[PLUG] Cyberlife Interview about opinions of agc and Jr-Chat
Ali (Alastair Maggs)
about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with an
interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
what you think.
Enjoy :).
Ali
--
*** email a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
*** Ali and Rich's Websites: http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
Home to:
Albia2000 (Voted officially the second favourite unofficial site in
Cyberlife's Golden Shee Award).
The Creatures Newbie Resource.
The Simpsons Website.
Jollificational Lightning Seeds.
Ali's Domain.
Cloud9 : self written songs.
Aqua-net-ic: Wannadies.
Park Life: Theme Park 2.
Ali and Rich's Online Store.
Ping
news:_e%n3.34$C4.14@wards...
> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
No time, can I just have the jist of it, please? <g>
-Ping
Replace nospam with albia for a valid E-mail address
ICQ: 6283750
"He's dead Jim, you get his tricoder and I'll get his wallet!"
AntiNorn
<a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
>about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
>JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with an
>interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
>what you think.
>
>Enjoy :).
>Ali
**Warning -- Long!**
Nice Article.. Totally biased, but well written..
I find it strange that you failed to comment on the positive things
many of listed in your "Community Talk" have said about C2 and/or
CL...
I won't mention what was said by others, I'm sure they'll want to
have their say in this thread later.. If you check back in AGC, or
ask about my attitude in Chat when C2 first came out you will find
that I was extremely pro-CL.. I was sick of hearing all the whining
about how hard C2 was, how the Norns weren't any good, etc.. That's
why I busted my ass developing some hardy C2 original genome Norns
through breeding alone.. On a nightly basis I would go off on some
sort of rant when 15+ newbies in a row would join chat whining about
how hard the thing was..
What led to my change in attitude? Slink's comments had a very big
impact.. CL's abandonment of AGC was another.. There were numerous
other, little things that were going on that slightly turned my
stomach; namely: this tidbit from your article: "Cyberlife released a
series of free patches and upgrades to fix the geonome and the
bugs within days of them being discovered."
I can't believe that you can sit there and say that with a straight
face.. C2 came out on Aug 27, 1998.. We didn't see any downloads
until mid Sep.. The first patch they release wasn't even useable
since it changed the language of the game to German! A later "free"
patch was made available until weeks after it had been placed in the
first life kit..
I won't go into the genome issue.. We all know what Slink said prior
to leaving the community..
As for bugs.. hmm, is the world-wrap bug fixed yet?
now for your table of promises and what we got:
1. Brand new Alibia, twice the size, etc..
yep, we sure got that, plus triple the system requirements.
you also failed to mention that CL told us they didn't include
night/day because that would double the world size again and make the
game almost unplayable sue to system constraints, yet C3 is yet again
"over twice the size of C2"
2. complete ecosystem with weather and seasons..
yep, got that also.. Of course due to some yet-to-be-fixed
timing bug, many players never seem to get past the first season of
the first year on their systems... The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
it is dependant on the other parts? If you delete every
weed/badcritter/etc,, from the world, nothing happens..
3. 500% more plants and animals
umm, is this before or after the players hand over money for
two add-ons?
4. more skin colors, facial expressions, tails
yeah, it sure is pretty, isn't it.
5. Import your C1 Norns
Import them, watch them lose all C1 genetic structure and
"personality"
6. All new applets
hehe, ok the applets are cool :)
7. rewritten user interface and easier interaction
you're right, it's not much different, but they could have at
least given us the option to switch between a graphical health bar and
one that show true percentages.
8. entire world evolves around you
no comment.. the LJR interview cleared that up, but that
doesn't help people who see the box sitting on a shelf in a store for
the very first time.
9. violent grendels
regardless of the fact that almost a year later, we finally
got them, CL had made the statement of more violent grendels prior to
C2 being release, and they were well aware of the fact that everyone
new this to be a lie in C1. The screen shots of the grendels in
pre-release pics made it even worse when we saw the finished product
out of the box..
10. seeding plants
yeah, they were nice, a bit annoying if you didn't keep an eye
on growth though..
11. learn how to talk
umm, what free add-on was it that allowed you to change the
words? the only update I'm aware of that allowed this was LK1(stone
of ancient knowledge) and it most certainly wasn't free.
On a final note: I find your personal attack on Matthew to be a bit
rude, especially since he's no longer even in the community to "fight
back"..
Tortured Norns - http://www.geocities.com/~antinorn
Paul Richardson
Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good or
bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will be
great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,
Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how this
game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
spot every small error. If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace. Give Cyberlife a chance and
I'm sure you wont be disappointed. Cyberlife delivered practically
everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a *free*
add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.* Cyberlife, like
any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment.
Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by
people's accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
and please think of people's feelings. :)
--
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson
Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson
Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson
> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with
an
> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
> what you think.
>
> Enjoy :).
> Ali
>
Roy McQuaker
Paul Richardson wrote in message ...
>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how this
>game will turn out.
To many cooks.......
>I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>spot every small error.
But some could have be caught by better testing
As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
mostly to come from last August/September.
Patrick Dixon
scrawled on the ancient halls of alt.games.creatures on the historical
date Thu 29 Jul 1999 11:20:01a, the following message, the ID of which
was <lX0o3.6529$V21.2...@nnrp3.clara.net>:
>Hi,
>
>Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good
>or bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will
>be great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,
>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
>but they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to
>how this game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults,
A _few_?!
>what game
>doesn't? With advanced games there are more things that could go wrong
>and nobody could spot every small error.
So, the wraparound bug, etc, were small errors?
>If you 'don't like C3' then
>don't buy it and please leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace.
>Give Cyberlife a chance and I'm sure you wont be disappointed.
::cue evil laughter::
>Cyberlife
>delivered practically everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't
>included came out as a *free* add-on. Not a program that you have to pay
>for but *FREE.*
How free was the executable upgrade until a month and a half after LK1 was
realised? There is, imho, no excuse for waiting any more than a week to put
it up.
>Cyberlife, like any company has to make a profit to pay
>their staff and to continue with their 2020 vision. No other company in
>the world works so hard with their community members to create games,
>add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment. Please remember that the
>people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by people's
>accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation and
>please think of people's feelings. :)
Well, I, for one, would like to see some _evidence_ that C3 is going to be
C1's superior; and not just some screenshots with a fake norn inserted.
--
PMN Breeder
Sig is under reconstruction.
Patrick Dixon
it sound like a day after C@ was released, all the bug-fixes were up for
d/l, which they weren't. And yes, CL might not have had much money for
manuals, but why couldn't they, for instance, include an Adobe version? Or
at least included more actual information! As it was, it was more of a
brochure than a manual. One more thing: I, and I'm sure quite a few other
people, would have preferred it if you'd actually interviewed us, instead
of just posting quotes. You could at least have asked permission to quote
us.
Ali (Alastair Maggs), who in another lifetime was
a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk, scrawled on the ancient halls of
alt.games.creatures on the historical date Thu 29 Jul 1999 09:25:15a, the
following message, the ID of which was <_e%n3.34$C4.14@wards>:
Mannkind
A lot of you guys/gals are doggin' on C3 like you've played it and you _know_
what it is like. Why can't you give CL a break, they've made a few mistakes,
maybe, just maybe, they like most real people (unlike Bill Gates) and _learn_
from their mistakes. I think C3 will be great, and cannot wait for it to come
out. I for one am going to get it the day it comes out (if I have the money).
So why can't you guys stop criticizing CL, and just wait and see if they come
out with a good product or not. If it is bad, then you have a little right to
complain, but just wait and see. You and others around you will be much
happier.
Another useless post by The Deranged Mannkind
CAOS Scripts 60,400 --> 60,500
Generations http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk/dnorn/
Emily Sachs
"Ali (Alastair Maggs)" wrote:
>
> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with an
> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
> what you think.
To go slightly off on a tangent -- AN pretty much covered CL's "promises", any
more would be anti-climatic, IMO -- I'll hit on something I've mentioned before
in agc, in JRChat, and even in an email to Toby.
I don't think CL cares much about the community, at least not as much as they
once did.
When I joined agc, oh so long ago, CL members posted frequently, and not always
completely on-topic. They acted like members of the community, though they were
treated with due respect -- C1 was a great game, and we were a newsgroup of
people in love with it. And life was good.
With the creation of the CDN, and the release of C2, the posts stopped for the
most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN newsgroups, leaving us fend for
ourselves, basically.
In an email Toby sent me, he extolled the CDN as proof of their concern for the
community. Not the entire community is in the CDN. Not the entire community
can benefit from the CDN. We're not all developers; we're not all even
interested in the more technical aspects of Creatures. Many people, myself
included, would like to just be able to enjoy a well programed game -- maybe
enhance our knowledge of Biology, evolution, etc. The CDN doesn't do anything
for me, though I am a member (technically, at least, though without that blasted
cookie I can't get into the CDN site). I don't think I'm alone in that, either.
The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with computer usage
-- need is of a far more basic nature than what Cyberlife tends to provide with
the CDN (not to mention the fact that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are
basically screwed). Why are people like Denise, Mae and and I writing FAQ's
about things that should be in the manual? The expense of printing a manual
acknowledged, I still don't see how they could've forgotten to mention some key
points, such as the need for a creature to activate power-ups, or what the
meaning of the "funky stars" are, much less how to help an unconscious norn --
these are things that had to be covered in FAQs, and were only learned by trail
and error.
What it seems to me is that Cyberlife only cares about users who can cover up
their mistakes by creating updates and cobs that shouldn't be necessary in the
first place. Heaven forbid they try to make said updates themselves -- no,
they're too busy creating more eye-candy cobs that don't help anything, and a
new game when they haven't even completed the ones they've got out. While I
understand that's most likely an unfair observation, it's one aggravated by CL's
apparent silence to agc more than it is helped. While I understand also that
agc isn't the sum of the online Creatures users, it *is* one of the main
components of it, and the community is based in focal points such as this
newsgroup and chats like JRChat (as a note, I've never seen CL members in chat
[besides
Dillon/Alize's pathetic impersonation attempts, that is]).
Also in the email from Toby I mentioned earlier, he said that Cyberlife
"couldn't" post to agc due to the undercurrent of animosity towards them (also,
IMHO, intensified more than relieved by their silence). I admit that there is.
Perhaps it's not completely justified, but there are many points to the
arguments against them. Despite what Ali has said, there are many promises that
weren't carried out by Cyberlife. There are many people who can't get what help
they need from their undernourished manual and equally skimpy help file (and
don't even start me on the forced IE install -- I'm still annoyed by that). The
truth is that if Cyberlife valued us more, as customers should be valued, we
wouldn't have such complaints, and we wouldn't have the provocation to create
such animosity.
Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as if not
acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with it without
expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but it must be used in a
timely fashion. A simple post here and there addressing common concerns would
do wonders for their image in the community, not to mention save them from
writing 10 responses where only one was needed. That they're perfectly willing
to do an interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see, is rather
inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.
Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll give up. ;)
> Enjoy :).
> Ali
--
Just a thought from: Emily Sachs | "When you come to the edge of all that
-> http://members.xoom.com/Emy/ | you know, you must believe one of
-> ICQ: 8980276 | two things; there will be earth
-> AIM: Emy Elis | upon which to stand, or you will be
-> Emy exmly scared, run kids. | given wings to fly."
-----------------------------------------------------
"There must be some mistake
I never meant to let
Them take away my soul.
