Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
Dismiss

Is this cheating?

3 views
Skip to first unread message

Jim Carson

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 2:09:46 PM2/6/02
to
I have seen at least one poster in this forum request
realm gold for real cash.

I was surprised when I came across the following link:

http://www.camelotexchange.com/daoc.asp

Which was found via the following link:

http://www.camelotexchange.com/PressRelease.asp

If what is alleged is true, is Mythic in the
right to shut this kind of thing down?

Blacksnow offers 1000 gold for over $100. Blacksnow's
very best volume discount seems too steep to me,
heck I give stuff away for free.

Should this kind of thing be shut down? Is it
a form of cheating?

How about selling accounts?

Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 2:32:47 PM2/6/02
to
"Jim Carson" <jcar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f26cec66.02020...@posting.google.com...

> I have seen at least one poster in this forum request
> realm gold for real cash.
>
> If what is alleged is true, is Mythic in the
> right to shut this kind of thing down?

Nope, and I'd be really surprised if they could win a lawsuit. Even if the
EULA says players can't do this (I haven't read it!), most EULA's won't
stand up to a good team of lawyers with "free enterprise" on their side.
Mythic should spend the money on game improvements (and testers) instead of
on lawyers.

> Blacksnow offers 1000 gold for over $100. Blacksnow's
> very best volume discount seems too steep to me,
> heck I give stuff away for free.

Me too, and this doesn't change anything - I still will.

> Should this kind of thing be shut down? Is it
> a form of cheating?

IMHO, it's only cheating when you take advantage of a flaw in the game to
gain advantage and/or hurt another player. Buying somebody else's effort
defeats the spirit of the game (learn your way along, improving as you go)
but it isn't cheating.
>
> How about selling accounts?

Same thing.

People who do this are looking for short cuts, and won't get the same
enjoyment out of the game as somebody who does it the hard way. And the
short-cutters probably won't hang around - how much fun is it to play your
level 50 character night after night knowing that you didn't earn that
right?

In the spirit of this newsgroup let me offer an analogy, using racing games
(my other vice). Most racing games have cheat codes that allow you to unlock
faster cars, better parts, etc. So you can install the game, use the cheat
code, and win every race using the fastest car. Expected lifetime of the
resulting game: a few days. Or, you can install the game, start from the
bottom in your junker, hopefully win enough to upgrade or replace it, and
work your way up the ladder. Expected lifetime of the game: weeks or months
(assuming it's a fun game).

Live and let live - if somebody wants to buy a L50 character so they can
stomp all over me, so be it. Eventually I'll be L50 too and if they are
still around we can have some fun battles. And I'll have had the 2 years
worth of play it took me to get there <g>.

Some day when I get tired of my Healer I might just sell him on eBay (or
through somebody like Blacksnow). If somebody's willing to pay, why not
recoup some of my investment in the game.


Koneg

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 2:40:26 PM2/6/02
to
In our last episode,
Jim Carson <jcar...@hotmail.com> scribbled the following:

[snips]

>If what is alleged is true, is Mythic in the
>right to shut this kind of thing down?

Certainly. Their TOS, their AUP, their game.

>Blacksnow offers 1000 gold for over $100. Blacksnow's
>very best volume discount seems too steep to me,
>heck I give stuff away for free.

Ooooh. Better still, get a char to level 40 and you can make 100 gold in
about an hour.

>Should this kind of thing be shut down? Is it
>a form of cheating?

IMHO Yes, it most certainly is cheating. You want something, go earn it.

>How about selling accounts?

Hmmm cheating? Maybe, but far less offensive than just outright selling
cash. The cash you receive wasn't "earned" IMO, where-as a toon you buy
-was- earned. Someone had to get the char to the level they were sold at.
Distasteful YES. Cheating?

/em wiggles his hand back and forth

Dunno 'bout that.

