Creatures Development Network, contracts and CyberLife

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Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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Hi again, guys.

We do listen to you and care very much what you think about CyberLife
and CyberLife products, and to that end, we've put together a FAQ that
should answer most of your questions about the Creatures Development
Network.

As for the commercial aspects of CyberLife and Creatures, we want to let
you know why we are doing what we are doing. We get thousands of
requests from Creatures users to provide more and better COBs that they
can *trust*. We get requests to check and monitor 3rd party websites.

We also get tons of requests for merchandise of all types (some like
toys, others prefer shirts, only a very small percentage said they
weren't at all interested). We want to fulfil all these requests and be
a commercially-viable company. We also want very badly to fund the
A-Life research in which we are currently involved. We hope that some of
you may even want to work for CyberLife someday.

So, with that, we ask you to continue to communicate with us and on the
newsgroup and tell us what you think, and in return, we will tell you
all we can about what we are doing and planning and listen to all your
suggestions. Over the next few months you'll see more documents about
our vision and mission on the CyberLife website, as well as tons more
features on the website that you've asked for, so please stay tuned.

As for this FAQ, please email me if you have concerns. We thank you all!

CDN FAQs:

So, this CDN, what's in it for me?
At CyberLife, we have recognised the fact that many Creatures users work
long and hard to create high quality add-ons. We believe that hard work
should be rewarded. The CDN is our way of helping you by providing the
testing, marketing and distribution method whilst supplying you with the
tools and support you require.

What does CyberLife get?
We've also listened to our users requests for good add-ons that they
know have been rigorously tested. While we do write many COBs, there is
a constant demand for more. We also get email from users who want to
ensure that the COBs they get have been quality checked and tested by
us. We felt that the CDN was the best way to do this and still create
very high quality and affordable add-ons.

But I've been building COBs for ages and I haven't needed any help, why
should I get involved?
Because you'll gain the benefit of our experience, new and improved
software tools and a way of distributing your add-ons and make some
money! We provide the transaction system, do the accounting, write the
software tools and help you with the marketing. Don't forget, the
Creatures website get around half a million hits a month and lots of
those people could be buying your software!

Won't this make the whole thing too commercial?
We don't want to limit those developers who want to develop freeware
COBs but we also do not want to ignore those users who have asked for
more and better add-ons. We are committed to providing high quality
add-ons at an affordable price as well as good quality freeware.

But I'm not in it for the money, why is CyberLife?
Don't forget that the people who work at CyberLife need to make a salary
in order to live and support their families. To pay them, we need to
sell a product. The better we do, the more people we can hire and the
more we can pay them. It makes everyone happy! Not only that, but we are
currently doing a lot of research into artificial life that provides us
with no income at all. We need to pay the researchers, buy computers and
pay the electricity bill!

OK, so maybe I do want to be rewarded for my hard work. How much can I
expect to make?
It's hard to say before we see the add-ons and put a value on them, but
say we sell 2000 of one your COBs in 6 months. You would get 20% of the
net receipts. How much would you pay for an excellent COB? Now do the
maths!

Why can't you just give us the development software and not bother with
all this?
A company that gave away all its products would soon go out of business
and we'd all be out of jobs (and there'd be no more Creatures!). To
create the suite of development tools, one of our best (and most
expensive) programmers has to spend months writing the software and
documentation. Then interface artists need to build the graphics. It
costs us a lot of money to do this.

It's all very complicated, this CDN contract. Is it really necessary?
Yes, afraid so. The purpose is to protect us and you from liability.
We've tried to cover all the bases and to do that, a lot of "legalese"
is necessary. Read it carefully before you sign it!

Why do I have to pay £10 to enter the agreement?
To make it legally-binding under UK law a fee has to be exchanged. It's
known as "in consideration." We're not making money on this. The total
fees will only amount to £200 and probably won't even cover the cost of
postage to ship the contracts back and forth!

Does this mean you have rights to anything I've ever developed?
Only those things you develop with our software once you've entered into
the agreement.

What if I want to develop some freebies to give away on my own website?
We want you to develop high quality add-ons that are so good they
deserve to be paid for. It you want to develop smaller things that
perhaps you feel have little commercial value, we would request first
right of refusal and if we reject them, you are welcome to offer them as
freeware yourself.

We're here to advise on the commercial value of your developments and
recommend the best way to distribute them. If you only want to develop
freebies, then you must purchase the software tools from us (or figure
it out yourself!). Again, it's our way of covering our own costs.

The Grant of Rights (section 2) says the right is non-exclusive. What
does that mean?
It means that you are not the only developer with whom we have this
agreement, but we're only looking for about 20 top quality developers at
this time.

What happens if the agreement is cancelled and I want to go my own way?
Then we terminate the agreement. You must give us back the tools and any
copies and any work currently in development. If you want to continue to
develop freeware add-ons, you must purchase the tools.

Section 14.7 says that "neither party has the authority to bind the
other." What does that mean?
Essentially it means that you can't go out and enter into another
contract in our name. So, for example, you couldn't install a telephone
and have the bills sent to us! Nor could we enter into agreements in
your name, so it works both ways.

I'm under 18. Can I still be a developer?
Your parents can enter into the agreement on your behalf, but royalties
will be paid to them.

I'm in the US and CyberLife is in the UK; how can I be legally bound by
this contract?
A huge amount of commerce is transacted between the US and UK, between
individuals and companies. You can bind yourself under an agreement in
law anywhere in the world: it's generally more straightforward to
interpret, and enforce, between the US and UK where commercial law has a
great deal in common. Once we sign with each other, we're bound to each
other under this contract, whether in the US or UK

I'm not sure about all this legal stuff. Who can I get to help me?
If you have doubts, you should consult a qualified solicitor or
attorney. If you are under 18, please discuss this with your parents.
This is a legally-binding contract and should not be entered into
lightly. Don't sign anything unless you are completely comfortable with
the arrangement.

If you still have questions, please email lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk

Lisa de Araujo
CyberLife Technology Ltd
Quayside, Bridge Street, Cambridge, UK CB58AB
direct: +44 1223 727038 fax: +44 1223 727001

http://www.cyberlife.co.uk http://www.cyberbiology.org

Denise L. Voskuil

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:01:58 +0100, Lisa de Araujo
<lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:
>OK, so maybe I do want to be rewarded for my hard work. How much can I
>expect to make?
>It's hard to say before we see the add-ons and put a value on them, but
>say we sell 2000 of one your COBs in 6 months. You would get 20% of the
>net receipts. How much would you pay for an excellent COB? Now do the
>maths!

