerators(what I use, in ethereal
form) work even better, as in a couple of throws, enemies between me and the
okie will either be fleeing(50% chance), or be amped(and will thus not last
as long), Buriza works(100% pierce, screw anything between you and the
okie), an upped one even more, and I'd like to try Widowmaker too(guided).
WF and it's knockback can also potentially get enemies out of the way. Both
the bow user and the thrower have around an 80% chance or more of hitting
with just fana, so while there will be more whiffs than if he was zealing,
he can still hit most of the time.
> AR from fana for missile purposes can reasonably be expected to be a min
of
> 150% for a mature zealot, and usually a fair bit higher.
Yep
> The wolf doesn't have the option of throwing, it's not there.
Yep, not at all.
> I'm not suggesting using conversion for killing, rather it does go toward
> nullifying the advantage of the druid spreading what's being targetted.
> Remember too that with conversion you're not only increasing your friendly
> targets by one for each convert but also reducing hostiles by one. It's
not
> that tricky to use, well at least the way I tend to use it, throw on HF
then
> simply wack on a skull or two in order to open a path to the nasty you
wish
> to get to; and getting to the okie behind the horde is a problem for both
> the druid and paladin.
Yep, and even here the pally has the advantage. Conversion's a nice idea,
never though of using it like that. And as mentioned, he can also use Buriza
to pierce and hit the okie directly regardless of the horde, or he can use
the monster flee on Lacerators to do the same...and of course, he could also
brute force throw his way to them, using Gimmers, but that's not ideal for
me.
> never tried that approach with a druid, but here you're relying on it for
> damage (which I'm not giving as the reason for using conversion) and
> dropping the oak sage ;)
...negating the big life advantage, yes?;-)
Not counting that he has less life for his minions, too, and the damage
returned is actually kinda piddly, in the scheme of things...
> CB gear might be a meaningful consideration, likely it's only going to
come
> from goreriders, maybe gloves as well.
Duress is another possibilty, as well.
Shiflet
> Yep, and even here the pally has the advantage. Conversion's a nice idea,
> never though of using it like that.
And on the subject, does Conversion still work like it did in 09, where once
the monster uncoverted it was essentially 1 hit away from death, no matter
what it's life was prior to conversion, and no matter how little damage it
took while converted?
Mark
>
> Not hardly-you have to either cast them constantly, and against something
> like gloams, it doesn't matter anyways, as their attacks pierce.
That's only a problem if you're in a direct line with the Gloam and your
minion. Most times this is not the case, so the claim that minions will
absorb/redirect some of the damage is absolutely correct.
> Assuming he wasn't lying(and I don't
> believe he was), the barb had almost 8k life,
I find this claim highly dubious. I had an all vitality Bear in 1.09, and
with a maxed OS, and L40 BO at L97 I barely broke 7k life. I don't see how a
Barb can possibly get 8k life.
But the FE 'bug' will certainly kill any character regardless of build and
equipment. Someone at the SPF did some testing and reported 64k damage from
it.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
Shiflet
"Mark" <mt...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:M6_Zc.1719$N4...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> That's only a problem if you're in a direct line with the Gloam and your
> minion. Most times this is not the case, so the claim that minions will
> absorb/redirect some of the damage is absolutely correct.
A melee druid isn't a summoner necro...often, him and his minions will be
close together...he doesn't just stand back idly while a massive horde
kills, he's up on the front lines too.
> I find this claim highly dubious. I had an all vitality Bear in 1.09, and
> with a maxed OS, and L40 BO at L97 I barely broke 7k life. I don't see how
a
> Barb can possibly get 8k life.
Barbs get 4 life per vita point-druids get 2, that's 2 lvls of vita to match
1 level from a barb. Barbs get 2 life per level up, druids get 1.5, so at
lvl 80, barb has 40 more life than the druid will, which will in turn be
boosted by BO and Oak. He also got 30 vita from ebotd, which is another 120
life right there, again, boosted more by Oak/BO. Additionally, the oak sage
was from a wind druid...and since they a)load up on +skills, and b)the oak
bug is fixed now, so that levels of oak over 20 actually add like they're
supposed to, I suspect the oak was giving more life to us than yours was.
And was your druid running around with a lot of 3/20/20 charms? The barb
said he was using a bunch of 3/20/20's and a perfect stats annihlus(another
80 life), so I wouldn't find 8k too unbelievable...
> But the FE 'bug' will certainly kill any character regardless of build and
> equipment. Someone at the SPF did some testing and reported 64k damage
from
> it.
Yeah, I believe that, truely insane damage.
> Regards-
> Mark
>
> Bongo-Fury
>
>
short
short - and where's Marshall??
short
the Kicker, and can't seem to get one to drop.
Meanie!
> > I had a couple of nice hits from doing clears pindle's garden last
> > night (nothing from the big guy himself though) - a cold damage/20
> > life sc (went to the zealot), and a 45 mana/37 life grand. :-)
> >
>
> a nice pair indeed
>
>
Yuppers, pretty nice!
short
short
>
> Gimmershred
> Flying Axe
>
> Throw Damage: (39-46) To (171-204) (105-125 Avg)
> One-Hand Damage: (44-52) To (169-201) (106.5-126.5 Avg)
> Required Level: 70
> Required Strength: 88
> Required Dexterity: 108
> Base Weapon Speed: [10]
> Max Stack: (240)
> +160-210% Enhanced Damage (varies)
> Adds 218-483 Fire Damage
> Adds 29-501 Lightning Damage
> Adds 176-397 Cold Damage, 4 sec. Duration (Normal)
> +30% Increased Attack Speed
> Increased Stack Size [60]
> (Only Spawns In Patch 1.10 or later)
>
> Okay, I have a couple of these on season 2 ladder, and am currently
> pondering a character or two built around them. I have a few ideas,
> such as a rebuild of my conviction zealot from season 1 (who had poor
> gear and yet turned out to be one of my more enjoyable characters), a
> throwing barbarian (mine last season never got a chance to play with
> some gimmers, alas), or a blade fury assassin, to name just three.
> Does anyone have another gimmershred-using build that they have a soft
> spot for? A frenzy/throw hybrid barb is another that's come up in
> conversation. How about a enchant/throw sorceress with pumped up
> cold and lightning mastery?
>
> Thanks.
>
I tried some Gimmers on my Enchantress, but was seriously underwhelmed. It
might have helped if I had some points in CM and LM, but I didn't have them.
If I had 2, I'd probably go for Frenzy/Throwbarb.
Once my BF/Kicker reaches the lvl requirements I'm going to try them on her,
so in another 15 levels or so I can let you know how that turns out.
short
Last2Know
I wish I could actually see my trenchcoat one of
these days.
Too bad he can't store up any more once the ball is
full to save for those rough patches!
> >
> >> Beyond considerations of hit recovery (total life and
> >> character class both being a factor, of course)/having enough life to
> >> take a few hits in fast succession - 'lucky' rolls from the monsters,
> >> bad combo mods, or lag spikes (and of course the extent of lag spikes
> >> would be more of consideration to some of us than others).
> >>
> >> Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
> >> don't.
> >
> >More typically one adjusts one's playing style to be optimal
> >at the given level of death risk one is comfortable with.
>
> Yes and no. I wasn't making a comment on play style. ;-)
>
> >The char with the larger life ball can either die less
> >often or retreat less often with the same freq of deaths.
>
> Again, yes and no. Yes, if one takes purely in isolation, no if one
> treats as just another factor (the context for the 'just another
> number' comment) - if we take leech purely out of the equation, who
> will die faster, a druid with 2500 life, 2000 defense, and 75% block,
> or a paladin with 1000 life, 10000 defense, and 75% block?
Assuming they didn't trade other more valuable attributes
for greater defense, then they both sound like they have
good enough gear and high enough level that they both of
them shouldn't die in normal game play situations -
no lag, game bugs, stupid IM risks, etc. In the those
kind of unusual situations, I think the Druid with his
greater life and minion decoys will die less often.
Last2Know
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.03....@yahoo.com...
>
> snip
>
> > > Offensively - Grizzly is better for applying concentrated damage to one
> > > target in a pack, for shutting it down (killing it) faster. The dires
> > > have a tendency to at times split off and engage different targets in a
> > > mob.
> >
> > Right, but the Wolf himself is so much better against a target
> > that can be physically damaged with Crushing blow that the
> > situations where this would be important are probably restricted
> > to things like dealing with a LEB or FEB where the grizz will
> > die pretty quickly anyway.
>
> you're talking Were Wolf here and not dire wolf right?
>
> (just concerned that there might be a trick with DWs and CB I'd never known
> about).
Right. I don't know of any trick to use crushing blow with pets.
Not sure if Guillaumes Face helps the Shadow Master or not.
> What needs be factored into DW vs Grizzly is the grizzly can kb and stun
> which against small groups can often mean a more manageable situation. Any
> druid having DWs should have the extra point invested in grizzly though as
> he's able to deal with different situations much better than putting the
> extra poijnt into DWs (unless DWs can CB, which would surprise the heck out
> of me)
But the grizzly only stuns one target at a time and keeps working
on that one target. So I'm still not seeing the exact situation
where you think the bear is better.
Last2Know
> I'd like to see your wolf die less often than my zealot, or for that matter,
> retreat less often.
I don't have a wolf on the new ladder at the moment or even
a char that has reached "mid-level" gear yet. But if
you want to do a tryout sometime with untwinked or lightly
twinked chars of comparable gear we could do that.
> > If one's perspective is that a death here and there is okay,
> > and one has good enough gear so as not to be at risk in
> > most situations, then I can see where char with slightly faster
> > killing speed being preferred because the prob. of both
> > death and need to retreat have been pinned at sufficiently
> > low levels.
>
> Except for me, a death is NOT okay. But he does have good enough gear to not
> be at risk in, well, nearly any situation. AND he kills faster.
Depending on what you mean by "nearly" and "good enough gear",
I basically agree. However, I suspect that my interest in
a character is mostly over by the time he reaches the both
the maturity and gear level that you are calling good enough.
> > Yes, there may not be any physical attacks that take more than
> > 1/12 of the Druids life at a high level.
>
> You've never faced charging reanimated hordes, have you? They can take 300
> life off in one charge...that will be 1/12 the life of even most druids.
Ok, I may have faced them and don't remember. In gameplay,
with some FHR gear, the difference between hit recovery and
stun isn't very salient.
> > Also I generally find
> > that a bit of FHR from gear and charms often prevents noticing
> > recovery in PvM over long stretches of play.
>
> I rarely notice hit recovery either. And let's compare, while we're at it. A
> druid needs 86% FHR to hit 6 frame recovery, doable, but requires a rather
> high amount of dedication, something most players won't have(do you have
> that much?), meaning 7 is semi-common, and even THAT requires 54% FHR,
> something many players don't have. A pally needs 27% to hit the 6 frames,
> and with the fairly easily obtainable 48%, he can get down to 5 frame
> recovery(this is what my zealot has, 50% FHR), and if he wants to make the
> same dedication to FHR as the druid needs to get 6 frames and hit 86%, the
> pally will be down to 4 frames.
I'll take your word for it and happily declare that for a char
with a 4 frame hit recovery, the slightly great frequency
of hit recovery is a non issue.
> > I was thinking of the Carrion vine. It's a bit hard to hit,
>
> Not for enemies it isn't...when I played druids, the vine always fell
> immediately upon hitting a mob of more than 2-3 enemies...
Did you have max Oak Sage with +3 or more to summoning skills?
> > so with max Oak Sage it survives as a target for a little while and can be
> > recast.
>
> Druid vines and spirits both fall rather quickly, from what I've seen.
There is also some technique to keeping the vine in a good place.
It mostly hangs back except where there are corpses, so one can
pick out individual targets and then keep the battle slightly
away from that position. On the other hand, if it is eating
carrion right in the middle of the battle, then at least you
are sure that it is providing a brief distraction to some
monsters. HF merc also helps it to finish eating and disappear
before the slower monsters can hit it.
> > Right, but the Wolf himself is so much better against a target
> > that can be physically damaged with Crushing blow
>
> Hmm, on the subject of CB, a pally will be attacking faster and thus will
> able to get more CBs in per time span, too. Again, faster kills.
True. For killing speed, I like the Kicker with crushing blow
and death sentry even better.
Last2Know
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.03....@yahoo.com...
> > Of course Champions, etc. can be multiples of these figures,
> > but much of their damage is often elemental as well, and
> > probably not all that high since pure physical damage from even
> > the Act bosses on hell level is fairly modest.