--
Koneg
31 Armsman
Knight Marshall, Knights of Camelot
Pellinor

markOpoleO

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 3:33:38 PM2/6/02
to
Yes, it should be shut down, AND the person doing it should get some sort of
punishment.
Its not about cheating, its a legal offering..people pay monthly fees for a
service..anytime money is involved in offering a service, and someone is
exploiting someone because of the service (Monthly fees im talking about)
they should be held accountable.

I can bet you Mystic will put a lawyer in the equation and he will stop. :)

mark

"Jim Carson" <jcar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f26cec66.02020...@posting.google.com...

Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 4:00:06 PM2/6/02
to
Ok, let's look at some examples where money is involved:

-I rent a lawnmower then charge my neighbours to mow their lawn. Is the
rental company going to sue me?
-I rent a video and charge my friends a quarter to come in (I know, I know,
but it's an example!). Is Block Busters going to sue me?

So, somebody is "renting" Mythic's servers to play DAoC and they choose to
sell the results of their effort to people who are unwilling to put the
effort in themselves. That's called free enterprise.

The EULA probably says I'm not allowed to do that but I don't think any EULA
has been properly challenged in court yet. Apparently the Microsoft
FrontPage EULA says you aren't allowed to create web pages that disparage
Microsoft or its products using FrontPage. May be an urban legend but if
not, how long do you think it would take for a good lawyer to convince a
judge of the civil rights deprived by that agreement?

Anyway, look. I'm not involved in this enterprise. I am not selling
characters or gold - I have 1 character and he needs the gold (except for
the occasional donation to a guildie). But if somebody wants to buy and
somebody else wants to sell, it's between them. It's not cheating, it's not
unethical, at most it's just lazy. (Ok, it's probably against the EULA too
but who cares).

It's only an exploit if they figured out some way OUTSIDE the game to earn
that gold. Mythic shouldn't care WHO earns the gold (or makes the
character). They get the cash either way - somebody is logged on. In fact,
they get more cash this way - the kind of person who buys a character
wouldn't spend the time growing one so wouldn't play at all if they couldn't
buy one somewhere.

"markOpoleO" <marko...@onemain.com> wrote in message
news:Cqg88.15376$3E5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

Bangbus

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 4:22:18 PM2/6/02
to

"Rob Adams" <rob.nosp...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:zxf88.2808$Qq1.13956@shaw-ty2...

> "Jim Carson" <jcar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f26cec66.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > I have seen at least one poster in this forum request
> > realm gold for real cash.
> >
> > If what is alleged is true, is Mythic in the
> > right to shut this kind of thing down?
>
> Nope, and I'd be really surprised if they could win a lawsuit. Even if the
> EULA says players can't do this (I haven't read it!), most EULA's won't
> stand up to a good team of lawyers with "free enterprise" on their side.
> Mythic should spend the money on game improvements (and testers) instead
of
> on lawyers.
>
Why bother with a lawsuit? Just shut the offender's account down.


Haldamere

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 4:25:22 PM2/6/02
to

Actually, i think most videos state at the beginning that you cant charge
anyone to view it once you have rented it.

But with this game it is a little different than that. Most rental shops are
upset about that, because the person you charge a few cents, then will not
rent the video/hire the mower themselves. As for MMORPG's, the player
already is registered, so Mythic doesn't lose out there. It is probably more
a game play issue. Mythic might be worried that the economy will get screwed
up if low levels are running around with 1000gp. It is also unfair to the
players that cant afford $100 (us too, so $200 au ) ... they still have to
kill things to get it....

Mythic allows you to sell your account, but not the things "created" by this
account. Much the same as some business software. Where, if you want to sell
what the program creates, and not use it for personal use, you need to buy a
hefty licence.

I think the people that thought this up are good entrepeneurs. Though, as
ive come to understand, most things that come about from people just wanting
to make money, make more people unhappy. (see your local Bank, Telco or
Lawyer for examples :-)

Haldamere,
14 Armsman,
Percival.