Am I too old? Is it too late?"
~~Pink Floyd
"The Show Must Go On"
Lummox JR
a quarter and some loose change if you notice the length of the post.
The main thing I wanted to comment on was that you're wrong about CL
keeping all its promises. Two in particular they failed at:
1.) True sprite editing.
I broached this subject to Toby back in the days of C1, when it could
(more) easily have been done as a patch for that game. I specifically
asked him about it--twice, I believe--before C2 was coming out. (In his
initial response about C1, he had mentioned it was something they were
keeping in mind for C2 anyway, and this back when C2 was just a rumor.)
Each time I asked whether it would be in C2, the reply seemed to
indicate it would be. I look back now and, with hindsight, see the
response was a bit vascillating and misleading--but nevertheless it
implied that true sprite editing would indeed be possible. Given Toby's
earlier comments on the subject, the promise was implied.
Instead we were left with a cheesy compromise: Only breed editing would
be possible, but with twenty-six slots instead of ten. (Um... guys...
why not *thirty*-six, anyway?) I would have produced many a
sprite-edited Norn by now if it had been possible in C1, let alone in
C2.
2.) Expanded vocabulary.
Yes, this was a failure to deliver. In some ways they managed, but in
others they botched it so badly that they shouldn't have bothered in the
first place. While more object categories were made, some old (but
useful!) ones were removed. Worse yet, simple food got split into three
different competing categories, and within some of them (plant and
fruit) the behavior of individual objects wasn't consistent across
sub-types. I cite the "plant" of the hatchery mushrooms, which can be
eaten, vs. the "plant" of the tomato stem which does nothing but sit
there and uselessly attract the Norn's attention. Why call music objects
"toy", anyway?
And I feel like ranting again on their choice of words. "Implement", for
crying out loud? Sure, let's make that built-in to the game so that it
can't be changed until a (non-free) patch comes out several months
later.
Okay, enough hysterical ranting. Those are two points I felt compelled
to bring up.
As for the article itself, I liked the style but you can hardly claim to
have shown "both sides of the arguement" when your thesis statement
outright said that C3 would be a great game (that doesn't belong in your
thesis unless it's part of your main point), and that you wondered why
there was so much criticism of it (a clearly established bias on the
article from the beginning). As an article told from your own
perspective, it's well written. But it's not objective by a long shot.
And now, for my own reasons for distrusting the release of C3:
I liked C1 a lot. I thought C2, with as many improvements as Cyberlife
boasted, had a great deal of potential. So like many, I went along with
the hype and got really excited waiting through 1998 for the game to
appear. But toward fall, things got dicey.
The crux of the problem was that early user feedback was needed, just
like in any game, to identify bugs and weaknesses. But Mindscape, which
ran the "Early" Adoption Program, didn't choose people to involve until
a week after C2 had already been shipped. Worse yet, they selected
almost none of the people that Cyberlife guaranteed outright would have
an early copy of the game.
(Am I bitter that I wasn't part of the EAP? Heck yeah; I should have
been part of it in June, the very latest the EAP should have shipped. I
was promised no less by Cyberlife. And on an equally personal note, it
bothered me no end that Mindscape didn't have the decency to get my
site's URL right, much less to ever correct it.)
Anyway, when C2 arrived, despite the complete lack of an EAP and other
problems, people were excited--albeit concerned. By the time I got it,
about two or three weeks later, that excitement was already waning,
because people were beginning to see the result of Cyberlife having had
no one to beta test the game. The vocabulary had problems, the world had
that wraparound bug, the Norns couldn't survive well even with
supervision. Choose your complaint; I did.
C2 had a very lukewarm reception entirely because of those early
problems. It *did* improve, yes. Mostly that was the work of third-party
developers like Lis Morris, Mannkind, and myself, among many others--and
frankly I haven't done remotely as much for C2 as Lis has. I haven't
bought any of the Life Kits because I have about as much use for pretty
new COBs as I do for a running sore on my forearm; how about fixing the
bugs instead?
C2 is now a very good and playable game. But it didn't come out that
way, and it was because nobody was waiting to find out if there was
anything wrong. Space missions didn't get launched without exhaustive
testing; neither is it customary to ship a product that hasn't been
independently tested. Oops.
As to how this bears on C3, the answer is simple: The EXACT SAME PATTERN
of Cyberlife press releases and hype is taking place for C3. This
wouldn't be so bad, except that it fails to mention how C3 will be
making up for C2 and not falling into the same traps the last game did.
Cyberlife has *never* acknowledged that C2 ever had any of those
problems with its early release, and that acknowledgement should be in
every single C3 press release. (Yes, really.) Typically a company that
makes a mistake with a second game has the brains to figure out not to
make the same mistakes with a third, assuming the third is by that point
commercially viable; if indeed they've learned from C2, they need to
make that well-known to the public. C2's mistake was having no user
feedback before the big day. C3 appears to have made that mistake even
worse; rumor has it it even began development at the same time C2 did.
(It's the only reasonable explanation for the delay in patches and
upgrades, too; they were apparently so focused on C3 that fixing C2
wasn't a priority.)
I have yet to hear Cyberlife say something to the effect of, "Yes, we
know we made a mistake by allowing Mindscape to rush C2 out the door,
and we should have handled the EAP ourselves to ensure we had a good
product before we shipped." This statement *needs* to be at the
forefront of any press release about C3, to clear the air and to regain
trust.
But, perhaps the worst part about all this is that C3 was announced to
be ready only a year after C2's release. That announcement came while C2
was still mired in many of its original bugs and design flaws, and
everyone knew that C2 had come out too early. If that's what happens
when two years elapse following a *solid* program, what good could come
of releasing a sequel (or prequel, in this case) only one year after the
last one which had huge problems for the first six months of its
existence?
I don't much care about how people are saying Cyberlife abandoned a.g.c.
I agree with them, but then for the most part I abandoned a.g.c in 1998
too. What bothers me is that Cyberlife hasn't even addressed the simple
problems behind C2's too-early release, too-late testing, and C3
following so closely in its wake that you can almost hear the propellers
scrape the box. Without even acknowledging that simple fact, Cyberlife
guarantees bad reaction to C3 because people have no reason to take the
press releases at face value anymore.
I hear a lot about how Cyberife doesn't care about the community; you
can take any side you like on that one. I think for their part they do
care, but they don't involve themselves nearly enough to show it.
Personally I'd settle for just a straight answer: When C2 started
generating complaints, how come Cyberlife didn't move faster to fix
them? And when those complaints stacked up, why wasn't C3 pushed back a
few months (at least!) to re-examine the concept?
Lummox JR
Ali (Alastair Maggs)
quotes or whatever. I intend to rewrite the article, and would apreciate
some more comments from people here that I could use. Would it be possible
to use posts from this thread (with the author's permission?)?.
Thanks.
Ali
--
*** email a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
*** Ali and Rich's Websites: http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
Home to:
Albia2000 (Voted officially the second favourite unofficial site in
Cyberlife's Golden Shee Award).
The Creatures Newbie Resource.
The Simpsons Website.
Jollificational Lightning Seeds.
Ali's Domain.
Cloud9 : self written songs.
Aqua-net-ic: Wannadies.
Park Life: Theme Park 2.
Ali and Rich's Online Store.
Ali (Alastair Maggs) <a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:_e%n3.34$C4.14@wards...
> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long article
> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with
an
> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me know
> what you think.
>
> Enjoy :).
> Ali
>
> --
> *** email a...@albia2000.force9.co.uk ***
>
Emily Sachs
"Ali (Alastair Maggs)" wrote:
>
> To follow up, I'm really sorry about any upset caused by the choice of my
> quotes or whatever. I intend to rewrite the article, and would apreciate
> some more comments from people here that I could use. Would it be possible
> to use posts from this thread (with the author's permission?)?.
You should probably email seperately for permission, as a rule of thumb. Many
may not notice this post :)
> Thanks.
Indigo
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views.
Not exactly sure what qualifies as "anti-C3" these days, but I don't
think a third version of a product should even be in consideration
when there are still major problems with the second version. (Can you
say "world-wrap-bug"?? Knew you could...)
> How can you say how good or
>bad a game is from a few screenshots.
Exactly. How are screenshots with fake "pop-in" norns supposed to tell
us anything?? Nice eye-candy. Oh, sorta like C2... (Can you say deja
vu boys and girls?? Knew you could...)
> People who liked C2 say C3 will be
>great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish.
Wrong.
The anticipation for C2 was huge. C1 was awesome, so C2 was expected
to be twice as awesome. The C1 norns were great. The C1 world was
great. C2 came out... and... well... perhaps our expectations were too
high. I refuse to get my hopes up for C3, especially if it's just more
eye candy and less intelligent norns with a bigger vocabulary. I won't
be buying C3 right away, mainly because I have other stuff to buy
before I decide to buy a new CPU. (I have a P 200 MMX with 128mb ram.
Oddly, C2 lags. C3's sys req is a P 200, so I'm guessing I'll need a
PII 400 which I can't afford, at the moment).
> In the article,
>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>they now have 'FIVE' people.
More isn't always better...
I would very much like to be proven wrong in this case...
>Surely, that is some indication as to how this
>game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't?
True enough.
However, shouldn't those faults be fixed before the next version of
the game comes out?? Rather, shouldn't those faults be fixed before
the next version of the game even goes into consideration????
> With
>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>spot every small error.
But with OUTSIDE beta testing, more errors are spotted, especially
ones that ARE NOT small. If you re-read Ali's article, CL more than
slightly avoided the question about C2 being tested enough. There was
a C2 EAP, which was supposed to be the outside testing. And those of
us that were involved got our cd's AFTER the game was released. EAP my
foot. 2-3 weeks after C2 came out, some EAP-ers STILL hadn't gotten
their stuff.
>If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
>leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace. Give Cyberlife a chance and
>I'm sure you wont be disappointed.
I was disappointed in C2.
It looked great. It sounded great.
I'm not gonna let the same thing happen with C3. I'm not gonna rave
about how wonderful it sounds only to have it get here buggy,
untested, and slow as heck. I don't know if I'll like C3 or not. I'm
not gonna bother getting my hopes up. I'll buy it eventually, when I
have the hard drive space and the CPU to do so.
>Cyberlife delivered practically
>everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a *free*
>add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.*
Um, excuse me??
Isn't there a problem when the best norns around are made by THIRD
PARTY DEVELOPERS??
>Cyberlife, like
>any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
>their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
>community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment.
Hmmmm...
That seems to be a rather broad assumption... I will agree that they
*used* to work hard with their community members, but as many have
noticed in the past, they no longer post here. Unless you count
members of the CDN, but I'm not a developer, so I guess if the CDN is
the actual community, I'm on the outside.
>Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by
>people's accusations.
Hurt by accusations?? Well, I guess that makes sense. The truth hurts.
More oft than not...
>Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
>and please think of people's feelings. :)
Care to borrow a mirror??
Grah.
Indigo
*+*+*+*+*+*
"I never think of the future, it comes soon enough."
-- Albert Einstein
"Eve and guys about castration know."
-- Eve of JRchat
*+*+*+*+*+*
Miranda's Starbucks. Because Indigo recommends it.
*+*+*+*+*+*
Indigo, AGC goo extraordinaire.
High Priestess to the AGC Goddess of the Shee.
ICQ: 1530587
Website: Yeah, someday.
