The REAL AL Program [Semi-OT] {Ant's suggested program}
Jasp
Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
this comunity may seem bleak.
Fortunately Ant has come to the rescue (see 'Another Important
Message') and has suggested something that should have been obvious
all along. As a result what follows isn't my idea but Ant's and input
from other community members.
What has been suggested is a product compiled by THIS community,
allready many people have offered their help,and the ingenuity shown
by many community members, in cobs and 3RD party Creatures, shows it's
possible. The product would be designed in such a way that it is
easily updateable by a third party, and all code will be freely
available. A developers network will be set up which sould be
non-intimidating and open to all. The aim is to produce the product we
want and will be the vision of all.
Now I'll get to the purpouse of this thread, as I have now outlined
the basics of the project provided by others. Firstly I would like to
offer my support in anyway I can. (I could learn a simple programing
language [Such as CAOS] or provide graphics) I would also like to
offer suggestions.
1. I feel the program should have a graphical illustration. Though
this makes it seem gamelike I feel it is needed. It helps the user
relate to what's going on and also builds an interesting bond with the
'lifeforms'
2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
This will enable easier developer interaction.
3. Object driven script if good as it alows easy expansion of the
environment, though scripts can be limiting. Some form of environement
evolution would be Good though it would realy mean a 3D environment.
4. Ecology should be obserbved, though all lifeforms should be
involved.
5. Anything alive should contain basic genetics, though a few central
lifeforms would alow a greater study of evolution.
6. Ok another thing riped from creatures but the software is still
relevant and I feel it still has MANY merrits. Separate rooms, It
could alow things to evolve on a tangent and make for interesting
experiments. Such's as a hot dry dome and a cold wet one would cause
different evolutionary traits.
7. EVERYTHING can be monitored. Pants (opps, I meant Plants), animals,
insects) Evolution isn't about one thing.
8. Weather. It's needed for point 6.
9. Disease. Obvious, yet should also be mutateable.
10. More realistic DNA. DNA couldn't cause iron to combine with oxygen
to form copper. (Not without killing everything within a 10 mile
radius anyway <g>) So why does it in Creatures.
11. The contact of ex. members who may be interested, eg. Slink. (I
can get Brad on alt.games.riven, I havn't seen him here)
12. Easy to larn code. Such as CAOS. It should also be able to be used
for external apps for non-programers such as myself, then I (I mean
others) could make my (I mean our) own tools.
DO NOT INCLUDE
1. Any thing like pickups
2. Stupid processor hungry animations.
3. Ridiculous deathtraps. (Some are needed, but with warning to the
organism)
4. Evil Bananas
Obviously these are only suggestions, and many have obvious and mabey
stronger arguments against them. This progect shouldn't be abandond
and I feel it would be funny if it attracted military interest. Then
we could proudly remain ourselves comp.alife.ants_cool_idea (Note the
comp.alife instead of alt.games)
Seriously though this program should be as fun as C1, have the
stability of a computer when turned off, and have all the scientific
info and upgradability to make an intresting, entertaining,
educational product. Basicaly what we would have expected from C2.
Jasp,
--
You are welcome to visit
http://members.netscapeonline.co.uk/jaspglover/
anytime, but unfortunately there is so much there I
can barely cover it in this space. All I'll say is
that it has stuff on RCT, C1, C2, C3, CC, DK2,Worms
Armeggedon, as well as a few freeware games.
Random quote now follows:-
"If you computer had trouble switching to the millenium, just think of the problems computers would have ad switching from BC t
Theo Spears
> Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
> Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
> this comunity may seem bleak.
>
here, but other people would
> possible. The product would be designed in such a way that it is
> easily updateable by a third party, and all code will be freely
> available.
Under GNU?
> A developers network will be set up which sould be
> non-intimidating and open to all. The aim is to produce the product we
> want and will be the vision of all.
>
so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people who
like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network that was
non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world under all
>
> 1. I feel the program should have a graphical illustration. Though
> this makes it seem gamelike I feel it is needed. It helps the user
> relate to what's going on and also builds an interesting bond with the
> 'lifeforms'
i think graphics is needed, otherwise it's kinda hard to tell what is going
on. But if i analyse correctly, this is a techy product so 'forming bonds'
will not be high on most user's agendas
> 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
> This will enable easier developer interaction.
>
how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support genetics
> 3. Object driven script if good as it alows easy expansion of the
> environment, though scripts can be limiting. Some form of environement
> evolution would be Good though it would realy mean a 3D environment.
surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough) and
the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
> 4. Ecology should be obserbved, though all lifeforms should be
> involved.
again, this would be irrelavant to the engine
> 5. Anything alive should contain basic genetics, though a few central
> lifeforms would alow a greater study of evolution.
this might have performance penalties, but genetics could be done as scripts
with mutating variables
> 6. Ok another thing riped from creatures but the software is still
> relevant and I feel it still has MANY merrits. Separate rooms, It
> could alow things to evolve on a tangent and make for interesting
> experiments. Such's as a hot dry dome and a cold wet one would cause
> different evolutionary traits.
why stop at rooms, why not model a whole air flow system, and have each
point's temp etc calculated from that?
>
> 7. EVERYTHING can be monitored. Pants (opps, I meant Plants), animals,
> insects) Evolution isn't about one thing.
again, i would say this is irrelavant to the engine, this would be done
through scripts
> 8. Weather. It's needed for point 6.
>
again, i would say irrelavant to the engine
> 9. Disease. Obvious, yet should also be mutateable.
again, irrelavant to the engine
> 10. More realistic DNA. DNA couldn't cause iron to combine with oxygen
> to form copper. (Not without killing everything within a 10 mile
> radius anyway <g>) So why does it in Creatures.
true chem reactions then? fair enough
> 12. Easy to larn code. Such as CAOS. It should also be able to be used
> for external apps for non-programers such as myself, then I (I mean
> others) could make my (I mean our) own tools.
i'm in favour of an ASM language, with compilers that can generate it.
> 1. Any thing like pickups
totally irrelavant to the engine
> 2. Stupid processor hungry animations.
animations are a good way of getting info across, they also add to the
interactivity, if animation is not added people will hack it by doing an
evuivelant of:
pose 0
wait 1
pose 1
wait 1
pose 2
etc. besides, animations are only processor hungry when graphics are turned
on
> 3. Ridiculous deathtraps. (Some are needed, but with warning to the
> organism)
irrelavant ot the engine
> 4. Evil Bananas
???
Note,I don't think the ideas i labeled as irrelavant to the engine are
useless, i just think the engine should not be desgined with them as a built
in feature, flexability is the key to any system.
btw, anyone heard of uniword? :)
Theo Spears
A Cynic
Ping
Jasp <jaspg...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3887706c...@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk...
> Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
> Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
> this comunity may seem bleak.
>
That's a good idea.
But impossible.
How would a small community fund, compile and market a game like that?
Heck, I know those guys who made treadmarks started off in ~sort~ of the
same manner, but 'tis pretty foolish to think it would be possible - because
it sounds like it's a bit *too* advanced for an independant group of
developers to build. Something simpler on the other hand. . . .
¤ Ping
¤ http://www.creatureslife.net
¤ http://news-finger.creatureslife.net
¤ nospam = albia when e-mailing
¤ http://skizzers.org/ping/
¤ http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=HSK007
"do you find this acceptable, madam?. . . of course not. . . . .customers
come with clothes, and chops come with gravy. I think I've made my point"
RedWordSmith
>
> Jasp <jaspg...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3887706c...@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk...
> > Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
> > Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
> > this comunity may seem bleak.
> >
> > Fortunately Ant has come to the rescue (see 'Another Important
> <snip>
>
> That's a good idea.
> But impossible.
Nothing is impossible.
> How would a small community fund,
What are the costs? How much? Can they be deferred?
> compile
Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large engine
could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming capacity
tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to actually
coordinating the different parts? (In which case I find your lack of
faith disturbing)
> and market a game like that?
How much marketting would we need to reach 90% of the active Creatures
members on the internet? Beyond them? Beyond online computer users?
What types? I don't think it's impossible at all. We need to start out
at the bottem of the mountain. We shouldn't forget that our goal is to
reach the top.
> Heck, I know those guys who made treadmarks started off in ~sort~ of the
> same manner, but 'tis pretty foolish to think it would be possible - because
> it sounds like it's a bit *too* advanced for an independant group of
> developers to build. Something simpler on the other hand. . . .
How simple Ping? And can it be made more complex?
> ¤ Ping
> ¤ http://www.creatureslife.net
--
Nic's prayer of the week --
"Send me an angel to love.
I need to feel a little piece of heaven.
Send me an angel to love.
I'm afraid I'll never get to heaven."
-_My Lover's Box_, Garbage.
This .sig brought to you by Nic "RedWord"Smith, proprietor of the
Temple of Nic at http://nic.dreamhost.com/
RedWordSmith
> Under GNU?
Can we please do something else? Anything else? That preamble is...
long. (not that legalalities are ever really fun, but...)
> so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people who
> like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network that was
> non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world under all
All who can tie their shoelaces or get Lis Morris to do it for them.
Happy now?
> i think graphics is needed, otherwise it's kinda hard to tell what is going
> on. But if i analyse correctly, this is a techy product so 'forming bonds'
> will not be high on most user's agendas
I don't see it as a "techy" product by any means. I think it IS
possible to create a game that appeals to both the hard-line ecologist,
biologists, and computerologists, and is also educational and fun to
play.
> > 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
> > This will enable easier developer interaction.
> >
> how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support genetics
How about a tile-based 2D world, so it takes up less disk space?
> surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
> powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough) and
> the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
You would know better than I. Depends on how it's handled.
> > 4. Ecology should be obserbved, though all lifeforms should be
> > involved.
>
> again, this would be irrelavant to the engine
I agree 100% there.
> true chem reactions then? fair enough
>
> > 12. Easy to larn code. Such as CAOS. It should also be able to be used
> > for external apps for non-programers such as myself, then I (I mean
> > others) could make my (I mean our) own tools.
>
> i'm in favour of an ASM language, with compilers that can generate it.
Er...
> Note,I don't think the ideas i labeled as irrelavant to the engine are
> useless, i just think the engine should not be desgined with them as a built
> in feature, flexability is the key to any system.
>
> btw, anyone heard of uniword? :)
UniWorld? Else, no.
> Theo Spears
> A Cynic
Really? I'm a skeptic. Do you exist?
invisible girl
>The aim is to produce the product we
>want and will be the vision of all.
Er, agc? Unified vision? In all seriousness, I don't think you could create
something that would satisfy more than a third of the community - unless the
end product was highly customizable by the user.
>DO NOT INCLUDE
[snip]
>4. Evil Bananas
Mmmph! I hereby withhold my glorious beta-testing skills until the Evil
Bananas are reintroduced.
Elizabeth
Stop the Slaughter! Save the Pirhanas!
"Sorry I'm late. I was hatching an egg."
John Ievins
Ping <Pi...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:948487542.18935.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> Jasp <jaspg...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3887706c...@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk...
> > Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
> > Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
> > this comunity may seem bleak.
> >
> > Fortunately Ant has come to the rescue (see 'Another Important
> <snip>
>
> That's a good idea.
> But impossible.
> Heck, I know those guys who made treadmarks started off in ~sort~ of the
> same manner, but 'tis pretty foolish to think it would be possible -
because
> it sounds like it's a bit *too* advanced for an independant group of
> developers to build. Something simpler on the other hand. . . .
Yup, it's a bit complicated. I reckon the best way to simplify it is to
keep it all done via one language - it would be too hard to create a whole
new scripting language. How about using DLL's called by the engine instead
of COB's?
Also, the idea of a Quake like engine using genetics - good, but people
would have to buy Quake to play the game... I'm not saying 'crappy idea',
I'm saying that it might be better without. However, if a Quake a like
engine were used - I might be able to get a few people from 2048 Millenium
Productions to help out, although War Sector X would be given priority
(that's why most of the people joined)... although I suspect that the coders
would like the challenge in the genetics... if we finish building up the
team, and the HL engine is decided on, I have no problems with using people
to create <whatever it will be called>.