"Rob Adams" <rob.nosp...@telus.net> wrote in message

news:qPg88.2810$Qq1.13999@shaw-ty2...

Koneg

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 4:30:26 PM2/6/02
to
In our last episode,
Rob Adams <rob.nosp...@telus.net> scribbled the following:

>"Jim Carson" <jcar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:f26cec66.02020...@posting.google.com...
>> I have seen at least one poster in this forum request
>> realm gold for real cash.
>>
>> If what is alleged is true, is Mythic in the
>> right to shut this kind of thing down?
>
>Nope, and I'd be really surprised if they could win a lawsuit. Even if the
>EULA says players can't do this (I haven't read it!), most EULA's won't
>stand up to a good team of lawyers with "free enterprise" on their side.
>Mythic should spend the money on game improvements (and testers) instead of
>on lawyers.

Uh, so good to see you didn't read what was going on. Mythic hasn't any
choice but to spend money on lawyers. THEY are the target of the legal
action, not the other way around.

Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 4:56:50 PM2/6/02
to
"Koneg" <ko...@no-spam.thewebmasters.net> wrote in message
news:slrna637vu...@12-231-11-54.client.attbi.com...

Who fired the first shot, Koneg? Mythic tried to shut BSI down, which gave
them instant publicity (well, here anyway) and generated a lawsuit. The
legal action would go away if Mythic would back down.

A bit of quick eBay searching shows me lots of DAoC characters and items for
sale, and I'm sure the same goes for EQ, AC, etc. Stuff was probably there
the day after the game was released.

p.s. There's something wrong here - me, a left-wing Canadian, defending free
enterprise. I guess I'm just a realist. Why waste time on battles that are
already lost?


Koneg

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 6:10:45 PM2/6/02
to

And that's what started the ball rolling. Mythic told Ebay to remove the
item and gold sales from the service. BSI objected to that.

>p.s. There's something wrong here - me, a left-wing Canadian, defending free
>enterprise. I guess I'm just a realist. Why waste time on battles that are
>already lost?

Because they're worth fighting? Oh, wait... that's right. You're Canadian.

<grinning, ducking, running>

Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 6:35:36 PM2/6/02
to
"Koneg" <ko...@no-spam.thewebmasters.net> wrote in message
news:slrna63ds1.l67.koneg@12-231-11-

> > Rob Adams <rob.nosp...@telus.net> scribbled the following:
> >p.s. There's something wrong here - me, a left-wing Canadian, defending
free
> >enterprise. I guess I'm just a realist. Why waste time on battles that
are
> >already lost?
>
> Because they're worth fighting? Oh, wait... that's right. You're Canadian.
>
> <grinning, ducking, running>

Ok, that's it! Me and you, centre ice. Drop da gloves and go at it, Canadian
style! :)

Rob (who quit playing hockey way before we were even allowed to fight)


Brona

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 9:25:18 PM2/6/02
to
> Rob Adams wrote ...

> Who fired the first shot, Koneg? Mythic tried to shut BSI down, which gave
> them instant publicity (well, here anyway) and generated a lawsuit. The
> legal action would go away if Mythic would back down.

I'd say the peddlers of DAoC items fired the first shot, especially if the
EULA says you're not supposed to sell items on Ebay.

> A bit of quick eBay searching shows me lots of DAoC characters and items
for
> sale, and I'm sure the same goes for EQ, AC, etc. Stuff was probably there
> the day after the game was released.

I thought I heard that Verant, with the help of Ebay, was shutting down
auctions for EQ items. I could be mistaken.

Personally, I'm glad Mythic is doing something about it. I think UO was
poorer for not stopping items from being sold on Ebay. I think I remember
the dev's at OSI being pleased when they found out UO gold was actually
being sold for RL money. I guess I don't mind if people advertise that they
are selling items for in-game gold, but it's people that farm items for real
dollars, like BSI is doing, that bothers me. Go Mythic!

