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[PLUG] Cyberlife Interview about opinions of agc and Jr-Chat

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Ali (Alastair Maggs)

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
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Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with an
interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
what you think.

Enjoy :).
Ali

--
*** email a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk ***

*** Ali and Rich's Websites: http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
Home to:
Albia2000 (Voted officially the second favourite unofficial site in
Cyberlife's Golden Shee Award).
The Creatures Newbie Resource.
The Simpsons Website.
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Ali's Domain.
Cloud9 : self written songs.
Aqua-net-ic: Wannadies.
Park Life: Theme Park 2.
Ali and Rich's Online Store.

Ping

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
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Ali (Alastair Maggs) <a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:_e%n3.34$C4.14@wards...

> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
<snip>

No time, can I just have the jist of it, please? <g>

-Ping

http://www.creatureslife.net

Replace nospam with albia for a valid E-mail address

ICQ: 6283750

"He's dead Jim, you get his tricoder and I'll get his wallet!"

AntiNorn

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
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On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:25:15 +0100, "Ali (Alastair Maggs)"
<a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk> wrote:

>Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
>about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in

>JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with an
>interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
>what you think.
>
>Enjoy :).
>Ali

**Warning -- Long!**

Nice Article.. Totally biased, but well written..

I find it strange that you failed to comment on the positive things
many of listed in your "Community Talk" have said about C2 and/or
CL...

I won't mention what was said by others, I'm sure they'll want to
have their say in this thread later.. If you check back in AGC, or
ask about my attitude in Chat when C2 first came out you will find
that I was extremely pro-CL.. I was sick of hearing all the whining
about how hard C2 was, how the Norns weren't any good, etc.. That's
why I busted my ass developing some hardy C2 original genome Norns
through breeding alone.. On a nightly basis I would go off on some
sort of rant when 15+ newbies in a row would join chat whining about
how hard the thing was..

What led to my change in attitude? Slink's comments had a very big
impact.. CL's abandonment of AGC was another.. There were numerous
other, little things that were going on that slightly turned my
stomach; namely: this tidbit from your article: "Cyberlife released a
series of free patches and upgrades to fix the geonome and the
bugs within days of them being discovered."

I can't believe that you can sit there and say that with a straight
face.. C2 came out on Aug 27, 1998.. We didn't see any downloads
until mid Sep.. The first patch they release wasn't even useable
since it changed the language of the game to German! A later "free"
patch was made available until weeks after it had been placed in the
first life kit..

I won't go into the genome issue.. We all know what Slink said prior
to leaving the community..

As for bugs.. hmm, is the world-wrap bug fixed yet?

now for your table of promises and what we got:

1. Brand new Alibia, twice the size, etc..
yep, we sure got that, plus triple the system requirements.
you also failed to mention that CL told us they didn't include
night/day because that would double the world size again and make the
game almost unplayable sue to system constraints, yet C3 is yet again
"over twice the size of C2"

2. complete ecosystem with weather and seasons..
yep, got that also.. Of course due to some yet-to-be-fixed
timing bug, many players never seem to get past the first season of
the first year on their systems... The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
it is dependant on the other parts? If you delete every
weed/badcritter/etc,, from the world, nothing happens..

3. 500% more plants and animals
umm, is this before or after the players hand over money for
two add-ons?

4. more skin colors, facial expressions, tails
yeah, it sure is pretty, isn't it.

5. Import your C1 Norns
Import them, watch them lose all C1 genetic structure and
"personality"

6. All new applets
hehe, ok the applets are cool :)

7. rewritten user interface and easier interaction
you're right, it's not much different, but they could have at
least given us the option to switch between a graphical health bar and
one that show true percentages.

8. entire world evolves around you
no comment.. the LJR interview cleared that up, but that
doesn't help people who see the box sitting on a shelf in a store for
the very first time.

9. violent grendels
regardless of the fact that almost a year later, we finally
got them, CL had made the statement of more violent grendels prior to
C2 being release, and they were well aware of the fact that everyone
new this to be a lie in C1. The screen shots of the grendels in
pre-release pics made it even worse when we saw the finished product
out of the box..

10. seeding plants
yeah, they were nice, a bit annoying if you didn't keep an eye
on growth though..

11. learn how to talk
umm, what free add-on was it that allowed you to change the
words? the only update I'm aware of that allowed this was LK1(stone
of ancient knowledge) and it most certainly wasn't free.


On a final note: I find your personal attack on Matthew to be a bit
rude, especially since he's no longer even in the community to "fight
back"..

Tortured Norns - http://www.geocities.com/~antinorn

Paul Richardson

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
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Hi,

Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good or
bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will be
great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,
Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how this
game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
spot every small error. If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace. Give Cyberlife a chance and
I'm sure you wont be disappointed. Cyberlife delivered practically
everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a *free*
add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.* Cyberlife, like
any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment.
Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by
people's accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
and please think of people's feelings. :)

--

TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson

Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson

Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson


> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with
an
> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
> what you think.
>
> Enjoy :).
> Ali
>

Roy McQuaker

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to

Paul Richardson wrote in message ...

>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how this
>game will turn out.

To many cooks.......

>I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>spot every small error.

But some could have be caught by better testing

As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
mostly to come from last August/September.

Patrick Dixon

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
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Paul Richardson, who in another lifetime was ricar...@freeuk.com,
scrawled on the ancient halls of alt.games.creatures on the historical
date Thu 29 Jul 1999 11:20:01a, the following message, the ID of which
was <lX0o3.6529$V21.2...@nnrp3.clara.net>:

>Hi,
>
>Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good
>or bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will
>be great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,

>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
>but they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to

>how this game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults,
A _few_?!


>what game
>doesn't? With advanced games there are more things that could go wrong
>and nobody could spot every small error.

So, the wraparound bug, etc, were small errors?


>If you 'don't like C3' then
>don't buy it and please leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace.
>Give Cyberlife a chance and I'm sure you wont be disappointed.

::cue evil laughter::


>Cyberlife
>delivered practically everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't
>included came out as a *free* add-on. Not a program that you have to pay
>for but *FREE.*

How free was the executable upgrade until a month and a half after LK1 was
realised? There is, imho, no excuse for waiting any more than a week to put
it up.

>Cyberlife, like any company has to make a profit to pay
>their staff and to continue with their 2020 vision. No other company in
>the world works so hard with their community members to create games,
>add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment. Please remember that the
>people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by people's
>accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation and
>please think of people's feelings. :)

Well, I, for one, would like to see some _evidence_ that C3 is going to be
C1's superior; and not just some screenshots with a fake norn inserted.


--
PMN Breeder

Sig is under reconstruction.

Patrick Dixon

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to
Meh, you mispelt my name, but I can forgive you for that. However, you make
it sound like a day after C@ was released, all the bug-fixes were up for
d/l, which they weren't. And yes, CL might not have had much money for
manuals, but why couldn't they, for instance, include an Adobe version? Or
at least included more actual information! As it was, it was more of a
brochure than a manual. One more thing: I, and I'm sure quite a few other
people, would have preferred it if you'd actually interviewed us, instead
of just posting quotes. You could at least have asked permission to quote
us.

Ali (Alastair Maggs), who in another lifetime was
a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk, scrawled on the ancient halls of
alt.games.creatures on the historical date Thu 29 Jul 1999 09:25:15a, the
following message, the ID of which was <_e%n3.34$C4.14@wards>:

Mannkind

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to
Not that I count anymore, but I'd have to agree with what Ali has wrote.
A lot of you guys/gals are doggin' on C3 like you've played it and you _know_
what it is like. Why can't you give CL a break, they've made a few mistakes,
maybe, just maybe, they like most real people (unlike Bill Gates) and _learn_
from their mistakes. I think C3 will be great, and cannot wait for it to come
out. I for one am going to get it the day it comes out (if I have the money).
So why can't you guys stop criticizing CL, and just wait and see if they come
out with a good product or not. If it is bad, then you have a little right to
complain, but just wait and see. You and others around you will be much
happier.

Another useless post by The Deranged Mannkind

CAOS Scripts 60,400 --> 60,500

Generations http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk/dnorn/


Emily Sachs

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
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"Ali (Alastair Maggs)" wrote:
>
> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with an
> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
> what you think.