--
John F. Ievins (aka The Grendel)
Philosopher of Banana Religion & Rights
Project Leader, Team Leader & Mapper of 2048 Millenium Productions' 'War
Sector X' Half Life Mod, available from Http://www.millenium2048.co.uk
Creator of genetically engineered 'Norns' and 'Grendels', for the
'Creatures' series of games, available from
Http://www.geocities.com/SilciconValley/Foothills/6184/
Creator of Creatures 3 COB's ranged between 24001 and 24050
Talker of gibberish
---
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943
"We started off like Romeo and Juliet, but ended in tragedy"
Millhouse (character on 'The Simpsons')
Theo Spears
> Yup, it's a bit complicated. I reckon the best way to simplify it is to
> keep it all done via one language - it would be too hard to create a whole
> new scripting language. How about using DLL's called by the engine
instead
> of COB's?
i know someone who has.... an asm thingie of course, under the gpl, but not
available to the public i think, if that makes sense
> Also, the idea of a Quake like engine using genetics - good, but people
> would have to buy Quake to play the game...
i'm pretty sure there are freeware quake-like engines about,
quake.sourceforge.net springs to mind, take that source, extend it and alot
of the work is already done
interestingly enough, my server hasn't displayed the message i sent you
replyed to yet, the other news server i have has, but my primary hasn't....
I still don't think this project will ever get off the ground, and i'm too
busy to push it on.....
Theo Spears
Miranda
(Jasp) wrote:
>Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
>Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
>this comunity may seem bleak.
>
>Fortunately Ant has come to the rescue (see 'Another Important
>Message') and has suggested something that should have been obvious
>all along. As a result what follows isn't my idea but Ant's and input
>from other community members.
>
I'd really like to be involved in this, I don't have much talent that
I could add.. but prehaps I could beta test?
<biiig snip>
>
>DO NOT INCLUDE
>
>4. Evil Bananas
>
<raises an eyebrow> Dare I ask why not? An AL game that revolves
around a bunch of evil bananas could prove to be very interesting,
indeed.
>Jasp,
>
-Mirany
-Ph33r the evil sheep.
RedWordSmith
> Agreed, we should call the game "Bananas". We can form a company
> called CyberFruit which we'll later change to BananaLabs.. Then we can
> name the sequal "Bananas2", "Bananas3" and later on "Bananas3D"
>
> <giggle> I'm in a strange mood right now. Well, I'm always in a
> strange mood, but that's besides the point..
You know, as strange as it sounds, I believe we SHOULD use bananas.
Why? Well, we can't do the "Norn - Fuzzy" thing, and anything else
would be disinteresting, so why not? It's certainly an attention
grabber, and not too hard to draw or render..
chani3
"Miranda" <nos...@my.inbox> wrote in message
news:388a40e4...@news.mnsi.net...
i demand that evil bananas be included!!!
8*)
Miranda
>> >DO NOT INCLUDE
>> >
>> >4. Evil Bananas
>
>i demand that evil bananas be included!!!
>8*)
>
Agreed, we should call the game "Bananas". We can form a company
called CyberFruit which we'll later change to BananaLabs.. Then we can
name the sequal "Bananas2", "Bananas3" and later on "Bananas3D"
We can also make "Banana Adventures" and "Banana playground" for the
younger crowd..
Also third party developers can make things called "BOBs" Banana
OBjects, you see..
<giggle> I'm in a strange mood right now. Well, I'm always in a
strange mood, but that's besides the point..
-Mirany
-Ph33r the evil sheep.
xOtix
<20000122004430...@ng-fc1.aol.com> on Fri 21 Jan 2000
09:44:30p, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and
with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>Jasp writes:
>
>>The aim is to produce the product we
>>want and will be the vision of all.
>
>Er, agc? Unified vision? In all seriousness, I don't think you could
>create something that would satisfy more than a third of the community -
>unless the end product was highly customizable by the user.
>
>>DO NOT INCLUDE
>[snip]
>>4. Evil Bananas
>
>Mmmph! I hereby withhold my glorious beta-testing skills until the Evil
>Bananas are reintroduced.
I must stand by Elizabeth on this issue...
::walks over and stands beside Elizabeth::
--
xOtix
Creatures Community Advocate
Sprite Artist, Fine Artist, Graphic Artist, Animation Artist
C2 and C3 Species Range reserved: 17000 - 17049.
xOtix's [C2] COBs: Fruit Basket COB, Toy-B-Gone spray.
Host to Carolyn Horn's "Slink's Specials"
http://www.jannart.on.ca
AGC FAQs Archivist/Creator of xOtix's "Jus' Gimme All Th' FAQs"
<< C1,C2,C3,CA,& AGC >> [in process]
http://www.jannart.on.ca/allcfaqs.htm
<x0tix*AT*my-dejanews.com>
Theo Spears
and by the way, you can get the quake source code free
Theo Spears
Kylie
RedWordSmith wrote:
> > > 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
> > > This will enable easier developer interaction.
> > >
> > how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support genetics
>
> How about a tile-based 2D world, so it takes up less disk space?
Oh yes. Less disk space is a must.
Kylie
--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Owner of 8 AGC Cheese point
Assitant Keeper of the Cheese Points (Do not eat them!!)
Official Do-nothing of the Creatures Community
President of the League of Anti-Evil Car Armada (LEACA)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
It's Satellite-be-gone!
We are the Proud! The Brave! The Free! The Strange!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
>I certinley do *not* lick Ping.
i have a confession to make.. ;)- Myself & jimbo
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Miranda
wrote:
>
>B1, B2, B3, B3D, BA, BP, BO.. hmmm.. ::counts:: one too many there I
>think..
>
B1.. B2! Bananas.. in Pyjamas.. are coming down the stairs! Bananas..
in Pyjamas.. are coming down in pairs.. Bananas.. in Pyjamas are
chasing teddy bears! Cause on tuesdays they all like to catch 'em
unawares! <giggle> Sleep, I do need.
>And Gordnorn and Rhodent could Make BobBob and BobTweak (oh, wait...)o.0
>
LOL!
>Yup! Great idea, Mirany!
>
Ooh.. the world must be going to end 'n stuff
>--
> xOtix
BTW, you do know you're sending 1000 lines of alphabet soup with all
your messages? <g>
xOtix
2000 04:17:22p, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and
with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>>B1, B2, B3, B3D, BA, BP, BO.. hmmm.. ::counts:: one too many there I
>>think..
>>
>B1.. B2! Bananas.. in Pyjamas.. are coming down the stairs! Bananas..
>in Pyjamas.. are coming down in pairs.. Bananas.. in Pyjamas are
>chasing teddy bears! Cause on tuesdays they all like to catch 'em
>unawares! <giggle> Sleep, I do need.
Did you just make that up?? If so don't bother sleeping just keep writing,
'K? =`)
>>And Gordnorn and Rhodent could Make BobBob and BobTweak (oh, wait...)o.0
>>
>LOL!
>
>>Yup! Great idea, Mirany!
>>
>Ooh.. the world must be going to end 'n stuff
Nay doot! ;`)
>>--
>> xOtix
>
>BTW, you do know you're sending 1000 lines of alphabet soup with all
>your messages? <g>
Lordy! So Pings "!!!!1111!1!!1!!11"s told me. <*thwap*> St00pid
newsreader! See "I'm appalled", etc. thread..
Toki
> >B1.. B2! Bananas.. in Pyjamas.. are coming down the stairs! Bananas..
> >in Pyjamas.. are coming down in pairs.. Bananas.. in Pyjamas are
> >chasing teddy bears! Cause on tuesdays they all like to catch 'em
> >unawares! <giggle> Sleep, I do need.
>
> Did you just make that up?? If so don't bother sleeping just keep writing,
> 'K? =`)
what ? x0tix, are you trying to tell us that you haven't heard of bananas in
pyjamas? ::feigned shock::
("a man who's not heard, of a jellicle cat!" hmms, looks like i need sleep
too...)
oh, hang on, where do you live? i think the bananas have spread to america,
but im not sure about england....then again it is aimed at very small
children... ok i'll stop rambling now... :)
> >BTW, you do know you're sending 1000 lines of alphabet soup with all
> >your messages? <g>
>
> Lordy! So Pings "!!!!1111!1!!1!!11"s told me. <*thwap*> St00pid
> newsreader! See "I'm appalled", etc. thread..
>
> --
> xOtix
i appreciated the pretty picture, anyway. it was very.... obscure . :)
Toki
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Everything is everything
What is meant to be will be
After Winter must come Spring
Change comes eventually
~Lauryn Hill
Everything is everything
SnornL : "I went in my pants... i mean, in the water! *In the water*!!!"
Toki "this guys eyes are too far apart...i mean wide open"
SnornL "hmmmer .. did you say 4 o'clock?"
Capricorns Unite!
S+00p;d35+ thing i've heard lately award goes to...
Ping : UNSUBSCRIBE!11!
Leonard : Unsubscribe to what?
Ping : My aunt steve's flower arranging magazine, you plank!!11
Nyeh! die die. . .
Leonard : Your aunts flower arranging magazine? I'm not even interested in
flower
arranging!
Miranda
wrote:
>>>B1, B2, B3, B3D, BA, BP, BO.. hmmm.. ::counts:: one too many there I
>>>think..
>>>
<banana and pyjama theme song>
>
>Did you just make that up?? If so don't bother sleeping just keep writing,
>'K? =`)
Heck no.. it's from this book my cousin had as a child and was later
pased on to me and my brother.. it's also a TV show from Australia..
it's on YTV and TVO, methinks..
>--
> xOtix
Kylie
xOtix wrote:
> nos...@my.inbox (Miranda) <388b9593...@news.mnsi.net> on Sun 23 Jan
> 2000 04:17:22p, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and
> with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
> >>B1, B2, B3, B3D, BA, BP, BO.. hmmm.. ::counts:: one too many there I
> >>think..
> >>
> >B1.. B2! Bananas.. in Pyjamas.. are coming down the stairs! Bananas..
> >in Pyjamas.. are coming down in pairs.. Bananas.. in Pyjamas are
> >chasing teddy bears! Cause on tuesdays they all like to catch 'em
> >unawares! <giggle> Sleep, I do need.
>
> Did you just make that up?? If so don't bother sleeping just keep writing,
> 'K? =`)
No.. it's real.. and quite scary too... 0.o
Kylie
--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Owner of 8 AGC Cheese point
Assitant Keeper of the Cheese Points
President of the League of Anti-Evil Car Armada
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
It's Satellite-be-gone!
We are the Proud! The Brave! The Free! The Strange!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
xOtix
Sun 23 Jan 2000 10:07:23p, strode proudly front and centre in
alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>
>
>> >B1.. B2! Bananas.. in Pyjamas.. are coming down the stairs! Bananas..
>> >in Pyjamas.. are coming down in pairs.. Bananas.. in Pyjamas are
>> >chasing teddy bears! Cause on tuesdays they all like to catch 'em
>> >unawares! <giggle> Sleep, I do need.
>>
>> Did you just make that up?? If so don't bother sleeping just keep
>> writing, 'K? =`)
>
>
>what ? x0tix, are you trying to tell us that you haven't heard of
>bananas in pyjamas? ::feigned shock::
>("a man who's not heard, of a jellicle cat!" hmms, looks like i need
>sleep too...)
>oh, hang on, where do you live? i think the bananas have spread to
>america, but im not sure about england....then again it is aimed at very
>small children... ok i'll stop rambling now... :)
I'm in Canada.
I love childrens books and nonsense rhymes! But sadly, my daughter is now
21 and busy building a music career, so there won't be any grandchildren
for a while yet, maybe never. So it's been a while since we read childrens
books together... ;`)
That bananas in pyjamas one is a particularly good one, though. Can you
give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it. :`)
>> --
>> xOtix
>
>i appreciated the pretty picture, anyway. it was very.... obscure . :)
>
It was a joke. I had made it as an abstract from that bit of ascii (non)
art that John Ievins sent me for my birthday...
chani3
"xOtix" <x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid> wrote in message
news:8EC5BE901f53...@207.126.101.100...