Kevin
Caohmin, 39th Level Armsman
Defenders of Albion, Iseult

V1mt0

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 3:30:45 AM2/7/02
to
It seems to me that it is a sad day for some sad bastard to pay real
cash for gold in a computer game. I say let them do it (and when they
are 50 they will look back and realise what idiots they have been),
but at least let mythic run the exchchange so they can reinvest it in
new staff/kit. It is after all their idea and the legal
interpretations of who "owns" the gold can be quite objective.

Anyway...save your money - go outside and do something more
interesting with it (my advice...buy the new Liverpool FC away shirt).

See you cats later.
King V1mt0 of the Scalliwags


involved...jcarson7@hotmail.com (Jim Carson) wrote in message news:<f26cec66.02020...@posting.google.com>...

I am Nomad

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 8:39:29 AM2/7/02
to
On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:40:26 -0000, ko...@no-spam.thewebmasters.net (Koneg)
wrote:

>In our last episode,
> Jim Carson <jcar...@hotmail.com> scribbled the following:
>

>>Should this kind of thing be shut down? Is it
>>a form of cheating?
>
>IMHO Yes, it most certainly is cheating. You want something, go earn it.

There are people who would like to play the game, but can't afford it. You can,
and you pay real world dollars. What is the difference morally between your
paying real dollars for the ability to play?

Jim Carson

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 11:30:04 AM2/7/02
to
"Rob Adams" <rob.nosp...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<zxf88.2808$Qq1.13956@shaw-ty2>...

> "Jim Carson" <jcar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f26cec66.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > I have seen at least one poster in this forum request
> > realm gold for real cash.
> >
> > If what is alleged is true, is Mythic in the
> > right to shut this kind of thing down?
>
> Nope, and I'd be really surprised if they could win a lawsuit. Even if the
> EULA says players can't do this (I haven't read it!), most EULA's won't
> stand up to a good team of lawyers with "free enterprise" on their side.
> Mythic should spend the money on game improvements (and testers) instead of
> on lawyers.

I checked the EULA, and was surprised to see that it explicitly
forbids sale of items or characters.

"9. Selling of Items

You may not sell or auction any Game characters, items,
coin or copyrighted material.

The selling of items, coins or any copyrighted part of
the Game's player character whether through online
auctions (for example Ebay), newsgroup or postings on
message board is in violation of this EULA as well as
Mythic's Player Code of Conduct. In addition to violating
our agreement, selling items and/or coin violates our
legal rights and may constitute misappropriation,
and/or tortuous interference with our business and
tarnishes the goodwill in the Dark Age of Camelot(tm)
name."

Also, as another poster pointed out, BSI is suing
Mythic for allegedly attempting to stifle BSI's
business.

Mark Stephens

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 12:02:09 PM2/7/02
to
I can only hope it gets thrown out quickly.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to perserve the spirit of the game.
I don't want to compete with players who are playing for real money. In
that sense, ruining the spirit of the game could cost Mythic real dollars,
and in that case I think they have a good leg to stand on. Being a
subscription service they might have even mor eleverage from the standpoint
that they can kick people out of their club who do not abide by their rules.
I don't want to imagine a society where you know longer have the right to
define terms of association, as long as those terms do not violate civil
rights.

mark

"Jim Carson" <jcar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >

> I checked the EULA, and was surprised to see that it explicitly

Mark Donnison

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 12:10:29 PM2/7/02
to
Jim Carson wrote:
<big snip>

> Also, as another poster pointed out, BSI is suing
> Mythic for allegedly attempting to stifle BSI's
> business.

BSI aught to feel greatfull that they were able to make
any money at all, never mind continue to do so. If BSI
win it could spell disaster for online gaming for a number
of reasons, it hinges on who the virtual commodities
actually belong to.

Mythic 'aught' to win this case.