*+*+*+*+*+*
NORNGod
>
> >Phooey, of course you count!!
>
> Doh! Your right! ::counts... 1, 2 ,3 ...::
>
> >Actually, I see people trying not to get too excited or overzealous
> >about "how great" the game might be like they did about C2 and were
> >disappointed.
>
> I too see that, but I also see people putting the game down, yes, C2 was a
> little disapointing, but you can't put down a game thats not even out yet. Its
> kinda (kinda) like saying thay just because your second piece of art wasn't as
> good as your first, that your third (or next) piece of art isn't going to be
> good at all.
>
> >We'll just have to wait till C3 comes out and see if they've
> >"redeemed" themselves.
>
> Yes, basicly that is all we _can_ do, except for all the complaining. :)
>
> >I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be
> >for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.
>
> I have a P233 and C2 runs great :) Not that my machine hasn't been tweaked by
> yourstruely, but ;)
>
Would you mind telling me what you 'tweaked'? Even on a P2 350mhz with
128 megs of RAM, my world can almost slow to a crawl at certain points.
Anything you did to help your system would be certainly welcome on this
end. :)
--
NORNGod - nor...@fast.net
--------------------------
Visit NORNGod's NORNMania!
http://www.norngod.com
--
But since that isn't working
at the moment, try:
http://206.208.47.82
Indigo
wrote:
>Not that I count anymore, but I'd have to agree with what Ali has wrote.
Phooey, of course you count!! (Not saying I entirely agree with what
Ali wrote, buuuuut, you do still count. <g>)
>A lot of you guys/gals are doggin' on C3 like you've played it and you _know_
>what it is like.
Actually, I see people trying not to get too excited or overzealous
about "how great" the game might be like they did about C2 and were
disappointed.
>Why can't you give CL a break, they've made a few mistakes,
>maybe, just maybe, they like most real people (unlike Bill Gates) and _learn_
>from their mistakes.
We'll just have to wait till C3 comes out and see if they've
"redeemed" themselves.
I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be
for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.
>I think C3 will be great, and cannot wait for it to come
>out. I for one am going to get it the day it comes out (if I have the money).
>So why can't you guys stop criticizing CL, and just wait and see if they come
>out with a good product or not. If it is bad, then you have a little right to
>complain, but just wait and see. You and others around you will be much
>happier.
I'd rather be happily surprised that something is better than expected
than disappointed that something is even worse than before. I'm still
annoyed that there is a C3 even being worked on when there's so much
more that can be done in C2.
But maybe I'm just weird.
Mannkind
Doh! Your right! ::counts... 1, 2 ,3 ...::
>Actually, I see people trying not to get too excited or overzealous
>about "how great" the game might be like they did about C2 and were
>disappointed.
I too see that, but I also see people putting the game down, yes, C2 was a
little disapointing, but you can't put down a game thats not even out yet. Its
kinda (kinda) like saying thay just because your second piece of art wasn't as
good as your first, that your third (or next) piece of art isn't going to be
good at all.
>We'll just have to wait till C3 comes out and see if they've
>"redeemed" themselves.
Yes, basicly that is all we _can_ do, except for all the complaining. :)
>I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be
>for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.
I have a P233 and C2 runs great :) Not that my machine hasn't been tweaked by
yourstruely, but ;)
>But maybe I'm just weird
No buts about it ;) Then again, it is said we share a brain... :)
Paul Richardson
>
> Nice Article.. Totally biased, but well written..
Not really. It was slightly biased but did have different views.
> What led to my change in attitude? Slink's comments had a very big
> impact..
What comments? I admit that I wasn't here to see them but I know a basic
idea of what happened between her and Cyberlife.
>CL's abandonment of AGC was another.
CL hasn't abandoned AGC. They post more in the CDN Newsgroups becuase they
are more pest free etc but they still patrol this newsgroup and reply to a
few messages.
> There were numerous
> other, little things that were going on that slightly turned my
> stomach; namely: this tidbit from your article: "Cyberlife released a
> series of free patches and upgrades to fix the geonome and the
> bugs within days of them being discovered."
> I can't believe that you can sit there and say that with a straight
> face.. C2 came out on Aug 27, 1998.. We didn't see any downloads
> until mid Sep..
So what? The point is, is that they were actually released. At least
Cyberlife didn't sweep it all under the floorboards. Cyberlife took the time
to release a free addon as soon as they could and as far as I know, they
were under no obligation to do so.
>The first patch they release wasn't even useable
> since it changed the language of the game to German!
Well,..... I like german!
> I won't go into the genome issue.. We all know what Slink said prior
> to leaving the community..
The genome thing with Slink and Cyberlife will only fully be know between
Slink and CL. Anything else is speculation!
> As for bugs.. hmm, is the world-wrap bug fixed yet?
No but many other major bugs have been.
>
> 1. Brand new Alibia, twice the size, etc..
> yep, we sure got that, plus triple the system requirements.
> you also failed to mention that CL told us they didn't include
> night/day because that would double the world size again and make the
> game almost unplayable sue to system constraints, yet C3 is yet again
> "over twice the size of C2"
Cyberlife did include night/day but they didn't include the graphics because
it would take up far too much space and wouldn't have suited system
requirements of that time. C3 will be bigger because PC's are better and
faster. You are saying that it is Cyberlife's fault it has to comply with
average system specs
> 2. complete ecosystem with weather and seasons..
> yep, got that also.. Of course due to some yet-to-be-fixed
> timing bug, many players never seem to get past the first season of
> the first year on their systems... The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
> correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
> it is dependant on the other parts? If you delete every
> weed/badcritter/etc,, from the world, nothing happens..
If you delete all the plants then certain animals will die. If you delete
all the animals then certain plants will die. That is the ecosystem in C2.
> 3. 500% more plants and animals
> umm, is this before or after the players hand over money for
> two add-ons?
Before. The Cyberlife Like Kits are good quality, with great gadgets and
norns etc. Most addons cost £20.00 but Cyberlife addons are usually only
half the price!
> 5. Import your C1 Norns
> Import them, watch them lose all C1 genetic structure and
> "personality"
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't C1 Genetics but uncompatable with C2
Genetics?
> 6. All new applets
> hehe, ok the applets are cool :)
At least we are all agreed on this! :)
> 7. rewritten user interface and easier interaction
> you're right, it's not much different, but they could have at
> least given us the option to switch between a graphical health bar and
> one that show true percentages.
Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask for
it.
> 9. violent grendels
> regardless of the fact that almost a year later, we finally
> got them, CL had made the statement of more violent grendels prior to
> C2 being release, and they were well aware of the fact that everyone
> new this to be a lie in C1. The screen shots of the grendels in
> pre-release pics made it even worse when we saw the finished product
> out of the box..
I agree with that but remember that Cyberlife did release them eventaully
while they are busy making C3. AND they are *free*.
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Paul Richardson
> >Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views.
>
> Not exactly sure what qualifies as "anti-C3" these days, but I don't
> think a third version of a product should even be in consideration
> when there are still major problems with the second version. (Can you
> say "world-wrap-bug"?? Knew you could...)
What is the world wrap bug? I honestly have no idea what it is! As to your
arguement, C3 should still be released even though their are a few faults
with C2. Cyberlife have tried over and over again to try and fix C2 through
patches, addons etc. C3 will be what C2 was 'meant to be' only much better.
>
> > How can you say how good or
> >bad a game is from a few screenshots.
>
> Exactly. How are screenshots with fake "pop-in" norns supposed to tell
> us anything?? Nice eye-candy. Oh, sorta like C2... (Can you say deja
> vu boys and girls?? Knew you could...)
Those 'fake pop-in' norns are there so that we don't discover what the new
norns truly look like. If we found out, it would be like sneaking downstairs
on christmas eve and opening your gifts a day early! It is meant to be a
surprise what they look like. Give Cyberlife a bit a credit for this!
> > In the article,
> >Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
but
> >they now have 'FIVE' people.
>
> More isn't always better...
> I would very much like to be proven wrong in this case...
In certain cases more is better. More people would spot more mistakes. More
people could creae more different areas of the brain. More people would help
make it more detailed instead of having one person take three months.
>
> >Surely, that is some indication as to how this
> >game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't?
>
> True enough.
> However, shouldn't those faults be fixed before the next version of
> the game comes out?? Rather, shouldn't those faults be fixed before
> the next version of the game even goes into consideration????
Cyberlife have tried over and over to fix those faults with patches. Now
they are moving on the create something better.
>
> >Cyberlife delivered practically
> >everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a
*free*
> >add-on. Not a program that you have to pay for but *FREE.*
>
> Um, excuse me??
> Isn't there a problem when the best norns around are made by THIRD
> PARTY DEVELOPERS??
Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
figures like that!
>
> >Cyberlife, like
> >any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
> >their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
> >community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their
enjoyment.
>
> Hmmmm...
> That seems to be a rather broad assumption... I will agree that they
> *used* to work hard with their community members, but as many have
> noticed in the past, they no longer post here. Unless you count
> members of the CDN, but I'm not a developer, so I guess if the CDN is
> the actual community, I'm on the outside.
They may no longer post here but they still read messages and they still
reply to them! I bet they are reading this debate right now! They still
work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help with the Boney
Grendels and they created the CDN which is a ***FREE*** service especially
for third party people. I can think of many companys which would make you
pay for the CDN but Cyberlife give it free as a service to us.
>
> >Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt
by
> >people's accusations.
>
> Hurt by accusations?? Well, I guess that makes sense. The truth hurts.
> More oft than not...
Yes, the truth hurts but what hurts more is accusation after
accusationsafter accusation and that is just not fair to the Cyberlife team.
>
> >Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
> >and please think of people's feelings. :)
>
> Care to borrow a mirror??
OK.
:::Drops mirror::::
D'Oh!
>
> Grah.
Paul Richardson
Emily Sachs <emy-...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:37A0C84E...@mediaone.net...
>
> I don't think CL cares much about the community, at least not as much as
they
> once did.
>
> When I joined agc, oh so long ago, CL members posted frequently, and not
always
> completely on-topic. They acted like members of the community, though they
were
> treated with due respect -- C1 was a great game, and we were a newsgroup
of
> people in love with it. And life was good.
Just because they don't post in a.g.c doesn't meant they aren't still here.
> With the creation of the CDN, and the release of C2, the posts stopped for
the
> most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN newsgroups, leaving us fend for
> ourselves, basically.
Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the Off-Topic,
Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their newsgroups
more?
> In an email Toby sent me, he extolled the CDN as proof of their concern
for the
> community. Not the entire community is in the CDN. Not the entire
community
> can benefit from the CDN. We're not all developers; we're not all even
> interested in the more technical aspects of Creatures. Many people,
myself
> included, would like to just be able to enjoy a well programed game --
maybe
> enhance our knowledge of Biology, evolution, etc. The CDN doesn't do
anything
> for me, though I am a member (technically, at least, though without that
blasted
> cookie I can't get into the CDN site). I don't think I'm alone in that,
either.
OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me. I
myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has helped a
lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily charge
money for it.
> The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with computer
usage
> -- need is of a far more basic nature than what Cyberlife tends to provide
with
> the CDN (not to mention the fact that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are
> basically screwed).