> tokimel...@optusnet.com.au (Toki) <86gpmn$6c6$1...@news1.mpx.com.au> on
> Sun 23 Jan 2000 10:07:23p, strode proudly front and centre in
> alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>
> >
> >
> >> >B1.. B2! Bananas.. in Pyjamas.. are coming down the stairs! Bananas..
> >> >in Pyjamas.. are coming down in pairs.. Bananas.. in Pyjamas are
> >> >chasing teddy bears! Cause on tuesdays they all like to catch 'em
> >> >unawares! <giggle> Sleep, I do need.
> >>
> >> Did you just make that up?? If so don't bother sleeping just keep
> >> writing, 'K? =`)
> >
> >
> >what ? x0tix, are you trying to tell us that you haven't heard of
> >bananas in pyjamas? ::feigned shock::
> >("a man who's not heard, of a jellicle cat!" hmms, looks like i need
> >sleep too...)
> >oh, hang on, where do you live? i think the bananas have spread to
> >america, but im not sure about england....then again it is aimed at very
> >small children... ok i'll stop rambling now... :)
>
> I'm in Canada.
> I love childrens books and nonsense rhymes! But sadly, my daughter is now
> 21 and busy building a music career, so there won't be any grandchildren
> for a while yet, maybe never. So it's been a while since we read
childrens
> books together... ;`)
>
> That bananas in pyjamas one is a particularly good one, though. Can you
> give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it. :`)
>
hrm... i live in canada... and i've heard of the eeevil bananas in
pyjamas.... i even watched it a few times when i was really bored...
::shudders::
xOtix
Mon 24 Jan 2000 05:57:50p, strode proudly front and centre in
>> That bananas in pyjamas one is a particularly good one, though. Can you
>> give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it. :`)
>>
>
>hrm... i live in canada... and i've heard of the eeevil bananas in
>pyjamas.... i even watched it a few times when i was really bored...
>::shudders::
>
Oh, I see. a TV show is it? haven't owned a TV for over thirty years..
::enjoys the shocked expressions:: =`)
It's true.
John Ievins
xOtix <x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid> wrote
> Mon 24 Jan 2000 05:57:50p, strode proudly front and centre in
> alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>
> >> That bananas in pyjamas one is a particularly good one, though. Can you
> >> give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it. :`)
> >>
> >
> >hrm... i live in canada... and i've heard of the eeevil bananas in
> >pyjamas.... i even watched it a few times when i was really bored...
> >::shudders::
> >
>
> Oh, I see. a TV show is it? haven't owned a TV for over thirty years..
No, it isn't actually a TV show. It's a little kids rhyme. Yes, it has
reached the UK. And it's so ooold here that people have to corrupt it for
even 2 year olds to laugh, or enjoy it:
'Banana's in pyjama's are coming down the stairs,
Banana's in pyjama's are eating Teddy Bears'
Oh the hillarity!
> ::enjoys the shocked expressions:: =`)
I'm not shocked. What's TV anyway? A screen with pictures and sounds.
Like a 'puter, only you can't interact.
> It's true.
I believe you.
--
John F. Ievins (aka The Grendel) - John Ievins, with an i, not an L... Grrr!
Philosopher of Banana Religion & Rights
Project Leader, Team Leader & Mapper of 2048 Millenium Productions' 'War
Sector X' Half Life Mod, available from Http://www.millenium2048.co.uk
Creator of genetically engineered 'Norns' and 'Grendels', for the
'Creatures' series of games, available from
Http://www.geocities.com/SilciconValley/Foothills/6184/
Creator of Creatures 3 COB's ranged between 24001 and 24050
Talker of gibberish
Haver of the following Logo on a Half Life skin:
==============
|| |
||
|| ---
|| |
-------------
Graham Cox
<theo....@virgin.IREALYHATEnetSPAMMERS> Gave forth this really
invaluable piece of information:
>so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people who
>like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network that was
>non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world under all
Surely it can be a techy product and still appeal to other people too.
It could be a good simulation as a teaching aid, as well as being very
updateable.
>> 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
>> This will enable easier developer interaction.
>>
>how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support genetics
Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
little gain in this case.
>> 3. Object driven script if good as it alows easy expansion of the
>> environment, though scripts can be limiting. Some form of environement
>> evolution would be Good though it would realy mean a 3D environment.
>
>surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
>powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough) and
>the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
It should involve a powerful scripting language, but not too
complicated a language. CAOS was not powerful enough, but something
like ASM or C would put most people. What it really needs is something
like BASIC but relevent to the program, and powerful enough to be
useful.
>> 5. Anything alive should contain basic genetics, though a few central
>> lifeforms would alow a greater study of evolution.
>
>this might have performance penalties, but genetics could be done as scripts
>with mutating variables
If you do it as scripts it will restrict it a bit. One of the best
things about Creatures is the ability to directly manipulate the
genetics of a creature, and to change them quite a lot. If you simply
have a script with mutating variables then it will restrict it a lot
more than if you have a proper genetic structure built up.
>> 6. Ok another thing riped from creatures but the software is still
>> relevant and I feel it still has MANY merrits. Separate rooms, It
>> could alow things to evolve on a tangent and make for interesting
>> experiments. Such's as a hot dry dome and a cold wet one would cause
>> different evolutionary traits.
>
>why stop at rooms, why not model a whole air flow system, and have each
>point's temp etc calculated from that?
That would be interesting to see, but probably not entirely necessary.
Surely all you would need is some way to determine the temperature at
different points of the room given the average temperature, and not
worry about air flow and things like that. You could say for example
that the right side is hotter than the left, because there is a heat
source there, and then simply have a gradient function over the room
so that you get progressive cooling over the room.
>> 9. Disease. Obvious, yet should also be mutateable.
>
>again, irrelavant to the engine
Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
viruses work.
>> 10. More realistic DNA. DNA couldn't cause iron to combine with oxygen
>> to form copper. (Not without killing everything within a 10 mile
>> radius anyway <g>) So why does it in Creatures.
>
>true chem reactions then? fair enough
Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>> 12. Easy to larn code. Such as CAOS. It should also be able to be used
>> for external apps for non-programers such as myself, then I (I mean
>> others) could make my (I mean our) own tools.
>
>i'm in favour of an ASM language, with compilers that can generate it.
Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
>> 2. Stupid processor hungry animations.
>
>animations are a good way of getting info across, they also add to the
>interactivity, if animation is not added people will hack it.
True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
One thing. All of this is my opinion. If anyone disagrees then simply
say so, and I'll hit you :-)
--
Graham Cox
c...@grahama99.freeserve.co.uk.antispam
Remove antispam, you get the idea
ICQ# 24532124
PGP Public Thingy available upon request, or from keyserver.
If this e-mail address is used in any manner that does not have
my personal authorization then I will be writing to the relavent
authorities with enough complaints to get you in serious trouble.
I Now have a FTP site thingy where you can download
FamilyTree
EggExporter
AutoNamer
C3Link
simply goto http://come.to/creaturesdownload
Most of these programs are for C2 Only. C3 Versions should
follow when I can be bothered to make them.
Owner of script numbers 16,000 - 16049 for both C2 and C3
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS/M/S d- s-:+ a--- C+++ UL P+ L++ E W+ N++ o K-
w++() O- M-- V PS PE Y+ PGP+ t+ 5-- X+ R tv+ b+++
DI- D-- G e->+++ h! r y?
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on
his head!" Terry Pratchett, Maskerade
"Welcome to the real world. It Sucks! You're
gonna love it" Monica from Friends.
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried
"Good god, man, take your finger off the bleedin' shift key and stick it
back up your nose, where someone of your level of intelligence usually
keeps it....", SnornL talking to SlipperyPete
Theo Spears
> Surely it can be a techy product and still appeal to other people too.
> It could be a good simulation as a teaching aid, as well as being very
> updateable.
hmmm... I still hold my opinion
> Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
> were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
> renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
> little gain in this case.
this thread has the word REAL in it's title, I believe 3D is needed for
decent modeling
> If you do it as scripts it will restrict it a bit. One of the best
> things about Creatures is the ability to directly manipulate the
> genetics of a creature, and to change them quite a lot. If you simply
> have a script with mutating variables then it will restrict it a lot
> more than if you have a proper genetic structure built up.
ok, my new slogan for this project: "Make it possible even if it is never
used"
> That would be interesting to see, but probably not entirely necessary.
> Surely all you would need is some way to determine the temperature at
> different points of the room given the average temperature, and not
> worry about air flow and things like that. You could say for example
> that the right side is hotter than the left, because there is a heat
> source there, and then simply have a gradient function over the room
> so that you get progressive cooling over the room.
hmm.... I was actually thinking in terms of this, just having so each poin't
temperature is calculated as a point, not as part of a room
> Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
> could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
> actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
> you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
> the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
> viruses work.
but I think desease should be scripted, which means there just needs to be a
way of agents (sorry) to manipulate creatures body and chemistry
> Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
> this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
> longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
> Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
> should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
> laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
> could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
> Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
assuming that this game would take place in a universe akin to ours
> Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
> similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
> powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
> to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
> with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
> interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
yup, but asm as a core language, that's basicly what CAOS is after all. Then
the game can be set up to autometically convert any number of languages to
asm on the fly
> True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
>
"Make it possible even if it is never used"
> One thing. All of this is my opinion. If anyone disagrees then simply
> say so, and I'll hit you :-)
>
feel free, everyone does all the time
Theo Spears
Ping
news:86nfmc$fn1$1...@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net...
>
> this thread has the word REAL in it's title, I believe 3D is needed for
> decent modeling
>
Depends. . .look at the 3D models in SS2. . . they're awful. Like a few
weird triangles peiced together. Then. . .look at the 3D models in games
likes Baldur's Gate - they're luverly. . .but lack the animations that the
ones in SS2 have.
And what's wrong with 2D anyway?. . .if I'm not mistaken, almost all classic
and groundbreaking games were in 2D.
3D is way overrated IMO. . .
RedWordSmith
> this thread has the word REAL in it's title, I believe 3D is needed for
> decent modeling
Note, however, that in this case "real" is an adjective that modifies
"AL". Hence, it's "Real AL" not necessarily real-anything else. Real
AL could be in anything from a talking smiley face on window to a
full-blown robot. I think most of us are thinking a few notches above
the smiley face, which is roughly on par with C1.
> > True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
> >
> "Make it possible even if it is never used"
...in the hopes that it will be used someday...
Wolfbitch
t.com.au> writes
>oh, hang on, where do you live? i think the bananas have spread to america,
>but im not sure about england....then again it is aimed at very small
>children... ok i'll stop rambling now... :)
bananas in pyjamas have been around for YEARS in the UK!
--
Laz Spashett
"damaged people are dangerous, they know they can survive"
chani3
"John Ievins" <thegr...@thegrendel.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:86ncr0$o9v$6...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> xOtix <x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid> wrote
> > Mon 24 Jan 2000 05:57:50p, strode proudly front and centre in
> > alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
> >
> > >> That bananas in pyjamas one is a particularly good one, though. Can
you
> > >> give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it.
:`)
> > >>
> > >
> > >hrm... i live in canada... and i've heard of the eeevil bananas in
> > >pyjamas.... i even watched it a few times when i was really bored...
> > >::shudders::
> > >
> >
> > Oh, I see. a TV show is it? haven't owned a TV for over thirty years..
>
> No, it isn't actually a TV show. It's a little kids rhyme.
it is a tv show! i saw it several times... a really stupid tv show...
kinda like barney... ::shudders::
xOtix
Wed 26 Jan 2000 05:24:01p, strode proudly front and centre in
>
>"John Ievins" <thegr...@thegrendel.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:86ncr0$o9v$6...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> xOtix <x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid> wrote
>> > Mon 24 Jan 2000 05:57:50p, strode proudly front and centre in
>> > alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>> >
>> > >> That bananas in pyjamas one is a particularly good one, though. Can
>you
>> > >> give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it.