Mark


Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 12:58:11 PM2/7/02
to
"Mark Stephens" <mark.kil...@one.net> wrote in message
news:u65cjnr...@news.supernews.com...

> I don't see anything wrong with trying to perserve the spirit of the game.
> I don't want to compete with players who are playing for real money. In
> that sense, ruining the spirit of the game could cost Mythic real dollars,
> and in that case I think they have a good leg to stand on. Being a
> subscription service they might have even mor eleverage from the
standpoint
> that they can kick people out of their club who do not abide by their
rules.
> I don't want to imagine a society where you know longer have the right to
> define terms of association, as long as those terms do not violate civil
> rights.

All valid points, except who are you "competing" with? Until you reach L50
there will ALWAYS be somebody who can kill you just because they are higher
level. Whether they got there by "cheating" (buying items, chars, whatever)
or through their own effort is irrelevant.

I still believe that the type of person who would spend RL cash to buy items
is in the minority. They will play with their new toy for a while then get
tired of it when something new takes their fancy. The true spirit of the
game will be reflected in the 98% of players who built their character up
from the start, making friends along the way.

I'm not saying buying and selling characters and items is "right" or
"wrong", I'm saying it isn't worth trying to stop because you CAN'T. Mythic
should concentrate on what they do well - developing and enhancing the game
world. Once they start chasing down the sellers they will open up a can of
worms they will never be able to close.


Mark Stephens

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 1:24:05 PM2/7/02
to

"Rob Adams" <rob.nosp...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:Tez88.2836$Qq1.14201@shaw-ty2...

>
> All valid points, except who are you "competing" with? Until you reach L50
> there will ALWAYS be somebody who can kill you just because they are
higher

I should have explained. Imagine sitting at the undead ruins waiting for
some yellow undeads to spawn and having another group of players around.
Usually it is quite friendly. We take different sides and try not to steal
kills from the players. Do you think someone playing to sell the account
would play in the same manner? Why would they since they are playing to
level and then sell the account. In a group why would they be concerned
abotut he other group members health? Wouldn't they be playing for max
experience vs time only?

> I still believe that the type of person who would spend RL cash to buy
items
> is in the minority. They will play with their new toy for a while then get
> tired of it when something new takes their fancy. The true spirit of the
> game will be reflected in the 98% of players who built their character up
> from the start, making friends along the way.

I think I can agree with you here.

> "wrong", I'm saying it isn't worth trying to stop because you CAN'T.
Mythic
> should concentrate on what they do well - developing and enhancing the
game

IANAL but I think they have to inforce their license or it loses it's legal
weight. Obviously I'm not a lawyer :) The 'how many would do this' is a
good argument. Mythic must think it would be enough to damage the game.

mark

Mr. Callahan

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 1:34:57 PM2/7/02
to
"I am Nomad" <No...@accesstoledo.delSPAMme.com> wrote in message
news:or056u829rnk0j8kk...@4ax.com...

The difference is that you agreed not to sell the game items by clicking the
"accept" button. It's all there in the EULA. Someone is suing Mythic because
they can't make money off Mythic's product. Personally, I don't care if they
sell the stuff or not, but they should burn in hell for agreeing not to,
then doing it anyway. Then they disguise their greed as "players' rights",
which pisses me off to no end. Don't pretend you are championing me when
greed is your real cause. They offer many pathetic reasons for suing, such
as "The person that plays just a few hours a week, can't put in the time
required to build their character or collect the items needed to join others
in the online battles." What a joke. I don't have time to take my level of
play in Quake to a professional level, should I sue id? Next thing you know
there will be a warning on game boxes: "Must have X amount of free time to
enjoy game." Just one more stupid lawsuit to clog up our system. Thanks,
BSI!

Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 1:38:27 PM2/7/02
to
"Mark Stephens" <mark.kil...@one.net> wrote in message
news:u65hdg7...@news.supernews.com...