>
> I have my doubts about the Summit's listing of damage on those
> figures...I've had chars lose 300-500 life in ONE hit from a normal, non
> champ, non minion reanimated horde, and neither of their attacks is listed
> as dealing 500 damage.
Was that monster getting an aura from another boss?
Or were you lagging and actually taking multiple hits?
>Several other enemies I've had similar experiences
> with, like bloodlords. Someone else once suggested that the AS lists the
> BASE damage for the monsters, their "listed weapon damage" essentially, and
> doesn't factor in the damage boost from the skills they use(Charge for
> snakes and returneds, Frenzy from bloodlords, Smite from blunderbores, etc),
> and I'm inclined to believe this.
Possible, though the site does list damage from multiple different
attacks per monster.
>And of course, it also doesn't include
> things like inherent elemental damage or other special mods(like the magic
> damage on a bloodlord's melee attack, plus the possible elemental they can
> do even as normal monsters, or an urdar's crushing blow).
Right. I'm advocating a Wolf build with high vitality,
high blocking, max resists, Cyclone Armor, and absorb
where possible. I'm willing to sacrifice defense for those
things and others.
Last2Know
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.03....@yahoo.com...
> > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 12:39:27 +1000, tcells wrote:
> >
>
> snip
>
> > > lots more vitality is
> > >> >> *always* very helpful. It trades off against everything
> > >> >> else including gear and stat point allocation.
> >
> > Okay, I see the confusion. It is a quantifier scoping problem.
> > I'm saying that extra vitality is is always a good thing
> > (*for every* build it can help)
>
> and I'm saying it is not always a good thing because in practical
> circumstances it comes at an expense eg blocking or fhr or resists
Compared to the zealot, the wolf can easily get twice as
much vitality while having max resists, max blocking,
and more than adquate fhr.
> and also that there are many
> > choice situations (*there exist some* situations) where the fact
> > that the build has access to this extra vitality allows it
> > to improve in other ways - for example: obtaining high
> > blocking with a shield that has lower block,
>
> having a high block shield without the dex to improve your blocking is
> pointless in mature chars.
Yes, but I was assuming that one is putting in enough dex
points to get the desired blocking level, and that these
points are "made available" by reaching the desired level
of vitality without putting them in life. That's what
an example of a tradeoff: if one doesn't think more vitality
is really needed, then the stat points can be used for
something else.
> getting
> > a better strength bonus to a melee attack while keeping
> > a given level of vitality,
>
> how? I'm not following your line of though here at all :(
For example, the stat points can be used for strength
to increase melee damage or be able to wear a different
piece of elite gear.
> wearing slightly less resist
> > gear in favor of some other gear attribute because for
> > a built with twice the vitality, every attack is only
> > half as damage as a percentage of total life.
> >
>
> this isn't what you're saying at all. Again taking your "vit is best" line
> of thought, a 3 p ruby breast plate is better than a vipermagi because it
> increases your HP. If you're talking opportunity cost then you've placed
> the points in vit rather than str so your options are not going to be as
> broad.
No, you are ignoring my clarification and again insisting
on a silly reading of what I wrote to mean that any tradeoff
in favor of vitality over something else is good.
It isn't polite to keep mis-reading that way after I've
already clarified the point in excruciating syntactic
detail.
> > The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
> > allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
> > all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
> > was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
> >
> >
>
> but if you're saying "all other things being equal then more vit is better",
> it's not saying much because all things being equal then more str is good,
> so too is more dex and more energy.
That is part of what I'm saying. Someone previously in this
thread claimed that more vitality didn't matter beyond a
certain point. I disagree with that because I think it
always leads to either less risk of dieing or less need
for caution at a given risk level. But I'm saying more, by
pointing out that even if you agree with that person that
a given level of vitality is sufficient, the extra life
boosts of the WW allow you to get to that level with
fewer stat points that can be used for other things.
I fully agree that your sorc is better in *that* situation.
But my sorce will not die there because she will
not wait around to die slowly from slinger spears,
(however many it takes to kill her). In fact, she
can boost her life by drinking ordinary red potions
faster than most slinger packs can hurt her. So it
is okay for her to be less strong in that context
in order to have more chance of survival in other
contexts where she had twice as much more time to
react and teleport away.
> > Of course Champions, etc. can be multiples of these figures,
> > but much of their damage is often elemental as well, and
> > probably not all that high since pure physical damage from even
> > the Act bosses on hell level is fairly modest.
> >
> > So really, the places where a char takes a lot of physical
> > damage that can potentially be blocked, are either from big
> > gangs of archers or from getting caught in the middle of
> > a crowd of attackers. So if one wants to play in a style
> > that involves taking on the crowds head on, then max
> > block is irreplaceable. However, if one is willing to
> > be tactical against the crowds, then the equation moves
> > more in favor of vitality. So for a char that can
> > attack from a distance, like the Fireball/FO sorc, I
> > do favor vitality at the expense of blocking, but I
> > take my time with the archers, etc, treating them
> > with a lot of respect.
> >
>
> This is a very good point, in favour of what I'm saying.
>
> My FO/FB sorc has max block and she seldom needs treat these packs with much
> respect. Yours, with substantially more life *needs* treat them with
> respect because she is far more fragile and dies far more quickly. The
> difference being that you are losing life at a substantially faster rate
> than mine.
See above. I agree with you about the specific situation, and
therefore was happy to mention it for illustration, but disagree
that it is good point for your side of the debate.
> I'll daresay that there are times when with max block I can knock over
> crowds of archers, slingers and quill rats which would have you dead on bnet
> simply due to the vaguaries of lag.
I'm claiming that there are more frequent situations in which your sorc
would die from lag before sensing it and teleporting/running
away than mine would. That's my sense anyway. If I saw that specific
point differently, then I would do the build your way. So in this
sense we mostly agree about the concepts, if not the empirical
distribution of phenomena.
I don't normally have that problem with my broadband connection.
Do you play with a modem?
> If you could have perfect aiming and
> lightning fast reflexes you might havce a point, but I have niether. Now if
> you add something like cold damage, slow monster or KB into the equation
> then you can see that you're going to be slowing/kbing 4 monsters which were
> wailing oin you rather than one and having the other 3 still hitting you.
> So you can be leeching off two and negating the attacks of two PIs.
I regard standing in a crowd like that as too dangerous for an
assassin or a zealot that doesn't have really good gear.
> Throwing DT into the equation is rather silly, I'll couter your DT girl and
> up her with a trapper - which do you think is going to level faster now ;p
For solo play my DT build with Death Sentry, venom, etc. is
more versatile. I guess the lightning Trapper can find an
area without lightning immunes and level faster there.
> > > and besides that CoS, MB and a much more
> > > powerfulk minion than anything available to the druid. Different damage
> > > levels as well.
> >
> > But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot
> > for HC type safety and the Kicker is better than the
> > Zealot for SC type killing/leveling speed.
> >
>
> the kicker falls over at later levels due to boots.
Not sure what you mean. The kicker has a faster
attack and can usually get a higher crushing blow
percentage, so it can kill a single target faster,
and then it can blow up other targets with Death
Sentry.
Shiflet
> Was that monster getting an aura from another boss?
> Or were you lagging and actually taking multiple hits?
Nope, neither. ONE hit, 300-500 life, happens regularly with that class of
enemies, same with snakes.
> Possible, though the site does list damage from multiple different
> attacks per monster.
It lists 2 attacks per monster...including enemies with only 1 attack, and
also including enemies with more than two attacks...
> Right. I'm advocating a Wolf build with high vitality,
> high blocking, max resists, Cyclone Armor, and absorb
> where possible. I'm willing to sacrifice defense for those
> things and others.
I still don't see why you're listing cyclone armor, cause without synergies,
it adds almost nothing. One solid hit will drop it. And my paladin can get
high blocking, high resists, and absorb AND still only get hit 15% of the
time cause he has 12k defense, and out of that, 75% of them are blocked. You
may have twice the life, but you'll be taking twice the hits. But you'll
also be hitting slower and killing less effectively.
Shiflet
> I don't have a wolf on the new ladder at the moment or even
> a char that has reached "mid-level" gear yet. But if
> you want to do a tryout sometime with untwinked or lightly
> twinked chars of comparable gear we could do that.
I don't play ladder, and I don't do untwinked.
> Depending on what you mean by "nearly" and "good enough gear",
> I basically agree. However, I suspect that my interest in
> a character is mostly over by the time he reaches the both
> the maturity and gear level that you are calling good enough.
My endgame setup for most melee characters is finished at lvl 74, though
Stormlash can boost it to 82...
> Did you have max Oak Sage with +3 or more to summoning skills?
Of course, that's pretty much cookie cutter druid setup.
> True. For killing speed, I like the Kicker with crushing blow
> and death sentry even better.
Kicker hits one enemy at a time, by the time your DS has killed the mob, so
will I.
Mark
> > That's only a problem if you're in a direct line with the Gloam and your
> > minion. Most times this is not the case, so the claim that minions will
> > absorb/redirect some of the damage is absolutely correct.
>
> A melee druid isn't a summoner necro...often, him and his minions will be
> close together...he doesn't just stand back idly while a massive horde
> kills, he's up on the front lines too.
Thank you for supporting my claim. A melee Druid will be fighting in the
front line with his minions beside him, unlike a Necro who will stand behind
his minions. So Gloam attacks that pierce his minions cannot also attack the
Druid. And given that the minions will attract a certain percentage of the
Gloams attacks, the Druid will suffer corresponding fewer attacks himself,
compared to a Pally in an identical situation.
> > I find this claim highly dubious. I had an all vitality Bear in 1.09,
and
> > with a maxed OS, and L40 BO at L97 I barely broke 7k life. I don't see
how
> a
> > Barb can possibly get 8k life.
>
> Barbs get 4 life per vita point-druids get 2, that's 2 lvls of vita to
match
> 1 level from a barb. Barbs get 2 life per level up, druids get 1.5, so at
> lvl 80, barb has 40 more life than the druid will, which will in turn be
> boosted by BO and Oak. He also got 30 vita from ebotd, which is another
120
> life right there, again, boosted more by Oak/BO. Additionally, the oak
sage
> was from a wind druid...and since they a)load up on +skills, and b)the oak
> bug is fixed now, so that levels of oak over 20 actually add like they're
> supposed to, I suspect the oak was giving more life to us than yours was.
> And was your druid running around with a lot of 3/20/20 charms? The barb
> said he was using a bunch of 3/20/20's and a perfect stats
annihlus(another
> 80 life), so I wouldn't find 8k too unbelievable...
I agree, OS above L20 will be a benefit now. What level was the Barb? I was
L97, I doubt he was that high in 1.10. A Barb may get more life per level
and more life per vitality point, but the multiplicative nature of a
shapeshifter will more than counterbalance this. At L20 Lycanthropy for
example, a Bear will have his base life multiplied by 2.65. So on a per
level basis if both invest all points into vitality, the Barb will gain 22
life while a Bear will get almost 30.5 (even higher with + skills to
Lycan.). A while back someone on AGD2 asked what the highest life character
possible was. And the Bear was the winner. My Bear was stocked with Vita
charms, and he had a 3 socket mask and 4 socket armor w/ P Rubies. My Bear
also had 50ish base strength, and the rest in vitality. Sorry, but I still
find the claim of an 8k life Barb to be dubious.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:defba027.04090...@posting.google.com...
>> Was that monster getting an aura from another boss?
>> Or were you lagging and actually taking multiple hits?
>
> Nope, neither. ONE hit, 300-500 life, happens regularly with that class of
> enemies, same with snakes.
I'm willing to believe you and that would make those some of
the most damaging single attacks in the game and they are
not attacks that a single monster can repeat quickly.
>> Possible, though the site does list damage from multiple different
>> attacks per monster.
>
> It lists 2 attacks per monster...including enemies with only 1 attack, and
> also including enemies with more than two attacks...
>
>> Right. I'm advocating a Wolf build with high vitality,
>> high blocking, max resists, Cyclone Armor, and absorb
>> where possible. I'm willing to sacrifice defense for those
>> things and others.
>
> I still don't see why you're listing cyclone armor, cause without synergies,
> it adds almost nothing.
I would add Cyclone Armor last to the build, and then only after
the Dire Wolves are getting enough life not to die often.
But it is still possible to add 200-300 extra hit points against
elemental attacks.
>One solid hit will drop it.
Perhaps, usually a few hits. How many times per second does
the Wolf take hits. If it typically buys half a second extra
response time that is significant to chances for living through
a tough situation.
>And my paladin can get
> high blocking, high resists, and absorb AND still only get hit 15% of the
> time cause he has 12k defense, and out of that, 75% of them are blocked. You
> may have twice the life, but you'll be taking twice the hits. But you'll
> also be hitting slower and killing less effectively.