>:`)
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >hrm... i live in canada... and i've heard of the eeevil bananas in
>> > >pyjamas.... i even watched it a few times when i was really bored...
>> > >::shudders::
>> > >
>> >
>> > Oh, I see. a TV show is it? haven't owned a TV for over thirty years..
>>
>> No, it isn't actually a TV show. It's a little kids rhyme.
>
>it is a tv show! i saw it several times... a really stupid tv show...
>kinda like barney... ::shudders::
>
>
Eeeewwwww!!! ;`) Even I've heard of that horror...
xOtix
<388e20cf...@news.freeserve.co.uk> on Wed 26 Jan 2000 10:31:42a,
strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and with
appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>>who like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network
>>that was non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world
>>under all
>
>Surely it can be a techy product and still appeal to other people too.
>It could be a good simulation as a teaching aid, as well as being very
>updateable.
It could be a good teaching aid to help those of us who are programmingly
disadvantaged...?
>>> 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
>>> This will enable easier developer interaction.
>>>
>>how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support
>>genetics
>
>Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
>were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
>renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
>little gain in this case.
I agree. I find it much easier and quicker to render stationary objects in
2D. But 3D modelling would be helpful to render objects into 2D that change
or change direction over time.
>>> 3. Object driven script if good as it alows easy expansion of the
>>> environment, though scripts can be limiting. Some form of
>>> environement evolution would be Good though it would realy mean a 3D
>>> environment.
3D always looks like it's made out of plastic...
>>surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
>>powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough)
>>and the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
>It should involve a powerful scripting language, but not too
>complicated a language. CAOS was not powerful enough, but something
>like ASM or C would put most people. What it really needs is something
>like BASIC but relevent to the program, and powerful enough to be
>useful.
What about VB6?
>>> 5. Anything alive should contain basic genetics, though a few central
>>> lifeforms would alow a greater study of evolution.
>>
>>this might have performance penalties, but genetics could be done as
>>scripts with mutating variables
>
>If you do it as scripts it will restrict it a bit. One of the best
>things about Creatures is the ability to directly manipulate the
>genetics of a creature, and to change them quite a lot. If you simply
>have a script with mutating variables then it will restrict it a lot
>more than if you have a proper genetic structure built up.
>
>>> 6. Ok another thing riped from creatures but the software is still
>>> relevant and I feel it still has MANY merrits. Separate rooms, It
>>> could alow things to evolve on a tangent and make for interesting
>>> experiments. Such's as a hot dry dome and a cold wet one would cause
>>> different evolutionary traits.
>>
>>why stop at rooms, why not model a whole air flow system, and have each
>>point's temp etc calculated from that?
They wouldn't have to be domes, either..
And then things won't get stuck in odd corners..
>That would be interesting to see, but probably not entirely necessary.
>Surely all you would need is some way to determine the temperature at
>different points of the room given the average temperature, and not
>worry about air flow and things like that. You could say for example
>that the right side is hotter than the left, because there is a heat
>source there, and then simply have a gradient function over the room
>so that you get progressive cooling over the room.
>
>>> 9. Disease. Obvious, yet should also be mutateable.
>>
>>again, irrelavant to the engine
>
>Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
>could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
>actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
>you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
>the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
>viruses work.
I wouldn't mind this if it immunities actually got passed down through the
generations, or in the mother's "milk". I hate it when a disease just wipes
everyone out and you have to start over and the same thing happens again
the next time. Booooring!
>>> 10. More realistic DNA. DNA couldn't cause iron to combine with
>>> oxygen to form copper. (Not without killing everything within a 10
>>> mile radius anyway <g>) So why does it in Creatures.
>>
>>true chem reactions then? fair enough
>Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
>this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
>longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
>Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
>should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
>laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
>could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
>Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
Yeah, that sounds cool.
>>> 12. Easy to larn code. Such as CAOS. It should also be able to be
>>> used for external apps for non-programers such as myself, then I (I
>>> mean others) could make my (I mean our) own tools.
>>
>>i'm in favour of an ASM language, with compilers that can generate it.
>
>Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
>similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
>powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
>to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
>with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
>interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
Yes!
>>> 2. Stupid processor hungry animations.
>>
>>animations are a good way of getting info across, they also add to the
>>interactivity, if animation is not added people will hack it.
>
>True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
Yeah, you gotta leave somethingfor us poor artists to contribute. :`(
>One thing. All of this is my opinion. If anyone disagrees then simply
>say so, and I'll hit you :-)
<<hugs>>
xOtix
<86nfmc$fn1$1...@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> on Wed 26 Jan 2000
10:50:50a, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and
with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>> were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
>> renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
>> little gain in this case.
>
>decent modeling
I agree about the 3D modelling but I prefer 2D rendering of the 3D models.
>> If you do it as scripts it will restrict it a bit. One of the best
>> things about Creatures is the ability to directly manipulate the
>> genetics of a creature, and to change them quite a lot. If you simply
>> have a script with mutating variables then it will restrict it a lot
>> more than if you have a proper genetic structure built up.
>
>ok, my new slogan for this project: "Make it possible even if it is
>never used"
Good idea but let's not forget whose idea it was to do this.. Ant.
<snippies>
>> Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
>> could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
>> actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
>> you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
>> the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
>> viruses work.
>
>but I think desease should be scripted, which means there just needs to
>be a way of agents (sorry) to manipulate creatures body and chemistry
Why not make the diseases with their own dna instead of scripting it (I am
assuming you mean hard-coding)? That way they would evolve, too.
>> Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
>> this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
>> longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
>> Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
>> should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
>> laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
>> could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
>> Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>
>assuming that this game would take place in a universe akin to ours
"start with the known and work to the unknown" If you make it too alien to
begin with you'll limit your resource base --players, contributors, etc.
>> Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
>> similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
>> powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
>> to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
>> with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
>> interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
>
>yup, but asm as a core language, that's basicly what CAOS is after all.
>Then the game can be set up to autometically convert any number of
>languages to asm on the fly
Sounds like and over-complexity that would slow down the progress and
again, limit the contributions.. I think the last thing Ant wants is an
elitist program..
>> True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
>>
>"Make it possible even if it is never used"
>
>> One thing. All of this is my opinion. If anyone disagrees then simply
>> say so, and I'll hit you :-)
>>
>
>feel free, everyone does all the time
>
>Theo Spears
...Must......resist.......
xOtix
<948918645.10356.0...@news.demon.co.uk> on Wed 26 Jan 2000
12:30:19p, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and
with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>Theo Spears <theo....@virgin.IREALYHATEnetSPAMMERS> wrote in message
>news:86nfmc$fn1$1...@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net...
>
>>
>> this thread has the word REAL in it's title, I believe 3D is needed
>> for decent modeling
>>
>
>Depends. . .look at the 3D models in SS2. . . they're awful. Like a few
>weird triangles peiced together. Then. . .look at the 3D models in
>games likes Baldur's Gate - they're luverly. . .but lack the animations
>that the ones in SS2 have.
>
>And what's wrong with 2D anyway?. . .if I'm not mistaken, almost all
>classic and groundbreaking games were in 2D.
>
>3D is way overrated IMO. . .
YES!!!111!11!!!!1!1!1
Chris Double
> Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large
> engine could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming
> capacity tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to
> actually coordinating the different parts?
I think coordination of that people at the beginning of such a project
would be a significant effort - unless a functioning (albeit
bare-bones) engine already existed for people to contribute to.
> (In which case I find your lack of faith disturbing)
Is that you Darth?
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
xOtix
Jan 2000 02:33:03a, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures
>RedWordSmith <redwor...@nic.dreamhost.com> writes:
>
>> Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large
>> engine could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming
>> capacity tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to
>> actually coordinating the different parts?
>
>I think coordination of that people at the beginning of such a project
>would be a significant effort - unless a functioning (albeit
>bare-bones) engine already existed for people to contribute to.
I agree.
>> (In which case I find your lack of faith disturbing)
>
>Is that you Darth?
LOL!!
John Ievins
xOtix wrote
> >> Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
> >> were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
> >> renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
> >> little gain in this case.
> >
> >decent modeling
>
Well, the engine (methinks) should be based in 2D, to save runtime and to
make the interface similar... top-down or side-on?
> >but I think desease should be scripted, which means there just needs to
> >be a way of agents (sorry) to manipulate creatures body and chemistry
>
> Why not make the diseases with their own dna instead of scripting it (I am
> assuming you mean hard-coding)? That way they would evolve, too.
I heartily agree. Gengineered diseases would be excellent - as long as the
EXP (there will be an EXP, yeah?) will allow them to be sent online, because
it would be great to see a disease and a Creature help each others growth,
and stuff... in the same way that many self-replicating organisms help us,
and they merge into each other over evolution.
> >> Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
> >> this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
> >> longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
> >> Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
> >> should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
> >> laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
> >> could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
> >> Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
> >
> >assuming that this game would take place in a universe akin to ours
>
> "start with the known and work to the unknown" If you make it too alien to
> begin with you'll limit your resource base --players, contributors, etc.
But... it doesn't have to be hardcoded from the start, 'cos that would cost
runtime and genetic simplicity.
> >> Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
> >> similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
> >> powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
> >> to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
> >> with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
> >> interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
> >
> >yup, but asm as a core language, that's basicly what CAOS is after all.
> >Then the game can be set up to autometically convert any number of
> >languages to asm on the fly
>
> Sounds like and over-complexity that would slow down the progress and
> again, limit the contributions.. I think the last thing Ant wants is an
> elitist program..
How about having a seperate compiler to compile to the language, rather than
compile on the fly? Much less runtime intensive. That reminds me - I was
thinking about creating a BASIC --> CAOS compiler - good idea?
> >> True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
> >>
> >"Make it possible even if it is never used"
Of course! That's the point of the entire series - and that's what holds us
gengineers back so much (and I suspect cobblers, too)... the way CL refused
to add anything that wouldn't be used (eg. some 'skin chemicals' or 'air
chemicals' would be brilliant!).
--
John F. Ievins (aka The Grendel)
John Ievins is spelt with an i, not an L... Grrr!
John Ievins
Chris Double wrote...
>
> > Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large
> > engine could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming
> > capacity tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to
> > actually coordinating the different parts?
>
> I think coordination of that people at the beginning of such a project
> would be a significant effort - unless a functioning (albeit
> bare-bones) engine already existed for people to contribute to.
Yeah... basically, an engine is needed before any work can start. Any
C/Assembly coders care to speak up?
Also, in the long run you'll/we'll need an overall leader, a gengineering
leader (possibly one per type of Creature, and one for the diseases), a
brain leader (Hi, Chris!), a scripting leader, an object leader, and an art
leader... just how I'd organise the team if I were in charge, and whoever's
idea it was (Ant?), it's up to you. But you *really* need decent
organisation, considering how big a project this is... and you do *not* want
to be leading everything (something I've learnt from running a MOD for 3-4
weeks).
Theo Spears
> Good idea but let's not forget whose idea it was to do this.. Ant.
>
> Why not make the diseases with their own dna instead of scripting it (I am
> assuming you mean hard-coding)? That way they would evolve, too.
I don't mean hard coding. I don't think anything should be hard coded in the
entire game. The only hard coded things would be the physics model, the
genetic processor and the script runner. And I'm not even sure about the
first two
> >assuming that this game would take place in a universe akin to ours
>
> "start with the known and work to the unknown" If you make it too alien to
> begin with you'll limit your resource base --players, contributors, etc.
point taken
> Sounds like and over-complexity that would slow down the progress and
> again, limit the contributions.. I think the last thing Ant wants is an
> elitist program..
I still hold my opinions, I won't argue them though
> >
> >feel free, everyone does all the time
> >
> ...Must......resist.......
>
why?