> "Rob Adams" <rob.nosp...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:Tez88.2836$Qq1.14201@shaw-ty2...
> >
> > All valid points, except who are you "competing" with? Until you reach
L50
> > there will ALWAYS be somebody who can kill you just because they are
> higher
>
> I should have explained. Imagine sitting at the undead ruins waiting for
> some yellow undeads to spawn and having another group of players around.
> Usually it is quite friendly. We take different sides and try not to
steal
> kills from the players. Do you think someone playing to sell the account
> would play in the same manner? Why would they since they are playing to
> level and then sell the account. In a group why would they be concerned
> abotut he other group members health? Wouldn't they be playing for max
> experience vs time only?

Hmm, hadn't thought of that. That definitely would be a problem. There are
powerlevelers that do that now, even if they aren't in it for the cash, but
the cash-motivated guys would be *much* worse.

I imagine these guys all group together to max their exp gains, so you
probably wouldn't have the misfortune of grouping with them, but I can see
the group waltzing in and taking over if you were in a spot they wanted.

> IANAL but I think they have to inforce their license or it loses it's
legal
> weight. Obviously I'm not a lawyer :) The 'how many would do this' is a
> good argument. Mythic must think it would be enough to damage the game.

Another good point - I believe I've seen this in another context - a legal
claim is only valid if you consistently prosecute all violations of it. A
while ago somebody created a "2001 season" add-on for a Formula 1 game, and
the game developers forced them to take it down, as it violated their
copyright.

Of course by that time the files had been mirrored on hundreds of sites, so
it was a moot point but they still had to make the effort or risk losing
their copyright altogether.


Mr. Callahan

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 1:44:34 PM2/7/02
to
The point is, it IS in the EULA, Mythic wants to enforce it, it should stop.
Personally, I don't care if people sell stuff, but this lawsuit bugs me for
two reasons:

1. BSI is WRONG. They agreed not to sell the stuff, then they did. I'm tired
(as, I'm sure, is everyone else) of people who are clearly wrong suing
people who are totally within their rights. It sets bad precedents.

2. BSI sets the whole thing up as a crusade for "players' rights." BULLSHIT.
They offer asinine reasons and try to drum up support for the poor bastard
who doesn't have time to play the game more than a few hours a week. They
aren't fighting for my rights, they are fighting for their greed.

--
"Now you see that Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb."
Dark Helmet

"Rob Adams" <rob.nosp...@telus.net> wrote in message

news:qPg88.2810$Qq1.13999@shaw-ty2...

Rob Adams

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 1:55:06 PM2/7/02
to
OK, you all have convinced me. It is illegal, based on the EULA, and it does
affect players adversely if other players are powerleveling with a pure
greed motivation.

And it is up to Mythic (I suppose, although I feel sorry for them) to defend
their property rights in this case. Oh boy, more lawyers :(

None of this changes the facts that people are gonna sell their characters,
gold, and items somehow, someway, and it is impossible to stop them all. All
Mythic can stop (maybe) is organizations from springing up around this
"industry".

Well, back to the lawnmowing :)

"Mr. Callahan" <misterc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mWz88.18424$3E5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

Vireth

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 3:14:32 PM2/7/02
to
Jim Carson wrote:


IMO, anyone who knowingly violates the TOS/EULA like this guy did should
be banned, and his characters deleted. That would stop any more action
from this guy, at least until he can build up another character and farm
more gold.

It's stupid to do what this guy did, and then sue Mythic for enforcing
the rules they agreed with to even play the game. It's not violating
anyone's civil rights to stop them from trashing the spirit of the game,
and that's exactly what this guy is doing.

It's not "cheating", but it should be shut down. Selling accounts, as
you pointed out in another post, is against the EULA as well, and should
not be allowed.