First of all, defense only helps against certain types of hits.
Second I don't know how you get to "twice the hits".
Third, we keep coming back to the point that you want to make
the context for the comparison one in which your char already
has good enough gear and high enough level to make the game easy
for most reasonable builds. I've repeatedly conceded to the
superiority of the Zealot for SC leveling with that level of gear, while
noting that a) I'm not so interested in that context and b) the Zealot is
also not the character I would pick for power leveling. It's
gradually dawning on me that to you that context is obviously
the most important one, or at least the main one you care about.
So in that sense, we are talking past each other.
Shiflet
"Mark" <mt...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
> Thank you for supporting my claim. A melee Druid will be fighting in the
> front line with his minions beside him,
And gloams can get beside you, too. They can also fire diagonally.
Let's say A's are dire wolves, and W is the druid himself and G's are
gloams.
G___G
___A___G
__DA
A___
Any of those gloams firing at the minions has a good chance of hitting the
druid as well.
> I agree, OS above L20 will be a benefit now. What level was the Barb?
Lvl 91 or 92, forget exactly.
> My Bear was stocked with Vita charms,
Perfect ones? Barb also had(well, claimed to have) a 20 stats Anni, which is
80 life on 1 SC slot...
> and he had a 3 socket mask and 4 socket armor w/ P Rubies.
Barb was using Valor I believe, not sure what helm. Shako, I think, but I
won't swear to it. Dunno about other gear. If he had a perf vita Verdungos,
that's 160 life from his belt slot...
> My Bear also had 50ish base strength, and the rest in vitality. Sorry, but
I still
> find the claim of an 8k life Barb to be dubious.
It may be, but the guy didn't seem to be lying, he seemed genuinely miffed
that he got killed when he shouldn't have. Just for tests, I messed around
with my single player barb using Atma's to give him some gear aimed at
having high life...obviously can't test with lvl 25 or so oak sage, but
without it I got a 99 barb to have 5256 life, and that's with a lot more
than 50 strength. My barb was higher level than his, but mine also had a lot
more in strength than he needed to equip gear, so if the barb was built with
less strength than mine and more vita, it would roughly even out. At level
20, Oak is supposed to add 125% life, so I'm not sure 8k is totally out
there, really...
> Regards-
> Mark
>
> Bongo-Fury
>
>
>
Shiflet
> I'm willing to believe you and that would make those some of
> the most damaging single attacks in the game and they are
> not attacks that a single monster can repeat quickly.
No, but it's just an example of one enemy the arreat summit definitely has
the listed damage wrong, but it's not the only one...
> I would add Cyclone Armor last to the build, and then only after
> the Dire Wolves are getting enough life not to die often.
> But it is still possible to add 200-300 extra hit points against
> elemental attacks.
At lvl 20, unsynergized cyclone armor adds 268 absorbtion...now surely your
melee wolf doesn't have a lvl 20+ cyclone armor? Considering elemental
damage to Cyclone doesn't get reduced by resists, 1 solid gloam blast will
drop that.
> First of all, defense only helps against certain types of hits.
True, but it will help a lot against many of the hard hitters, like
minotaurs and returneds and snakes and such.
> Second I don't know how you get to "twice the hits".
Zealot is hitting faster than the wolf. Perhaps not twice as much, but fast
enough that it makes a difference(even the difference between 4 frames and 5
frames is hugely noticable, much less between 4 and 6 or 4 and 7...)
> Third, we keep coming back to the point that you want to make
> the context for the comparison one in which your char already
> has good enough gear and high enough level to make the game easy
> for most reasonable builds.
The same applies to him at mid-levels, he'll have faster attacks, better def
and blocking, easier ways to deal with PIs, the option for ranged attacks
against IM casters, and more all around versatility and adaptability.
Mark
>
> > Thank you for supporting my claim. A melee Druid will be fighting in the
> > front line with his minions beside him,
>
> And gloams can get beside you, too. They can also fire diagonally.
> Let's say A's are dire wolves, and W is the druid himself and G's are
> gloams.
> G___G
> ___A___G
> __DA
> A___
>
> Any of those gloams firing at the minions has a good chance of hitting the
> druid as well.
Nice diagram, but I specifically said that the Druid would be standing
beside his minions in the front line, not behind them like a Necro or as
shown in your diagram. Gloams are most commonly encountered in the WK, where
there are narrowish passages. So the chances of a Gloam getting beside the
Druid and his minions to fire 'down the line' are highly unlikely. And if
one did get into such a position it would be a rare case. More likely is for
them to be in the front 120° arc, in which case any Gloam attacks on minions
will miss the Druid.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>Considering elemental
>damage to Cyclone doesn't get reduced by resists,
Yeah, what the game really needs is something to stop all those
over-powered elemental druids from just pwning everything...
-- Roy L
Last2Know
> > I would add Cyclone Armor last to the build, and then only after
> > the Dire Wolves are getting enough life not to die often.
> > But it is still possible to add 200-300 extra hit points against
> > elemental attacks.
>
> At lvl 20, unsynergized cyclone armor adds 268 absorbtion...now surely your
> melee wolf doesn't have a lvl 20+ cyclone armor? Considering elemental
> damage to Cyclone doesn't get reduced by resists, 1 solid gloam blast will
> drop that.
If I had a Jalal's, then core of the build I propose would use the
following hard skill points: Oak Sage 20, Lycanthropy 20, Fury 20,
Werewolf 4, Poison Creeper 1, Carrion Vine 1, Feral Rage 1, Rabies 1,
Raven 1, Artic Blast 1, Cyclone Armor 1, Dire Wolf 1. That
is only 74 skill points, and we have 12 plus char level to use.
So by level 80 I have another 18 skill points to use and all the
above non-shape shifting skills are boosted by at least +2 and
probably more depending on my other gear. If I am using a
weapon like Stormlash or Horizon's Tornado then it is more
tempting to put a lot of points on Cyclone Armor to synergize
the Tornadoes, but in any case, the wolves don't do much so long
as they stay alive often enough so it is a matter of taste.
To answer your question directly, yes this build can have about
+20 Cyclone Armor by level 80 and probably would have it by
level 90.
> > First of all, defense only helps against certain types of hits.
>
> True, but it will help a lot against many of the hard hitters, like
> minotaurs and returneds and snakes and such.
The Wolf doesn't have a problem with critters like that unless
they are PE, in which case one uses tactics to take them
on one by one with the weapon switch. Minions make such
tactics a lot easier than for the Pally.
> > Second I don't know how you get to "twice the hits".
>
> Zealot is hitting faster than the wolf. Perhaps not twice as much, but fast
> enough that it makes a difference(even the difference between 4 frames and 5
> frames is hugely noticable, much less between 4 and 6 or 4 and 7...)
We already pegged the attack speed difference at 20%. I actually
thought you were speaking of hits taken there, but that the
2X difference was an exaggeration and I wanted to see the numbers.
In fact, it could be true if both chars were in the 90s and had
awesome gear (say Pally with Holy Shield has 10% to get hit and
Wolf has 20%) but all physical attacks are uninteresting at that
point and the game is easy for both chars with such level and
gear. Which leads us to...
> > Third, we keep coming back to the point that you want to make
> > the context for the comparison one in which your char already
> > has good enough gear and high enough level to make the game easy
> > for most reasonable builds.
>
> The same applies to him at mid-levels, he'll have faster attacks, better def
> and blocking, easier ways to deal with PIs, the option for ranged attacks
> against IM casters, and more all around versatility and adaptability.
My claim is that he will die more without super gear and also that
with an equivalent level of mid-range gear it will be safe for the
Wolf to stand and fight in a more actual game situations. That
is a different, but equally valid definition of versatility.
Shiflet
> If I had a Jalal's, then core of the build I propose would use the
> following hard skill points: Oak Sage 20, Lycanthropy 20, Fury 20,
> Werewolf 4, Poison Creeper 1, Carrion Vine 1, Feral Rage 1, Rabies 1,
> Raven 1, Artic Blast 1, Cyclone Armor 1, Dire Wolf 1. That
> is only 74 skill points, and we have 12 plus char level to use.
> So by level 80 I have another 18 skill points to use and all the
> above non-shape shifting skills are boosted by at least +2 and
> probably more depending on my other gear. If I am using a
> weapon like Stormlash or Horizon's Tornado then it is more
> tempting to put a lot of points on Cyclone Armor to synergize
> the Tornadoes, but in any case, the wolves don't do much so long
> as they stay alive often enough so it is a matter of taste.
> To answer your question directly, yes this build can have about
> +20 Cyclone Armor by level 80 and probably would have it by
> level 90.
And even at that, it adds 268 absorbtion-1 gloam lightning bolt hit will
remove it. And didn't you say you put enough in wolves to give them some
decent life?
> The Wolf doesn't have a problem with critters like that unless
> they are PE, in which case one uses tactics to take them
> on one by one with the weapon switch. Minions make such
> tactics a lot easier than for the Pally.
Against enemies like that, your wolves will be dead in less than 2 seconds,
so either you're recasting them continually, or they help not at all.
> We already pegged the attack speed difference at 20%. I actually
> thought you were speaking of hits taken there, but that the
> 2X difference was an exaggeration and I wanted to see the numbers.
> In fact, it could be true if both chars were in the 90s and had
> awesome gear (say Pally with Holy Shield has 10% to get hit and
> Wolf has 20%)
Wolf will have more than 20%, even with awesome gear.
> My claim is that he will die more without super gear and also that
> with an equivalent level of mid-range gear it will be safe for the
> Wolf to stand and fight in a more actual game situations.
And I disagree. And so do most public gamers apparently, as I see wolves die
more often than zealots.
Shiflet
"Mark" <mt...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
> Nice diagram, but I specifically said that the Druid would be standing
> beside his minions in the front line, not behind them like a Necro or as
> shown in your diagram.
Wolves don't just constantly stand in one place alongside you, they move
around. If you get your wolves to all stand in a line beside you, I'm
impressed, but quite surprised.
> Gloams are most commonly encountered in the WK, where
> there are narrowish passages.
There are also branching passages. ADvance forward down 1 narrow hallway
past another one, get shot at.
> So the chances of a Gloam getting beside the
> Druid and his minions to fire 'down the line' are highly unlikely. And if
> one did get into such a position it would be a rare case. More likely is
for
> them to be in the front 120° arc, in which case any Gloam attacks on
minions
> will miss the Druid.
And as you said, since the hallways are so narrow and cramped, you're even
less likely be moving along like this chorus line you seem to be referring
to...
> Regards-
> Mark
>
> Bongo-Fury
>
>
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:defba027.04090...@posting.google.com...
>> If I had a Jalal's, then core of the build I propose would use the
>> following hard skill points: Oak Sage 20, Lycanthropy 20, Fury 20,
>> Werewolf 4, Poison Creeper 1, Carrion Vine 1, Feral Rage 1, Rabies 1,
>> Raven 1, Artic Blast 1, Cyclone Armor 1, Dire Wolf 1. That
>> is only 74 skill points, and we have 12 plus char level to use.
>> So by level 80 I have another 18 skill points to use and all the
>> above non-shape shifting skills are boosted by at least +2 and
>> probably more depending on my other gear. If I am using a
>> weapon like Stormlash or Horizon's Tornado then it is more
>> tempting to put a lot of points on Cyclone Armor to synergize
>> the Tornadoes, but in any case, the wolves don't do much so long
>> as they stay alive often enough so it is a matter of taste.
>> To answer your question directly, yes this build can have about
>> +20 Cyclone Armor by level 80 and probably would have it by
>> level 90.
>
> And even at that, it adds 268 absorbtion-1 gloam lightning bolt hit will
> remove it.
Fine. I didn't take that damage and I also gained one extra
unit of 'interval between gloam attack' to react to the
situation. If I am very concerned about living then that
is valuable.
> And didn't you say you put enough in wolves to give them some
> decent life?
I said that I give them enough life not to need frequent
recasting. With +3 skills or more (so Oak Sage is at
level 23 or so) then roughly 5 real skill points is
sufficient.
>> The Wolf doesn't have a problem with critters like that unless
>> they are PE, in which case one uses tactics to take them
>> on one by one with the weapon switch. Minions make such
>> tactics a lot easier than for the Pally.
>
> Against enemies like that, your wolves will be dead in less than 2 seconds,
> so either you're recasting them continually, or they help not at all.
This is b.s. and indicates you haven't actually tried the build.
>> We already pegged the attack speed difference at 20%. I actually
>> thought you were speaking of hits taken there, but that the
>> 2X difference was an exaggeration and I wanted to see the numbers.