Theo Spears
Graham Cox
<theo....@virgin.IREALYHATEnetSPAMMERS> Gave forth this really
invaluable piece of information:
>> Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
>> were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
>> renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
>> little gain in this case.
>
>this thread has the word REAL in it's title, I believe 3D is needed for
>decent modeling
Why? In a life simulation 3D will simply make the entire thing more
complex than it needs to be. 2D is all that is needed, and it makes
everything much easier. If you go for 3D you need to take into account
the location of everything in 3 Dimensions, and thus you need layering
for the objects. You also need to be able to measure distances in 3
Dimensions, so that if one object looks like it is directly on top on
another one then it doesn't necessarially mean that they will
interact. Then you've got the graphics. I've tried a little 3D with
Direct3D, and It's very difficult to do, and takes a lot of data to do
a very simple object. If you stick with 2D and simply use graphics
produced on a 3D renderer then you can make it look 3D but without
most of the extra work.
>> That would be interesting to see, but probably not entirely necessary.
>> Surely all you would need is some way to determine the temperature at
>> different points of the room given the average temperature, and not
>> worry about air flow and things like that. You could say for example
>> that the right side is hotter than the left, because there is a heat
>> source there, and then simply have a gradient function over the room
>> so that you get progressive cooling over the room.
>
>hmm.... I was actually thinking in terms of this, just having so each poin't
>temperature is calculated as a point, not as part of a room
Could be done. The problem before was that modelling air flow would
get complex. Doing as you just said would be much easier, and give
almost the same effect.
>> Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
>> could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
>> actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
>> you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
>> the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
>> viruses work.
>
>but I think desease should be scripted, which means there just needs to be a
>way of agents (sorry) to manipulate creatures body and chemistry
I totally agree there. The disease needs to be more than a simulation
effect. It needs to actually do something, which needs scripting or
actual genetics. Scripting is obviously the better choice there
because the disease shouldn't need to mutate and breed too much.
>> Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
>> this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
>> longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
>> Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
>> should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
>> laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
>> could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
>> Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>
>assuming that this game would take place in a universe akin to ours
And if it doesn't then you can simply change the chemistry laws so
that they work properly. The problem with creatures is that each
individual creature can have different chemical laws, and so it's not
really realistic.
>> Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
>> similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
>> powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
>> to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
>> with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
>> interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
>
>yup, but asm as a core language, that's basicly what CAOS is after all. Then
>the game can be set up to autometically convert any number of languages to
>asm on the fly
Ah. That makes sense. You mean to write the scripts in one language,
e.g. CAOS or BASIC, and then compile it to ASM for use in the game.
That would be the best method from all aspects, as you get the
performance of ASM and the ease of use of a higher level language.
Jasp
<theo....@virgin.IREALYHATEnetSPAMMERS> brightened our day with the
following:
>
>> Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
>> Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
>> this comunity may seem bleak.
>>
>surely a new set of creatures players would fill the gap, we'd no longer be
>here, but other people would
>
>> possible. The product would be designed in such a way that it is
>> easily updateable by a third party, and all code will be freely
>> available.
>
>Under GNU?
>
>> A developers network will be set up which sould be
>> non-intimidating and open to all. The aim is to produce the product we
>> want and will be the vision of all.
>>
>so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people who
>like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network that was
>non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world under all
I'm not saying anything here, this is what's been made clear in other
threads. (Ant is the person who has come up with the base idea) I
think the product is meant to be like Creatures, open to all, easy to
use yet configueable. Realy you should ask others, I was just
outlining the basics for those that hadn't been reading 'Another
Important message'
Jasp,
--
You are welcome to visit
http://members.netscapeonline.co.uk/jaspglover/
anytime, but unfortunately there is so much there I
can barely cover it in this space. All I'll say is
that it has stuff on RCT, C1, C2, C3, CC, DK2,Worms
Armeggedon, as well as a few freeware games.
Random quote now follows:-
"Ha, the 'Turin Shroud' Looks a bit like a face!" -A friend
Jasp
<theo....@virgin.IREALYHATEnetSPAMMERS> brightened our day with the
following:
>Note,I don't think the ideas i labeled as irrelavant to the engine are
>useless, i just think the engine should not be desgined with them as a built
>in feature, flexability is the key to any system.
>
>btw, anyone heard of uniword? :)
My suggestions were for the program as a whole, not for just the
engine. I think though the engine should be flexible. Oh well well se
how it develops, I'll continue to submit any ideas I get.
Jasp
<redwor...@nic.dreamhost.com> brightened our day with the
following:
>> how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support genetics
>
>How about a tile-based 2D world, so it takes up less disk space?
What? You mean like RCT? (Or any tycoon game)
Jasp
<Pi...@nospam.demon.co.uk> brightened our day with the following:
>
>Jasp <jaspg...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:3887706c...@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk...
>> Well, as CL is now CL and C4 is now likely to be as far from C1 as
>> Teletubies is from the Chainsaw Massacar It looks like the future of
>> this comunity may seem bleak.
>>
>> Fortunately Ant has come to the rescue (see 'Another Important
><snip>
>
>That's a good idea.
>But impossible.
>How would a small community fund, compile and market a game like that?
>Heck, I know those guys who made treadmarks started off in ~sort~ of the
>same manner, but 'tis pretty foolish to think it would be possible - because
>it sounds like it's a bit *too* advanced for an independant group of
>developers to build. Something simpler on the other hand. . . .
I don't think Ant was planning to market it. But It could be done,
only the engine and a simple base block is needed to start off with,
the rest is built on top.
Jasp
qcail...@aol.comspamenot (invisible girl) brightened our day with
the following:
>Jasp writes:
>
>>The aim is to produce the product we
>>want and will be the vision of all.
>
>Er, agc? Unified vision? In all seriousness, I don't think you could create
>something that would satisfy more than a third of the community - unless the
>end product was highly customizable by the user.
>
Obviously, but we could get a darn sight closer than one unmentioned
company.
Jasp
<cha...@home.com> brightened our day with the following:
>i demand that evil bananas be included!!!
>8*)
>
>
Do you realise that if this thing gets off the ground Evil Bananas
will now crop up in it! Just because of this thread.
RedWordSmith
>
> >How about a tile-based 2D world, so it takes up less disk space?
>
> What? You mean like RCT? (Or any tycoon game)
>
> Jasp,
I mean like Sonic the Hedgehog, Mario, or any 16-bit era video game,
almost all of which were at least partially tile-based.
John Ievins
Chris Double wrote
> > Well, the engine (methinks) should be based in 2D, to save runtime
> > and to make the interface similar... top-down or side-on?
>
> provide information or hooks for external programs/libraries to
> use. One of these external programs/libraries can be a user interface,
> whether that is 3D, 2D, web based view of the world, whatever. Then
> the project can concentrate on the fun AI/AL stuff and not get tied
> down dealing with graphics stuff.
Yeah, and that would speed up development loads! At first, all that's
needed is a little VB interface or something, to give the morale increase!
Anyways, if there are any A-Life programs out there with, say, a ready-made
neural network, then they can interface with the hooks... which would be
much easier.
> > How about having a seperate compiler to compile to the language,
> > rather than compile on the fly? Much less runtime intensive.
>
> Or use a language that compiles to machine code, allows interactive
> entry and redefinition at run time (ie. scripting) also compiled to
> machine code. No need to design a scripting language then. You get to
> concentrate on the AL/AI rather than designing a language, compiler
> and/or interpreter.
Yeah! Great.
> > the way CL refused to add anything that wouldn't be used (eg. some
> > 'skin chemicals' or 'air chemicals' would be brilliant!).
>
> Refused? It's more likely to be that they are not omniscient and can't
> think of every possible thing that everyone wanted.
Can you think of one thing that they included, except possibly a few SV
rules, which wasn't used? And things that don't work, or were planning to
be implemented (but time refused) don't count.
Chris Double
> Yeah... basically, an engine is needed before any work can start.
> Any C/Assembly coders care to speak up?
Ok, I promise this is the last time I mention it unless asked for more
information. Anyone who starts something like this, please consider
using a higher level language:
http://www.python.org
http://www.double.co.nz/dylan
http://www.double.co.nz/cl
I'll be quiet now :-).
> a brain leader (Hi, Chris!)
This is Ant's project and while I look forward to seeing the result of
it I'm not able to work on it. It sounds like it'll be a good project
though.
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
Chris Double
> Well, the engine (methinks) should be based in 2D, to save runtime
> and to make the interface similar... top-down or side-on?
Or have the engine have no user interface at all. Have the engine
provide information or hooks for external programs/libraries to
use. One of these external programs/libraries can be a user interface,
whether that is 3D, 2D, web based view of the world, whatever. Then
the project can concentrate on the fun AI/AL stuff and not get tied
down dealing with graphics stuff.
> How about having a seperate compiler to compile to the language,
> rather than compile on the fly? Much less runtime intensive.
Or use a language that compiles to machine code, allows interactive
entry and redefinition at run time (ie. scripting) also compiled to
machine code. No need to design a scripting language then. You get to
concentrate on the AL/AI rather than designing a language, compiler
and/or interpreter.
> the way CL refused to add anything that wouldn't be used (eg. some
> 'skin chemicals' or 'air chemicals' would be brilliant!).
Refused? It's more likely to be that they are not omniscient and can't
think of every possible thing that everyone wanted.
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
chani3
> On the amazing day of Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:57:52 GMT, "chani3"
> <cha...@home.com> brightened our day with the following:
>
>
> >i demand that evil bananas be included!!!
> >8*)
> >
> >
>
> Do you realise that if this thing gets off the ground Evil Bananas
> will now crop up in it! Just because of this thread.
> Jasp,
>
BWAHAHAHAHAAHAA!!!!!!!!!!! haha. ha.
ahem.
::giggle:: 8*)
Linus Tan
awhile ::swears at certain unnamed M$ products:: Im very intrested. Thx
Soulshift
Chris Double
>
> Can you think of one thing that they included, except possibly a few
> SV rules, which wasn't used?
I'm confused. I must have misunderstood the point you were trying to
make. What was it exactly?
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
John Ievins
Chris Double wrote
> > Can you think of one thing that they included, except possibly a few
> > SV rules, which wasn't used?
>
> I'm confused. I must have misunderstood the point you were trying to
> make. What was it exactly?
I'm trying to say that CL said what they wanted the Norn genome to do, and
then wrote the genetic code & scripts to do that... they didn't add anything
else, which might otherwise have been used in evolution or gengineering.
ant
xOtix wrote in message <8EC8C2CA8f53...@207.126.101.100>...
>cox_@_grahama99_._freeserve_._co_._uk (Graham Cox)
><388e20cf...@news.freeserve.co.uk> on Wed 26 Jan 2000 10:31:42a,
>strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and with
>appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>>>so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people
>>>who like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network
>>>that was non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world
>>>under all
>>
>>Surely it can be a techy product and still appeal to other people too.
>>It could be a good simulation as a teaching aid, as well as being very
>>updateable.
>
>It could be a good teaching aid to help those of us who are programmingly
>disadvantaged...?
>
that is what i have in mind, as there will be a fully commented and
explained source code, plus the internal genetic language of course.
>>>> 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
>>>> This will enable easier developer interaction.
>>>>
>>>how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support
>>>genetics
>>
>>Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
>>were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
>>renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
>>little gain in this case.
>
>I agree. I find it much easier and quicker to render stationary objects in
>2D. But 3D modelling would be helpful to render objects into 2D that
change
>or change direction over time.
>
i hate to break this to you but it _has_ to be a 3d environment for my dna
based shape rules to work, think of plants that grow, each one individual
with the potential to evolve over time int a new shape altogether.
>>>> 3. Object driven script if good as it alows easy expansion of the
>>>> environment, though scripts can be limiting. Some form of
>>>> environement evolution would be Good though it would realy mean a 3D
>>>> environment.
>
>3D always looks like it's made out of plastic...
>
yes but as the technology gets better its rendering engin can be updated.