To go slightly off on a tangent -- AN pretty much covered CL's "promises", any
more would be anti-climatic, IMO -- I'll hit on something I've mentioned before
in agc, in JRChat, and even in an email to Toby.

I don't think CL cares much about the community, at least not as much as they
once did.

When I joined agc, oh so long ago, CL members posted frequently, and not always
completely on-topic. They acted like members of the community, though they were
treated with due respect -- C1 was a great game, and we were a newsgroup of
people in love with it. And life was good.

With the creation of the CDN, and the release of C2, the posts stopped for the
most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN newsgroups, leaving us fend for
ourselves, basically.

In an email Toby sent me, he extolled the CDN as proof of their concern for the
community. Not the entire community is in the CDN. Not the entire community
can benefit from the CDN. We're not all developers; we're not all even
interested in the more technical aspects of Creatures. Many people, myself
included, would like to just be able to enjoy a well programed game -- maybe
enhance our knowledge of Biology, evolution, etc. The CDN doesn't do anything
for me, though I am a member (technically, at least, though without that blasted
cookie I can't get into the CDN site). I don't think I'm alone in that, either.

The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with computer usage
-- need is of a far more basic nature than what Cyberlife tends to provide with
the CDN (not to mention the fact that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are
basically screwed). Why are people like Denise, Mae and and I writing FAQ's
about things that should be in the manual? The expense of printing a manual
acknowledged, I still don't see how they could've forgotten to mention some key
points, such as the need for a creature to activate power-ups, or what the
meaning of the "funky stars" are, much less how to help an unconscious norn --
these are things that had to be covered in FAQs, and were only learned by trail
and error.

What it seems to me is that Cyberlife only cares about users who can cover up
their mistakes by creating updates and cobs that shouldn't be necessary in the
first place. Heaven forbid they try to make said updates themselves -- no,
they're too busy creating more eye-candy cobs that don't help anything, and a
new game when they haven't even completed the ones they've got out. While I
understand that's most likely an unfair observation, it's one aggravated by CL's
apparent silence to agc more than it is helped. While I understand also that
agc isn't the sum of the online Creatures users, it *is* one of the main
components of it, and the community is based in focal points such as this
newsgroup and chats like JRChat (as a note, I've never seen CL members in chat
[besides
Dillon/Alize's pathetic impersonation attempts, that is]).

Also in the email from Toby I mentioned earlier, he said that Cyberlife
"couldn't" post to agc due to the undercurrent of animosity towards them (also,
IMHO, intensified more than relieved by their silence). I admit that there is.
Perhaps it's not completely justified, but there are many points to the
arguments against them. Despite what Ali has said, there are many promises that
weren't carried out by Cyberlife. There are many people who can't get what help
they need from their undernourished manual and equally skimpy help file (and
don't even start me on the forced IE install -- I'm still annoyed by that). The
truth is that if Cyberlife valued us more, as customers should be valued, we
wouldn't have such complaints, and we wouldn't have the provocation to create
such animosity.

Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as if not
acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with it without
expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but it must be used in a
timely fashion. A simple post here and there addressing common concerns would
do wonders for their image in the community, not to mention save them from
writing 10 responses where only one was needed. That they're perfectly willing
to do an interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see, is rather
inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.

Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll give up. ;)

> Enjoy :).
> Ali

--
Just a thought from: Emily Sachs | "When you come to the edge of all that
-> http://members.xoom.com/Emy/ | you know, you must believe one of
-> ICQ: 8980276 | two things; there will be earth
-> AIM: Emy Elis | upon which to stand, or you will be
-> Emy exmly scared, run kids. | given wings to fly."
-----------------------------------------------------
"There must be some mistake
I never meant to let
Them take away my soul.
Am I too old? Is it too late?"
~~Pink Floyd
"The Show Must Go On"

Lummox JR

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to
I suppose I have to toss in my three cents on this one, too. More like
a quarter and some loose change if you notice the length of the post.
The main thing I wanted to comment on was that you're wrong about CL
keeping all its promises. Two in particular they failed at:

1.) True sprite editing.
I broached this subject to Toby back in the days of C1, when it could
(more) easily have been done as a patch for that game. I specifically
asked him about it--twice, I believe--before C2 was coming out. (In his
initial response about C1, he had mentioned it was something they were
keeping in mind for C2 anyway, and this back when C2 was just a rumor.)
Each time I asked whether it would be in C2, the reply seemed to
indicate it would be. I look back now and, with hindsight, see the
response was a bit vascillating and misleading--but nevertheless it
implied that true sprite editing would indeed be possible. Given Toby's
earlier comments on the subject, the promise was implied.
Instead we were left with a cheesy compromise: Only breed editing would
be possible, but with twenty-six slots instead of ten. (Um... guys...
why not *thirty*-six, anyway?) I would have produced many a
sprite-edited Norn by now if it had been possible in C1, let alone in
C2.

2.) Expanded vocabulary.
Yes, this was a failure to deliver. In some ways they managed, but in
others they botched it so badly that they shouldn't have bothered in the
first place. While more object categories were made, some old (but
useful!) ones were removed. Worse yet, simple food got split into three
different competing categories, and within some of them (plant and
fruit) the behavior of individual objects wasn't consistent across
sub-types. I cite the "plant" of the hatchery mushrooms, which can be
eaten, vs. the "plant" of the tomato stem which does nothing but sit
there and uselessly attract the Norn's attention. Why call music objects
"toy", anyway?
And I feel like ranting again on their choice of words. "Implement", for
crying out loud? Sure, let's make that built-in to the game so that it
can't be changed until a (non-free) patch comes out several months
later.

Okay, enough hysterical ranting. Those are two points I felt compelled
to bring up.
As for the article itself, I liked the style but you can hardly claim to
have shown "both sides of the arguement" when your thesis statement
outright said that C3 would be a great game (that doesn't belong in your
thesis unless it's part of your main point), and that you wondered why
there was so much criticism of it (a clearly established bias on the
article from the beginning). As an article told from your own
perspective, it's well written. But it's not objective by a long shot.

And now, for my own reasons for distrusting the release of C3:

I liked C1 a lot. I thought C2, with as many improvements as Cyberlife
boasted, had a great deal of potential. So like many, I went along with
the hype and got really excited waiting through 1998 for the game to
appear. But toward fall, things got dicey.
The crux of the problem was that early user feedback was needed, just
like in any game, to identify bugs and weaknesses. But Mindscape, which
ran the "Early" Adoption Program, didn't choose people to involve until
a week after C2 had already been shipped. Worse yet, they selected
almost none of the people that Cyberlife guaranteed outright would have
an early copy of the game.
(Am I bitter that I wasn't part of the EAP? Heck yeah; I should have
been part of it in June, the very latest the EAP should have shipped. I
was promised no less by Cyberlife. And on an equally personal note, it
bothered me no end that Mindscape didn't have the decency to get my
site's URL right, much less to ever correct it.)

Anyway, when C2 arrived, despite the complete lack of an EAP and other
problems, people were excited--albeit concerned. By the time I got it,
about two or three weeks later, that excitement was already waning,
because people were beginning to see the result of Cyberlife having had
no one to beta test the game. The vocabulary had problems, the world had
that wraparound bug, the Norns couldn't survive well even with
supervision. Choose your complaint; I did.
C2 had a very lukewarm reception entirely because of those early
problems. It *did* improve, yes. Mostly that was the work of third-party
developers like Lis Morris, Mannkind, and myself, among many others--and
frankly I haven't done remotely as much for C2 as Lis has. I haven't
bought any of the Life Kits because I have about as much use for pretty
new COBs as I do for a running sore on my forearm; how about fixing the
bugs instead?
C2 is now a very good and playable game. But it didn't come out that
way, and it was because nobody was waiting to find out if there was
anything wrong. Space missions didn't get launched without exhaustive
testing; neither is it customary to ship a product that hasn't been
independently tested. Oops.