>> In fact, it could be true if both chars were in the 90s and had
>> awesome gear (say Pally with Holy Shield has 10% to get hit and
>> Wolf has 20%)
>
> Wolf will have more than 20%, even with awesome gear.
It depends on what char level we are talking about.
Once again, it's your example and I'm waiting for your
numbers to show how the Pally has less than half the
chance to get hit with equivalent gear and char level.
>> My claim is that he will die more without super gear and also that
>> with an equivalent level of mid-range gear it will be safe for the
>> Wolf to stand and fight in a more actual game situations.
>
> And I disagree. And so do most public gamers apparently, as I see wolves die
> more often than zealots.
I can't speak intelligently to the problems of random idiots
in public games. I played this build with pretty modest gear
(I was wearing Skin of the Vipermagi, Goblin Toe, and zero)
unique rings or Ammys) and I didn't die soloing hell
level, and I wasn't particularly conservative in play style.
Mark
>
> And as you said, since the hallways are so narrow and cramped, you're even
> less likely be moving along like this chorus line you seem to be referring
> to...
Like everything else, it appears you're right again. How foolish of me to
waste my time with a dissenting opinion. A Druid's minions will never draw
off any fire. And if by some strange occurrence one did, the attack would
always pierce the minion and hit the Druid. So a Druid with minions has
absolutely no defensive advantage over one of your godly Paladins.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
ald
wrote:
>I just want to say that this is better than the old Strafe vs Multi threads.
>
>
>short - and where's Marshall??
I'm ready if he shows up ;-)
ald
"Knowledge is Power"
VK`Sister`ald level 47 Rogue (HF V&K) (RIP :-( )
Matriarch Sis-West level 82 Bowazon (US West)
Champion RingsNThngs level 61 Bowazon (US West)
Slayer ZannEsu-ald level 51 Sorceress (US West)
Matriarch Sis-AR level 99 Bowazon (Ancestral Recall Mod)
Champion Creepy-AR Level 91 Necromancer (AR)
Slayer Zan-AR Level 79 Sorceress (AR)
Slayer SisEight-AR Level 78 Bowazon (AR)
Gems-AR Level 55 Barbarian (AR)
Matriarch Sis-otSEye Level 78 Bowazon (US West, co-op)
BtaSisEight-ald Level 50 Bowazon (LoD 1.10 SP)
Aragorn-AR Level 51 Zealadin (AR)
CotSRSig #16
ald
wrote:
>Yes, there may not be any physical attacks that take more than
>1/12 of the Druids life at a high level. Also I generally find
>that a bit of FHR from gear and charms often prevents noticing
>recovery in PvM over long stretches of play.
And the lack of it, when you're used to having it, is *very*
noticeable. I've noticed this mostly in AR, where the monsters in the
Crypt are *definitely* hitting for more than 1/12 of a level 24
Bowazon's life. In LoD, I usually end up with 10% FHR on hat, armor,
and boots, at least in Act 1/Normal, since there isn't usually any
other mods available that are really worth looking for. In AR, you get
a Tarnhelm and Twitchthroe from Corpsefire, and after killing
Bishibosh you can craft the Horse boots (107% FR/W), although in the
latest version they seem to have upped the level requirement for them,
I haven't crafted a pair yet that didn't require at least level 24.
When my AR Bowazon (ok, *Strafe*azon by that point) was met at the
entrance to the Crypt by a pack of Stygian Dolls, the lack of FHR darn
near killed her, and *did* result in both the death of her Rogue
(unfortunately, not at all an uncommon experience in the Crypt, but
this was almost immediate) and her having to abandon Strafe (going
into hit recovery makes all of the remaining arrows in the Strafe
cycle ineffective, but doesn't stop the cycle, meaning she's going to
get hit and go into hit recovery again before she can start the next
cycle). Even using Normal attack, the hit recovery was *very*
noticeable, but she was eventually able to take out the pack.
Shiflet
"Mark" <mt...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
> Like everything else, it appears you're right again. How foolish of me to
> waste my time with a dissenting opinion. A Druid's minions will never draw
> off any fire. And if by some strange occurrence one did, the attack would
> always pierce the minion and hit the Druid. So a Druid with minions has
> absolutely no defensive advantage over one of your godly Paladins.
They'll draw off fire, that wasn't disputed. Just not enough to make it this
huge advantage that Last is implying it is, it's like a druid with 3 or 5
wolves and lvl 20 non synergized cyclone armor is now immune to gloams. And
a necro is more likely to avoid getting hit by piercing gloam attacks than
the druid is, cause the druid is in the thick of things, and not standing
behind everything, where he can easily dodge them cause he doesn't have to
focus on enemies surrounding him, or where he can easily duck around a
corner/behind a wall/etc.
> Regards-
> Mark
>
> Bongo-Fury
>
>
Shiflet
> Fine. I didn't take that damage and I also gained one extra
> unit of 'interval between gloam attack' to react to the
> situation. If I am very concerned about living then that
> is valuable.
Well, unless that 1 hit was gonna be the one that killed you, it doesn't do
a whole lot...if you coulda survived that hit to begin with, you'd likely
have leeched it back before the second hit came...and if you're that close
to dying from them, you only put off death a second more.
> I said that I give them enough life not to need frequent
> recasting. With +3 skills or more (so Oak Sage is at
> level 23 or so) then roughly 5 real skill points is
> sufficient.
Okay.
> This is b.s. and indicates you haven't actually tried the build.
Lvl 81 druid, maxed oak sage with more +skills than is typical for a
shifter, lvl 12 or so wolves-they fall like dominos against anything that's
actually threatening(sure, they can survive against fallen and such long
enough, but against the things they'd be helpful against, like minotaurs,
urdars, etc, they fall quick).
> It depends on what char level we are talking about.
Any after 24? At most, a solo wolf druid will have around 2.5k def, and even
that's on the high end-at lvl 90, that's still more than a 20% chance of
getting hit. A pally with maxed holy shield can get 8-9k def without even
trying, and a high level one with the "godliest" gear(excluding Exile) can
easily get 12k or more. That's a big difference in chance to get hit.
> Once again, it's your example and I'm waiting for your
> numbers to show how the Pally has less than half the
> chance to get hit with equivalent gear and char level.
Maybe cause chance to get hit is based on defense, and Holy Shield makes
sure that pally will have far more def than the druid will?
> I can't speak intelligently to the problems of random idiots
> in public games. I played this build with pretty modest gear
> (I was wearing Skin of the Vipermagi, Goblin Toe, and zero)
> unique rings or Ammys) and I didn't die soloing hell
> level, and I wasn't particularly conservative in play style.
And a competent zealot could do the same thing. And considering that even
the random idiots in public games do a better job of staying alive with
zealots than they do with shifter druids, well...
Mark
>
> They'll draw off fire, that wasn't disputed. Just not enough to make it
this
> huge advantage that Last is implying it is, it's like a druid with 3 or 5
> wolves and lvl 20 non synergized cyclone armor is now immune to gloams.
And
> a necro is more likely to avoid getting hit by piercing gloam attacks than
> the druid is, cause the druid is in the thick of things, and not standing
> behind everything, where he can easily dodge them cause he doesn't have to
> focus on enemies surrounding him, or where he can easily duck around a
> corner/behind a wall/etc.
I completely disagree, but it's pointless to argue it with you.
Regards-
Mark
Bongo-Fury
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.04....@yahoo.com...
>> Fine. I didn't take that damage and I also gained one extra
>> unit of 'interval between gloam attack' to react to the
>> situation. If I am very concerned about living then that
>> is valuable.
>
> Well, unless that 1 hit was gonna be the one that killed you, it doesn't do
> a whole lot...if you coulda survived that hit to begin with, you'd likely
> have leeched it back before the second hit came...and if you're that close
> to dying from them, you only put off death a second more.
We've been over this ground before, and I'm sorry that I'm
not getting the point across to you. Successful Diablo
game play and character strength is the result of many
factors going the right way and adding together. I think
you actually understand this, but willfully choose to ignore
it when we are comparing the 2500 or so vitality of the Wolf
vs. the 1000 or so vitality of the Paladin with comparable
gear. The 200-300 hit points you are dismissing above is
still 10% of the Wolf's hit points and it would be 25% of
the Pally's.
>> I said that I give them enough life not to need frequent
>> recasting. With +3 skills or more (so Oak Sage is at
>> level 23 or so) then roughly 5 real skill points is
>> sufficient.
>
> Okay.
>
>> This is b.s. and indicates you haven't actually tried the build.
>
> Lvl 81 druid, maxed oak sage with more +skills than is typical for a
> shifter, lvl 12 or so wolves-they fall like dominos against anything that's
> actually threatening(sure, they can survive against fallen and such long
> enough, but against the things they'd be helpful against, like minotaurs,
> urdars, etc, they fall quick).
You said "your wolves will be dead in less than 2 seconds" and
that is what I responded to above. I found them to be helpful
and last a lot longer than that against everything that didn't
do a lot of elemental damage. You claim a difference experience
and I don't know why. Some things to note here are:
1) HF merc is important to this build and helps pets stay
alive longer since enemies are only attacking at half speed.
2) Dire Wolves got important synergies in 1.10 including
life bonuses and resist bonuses. These synergies only
come from hard points and not plus skills
3) Dire Wolves are a lot different than Spirit Wolves.
>> It depends on what char level we are talking about.
>
> Any after 24? At most, a solo wolf druid will have around 2.5k def, and even
> that's on the high end-at lvl 90, that's still more than a 20% chance of
> getting hit. A pally with maxed holy shield can get 8-9k def without even
> trying, and a high level one with the "godliest" gear(excluding Exile) can
> easily get 12k or more. That's a big difference in chance to get hit.
Chance to hit depends a lot on the relationship between char level
and monster level as well as both defense and monster AR.
It's been understood all along that the Pally can get higher
defense with the same gear because of Holy Shield, but you
claim that he will have half the chance to get hit and I
want to what context you claim gives rise to that ratio.
The 20% number above came from my remark that the easiest
way for you to get to something like that would be at the
very high end, if, say the Pally had 10% chance to get hit
and the Wolf had 20, and I noted that the game would be
already too easy for both chars in that situation.
So I want to see how you get to half the chance to get
hit with the same gear in situations that matter - e.g
a lvl 75 char in Act 5 Hell. Also note that I finished
the game without dying with my Wolf on hell level at lvl 77
and I had pretty low defense due to wearing gear like
Vipermagi, Goblin Toe, Sanders Boots, etc.
>> Once again, it's your example and I'm waiting for your numbers to show
>> how the Pally has less than half the chance to get hit with equivalent
>> gear and char level.
>
> Maybe cause chance to get hit is based on defense, and Holy Shield makes
> sure that pally will have far more def than the druid will?
See above. You're repeating the well known and ducking the question.
>> I can't speak intelligently to the problems of random idiots in public
>> games. I played this build with pretty modest gear (I was wearing Skin
>> of the Vipermagi, Goblin Toe, and zero) unique rings or Ammys) and I
>> didn't die soloing hell level, and I wasn't particularly conservative
>> in play style.
>
> And a competent zealot could do the same thing. And considering that
> even the random idiots in public games do a better job of staying alive
> with zealots than they do with shifter druids, well...
I don't believe that I could have gone through hell at that level
with a Zealot wearing comparable gear (substitute HoZ for Jalal's)
and not died on multiple occasions. I may not
be up to your standards of competency, but my original point
is exactly that the Wolf is easier to play because his high
vitality gives so much more margin for error and the unexpected.
tcells
> > Yep, and even here the pally has the advantage. Conversion's a nice
idea,
> > never though of using it like that.
>
> And on the subject, does Conversion still work like it did in 09, where
once
> the monster uncoverted it was essentially 1 hit away from death, no matter
> what it's life was prior to conversion, and no matter how little damage it
> took while converted?
>
yes
tcells
"short" <sho...@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:2prbf0F...@uni-berlin.de...> news:2pq76cF...@uni-berlin.de...> > news:u4ofj0p6rnkv659au...@4ax.com...
> > > My my, doesn't "tcells" <tce...@yahoo.com> look good in that
> > > trenchcoat:
> > >
> > > >> I tend to go for a compromise and get enough hard dex to maintain
the
> > > >> block of my shield of choice (60% block on the shield -> 60% shield
> > > >> block for the character, before item adders), rather than simply
> > > >> maxing, and then put the surplus in vitality instead. I get what
> > > >> you're saying about breakeven points though... my hydra girl is up
to
> > > >> around 950 life, following some fortunate charm finds, so I'm going
> to
> > > >> focus more on dex from here on out.