>>>surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
>>>powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough)
>>>and the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
>>It should involve a powerful scripting language, but not too
>>complicated a language. CAOS was not powerful enough, but something
>>like ASM or C would put most people. What it really needs is something
>>like BASIC but relevent to the program, and powerful enough to be
>>useful.
>
>What about VB6?
argh, not to be impolite but i dont want to taint it with the stench of M$
code, yes i can make a simple VB app, that is why i dont want to use it. i
have not made a fina decision though, it will be very different from
creatures, event scripts will eb redundant as the game physics rules will
cover most interactions.
>
>>>> 5. Anything alive should contain basic genetics, though a few central
>>>> lifeforms would alow a greater study of evolution.
>>>
>>>this might have performance penalties, but genetics could be done as
>>>scripts with mutating variables
>>
>>If you do it as scripts it will restrict it a bit. One of the best
>>things about Creatures is the ability to directly manipulate the
>>genetics of a creature, and to change them quite a lot. If you simply
>>have a script with mutating variables then it will restrict it a lot
>>more than if you have a proper genetic structure built up.
>>
>>>> 6. Ok another thing riped from creatures but the software is still
>>>> relevant and I feel it still has MANY merrits. Separate rooms, It
>>>> could alow things to evolve on a tangent and make for interesting
>>>> experiments. Such's as a hot dry dome and a cold wet one would cause
>>>> different evolutionary traits.
>>>
>>>why stop at rooms, why not model a whole air flow system, and have each
>>>point's temp etc calculated from that?
>
>They wouldn't have to be domes, either..
>And then things won't get stuck in odd corners..
>
picture a small world, mapped into a box, this is not going to be a quick
project :-)
>>That would be interesting to see, but probably not entirely necessary.
>>Surely all you would need is some way to determine the temperature at
>>different points of the room given the average temperature, and not
>>worry about air flow and things like that. You could say for example
>>that the right side is hotter than the left, because there is a heat
>>source there, and then simply have a gradient function over the room
>>so that you get progressive cooling over the room.
>>
i have seen some pretty simple formulas that will aproximate air flow and
convection and so on. time to start working on my discussion paper, to more
clearly outline the vision.
ahh, someone who begins to see a little of the big picture, no sprites
either, as an organisims shape will be entirly determined by the dna, so i
had to shift the chem reactions out of the dna and into the physics engin
where they belong.
>Yeah, that sounds cool.
>
>>>> 12. Easy to larn code. Such as CAOS. It should also be able to be
>>>> used for external apps for non-programers such as myself, then I (I
>>>> mean others) could make my (I mean our) own tools.
>>>
>>>i'm in favour of an ASM language, with compilers that can generate it.
>>
>>Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
>>similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
>>powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
>>to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
>>with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
>>interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
>
>Yes!
i am thinking of also finally developing my true visual (iconic based)
programming language, also needs a 3d interface to visulaise the code,
picture pipes and junction nodes. the pipes connect the different functions
which are embeded in the junction nodes, it is easy to turn a programming
language into icons, what bothers me is that nobody has done it and i
thought of the idea and started doing some theory work on the idea five
years ago, i assumed that if i could picture it so clearly someone else
would have as well, but five years later and nothing has appeard :-( looks
like i am going to have to do it myself.
>
>>>> 2. Stupid processor hungry animations.
>>>
>>>animations are a good way of getting info across, they also add to the
>>>interactivity, if animation is not added people will hack it.
>>
>>True. The ability should be there even if it's not used.
>
>Yeah, you gotta leave somethingfor us poor artists to contribute. :`(
dont you worry, us artists will not be forgotten, one of the first modules
will be the dna to shape plotter/editor so that we can start making plants,
animals and so on as the game engin will create the organisims images from
the dna on the fly. so to make a pretty new butterfly for example would
involve opening the flying insect template, and warping it into a
butterfly, the editor will hopefully support a very graphical creature
creation/modification mode, allowing easy warping of plants and animals.
and people thought creatures pigment genes were complicated :-) hence the
first bit status of the editor, i want people to be able to get a feel for
the rules, and besides in another thread i have outlined why this is also
the core of the sims visulalisation system. thus if i can make that bit
work the rest will be relativly easy, no ground breaking stuff.
>
>>One thing. All of this is my opinion. If anyone disagrees then simply
>>say so, and I'll hit you :-)
>
><<hugs>>
LOL
ant
ant
xOtix wrote in message <8EC8C8409f53...@207.126.101.100>...
>theo....@virgin.IREALYHATEnetSPAMMERS (Theo Spears)
><86nfmc$fn1$1...@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> on Wed 26 Jan 2000
>10:50:50a, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and
>with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>>> Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
>>> were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
>>> renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
>>> little gain in this case.
>>
>>decent modeling
>
>
i think of it as if we are projecting a 2d view of the 3d world onto a
screen, in other words the camera is not going to float around following
creatures(a creature view might be possible by reading out the data from
the things visual cortex and retina) but you will be able to decide what
view you want to observe the world from.
>>> If you do it as scripts it will restrict it a bit. One of the best
>>> things about Creatures is the ability to directly manipulate the
>>> genetics of a creature, and to change them quite a lot. If you simply
>>> have a script with mutating variables then it will restrict it a lot
>>> more than if you have a proper genetic structure built up.
>>
>>ok, my new slogan for this project: "Make it possible even if it is
>>never used"
>
>Good idea but let's not forget whose idea it was to do this.. Ant.
well, i am happy to wathc the ideas evolve, i will be taking it all in.
next is a comprehensive discussion paper or two to outline the vision in a
clear and precise way.
>
><snippies>
>
>>> Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
>>> could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
>>> actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
>>> you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
>>> the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
>>> viruses work.
>>
>>but I think desease should be scripted, which means there just needs to
>>be a way of agents (sorry) to manipulate creatures body and chemistry
>
>Why not make the diseases with their own dna instead of scripting it (I am
>assuming you mean hard-coding)? That way they would evolve, too.
it will all be DNA based :-) and the engin will support viri and bacteria
as part of the natiure of the world.
>
>>> Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
>>> this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
>>> longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
>>> Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
>>> should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
>>> laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
>>> could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
>>> Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>>
>>assuming that this game would take place in a universe akin to ours
>
>"start with the known and work to the unknown" If you make it too alien to
>begin with you'll limit your resource base --players, contributors, etc.
>
the wolrd maker will also be part of the early code needed to develope the
game, as you are going to have to actully make the world form the rocks up.
>>> Not ASM. ASM is too specialised a language to use. It should really be
>>> similar to BASIC, so that more people can learn it and use it, but
>>> powerful enough to do what you need it to. It should have full access
>>> to every in game variable that exists, and also be able to interact
>>> with windows(possibly) for externat interaction. Also, external
>>> interaction of other programs should be as easy as possible.
>>
>>yup, but asm as a core language, that's basicly what CAOS is after all.
>>Then the game can be set up to autometically convert any number of
>>languages to asm on the fly
>
>Sounds like and over-complexity that would slow down the progress and
>again, limit the contributions.. I think the last thing Ant wants is an
>elitist program..
well said, a recompileabel source is one thing, dynamic recoding
fromseveral development languages is way to difficult for me, if someone
else wants to make the dynamic recoder to plug into the game to expand the
languages it supports they are welcome to,once we have the framework of the
engin worked out.
ant
Chris Double
> it is easy to turn a programming language into icons, what bothers
> me is that nobody has done it and i thought of the idea and started
> doing some theory work on the idea five years ago, i assumed that if
> i could picture it so clearly someone else would have as well, but
> five years later and nothing has appeard :-(
There are in fact visual programming languages like you describe and
they have been around for many, many years. I've used a smalltalk
system that does what you describe that was designed in the late 70's
early 80's for example. You might want to take a look at Squeak
Smalltalk, and the ThingLab examples. The Morphic UI also has features
like you describe. In fact, the goal of the Squeak Morphic UI
interface (IIRC) was to be like you want and it is not too far
off. You can drag and drop components representing language features,
connect them, etc, etc. Very nice it is too.
There was/is a newsgroup for visual languages. It is
comp.lang.visual. Unfortunately it was taken over by VB programmers
last I read it. Don't be fooled, it was originally set up for truly
visual programming languages.
Some games use similar approaches to programming too. The Lego
MindStorm robots, MindRover from CogniToy, a robot learning game I
used to play on the Apple2 whose name I forgot, and I'm sure there are
others.
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
ant
Chris Double wrote in message ...
>"ant" <dont...@evil.spam> writes:
>
>> it is easy to turn a programming language into icons, what bothers
>> me is that nobody has done it and i thought of the idea and started
>> doing some theory work on the idea five years ago, i assumed that if
>> i could picture it so clearly someone else would have as well, but
>> five years later and nothing has appeard :-(
>
>they have been around for many, many years. I've used a smalltalk
>system that does what you describe that was designed in the late 70's
>early 80's for example. You might want to take a look at Squeak
>Smalltalk, and the ThingLab examples. The Morphic UI also has features
>like you describe. In fact, the goal of the Squeak Morphic UI
>interface (IIRC) was to be like you want and it is not too far
>off. You can drag and drop components representing language features,
>connect them, etc, etc. Very nice it is too.
>
>There was/is a newsgroup for visual languages. It is
>comp.lang.visual. Unfortunately it was taken over by VB programmers
>last I read it. Don't be fooled, it was originally set up for truly
>visual programming languages.
>
>Some games use similar approaches to programming too. The Lego
>MindStorm robots, MindRover from CogniToy, a robot learning game I
>used to play on the Apple2 whose name I forgot, and I'm sure there are
>others.
>
VB hijacking the term it is hard to tell what is truly visual and what is a
windowed version of a conventional script based language. i think i have
something to keep me occupied when i am not working on graphics and cobs
for my first c1 world. i really didn't know that others had already tried
what i was thinking of. this is very encouraging, :-)
ant
Chris Double
> I'm trying to say that CL said what they wanted the Norn genome to
> do, and then wrote the genetic code & scripts to do that... they
> didn't add anything else, which might otherwise have been used in
> evolution or gengineering.
Ahh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I see your point.
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
Chris Double
> >Some games use similar approaches to programming too. The Lego
> >MindStorm robots, MindRover from CogniToy, a robot learning game I
> >used to play on the Apple2 whose name I forgot, and I'm sure there are
> >others.
> >
>
> thanks for the pointers, will do a web search next time i am online, with
> VB hijacking the term it is hard to tell what is truly visual and what is a
> windowed version of a conventional script based language.
Yes, it can make searching difficult. Some programming languages can
be difficult to find information on with names like Dylan, Beta, Tom,
A#, etc.
Here are some starting points:
MindRover: http://www.cognitoy.com
Squeak: http://www.squeak.org
ThingLab: http://www.2share.com/thinglab/ThingLab%20-%20index.html
(Probably not as visual as you'd envisage but it was 1979...)
If 3D is your thing for your program you might get some ideas from
Alice (a tool for building 3D interactive worlds). A Squeak
implementation of Alice is talked about at:
http://www.phaidros.com/DIGITALIS/englisch/sqk/sqk00130.htm
You may not want to use things like the above in final completed
programs but they make great tools for experimenting quickly with
ideas. And you may find that they work just fine in final
applications.
For AL, you might want to have a look at Larry Yeager's PolyWorld for
which source code is available:
http://www.beanblossom.in.us/larryy/PolyWorld.html
"PolyWorld is a computational ecology that I developed to explore
issues in Artificial Life. Simulated organisms reproduce sexually,
fight and kill and eat each other, eat the food that grows
throughout the world, and either develop successful strategies for
survival or die. An organism's entire behavioral suite (move, turn,
attack, eat, mate, light) is controlled by its neural network
"brain". Each brain's architecture--it's neural wiring diagram--is
determined from its genetic code, in terms of number, size, and
composition of neural clusters (excitatory and inhibitory neurons)
and the types of connections between those clusters (connection
density and topological mapping). Synaptic efficacy is modulated via
Hebbian learning, so, in principle, the organisms have the ability
to learn during the course of their lifetimes. The organisms
perceive their world through a sense of vision, provided by a
computer graphic rendering of the world from each organism's point
of view. The organisms' physiologies are also encoded genetically,
so both brain and body, and thus all components of behavior, evolve
over multiple generations. A variety of "species", with varying
individual and group survival strategies have emerged in various
simulations, displaying such complex ethological behaviors as
swarming/flocking, foraging, and attack avoidance."