As to how this bears on C3, the answer is simple: The EXACT SAME PATTERN
of Cyberlife press releases and hype is taking place for C3. This
wouldn't be so bad, except that it fails to mention how C3 will be
making up for C2 and not falling into the same traps the last game did.
Cyberlife has *never* acknowledged that C2 ever had any of those
problems with its early release, and that acknowledgement should be in
every single C3 press release. (Yes, really.) Typically a company that
makes a mistake with a second game has the brains to figure out not to
make the same mistakes with a third, assuming the third is by that point
commercially viable; if indeed they've learned from C2, they need to
make that well-known to the public. C2's mistake was having no user
feedback before the big day. C3 appears to have made that mistake even
worse; rumor has it it even began development at the same time C2 did.
(It's the only reasonable explanation for the delay in patches and
upgrades, too; they were apparently so focused on C3 that fixing C2
wasn't a priority.)
I have yet to hear Cyberlife say something to the effect of, "Yes, we
know we made a mistake by allowing Mindscape to rush C2 out the door,
and we should have handled the EAP ourselves to ensure we had a good
product before we shipped." This statement *needs* to be at the
forefront of any press release about C3, to clear the air and to regain
trust.
But, perhaps the worst part about all this is that C3 was announced to
be ready only a year after C2's release. That announcement came while C2
was still mired in many of its original bugs and design flaws, and
everyone knew that C2 had come out too early. If that's what happens
when two years elapse following a *solid* program, what good could come
of releasing a sequel (or prequel, in this case) only one year after the
last one which had huge problems for the first six months of its
existence?

I don't much care about how people are saying Cyberlife abandoned a.g.c.
I agree with them, but then for the most part I abandoned a.g.c in 1998
too. What bothers me is that Cyberlife hasn't even addressed the simple
problems behind C2's too-early release, too-late testing, and C3
following so closely in its wake that you can almost hear the propellers
scrape the box. Without even acknowledging that simple fact, Cyberlife
guarantees bad reaction to C3 because people have no reason to take the
press releases at face value anymore.
I hear a lot about how Cyberife doesn't care about the community; you
can take any side you like on that one. I think for their part they do
care, but they don't involve themselves nearly enough to show it.
Personally I'd settle for just a straight answer: When C2 started
generating complaints, how come Cyberlife didn't move faster to fix
them? And when those complaints stacked up, why wasn't C3 pushed back a
few months (at least!) to re-examine the concept?

Lummox JR

Ali (Alastair Maggs)

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to
To follow up, I'm really sorry about any upset caused by the choice of my
quotes or whatever. I intend to rewrite the article, and would apreciate
some more comments from people here that I could use. Would it be possible
to use posts from this thread (with the author's permission?)?.

Thanks.
Ali

*** Ali and Rich's Websites: http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ***


Home to:
Albia2000 (Voted officially the second favourite unofficial site in
Cyberlife's Golden Shee Award).
The Creatures Newbie Resource.
The Simpsons Website.
Jollificational Lightning Seeds.
Ali's Domain.
Cloud9 : self written songs.
Aqua-net-ic: Wannadies.
Park Life: Theme Park 2.
Ali and Rich's Online Store.

Ali (Alastair Maggs) <a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:_e%n3.34$C4.14@wards...


> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with
an
> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
> what you think.
>

> Enjoy :).
> Ali
>
> --
> *** email a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
>

Emily Sachs

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to

"Ali (Alastair Maggs)" wrote:
>
> To follow up, I'm really sorry about any upset caused by the choice of my
> quotes or whatever. I intend to rewrite the article, and would apreciate
> some more comments from people here that I could use. Would it be possible
> to use posts from this thread (with the author's permission?)?.

You should probably email seperately for permission, as a rule of thumb. Many
may not notice this post :)

> Thanks.

Indigo

unread,
Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to
On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:20:01 GMT, "Paul Richardson"
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views.

Not exactly sure what qualifies as "anti-C3" these days, but I don't
think a third version of a product should even be in consideration
when there are still major problems with the second version. (Can you
say "world-wrap-bug"?? Knew you could...)

> How can you say how good or
>bad a game is from a few screenshots.

Exactly. How are screenshots with fake "pop-in" norns supposed to tell
us anything?? Nice eye-candy. Oh, sorta like C2... (Can you say deja
vu boys and girls?? Knew you could...)

> People who liked C2 say C3 will be
>great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish.

Wrong.
The anticipation for C2 was huge. C1 was awesome, so C2 was expected
to be twice as awesome. The C1 norns were great. The C1 world was
great. C2 came out... and... well... perhaps our expectations were too
high. I refuse to get my hopes up for C3, especially if it's just more
eye candy and less intelligent norns with a bigger vocabulary. I won't
be buying C3 right away, mainly because I have other stuff to buy
before I decide to buy a new CPU. (I have a P 200 MMX with 128mb ram.
Oddly, C2 lags. C3's sys req is a P 200, so I'm guessing I'll need a
PII 400 which I can't afford, at the moment).

> In the article,
>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>they now have 'FIVE' people.

More isn't always better...
I would very much like to be proven wrong in this case...

>Surely, that is some indication as to how this

>game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't?

True enough.
However, shouldn't those faults be fixed before the next version of
the game comes out?? Rather, shouldn't those faults be fixed before
the next version of the game even goes into consideration????

> With
>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>spot every small error.

But with OUTSIDE beta testing, more errors are spotted, especially
ones that ARE NOT small. If you re-read Ali's article, CL more than
slightly avoided the question about C2 being tested enough. There was
a C2 EAP, which was supposed to be the outside testing. And those of
us that were involved got our cd's AFTER the game was released. EAP my
foot. 2-3 weeks after C2 came out, some EAP-ers STILL hadn't gotten
their stuff.

>If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
>leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace. Give Cyberlife a chance and
>I'm sure you wont be disappointed.

I was disappointed in C2.
It looked great. It sounded great.
I'm not gonna let the same thing happen with C3. I'm not gonna rave
about how wonderful it sounds only to have it get here buggy,
untested, and slow as heck. I don't know if I'll like C3 or not. I'm
not gonna bother getting my hopes up. I'll buy it eventually, when I
have the hard drive space and the CPU to do so.

>Cyberlife delivered practically
>everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a *free*
>add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.*

Um, excuse me??
Isn't there a problem when the best norns around are made by THIRD
PARTY DEVELOPERS??

>Cyberlife, like
>any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
>their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
>community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment.

Hmmmm...
That seems to be a rather broad assumption... I will agree that they
*used* to work hard with their community members, but as many have
noticed in the past, they no longer post here. Unless you count
members of the CDN, but I'm not a developer, so I guess if the CDN is
the actual community, I'm on the outside.

>Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by
>people's accusations.

Hurt by accusations?? Well, I guess that makes sense. The truth hurts.
More oft than not...

>Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
>and please think of people's feelings. :)

Care to borrow a mirror??

Grah.
Indigo

*+*+*+*+*+*
"I never think of the future, it comes soon enough."
-- Albert Einstein
"Eve and guys about castration know."
-- Eve of JRchat
*+*+*+*+*+*
Miranda's Starbucks. Because Indigo recommends it.
*+*+*+*+*+*
Indigo, AGC goo extraordinaire.
High Priestess to the AGC Goddess of the Shee.
ICQ: 1530587
Website: Yeah, someday.
*+*+*+*+*+*

NORNGod

unread,
Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99
to
Mannkind wrote:
>
> >Phooey, of course you count!!
>
> Doh! Your right! ::counts... 1, 2 ,3 ...::
>
> >Actually, I see people trying not to get too excited or overzealous
> >about "how great" the game might be like they did about C2 and were
> >disappointed.
>
> I too see that, but I also see people putting the game down, yes, C2 was a
> little disapointing, but you can't put down a game thats not even out yet. Its
> kinda (kinda) like saying thay just because your second piece of art wasn't as
> good as your first, that your third (or next) piece of art isn't going to be
> good at all.
>
> >We'll just have to wait till C3 comes out and see if they've
> >"redeemed" themselves.
>
> Yes, basicly that is all we _can_ do, except for all the complaining. :)
>
> >I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be
> >for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.
>
> I have a P233 and C2 runs great :) Not that my machine hasn't been tweaked by
> yourstruely, but ;)
>

Would you mind telling me what you 'tweaked'? Even on a P2 350mhz with
128 megs of RAM, my world can almost slow to a crawl at certain points.
Anything you did to help your system would be certainly welcome on this
end. :)
--
NORNGod - nor...@fast.net
--------------------------
Visit NORNGod's NORNMania!
http://www.norngod.com
--
But since that isn't working
at the moment, try:
http://206.208.47.82

Indigo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
On 29 Jul 1999 20:08:41 GMT, mann...@aol.com.2.Sweet (Mannkind)
wrote:

>Not that I count anymore, but I'd have to agree with what Ali has wrote.