If you aren't on the internedt then you're screwed anyway! :)
> Why are people like Denise, Mae and and I writing FAQ's
> about things that should be in the manual? The expense of printing a
manual
> acknowledged, I still don't see how they could've forgotten to mention
some key
> points, such as the need for a creature to activate power-ups, or what the
> meaning of the "funky stars" are, much less how to help an unconscious
norn --
> these are things that had to be covered in FAQs, and were only learned by
trail
> and error.
Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail! They are a
small company who can't afford a huge manual. I admit it could have been a
bit better but what you would like could ruin Cyberlife!
> What it seems to me is that Cyberlife only cares about users who can cover
up
> their mistakes by creating updates and cobs that shouldn't be necessary in
the
> first place. Heaven forbid they try to make said updates themselves --
no,
> they're too busy creating more eye-candy cobs that don't help anything,
and a
> new game when they haven't even completed the ones they've got out. While
I
> understand that's most likely an unfair observation, it's one aggravated
by CL's
> apparent silence to agc more than it is helped. While I understand also
that
> agc isn't the sum of the online Creatures users, it *is* one of the main
> components of it, and the community is based in focal points such as this
> newsgroup and chats like JRChat (as a note, I've never seen CL members in
chat
> [besides
> Dillon/Alize's pathetic impersonation attempts, that is]).
Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or in
the LKs which they don't have to. They are trying to do the best they can
in a bad situation. So what if Cyberlife don't post here? I just don't get
it. If a company doesn't post in a newsgroup it doesn't mean they have
abandoned it.
>
> Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as if not
> acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with it without
> expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but it must be used
in a
> timely fashion. A simple post here and there addressing common concerns
would
> do wonders for their image in the community, not to mention save them from
> writing 10 responses where only one was needed. That they're perfectly
willing
> to do an interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
> something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see, is
rather
> inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.
Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address thier
concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other people
complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk to one person
with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!
> Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll give up.
;)
Phew!!!
:::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::
--
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson
Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson
Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson
>
Noigea
>it.
I agree completely. CL is still coming to acg? if so, why don't we tell them
what we want instead of bemoaning our lack of having it now.
>>The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
>> correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
>> it is dependant on the other parts?
i was thinking about maybe cobbling up some cobs that work in a system, but
quit before I started. It was difficult to even think about how the system
would work. so cut them a break, they did a pretty good job with the plants
and ants.
hey CL, why aren't you defending yourself here? your silence is disturbing.
Emily Sachs
Paul Richardson wrote:
>
> Just because they don't post in a.g.c doesn't meant they aren't still here.
I understand that. I said the equivalent later in the post.
> Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the Off-Topic,
> Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their newsgroups
> more?
So you presume to know Cyberlife's motivation? Not even I did that, and I've
gotten an email from Toby trying to explain one reason.
> OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me.
Are you the perfect "every user"? Can what benefits you benefit all? I didn't
think so...
> I
> myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has helped a
> lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily charge
> money for it.
Oh, great. They ignore most of the community, but it's "OK" because they do it
for free. ;)
> If you aren't on the internedt then you're screwed anyway! :)
People *should* be able to get said updates off the net. People *should* be
able to use the game out of the box without the updates. Etc, etc.
> Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
> here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail!
Yes, but some of the FAQ's are about: Unconscious norns, activating powerups,
using the splicer, what to do with Creatures related files, getting norns to eat
and sleep, etc. These AREN'T "tiny details", these can make the difference
between enjoying C2 and having a brand new coaster.
> They are a
> small company who can't afford a huge manual. I admit it could have been a
> bit better but what you would like could ruin Cyberlife!
What I would like is sometihng that worked a little less in hyped up lies and
more in *useful* info...
"Norns live about 10 hours and reach adolescence after about 1.5 hours..."
should have been more along the lines of, "Norns live about 3 hours, only if you
can keep them from running off cliffs and starving to death in the first five
minutes of life. Breeding? Good luck!"
"Concepts such as look, eat and hit can be taught using the learning machine
computer. Words for feelings, such as hungry, lonely and scared can be taught
using the second computer..." should have been more like "The learning computers
will teach them words, if you have the patience to be able to keep them from the
walls for the ten minutes it takes them to learn at each computer. And let's
not forget the cumbersome words like "implement", "mediabox", and "medicines",
and the ever-popular "friendly"."
"Albia is a wonderful exciting world, but it also contains dangers. From the
vicious Grendel lurking near the swamps, to the irritable bees that have a habit
of stinging passing norns." should be "Albia is a beautiful world, but it also
contains dangers. From the evil walls which norns will repeatedly run into, to
the Grendels that will sit around an let the norns beat them up because they're
sick from spending their entire life in the volcano."
The gene splicer is mentioned once. The "stars" weren't mentioned at all. Cobs
and the like were mentioned in passing, though their use was not described, or
mentioned. These are things *I* spent time writing FAQ's on, that they
should've bothered covering in the manual.
Also, it occurs to me that the manuals should be printed up by Mindscape rather
than Cyberlife. And they did release a "manual", that is, if you are willing to
pay the $20(?) to buy Toby's book and learn what they should've already told
you.
> Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or in
> the LKs which they don't have to.
Yes, they *do* have to. Though I think it'd probably have been easier on them
if they made a usable game in the first place.
If CL cares so much, how come all of the most useful cobs, utilities, and
genomes were made by third party developers? How come they waited months to
release an update that they promised would be free -- that shouldn't have been
needed anyway? To make more money on the Life Kit; to frustrate people enough
with the language bugs they'd created to make them dish out MORE money for a
bunch of eye-candy cobs.
> They are trying to do the best they can
> in a bad situation. So what if Cyberlife don't post here? I just don't get
> it. If a company doesn't post in a newsgroup it doesn't mean they have
> abandoned it.
This entire post was not about CL not posting here -- it was more about their
general lack of regard for the community in it's entirety.
> Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address thier
> concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other people
> complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk to one person
> with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!
Because for every person who says what they think in a post, there are 5 others
who think the same but are afraid to ask.
> Phew!!!
> :::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::
Why are you tired? I wasn't aware spouting propaganda was so thought consuming.
PS - EDIT!
ant
Roy McQuaker wrote in message <7nq81c$hak$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>Paul Richardson wrote in message ...
this
>>game will turn out.
>
>
>>I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
>>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>>spot every small error.
>
>
>As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
>unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
>mostly to come from last August/September.
>
>
>
i for one would have liked to be able to read the original article before
Ali took it down for revision, by the time his plug appeared over here it
had already been removed form his page.....<grumble, mutter, plastic
history...>
ant
James Grant, Executive Director of UNICEF, credits Nestlé's
marketing practices with well over a million deaths a year.
Paul Richardson
Roy McQuaker <Mad...@mad-fish.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7nq81c$hak$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> >Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
but
> >they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how
this
> >game will turn out.
>
> To many cooks.......
.......make what I hope is a very detailed game!
>
> >I admit, C2 had a few faults, what game doesn't? With
> >advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
> >spot every small error.
>
> But some could have be caught by better testing
I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different things
that could go wrong because games nowadays are far more detailed and
advanced.
>
> As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
> unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
> mostly to come from last August/September.
It was slightly biased in my opinion. What scares me is that Ali actually
took the time to find those quotes!!! 3:-)
Paul Richardson
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Dixon <cdi...@7cities.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.games.creatures
Sent: 29 July 1999 07:25
Subject: Re: [PLUG] Cyberlife Interview about opinions of agc and Jr-Chat
> >Hi,
> >
> >Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good
> >or bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will
> >be great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,
> >Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome
> >but they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to
> >how this game will turn out. I admit, C2 had a few faults,
> A _few_?!
Compared with many other advanced games titles, eg Tomb Raider 3, there are
few. There are so many possilbe things that could go wrong in the Creatures
game. A CAOS script written incorrectly, a faulty sprite, I think it is
amazing that Creatures 2 didn't have more bugs considering how advanced it
is.
> >what game
> >doesn't? With advanced games there are more things that could go wrong
> >and nobody could spot every small error.
> So, the wraparound bug, etc, were small errors?
No. But imagine how many other faults there may have been if Cyberlife had
not tested C2. It isn't their fault that they did not spot every single
mistake, even big mistakes can find their way through the testing process.
> >If you 'don't like C3' then
> >don't buy it and please leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace.
> >Give Cyberlife a chance and I'm sure you wont be disappointed.
> ::cue evil laughter::
I don't see what's so funny about it. I trust Cyberlife to make a great game
out of C3 and I don't know why some people play Creatures if they are so
very critical of it. Play Dogz or Catz if you want an AI game without bugs
but without depth.
> >Cyberlife
> >delivered practically everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't
> >included came out as a *free* add-on. Not a program that you have to pay
> >for but *FREE.*
> How free was the executable upgrade until a month and a half after LK1 was
> realised? There is, imho, no excuse for waiting any more than a week to
put
> it up.
The fact is, is that Cyberlife made the upgrade and that it was posted for
free, not how long it took to be released.
> >Cyberlife, like any company has to make a profit to pay
> >their staff and to continue with their 2020 vision. No other company in
> >the world works so hard with their community members to create games,
> >add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment. Please remember that the
> >people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by people's
> >accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation and
> >please think of people's feelings. :)
> Well, I, for one, would like to see some _evidence_ that C3 is going to be
> C1's superior; and not just some screenshots with a fake norn inserted.
The fake norn is there so we don't know what the new norns will look like.
It is there so it doesn't spoil the surprise. Give Cyberlife some credit
instead of attacking them for wanting to keep everyone excited! If you look
at the screenshots you'll see
that C3 will be graphically amazing but also it will have a much better
ecology. As for the Creatures in it, we'll just have to wait. I really don't
see everyone's problem with the fake norn. It's not like Cyberlife are
trying to trick us because it would be one hell of a bad trick! Think
logically, and you'll see that they want to keep us all excited.
--
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson
Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson
Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson
> --
ant
Emily Sachs wrote in message <37A0C84E...@mediaone.net>...
>
>
>"Ali (Alastair Maggs)" wrote:
>>
>> Yups. Check out www.albia2000.force9.co.uk ! I've written a long
article
>> about the opinions of some of the "anti-C3-anti-CL people" here and in
>> JR-Chat. Its got a mixture of their views, with my views, followed with
an
>> interview with Cyberlife. It should make intresting reading. Let me
know
>> what you think.
>
>To go slightly off on a tangent -- AN pretty much covered CL's "promises",
any
>more would be anti-climatic, IMO -- I'll hit on something I've mentioned
before
>in agc, in JRChat, and even in an email to Toby.
>
>Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as if not
>acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with it without
>expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but it must be used in
a
>timely fashion. A simple post here and there addressing common concerns
would
>do wonders for their image in the community, not to mention save them from
>writing 10 responses where only one was needed. That they're perfectly
willing
>to do an interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
>something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see, is rather
>inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.
>
replying by email only means that people like me who like to be asked for my
email address, as my reply to and sender fields are fully spamblocked to
stop unsolicited emails, are also excluded from the feedback from the
cyberlife team. BTW anyone who wants my email address just has to ask in the
newsgroup.
>Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll give up. ;)
having mindscape as their distributor does not help with their public image
at all, i still cant find a copy of C1 in Australia, even in the second hand
game shops, i doubt more then a few hundred copys ever made it to Australia
as mindscape Australia denied knowledge of the game back in august last
year, and the retailers i spoke to who knew of it had not been able to
re-order it from mindscape when the samples they were sent ran out. after
explaining my problem to cyberlife in an email their only suggestion was for
me to buy it online from America, which i can't do because i don't have a
credit card (even if i did i would not use it over the web because we are
only allowed weak ssl encryption in Australia, the encryption is so weakened
my computer could crack it in a few hours), so no life kits for me either.
i might have to get my dad to get a questionable copy of c1 from HK next
time he is there, he said he has seen it for as little as A$5, but its
origin is questionable, but if it installs and runs on his laptop i dont
really care as i have tried the legitimate options and have had no luck.
ant
Indigo
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>What is the world wrap bug? I honestly have no idea what it is!
Where the world "seams" together. The norns start going towards it and
start going the other way. You probably don't know what it is 'cause
the world's too big and your norns haven't even been over there yet.
Another one of my C2 pet peeves... and C3's supposed to be even
bigger. Oh joy...
>As to your
>arguement, C3 should still be released even though their are a few faults
>with C2. Cyberlife have tried over and over again to try and fix C2 through
>patches, addons etc. C3 will be what C2 was 'meant to be' only much better.
"Have tried"???
I have not even seen them attempt to fix the world wrap bug.
And isn't it more than slightly disturbing that the best norns and
cobs around are 3rd party??
If C3 is what C2 was meant to be... I await my free upgrade to C3.
>Those 'fake pop-in' norns are there so that we don't discover what the new
>norns truly look like. If we found out, it would be like sneaking downstairs
>on christmas eve and opening your gifts a day early! It is meant to be a
>surprise what they look like. Give Cyberlife a bit a credit for this!
Oh please...
Why bother releasing screenshots at all then??
Or system requirements??
Or any info at all??
>In certain cases more is better. More people would spot more mistakes. More
>people could creae more different areas of the brain. More people would help
>make it more detailed instead of having one person take three months.
More people OUTSIDE the company would spot more mistakes. Anyone who's
ever designed a website knows this. The usability of it needs to be
centered around people who know nill about
designing/creating/developing it.
If C3 is supposed to be coming out in November, the outside beta
testing should begin ASAP. 3 months of beta testing seems good to me.
Think it'll happen?? Well, I'm not holding my breath...
>Cyberlife have tried over and over to fix those faults with patches. Now
>they are moving on the create something better.
Uh.... it's their game. They made it. The bugs should be fixed BEFORE
another game costing another $40 gets started. And they shouldn't
depend on third party developers to fix the bugs for them, either.
>Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
>Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
>figures like that!
I've not seen 1300 people working on norn genomes.
Lis and LJR have the best out there so far. Third party. That's TWO
people. TWO. So then 100 cyberlife employees to 2 third party
developers?!!?!! Ouch. Not saying much.
>They may no longer post here but they still read messages and they still
>reply to them! I bet they are reading this debate right now! They still
>work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help with the Boney
>Grendels and they created the CDN which is a ***FREE*** service especially
>for third party people. I can think of many companys which would make you
>pay for the CDN but Cyberlife give it free as a service to us.
CDN is free, yes. HOWEVER. It only benefits DEVELOPERS. I am NOT a
developer, neither are most of the people on this newsgroup.
Therefore, I use this newsgroup and am not a part of the CDN and do
not really care that the CDN is free.
And to inform you... I have never seen a gaming "community" have
something like the CDN where they have to pay for it. Most of what's
developed is done 100% third party. Okay. So. Great. CL supports
developers. I'm not one and have too much time on my hands to become
one just so I know that the company that makes a game I play cares
about me.
CL reads this. Yes. Emy's established that fact. They do not, however,
post here and haven't since, oh gee, about the time C2 came out...
>Yes, the truth hurts but what hurts more is accusation after
>accusationsafter accusation and that is just not fair to the Cyberlife team.
Oh, and I'm sure that paying $50 for a game that was supposed to be
what the previous version was meant to be is very fair. Great logic,
there. The truth may hurt, but they've got our money. Poor them.
Emily Sachs
ant wrote:
>
> <snip a whole lotta junk :)>
>
> BTW anyone who wants my email address just has to ask in the
> newsgroup.
Heh, can I have your email address? There's something I'd like to send you...
;)
> ant
Indigo
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>> To many cooks.......
>.......make what I hope is a very detailed game!
Try:
"Too many cooks spoil the broth."
>> But some could have be caught by better testing
>I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different things
>that could go wrong because games nowadays are far more detailed and
>advanced.
Many of which can be caught by outside beta testing. Could you imagine
what more of a mess Windows would be if they just did in-house
testing??
>> As to Ali's artical, I don't think I'm the only one who thought it was
>> unfairly biased, both in intro and the selection of quotes, which seemed
>> mostly to come from last August/September.
>It was slightly biased in my opinion. What scares me is that Ali actually
>took the time to find those quotes!!! 3:-)
Slightly biased?? ::snickers::
Paul Richardson
Noigea <noi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990730031652...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
>
>Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask
for
> >it.
>
> I agree completely. CL is still coming to acg? if so, why don't we tell
them
> what we want instead of bemoaning our lack of having it now.
CL still reads a.g.c
>
> >>The ecosystem was a nice try, but,
> >> correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't an ecosystem mean that each part of
> >> it is dependant on the other parts?
>
> i was thinking about maybe cobbling up some cobs that work in a system,
but
> quit before I started. It was difficult to even think about how the
system
> would work. so cut them a break, they did a pretty good job with the
plants
> and ants.
Nicely said. I would like to see some anti-CL'ers try and make an ecosystem
for C2.
> hey CL, why aren't you defending yourself here? your silence is
disturbing.
They are letting us defend them! :-)
Paul Richardson
> > Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the
Off-Topic,
> > Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their
newsgroups
> > more?
> So you presume to know Cyberlife's motivation? Not even I did that, and
I've
> gotten an email from Toby trying to explain one reason.
I'm just repeating thing I've heard, things in chat, and things in E-Mails.
The above reason is probably the most logical one. If anyone has the real
reason or another one then please tell us!
> > OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me.
> Are you the perfect "every user"? Can what benefits you benefit all? I
didn't
> think so...
I meant that as a new developer without any idea what to do it really
helped. I know it can't help everyone in the community as not everyone is a
developer or is a member of the CDN. After all, it is a free service
designed to help people.
> > I myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has
helped a
> > lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily
charge
> > money for it.
> Oh, great. They ignore most of the community, but it's "OK" because they
do it
> for free. ;)
They don't ignore the community. They take note of our opinions and view in
a.g.c, they create addons and the CDN to help people, and they release
helpful things on their site for C1 and C2 users. Without the community,
Creatures would be nothing. Cyberlife know this so I think it would be in
their own best interests to keep us all happy as possible.
You can keep most of the people happy some of the time.
You can keep some of the people happy most of the time.
>> If you aren't on the internet then you're screwed anyway! :)
> People *should* be able to get said updates off the net. People *should*
be
> able to use the game out of the box without the updates. Etc, etc.
The game is playable without updates. It may not be perfect without updates
but it is still quite playable.
> > Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
> > here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail!
> Yes, but some of the FAQ's are about: Unconscious norns, activating
powerups,
> using the splicer, what to do with Creatures related files, getting norns
to eat
> and sleep, etc. These AREN'T "tiny details", these can make the
difference
> between enjoying C2 and having a brand new coaster.
When I played C2, I didn't need any help at all. Everything I needed was in
the manual. In game all the features seemed easy enough to use if you have
common sense! ;-) <jk>
> The gene splicer is mentioned once. The "stars" weren't mentioned at all.
Cobs
> and the like were mentioned in passing, though their use was not
described, or
> mentioned. These are things *I* spent time writing FAQ's on, that they
> should've bothered covering in the manual.
OK. I agree that the topics above should have been mentioned.
> > Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or
in
> > the LKs which they don't have to.
>Yes, they *do* have to. Though I think it'd probably have been easier on
them
> if they made a usable game in the first place.
It _IS_ a usable game without updates. I played it without updates for a few
weeks and everything seemed fine.
> > They are trying to do the best they can
> > in a bad situation. So what if Cyberlife don't post here? I just don't
get
> > it. If a company doesn't post in a newsgroup it doesn't mean they have
> > abandoned it.
> This entire post was not about CL not posting here -- it was more about
their
> general lack of regard for the community in it's entirety.
Such as.......
> > Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address
thier
> > concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other people
> > complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk to one
person
> > with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!
> Because for every person who says what they think in a post, there are 5
others
> who think the same but are afraid to ask.
Why are they afraid to ask? Cyberlife aren't monsters but real living people
who are happy enough to answer questions.
> > Phew!!!
> > :::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::
> Why are you tired? I wasn't aware spouting propaganda was so thought
consuming.
Well, when I spout propaganda I'll see if I am tired. The reason I wrote
that was because I am in the middle of my school holidays and any form of
debte leaves me a withered, tired creature :)
> PS - EDIT!
PS- I DO!
--
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson
Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson
Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson
Martha Brummett
wrote:
>2.) Expanded vocabulary.
>Yes, this was a failure to deliver. In some ways they managed, but in
>others they botched it so badly that they shouldn't have bothered in the
>first place. While more object categories were made, some old (but
>useful!) ones were removed. Worse yet, simple food got split into three
>different competing categories, and within some of them (plant and
>fruit) the behavior of individual objects wasn't consistent across
>sub-types. I cite the "plant" of the hatchery mushrooms, which can be
>eaten, vs. the "plant" of the tomato stem which does nothing but sit
>there and uselessly attract the Norn's attention. Why call music objects
>"toy", anyway?
I will add that enough noun category slots existed to have a
one-to-one (more-or-less) correlation with category and drive
reducers, which would have made learning somewhat easier for the
creatures. This, however, was not attempted. Tools are available for
world creation, which could allow experimentation with this, but new
C2 worlds are not yet created, due IMO to the difficulty of editing
the background image on a computer not set up specifically for
graphics.
Martha Brummett (C2 species range 39001-39100)
a.g.c Queen of OT Information and Amusement
Piratical Maid-of-All-Work, P.B. Jolly Weeble
mailto:mo...@diac.com
Bonadrey Nornery
http://www.diac.com/~mokus/bonadrey.html
Emily Sachs
Paul Richardson wrote:
>
> I'm just repeating thing I've heard, things in chat, and things in E-Mails.
> The above reason is probably the most logical one. If anyone has the real
> reason or another one then please tell us!
I think this stands alone, I won't bother rebutting.
> I meant that as a new developer without any idea what to do it really
> helped. I know it can't help everyone in the community as not everyone is a
> developer or is a member of the CDN. After all, it is a free service
> designed to help people.
I understand the CDN is useful for developers. I've acknowledged that it's
useful for developers. But developers arent' the entire community; they're not
even most of the community. In the long run, most of the community is the kind
of user that needs help just to play, rather than in the development or more
technical aspects. The key to the community is helping these people, and CL's
just not doing the most admirable job in that respect.
> They don't ignore the community. They take note of our opinions and view in
> a.g.c,
<snort>
> they create addons
Which are released months after they're promised, if ever...
> and the CDN to help people,
To help the people that they can eventually exploit to make *more* money...
> and they release
> helpful things on their site for C1 and C2 users.
Eye-candy useless cobs which conveniently ignore blaring bugs...
> Without the community,
> Creatures would be nothing. Cyberlife know this so I think it would be in
> their own best interests to keep us all happy as possible.
It would be in their own best interests...makes you wonder why they don't try
very hard to do it. :)
> You can keep most of the people happy some of the time.