> > > >
> > > >that's a fair enough way to go, so long as you keep in mind that
sooner
> > or
> > > >later you will hit that point where it's worth escalating points in
dex
> > hard
> > > >to make up for a poor blocking shield, alkthough of course there are
> some
> > > >shields you'd simply not consider4 doing this with.
> > >
> > > Yes, I don't generally (talking general melee, not just pally melee)
> > > consider a shield with less than 60% innate block to be worth trying
> > > to get up max/near-max block with. It just takes too much
> > > dexterity/not enough vitality for the kind of budget charm selection I
> > > often have. My current girl is still having to settle for a Ward
> > > (46%), so with her anni/tals belt, her block is only around 51%.
> > > Fingers crossed for a nice purple deflecting shield to go with that
> > > tal's armour that she's going to find eventually. ;-)
> > >
> >
> > do you *really* need the additional resists? Rhymed heater works very
> well.
> > I don't think there's a mosers lying around but that too.
> >
> Don't even mention Rhyme. I've been looking for a good shield candidate
for
> the Kicker, and can't seem to get one to drop.
>
> Meanie!
>
why a shield???? go two claws claw block + fade is better than block +
shield ofr a sin, or do you need the BoS?
tcells
a simple example is grizwold. Sick the grizzly on him while you deal with
whatever else is around. The others around generally aren't more than an
anoyance unless you make a mistake, but grizwold. A cantor is another
example.
tcells
> "Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:<10jfsuj...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2004.09.03....@yahoo.com...
> > > Of course Champions, etc. can be multiples of these figures,
> > > but much of their damage is often elemental as well, and
> > > probably not all that high since pure physical damage from even
> > > the Act bosses on hell level is fairly modest.
> >
> > I have my doubts about the Summit's listing of damage on those
> > figures...I've had chars lose 300-500 life in ONE hit from a normal, non
> > champ, non minion reanimated horde, and neither of their attacks is
listed
> > as dealing 500 damage.
>
> Was that monster getting an aura from another boss?
> Or were you lagging and actually taking multiple hits?
>
>
I checked this out in the garden last night, you can take a single hit for
400 damage, non aura assisted, normal monster
tcells
snip
>
> Yes, but I was assuming that one is putting in enough dex
> points to get the desired blocking level, and that these
> points are "made available" by reaching the desired level
> of vitality without putting them in life. That's what
> an example of a tradeoff: if one doesn't think more vitality
> is really needed, then the stat points can be used for
> something else.
>
hmm ok so now we're saying more or less the same thing
>
> > getting
> > > a better strength bonus to a melee attack while keeping
> > > a given level of vitality,
> >
> > how? I'm not following your line of though here at all :(
>
> For example, the stat points can be used for strength
> to increase melee damage or be able to wear a different
> piece of elite gear.
>
I was reading your line as that of the more or less text book HC line of vit
at all costs and seeing a bunch of inconsistencies in what you were saying
> > wearing slightly less resist
> > > gear in favor of some other gear attribute because for
> > > a built with twice the vitality, every attack is only
> > > half as damage as a percentage of total life.
> > >
> >
> > this isn't what you're saying at all. Again taking your "vit is best"
line
> > of thought, a 3 p ruby breast plate is better than a vipermagi because
it
> > increases your HP. If you're talking opportunity cost then you've
placed
> > the points in vit rather than str so your options are not going to be as
> > broad.
>
> No, you are ignoring my clarification and again insisting
> on a silly reading of what I wrote to mean that any tradeoff
> in favor of vitality over something else is good.
> It isn't polite to keep mis-reading that way after I've
> already clarified the point in excruciating syntactic
> detail.
>
you've clarified it here, before this post I read it as stated above.
>
> > > The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
> > > allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
> > > all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
> > > was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > but if you're saying "all other things being equal then more vit is
better",
> > it's not saying much because all things being equal then more str is
good,
> > so too is more dex and more energy.
>
> That is part of what I'm saying. Someone previously in this
> thread claimed that more vitality didn't matter beyond a
> certain point.
I didn't say vit didn't matter, what I said was that for a sorc or necro
that if you're going to have 900hp then you should look at max block.
Because above this point max block is *far* more important than additional
vit - assuming a shield with decent block of course.
Typically at this stage it will reuire 2-3 dex per level to maintain 75%
block the other 2 or 3 points you can put in vit or energy with these
builds, maintaining block will lead to a far more robust char than putting
all 5 points into vit.
all it takes is a bit of lag or desync, you don't need to wait around for it
to happen. I did some levelling with my sorc last night,
pindle/eldritch/skenk/baal solo. I counted 6 times going down to skenk that
there were at least that many missiles in the air. Had to pull back on two
occaisions due to might+AD (still cleared them of course).
In fact, she
> can boost her life by drinking ordinary red potions
> faster than most slinger packs can hurt her.
not a chance in the two might+AD times and it's the moment of lag which will
get you, so you're not drinking then unless you have block and pre-emptively
do it.
So it
> is okay for her to be less strong in that context
> in order to have more chance of survival in other
> contexts where she had twice as much more time to
> react and teleport away.
>
where is she stronger? The only deadly situations which I've encountered
are large missile attacks, big gloam attacks on entering WK2 or WK4 and
dolls. With dolls both have enough vit to ride through a single hit under
AD from a boss (around 850 damage). From a big gloam attack under lag, both
will be equally dead. Large missile attacks can occur in many places and
anywhere where you level a mature char.
snip
> > This is a very good point, in favour of what I'm saying.
> >
> > My FO/FB sorc has max block and she seldom needs treat these packs with
much
> > respect. Yours, with substantially more life *needs* treat them with
> > respect because she is far more fragile and dies far more quickly. The
> > difference being that you are losing life at a substantially faster rate
> > than mine.
>
> See above. I agree with you about the specific situation, and
> therefore was happy to mention it for illustration, but disagree
> that it is good point for your side of the debate.
then describe a reasonable situation which frequently occurs where the 400
additional hp will allow you to survive and the max block won't.
>
> > I'll daresay that there are times when with max block I can knock over
> > crowds of archers, slingers and quill rats which would have you dead on
bnet
> > simply due to the vaguaries of lag.
>
> I'm claiming that there are more frequent situations in which your sorc
> would die from lag before sensing it and teleporting/running
> away than mine would. That's my sense anyway. If I saw that specific
> point differently, then I would do the build your way. So in this
> sense we mostly agree about the concepts, if not the empirical
> distribution of phenomena.
>
maybe we play in different areas, I'm interested to know where you think
these situations occur.
> > >
snip
> >
> > actually DT sucks at this because the reality of bnet is that often the
> > monster is not where you're seeing it. you can quite easily be
targetting
> > the wrong monster or monster at the back of a small crowd (which of
course
> > you won't be making contact with).
>
> I don't normally have that problem with my broadband connection.
> Do you play with a modem?
>
yep, and that makes surviving even harder, thus more robust builds are reqd
> > If you could have perfect aiming and
> > lightning fast reflexes you might havce a point, but I have niether.
Now if
> > you add something like cold damage, slow monster or KB into the equation
> > then you can see that you're going to be slowing/kbing 4 monsters which
were
> > wailing oin you rather than one and having the other 3 still hitting
you.
> > So you can be leeching off two and negating the attacks of two PIs.
>
> I regard standing in a crowd like that as too dangerous for an
> assassin or a zealot that doesn't have really good gear.
i find it much harder for a MA assn than a zealot. Actually I don't think
it's hard at all for a zealot, you do need be judicious in how you do it and
make sure you move the monsters to where they need to be for safety. But
I've played a lot of paladins so possibly that's more second nature.
>
> > Throwing DT into the equation is rather silly, I'll couter your DT girl
and
> > up her with a trapper - which do you think is going to level faster now
;p
>
> For solo play my DT build with Death Sentry, venom, etc. is
> more versatile. I guess the lightning Trapper can find an
> area without lightning immunes and level faster there.
>
heh, a well build trapper doesn't worry about LIs :) I keep coming back to
it, with mature chars there's very few places to level, so that means
WK2-baal. A trapper will out point a DTer 4 to one there.
> > > > and besides that CoS, MB and a much more
> > > > powerfulk minion than anything available to the druid. Different
damage
> > > > levels as well.
> > >
> > > But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot
> > > for HC type safety and the Kicker is better than the
> > > Zealot for SC type killing/leveling speed.
> > >
> >
> > the kicker falls over at later levels due to boots.
>
> Not sure what you mean.
her boots present a more limitting factor than what a paladin has available.
Last2Know
Ok, but I can't recall ever being killed by Grizwold with even
the lamest untwinked variant build. He is so slow that its
kind of fun to toy with him, and also he drops fairly well, so
in an ideal world the merc would get his kill if he's wearing
and MF.
Last2Know
I previously wrote:
Okay, I see the confusion. It is a quantifier scoping problem.
I'm saying that extra vitality is is always a good thing
(*for every* build it can help) and also that there are many
choice situations (*there exist some* situations) where the fact
that the build has access to this extra vitality allows it
to improve in other ways - for example: obtaining high
blocking with a shield that has lower block, getting
a better strength bonus to a melee attack while keeping
a given level of vitality, wearing slightly less resist
gear in favor of some other gear attribute because for
a built with twice the vitality, every attack is only
half as damage as a percentage of total life.
The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
I don't see how that can be read to mean to suggest that
a breast plate with 3 p ruby's is better than a Vipermagi.
>>
>> > > The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
>> > > allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
>> > > all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
>> > > was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > but if you're saying "all other things being equal then more vit is
> better",
>> > it's not saying much because all things being equal then more str is
> good,
>> > so too is more dex and more energy.
>>
>> That is part of what I'm saying. Someone previously in this
>> thread claimed that more vitality didn't matter beyond a
>> certain point.
>
> I didn't say vit didn't matter, what I said was that for a sorc or necro
> that if you're going to have 900hp then you should look at max block.
> Because above this point max block is *far* more important than additional
> vit - assuming a shield with decent block of course.
I was recalling a remark by SvH who wrote:
Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
don't. If it turns out the paladin has enough, then the fact that
the wolf might have more isn't necessarily an advantage.
>> > However, let's use the figures:
>> >
>> > I'll base it on my ldr FO/FB sorc because she's handy to check stats
> with.
>> > About 200 points sunk into dex, this means the equivalent sorc investing
>> > those points in vit will have ~1500 hp and my sorc has ~1100.
>> >
>> > it will take about 20 slinger spears to kill you (hehe now if anyone
> really
>> > thinks they can survive 20 with 1500 life and no block dream on). So 20
>> > shots and you're dead. Now, only 5 are actually going to hit my sorc as
> she
>> > has 75% blocking, so she takes 375 damage. Sorc with max block and less
> vit
>> > is killing monsters and has 725 life left whilst her companion who has
> spent
>> > 200 more points on vit and had 1500 life is dead.
>>
>> I fully agree that your sorc is better in *that* situation.
>> But my sorce will not die there because she will
>> not wait around to die slowly from slinger spears,
>> (however many it takes to kill her).
>
> all it takes is a bit of lag or desync, you don't need to wait around for it
> to happen. I did some levelling with my sorc last night,
> pindle/eldritch/skenk/baal solo. I counted 6 times going down to skenk that
> there were at least that many missiles in the air. Had to pull back on two
> occaisions due to might+AD (still cleared them of course).
You counted 20 missiles in the air at once??
How did you confidently do that???
Anyway, sure, lag and desync can happen at horrible times
(e.g. opening the rightmost seal in Chaos sanctuary).
And if we are comparing builds, its possible that the situation
would lead to the death of either build or just the weaker
one. I acknowledged that the no-blocking sorc is weaker in
that situation, so of course there could theoretically be
a lag that would result in her death but not that of the
stronger one. But there are lots of death maulers in
the same area you are talking about and the relative
strength would reverse if we were talking about lag during
a death mauler attack.
> In fact, she
>> can boost her life by drinking ordinary red potions
>> faster than most slinger packs can hurt her.
>
> not a chance in the two might+AD times and it's the moment of lag which will
> get you, so you're not drinking then unless you have block and pre-emptively
> do it.
I said most. She can also see the aura and flee as well.
In the absence of lag, I am confident about not dying to
those slinger packs.
> So it
>> is okay for her to be less strong in that context
>> in order to have more chance of survival in other
>> contexts where she had twice as much more time to
>> react and teleport away.
>>
>
> where is she stronger? The only deadly situations which I've encountered
> are large missile attacks, big gloam attacks on entering WK2 or WK4 and
> dolls. With dolls both have enough vit to ride through a single hit under
> AD from a boss (around 850 damage).