My math comes out to look pretty poor, as I would pay _very little_
(perhaps $0.25 or slightly more) and _very infrequently_ for a COB.
Why should I, as plenty of people now are making excellent COBs for
free, and I know what makers do reliable work? If it's being set up
such that only people who make contracts with you can make COBs, then
I have one less reason to rush out and buy Creatures 2. See, I'd
already have to pay a lot for an upgrade chip, as the processor in my
computer is too slow to run it, so the thought of having to pay more
money for tiny little 3rd-party "upgrades" is discouraging.

- Denise

--
Denise L. Voskuil-Marré - dvos...@mcs.com
http://www.mcs.net/~dvoskuil/
----BEGIN_C-ADD_CODE_BLOCK----
Version Number: 1.2
AMD d+() s+: a-- x- t-@:- C+ r? A-- S- gQ/W--- W+ P---
Gd*/S--:,Civilization/p*/o++:+++,Tomba!,Pocket Fighter,
Monster Rancher,Tekken 3,Diablo,Klonoa
----END_C-ADD_CODE_BLOCK----

Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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We're not trying to discourage people from creating COBs or even
excellent COBs for free, but have a vision that some really wonderful
and valuable products could come out of this programme, products that
you might be willing to pay for (things like the Genetics Kit, for
example). We see people spending months on projects simply out of the
love of doing it, and that is a wonderful thing. But we also see people
applying for jobs at CyberLife that can't work here, perhaps because
they are in the US and can't get work permits. That's just an example -
there are other reasons people might want to be paid for their time, but
you get the idea. :-)

Please understand, we are not saying we don't want you to continue to
design COBs and things on your own and exchange them - that's what makes
the Creatures community so great! But we want to provide other options
as well.

Again, I have to emphasize this: we're not restricting you from
continuing to develop as you have been, we just want to provide you with
more and better tools and we think this is a way to do it.

Here's a summary:

1. Anybody can make COBS and offer them out. People
cannot independently sell them, since for a commercial activity they
need CyberLife's permission to use any aspect of the game in this way.
(that's a given, really, isn't it?)

2. There is no constraint at all on this activity
continuing for Creatures 2: we will provide technical assistance and
handle enquiries as best we can, just as we did for Creatures 1.

3. We are developing - independent of Creatures 2
development - some specialised tools to assist more people to make
add-ons for Creatures 2, as we have been continually asked to do by
many, many users.

4. These tools will cost a little money. They are a
separate development effort from C2 itself and we need to pay to folks
who develop them, test them etc.

5. The Developers Network was created as a full
service for a handful of very dedicated developers who personally asked
us about the creation of such a program where they would dedicate a
great deal of time to building some high value add-ons. They were
interested in the rights to sell these: we agreed to distribute such
objects ourselves under a commercial arrangement that sees these people
getting a share of the revenues made by selling the add-ons.

Hope this clears up misunderstandings. We don't imagine a commercial
arrangement such as is available under the CDN to appeal to everyone, so
anyone is free to make their COBs widely available. The CDN doesn't
replace anything: it simply provides a full service arrangement for a
handful of developers.

We do like to think of ourselves as "enlightened" after all. ;-)

Please do keep the questions and comments coming!

Lisa

> ----------
> From: dvos...@mcs.com (Denise L. Voskuil)
> Posted At: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 11:22 am
> Posted To: creatures
> Conversation: Creatures Development Network, contracts and
> CyberLife
> Subject: Re: Creatures Development Network, contracts and
> CyberLife


>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:01:58 +0100, Lisa de Araujo
> <lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:

> >OK, so maybe I do want to be rewarded for my hard work. How much can
> I
> >expect to make?
> >It's hard to say before we see the add-ons and put a value on them,
> but
> >say we sell 2000 of one your COBs in 6 months. You would get 20% of
> the
> >net receipts. How much would you pay for an excellent COB? Now do the
> >maths!
>

Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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(Sorry for posting this twice. Our newsreader does weird stuff with
subject fields and didn't want anyone to miss anything!)

Here's a summary:

Lisa

Magic T. Dragon

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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Lisa de Araujo wrote:
>
<crunch>

Will I need a credit card to buy the COBs and utilities? After the
*cough*bankruptcy*cough*, we kinda swore never to use a credit card, mainly
because we don't have any. That's why we didn't get the genetics kit...
--
Posted by the one, the only, Magic the dragon! (74% dragon!)
**~~**~~**
Visit Beanieville!
http://www.geocities.com/~beanievilleusa/
**~~**~~**

DC.D f s++ h++ CWwIrides~W:K^Irides a- $ m d++ WL++* L- Ball e+++ g i+! U-

Lion King Codes v1.51
TLK+++ A+ B D- C L++ Mta++ Psr W++ S++ Tsncaimprtzhb++++
RLHM a- cn++ e-- h++ iw++ lmx pc++ sf#

C-ADD-BLOCK: 1.2.7.1
AST d s-:+ a--- x! t: C rC?/c?/B?/N?/E1?,2?,3?,4?,5+,6?,7?,8?,9++/O?/o? S---
gQ+/W1?,2? W- P--- Gd*:/S--:,SC2k/p-:+/o*:

Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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Unfortunately, no one's come up with a way to purchase on the web
without a credit card, but we are very much aware of the fact that many
people don't have them. We're always on the lookout for alternatives, so
if you come across something, let us know! There's wallet-based systems,
but that's just another way of using a credit card, so...

As far as joining the CDN goes, however, we're open to other
possibilities...

> ----------
> From: Magic T. Dragon
> Posted At: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 3:15 pm
> Posted To: creatures
> Conversation: Re: Creatures Development Network, contracts and


> CyberLife
> Subject: Re: Creatures Development Network, contracts and
> CyberLife
>

Lis Morris

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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Lisa de Araujo wrote in message ...

>Unfortunately, no one's come up with a way to purchase on the web
>without a credit card, but we are very much aware of the fact that many
>people don't have them. We're always on the lookout for alternatives, so
>if you come across something, let us know! There's wallet-based systems,
>but that's just another way of using a credit card, so...
>
>As far as joining the CDN goes, however, we're open to other
>possibilities...