--
Vireth Soulsaver
Friar of Pellinor
Overlord of Soulsavers Vengeance

SirTifiable

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 3:47:36 PM2/7/02
to

"Mr. Callahan" <misterc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mWz88.18424$3E5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> The point is, it IS in the EULA, Mythic wants to enforce it, it should
stop.
> Personally, I don't care if people sell stuff, but this lawsuit bugs me
for
> two reasons:
>
> 1. BSI is WRONG. They agreed not to sell the stuff, then they did. I'm
tired
> (as, I'm sure, is everyone else) of people who are clearly wrong suing
> people who are totally within their rights. It sets bad precedents.

I mostly agree.

> 2. BSI sets the whole thing up as a crusade for "players' rights."
BULLSHIT.
> They offer asinine reasons and try to drum up support for the poor bastard
> who doesn't have time to play the game more than a few hours a week. They
> aren't fighting for my rights, they are fighting for their greed.

Here I am not so sure.

Maybe some of the things that are currently prohibited by a EULA shouldn't
be.

I think maybe its about time the validity of some EULA's are challenged. I
was just reading an article on the subject of the DMCA, and one of the
things that stuck was that the EULA for some digital books prohibited
reading the book out loud (it wasn't the main part of the article it was
mentioned as a side issue, but it struck a cord.).

--
SirTifiable

"of all the things I lost, I miss my mind the most"

I am Nomad

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 6:08:58 PM2/7/02
to
On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:25:22 GMT, "Haldamere" <takingt...@SPAMhotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Actually, i think most videos state at the beginning that you cant charge
>anyone to view it once you have rented it.
>
>But with this game it is a little different than that. Most rental shops are
>upset about that, because the person you charge a few cents, then will not
>rent the video/hire the mower themselves. As for MMORPG's, the player
>already is registered, so Mythic doesn't lose out there. It is probably more
>a game play issue. Mythic might be worried that the economy will get screwed
>up if low levels are running around with 1000gp. It is also unfair to the
>players that cant afford $100 (us too, so $200 au ) ... they still have to
>kill things to get it....
>

It is also unfair that to others don't have broadband that I do. It is unfair
to me that people on college campuses have T3 connects and WAY too
much time to play.


It is unfair to me that other people have P99s that run at 2 GHz with killer
vid cards.

Hope I can stop feeling abused....


I am Nomad

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 6:15:32 PM2/7/02
to
On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:34:57 GMT, "Mr. Callahan" <misterc...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>"I am Nomad" <No...@accesstoledo.delSPAMme.com> wrote in message
>news:or056u829rnk0j8kk...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:40:26 -0000, ko...@no-spam.thewebmasters.net
>(Koneg)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In our last episode,
>> > Jim Carson <jcar...@hotmail.com> scribbled the following:
>> >
>> >>Should this kind of thing be shut down? Is it
>> >>a form of cheating?
>> >
>> >IMHO Yes, it most certainly is cheating. You want something, go earn it.
>>
>> There are people who would like to play the game, but can't afford it. You
>can,
>> and you pay real world dollars. What is the difference morally between
>your
>> paying real dollars for the ability to play?
>
>The difference is that you agreed

STOP RIGHT THERE!!!

I knew, I just KNEW that no matter how clearly I phrased it, someone would
immediately pull out the TOS and say, "See, it says so right here!"

My question is MORALLY what is the difference?

If the most immoral thing that can be said about people who sell items is they
have broken their solemn promise to Mythic, then I say, "The address for
selling your goods is www.ebay.com."


Mr. Callahan

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 6:39:08 PM2/7/02
to
"I am Nomad" <No...@accesstoledo.delSPAMme.com> wrote in message
news:eh266u4cnpvro6i2r...@4ax.com...

MORALLY: You agreed not to do it, then you did it. MORALLY, you are wrong.
You said, in effect: In exchange for you allowing me to play this game, I
will abide by your rules. MORALLY, you are wrong to break that agreement and
continue playing. Breaking a promise is wrong, MORALLY. I'm not claiming
that anyone has commited some major crime here, but what BSI is doing is
wrong. Why is it ok to agree to a contract and then break it? Would you tell
your kids it's ok to break a promise in the name of greed?