> i think i have something to keep me occupied when i am not working
> on graphics and cobs for my first c1 world. i really didn't know
> that others had already tried what i was thinking of. this is very
> encouraging, :-)
There is a lifetime of stuff out there. I have a bad habit of always
looking at the stuff and never doing something myself. Sometimes you
just gotta stop reading and start doing :-)
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
Graham Cox
<thegr...@thegrendel.freeserve.co.uk> Gave forth this really
invaluable piece of information:
>
>Chris Double wrote...
>>
>> > Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large
>> > engine could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming
>> > capacity tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to
>> > actually coordinating the different parts?
>>
>> I think coordination of that people at the beginning of such a project
>> would be a significant effort - unless a functioning (albeit
>> bare-bones) engine already existed for people to contribute to.
>
>Yeah... basically, an engine is needed before any work can start. Any
>C/Assembly coders care to speak up?
I can do C and C++, and I'm kinda learning ASM now. I'm not the best
coder ever, but i'm not too bad either.
Graham Cox
Gave forth this really invaluable piece of information:
>>>so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people
>>>who like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network
>>>that was non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world
>>>under all
>>
>>Surely it can be a techy product and still appeal to other people too.
>>It could be a good simulation as a teaching aid, as well as being very
>>updateable.
>
>It could be a good teaching aid to help those of us who are programmingly
>disadvantaged...?
Eh. What does that mean? I was thinking that it could help teach basic
Biology, but that too.
>>Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
>>were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
>>renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
>>little gain in this case.
>
>I agree. I find it much easier and quicker to render stationary objects in
>2D. But 3D modelling would be helpful to render objects into 2D that change
>or change direction over time.
How about having several pictures, JPEG format is good because of the
compression, for the different poses. It may just be me, but I can't
stand 3D coding, and so don't do it if I can help it.
>>>surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
>>>powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough)
>>>and the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
>>It should involve a powerful scripting language, but not too
>>complicated a language. CAOS was not powerful enough, but something
>>like ASM or C would put most people. What it really needs is something
>>like BASIC but relevent to the program, and powerful enough to be
>>useful.
>
>What about VB6?
If we would be allowed to, by M$, then thats a good choice. The
problem is that I don't see M$ letting us use it for free. Something
like Chris suggested would be better, because their free for anyone to
get and use, and while being a bit obscure arn't all that hard to
learn from what I've seen.
>I wouldn't mind this if it immunities actually got passed down through the
>generations, or in the mother's "milk". I hate it when a disease just wipes
>everyone out and you have to start over and the same thing happens again
>the next time. Booooring!
If the immunity was genetic then it probably would. If it was learnt
then it could be, depending on if the creatures taught the next
generation,Kai norns, or left them to fend for themselves, any other
norns,. Antidotes passed on in the mothers milk could be possible,
but would probably be a bit harder.
>>Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
>>this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
>>longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
>>Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
>>should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
>>laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
>>could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
>>Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>
>Yeah, that sounds cool.
That's what I thought. I also thought that if you stuck all this
information in a file, then you could easily change the
chemistry/physics of the game and see what happens. If the file format
was easy to understand, or better yet there was a program to edit the
file, then it would be easy for people to edit it and thus change
physics and see the results. The file could contain all the physical
constants, and have the game engine rely on them, so that you can
change gravity for example and watch the results. Just think, having
gravity being repulsive and not attractive <eg>
>>One thing. All of this is my opinion. If anyone disagrees then simply
>>say so, and I'll hit you :-)
>
><<hugs>>
<<<hugs back>>>
Sotek
news:86udv4$75s$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Chris Double wrote...
> >
> > > Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large
> > > engine could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming
> > > capacity tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to
> > > actually coordinating the different parts?
> >
> > I think coordination of that people at the beginning of such a project
> > would be a significant effort - unless a functioning (albeit
> > bare-bones) engine already existed for people to contribute to.
>
> Yeah... basically, an engine is needed before any work can start. Any
> C/Assembly coders care to speak up?
I can do some C++... I think. :p
<pnip stuff and sig>
--
-Sotek, Acolyte of Helen, member of ERFNB and NT, hater of Warhammer 40K,
and firmly convinced anarchy is a stable form of government.
Owner of 3 AGC Cheese points.
My page (only good for stories): http://www.sotek.homecreatures.com
NornTech: http://www.norntech.homecreatures.com
Now for the wierd bit.
Random Quotes of the time being:
Wyvern: could somebody please tell the Shee that colonizing and then
abandoning planets and spaceships full of norns and grendels all over the
galaxy can be construed as littering
Miranda: I mean, by the end you'd have flying norns in spaceships and
grendels dancing and singing show tunes, Amoranth.
Miranda: If I wrote it, that is.
Wyvern: There's a lot of interesting material to read on AGC. Pages of it
Wyvern: And that's just Sotek's sig
And Random Story Quote of the time being:
[From TheTypoDemon to renalraH] I am not happy...
[From rednalraH to TheTypoDemon]
John Ievins
ant wrote:
> >>>so you are saying this is rather firmly a "techy" product, for people
> >>>who like to fiddle? IMHO it'd be hard to create a developer network
> >>>that was non-intimadating to all, if you include everyone in the world
> >>>under all
> >>
> >>Surely it can be a techy product and still appeal to other people too.
> >>It could be a good simulation as a teaching aid, as well as being very
> >>updateable.
> >
> >It could be a good teaching aid to help those of us who are programmingly
> >disadvantaged...?
> >
>
> that is what i have in mind, as there will be a fully commented and
> explained source code, plus the internal genetic language of course.
Genetic language? Genetics isn't programming, it's setup... y'know, stuff.
Anyway, if anyone was genetic engineering, they could do it in the Creatures
series?
> >>>> 2. If a graphical display is chosen I feel it is best to opt for 2D.
> >>>> This will enable easier developer interaction.
> >>>>
> >>>how about 3D, converting a version of the quake engine to support
> >>>genetics
> >>
> >>Not 3D. 3D is a lot of work, and is not needed. The graphics in C2
> >>were better than is really needed, and was all produced on a 3D
> >>renderer and displayed as 2D graphics. 3D simply means more work for
> >>little gain in this case.
> >
> >I agree. I find it much easier and quicker to render stationary objects
in
> >2D. But 3D modelling would be helpful to render objects into 2D that
> change
> >or change direction over time.
> >
> i hate to break this to you but it _has_ to be a 3d environment for my dna
> based shape rules to work, think of plants that grow, each one individual
> with the potential to evolve over time int a new shape altogether.
Ouch. I like the idea, but is it practical? 3D enviroment = slow runtime.
I don't see why some kind of shape evolution couldn't happen in 2D... even
if it's hard to code.
> >>>> 3. Object driven script if good as it alows easy expansion of the
> >>>> environment, though scripts can be limiting. Some form of
> >>>> environement evolution would be Good though it would realy mean a 3D
> >>>> environment.
> >
> >3D always looks like it's made out of plastic...
> >
>
> yes but as the technology gets better its rendering engin can be updated.
Anyway, isn't the point of this the AL technology rather than the 3D
technology?
> >>>surely this is mostly not relavant to the engine, give the engine a
> >>>powerfull enough scripting language (IMHO caos is not powerful enough)
> >>>and the behaviour of the enviroment is not limited.
> >>It should involve a powerful scripting language, but not too
> >>complicated a language. CAOS was not powerful enough, but something
> >>like ASM or C would put most people. What it really needs is something
> >>like BASIC but relevent to the program, and powerful enough to be
> >>useful.
> >
> >What about VB6?
> argh, not to be impolite but i dont want to taint it with the stench of M$
> code, yes i can make a simple VB app, that is why i dont want to use it. i
> have not made a fina decision though, it will be very different from
> creatures, event scripts will eb redundant as the game physics rules will
> cover most interactions.
Okay... how slow will this be?
<pnip>
> >>>> 6. Ok another thing riped from creatures but the software is still
> >>>> relevant and I feel it still has MANY merrits. Separate rooms, It
> >>>> could alow things to evolve on a tangent and make for interesting
> >>>> experiments. Such's as a hot dry dome and a cold wet one would cause
> >>>> different evolutionary traits.
> >>>
> >>>why stop at rooms, why not model a whole air flow system, and have each
> >>>point's temp etc calculated from that?
> >
> >They wouldn't have to be domes, either..
> >And then things won't get stuck in odd corners..
> picture a small world, mapped into a box, this is not going to be a quick
> project :-)
Methinks you're a bit over-ambitious.
> >>That would be interesting to see, but probably not entirely necessary.
> >>Surely all you would need is some way to determine the temperature at
> >>different points of the room given the average temperature, and not
> >>worry about air flow and things like that. You could say for example
> >>that the right side is hotter than the left, because there is a heat
> >>source there, and then simply have a gradient function over the room
> >>so that you get progressive cooling over the room.
> i have seen some pretty simple formulas that will aproximate air flow and
> convection and so on. time to start working on my discussion paper, to
more
> clearly outline the vision.
I'd like to see it... looks interesting. Only thing is - no offense, or
anything - but isn't this completely separate from the concept of AL? I
don't see how air flow will enhance the science? And it will slow down
runtime.
> >>>> 9. Disease. Obvious, yet should also be mutateable.
> >>>
> >>>again, irrelavant to the engine
> >>
> >>Not really. Disease would force the creatures to adapt to it, and this
> >>could cause some interesting effects. It should be possible, if not
> >>actually done, simply so that the ability is there for later on. All
> >>you would really need is a way for one creature or script to change
> >>the genetics of another creature in certain ways, which is vaguly how
> >>viruses work.
> >
> >I wouldn't mind this if it immunities actually got passed down through
the
> >generations, or in the mother's "milk". I hate it when a disease just
> wipes
> >everyone out and you have to start over and the same thing happens again
> >the next time. Booooring!
Well, shouldn't a disease be present in Creatures, and that be the only
method of catching... well, that was my idea when I first thought about
'contagious DNA'... ie an organ can be 'caught' by another creature, and can
disappear from a Creatures genetic makeup. I'm writing a paper - I thought
it might be implementable in this, considering this section... but I don't
know if I'll be able to take part, considering the runtime that's going to
be needed.
> >>>> 10. More realistic DNA. DNA couldn't cause iron to combine with
> >>>> oxygen to form copper. (Not without killing everything within a 10
> >>>> mile radius anyway <g>) So why does it in Creatures.
> >>>
> >>>true chem reactions then? fair enough
> >>Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
> >>this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
> >>longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
> >>Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
> >>should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
> >>laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
> >>could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
> >>Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>
> ahh, someone who begins to see a little of the big picture, no sprites
> either, as an organisims shape will be entirly determined by the dna, so i
> had to shift the chem reactions out of the dna and into the physics engin
> where they belong.
Processor time? Anyway, the gene code looks to complex.
*runs*
imagine gene editing for that? It would take months to create even the
simplist Norn!
ant
Chris Double wrote in message ...
>
>> I'm trying to say that CL said what they wanted the Norn genome to
>> do, and then wrote the genetic code & scripts to do that... they
>> didn't add anything else, which might otherwise have been used in
>> evolution or gengineering.
>
>Ahh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I see your point.