Phooey, of course you count!! (Not saying I entirely agree with what
Ali wrote, buuuuut, you do still count. <g>)



>A lot of you guys/gals are doggin' on C3 like you've played it and you _know_
>what it is like.

Actually, I see people trying not to get too excited or overzealous


about "how great" the game might be like they did about C2 and were
disappointed.

>Why can't you give CL a break, they've made a few mistakes,


>maybe, just maybe, they like most real people (unlike Bill Gates) and _learn_
>from their mistakes.

We'll just have to wait till C3 comes out and see if they've
"redeemed" themselves.


I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be
for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.

>I think C3 will be great, and cannot wait for it to come


>out. I for one am going to get it the day it comes out (if I have the money).
>So why can't you guys stop criticizing CL, and just wait and see if they come
>out with a good product or not. If it is bad, then you have a little right to
>complain, but just wait and see. You and others around you will be much
>happier.

I'd rather be happily surprised that something is better than expected
than disappointed that something is even worse than before. I'm still
annoyed that there is a C3 even being worked on when there's so much
more that can be done in C2.

But maybe I'm just weird.

Mannkind

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
>Phooey, of course you count!!

Doh! Your right! ::counts... 1, 2 ,3 ...::

>Actually, I see people trying not to get too excited or overzealous


>about "how great" the game might be like they did about C2 and were
>disappointed.

I too see that, but I also see people putting the game down, yes, C2 was a


little disapointing, but you can't put down a game thats not even out yet. Its
kinda (kinda) like saying thay just because your second piece of art wasn't as
good as your first, that your third (or next) piece of art isn't going to be
good at all.

>We'll just have to wait till C3 comes out and see if they've
>"redeemed" themselves.

Yes, basicly that is all we _can_ do, except for all the complaining. :)

>I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be


>for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.

I have a P233 and C2 runs great :) Not that my machine hasn't been tweaked by
yourstruely, but ;)

>But maybe I'm just weird

No buts about it ;) Then again, it is said we share a brain... :)

Paul Richardson

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
> **Warning -- Long!**
>
> Nice Article.. Totally biased, but well written..

Not really. It was slightly biased but did have different views.

> What led to my change in attitude? Slink's comments had a very big
> impact..

What comments? I admit that I wasn't here to see them but I know a basic
idea of what happened between her and Cyberlife.

>CL's abandonment of AGC was another.

CL hasn't abandoned AGC. They post more in the CDN Newsgroups becuase they
are more pest free etc but they still patrol this newsgroup and reply to a
few messages.

> There were numerous
> other, little things that were going on that slightly turned my
> stomach; namely: this tidbit from your article: "Cyberlife released a
> series of free patches and upgrades to fix the geonome and the
> bugs within days of them being discovered."
> I can't believe that you can sit there and say that with a straight

> face.. C2 came out on Aug 27, 1998.. We didn't see any downloads
> until mid Sep..

So what? The point is, is that they were actually released. At least
Cyberlife didn't sweep it all under the floorboards. Cyberlife took the time
to release a free addon as soon as they could and as far as I know, they
were under no obligation to do so.


>The first patch they release wasn't even useable
> since it changed the language of the game to German!

Well,..... I like german!

> I won't go into the genome issue.. We all know what Slink said prior
> to leaving the community..

The genome thing with Slink and Cyberlife will only fully be know between
Slink and CL. Anything else is speculation!

> As for bugs.. hmm, is the world-wrap bug fixed yet?

No but many other major bugs have been.

>
> 1. Brand new Alibia, twice the size, etc..
> yep, we sure got that, plus triple the system requirements.
> you also failed to mention that CL told us they didn't include
> night/day because that would double the world size again and make the
> game almost unplayable sue to system constraints, yet C3 is yet again
> "over twice the size of C2"

Cyberlife did include night/day but they didn't include the graphics because
it would take up far too much space and wouldn't have suited system
requirements of that time. C3 will be bigger because PC's are better and
faster. You are saying that it is Cyberlife's fault it has to comply with
average system specs

> 2. complete ecosystem with weather and seasons..
> yep, got that also.. Of course due to some yet-to-be-fixed
> timing bug, many players never seem to get past the first season of
> the first year on their systems... The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
> correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
> it is dependant on the other parts? If you delete every
> weed/badcritter/etc,, from the world, nothing happens..

If you delete all the plants then certain animals will die. If you delete
all the animals then certain plants will die. That is the ecosystem in C2.

> 3. 500% more plants and animals
> umm, is this before or after the players hand over money for
> two add-ons?

Before. The Cyberlife Like Kits are good quality, with great gadgets and
norns etc. Most addons cost £20.00 but Cyberlife addons are usually only
half the price!

> 5. Import your C1 Norns
> Import them, watch them lose all C1 genetic structure and
> "personality"

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't C1 Genetics but uncompatable with C2
Genetics?

> 6. All new applets
> hehe, ok the applets are cool :)

At least we are all agreed on this! :)


> 7. rewritten user interface and easier interaction
> you're right, it's not much different, but they could have at
> least given us the option to switch between a graphical health bar and
> one that show true percentages.

Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask for
it.

> 9. violent grendels
> regardless of the fact that almost a year later, we finally
> got them, CL had made the statement of more violent grendels prior to
> C2 being release, and they were well aware of the fact that everyone
> new this to be a lie in C1. The screen shots of the grendels in
> pre-release pics made it even worse when we saw the finished product
> out of the box..

I agree with that but remember that Cyberlife did release them eventaully
while they are busy making C3. AND they are *free*.

TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/

Paul Richardson

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

> >Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views.
>
> Not exactly sure what qualifies as "anti-C3" these days, but I don't
> think a third version of a product should even be in consideration
> when there are still major problems with the second version. (Can you
> say "world-wrap-bug"?? Knew you could...)

What is the world wrap bug? I honestly have no idea what it is! As to your
arguement, C3 should still be released even though their are a few faults
with C2. Cyberlife have tried over and over again to try and fix C2 through
patches, addons etc. C3 will be what C2 was 'meant to be' only much better.

>
> > How can you say how good or
> >bad a game is from a few screenshots.
>
> Exactly. How are screenshots with fake "pop-in" norns supposed to tell
> us anything?? Nice eye-candy. Oh, sorta like C2... (Can you say deja
> vu boys and girls?? Knew you could...)

Those 'fake pop-in' norns are there so that we don't discover what the new
norns truly look like. If we found out, it would be like sneaking downstairs
on christmas eve and opening your gifts a day early! It is meant to be a
surprise what they look like. Give Cyberlife a bit a credit for this!

> > In the article,
> >Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
but
> >they now have 'FIVE' people.
>
> More isn't always better...
> I would very much like to be proven wrong in this case...

In certain cases more is better. More people would spot more mistakes. More
people could creae more different areas of the brain. More people would help
make it more detailed instead of having one person take three months.

>
> >Surely, that is some indication as to how this
> >game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't?
>
> True enough.
> However, shouldn't those faults be fixed before the next version of
> the game comes out?? Rather, shouldn't those faults be fixed before
> the next version of the game even goes into consideration????

Cyberlife have tried over and over to fix those faults with patches. Now
they are moving on the create something better.

>
> >Cyberlife delivered practically
> >everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a
*free*
> >add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.*
>
> Um, excuse me??
> Isn't there a problem when the best norns around are made by THIRD
> PARTY DEVELOPERS??

Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
figures like that!


>
> >Cyberlife, like
> >any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
> >their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
> >community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their
enjoyment.
>
> Hmmmm...
> That seems to be a rather broad assumption... I will agree that they
> *used* to work hard with their community members, but as many have
> noticed in the past, they no longer post here. Unless you count
> members of the CDN, but I'm not a developer, so I guess if the CDN is
> the actual community, I'm on the outside.


They may no longer post here but they still read messages and they still
reply to them! I bet they are reading this debate right now! They still
work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help with the Boney
Grendels and they created the CDN which is a ***FREE*** service especially
for third party people. I can think of many companys which would make you
pay for the CDN but Cyberlife give it free as a service to us.