I love the fact you do Switch- it's loads more convenient for me than credit
cards. I hope you keep that up!

T'cephanie Liano'tulon

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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>Will I need a credit card to buy the COBs and utilities? After the
>*cough*bankruptcy*cough*, we kinda swore never to use a credit card,
mainly
>because we don't have any. That's why we didn't get the genetics kit...

>--

Have you tried to get a debit card through your bank. It's a cad, but
acts more like a check as it debits directly from your bank account.
That's how I purchased the genetics kit without the help of a credit
card.

-Moonsinger

Shaun McKinster

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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<snipped>
I assume that if a COb is refused and the author is later terminated from
CDN that any work using the knowledge gained from CDN to "fix it" comes
under the jurisdiction of Cyberlife extended rights. So Cyberlife has
effectivly a "lifelong intellectual rights" to any work of individual that
signed the contract.
This is assuming that cyberlife refuses works instead of accepting them and
never publishing them. Seems that any CDN member is effectively a lifelong
employee without pay(commision based). As for offering free COBs- all works
must first be submitted to Cyberlife and refused. As for information gleaned
from CDN theres a "GAG" clause I am sure that prevents (ex)member from
divulging or distributing same in any form(WEB page/FAQs/Newspost/etc).
Now for the painful part Cyberlifes right to "sue" for lost income by
(ex)members actions(releasing info/COBs etc without Cyberlife approval).

T'cephanie Liano'tulon

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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>Unfortunately, no one's come up with a way to purchase on the web
>without a credit card, but we are very much aware of the fact that many

>people don't have them. We're always on the lookout for alternatives,
so
>if you come across something, let us know! There's wallet-based
systems,
>but that's just another way of using a credit card, so...

How about something like Redi-check? www.redi-check.com. It seems to
allow electronic processing of checks, rather than credit cards.

-Moonsinger


slink

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:01:58 +0100, Lisa de Araujo
<lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:

>Why do I have to pay £10 to enter the agreement?
>To make it legally-binding under UK law a fee has to be exchanged.

Does this mean that verbal and/or written agreements without exchange
of fees are not binding in the UK? Very interesting, if true, in my
case.

>What if I want to develop some freebies to give away on my own website?
>We want you to develop high quality add-ons that are so good they
>deserve to be paid for. It you want to develop smaller things that
>perhaps you feel have little commercial value, we would request first
>right of refusal and if we reject them, you are welcome to offer them as
>freeware yourself.
>

Clause 4.2

The Developer hereby assigns to CyberLife all rights in the Work
wherever subsisting.

Clause 6.1

CyberLife shall have the entire control of all aspects of the Work
and, in particular, the sole discretion as to whether to publish the
Work . . .

Nothing is said in any place about "rights of first refusal".

I also notice nothing is said about rights to audit profits in case of
royalty dispute, as is common in US royalty agreements. Not that I
expect there to be any profits to audit. :)


--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
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R+ tv-- b++(++++)@ DI++++ D G e++++ h+(++)($) r+++ x+++

Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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In article <35D9E2DC...@hotmail.com>, storm...@hotmail.com wrote:

That's a good possibility, though I suspect that because CyberLife don't
have a US bank account it won't be possible in the short term, but it does
indicate that things are moving towards easing restrictions on non-credit
card holders.

I'll give them a call and see if this will work for us. In any event, I
may put "do you have a credit card?" on the next survey form which may
convince our finance director to set up a US bank account (or something)!

Well-spotted!

Lisa

T'cephanie Liano'tulon

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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Thank you, and you're welcome. There are a couple services like that.
There's also some sort of "Net-bank" thing. I don't know a whole lot
about it, but from what I understand, you put extra money on your
telephone account and if you buy anything off the internet from
participating stores, it's debited from the excesse you have with the
phone company. ::shrugs:: Dunno.

-Moonsinger


Shaun McKinster

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Aug 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/18/98
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You do put it better than I did and you used their words.
<grin>

slink

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:08:37 -0500, REMOVE_...@mindspring.com
(eric leif) wrote:

>In article <35d9f39f...@news.netins.net>, sl...@netins.net says...


>> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:01:58 +0100, Lisa de Araujo
>> <lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:

>> >What if I want to develop some freebies to give away on my own website?
>> >We want you to develop high quality add-ons that are so good they
>> >deserve to be paid for. It you want to develop smaller things that
>> >perhaps you feel have little commercial value, we would request first
>> >right of refusal and if we reject them, you are welcome to offer them as
>> >freeware yourself.
>> >
>

>> Clause 4.2
>>
>> The Developer hereby assigns to CyberLife all rights in the Work
>> wherever subsisting.
>>
>> Clause 6.1
>>
>> CyberLife shall have the entire control of all aspects of the Work
>> and, in particular, the sole discretion as to whether to publish the
>> Work . . .
>>
>> Nothing is said in any place about "rights of first refusal".
>

>I think she is just using a softer term than what was said in the
>contract that pretty much said, they have the rights to all work you do
>with the information they give you, and all the work has to be sent to
>them. Their "first refusal" is the part about within 28 days they will
>let you know what they wish to do with it, publish in any form or not.
>Although I don't remember reading anything about them releasing the
>rights back to the signer in the event they don't want to publish it.
>

Precisely my point.

>I don't even know what that contract online *is*, it has to be signed and
>witnessed, how that is to be done I don't know. But either way I can only
>surmise the *real* contract will be coming in the mail after you jump
>through the hoops at the website. As to any similarity between that
>contract and the real one who knows.
>

Since they posted this as the contract under consideration it would be
misrepresentation for them to supply a different contract upon
acceptance into the project. One wonders whose side you are on here.
<g>

I *can* tell you that when I signed a contract with them it was sent
to me in E-Mail, returned in duplicate to them via Registered mail
with the required signature and witnessing on both copies, and they
returned one copy to me with their signature. I presume the procedure
will be the same for this contract with those who choose to
participate.

Madame Mim

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
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slink wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:01:58 +0100, Lisa de Araujo
> <lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:
>

> >Why do I have to pay £10 to enter the agreement?
> >To make it legally-binding under UK law a fee has to be exchanged.
>

> Does this mean that verbal and/or written agreements without exchange
> of fees are not binding in the UK? Very interesting, if true, in my
> case.

Now UK law isn't my speciality (like I actually have one *lol*) but
Australian law can't be all that different and the formation of a contract
requires the exchange of good or services or promises of goods or services.