> You can keep some of the people happy most of the time.
Or you can be like Cyberlife, and expect people to be happy with pwetty pictuwes
with no decent game behind them, and wind up displeasing almost everyone.
> The game is playable without updates. It may not be perfect without updates
> but it is still quite playable.
'Scuse me, but did we get different games? I got C2, original version. I'm not
sure what game you're talking about.
Playable, sure, if you don't mind norns that die in two minutes and a ton of
blatant bugs.
> When I played C2, I didn't need any help at all. Everything I needed was in
> the manual.
Then you must've also gotten a different manual than I did, 'cuz the one I got
isn't worthy of lining my sister's bird's cage.
> In game all the features seemed easy enough to use if you have
> common sense! ;-) <jk>
Common sense is not so common. ;) And a lot of what seems simple to some can be
*very* hard to figure out for others -- people writing games/manuals need to
take that into account.
> OK. I agree that the topics above should have been mentioned.
Wow, a concession. I swoon. ;)
> It _IS_ a usable game without updates. I played it without updates for a few
> weeks and everything seemed fine.
I played it without updates for a few weeks and everything seemed like a poorly
made game. Go figure.
> > This entire post was not about CL not posting here -- it was more about their
> > general lack of regard for the community in it's entirety.
>
> Such as.......
Last time I checked, you could read... Try processing some of that which you
read, please? I don't like repeating myself a million times -- that's your
forte, not mine.
> Why are they afraid to ask? Cyberlife aren't monsters but real living people
> who are happy enough to answer questions.
Why should they need to ask if someone already has?
> Well, when I spout propaganda I'll see if I am tired. The reason I wrote
> that was because I am in the middle of my school holidays and any form of
> debte leaves me a withered, tired creature :)
Oh, you think this is a debate? Heh, how quaint.
> > PS - EDIT!
>
> PS- I DO!
PS - BS!
--
AntiNorn
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>So what? The point is, is that they were actually released. At least
>Cyberlife didn't sweep it all under the floorboards. Cyberlife took the time
>to release a free addon as soon as they could and as far as I know, they
>were under no obligation to do so.
>
"So what?".. I'm assuming you weren't here for the huge build-up to
C2... People had to sit around for weeks waiting for a playable
version of the game after they'd already bought it..
>
>
>Well,..... I like german!
>
How nice..
>
>The genome thing with Slink and Cyberlife will only fully be know between
>Slink and CL. Anything else is speculation!
>
Umm, no it's fully know by everyone.. Slink posted the whole thing,
of course CL ignored the whole issue and left AGC..
>
>Cyberlife did include night/day but they didn't include the graphics because
>it would take up far too much space and wouldn't have suited system
>requirements of that time. C3 will be bigger because PC's are better and
>faster. You are saying that it is Cyberlife's fault it has to comply with
>average system specs
>
Umm, you don't pay attention much, do you? C3 was being developed at
the same time C2 was being developed.. CL has all but admitted that..
You can't sit there and say that CL was anticipating everyone was
going to buy a brand new computer in the year between C2 and C3... I
don't see how anyone could after forking over money to CL on a monthly
basis for more eye candy..
>
>If you delete all the plants then certain animals will die. If you delete
>all the animals then certain plants will die. That is the ecosystem in C2.
>
That's the whole point: If you delete all of the plants, the animals
don't die..
>
>Before. The Cyberlife Like Kits are good quality, with great gadgets and
>norns etc. Most addons cost £20.00 but Cyberlife addons are usually only
>half the price!
>
oh, yeah, like that pop-rocket.. real high quality stuff.. and most
addons for other games contain *content* the crap CL puts in their
addons is stuff that is usually provided for free by other
companies(ie: TA, SC, FS, etc..).. Now if CL had put out addons with
new worlds like they promised well over a year ago, I can see paying
money for that..
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't C1 Genetics but uncompatable with C2
>Genetics?
>
yes, but the propaganda from CL is: "Import your favorite C1 Norns
into C2!!" they don't bother to tell you that it's like giving your
best friend a lobotomy..
>
>Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask for
>it.
>
It was one of the very first things mentioned to CL besides the faulty
genome and the world-wrap bug.
>
>I agree with that but remember that Cyberlife did release them eventaully
>while they are busy making C3. AND they are *free*.
>
you just don't get it, do you? They were "busy making C3" while C2
was being put out... That's why C2 is so dicked up and it takes
months (or even a year) to get things that we already know are done..
Take a look at the pre-release pictures of C2, gee what's that? it's
a boney grendel... Now tell me one good reason why it took a year to
go from that screenshot to us? Keep in mind once again that these
Grendels were promised to us before C2 even came out...
jimbo
>>CL's abandonment of AGC was another.
>
>CL hasn't abandoned AGC. They post more in the CDN Newsgroups becuase they
>are more pest free etc but they still patrol this newsgroup and reply to a
>few messages.
i personally haven't noticed them around for absolutely ages. nothing like
when they used to pop in here often before c2 was released last year....
--
jimbo
official a.g.c. fingerpuppet ubermeister
fingerpuppets! fingerpuppets! get 'em while they're hot!
chirpy deck swabber of the jolly weeble
http://surf.to/jimbo123 - 200 norns, grendels, ettins, hybrids; jayd's cobs, mr nstuff's
cobs, plus bucketloads of others, creature gallery, links, music and a PHOTO OF
JIMBO! you want more?!?
if for some reason the above url works not, here is the full one:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cavern/1556
"i thought i was wrong once. i was mistaken." - karl kennedy
"hope is the one thing we will always have. hopefully." - me!
world's worst misquote:
"the end of the world is nice."
"i've been birched by naked women in a sauna." - lis
"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"
and most importantly,
"JIMBO IS COOL." hehe.
you may have noticed that there are few capital letters in my posts. frankly, i can't be
arsed with them.
the all new serious bit!
"prejudice burns brighter when it's all we have to burn"
"there is never redemption, any fool can regret yesterday"
"the centre of humanity is cruelty"
"the only way to gain approval is by exploiting the very thing that cheapens me"
"the weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong" - all words from
the gospel of the msp. respect!
jimbo
>Hi,
>
>Personally, I don't agree with anti C3 views. How can you say how good or
>bad a game is from a few screenshots. People who liked C2 say C3 will be
>great, people who disliked C2 say C3 will be rubbish. In the article,
>Cyberlife admit that they only had one person working on the C2 genome but
>they now have 'FIVE' people. Surely, that is some indication as to how this
>advanced games there are more things that could go wrong and nobody could
>spot every small error. If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
>leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace. Give Cyberlife a chance and
>everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't included came out as a *free*
>any company has to make a profit to pay their staff and to continue with
>their 2020 vision. No other company in the world works so hard with their
>community members to create games, add-ons AND freebies for their enjoyment.
>Please remember that the people at Cyberlife are *people* and can be hurt by
>people's accusations. Next time, please consider evidence before speculation
>and please think of people's feelings. :)
i think the general feeling among the more negatively-oriented peeps here is
that cyberlife's press releases and hype are not to be believed... after the song
and dance they led us with c2 and all the promised things that were either
wrongly implemented or just completely missing (see an's post), the way i
see it is that cyberlife have a fair old job to do to convince us that c3 will be
worth buying, rather than churning out the same old tired press releases of
how everything will be improved when, in fact, the changes are mostly
cosmetic and profit-maximising.
and re this line:
>If you 'don't like C3' then don't buy it and please
>leave the rest of us alone to play it in peace.
is that basically saying anyone who disagrees with the almighty cl has no
place here? surely some sort of open, intelligent debate is better than just a
bunch of people gathering around going on about how good a game is without
seeing some of its faults?
jimbo
>> >Cyberlife
>> >delivered practically everything they promised in C2 and what wasn't
>> >included came out as a *free* add-on. Not a program that you have to pay
>> >for but *FREE.*
>
>> realised? There is, imho, no excuse for waiting any more than a week to
>put
>> it up.
>
>The fact is, is that Cyberlife made the upgrade and that it was posted for
>free, not how long it took to be released.
no, the fact is that it was a cynical ploy to get people to buy the life kit (=cash
for cyberlife) rather than a kind-hearted attempt to fix the bugs for all those
who wouldn't line their pockets with yet more cash. they already *had* the file,
why couldn't they just post it immediately? that's a serious lack of respect for
your customers.
jimbo
>>Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
>>Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
>>figures like that!
>
>I've not seen 1300 people working on norn genomes.
>Lis and LJR have the best out there so far. Third party. That's TWO
>people. TWO. So then 100 cyberlife employees to 2 third party
>developers?!!?!! Ouch. Not saying much.
which isn't even taking into account the fact that these people actually have
jobs etc outside c2, and have to find their own spare time to make these
norns. compare that to a full-time job at cl where they're supposed to do
nothing else *but* program the game, and i find it *slightly* worrying to say the
least.
Carolyn Horn
What a pity I missed seeing the page in question; it sounds
fascinating. It appears that Ali has taken it down to rewrite it. I
should have liked to have seen if he had included any of the comments I
made at the time...
In article: <8E1288F20cdi...@news.7cities.net>
cdi...@7cities.nospam (Patrick Dixon) writes:
>
> Meh, you mispelt my name, but I can forgive you for that. However, you
> make it sound like a day after C@ was released, all the bug-fixes were
> up for d/l, which they weren't. And yes, CL might not have had much
> money for manuals,
I seem to recall at the time that they sold the Strategy Guide,
separately, not very long after the US release of the game. IIRC, that
added to the furore on this newsgroup.
Cheers
Carolyn
--
http://www.jannart.on.ca/caro/carotoc.htm
Home of Slink's Specials; her C1 & C2 COBs, Utilites,
Scriptorium & Reference notes, and creatures...
including her C306 creatures updated to C307.
Carolyn Horn
>
> Those 'fake pop-in' norns are there so that we don't discover what
> the new norns truly look like. If we found out, it would be like
> sneaking downstairs on christmas eve and opening your gifts a day
> early! It is meant to be a surprise what they look like. Give
> Cyberlife a bit a credit for this!
Eh? Why is it meant to be a surprise -- do people really like to be
tantalised like that? Very strange... I tend to like to know what I'm
buying in advance, so I can make an informed decision on whether or not
to buy it.
[snip loads of chat]
> They may no longer post here but they still read messages and they
> still reply to them! I bet they are reading this debate right now!
I'm sure they are. The problem that some people have with the way they
reply to messages is that they don't do so publicly. I know they have
their reasons, but it is a fact that it does them little credit in the
public eye.
> They still work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help
> with the Boney Grendels and they created the CDN which is a
> ***FREE*** service especially for third party people. I can think
> of many companys which would make you pay for the CDN but Cyberlife
> give it free as a service to us.
Just to keep the record straight, the original draft for the CDN
included that we would have to pay for it (not much, but some) -- and
sign away certain rights. That got rather heavily stomped on by the
a.g.c community.
Carolyn Horn
In article: <37A0C84E...@mediaone.net> Emily Sachs
<emy-...@mediaone.net> writes:
>
> When I joined agc, oh so long ago, CL members posted frequently,
> and not always completely on-topic. They acted like members of the
> community, though they were treated with due respect -- C1 was a
> great game, and we were a newsgroup of people in love with it. And
> life was good.