Since dolls travel in packs, are very fast, and can come from
several directions in a place like Durance, one hit can
also be two hits or more.
>From a big gloam attack under lag, both
> will be equally dead.
Not sure what big is here, but it follows that there
is some medium attack that will kill your sorc build
and not my build.
>> > My FO/FB sorc has max block and she seldom needs treat these packs
>> > with
> much
>> > respect. Yours, with substantially more life *needs* treat them with
>> > respect because she is far more fragile and dies far more quickly.
>> > The difference being that you are losing life at a substantially
>> > faster rate than mine.
>>
>> See above. I agree with you about the specific situation, and
>> therefore was happy to mention it for illustration, but disagree that
>> it is good point for your side of the debate.
Another point is that with FO/FB build I think it is
stupid not to use Meteor as the FB synergy and that
works great for a relatively safe attack against
archers.
> then describe a reasonable situation which frequently occurs where the
> 400 additional hp will allow you to survive and the max block won't.
The examples above are fine. Sometimes gloams. Sometimes
dolls. Diablo Clone is another possible example.
To tell you the truth though, the char I was thinking
about was actually using Razorswitch with +80 life,
+175 mana, and 15 MDR. I'm not claiming I would have used
Razorswitch if I had an occy and a lidless at the time,
but the choice relative to the gear I did have, factoring in
the extra life and some rotation of mana points, would have
amounted to more than 400 HP difference.
>
>> > Throwing DT into the equation is rather silly, I'll couter your DT
>> > girl
> and
>> > up her with a trapper - which do you think is going to level faster
>> > now
> ;p
>>
>> For solo play my DT build with Death Sentry, venom, etc. is more
>> versatile. I guess the lightning Trapper can find an area without
>> lightning immunes and level faster there.
>>
>>
> heh, a well build trapper doesn't worry about LIs :)
Did you solo? I know its possible, but that doesn't mean
it is quick or easy. In any case, it is a different
style of play, so I am not in the mood to play one if
I want the other.
> I keep coming back
> to it, with mature chars there's very few places to level, so that means
> WK2-baal. A trapper will out point a DTer 4 to one there.
I doubt that, but in any case racking up XP points is not
my goal.
>> > > > and besides that CoS, MB and a much more powerfulk minion than
>> > > > anything available to the druid. Different
> damage
>> > > > levels as well.
>> > >
>> > > But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot for HC type
>> > > safety and the Kicker is better than the Zealot for SC type
>> > > killing/leveling speed.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > the kicker falls over at later levels due to boots.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean.
>
> her boots present a more limitting factor than what a paladin has
> available.
I think she can kill both single and multiple targets faster
with the right gear so I still don't know what you mean.
You do realize that the DT kicks inherit basically all
the mods of the weapon except those related to base and
enhanced physical damage, right? The ideal DT gear
is upped Gore Riders + a fast weapon with great mods. It's
hard for the Pally to find a weapon that simultaneously
has enough physical damage to overcome the DT speed
advantage and also mods to match whatever the Assy
wants to hold.
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>> I didn't say vit didn't matter, what I said was that for a sorc or necro
>> that if you're going to have 900hp then you should look at max block.
>> Because above this point max block is *far* more important than additional
>> vit - assuming a shield with decent block of course.
>
>I was recalling a remark by SvH who wrote:
> Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
> don't. If it turns out the paladin has enough, then the fact that
> the wolf might have more isn't necessarily an advantage.
Where did I say there that vit (presumably you mean life, not vit)
doesn't matter?
I already clarified what I meant in another post.
Shiflet
> We've been over this ground before, and I'm sorry that I'm
> not getting the point across to you. Successful Diablo
> game play and character strength is the result of many
> factors going the right way and adding together. I think
> you actually understand this, but willfully choose to ignore
> it when we are comparing the 2500 or so vitality of the Wolf
> vs. the 1000 or so vitality of the Paladin with comparable
> gear.
I do know that zealots live longer, simply cause they get hit less,
attack(and thus leech) faster, and can more easily max their resists and
blocking, with comparable gear.
> The 200-300 hit points you are dismissing above is
> still 10% of the Wolf's hit points and it would be 25% of
> the Pally's.
And the
> You said "your wolves will be dead in less than 2 seconds" and
> that is what I responded to above. I found them to be helpful
> and last a lot longer than that against everything that didn't
> do a lot of elemental damage. You claim a difference experience
> and I don't know why. Some things to note here are:
I find I needed to either recast wolves constantly, or go without them.
> 1) HF merc is important to this build and helps pets stay
> alive longer since enemies are only attacking at half speed.
Definitely, holy freeze helps most melee builds. The druid used to have
one...now he has a might merc, who's gonna wield Doom.
> 2) Dire Wolves got important synergies in 1.10 including
> life bonuses and resist bonuses. These synergies only
> come from hard points and not plus skills
Yes, I know synergies, that's how the rabies druid gets his
effectiveness...but now you've got 20 fury, 20 lycanthropy, 20 oak sage, 20
cyclone armor...if you're using synergies to boost dires, you're certainly
not talking those pre-end game levels anymore...
> 3) Dire Wolves are a lot different than Spirit Wolves.
Yes, I know this too.
> Chance to hit depends a lot on the relationship between char level
> and monster level as well as both defense and monster AR.
> It's been understood all along that the Pally can get higher
> defense with the same gear because of Holy Shield, but you
> claim that he will have half the chance to get hit and I
> want to what context you claim gives rise to that ratio.
A pally with holy shield will ALWAYS have less chance to get hit at the same
level, no matter what level you're talking. With equivalent gear, he's
*always* gonna have more than twice the def, which equals much less chance
to get hit. I'm not sure how else to explain it...
> The 20% number above came from my remark that the easiest
> way for you to get to something like that would be at the
> very high end, if, say the Pally had 10% chance to get hit
> and the Wolf had 20, and I noted that the game would be
> already too easy for both chars in that situation.
Yes, you did...but that's the same situation where the druid you've been
talking about would have enough points to max 4 skills and start pumping
synergies... If we're talking lower levels, the druid may have 60% chance to
get hit, and the pally will have 30...take your pick...
> So I want to see how you get to half the chance to get
> hit with the same gear in situations that matter - e.g
> a lvl 75 char in Act 5 Hell.
See above...equivalent pally will have higher defense, and that reduces the
chance to get hit...regardless of his level, and regardless of the monster
level. If a lvl 50 pally was in hell with holy shield, he'd have a higher
chance to get hit than a lvl 80 pally with the same gear and some lvl holy
shield...but he'd still have less chance to get hit than a lvl 70 character
without it.
> Also note that I finished the game without dying with my Wolf on hell
level at lvl 77
> and I had pretty low defense due to wearing gear like
> Vipermagi, Goblin Toe, Sanders Boots, etc.
That's cool.
> See above. You're repeating the well known and ducking the question.
How so? The higher def is EXACTLY why the pally has less chance to get
hit...that's as clear as it can possibly get.
> I don't believe that I could have gone through hell at that level
> with a Zealot wearing comparable gear (substitute HoZ for Jalal's)
> and not died on multiple occasions. I may not
> be up to your standards of competency, but my original point
> is exactly that the Wolf is easier to play because his high
> vitality gives so much more margin for error and the unexpected.
And the pally with lesser life but less chance to get hit, less investment
required to maintain max block, and faster attacks and faster leech can be
played just as well. That's the point both tcells and me have been making.
Shiflet
> yes
Ahh, cool...perhaps I'll invest a point in conversion for my next zealot,
see how it fares.
tcells
if you're twinking a zealot there will be no need unless you're just doing
it for the fun of it, very handy for a pure zealot though. I used to use it
a lot to get to the okies with fisters.
tcells
try a fanatic one with other nasty attribs and a pack or two of ranged
attackers within the aura :) But you can easily use it for nullifying any
boss (while the grizzly lives). My hunter will normally use dires but will
swap to grizzly for these situations.
Stephen van Ham
trenchcoat:
>And the pally with lesser life but less chance to get hit, less investment
>required to maintain max block, and faster attacks and faster leech can be
>played just as well. That's the point both tcells and me have been making.
Hey! I think I was saying that too, until I got distracted. ;-)
Regardless, I'll get short to make a shield block wolfen fiend soon,
just to make sure.
tcells
>
snip
>
> The assertion that every tradeoff of another stat point
> allocation in favor of an allocation to vitality is (for
> all stat point allocations, one with more life points is good)
> was not any part of what I thought I wrote.
>
> I don't see how that can be read to mean to suggest that
> a breast plate with 3 p ruby's is better than a Vipermagi.
>
but it was how I interpretted what you wrote. Thus the extreme case of a
breast plate with more life compared to the vipermagi.
>
snip
> > I didn't say vit didn't matter, what I said was that for a sorc or necro
> > that if you're going to have 900hp then you should look at max block.
> > Because above this point max block is *far* more important than
additional
> > vit - assuming a shield with decent block of course.
>
> I was recalling a remark by SvH who wrote:
>
ok
> Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
> don't. If it turns out the paladin has enough, then the fact that
> the wolf might have more isn't necessarily an advantage.
>
>
90% right
>
snip
>
>
> You counted 20 missiles in the air at once??
> How did you confidently do that???
pretty simple really, air was full of missiles so what I always try and note
is the amount of groupings, types and missile direction, as well as of
coursee, the order they are coming in at - this means you can attack with
more confidence. Then it's just a matter of counting the amount of monsters
in each group - well you don't actually need count them 1 monster 2 monsters
3 monsters etc as you can easily know a group has 3,4,5 etc monsters in it
immediately.
>
> Anyway, sure, lag and desync can happen at horrible times
> (e.g. opening the rightmost seal in Chaos sanctuary).
> And if we are comparing builds, its possible that the situation
> would lead to the death of either build or just the weaker
> one. I acknowledged that the no-blocking sorc is weaker in
> that situation, so of course there could theoretically be
> a lag that would result in her death but not that of the
> stronger one. But there are lots of death maulers in
> the same area you are talking about and the relative
> strength would reverse if we were talking about lag during
> a death mauler attack.
>
strangely enough I only had them pop up once. But yes they are a
possibility but it will take an extreme circumstance to be killed by them -
more than likely some spined critter with might/fana and some other attribs
will do the real damage.
>
> > In fact, she
> >> can boost her life by drinking ordinary red potions
> >> faster than most slinger packs can hurt her.
> >
> > not a chance in the two might+AD times and it's the moment of lag which
will
> > get you, so you're not drinking then unless you have block and
pre-emptively
> > do it.
>
> I said most. She can also see the aura and flee as well.
> In the absence of lag, I am confident about not dying to
> those slinger packs.
>
you can't be confident of seeing the aura because it might not reach the
front set of monsters, rather it could be a boss slinger a bit behind skenk
(or to his side). It's when you get that and they are fanatacised by
another close pack (you don't have any warning because you can't see the
aura) that situations become serious. Basically it's noticing your life
ball has dramatically dropped and getting out of there so you can come back
more circumspectly to find out just what the heck is down there.
> > So it
> >> is okay for her to be less strong in that context
> >> in order to have more chance of survival in other
> >> contexts where she had twice as much more time to
> >> react and teleport away.
> >>
> >
> > where is she stronger? The only deadly situations which I've
encountered
> > are large missile attacks, big gloam attacks on entering WK2 or WK4 and
> > dolls. With dolls both have enough vit to ride through a single hit
under
> > AD from a boss (around 850 damage).
>
> Since dolls travel in packs, are very fast, and can come from
> several directions in a place like Durance, one hit can
> also be two hits or more.
>
well I'm on modem and she frequently bothers meph for a pressie and is yet
to die to dolls. There was a game with revellers in wk4 last night when
they were particularly bad, and yes I'd agree I'd have loved the 400
additional life, but certainly not at the expense of block.
> >From a big gloam attack under lag, both
> > will be equally dead.
>
> Not sure what big is here, but it follows that there
> is some medium attack that will kill your sorc build
> and not my build.
>
big = 6 or so gloam rays all hitting you at once with a nasty boss in their
midst. This sort of thing happens with lag entry to wk2 & 4 and really, 400
life isn't going to make a difference, unless you're talking dual claw assns
with fade but then you don't have any dex trade off to consider.
> >> > My FO/FB sorc has max block and she seldom needs treat these packs
> >> > with
> > much
> >> > respect. Yours, with substantially more life *needs* treat them with
> >> > respect because she is far more fragile and dies far more quickly.
> >> > The difference being that you are losing life at a substantially
> >> > faster rate than mine.
> >>
> >> See above. I agree with you about the specific situation, and
> >> therefore was happy to mention it for illustration, but disagree that
> >> it is good point for your side of the debate.