So Cyberlife 'gives' information, software and a forum for the sale of your
productions. You give the product of your time and effort and the data which
you generated along the way plus £10.

Hmm, I can understand why Cyberlife would want the money - it will definitely
slow down people who just want the software and information who won't be
major producers but the people who really benefit (as far as I can see) are
Cyberlife and people willing to pay for 'safe' COBs (which brings me to the
indemnity clauses in this contract and most sale contacts - you know what I
mean)


> >What if I want to develop some freebies to give away on my own website?
> >We want you to develop high quality add-ons that are so good they
> >deserve to be paid for. It you want to develop smaller things that
> >perhaps you feel have little commercial value, we would request first
> >right of refusal and if we reject them, you are welcome to offer them as
> >freeware yourself.
> >
>

> Clause 4.2
>
> The Developer hereby assigns to CyberLife all rights in the Work
> wherever subsisting.
>
> Clause 6.1
>
> CyberLife shall have the entire control of all aspects of the Work
> and, in particular, the sole discretion as to whether to publish the
> Work . . .

See my thread on the Contract Simplified

--
The truth is out there - but the lies are in your head.

Sex is great - but I prefer the real thing.

Quisquarles Meglyn Alpha Plieadese-Pimor
aka Madame Mim
aka Sarax (trader on SB Omega)
aka Megan <meg...@kern.com>
http://members.tripod.com/~MadameMim

Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
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You guys are getting way beyond me at this point. To be honest, the
contract will be between the contractor who chooses to participate and
CyberLife, and since I'm not an attorney/solicitor I think I'm going to
bow out of the speculation about the legalities.

However, our business development director has suggested that we set up a
separate mailing list for those who would like to discuss the contract
with him and anyone who would like to do this can contact me.

I just went through the survey results that most of you filled in and
*the* one most frequent comment was that people wanted COBs they could
trust and wanted CyberLife to test them. Now, it takes about 4 or 5 hours
to test a single COB and that costs us in salaries and overhead. So we
can't just go out and test COBs without justifying it to the finance guys.
So the CDN was a way of fulfilling the request.

Those of you who aren't comfortable with the contract shouldn't get
involved. You'll be able to buy the development tools and will be able to
do almost anything you want at that point. We're also looking at other
kinds of programmes that you can get involved in. I'd really welcome any
suggestions you have in this regard (just remember that it has to be
commercially-viable! I can't do anything without the financial types being
happy with it ;-))

Now, I'll add one more thing off the CyberLife record, as it were: 1.
contracts are horrible, scary things, but unfortunately they are a fact of
life. I had to sign an employment contract, and I did when I was in the
states as well. Here in the UK, of course, employment contracts (of one
form or another) are the law. CyberLife wants the best for all of you (and
its employees). It's definitely not the kind of company that would take
advantage of anyone. I would never work for a company that didn't have
very high ethical standards and CyberLife has among the highest. Now, you
don't know me, but that's the truth. It's very important to me.

So, that's about it, I guess...


In article <MPG.1043e85ec...@news.mindspring.com>,
REMOVE_...@mindspring.com (eric leif) wrote:

> In article <eDstYWuy9GA.263@upnetnews05>, SHA...@email.msn.com says...
> > <snipped>
> [snip]


>
> > This is assuming that cyberlife refuses works instead of accepting them and
> > never publishing them. Seems that any CDN member is effectively a lifelong
> > employee without pay(commision based). As for offering free COBs- all works
> > must first be submitted to Cyberlife and refused.
>

> That seems to be the conclusion I came to as well


>
> > As for information gleaned
> > from CDN theres a "GAG" clause I am sure that prevents (ex)member from
>

> Yeah in the form of 8 years if I read it correctly. And it manifests
> itself as not allowing you to do anything with the information you got
> from them. I can only assume you will likely get a full CAOS reference, a
> variety of editors for making COBs, perhaps improved knowledge of the
> genetics, so to do anything in creatures, except play, would likely (as
> it would be interpreted legally) base it on the information you got from
> them.
>
> Given that you can't do anything with the information after the contract
> has been broken, and you can only send the product to cyberlife while you
> are contracted. I would pose the question how could one bounded by the
> contract develop anything for free? And also how could someone not on
> contact get any information to make free products?
>
> Now as a realist, I don't really see why they will sell you information
> and contract you to secrecy and then with the other hand allow others to
> get it for free in order to make free products. Lets already say now that
> pretty much every COB existant now is broken when C2 comes out, one for
> the langauge changes and two for the COB format changes.
>
> This can also go a step further, there is a vested interest (to protect
> the developers that have contributed money to cyberlife) to keep the
> value (to the paying developer) of this information. In order to keep
> this value the information would not be available UNLESS you joined the
> CDN, payed the fee, signed the contract etc.
>
> Lets take this a bit further, as a contracted developer you will be
> sending your "work" to cyberlife for assumably quality control,
> improvement, that kind of thing. Perhaps a paranoid view, but would it be
> a large stretch of the imagination that cyberlife at this point will do
> something to prevent the information discussed above to be gathered by
> someone else not under contract, that may purchase these products. For
> example by examining the products, the file formats, the strings present
> etc. My predictions with some thoughts on the basis are below, any
> cyberlife employee daring enough to give a yes or no to them?
>
>
>
> - Most COBs will be broken, either by the language changes or the format
> changes. In other words every COB will need to be updated at minimum to
> conform to the new COB format.
>
> - To give CDN any value the information released through that channel has
> to be stuff that you cannot get for free. So there will be none or
> limited free information (not all that different from C1 actually).
>
> - The only good thing about interpreted languages is the quick coding to
> run-time debugging stage (ie skipping the compiler). I hear that there
> will be some kind of run-time kind of enviornment to test the COBs
> without the hassle of injecting them into a live world (where the
> aforementioned debugging began in C1). In order to make that stage more
> useful you could potentionally get more from an intermediate stage. Like
> for instance a compiled output that has been debugged COB that will work
> when injected.
> (The above serves a number of purposes many of which cyberlife has said
> are needed. The COB can't really get past the first step with game
> crashing bugs, so any COB you can inject would have passed that stage and
> of course be somewhat stable and safe. For those who wanted more
> dependable or safer COBs.)
>
> -A corrilary of the above, I believe it would be a good idea to get
> either a compiled or bytecode COB that can be injected. First it could
> potentially be much faster, and as I stated above it would be all
> together safer. As it is now you can put any kind of error you want in a
> COB and crash creatures with it. The idea here is that only valid
> language contructs would be intrepreted to the eventual output weither it
> be some binary format or a intermediate bytecode. This also convientently
> will help obscure the information about making COBs. This I don't mind so
> much as its certainly an interested puzzle to figure out. And since all
> 3rd party developed products have to go through cyberlife you could throw
> in a final step of further mystifing by encryption or some other similar
> method. It would certainly make the puzzle more difficult. And conversly
> make the information for sale more valuable.
>
> -And finally which follows from the above, I wouldn't be surprised if the
> C2 license specifically disallows one from descerning the "information"
> from the COBs distributed and any distributed later. Although that
> specifically isn't needed if the COB will be "altered" as the actual
> executable would need to unalter it. And most licenses prevent anyone
> from getting into the executable, where these processes would reside.
>
> TIA!