Yes, it was wasn't it <wistful sigh>
> With the creation of the CDN, and the release of C2, the posts
> stopped for the most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN
> newsgroups, leaving us fend for ourselves, basically.
> In an email Toby sent me, he extolled the CDN as proof of their
> concern for the community. Not the entire community is in the CDN.
> Not the entire community can benefit from the CDN. We're not all
> developers; we're not all even interested in the more technical
> aspects of Creatures. Many people, myself included, would like to
> just be able to enjoy a well programed game -- maybe enhance our
> knowledge of Biology, evolution, etc. The CDN doesn't do anything
> for me, though I am a member (technically, at least, though
> without that blasted cookie I can't get into the CDN site). I don't
> think I'm alone in that, either.
> The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with
> computer usage -- need is of a far more basic nature than what
> Cyberlife tends to provide with the CDN
I think that the idea is that us oldsters in this group are supposed to
lead newbies through the FAQs...
> (not to mention the fact
> that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are basically screwed).
Ah! This is a favourite hobby-horse of mine! Right from the start I
have mumbled about these poor souls.
> Why
> are people like Denise, Mae and and I writing FAQ's about things
> that should be in the manual? The expense of printing a manual
> acknowledged, I still don't see how they could've forgotten to
> mention some key points, such as the need for a creature to
> activate power-ups, or what the meaning of the "funky stars" are,
> much less how to help an unconscious norn -- these are things that
> had to be covered in FAQs, and were only learned by trail and
> error.
Yes -- it was a long haul of a trail, wasn't it... I recall gathering a
lot of the more serious complaints together in lists which I posted
here for CL to read; Toby and Mark did respond to those lists at the
time, which took a lot of heat out of the community anger. Like you, I
feel that it's a shame that they no longer post to this group at all;
I'd have thought that a suitable balance could be reached where they
wrote to let us know what was going on and to lay concerns to rest
publically -- but left the trolls etc alone. It means that the group is
left with a vague feeling, justified or not, that CL cares not a jot
about the community in here.
> What it seems to me is that Cyberlife only cares about users who
> can cover up their mistakes by creating updates and cobs that
> shouldn't be necessary in the first place. Heaven forbid they try
> to make said updates themselves -- no, they're too busy creating
> more eye-candy cobs that don't help anything, and a new game when
> they haven't even completed the ones they've got out. While I
> understand that's most likely an unfair observation, it's one
> aggravated by CL's apparent silence to agc more than it is helped.
> While I understand also that agc isn't the sum of the online
> Creatures users, it *is* one of the main components of it, and the
> community is based in focal points such as this newsgroup and chats
> like JRChat (as a note, I've never seen CL members in chat [besides
> Dillon/Alize's pathetic impersonation attempts, that is]).
This whole Chat thing is a mystery to me, I'm afraid; never could get
the hang of these newfangled devices <sits back in rocking-chair puffing
at pipe and wiping dewdrop from nose>
> Also in the email from Toby I mentioned earlier, he said that
> Cyberlife "couldn't" post to agc due to the undercurrent of
> animosity towards them (also, IMHO, intensified more than relieved
> by their silence). I admit that there is. Perhaps it's not
> completely justified, but there are many points to the arguments
> against them. Despite what Ali has said, there are many promises
> that weren't carried out by Cyberlife. There are many people who
> can't get what help they need from their undernourished manual and
> equally skimpy help file (and don't even start me on the forced IE
> install -- I'm still annoyed by that). The truth is that if
> Cyberlife valued us more, as customers should be valued, we
> wouldn't have such complaints, and we wouldn't have the
> provocation to create such animosity.
The enforced IE install -- Aaaargh!! Remember how many people's
installations it aborted?? I had to do a FAQ on that...
> Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as
> if not acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with
> it without expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but
> it must be used in a timely fashion. A simple post here and there
> addressing common concerns would do wonders for their image in the
> community, not to mention save them from writing 10 responses where
> only one was needed. That they're perfectly willing to do an
> interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
> something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see,
> is rather inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.
I wish I'd seen that interview -- Ali had taken down the page before I
could see it! Has anyone got a copy tucked away in their browser's
cache that they could send to me?
> Now that I've completely lost my train of thought, I think I'll
> give up. ;)
LOL...
Carolyn Horn
>
> > But some could have be caught by better testing
>
> I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different
> detailed and advanced.
But with plenty of testers given a few weeks in which to do peoper
testing, such "things that could go wrong" can be kept to a minimum.
There are some very complex games out there which have been well tested
and have only a few very obscure bugs (if any) in consequence.
CyberLife, please please make sure that you have more external testers
than for C2 and that you get them to test peoperly everything they can!
Carolyn Horn
>
> i for one would have liked to be able to read the original article
> before Ali took it down for revision, by the time his plug appeared
> over here it had already been removed form his page.....<grumble,
> mutter, plastic history...>
Yup, me too. I know I did a lot of posts at the time in question, and
would love to know if I was quoted/misquoted.
Carolyn Horn
<emy-...@mediaone.net> writes:
>
> Paul Richardson wrote:
[snip]
> > Cyberlife post to people personally so they can more easily address
> > thier concerns and reply to them individually without fifty other
> > people complaining at the same time. It would be like trying to talk
> > to one person with fifty others shouting in your ears!!!
>
> Because for every person who says what they think in a post, there are
> 5 others who think the same but are afraid to ask.
And this is precisely why I suggested a while back that it would be a
good idea for CL to have one person who responds carefully in a.g.c to
concerns which are aired in a.g.c. The idea that catching the
vociferous ones on a one-to-one basis will relieve bad feeling in the
group only really goes partway towards doing that. The silent lurkers
never get to read anything but the bad or the confused.
> > Phew!!!
> > :::Ricardo dies from tiredness::::
>
> Why are you tired? I wasn't aware spouting propaganda was so thought
> consuming.
>
> PS - EDIT!
<giggle>
Cheers
Noigea
is listening, and probably is taking our collective whining into account. I,
for one, am ignoring c3 until it comes out. Then i'll judge it. Post comments
on what you want, because....
0_o they're listening....
Craig Schafer
Noigea wrote:
> >Was this suggested to Cyberlife at all? We can't get stuff unless we ask for
> >it.
>
> I agree completely. CL is still coming to acg? if so, why don't we tell them
> what we want instead of bemoaning our lack of having it now.
>
I think some lurk, once got a reply from them via private e-mail.
>
Kylie
Lummox JR
> I will add that enough noun category slots existed to have a
> one-to-one (more-or-less) correlation with category and drive
> reducers, which would have made learning somewhat easier for the
> creatures. This, however, was not attempted. Tools are available for
> world creation, which could allow experimentation with this, but new
> C2 worlds are not yet created, due IMO to the difficulty of editing
> the background image on a computer not set up specifically for
> graphics.
Exactly!
Lumping "music" in with "toy" just made the "toy" class that much more
meaningless. Meanwhile, some of the "plant" objects could be picked up
and eaten while others were mere stalks, which *should* have been made
invisible to Norns so that no confusion would result. Plus, since fruit
comes in good and bad varieties, it would have made more sense to just
stick to the "plant" vs. "weed" nomenclature (what was up with that
"badplant" garbage, anyway?) and save the fruit slot for something more
deserving, like MUSIC.
And although on the surface I liked the idea of grouping the "nature"
objects together, because some were pleasant and others were not, it
turned out to be a bad grouping because Norns can't tell the difference
between the good items and the bad ones. A Norn that has been burned by
one of those wall torches will be afraid of a waterfall; kind of a silly
pairing. In this case, the old C1 system would have made a lot more
sense.
Also I don't see the point of separating teleporters from other
vehicles; a Norn doesn't need to know the difference. In fact having no
difference might provide the Norn with more of an impression that "A
mover takes me somewhere else"--something they could sense instantly
with the teleporter. The difference between "mover" and "leftright"
eludes me entirely; both are vehicles, both move, both would do the same
thing as far as Norns are concerned--why separate them?
Lummox JR
Noigea
>
I think the majority of us has had that happen ;)
Lummox JR
[snip][snip]
> > The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with
> > computer usage -- need is of a far more basic nature than what
> > Cyberlife tends to provide with the CDN
>
> I think that the idea is that us oldsters in this group are supposed to
> lead newbies through the FAQs...
I can see that. It's not all that unreasonable to expect that people
will help each other out like that, and for the most part we've done so
freely.
But, it's perfectly true that the CDN isn't for everyone. Beginning
users need some support, and I think at least a little should be
expected to come from Cyberlife.
> > (not to mention the fact
> > that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are basically screwed).
>
> Ah! This is a favourite hobby-horse of mine! Right from the start I
> have mumbled about these poor souls.
Yeah; it's a point I never even remember much, but it's all too true.
C2 isn't all that playable out of the box; what makes it good is the
host of third-party add-ons users like Lis Morris and myself, and
countless others I can't even begin to remember, have made. For C1, this
was merely what made it *better*.
> > Why
> > are people like Denise, Mae and and I writing FAQ's about things
> > that should be in the manual? The expense of printing a manual
> > acknowledged, I still don't see how they could've forgotten to
> > mention some key points, such as the need for a creature to
> > activate power-ups, or what the meaning of the "funky stars" are,
> > much less how to help an unconscious norn -- these are things that
> > had to be covered in FAQs, and were only learned by trail and
> > error.
>
> Yes -- it was a long haul of a trail, wasn't it... I recall gathering a
> lot of the more serious complaints together in lists which I posted
> here for CL to read; Toby and Mark did respond to those lists at the
> time, which took a lot of heat out of the community anger. Like you, I
> feel that it's a shame that they no longer post to this group at all;
> I'd have thought that a suitable balance could be reached where they
> wrote to let us know what was going on and to lay concerns to rest
> publically -- but left the trolls etc alone. It means that the group is
> left with a vague feeling, justified or not, that CL cares not a jot
> about the community in here.
I think the main reason for infrequent posts about the state of things
was that as far as C1 and C2 were concerned, there wasn't much of a
state at all. It seems to me that they were busy at the time developing
C3--when the larger priority was to control the damage caused by the
release of C2 before it was ready.
> > What it seems to me is that Cyberlife only cares about users who
> > can cover up their mistakes by creating updates and cobs that
> > shouldn't be necessary in the first place. Heaven forbid they try
> > to make said updates themselves -- no, they're too busy creating
> > more eye-candy cobs that don't help anything, and a new game when
> > they haven't even completed the ones they've got out. While I
> > understand that's most likely an unfair observation, it's one
> > aggravated by CL's apparent silence to agc more than it is helped.
> > While I understand also that agc isn't the sum of the online
> > Creatures users, it *is* one of the main components of it, and the
> > community is based in focal points such as this newsgroup and chats
> > like JRChat (as a note, I've never seen CL members in chat [besides
> > Dillon/Alize's pathetic impersonation attempts, that is]).
>
> This whole Chat thing is a mystery to me, I'm afraid; never could get
> the hang of these newfangled devices <sits back in rocking-chair puffing
> at pipe and wiping dewdrop from nose>
Hee hee.