>
that is one of the things that bothers me, the function follows form design
of creatures as opposed to the natural form follows function. BTW i am
going to compile all the different replies and ideas in this thread into
one big post, what have i done, i feel a bit like doctor Frankenstein, who
has awoken a monster. not really, it sort of makes me feel that the time is
right. but i really cant claim leadership, a bit of direction and if i can
build my DNA to shape compiler it should work, i have an institive feel for
morphology, its just a matter of turning it into a set of rules. plants
first, insects are a problem(none of my rules work for them), but i already
have some good ideas for vertebrates, and i have solved the internal organ
problem, set instinctive and size, growth rate and malleability and let the
different bits grow into each other filling the space available, now onto
the cardio vascular system.
ant
ant
Linus Tan wrote in message <87114q$mit$1...@clematis.singnet.com.sg>...
>Could someone send me a short FAQ on this? I've been out of the loop for
>awhile ::swears at certain unnamed M$ products:: Im very intrested. Thx
>
>Soulshift
>
>
about a week or so.
ant
ant
Chris Double wrote in message ...
thanks for digging out those links for me.
>
>There is a lifetime of stuff out there. I have a bad habit of always
>looking at the stuff and never doing something myself. Sometimes you
>just gotta stop reading and start doing :-)
>
i know that feeling, unfortuatly i have inherited my dads sponge like
memory, so it tend to get lost in speculation to often. but my many
diverse intrestes has helped in many ways.
>Chris.
>--
>http://www.double.co.nz/creatures
xOtix
<3894b755...@news.freeserve.co.uk> on Tue 01 Feb 2000 11:13:31a,
strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures and with
appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>How about having several pictures, JPEG format is good because of the
>compression, for the different poses. It may just be me, but I can't
>stand 3D coding, and so don't do it if I can help it.
That may be the great thing about this project. If it's a job you hate, it
will be sure to be a job someone else loves... But Ant is definitely into
using 3D. I'm not sure how us artists are going to be able to
contribute...
<pnip>
>>What about VB6?
>
>If we would be allowed to, by M$, then thats a good choice. The
>problem is that I don't see M$ letting us use it for free. Something
>like Chris suggested would be better, because their free for anyone to
>get and use, and while being a bit obscure arn't all that hard to
>learn from what I've seen.
Do you mean to tell me that if actually use the program I paid M$ for
(VB6), I'm not allowed to distribute (or sell) the things I produce with
it without their permission? *urk!* Dylan here I come!
>>I wouldn't mind this if it immunities actually got passed down through
>>the generations, or in the mother's "milk". I hate it when a disease
>>just wipes everyone out and you have to start over and the same thing
>>happens again the next time. Booooring!
>
>If the immunity was genetic then it probably would. If it was learnt
>then it could be, depending on if the creatures taught the next
>generation,Kai norns, or left them to fend for themselves, any other
>norns,. Antidotes passed on in the mothers milk could be possible,
>but would probably be a bit harder.
It will be interesting to note how the diseases and the creatures will
force each other to evolve...
>>>Hard to do, but would make it much more realistic. We could then use
>>>this to keep the genetics much simpler, because most of it is no
>>>longer in the genetics file. You wouldn't need to tell the game that
>>>Oxygen forms Carbon Dioxide, because it's built in. I think that it
>>>should be fairly easy to change however, so that you can change the
>>>laws of chemistry if you want to try something different. Then you
>>>could make it so that you can have Oxygen and carbon never forming
>>>Carbon Dioxide, and see what the effects are.
>>
>>Yeah, that sounds cool.
>
>That's what I thought. I also thought that if you stuck all this
>information in a file, then you could easily change the
>chemistry/physics of the game and see what happens. If the file format
>was easy to understand, or better yet there was a program to edit the
>file, then it would be easy for people to edit it and thus change
>physics and see the results. The file could contain all the physical
>constants, and have the game engine rely on them, so that you can
>change gravity for example and watch the results. Just think, having
>gravity being repulsive and not attractive <eg>
Yeah, I like that idea, too. :`) I mean the idea of having a reconfigurable
file for that stuff
>><<hugs>>
><<<hugs back>>>
<giggle>
--
xOtix ~owner of 5 cheesepoints =`)
"Life is too short to spend it on things or people
we have no passion for..." -me.
Creatures Community Advocate, ERFNB, ERFSU, & SUA ;`)
Fine Artist, Graphic Artist, Sprite/Animation Artist, Cartoonist
My [C2] COBs: Fruit Basket vendor, Toy-B-Gone spray.
& Carolyn Horn's "Slink's Specials": http://www.jannart.on.ca
AGC FAQs Archivist/ "Jus' Gimme All Th' Creatures FAQs"
FOR << C1,C2,& AGC >> [C3 & CA in progress]
http://www.jannart.on.ca/allcfaqs.htm
<x0tix*AT*my-dejanews.com>
xOtix
Feb 2000 09:11:48p, strode proudly front and centre in alt.games.creatures
>x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid (xOtix) writes:
>
>> Do you mean to tell me that if actually use the program I paid M$
>> for (VB6), I'm not allowed to distribute (or sell) the things I
>> produce with it without their permission?
>
>I'm sure the license agreement with VB6 allows you to distribute and
>sell the programs you develop. No permission needed. At least one
>company used to stipulate in the license agreements that you may not
>use their product to make similar, competing products to their own
>product line so you might want to check that out although I don't
>think MS do that.
>
>Chris
Whew! thanks Chris! had me worried for a while there... ;`)
xOtix
01 Feb 2000 04:13:32p, strode proudly front and centre in
alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>
>Chris Double wrote in message ...
>>"John Ievins" <thegr...@thegrendel.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> I'm trying to say that CL said what they wanted the Norn genome to
>>> do, and then wrote the genetic code & scripts to do that... they
>>> didn't add anything else, which might otherwise have been used in
>>> evolution or gengineering.
>>
>>Ahh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I see your point.
>>
>
>
>that is one of the things that bothers me, the function follows form
>design of creatures as opposed to the natural form follows function. BTW
>i am going to compile all the different replies and ideas in this thread
>into one big post, what have i done, i feel a bit like doctor
>Frankenstein, who has awoken a monster. not really, it sort of makes me
>feel that the time is right. but i really cant claim leadership,
Well, it's nice you're not claiming it, but unfortunately --you're it. You
set the tone and the direction, the rest follows if the the time and idea
is right. Even Pandora (the original, not our 'Dora) eventually had to take
responsibility for opening the box... ;`) Just have fun with it, love.
>a bit
>of direction and if i can build my DNA to shape compiler it should work,
>i have an institive feel for morphology, its just a matter of turning it
>into a set of rules. plants first, insects are a problem(none of my
>rules work for them), but i already have some good ideas for
>vertebrates, and i have solved the internal organ problem, set
>instinctive and size, growth rate and malleability and let the different
>bits grow into each other filling the space available, now onto the
>cardio vascular system.
woohoo! Cool!
Chris Double
> Do you mean to tell me that if actually use the program I paid M$
> for (VB6), I'm not allowed to distribute (or sell) the things I
> produce with it without their permission?
I'm sure the license agreement with VB6 allows you to distribute and
sell the programs you develop. No permission needed. At least one
company used to stipulate in the license agreements that you may not
use their product to make similar, competing products to their own
product line so you might want to check that out although I don't
think MS do that.
chani3
"xOtix" <x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid> wrote in message
news:8EC8A0DD8f53...@207.126.101.100...
> cha...@home.com (chani3) <R6Nj4.33793$A5.5...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com> on
> Wed 26 Jan 2000 05:24:01p, strode proudly front and centre in
> alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
>
> >
> >>
> >> xOtix <x0ti...@ddy.its.invalid> wrote
> >> > Mon 24 Jan 2000 05:57:50p, strode proudly front and centre in
> >> > alt.games.creatures and with appropriate gusto proclaimed:
> >> >
Can
> >you
> >> > >> give me more info about it? I'd like to see if our library has it.
> >:`)
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >hrm... i live in canada... and i've heard of the eeevil bananas in
> >> > >pyjamas.... i even watched it a few times when i was really bored...
> >> > >::shudders::
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Oh, I see. a TV show is it? haven't owned a TV for over thirty
years..
> >>
> >> No, it isn't actually a TV show. It's a little kids rhyme.
> >
> >it is a tv show! i saw it several times... a really stupid tv show...
> >kinda like barney... ::shudders::
> >
> >
>
> Eeeewwwww!!! ;`) Even I've heard of that horror...
yah....
have you heard the parodies of the "i love you" song?
"i hate you, you hate me, let's gang up and kill barney..."
8*)
Theo Spears
> yah....
> have you heard the parodies of the "i love you" song?
> "i hate you, you hate me, let's gang up and kill barney..."
> 8*)
no, no, you've got it wrong, not that I like barney or anything (I've sene
the activmate, I know what they can do) but it should be
"I hate you, you hate me, so don't put that smilie..."
Theo Spears
just hyperactive
John Ievins
Sotek wrote
> > > > Do you mean compile in the technical term? A significantly large
> > > > engine could take awhile to compile, but even my limited programming
> > > > capacity tells me it's not THAT hard. Or are you referring to
> > > > actually coordinating the different parts?
> > >
> > > I think coordination of that people at the beginning of such a project
> > > would be a significant effort - unless a functioning (albeit
> > > bare-bones) engine already existed for people to contribute to.
> >
> > Yeah... basically, an engine is needed before any work can start. Any
> > C/Assembly coders care to speak up?
>
> I can do some C++... I think. :p
> <pnip stuff and sig>
Well, Soket & Graham, it looks like we'll be working with something else,
actually (please, Python, please!)... so it'll have to be a different
language... but Python (& Dylon/Lisp I expect) is really easy - I don't see
learning for many of the actual engine functions (chemicals etc) taking more
than a few days.
John Ievins
ant <dont...@evil.spam> wrote in message
news:VbNl4.16249$3b6....@ozemail.com.au...
>
> Chris Double wrote in message ...
> >"John Ievins" <thegr...@thegrendel.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> I'm trying to say that CL said what they wanted the Norn genome to
> >> do, and then wrote the genetic code & scripts to do that... they
> >> didn't add anything else, which might otherwise have been used in
> >> evolution or gengineering.
> >
> >Ahh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I see your point.
>
> that is one of the things that bothers me, the function follows form
design
> of creatures as opposed to the natural form follows function. BTW i am
> going to compile all the different replies and ideas in this thread into
> one big post, what have i done, i feel a bit like doctor Frankenstein, who
> has awoken a monster. not really, it sort of makes me feel that the time
is
> right. but i really cant claim leadership,
Someone has to, otherwise the team will fall apart, and you're the person
people are most likely to listen to... sorry.
> a bit of direction and if i can
> build my DNA to shape compiler it should work, i have an institive feel
for
> morphology, its just a matter of turning it into a set of rules. plants
> first, insects are a problem(none of my rules work for them), but i
already
> have some good ideas for vertebrates, and i have solved the internal organ
> problem, set instinctive and size, growth rate and malleability and let
the
> different bits grow into each other filling the space available, now onto
> the cardio vascular system.
Sounds nice, but I have my doubts about the usefulness.
Graham Cox
Gave forth this really invaluable piece of information:
<pnip>
>>>What about VB6?
>>
>>If we would be allowed to, by M$, then thats a good choice. The
>>problem is that I don't see M$ letting us use it for free. Something
>>like Chris suggested would be better, because their free for anyone to
>>get and use, and while being a bit obscure arn't all that hard to
>>learn from what I've seen.
>
>Do you mean to tell me that if actually use the program I paid M$ for
>(VB6), I'm not allowed to distribute (or sell) the things I produce with
>it without their permission? *urk!* Dylan here I come!
Hang on a sec. I read that as you saying to use VB as the scripting
language, in which case you wouldn't be allowed to do so because the
copyright belongs to M$. If you meant to write the scripting language
in VB then that would prolly be alright.
<pnip>
Theo Spears
> Hang on a sec. I read that as you saying to use VB as the scripting
> language, in which case you wouldn't be allowed to do so because the
> copyright belongs to M$. If you meant to write the scripting language
> in VB then that would prolly be alright.
I suppoe if you paid MS you could use VBA, they have a pack or something
that lets you build it into your app. I still say base the thing on quake
though
Theo Spears