Matthew Collier

unread,
Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
to
And here's what Lisa de Araujo sez, with a mouth full of PEZ!

> How much would you pay for an excellent COB?

ok, how much would we pay for one decent cob, considering that cyberlife
were, for c1, giving us sets of 5 or 6 cobs for free...
personally, i say not much...

matt of NORN
director of system failures

a.k.a.
eye-ball iggy of the jolly weeble

proud member of the wolfpack, and now dedicated south park fan

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Rocketgrl

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
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lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk (Lisa de Araujo) saidith :

>You guys are getting way beyond me at this point. To be honest, the
>contract will be between the contractor who chooses to participate and
>CyberLife, and since I'm not an attorney/solicitor I think I'm going to
>bow out of the speculation about the legalities.

Of course we are. If we GOT the point, then that would mean the
thread would be over and we wouldn't get to bibble pointlessly to each
other about how cynical and evil we think Cyberlife has become (I'm
just joking! Don't worry...I don't happen to think you're evil.
You're a big company. You have to do...uh...stuff...). Naturally, we
have to keep this thread going until we piss off as many people as
possible.

**~~<g>~~**


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Martha Brummett

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
to
lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk (Lisa de Araujo) wrote:

>I just went through the survey results that most of you filled in and
>*the* one most frequent comment was that people wanted COBs they could
>trust and wanted CyberLife to test them.

That surprises me. I'd think people would want to play with as many
interesting ones as possible, and if they don't work, so what? Those
can be debugged if the idea and most of the code is good.

>You'll be able to buy the development tools and will be able to
>do almost anything you want at that point.

Well, that's a relief. I wouldn't mind paying for a CAOS manual--I
buy HTML books, etc.

> We're also looking at other
>kinds of programmes that you can get involved in. I'd really welcome any
>suggestions you have in this regard (just remember that it has to be
>commercially-viable! I can't do anything without the financial types being
>happy with it ;-))

As the saying goes--"if it works, don't fix it". So far, the free
distribution of CObs and (most) utilities harms no one that I can see.
So the attempt to commercialize it looks a little money-grubbing.


Martha Brummett
Piratical Maid-of-All-Work, P.B.* Jolly Weeble
mo...@diac.com
Bonadrey Nornery
http://www.diac.com/~mokus/bonadrey.html

* Pirate Brig

Shaun McKinster

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
to
<Snip, sorry>

those people, including myself, that are expressing concern may have good
reasons to warn others of contracts that bind one party to the extent that
CND summary does. I am sure there are a few that have been stung, gagged, or
threatened with legal actions. The contract is not a simple employment
contract which have limits and restrictions of power by the governing law.
I dont begrudge Cyberlife profit margins only they means that they achieve
it through the contract. Cyberlife has the right to be fairly compensated
for C2 and any other product they package or license.
If it was Cyberlifes intention to offer this CDN site information to only
20 people then they should have contacted them privately with their offer
and not bothered everyone with a SDKit announcment. By all means offer the
packages and addons with good documentation and you will profit. Trickle out
the info slowly and others will beat you to the market again.

Shaun McKinster

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
to
About the online contract.
Its only a contract summary, the actual contract is mailed which probable
has all that tiny print that if magnified will put you to sleep after 2
lines. Thats were the contracted party gets ******.
Cyberlife has spent 9 months perfecting the legal language (first SDK
announcement). Im sure the printed page will reflect it.

Shaun McKinster

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Aug 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/19/98
to

T'cephanie Liano'tulon wrote in message <35DB6B08...@hotmail.com>...
<snipped abit, soory>
>there is a market for these COBS in people who want only stuff >who want
only stuff that has been tested by Cyberlife.

Considering Cyberlifes track record with COB and SFC testing consider the
carrot, coconut, and "egg in the sky" which still plague new users. Not
mentioning the little quirks of some things released.

There are such people. Some of them are paranoid, other just don't have the
computer knowledge to deal with third party cobs, which at the moment
require finding, unzipping, and placing in the correct file.

You still got to have basic zip experiance in downloading the C2 COBs. Also
what happens when your COB gets overwritten by accident, buy the COBs
again?$$$

>But, it appears that the tools Cyberlife is going to offer to the CDN
>are going to be available to everyone, at a price. So, if you want to
>make COBS for free and distribute them as you have been, you'll still be
able to do so.

Only if you havent signed the contract

So, maybe we should just keep into
>account that everytime someone buys a CDN COB they're giving a little to
>the Norn Research fund, and anytime someone buys the program tools,
>they're also contributing.

A lot of people have been researching, improving, and suggesting ways to
improve the product. How many sites do other games have per software package
sold(1:~500). Cyberlife doesnt support these peoples efforts finacially.
>
>I know it would be more fun to just have the developmental software and
>make COBs and give them out as we see fit. But I think we also want to
>see our norns grow in complexity. Alot of this only Cyberlife can do.
>So, maybe we should stop arguing with them, and keep providing them with
>ideas of what we want to see i future updates and add-ons.
>

No offense, Were telling them we dont want our free creativity under their
financial control.

>I hope I haven't offended anyone with this,
>Moonsinger
>

T'cephanie Liano'tulon

unread,
Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
I don't personally make COBs, but I would still like to add my two cents
worth.

I don't see anything wrong with the CDN for people who want to work for
Cyberlife, and potentially get paid for the time and effort they put
into creating their COBs. And, as Lisa has informed us, there is a


market for these COBS in people who want only stuff who want only stuff

that has been tested by Cyberlife. There are such people. Some of them


are paranoid, other just don't have the computer knowledge to deal with
third party cobs, which at the moment require finding, unzipping, and
placing in the correct file.