>
> >Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt
by
> >people's accusations.
>
> Hurt by accusations?? Well, I guess that makes sense. The truth hurts.
> More oft than not...

Yes, the truth hurts but what hurts more is accusation after
accusationsafter accusation and that is just not fair to the Cyberlife team.

>
> >Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
> >and please think of people's feelings. :)
>
> Care to borrow a mirror??

OK.
:::Drops mirror::::
D'Oh!

>
> Grah.

Paul Richardson

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Emily Sachs <emy-...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:37A0C84E...@mediaone.net...

>
> I don't think CL cares much about the community, at least not as much as
they
> once did.
>
> When I joined agc, oh so long ago, CL members posted frequently, and not
always
> completely on-topic. They acted like members of the community, though they
were
> treated with due respect -- C1 was a great game, and we were a newsgroup
of
> people in love with it. And life was good.

Just because they don't post in a.g.c doesn't meant they aren't still here.


> With the creation of the CDN, and the release of C2, the posts stopped for
the
> most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN newsgroups, leaving us fend for
> ourselves, basically.

Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the Off-Topic,
Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their newsgroups
more?


> In an email Toby sent me, he extolled the CDN as proof of their concern
for the
> community. Not the entire community is in the CDN. Not the entire
community
> can benefit from the CDN. We're not all developers; we're not all even
> interested in the more technical aspects of Creatures. Many people,
myself
> included, would like to just be able to enjoy a well programed game --
maybe
> enhance our knowledge of Biology, evolution, etc. The CDN doesn't do
anything
> for me, though I am a member (technically, at least, though without that
blasted
> cookie I can't get into the CDN site). I don't think I'm alone in that,
either.

OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me. I
myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has helped a
lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily charge
money for it.

> The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with computer
usage
> -- need is of a far more basic nature than what Cyberlife tends to provide
with
> the CDN (not to mention the fact that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are
> basically screwed).

If you aren't on the internedt then you're screwed anyway! :)

> Why are people like Denise, Mae and and I writing FAQ's
> about things that should be in the manual? The expense of printing a
manual
> acknowledged, I still don't see how they could've forgotten to mention
some key
> points, such as the need for a creature to activate power-ups, or what the
> meaning of the "funky stars" are, much less how to help an unconscious
norn --
> these are things that had to be covered in FAQs, and were only learned by
trail
> and error.

Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail! They are a
small company who can't afford a huge manual. I admit it could have been a
bit better but what you would like could ruin Cyberlife!


> What it seems to me is that Cyberlife only cares about users who can cover
up
> their mistakes by creating updates and cobs that shouldn't be necessary in
the
> first place. Heaven forbid they try to make said updates themselves --
no,
> they're too busy creating more eye-candy cobs that don't help anything,
and a
> new game when they haven't even completed the ones they've got out. While
I
> understand that's most likely an unfair observation, it's one aggravated
by CL's
> apparent silence to agc more than it is helped. While I understand also
that
> agc isn't the sum of the online Creatures users, it *is* one of the main
> components of it, and the community is based in focal points such as this
> newsgroup and chats like JRChat (as a note, I've never seen CL members in
chat
> [besides
> Dillon/Alize's pathetic impersonation attempts, that is]).

Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or in
the LKs which they don't have to. They are trying to do the best they can
in a bad situation. So what if Cyberlife don't post here? I just don't get
it. If a company doesn't post in a newsgroup it doesn't mean they have
abandoned it.


>
> Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as if not
> acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with it without
> expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but it must be used
in a
> timely fashion. A simple post here and there addressing common concerns
would
> do wonders for their image in the community, not to mention save them from
> writing 10 responses where only one was needed. That they're perfectly
willing
> to do an interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
> something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see, is
rather
> inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.

Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address thier
concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other people
complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk to one person
with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!

> Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll give up.
;)

Phew!!!
:::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::


--

TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson

Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson

Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson

>

Noigea

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
>Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask for
>it.

I agree completely. CL is still coming to acg? if so, why don't we tell them
what we want instead of bemoaning our lack of having it now.

>>The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
>> correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
>> it is dependant on the other parts?

i was thinking about maybe cobbling up some cobs that work in a system, but
quit before I started. It was difficult to even think about how the system
would work. so cut them a break, they did a pretty good job with the plants
and ants.

hey CL, why aren't you defending yourself here? your silence is disturbing.

Emily Sachs

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Paul Richardson wrote:
>
> Just because they don't post in a.g.c doesn't meant they aren't still here.

I understand that. I said the equivalent later in the post.

> Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the Off-Topic,
> Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their newsgroups
> more?

So you presume to know Cyberlife's motivation? Not even I did that, and I've
gotten an email from Toby trying to explain one reason.

> OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me.

Are you the perfect "every user"? Can what benefits you benefit all? I didn't
think so...

> I
> myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has helped a
> lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily charge
> money for it.

Oh, great. They ignore most of the community, but it's "OK" because they do it
for free. ;)

> If you aren't on the internedt then you're screwed anyway! :)

People *should* be able to get said updates off the net. People *should* be
able to use the game out of the box without the updates. Etc, etc.

> Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
> here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail!

Yes, but some of the FAQ's are about: Unconscious norns, activating powerups,
using the splicer, what to do with Creatures related files, getting norns to eat
and sleep, etc. These AREN'T "tiny details", these can make the difference
between enjoying C2 and having a brand new coaster.

> They are a
> small company who can't afford a huge manual. I admit it could have been a
> bit better but what you would like could ruin Cyberlife!

What I would like is sometihng that worked a little less in hyped up lies and
more in *useful* info...
"Norns live about 10 hours and reach adolescence after about 1.5 hours..."
should have been more along the lines of, "Norns live about 3 hours, only if you
can keep them from running off cliffs and starving to death in the first five
minutes of life. Breeding? Good luck!"
"Concepts such as look, eat and hit can be taught using the learning machine
computer. Words for feelings, such as hungry, lonely and scared can be taught
using the second computer..." should have been more like "The learning computers
will teach them words, if you have the patience to be able to keep them from the
walls for the ten minutes it takes them to learn at each computer. And let's
not forget the cumbersome words like "implement", "mediabox", and "medicines",
and the ever-popular "friendly"."
"Albia is a wonderful exciting world, but it also contains dangers. From the
vicious Grendel lurking near the swamps, to the irritable bees that have a habit
of stinging passing norns." should be "Albia is a beautiful world, but it also
contains dangers. From the evil walls which norns will repeatedly run into, to
the Grendels that will sit around an let the norns beat them up because they're
sick from spending their entire life in the volcano."

The gene splicer is mentioned once. The "stars" weren't mentioned at all. Cobs
and the like were mentioned in passing, though their use was not described, or
mentioned. These are things *I* spent time writing FAQ's on, that they
should've bothered covering in the manual.

Also, it occurs to me that the manuals should be printed up by Mindscape rather
than Cyberlife. And they did release a "manual", that is, if you are willing to
pay the $20(?) to buy Toby's book and learn what they should've already told
you.

> Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or in
> the LKs which they don't have to.

Yes, they *do* have to. Though I think it'd probably have been easier on them
if they made a usable game in the first place.

If CL cares so much, how come all of the most useful cobs, utilities, and
genomes were made by third party developers? How come they waited months to
release an update that they promised would be free -- that shouldn't have been
needed anyway? To make more money on the Life Kit; to frustrate people enough
with the language bugs they'd created to make them dish out MORE money for a
bunch of eye-candy cobs.

> They are trying to do the best they can
> in a bad situation. So what if Cyberlife don't post here? I just don't get
> it. If a company doesn't post in a newsgroup it doesn't mean they have
> abandoned it.

This entire post was not about CL not posting here -- it was more about their
general lack of regard for the community in it's entirety.

> Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address thier
> concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other people
> complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk to one person
> with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!

Because for every person who says what they think in a post, there are 5 others
who think the same but are afraid to ask.

> Phew!!!
> :::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::

Why are you tired? I wasn't aware spouting propaganda was so thought consuming.

PS - EDIT!

ant

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Roy McQuaker wrote in message <7nq81c$hak$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...