>
> Another point is that with FO/FB build I think it is
> stupid not to use Meteor as the FB synergy and that
> works great for a relatively safe attack against
> archers.
sometimes meteor will work better, other times it won't. Often you'll have
a bunch of monsters eg sprites about you which you can wipe clean with the
FO (timed) whilst FBing the ranged attackers. The other thing too is that
FB will interrupt their attack.
>
> > then describe a reasonable situation which frequently occurs where the
> > 400 additional hp will allow you to survive and the max block won't.
>
> The examples above are fine. Sometimes gloams. Sometimes
> dolls. Diablo Clone is another possible example.
> To tell you the truth though, the char I was thinking
> about was actually using Razorswitch with +80 life,
> +175 mana, and 15 MDR. I'm not claiming I would have used
> Razorswitch if I had an occy and a lidless at the time,
> but the choice relative to the gear I did have, factoring in
> the extra life and some rotation of mana points, would have
> amounted to more than 400 HP difference.
>
I was making a straight comparison with same equipment. The clone hasn't
killed her, but he has come close.
>
> >
> >> > Throwing DT into the equation is rather silly, I'll couter your DT
> >> > girl
> > and
> >> > up her with a trapper - which do you think is going to level faster
> >> > now
> > ;p
> >>
> >> For solo play my DT build with Death Sentry, venom, etc. is more
> >> versatile. I guess the lightning Trapper can find an area without
> >> lightning immunes and level faster there.
> >>
> >>
> > heh, a well build trapper doesn't worry about LIs :)
>
> Did you solo? I know its possible, but that doesn't mean
> it is quick or easy. In any case, it is a different
> style of play, so I am not in the mood to play one if
> I want the other.
>
yes, soloed. You get very good fire damage with synergies, a lot actually.
DS is of course maxxed so you get decent range out of it. The only LI to be
worried about are gloams and they are very fragile. I can understand not
being in the mood to play one if you want to play the oither though.
>
> > I keep coming back
> > to it, with mature chars there's very few places to level, so that means
> > WK2-baal. A trapper will out point a DTer 4 to one there.
>
> I doubt that, but in any case racking up XP points is not
> my goal.
>
it really is, once you hit 89 it dries up a heck of a lot
> >> > > > and besides that CoS, MB and a much more powerfulk minion than
> >> > > > anything available to the druid. Different
> > damage
> >> > > > levels as well.
> >> > >
> >> > > But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot for HC type
> >> > > safety and the Kicker is better than the Zealot for SC type
> >> > > killing/leveling speed.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > the kicker falls over at later levels due to boots.
> >>
> >> Not sure what you mean.
> >
> > her boots present a more limitting factor than what a paladin has
> > available.
>
> I think she can kill both single and multiple targets faster
> with the right gear so I still don't know what you mean.
> You do realize that the DT kicks inherit basically all
> the mods of the weapon except those related to base and
> enhanced physical damage, right?
yes I understand that.
The ideal DT gear
> is upped Gore Riders + a fast weapon with great mods. It's
> hard for the Pally to find a weapon that simultaneously
> has enough physical damage to overcome the DT speed
> advantage and also mods to match whatever the Assy
> wants to hold.
>
heh but he's inherently more robust, that is the balance :)
Shiflet
> Hey! I think I was saying that too, until I got distracted. ;-)
Yeah, you too;-)
> Regardless, I'll get short to make a shield block wolfen fiend soon,
> just to make sure.
Of course!
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.05....@yahoo.com...
>> We've been over this ground before, and I'm sorry that I'm
>> not getting the point across to you. Successful Diablo
>> game play and character strength is the result of many
>> factors going the right way and adding together. I think
>> you actually understand this, but willfully choose to ignore
>> it when we are comparing the 2500 or so vitality of the Wolf
>> vs. the 1000 or so vitality of the Paladin with comparable
>> gear.
>
> I do know that zealots live longer, simply cause they get hit less,
> attack(and thus leech) faster, and can more easily max their resists and
> blocking, with comparable gear.
Ok, I'll do my little summary dance too: Wolf lives longer
because of 2.5X life and traveling with 6 supplementary
targets (merc, 3 dire wolves, 1 spirit, 1 vine) compared
to Pally that has only merc. So monster attention if
further divided by a factor of 3.5, counteracting the
defense advantage of the Zealot.
> Yes, I know synergies, that's how the rabies druid gets his
> effectiveness...but now you've got 20 fury, 20 lycanthropy, 20 oak sage, 20
> cyclone armor...if you're using synergies to boost dires, you're certainly
> not talking those pre-end game levels anymore...
Right. You said something to the effect that my build would
never max Cyclone Armor and I replied to show that it
would get maxed sometime in the mid level 80s.
>> Chance to hit depends a lot on the relationship between char level
>> and monster level as well as both defense and monster AR.
>> It's been understood all along that the Pally can get higher
>> defense with the same gear because of Holy Shield, but you
>> claim that he will have half the chance to get hit and I
>> want to what context you claim gives rise to that ratio.
>
> A pally with holy shield will ALWAYS have less chance to get hit at the same
> level, no matter what level you're talking. With equivalent gear, he's
> *always* gonna have more than twice the def, which equals much less chance
> to get hit. I'm not sure how else to explain it...
I'm not asking you to explain the relationship between defense
and chance to get hit. I'm asking you to justify the specific
claim that the Pally will have only half the chance to
get hit. My objection was that for this calc to work out,
you need really good gear. Since you are not forthcoming
with the numbers, I'll give it a try. According to A.S.
a member of the Blood Lord family has about 6K A.R. on
hell level. The difference in chance to get hit that we
are talking about differs because of the ratio
Monster AR/(Monster AR + Defense). Let's say the Pally's
defense is 5X that of the Druid. Then for this ratio
to differ by a factor of 2 in the case of the Blood Lord,
we have 2*(6K/(6K+5D) = 6K/(6K+D), solving for D we get 2K.
So the Holy Shield doesn't give you half the chance to get
hit until your armor is around 2K (I'm leaving out the
small effect of Dex and the fact that you are using less
of it because of Holy Shield helping to get max block
easier). Having 2K armor with max resists is pretty
advanced gear, bearing out my contention. For 1K armor,
it's only a 34% difference. For .6K armor, it's a
31% difference. Now that starts to not look as good
compared to my 2.5X life and 3.5X larger party.
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.06....@yahoo.com...
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 12:15:20 +1000, tcells wrote:
>>
>> I was recalling a remark by SvH who wrote:
>>
>
> ok
>
>> Total life ball is simply a number - you either have enough, or you
>> don't. If it turns out the paladin has enough, then the fact that
>> the wolf might have more isn't necessarily an advantage.
>>
>>
>
> 90% right
SvH complains that this is taking him out of context.
Forgetting about who holds the idea, I'm arguing against
it in two different ways. First note that having
1K life instead of 2.5K life is like having a curse
that worse that amp damage on you all the time. Whereas
amp damage increases your physical damage by a factor of
2, here we are talking about a factor of 2.5 and its
is for all damage, not just physical. Second, I've
noted that if one really did believe in the threshold
viewpoint of having enough life, then the extra vitality
points could be saved and used for extra dex or strength
instead.
>> You counted 20 missiles in the air at once??
>> How did you confidently do that???
>
> pretty simple really, air was full of missiles so what I always try and note
> is the amount of groupings, types and missile direction, as well as of
> coursee, the order they are coming in at - this means you can attack with
> more confidence. Then it's just a matter of counting the amount of monsters
> in each group - well you don't actually need count them 1 monster 2 monsters
> 3 monsters etc as you can easily know a group has 3,4,5 etc monsters in it
> immediately.
But usually they are not all activated to fire at you at the
same time.
>> >> For solo play my DT build with Death Sentry, venom, etc. is more
>> >> versatile. I guess the lightning Trapper can find an area without
>> >> lightning immunes and level faster there.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > heh, a well build trapper doesn't worry about LIs :)
>>
>> Did you solo? I know its possible, but that doesn't mean
>> it is quick or easy. In any case, it is a different
>> style of play, so I am not in the mood to play one if
>> I want the other.
>>
>
> yes, soloed. You get very good fire damage with synergies, a lot actually.
I've been meaning to try that build with the high level FireBlast.
The drawback seems to be that you lose the high level ShadowMaster
to hold the bad guys in place for your traps and also to run
out ahead and reveal where the bad guys are.
> DS is of course maxxed so you get decent range out of it. The only LI to be
> worried about are gloams and they are very fragile. I can understand not
> being in the mood to play one if you want to play the oither though.
>
>
>>
>> > I keep coming back
>> > to it, with mature chars there's very few places to level, so that means
>> > WK2-baal. A trapper will out point a DTer 4 to one there.
>>
>> I doubt that, but in any case racking up XP points is not
>> my goal.
>>
>
> it really is, once you hit 89 it dries up a heck of a lot
I meant that I normally don't focus on getting to such high char
levels, repeating areas, etc.
>> >> > > > and besides that CoS, MB and a much more powerfulk minion than
>> >> > > > anything available to the druid. Different
>> > damage
>> >> > > > levels as well.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But my claim is that the Wolf is better than the Zealot for HC type
>> >> > > safety and the Kicker is better than the Zealot for SC type
>> >> > > killing/leveling speed.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > the kicker falls over at later levels due to boots.
>> >>
>> >> Not sure what you mean.
>> >
>> > her boots present a more limitting factor than what a paladin has
>> > available.
>>
>> I think she can kill both single and multiple targets faster
>> with the right gear so I still don't know what you mean.
>> You do realize that the DT kicks inherit basically all
>> the mods of the weapon except those related to base and
>> enhanced physical damage, right?
>
> yes I understand that.
>
> The ideal DT gear
>> is upped Gore Riders + a fast weapon with great mods. It's
>> hard for the Pally to find a weapon that simultaneously
>> has enough physical damage to overcome the DT speed
>> advantage and also mods to match whatever the Assy
>> wants to hold.
>>
>
>
> heh but he's inherently more robust, that is the balance :)
Compared to the Zealot, the Kicker has CoS, MindBlast,
ShadowMaster, and ranged trap attacks. I think she
can be as safe for players that use those skills effectively,
but it takes more strategy regarding when to melee,
when to hang back, etc.
Shiflet
> Ok, I'll do my little summary dance too: Wolf lives longer
> because of 2.5X life and traveling with 6 supplementary
> targets (merc, 3 dire wolves, 1 spirit, 1 vine) compared
> to Pally that has only merc. So monster attention if
> further divided by a factor of 3.5, counteracting the
> defense advantage of the Zealot.
I cast HS once, and I'm safe for the next 5-10 minutes. You have to cast
your wolves and vine and spirit over and over again, which can be a huge
hassle in combat.
> I'm not asking you to explain the relationship between defense
> and chance to get hit. I'm asking you to justify the specific
> claim that the Pally will have only half the chance to
> get hit.
HOW else is there? More def=less chance to get hit. Twice the def=half the
chance to get hit? That IS the justification.
> So the Holy Shield doesn't give you half the chance to get
> hit until your armor is around 2K (I'm leaving out the
> small effect of Dex and the fact that you are using less
> of it because of Holy Shield helping to get max block
> easier).
Yes, it DOES. Join a game with a druid who has 2k total def, check his
chance to get hit. Join a game with a pally who has 2k total def, cast holy
shield, then check HIS chance to get hit.
> Having 2K armor with max resists is pretty
> advanced gear, bearing out my contention.
Very advanced? I'll give a typical setup for a paladin at lvl say, 50:
Vampire Gaze:252(even cheaper:Rockstopper, 163 at the lowest)
Shaftstop(599 at least), maybe Duriel's Shell(528 minimum)
HoZ(422 at least)
SoE(102 def)
Gore Riders(140)
and lets say...Laying of Hands(79)
That's around 1500-1600 def at lvl 50, not counting dex or or any little
bonuses from charms, with pretty typical mid level pally gear. Now, with
Holy Shield at lvl 6, that's 3200 def. Let's say his Holy Shield was at lvl
13...now he has 4500 def. And that WILL give much less chance to get hit
than a druid with that same gear. Maybe not exactly 50%, but much less
regardless.
tcells
I only counted the times they were, maybe it's exascerbated by lag ie you
arrive at the botton of the walkway and wait on the server whilst you're
still travelling on screen
>
>
> >> >> For solo play my DT build with Death Sentry, venom, etc. is more
> >> >> versatile. I guess the lightning Trapper can find an area without
> >> >> lightning immunes and level faster there.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > heh, a well build trapper doesn't worry about LIs :)
> >>
> >> Did you solo? I know its possible, but that doesn't mean
> >> it is quick or easy. In any case, it is a different
> >> style of play, so I am not in the mood to play one if
> >> I want the other.