But, it appears that the tools Cyberlife is going to offer to the CDN


are going to be available to everyone, at a price. So, if you want to
make COBS for free and distribute them as you have been, you'll still be
able to do so.

Cyberlife is a big company, and they've done a tremendious amount of
work. We all love creatures and we're not the only ones. Any company
needs money in order to survive, and grow. I should think we all want
Cyberlife to continue to expand, because that's the only way we can get
better A-Life programs from them. So, maybe we should just keep into


account that everytime someone buys a CDN COB they're giving a little to
the Norn Research fund, and anytime someone buys the program tools,
they're also contributing.

I know it would be more fun to just have the developmental software and


make COBs and give them out as we see fit. But I think we also want to
see our norns grow in complexity. Alot of this only Cyberlife can do.
So, maybe we should stop arguing with them, and keep providing them with
ideas of what we want to see i future updates and add-ons.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this,
Moonsinger


klaas

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
Hi cyberlife-people,

your ideas are so stupid! (sorry)

We loved the game for such a long time, because independent people made
great cobs and utilities! And these independent people created the
creatures community! They worked for the continuing success of the game.
Otherwise we wouldn't have played creatures more than some weeks, I
guess.
If many of them will not agree with your contracts (and I wouldn't, if I
were a Cob-developer), I'll not very interested in C2 because it will be
a game as many others. And I'm thinking about closing my german
Creatures Web Site, when no longer a lot of cobs and utilities will be
offered from independent creatures fans.

Klaas (13, from Germany, so excuse my poor English)

____________________________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/2303/index.htm

Jcarrcwalk

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
>I'm thinking about closing my german
>Creatures Web Site, when no longer a lot of cobs and utilities will be
>offered from independent creatures fans.

Nein, bitte! Machen Sie Ihr Ort noch offen. Ich bin nur 14. Entschueldigungen,
bitte, mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut.
Andrew

NORNGod

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
Lisa de Araujo wrote:
>
[CDN Stuff snipped]

Well I don't really develop COBs or anything, so I'm staying somewhat
neutral on the issue....but it seems that it's already driven away one
great cobber. If anyone hasn't already noticed, or seen Ali's thread,
Alexander Laemmle (sp?) closed up shop.
--
God of the Norns? Nah I think not:

NORNGod (Who just had a major hard drive problem, and lost loads of
stuff)
nor...@hotmail.com
NORNGod's NORNMania! (Creatures)
http://members.xoom.com/norngod
*~*~*~*
Drew Styring's HomePage (Personal)
http://members.xoom.com/dstyring
*~*~*~*
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. " - Albert Einstein

Lisa de Araujo

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
Just for the record, we're not big, we're 40 people in one big room!
(plus Steve in a room somewhere else). :-)

> ----------
> From: rocketgrl...@thevortex.com (Rocketgrl)
> Reply To: rocketgrl...@thevortex.com
> Posted At: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 11:07 pm
> Posted To: creatures
> Conversation: Creatures Development Network, contracts and


> CyberLife
> Subject: Re: Creatures Development Network, contracts and
> CyberLife
>

> lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk (Lisa de Araujo) saidith :
>

> >You guys are getting way beyond me at this point. To be honest, the
> >contract will be between the contractor who chooses to participate
> and
> >CyberLife, and since I'm not an attorney/solicitor I think I'm going
> to
> >bow out of the speculation about the legalities.
>

Lisa de Araujo

unread,
Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to

> No offense, Were telling them we dont want our free creativity under
> their
> financial control.
>
No problem. As someone said (who was it? Eric?), we should have
contacted those 20 people personally who we wanted to join. That's
probably quite true. But we're not a big company and sometimes we have
to learn our lessons the hard way.

You guys do so much to drive what we do and how we do business, I think
you don't realise how valuable you are to us. So please don't flame us,
just tell us what it is you want and we'll try to give it to you. We're
not forcing anyone to do anything...


slink

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to

Are you sure? The copy I printed out from online was 7 pages long and
had all the spots for signing, etc. It was 4 pages shorter than the
one I signed for the genome work but even more restrictive in content.
I think that really is the official contract. Perhaps they took it
down since I printed it out?

Martha Brummett

unread,
Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
"Shaun McKinster" <SHA...@email.msn.com> wrote, among other things:

>No offense, We're telling them we don't want our free creativity under their
>financial control.

Right on! And I've got a Teabag COb in process, which I will be ready
to send to the Boston Harbor website when it's finished.

Martha Brummett

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:25:58 +0200, klaas <el...@owl-online.de> wrote:

>We loved the game for such a long time, because independent people made
>great cobs and utilities! And these independent people created the
>creatures community! They worked for the continuing success of the game.
>Otherwise we wouldn't have played creatures more than some weeks, I
>guess.
>If many of them will not agree with your contracts (and I wouldn't, if I
>were a Cob-developer), I'll not very interested in C2 because it will be

>a game as many others. And I'm thinking about closing my german


>Creatures Web Site, when no longer a lot of cobs and utilities will be
>offered from independent creatures fans.

Teabag Award will be coming to you! :-)

Rocketgrl

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
Lisa de Araujo <lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> saidith :

>Just for the record, we're not big, we're 40 people in one big room!
>(plus Steve in a room somewhere else). :-)


LOL! I can picture the Cyberlife employees working in someone's
garage somewhere...<bg>

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Ping

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to

eric leif wrote in message ...


>
>Thats where I get stuck. These tools or documentation have no value in my
>mind. Personally, I make stuff for Creatures because the information was
>freely available and I could. If other people benefit by them its even
>better.
>


I agree with you (for once). I only ever made stuff for C1 because it was
avalible to anyone who wanted it, and anyone who didn`t want it didn`t have
to Download it. But now, if people will be Making COBs and Cyberlife will
be selling them in packs, where`s the fun any more? I remember about a year
ago,
people would come here and say "I`d like this kind of COB", it would be
made. Someone requested a World Sign once, and Slink put one together very
quickly. Now, when COBs are being sold like this, then it`s just not fun
any more :( and I for one wouldn`t pay to get the Edible Das.cob....