>
>Paul Richardson wrote in message ...
>>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>>they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how

this
>>game will turn out.
>
>To many cooks.......
>
>>I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With

>>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>>spot every small error.
>
>But some could have be caught by better testing
>
>As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
>unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
>mostly to come from last August/September.
>
>
>

i for one would have liked to be able to read the original article before
Ali took it down for revision, by the time his plug appeared over here it
had already been removed form his page.....<grumble, mutter, plastic
history...>

ant

James Grant, Executive Director of UNICEF, credits Nestlé's
marketing practices with well over a million deaths a year.


Paul Richardson

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Roy McQuaker <Mad...@mad-fish.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7nq81c$hak$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> >Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
but
> >they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how
this
> >game will turn out.
>
> To many cooks.......

.......make what I hope is a very detailed game!

>
> >I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
> >advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
> >spot every small error.
>
> But some could have be caught by better testing

I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different things
that could go wrong because games nowadays are far more detailed and
advanced.

>
> As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
> unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
> mostly to come from last August/September.

It was slightly biased in my opinion. What scares me is that Ali actually
took the time to find those quotes!!! 3:-)

Paul Richardson

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Dixon <cdi...@7cities.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.games.creatures
Sent: 29 July 1999 07:25
Subject: Re: [PLUG] Cyberlife Interview about opinions of agc and Jr-Chat

> >Hi,
> >
> >Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good
> >or bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will
> >be great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,


> >Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
> >but they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to

> >how this game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults,

> A _few_?!

Compared with many other advanced games titles, eg Tomb Raider 3, there are
few. There are so many possilbe things that could go wrong in the Creatures
game. A CAOS script written incorrectly, a faulty sprite, I think it is
amazing that Creatures 2 didn't have more bugs considering how advanced it
is.

> >what game
> >doesn't? With advanced games there are more things that could go wrong
> >and nobody could spot every small error.

> So, the wraparound bug, etc, were small errors?

No. But imagine how many other faults there may have been if Cyberlife had
not tested C2. It isn't their fault that they did not spot every single
mistake, even big mistakes can find their way through the testing process.

> >If you 'don't like C3' then
> >don't buy it and please leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace.
> >Give Cyberlife a chance and I'm sure you wont be disappointed.

> ::cue evil laughter::

I don't see what's so funny about it. I trust Cyberlife to make a great game
out of C3 and I don't know why some people play Creatures if they are so
very critical of it. Play Dogz or Catz if you want an AI game without bugs
but without depth.

> >Cyberlife
> >delivered practically everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't
> >included came out as a *free* add-on. Not a program that you have to pay
> >for but *FREE.*

> How free was the executable upgrade until a month and a half after LK1 was


> realised? There is, imho, no excuse for waiting any more than a week to
put
> it up.

The fact is, is that Cyberlife made the upgrade and that it was posted for
free, not how long it took to be released.

> >Cyberlife, like any company has to make a profit to pay
> >their staff and to continue with their 2020 vision. No other company in
> >the world works so hard with their community members to create games,

> >add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment. Please remember that the


> >people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by people's

> >accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation and


> >please think of people's feelings. :)

> Well, I, for one, would like to see some _evidence_ that C3 is going to be


> C1's superior; and not just some screenshots with a fake norn inserted.

The fake norn is there so we don't know what the new norns will look like.
It is there so it doesn't spoil the surprise. Give Cyberlife some credit
instead of attacking them for wanting to keep everyone excited! If you look
at the screenshots you'll see
that C3 will be graphically amazing but also it will have a much better
ecology. As for the Creatures in it, we'll just have to wait. I really don't
see everyone's problem with the fake norn. It's not like Cyberlife are
trying to trick us because it would be one hell of a bad trick! Think
logically, and you'll see that they want to keep us all excited.

--

TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson

Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson

Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson

> --

ant

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Emily Sachs wrote in message <37A0C84E...@mediaone.net>...

>
>
>"Ali (Alastair Maggs)" wrote:
>>
>> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long
article
>> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
>> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with
an
>> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me
know
>> what you think.
>
>To go slightly off on a tangent -- AN pretty much covered CL's "promises",
any
>more would be anti-climatic, IMO -- I'll hit on something I've mentioned
before
>in agc, in JRChat, and even in an email to Toby.
>
<snip stuff i am not replying to>

>Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as if not
>acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with it without
>expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but it must be used in
a
>timely fashion. A simple post here and there addressing common concerns
would
>do wonders for their image in the community, not to mention save them from
>writing 10 responses where only one was needed. That they're perfectly
willing
>to do an interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
>something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see, is rather
>inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.
>

replying by email only means that people like me who like to be asked for my
email address, as my reply to and sender fields are fully spamblocked to
stop unsolicited emails, are also excluded from the feedback from the
cyberlife team. BTW anyone who wants my email address just has to ask in the
newsgroup.


>Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll give up. ;)


having mindscape as their distributor does not help with their public image
at all, i still cant find a copy of C1 in Australia, even in the second hand
game shops, i doubt more then a few hundred copys ever made it to Australia
as mindscape Australia denied knowledge of the game back in august last
year, and the retailers i spoke to who knew of it had not been able to
re-order it from mindscape when the samples they were sent ran out. after
explaining my problem to cyberlife in an email their only suggestion was for
me to buy it online from America, which i can't do because i don't have a
credit card (even if i did i would not use it over the web because we are
only allowed weak ssl encryption in Australia, the encryption is so weakened
my computer could crack it in a few hours), so no life kits for me either.

i might have to get my dad to get a questionable copy of c1 from HK next
time he is there, he said he has seen it for as little as A$5, but its
origin is questionable, but if it installs and runs on his laptop i dont
really care as i have tried the legitimate options and have had no luck.


ant

Indigo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:05:19 GMT, "Paul Richardson"
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>What is the world wrap bug? I honestly have no idea what it is!

Where the world "seams" together. The norns start going towards it and
start going the other way. You probably don't know what it is 'cause
the world's too big and your norns haven't even been over there yet.
Another one of my C2 pet peeves... and C3's supposed to be even
bigger. Oh joy...

>As to your
>arguement, C3 should still be released even though their are a few faults
>with C2. Cyberlife have tried over and over again to try and fix C2 through
>patches, addons etc. C3 will be what C2 was 'meant to be' only much better.

"Have tried"???
I have not even seen them attempt to fix the world wrap bug.

And isn't it more than slightly disturbing that the best norns and
cobs around are 3rd party??

If C3 is what C2 was meant to be... I await my free upgrade to C3.

>Those 'fake pop-in' norns are there so that we don't discover what the new
>norns truly look like. If we found out, it would be like sneaking downstairs
>on christmas eve and opening your gifts a day early! It is meant to be a
>surprise what they look like. Give Cyberlife a bit a credit for this!

Oh please...
Why bother releasing screenshots at all then??
Or system requirements??
Or any info at all??

>In certain cases more is better. More people would spot more mistakes. More
>people could creae more different areas of the brain. More people would help
>make it more detailed instead of having one person take three months.

More people OUTSIDE the company would spot more mistakes. Anyone who's
ever designed a website knows this. The usability of it needs to be
centered around people who know nill about
designing/creating/developing it.

If C3 is supposed to be coming out in November, the outside beta
testing should begin ASAP. 3 months of beta testing seems good to me.
Think it'll happen?? Well, I'm not holding my breath...

>Cyberlife have tried over and over to fix those faults with patches. Now
>they are moving on the create something better.

Uh.... it's their game. They made it. The bugs should be fixed BEFORE
another game costing another $40 gets started. And they shouldn't
depend on third party developers to fix the bugs for them, either.

>Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
>Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
>figures like that!

I've not seen 1300 people working on norn genomes.
Lis and LJR have the best out there so far. Third party. That's TWO
people. TWO. So then 100 cyberlife employees to 2 third party
developers?!!?!! Ouch. Not saying much.

>They may no longer post here but they still read messages and they still
>reply to them! I bet they are reading this debate right now! They still
>work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help with the Boney
>Grendels and they created the CDN which is a ***FREE*** service especially
>for third party people. I can think of many companys which would make you
>pay for the CDN but Cyberlife give it free as a service to us.

CDN is free, yes. HOWEVER. It only benefits DEVELOPERS. I am NOT a
developer, neither are most of the people on this newsgroup.
Therefore, I use this newsgroup and am not a part of the CDN and do
not really care that the CDN is free.