> >>
> >
> > yes, soloed. You get very good fire damage with synergies, a lot
actually.
>
> I've been meaning to try that build with the high level FireBlast.
> The drawback seems to be that you lose the high level ShadowMaster
> to hold the bad guys in place for your traps and also to run
> out ahead and reveal where the bad guys are.
>
never had a problem with SM. On switch I'd always use two shadow claws,
that means a min to SM of +6 immediately. A trapper is a +skills build so
you're going to have a few more and all you need is 17 in SM, anything more
is overkill. Merc of choice for my trappers is a defiant, this also helps
the SM tremendously.
>
>
> > DS is of course maxxed so you get decent range out of it. The only LI
to be
> > worried about are gloams and they are very fragile. I can understand
not
> > being in the mood to play one if you want to play the oither though.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > I keep coming back
> >> > to it, with mature chars there's very few places to level, so that
means
> >> > WK2-baal. A trapper will out point a DTer 4 to one there.
> >>
> >> I doubt that, but in any case racking up XP points is not
> >> my goal.
> >>
> >
> > it really is, once you hit 89 it dries up a heck of a lot
>
> I meant that I normally don't focus on getting to such high char
> levels, repeating areas, etc.
>
ok, but this is where the real test of a build comes to play.
agreed she has to thin the crowd then draw the crowd, but I regard this as
simply a slightly different strategy requiring more time, not more strategy
as such ;)
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.06....@yahoo.com...
>> Ok, I'll do my little summary dance too: Wolf lives longer
>> because of 2.5X life and traveling with 6 supplementary
>> targets (merc, 3 dire wolves, 1 spirit, 1 vine) compared
>> to Pally that has only merc. So monster attention if
>> further divided by a factor of 3.5, counteracting the
>> defense advantage of the Zealot.
>
> I cast HS once, and I'm safe for the next 5-10 minutes. You have to cast
> your wolves and vine and spirit over and over again, which can be a huge
> hassle in combat.
The minions last longer than you claim, and they are easy
to cast - even easier than Assassin traps in my experience,
since casting them doesn't seem to have the same requirement
for clear floor space. Roughly, if the percentage of monsters
left in a skirmish is going down faster than the percentage
of living minions then recasting the wolves is optional.
Another advantage of the Druid we haven't discussed is that
the defense from having multiple decoys helps keep monsters
from swarming the merc, keeping him alive, whereas HS only
helps the Pally and not his merc.
>> I'm not asking you to explain the relationship between defense
>> and chance to get hit. I'm asking you to justify the specific
>> claim that the Pally will have only half the chance to
>> get hit.
>
> HOW else is there? More def=less chance to get hit. Twice the def=half the
> chance to get hit?
The last statement above isn't true.
>> So the Holy Shield doesn't give you half the chance to get
>> hit until your armor is around 2K (I'm leaving out the
>> small effect of Dex and the fact that you are using less
>> of it because of Holy Shield helping to get max block
>> easier).
>
> Yes, it DOES. Join a game with a druid who has 2k total def, check his
> chance to get hit. Join a game with a pally who has 2k total def, cast holy
> shield, then check HIS chance to get hit.
I showed the you the actual numbers to demonstrate why even
5X defense doesn't necessarily give you half the chance
to get hit.
>> Having 2K armor with max resists is pretty
>> advanced gear, bearing out my contention.
>
> Very advanced? I'll give a typical setup for a paladin at lvl say, 50:
> Vampire Gaze:252(even cheaper:Rockstopper, 163 at the lowest)
> Shaftstop(599 at least), maybe Duriel's Shell(528 minimum)
> HoZ(422 at least)
> SoE(102 def)
> Gore Riders(140)
> and lets say...Laying of Hands(79)
That's nice gear, though the version with Vamp Gaze and
Shaftstop isn't going to give you max resists on hell level,
unless you also have a lot of nice res. charms in your
inventory. With gear like that the game becomes a
lot easier.
> That's around 1500-1600 def at lvl 50, not counting dex or or any little
> bonuses from charms, with pretty typical mid level pally gear. Now, with
> Holy Shield at lvl 6, that's 3200 def. Let's say his Holy Shield was at lvl
> 13...now he has 4500 def. And that WILL give much less chance to get hit
> than a druid with that same gear. Maybe not exactly 50%,
Less than 50% difference against a Bloodlord at hell level
when Holy Shield is giving 400% enhanced defense. At lvl 50
a char might typically face monsters with less AR, but
Holy Shield won't typically be giving 400% yet at lvl 50
either.
Shiflet
> The minions last longer than you claim,
Mine don't.
> Another advantage of the Druid we haven't discussed is that
> the defense from having multiple decoys helps keep monsters
> from swarming the merc, keeping him alive, whereas HS only
> helps the Pally and not his merc.
I already told you, my mercs only die to IM, and 8000 minions won't save him
from that. So it keeps him alive...yet if he stays alive just fine without
'em, no need for 'em.
> I showed the you the actual numbers to demonstrate why even
> 5X defense doesn't necessarily give you half the chance
> to get hit.
And I told you your numbers are incorrect, cause if you check the chance to
get hit, on the character screen, the pally will have MUCH much less.
> That's nice gear, though the version with Vamp Gaze and
> Shaftstop isn't going to give you max resists on hell level,
> unless you also have a lot of nice res. charms in your
> inventory. With gear like that the game becomes a
> lot easier.
How many lvl 50 characters do you take to hell level? By the time he gets to
hell level, a typical zealot player will have better gear than that, too. I
thought you kept talking about how at the "high levels", the game is easy
for anybody so we're only counting the lower ones. If you wanna start
talking endgame setup, well, we'll reoutfit him.
> Less than 50% difference against a Bloodlord at hell level
> when Holy Shield is giving 400% enhanced defense.
Yes, except a lvl 50 pally probably will just be doing NM baal runs, and
won't be in hell.
> At lvl 50 a char might typically face monsters with less AR, but
> Holy Shield won't typically be giving 400% yet at lvl 50
> either.
Lower monsters, lower holy shield, yes, that was the reason for the lvl 50
example cause you said you weren't talking about lvl 80+. I can give you a
full setup for a lvl 80 pally that's much more effective than the one I
listed(and will be getting lots more def, and lots more HS).
Last2Know
>
> "Last2Know" <grok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.09.07...@yahoo.com...
>> The minions last longer than you claim,
>
> Mine don't.
>
>> Another advantage of the Druid we haven't discussed is that
>> the defense from having multiple decoys helps keep monsters
>> from swarming the merc, keeping him alive, whereas HS only
>> helps the Pally and not his merc.
>
> I already told you, my mercs only die to IM, and 8000 minions won't save him
> from that. So it keeps him alive...yet if he stays alive just fine without
> 'em, no need for 'em.
If your merc never dies in melee on hell level then
that shows you have good enough gear to make the game
easy for most builds.
>> I showed the you the actual numbers to demonstrate why even
>> 5X defense doesn't necessarily give you half the chance
>> to get hit.
>
> And I told you your numbers are incorrect,
I'm following the chance to be hit formula from here:
http://www.hut.fi/~tgustafs/tohit.html
and using monster AR from Arreat Summit.
>cause if you check the chance to
> get hit, on the character screen, the pally will have MUCH much less.
Chance to hit depends on monster AR, char defense,
and monster and char level. The comparison we have
been discussing is between two chars of the same level
that differ in defense by a given factor. I gave
one example of a chance to be hit using a typical
hell level monster. You aren't giving any specific
context for your claims that can be verified or
lead to numbers so they are vacuous.
>> That's nice gear, though the version with Vamp Gaze and
>> Shaftstop isn't going to give you max resists on hell level,
>> unless you also have a lot of nice res. charms in your
>> inventory. With gear like that the game becomes a
>> lot easier.
>
> How many lvl 50 characters do you take to hell level? By the time he gets to
> hell level, a typical zealot player will have better gear than that, too. I
> thought you kept talking about how at the "high levels", the game is easy
> for anybody so we're only counting the lower ones. If you wanna start
> talking endgame setup, well, we'll reoutfit him.
The gear you listed is already gear that I consider
good for hell level. I understand there is better gear
than that, but the gear you listed is already enough
to make the game relatively easy.
>> Less than 50% difference against a Bloodlord at hell level
>> when Holy Shield is giving 400% enhanced defense.
>
> Yes, except a lvl 50 pally probably will just be doing NM baal runs, and
> won't be in hell.
And if he isn't twinked up the gills he won't have such good gear,
and his defense won't be better than the Druid with the same gear
by a factor of 5 because Holy Shield won't be yet at that level.
If you want to fill in specifics for all those things and show
the numbers to make your case then be my guest.
>> At lvl 50 a char might typically face monsters with less AR, but
>> Holy Shield won't typically be giving 400% yet at lvl 50
>> either.
>
> Lower monsters, lower holy shield, yes, that was the reason for the lvl 50
> example cause you said you weren't talking about lvl 80+. I can give you a
> full setup for a lvl 80 pally that's much more effective than the one I
> listed(and will be getting lots more def, and lots more HS).
I don't doubt that. Again, twinked up the gills - easy.
The Druid can have lots of vita charms and bonuses from
gear as well and get 4K life if you want to play that
game.
Shiflet
> If your merc never dies in melee on hell level then
> that shows you have good enough gear to make the game
> easy for most builds.
One of my mercs that doesn't die uses an Honor cryptic axe(low runes, anyone
can make), Guillame's Face(easily obtainable), and Lionheart armor(again,
low runes). This isn't uber gear, and is stuff that's really easy for anyone
to obtain.
> >> I showed the you the actual numbers to demonstrate why even
> Chance to hit depends on monster AR, char defense,
> and monster and char level. The comparison we have
> been discussing is between two chars of the same level
> that differ in defense by a given factor. I gave
> one example of a chance to be hit using a typical
> hell level monster. You aren't giving any specific
> context for your claims that can be verified or
> lead to numbers so they are vacuous.
The specific context comes from CHECKING IN GAME. Lvl 82 wolf Druid with
~1800 def, against an Enslaved in hell=61% chance to get hit. Lvl 83 pally
in hell, also with ~1800 def likewise has the same 61% chance of getting
hit. Seems reasonable so far. Now, the pally casts Holy Shield, which isn't
even maxed like it would be on a normal zealot(this guy is a fire guy), and
his def goes up to ~8k. Now, it says he has a 27% chance of getting hit.
Sure, the pally has got an extra level but that shouldn't make an over 50%
difference to get hit now, should it? Now, if you want a full allotment of
gear, stat points, skills, etc, I could give it to you if you really wanted,
and if you want to experiment in single player with the same gear, you can
test to your hearts content. An Enslaved in hell IS a typical hell level
monster, right? And by having 5 times the defense, going by your formula, I
still wouldn't get hit 50% less often. Yet I have less than 5 times the def,
and the game says the druid takes MORE than 50% more hits than me.
> The gear you listed is already gear that I consider
> good for hell level. I understand there is better gear
> than that, but the gear you listed is already enough
> to make the game relatively easy.
Then by that logic, characters can relatively easily beat hell at lvl 50?
> And if he isn't twinked up the gills he won't have such good gear,
Ohkay, replace Vamp with Guillames, Shaft with Lionheart, and Gores with any
other unique boots, and you'll still get similar numbers. And those items
are all very easy to get, even a single player who only used what he himself
found and didn't bring in any items from Atmas could find stuff of that
level very easily.
> If you want to fill in specifics for all those things and show
> the numbers to make your case then be my guest.
Can't test the lvl 50's, but I could show you specific gear, stats, and
skills for the lvl 82 druid and lvl 83 pally, if you absolutely had to know
exact items and stat placement. However, the gear itself is not the actual
point-the point is, that a pally with ~equal base defense, but with holy
shield, had much less chance of getting hit than the druid did.
> I don't doubt that. Again, twinked up the gills - easy.
> The Druid can have lots of vita charms and bonuses from
> gear as well and get 4K life if you want to play that
> game.
4k life? That's an interesting figure too. Testing with the aforementioned
druid, who has 323 vita, and lvl 32 lycanthropy, and lvl 22 oak sage, and
several life charms, he can get 4.1k life....but then, that's only AFTER
casting battle orders from Call to Arms, too. And since you're questioning
my figures, I'm curious how your wolf druid will be getting 4k life without
BO, too. Yeah, you'll have a higher oak sage I realize, but you think it's
gonna make up for BO? Or are you loading up his entire inventory with 20
life scs(which are a lot harder to stockpile than the entire setup I listed
for the pally)?