-Pingypo.....Pingy Sp....Just Ping.
__
ICQ: 6283750
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Ping`s Creatures
_
http://www.albia.demon.co.uk/creatures/
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Oh yah, and I joined this too.
http://members.xoom.com/Mannkind/wolfpack.htm
.
anti-trolls/AOL`ers ect. ect. ect.
-
"STEALING!! how could you. Haven`t you learned anything from
that guy who gives those sermons in church? captain what`s-his-name? We live
in a Society of Laws. Why do you think I took you to all those
Police Academy Movies? FOR FUN!! well I didn`t see anyone else
laughing, DID YOU!! except at that guy who made the sounds...
weeeew...honk honk...mmmvvv...mvvvv.....KABOOOOM!! now, where
was I? oh yah...STAY OUTTA' MY BOOZE!!"
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And WHY are you looking down here? the Sig is up there.


T'cephanie Liano'tulon

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
>No offense, Were telling them we dont want our free creativity under
their
>financial control.

All I'm saying is that if you feel that way, then do not sign up for it.

-Moonsinger


Shaun McKinster

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to

Lisa de Araujo wrote in message ...

>
>> No offense, Were telling them we dont want our free creativity under
>> their
>> financial control.
>>
>No problem. As someone said (who was it? Eric?), we should have
>contacted those 20 people personally who we wanted to join. That's
>probably quite true. But we're not a big company and sometimes we have
>to learn our lessons the hard way.
>
>You guys do so much to drive what we do and how we do business, I think
>you don't realise how valuable you are to us. So please don't flame us,
>just tell us what it is you want and we'll try to give it to you. We're
>not forcing anyone to do anything...
>

About personal contact: I beleive I said that too somewhere.
Perhaps some of us are responding in frustration. 9 months is a long time to
wait for a "promised" SDK; only to be confronted with a contractual
agreement. I look forward to any utilities with good documentation that
Cyberlife is willing to put in the "creatures mall".

slink

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:16:13 GMT, T'cephanie Liano'tulon
<storm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>No offense, Were telling them we dont want our free creativity under
>their
>>financial control.
>

>All I'm saying is that if you feel that way, then do not sign up for it.
>
>-Moonsinger

And we're just trying to warn people who might not be able to plow
through 7 pages of legal terms that the contract is not as benign as
has been presented elsewhere.

Read it through and ask help from someone more knowledgable than you
where you don't understand the terms, but *don't* ask the company who
hired the lawyers who wrote it. Judges and lawyers will be the ones
who enforce the clauses therin, not webmasters and clerks.

Jcarrcwalk

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
I think that not too much will change because creatures people who already know
how to develop cobs will keep it the same way because they don't need all the
documentation to make C1 and C2 cobs. Creatures developers have an increadible
amount of injenuity, as proof, look at Terra Nornia, and I have seen most of
the C2 macro changes and it doesn't look that much harder, although it already
takes me FOREVER to develop a cob. In general, I think that people who don't
know how to make cobs will be able to create some, which will mean there will
be just as many free ones in C1 as there are in C2, and there will be
additional cobs that you can pay for. All this means more total cobs, just as
much as C1 for those who like freebees, and even more for people who will pay.

Andrew

slink

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:31:00 -0400, "Shaun McKinster"
<SHA...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>agreement. I look forward to any utilities with good documentation that
>Cyberlife is willing to put in the "creatures mall".
>

Good Documentation = for example

Something about brain lobes other than "here's what the edit screen
looks like for brain lobes".

Something about STM# other than "Stimulus# is a value from 0 to
NUMSTIMULI-1, and refers to one of the built-in stimuli in the
stimulus library". Mind you I did figure this out without the C++
header files, but vast numbers of users either haven't been able to
read my mind or have been driven too insane by doing do to be able to
continue posting.

T'cephanie Liano'tulon

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
> And we're just trying to warn people who might not be able to plow
> through 7 pages of legal terms that the contract is not as benign as
> has been presented elsewhere.
>
> Read it through and ask help from someone more knowledgable than you
> where you don't understand the terms, but *don't* ask the company who
> hired the lawyers who wrote it. Judges and lawyers will be the ones
> who enforce the clauses therin, not webmasters and clerks.
>

And that's a great idea. I'm not objecting to that. I'm objecting to the few
people who seem to think that Cyberlife is a big bad company because they're
trying to offer something to everyone. 1) Tested COBs for those that want. 2)
Free software, and a distributor for those that want. 3) And developmental
software at a price for those that want.

-Moonsinger


Alan Oursland

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Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to
This whole discussion seems to be very "uncomfortable" to me. And it
is a familiar "uncomfortableness" that seems to come around anytime
intentions are put into words.

For example, the president of our company (which is about 20 people)
was working on the employee manual. He thinks that you should
occasionally be able to come in at noon (maybe you were up late and
just wanted to sleep in) without getting in trouble (whatever that
means). How do you put this into words? What is occasionally? Once a
month? What if you don't use that priviledge that month? Does it
accure? If not, people might feel it is their 'right' to come in late
once a month and make a point of doing it even though they don't
really need to. The whole thing spins into this ugly feeling conflict
between the company and the employee when the whole idea was that you
could come in late occasionally.

I think this is what is happening here. For a moment, please forget
any fears of evil actions on Cyberlife's part. Imagine that Cyberlife
just wants to support the developer community and allow some of their
loyal customers to make some money if they wish. Imagine that their
intentions are completely pure an honorable (as I'm sure they are).
Now throw a laywer in the picture. He needs to set up the agreement to
protect the company from the type of person who would misconstrue
"occasionally" to mean every other day. The result is the feeling that
Cyberlife is out to get anyone who signs the contract (I think this is
why so many people hate lawyers). Cyberlife then gets attacked by
people who feel threatened and they don't understand it because they
were just trying to do something nice for the Creatures community.
What happens next is Cyberlife decides that being nice just isn't
worth the trouble and they stop the development program, customers
don't get anything new and Cyberlife gets less customer loyalty and
everybody suffers.

I know it can be hard to see this if you haven't had much experience
with this sort of thing, but please try to keep an open mind.

If you don't like the contract, don't sign it.

If you want to join the network, but don't like the contract, write a
new one (you'll have to hire a lawyer) -- or at least tell Cyberlife
your concerns in a professional manner. I'm sure you can work
something out.

Alan

Shaun McKinster

unread,
Aug 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/20/98
to

slink wrote in message <35e15f58...@news.netins.net>...