And to inform you... I have never seen a gaming "community" have
something like the CDN where they have to pay for it. Most of what's
developed is done 100% third party. Okay. So. Great. CL supports
developers. I'm not one and have too much time on my hands to become
one just so I know that the company that makes a game I play cares
about me.

CL reads this. Yes. Emy's established that fact. They do not, however,
post here and haven't since, oh gee, about the time C2 came out...

>Yes, the truth hurts but what hurts more is accusation after
>accusationsafter accusation and that is just not fair to the Cyberlife team.

Oh, and I'm sure that paying $50 for a game that was supposed to be
what the previous version was meant to be is very fair. Great logic,
there. The truth may hurt, but they've got our money. Poor them.

Emily Sachs

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

ant wrote:
>
> <snip a whole lotta junk :)>


>
> BTW anyone who wants my email address just has to ask in the
> newsgroup.

Heh, can I have your email address? There's something I'd like to send you...
;)

> ant

Indigo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:50:00 GMT, "Paul Richardson"
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:

>> To many cooks.......
>.......make what I hope is a very detailed game!

Try:
"Too many cooks spoil the broth."

>> But some could have be caught by better testing
>I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different things
>that could go wrong because games nowadays are far more detailed and
>advanced.

Many of which can be caught by outside beta testing. Could you imagine
what more of a mess Windows would be if they just did in-house
testing??

>> As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
>> unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
>> mostly to come from last August/September.
>It was slightly biased in my opinion. What scares me is that Ali actually
>took the time to find those quotes!!! 3:-)

Slightly biased?? ::snickers::

Paul Richardson

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Noigea <noi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990730031652...@ng-fa1.aol.com...

>
>Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask
for
> >it.
>
> I agree completely. CL is still coming to acg? if so, why don't we tell
them
> what we want instead of bemoaning our lack of having it now.

CL still reads a.g.c

>
> >>The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
> >> correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
> >> it is dependant on the other parts?
>
> i was thinking about maybe cobbling up some cobs that work in a system,
but
> quit before I started. It was difficult to even think about how the
system
> would work. so cut them a break, they did a pretty good job with the
plants
> and ants.

Nicely said. I would like to see some anti-CL'ers try and make an ecosystem
for C2.


> hey CL, why aren't you defending yourself here? your silence is
disturbing.

They are letting us defend them! :-)

Paul Richardson

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Emily Sachs <emy-...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:37A16BB3...@mediaone.net...

> > Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the
Off-Topic,
> > Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their
newsgroups
> > more?
> So you presume to know Cyberlife's motivation? Not even I did that, and
I've
> gotten an email from Toby trying to explain one reason.

I'm just repeating thing I've heard, things in chat, and things in E-Mails.
The above reason is probably the most logical one. If anyone has the real
reason or another one then please tell us!

> > OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me.
> Are you the perfect "every user"? Can what benefits you benefit all? I
didn't
> think so...

I meant that as a new developer without any idea what to do it really
helped. I know it can't help everyone in the community as not everyone is a
developer or is a member of the CDN. After all, it is a free service
designed to help people.

> > I myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has
helped a
> > lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily
charge
> > money for it.
> Oh, great. They ignore most of the community, but it's "OK" because they
do it
> for free. ;)

They don't ignore the community. They take note of our opinions and view in
a.g.c, they create addons and the CDN to help people, and they release
helpful things on their site for C1 and C2 users. Without the community,
Creatures would be nothing. Cyberlife know this so I think it would be in
their own best interests to keep us all happy as possible.

You can keep most of the people happy some of the time.
You can keep some of the people happy most of the time.

>> If you aren't on the internet then you're screwed anyway! :)


> People *should* be able to get said updates off the net. People *should*
be
> able to use the game out of the box without the updates. Etc, etc.

The game is playable without updates. It may not be perfect without updates
but it is still quite playable.

> > Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
> > here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail!
> Yes, but some of the FAQ's are about: Unconscious norns, activating
powerups,
> using the splicer, what to do with Creatures related files, getting norns
to eat
> and sleep, etc. These AREN'T "tiny details", these can make the
difference
> between enjoying C2 and having a brand new coaster.

When I played C2, I didn't need any help at all. Everything I needed was in
the manual. In game all the features seemed easy enough to use if you have
common sense! ;-) <jk>

> The gene splicer is mentioned once. The "stars" weren't mentioned at all.
Cobs
> and the like were mentioned in passing, though their use was not
described, or
> mentioned. These are things *I* spent time writing FAQ's on, that they
> should've bothered covering in the manual.

OK. I agree that the topics above should have been mentioned.

> > Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or
in
> > the LKs which they don't have to.
>Yes, they *do* have to. Though I think it'd probably have been easier on
them
> if they made a usable game in the first place.

It _IS_ a usable game without updates. I played it without updates for a few
weeks and everything seemed fine.

> > They are trying to do the best they can
> > in a bad situation. So what if Cyberlife don't post here? I just don't
get
> > it. If a company doesn't post in a newsgroup it doesn't mean they have
> > abandoned it.
> This entire post was not about CL not posting here -- it was more about
their
> general lack of regard for the community in it's entirety.

Such as.......

> > Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address
thier
> > concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other people
> > complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk to one
person
> > with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!
> Because for every person who says what they think in a post, there are 5
others
> who think the same but are afraid to ask.

Why are they afraid to ask? Cyberlife aren't monsters but real living people
who are happy enough to answer questions.

> > Phew!!!
> > :::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::
> Why are you tired? I wasn't aware spouting propaganda was so thought
consuming.

Well, when I spout propaganda I'll see if I am tired. The reason I wrote
that was because I am in the middle of my school holidays and any form of
debte leaves me a withered, tired creature :)

> PS - EDIT!

PS- I DO!


--

TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson

Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson

Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson

Martha Brummett

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:49:02 -0400, Lummox JR <Lumm...@aol.com>
wrote:

>2.) Expanded vocabulary.
>Yes, this was a failure to deliver. In some ways they managed, but in
>others they botched it so badly that they shouldn't have bothered in the
>first place. While more object categories were made, some old (but
>useful!) ones were removed. Worse yet, simple food got split into three
>different competing categories, and within some of them (plant and
>fruit) the behavior of individual objects wasn't consistent across
>sub-types. I cite the "plant" of the hatchery mushrooms, which can be
>eaten, vs. the "plant" of the tomato stem which does nothing but sit
>there and uselessly attract the Norn's attention. Why call music objects
>"toy", anyway?

I will add that enough noun category slots existed to have a
one-to-one (more-or-less) correlation with category and drive
reducers, which would have made learning somewhat easier for the
creatures. This, however, was not attempted. Tools are available for
world creation, which could allow experimentation with this, but new
C2 worlds are not yet created, due IMO to the difficulty of editing
the background image on a computer not set up specifically for
graphics.


Martha Brummett (C2 species range 39001-39100)
a.g.c Queen of OT Information and Amusement
Piratical Maid-of-All-Work, P.B. Jolly Weeble
mailto:mo...@diac.com
Bonadrey Nornery
http://www.diac.com/~mokus/bonadrey.html

Emily Sachs

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Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to

Paul Richardson wrote:
>
> I'm just repeating thing I've heard, things in chat, and things in E-Mails.
> The above reason is probably the most logical one. If anyone has the real
> reason or another one then please tell us!

I think this stands alone, I won't bother rebutting.

> I meant that as a new developer without any idea what to do it really
> helped. I know it can't help everyone in the community as not everyone is a
> developer or is a member of the CDN. After all, it is a free service
> designed to help people.

I understand the CDN is useful for developers. I've acknowledged that it's
useful for developers. But developers arent' the entire community; they're not
even most of the community. In the long run, most of the community is the kind
of user that needs help just to play, rather than in the development or more
technical aspects. The key to the community is helping these people, and CL's
just not doing the most admirable job in that respect.

> They don't ignore the community. They take note of our opinions and view in
> a.g.c,

<snort>

> they create addons

Which are released months after they're promised, if ever...

> and the CDN to help people,

To help the people that they can eventually exploit to make *more* money...

> and they release
> helpful things on their site for C1 and C2 users.

Eye-candy useless cobs which conveniently ignore blaring bugs...