Mr. Callahan

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 6:56:13 PM2/7/02
to
"SirTifiable" <sirti...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IJB88.18103$Hb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
OK, here's my take:

There is a point at which the EULA may overstep acceptable bounds. That is
why you read before you agree. I think that with the speed at which
information travels, any EULA that was overly harsh would be posted on
enough websites, newsgroups, etc. that it would adversely affect game sales.
The first few people that bought the game might get screwed, but companies
would learn pretty quickly what they can and can not get away with. I
haven't personally seen any EULA that goes too far for me as a player. As
long as it is clearly written, though, I don't think anyone should be able
to sue to violate the terms of an agreement they signed (ok, not technically
signed, but it amounts to the same thing). It doesn't matter too much to me
if people sell stuff on ebay, it just pisses me off to see someone else
bringing another lawsuit that they will probably win when they shouldn't.


Mr. Callahan

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 7:02:03 PM2/7/02
to
I'm not all fire and brimstone about this (when rereading my last post, it
came across that way even to me), I just wanted to point out that I did
understand what you were saying, and I personally believe that one should
keep one's promises and abide by contracts. The main thing about this that
pisses me off is not the fact that they broke the agreement, or that they
are selling the stuff, but that they are suing because they can't make money
from Mythic's product.

--
"Now you see that Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb."
Dark Helmet

"Mr. Callahan" <misterc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:weE88.18490$Hb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

Mr. Callahan

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 7:10:02 PM2/7/02
to
"J Bond" <martin.l...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:q1u56uoto9a3n9e2v...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:14:32 GMT, Vireth
> <ree...@this-is-not-for-spam.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >It's not "cheating", but it should be shut down. Selling accounts, as
> >you pointed out in another post, is against the EULA as well, and should
> >not be allowed.
>
>
> Actually mythic endorses account sales.

Where did you get this info? It says in the EULA that you can't sell
characters, but doesn't actually say "accounts." Do they officially support
account sales? Not arguing with you, would just like to know.


I am Nomad

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 7:12:36 PM2/7/02
to
On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:39:08 GMT, "Mr. Callahan" <misterc...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

I hope Mythic gets over the trauma of someone breaking a moral obligation to
them. I hope they don't need grief counselors.

By the way, that address was www.ebay.com.

Mark Stephens

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 9:40:07 PM2/7/02
to
*sigh*

Kids these days, I tell ya.

mark


"I am Nomad" <No...@accesstoledo.delSPAMme.com> wrote in message >

Vireth

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 9:52:41 AM2/8/02
to
J Bond wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:14:32 GMT, Vireth
> <ree...@this-is-not-for-spam.net> wrote:
>
>

>>It's not "cheating", but it should be shut down. Selling accounts, as
>>you pointed out in another post, is against the EULA as well, and should
>>not be allowed.
>>
>
>

> Actually mythic endorses account sales.
>

> Therein lies the basis of the lawsuit. Mythic authorizes the sale of
> thier property in one form, and cannot forbid the sale of the same
> property in another.


Where is it stated that they endorse selling of characters? It's stated
in the EULA that it is not allowed, just like items (see post by Jim
Carson, EULA item #9).

Koneg

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 12:18:41 PM2/8/02
to
In our last episode,
I am Nomad <No...@accesstoledo.delSPAMme.com> scribbled the following:

Because I'm also playing against those who have the ability to pay. Those
who do not have the ability to pay to play have absolutely nothing to do
with this - (here's a hint: All analogies suck)

Koneg

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 12:21:23 PM2/8/02
to
In our last episode,
I am Nomad <No...@accesstoledo.delSPAMme.com> scribbled the following:
>On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:34:57 GMT, "Mr. Callahan" <misterc...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
&