>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:31:00 -0400, "Shaun McKinster"
><SHA...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>agreement. I look forward to any utilities with good documentation that
>>Cyberlife is willing to put in the "creatures mall".
>>
>
>Good Documentation = for example
>
>Something about brain lobes other than "here's what the edit screen
>looks like for brain lobes".
>
>Something about STM# other than "Stimulus# is a value from 0 to
>NUMSTIMULI-1, and refers to one of the built-in stimuli in the
>stimulus library". Mind you I did figure this out without the C++
>header files, but vast numbers of users either haven't been able to
>read my mind or have been driven too insane by doing do to be able to
>continue posting.
>--
>Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/


I beleive I was insane long before botching the stimulus lobe
investigation<kick self/mental curse/pull hair> with general lobe
information. I beleive I went while trying to figure out the lift call
buttons<shout there goes another norn off the screen-bye-export>.
shaun

mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk

unread,
Aug 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/21/98
to
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:07:00 GMT, dream...@cix.compulink.co.uk
("Matthew Collier") wrote:

>And here's what Lisa de Araujo sez, with a mouth full of PEZ!
>> How much would you pay for an excellent COB?
>

>ok, how much would we pay for one decent cob,

I wouldn't buy a COB, actually. I liked the ones that came with
the Lifekit, but got the kit primarily for the Ron and Forest sprites.
I like the idea of people creating COBs for each other for free.
It's part of the whole attraction of the game for me, coz there's
so much room to see what amazing and funny things other folks
will come up with next. Like Southpark COBs, etc. Personally, I
would be sad to see a lot of cobblers join the CDN. There may
be some advantages in doing that, but IMO it will take some of
that spontaneity out of the community. :^(

What happened to the COB writers Guild that was mentioned
here some months ago? And anyway, if people really wanted
their COBs vetted, I'm sure that could take place quite naturally
on the NG. If a COB is defective, people usually point that out
here fairly quickly, and sometimes with advice for a fix.


Mae Tang
(replace "nospam" with "nu-it" for a valid e-mail address)

RudeDog

unread,
Aug 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/21/98
to
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk wrote in message
<35dc7552...@news.demon.co.uk>...

>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:07:00 GMT, dream...@cix.compulink.co.uk
>("Matthew Collier") wrote:
[snip]

>What happened to the COB writers Guild that was mentioned
>here some months ago? And anyway, if people really wanted
>their COBs vetted, I'm sure that could take place quite naturally
>on the NG. If a COB is defective, people usually point that out
>here fairly quickly, and sometimes with advice for a fix.
>


I have been busy for the last month. So the CMG has been on hold. But now I
have some free time.

I have moved the site from Geocites to Xoom. (didn't like what Geocites
was doing)
http://members.xoom.com/Rude_Dog/
It's just a skeleton right now. I really want this site to be for and by
cob makers so, If you have any info or help please send it my way.

CMG members assemble! Membership is available to any intrested party. New
or have been cobbing for awhile, all are welcome!

I am also looking for Co-webmasters to help work on the CMG web site.

If you are or want to be a CMG member, please e-mail me: sgameon at ycsi dot
net (replace at with @ and dot with . ) [gotta stop the spam-bots ya know!]

RudeDog
--
The Island of Dr RudeDog
http://www.ycsi.net/users/sgameon/
Take a walk on the wild side!
+
All hail Slink and Lis,
the two hands of Terra Nornia!
+
I am here to comfort the afflicted, and
to Afflict the comfortable! :mwa ha ha:
+
Viva L'Amiga!

Madame Mim

unread,
Aug 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/22/98
to
It is illegal to make a contract difficult to understand or hide the truth and
bad lawyers ethics to make it complicated. Major moves have been made to make
contracts understandable by everybody and the Cybrerlife contract is a quite
good representation of this trend. If you can find one 'where-as' or
'aforementioned' in there you can have any dollies that may come with my C2.

Shaun McKinster wrote:

> About the online contract.
> Its only a contract summary, the actual contract is mailed which probable
> has all that tiny print that if magnified will put you to sleep after 2
> lines. Thats were the contracted party gets ******.
> Cyberlife has spent 9 months perfecting the legal language (first SDK
> announcement). Im sure the printed page will reflect it.

--
The truth is out there - but the lies are in your head.

Sex is great - but I prefer the real thing.

Quisquarles Meglyn Alpha Plieadese-Pimor
aka Madame Mim
aka Sarax (trader on SB Omega)
aka Megan <meg...@kern.com>
http://members.tripod.com/~MadameMim

Chris Wylie

unread,
Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to
Nicely put. :)

From my own personal viewpoint, it is important for a technology company
to have access to trusted and experienced beta testers. Beta testing can
provide development tools and access to publishing markets, but might
also include beta testing of new Creatures products in the future (but
remember, this is my own personal thought, not the policy of CyberLife
;) ). It is essential, however, to reduce the risks involved with just
such an endeavour, and hence the requirement for a contract.

Chris Wylie
Development Manager
Creatures Lab
CyberLife Technology Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: naou...@iftech.com (Alan Oursland) [mailto:naou...@iftech.com]
Posted At: 20 August 1998 19:16
Posted To: creatures
Conversation: Creatures Development Network, contracts and CyberLife
Subject: Re: Creatures Development Network, contracts and CyberLife

John Glover

unread,
Aug 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/30/98
to
The message <A41EFAA0620AD111B2B700805F0D182F5211BE@cyberserver>
from Lisa de Araujo <lisa.d...@cyberlife.co.uk> contains these words:


> Hi again, guys.

> We do listen to you and care very much what you think about CyberLife
> and CyberLife products, and to that end, we've put together a FAQ that
> should answer most of your questions about the Creatures Development
> Network.

> As for the commercial aspects of CyberLife and Creatures, we want to let
> you know why we are doing what we are doing. We get thousands of
> requests from Creatures users to provide more and better COBs that they
> can *trust*. We get requests to check and monitor 3rd party websites.

Somewhere in thae aggrement it mentions that 'The developer' has to
produce a satisfactory amount of work. How much and of what Quality
would that have to be?

jasp,
--
I want C2, Norn: Norn push phone Guy:Err?
I've got book, Phone: Dring, Dring click. Norn:Errer
I want genetics kit, Guy: Er hello? Guy:*&&^*
Direct-x WORKS!!!!!!!!!! Norn:bibble! Norn:Fuginel

Quote:Umm!


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