> Without the community,
> Creatures would be nothing. Cyberlife know this so I think it would be in
> their own best interests to keep us all happy as possible.

It would be in their own best interests...makes you wonder why they don't try
very hard to do it. :)

> You can keep most of the people happy some of the time.
> You can keep some of the people happy most of the time.

Or you can be like Cyberlife, and expect people to be happy with pwetty pictuwes
with no decent game behind them, and wind up displeasing almost everyone.

> The game is playable without updates. It may not be perfect without updates
> but it is still quite playable.

'Scuse me, but did we get different games? I got C2, original version. I'm not
sure what game you're talking about.

Playable, sure, if you don't mind norns that die in two minutes and a ton of
blatant bugs.

> When I played C2, I didn't need any help at all. Everything I needed was in
> the manual.

Then you must've also gotten a different manual than I did, 'cuz the one I got
isn't worthy of lining my sister's bird's cage.

> In game all the features seemed easy enough to use if you have
> common sense! ;-) <jk>

Common sense is not so common. ;) And a lot of what seems simple to some can be
*very* hard to figure out for others -- people writing games/manuals need to
take that into account.

> OK. I agree that the topics above should have been mentioned.

Wow, a concession. I swoon. ;)

> It _IS_ a usable game without updates. I played it without updates for a few
> weeks and everything seemed fine.

I played it without updates for a few weeks and everything seemed like a poorly
made game. Go figure.

> > This entire post was not about CL not posting here -- it was more about their
> > general lack of regard for the community in it's entirety.
>
> Such as.......

Last time I checked, you could read... Try processing some of that which you
read, please? I don't like repeating myself a million times -- that's your
forte, not mine.

> Why are they afraid to ask? Cyberlife aren't monsters but real living people
> who are happy enough to answer questions.

Why should they need to ask if someone already has?

> Well, when I spout propaganda I'll see if I am tired. The reason I wrote
> that was because I am in the middle of my school holidays and any form of
> debte leaves me a withered, tired creature :)

Oh, you think this is a debate? Heh, how quaint.

> > PS - EDIT!
>
> PS- I DO!

PS - BS!

--

AntiNorn

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:27:15 GMT, "Paul Richardson"
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:

>
>So what? The point is, is that they were actually released. At least
>Cyberlife didn't sweep it all under the floorboards. Cyberlife took the time
>to release a free addon as soon as they could and as far as I know, they
>were under no obligation to do so.
>

"So what?".. I'm assuming you weren't here for the huge build-up to
C2... People had to sit around for weeks waiting for a playable
version of the game after they'd already bought it..

>
>
>Well,..... I like german!
>

How nice..

>
>The genome thing with Slink and Cyberlife will only fully be know between
>Slink and CL. Anything else is speculation!
>

Umm, no it's fully know by everyone.. Slink posted the whole thing,
of course CL ignored the whole issue and left AGC..

>
>Cyberlife did include night/day but they didn't include the graphics because
>it would take up far too much space and wouldn't have suited system
>requirements of that time. C3 will be bigger because PC's are better and
>faster. You are saying that it is Cyberlife's fault it has to comply with
>average system specs
>

Umm, you don't pay attention much, do you? C3 was being developed at
the same time C2 was being developed.. CL has all but admitted that..
You can't sit there and say that CL was anticipating everyone was
going to buy a brand new computer in the year between C2 and C3... I
don't see how anyone could after forking over money to CL on a monthly
basis for more eye candy..

>
>If you delete all the plants then certain animals will die. If you delete
>all the animals then certain plants will die. That is the ecosystem in C2.
>

That's the whole point: If you delete all of the plants, the animals
don't die..


>
>Before. The Cyberlife Like Kits are good quality, with great gadgets and
>norns etc. Most addons cost £20.00 but Cyberlife addons are usually only
>half the price!
>

oh, yeah, like that pop-rocket.. real high quality stuff.. and most
addons for other games contain *content* the crap CL puts in their
addons is stuff that is usually provided for free by other
companies(ie: TA, SC, FS, etc..).. Now if CL had put out addons with
new worlds like they promised well over a year ago, I can see paying
money for that..

>
>Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't C1 Genetics but uncompatable with C2
>Genetics?
>

yes, but the propaganda from CL is: "Import your favorite C1 Norns
into C2!!" they don't bother to tell you that it's like giving your
best friend a lobotomy..

>
>Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask for
>it.
>

It was one of the very first things mentioned to CL besides the faulty
genome and the world-wrap bug.

>
>I agree with that but remember that Cyberlife did release them eventaully
>while they are busy making C3. AND they are *free*.
>

you just don't get it, do you? They were "busy making C3" while C2
was being put out... That's why C2 is so dicked up and it takes
months (or even a year) to get things that we already know are done..

Take a look at the pre-release pictures of C2, gee what's that? it's
a boney grendel... Now tell me one good reason why it took a year to
go from that screenshot to us? Keep in mind once again that these
Grendels were promised to us before C2 even came out...

jimbo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Paul Richardson <ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote

>>CL's abandonment of AGC was another.
>
>CL hasn't abandoned AGC. They post more in the CDN Newsgroups becuase they
>are more pest free etc but they still patrol this newsgroup and reply to a
>few messages.

i personally haven't noticed them around for absolutely ages. nothing like
when they used to pop in here often before c2 was released last year....
--
jimbo

official a.g.c. fingerpuppet ubermeister
fingerpuppets! fingerpuppets! get 'em while they're hot!

chirpy deck swabber of the jolly weeble

http://surf.to/jimbo123 - 200 norns, grendels, ettins, hybrids; jayd's cobs, mr nstuff's
cobs, plus bucketloads of others, creature gallery, links, music and a PHOTO OF
JIMBO! you want more?!?

if for some reason the above url works not, here is the full one:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cavern/1556

"i thought i was wrong once. i was mistaken." - karl kennedy

"hope is the one thing we will always have. hopefully." - me!

world's worst misquote:
"the end of the world is nice."

"i've been birched by naked women in a sauna." - lis

"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"
and most importantly,
"JIMBO IS COOL." hehe.

you may have noticed that there are few capital letters in my posts. frankly, i can't be
arsed with them.

the all new serious bit!

"prejudice burns brighter when it's all we have to burn"
"there is never redemption, any fool can regret yesterday"
"the centre of humanity is cruelty"
"the only way to gain approval is by exploiting the very thing that cheapens me"
"the weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong" - all words from
the gospel of the msp. respect!

jimbo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Paul Richardson <ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote

>Hi,
>
>Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good or
>bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will be
>great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,
>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how this
>game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>spot every small error. If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please

>leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace. Give Cyberlife a chance and
>I'm sure you wont be disappointed. Cyberlife delivered practically

>everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a *free*
>add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.* Cyberlife, like

>any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
>their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
>community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment.
>Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by
>people's accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
>and please think of people's feelings. :)

i think the general feeling among the more negatively-oriented peeps here is
that cyberlife's press releases and hype are not to be believed... after the song
and dance they led us with c2 and all the promised things that were either
wrongly implemented or just completely missing (see an's post), the way i
see it is that cyberlife have a fair old job to do to convince us that c3 will be
worth buying, rather than churning out the same old tired press releases of
how everything will be improved when, in fact, the changes are mostly
cosmetic and profit-maximising.

and re this line:


>If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
>leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace.

is that basically saying anyone who disagrees with the almighty cl has no
place here? surely some sort of open, intelligent debate is better than just a
bunch of people gathering around going on about how good a game is without
seeing some of its faults?

jimbo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Paul Richardson <ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote

>> >Cyberlife
>> >delivered practically everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't
>> >included came out as a *free* add-on. Not a program that you have to pay
>> >for but *FREE.*
>
>> How free was the executable upgrade until a month and a half after LK1 was
>> realised? There is, imho, no excuse for waiting any more than a week to
>put
>> it up.
>
>The fact is, is that Cyberlife made the upgrade and that it was posted for
>free, not how long it took to be released.

no, the fact is that it was a cynical ploy to get people to buy the life kit (=cash
for cyberlife) rather than a kind-hearted attempt to fix the bugs for all those
who wouldn't line their pockets with yet more cash. they already *had* the file,
why couldn't they just post it immediately? that's a serious lack of respect for
your customers.

jimbo

unread,
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99