Since we dropped ICE, Creatures chat hasn't been so bad. Stop in
sometime. :)
> > Also in the email from Toby I mentioned earlier, he said that
> > Cyberlife "couldn't" post to agc due to the undercurrent of
> > animosity towards them (also, IMHO, intensified more than relieved
> > by their silence). I admit that there is. Perhaps it's not
> > completely justified, but there are many points to the arguments
> > against them. Despite what Ali has said, there are many promises
> > that weren't carried out by Cyberlife. There are many people who
> > can't get what help they need from their undernourished manual and
> > equally skimpy help file (and don't even start me on the forced IE
> > install -- I'm still annoyed by that). The truth is that if
> > Cyberlife valued us more, as customers should be valued, we
> > wouldn't have such complaints, and we wouldn't have the
> > provocation to create such animosity.
>
> The enforced IE install -- Aaaargh!! Remember how many people's
> installations it aborted?? I had to do a FAQ on that...
Oh gads, don't get me started. I loathe IE with a searing passion I
normally reserve for certain overplayed pop groups. Anyway, I never
figured out what value there was in using HTML-based help when the old
help files were just as easy to use and had a nice, streamlined system
for accessing them.
> > Why does Cyberlife respond to concerns posted to agc in email, as
> > if not acknowledging that others might see the post and agree with
> > it without expressing that opinion? Silence has it's benifits, but
> > it must be used in a timely fashion. A simple post here and there
> > addressing common concerns would do wonders for their image in the
> > community, not to mention save them from writing 10 responses where
> > only one was needed. That they're perfectly willing to do an
> > interview that so many users will see, yet not willing to post
> > something to agc, where nearly the same group of people will see,
> > is rather inconsistent, and makes one wonder about their motives.
>
> I wish I'd seen that interview -- Ali had taken down the page before I
> could see it! Has anyone got a copy tucked away in their browser's
> cache that they could send to me?
I can send it to you, if no one else has by the time you read this.
Lummox JR
Lummox JR
[snip]
> > With the creation of the CDN, and the release of C2, the posts stopped for
> the
> > most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN newsgroups, leaving us fend for
> > ourselves, basically.
>
> Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their newsgroups
> more?
Heck, that's the same reason I withdrew for a while myself. But
Cyberlife needs to keep active on this group, I think, since it's the
community's newsgroup.
[snip]
> OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me. I
> myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has helped a
> lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily charge
> money for it.
Not really, no. In C1 the info about the CAOS language wasn't well
known, but I collected what I could from everywhere I could and posted
reference docs out the wazoo, hoping to end the information drought that
was preventing decent COBs and such from being developed. (For that
matter, I also created NornPose, ending the graphics drought.) Others
played a part in ending the information drought, but Cyberlife wasn't
one of them. Third-party users posted all the info they could, and
finally a lot more creativity began to spring forth.
(As a side note, I think Cyberlife really should have developed a
program like NornPose once it was known that people would want to use
more graphics for their Web pages than just the skimpy collection
Cyberlife provided.)
They can't charge for something like the CDN because 1) they essentially
tried that approach already, with the "contract" thing, and it received
such a vicious backlash that they changed it, and 2) users will
inevitably find out all the info they can, the hard way, and post it on
their own. Information monopoly is impractical on the Internet.
> > The support that beginning users -- one's not as experienced with computer
> usage
> > -- need is of a far more basic nature than what Cyberlife tends to provide
> with
> > the CDN (not to mention the fact that C2 users who aren't on the 'net are
> > basically screwed).
>
> If you aren't on the internedt then you're screwed anyway! :)
Agreed, but that doesn't mean a user shouldn't expect a working product.
They need it to work all the more, really.
[snip]
> Cyberlife care about all users. They release COBs free for the game or in
> the LKs which they don't have to.
[snip]
Did you miss Emy's point about the eye-candy COBs? They're meaningless.
It's like the proliferation of C1 food COBs; after a while we all
wondered what the point was.
The Life Kits contain nothing useful whatsoever, except perhaps for EXE
updates that should have been free. Even the new Norns Cyberlife has put
out are based on their original genome (254--the bug-fixed version),
which was thick with design flaws! And I'm certainly not paying to fix
the vocabulary problem that Cyberlife botched in the first place, and
took their time fixing.
Lummox JR
Paul Richardson
> >norns truly look like. If we found out, it would be like sneaking
downstairs
> >on christmas eve and opening your gifts a day early! It is meant to be a
> >surprise what they look like. Give Cyberlife a bit a credit for this!
>
> Why bother releasing screenshots at all then??
> Or system requirements??
> Or any info at all??
Cyberlife need people to know that C3 is coming out so that it gets
publicity. It doesn't mean that they want us to know every single tiny
detail. What is the point of life without the unexpected?
> >In certain cases more is better. More people would spot more mistakes.
More
> >people could creae more different areas of the brain. More people would
help
> >make it more detailed instead of having one person take three months.
> More people OUTSIDE the company would spot more mistakes. Anyone who's
> ever designed a website knows this. The usability of it needs to be
> centered around people who know nill about
> designing/creating/developing it.
Not really. I have a big website and I checked it over a lot. There were
some faults with it but that was due to my lack of knowledge of the HTML
language. Creatures needs experienced people testing it becuase it is hard
to tell if something is emergant behavior or a fault within a norn. With
such an advanced game, it needs people who know what they are doing to test
it.
> If C3 is supposed to be coming out in November, the outside beta
> testing should begin ASAP. 3 months of beta testing seems good to me.
> Think it'll happen?? Well, I'm not holding my breath...
It's up to Cyberlife how much they test and the real debate here is how much
we trust them to make a good job of testing.
> >Cyberlife have tried over and over to fix those faults with patches. Now
> >they are moving on the create something better.
>
> Uh.... it's their game. They made it. The bugs should be fixed BEFORE
> another game costing another $40 gets started. And they shouldn't
> depend on third party developers to fix the bugs for them, either.
They don't depend on 3rd parties. It's nice for them to know how much we are
doing for Creatures (Cobs and stuff) but in the end Cyberlife try their
hardest to fix major problems such as the genome.
> >Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
> >Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys
with
> >figures like that!
> I've not seen 1300 people working on norn genomes.
> Lis and LJR have the best out there so far. Third party. That's TWO
> people. TWO. So then 100 cyberlife employees to 2 third party
> developers?!!?!! Ouch. Not saying much.
Well the whole Cyberlife team doesn't work on the genome! What I'm trying to
show is that the Cyberlife team is greatly outnumbered compared to third
party developers so it is no wonder that most stuff comes from 3rd party.
> CDN is free, yes. HOWEVER. It only benefits DEVELOPERS. I am NOT a
> developer, neither are most of the people on this newsgroup.
> Therefore, I use this newsgroup and am not a part of the CDN and do
> not really care that the CDN is free.
You may not be a developer but the fact is, is that Cyberlife created the
CDN for the good of the whole community and maintain it without it bringing
money to the company. Developers get knowledge and tools - Developers create
something- Object is released - Everyone benefits. In the end, whether you
are a member or not, the CDN still benefits you in some way.
> CL reads this. Yes. Emy's established that fact. They do not, however,
> post here and haven't since, oh gee, about the time C2 came out...
As I said in another post, they reply to people personally, and try to sort
out trouble individually without other people getting in the way. One to one
communication is a lot easier than one to one hundred.
> >Yes, the truth hurts but what hurts more is accusation after
> >accusationsafter accusation and that is just not fair to the Cyberlife
team.
> Oh, and I'm sure that paying $50 for a game that was supposed to be
> what the previous version was meant to be is very fair. Great logic,
> there. The truth may hurt, but they've got our money. Poor them.
You don't have to buy the game. Cyberlife don't have a choice if people
accuse them. Yes, the truth may hurt and the truth should be told but
constant accusations is just plain nasty.
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
> Indigo
Paul Richardson
> "Too many cooks spoil the broth."
Please stop. You're making me hungry. :)
> >> But some could have be caught by better testing
> >I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different
things
> >that could go wrong because games nowadays are far more detailed and
> >advanced.
> Many of which can be caught by outside beta testing. Could you imagine
> what more of a mess Windows would be if they just did in-house
> testing??
Microsoft is a huge worldwide company. Cyberlife is a small Cambridge
company. Cyberlife may not have the money or resources to organise outside
beta testing. Cyberlife can test their games any way they like but no matter
how much it is tested it will never be 100% bug free.
--
TTYL
From ricar...@freeuk.com
ICQ # is 41092093
Not a newbie, just a dumb oldbie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul's Creatures Gaming Page http://home.freeuk.net/ricardo2000/
Home of the 'Creatures-Fan' Group We have Creatures Arcade Games,
Screensavers, COBs, Utilities, Strange Creatures for adoption, Articles,
Shadow Norns, Stories, Poems, Chat, LOADS OF HINTS + TIPS,
and LOADS more!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bart, I don't mean to alarm you, but there may be a boogie man or
boogie men in the house! -Homer Simpson
Poor man, he's got all the money in the world, but there's one thing he
can't buy......a dinosaur -Homer Simpson
Marge, can you set the oven on cool? - Homer Simpson
> Indigo
Ping
<snip snip>
> I look back now and, with hindsight, see the
> response was a bit vascillating and misleading--but nevertheless it
> implied that true sprite editing would indeed be possible. Given Toby's
> earlier comments on the subject, the promise was implied.
All gaming communities thrive on trust. Trust in the game developers to
release patches, fixes and help with their game. C1 was great like that, in
early 1997 Cyberlife couldn't do enough to help it's users. But I noticed
when C2 came out that things started to slow down. Actually it had been
going on for some time.
I find it odd that there was such a long period of time between C1 and C2,
yet only a few months between the release of C2 and the
announcement of C3, prolly about six months or so. Why? why couldn't
Cyberlife have patched up C2 before working on a sequel and releasing all of
these shiney new addons? prolly because it's easier for them to make a new
game than patch their current ones.
Personally I feel like they've abandoned C2. Like C1 was abandoned long
ago. I'm guilty of it myself. I lost the will to develop anything new once
the errors in C2 started to show themselves.
I realise that they worked hard on C2, but it _was_ full of problems before
third party developers came in and did what Cyberlife should have done in
the EAP.
<snip>
> (Am I bitter that I wasn't part of the EAP? Heck yeah; I should have
> been part of it in June, the very latest the EAP should have shipped. I
> was promised no less by Cyberlife.
<snip>
I could post a few choice E-mails from the lady who selected people for the
EAP, but iss' not really my place to.
I don't think they could have changed your URL anyway. That entire
site was an Imagemap, thus making any kind of update to the site near
impossible.
> how come Cyberlife didn't move faster to fix
> them? And when those complaints stacked up, why wasn't C3 pushed back a
> few months (at least!) to re-examine the concept?
Money and merchandising.
C1 - Not very well known.
C2 - Bigger audience
C3 - Projected bigger audience than C1 and C2
-Ping
Replace nospam with albia for a valid E-mail address
ICQ: 6283750
"He's dead Jim, you get his tricoder and I'll get his wallet!"
Lummox JR
[snip]
> I meant that as a new developer without any idea what to do it really
> helped. I know it can't help everyone in the community as not everyone is a
> developer or is a member of the CDN. After all, it is a free service
> designed to help people.
Nope. The CDN was a service originally intended to help Cyberlife. It
became free after the public outcry that Cyberlife was hoarding its
developer info.
[snip]
> They don't ignore the community. They take note of our opinions and view in
> a.g.c, they create addons and the CDN to help people, and they release
> helpful things on their site for C1 and C2 users. Without the community,
> Creatures would be nothing. Cyberlife know this so I think it would be in
> their own best interests to keep us all happy as possible.
Name one (free) add-on that was actually helpful, Paul. I dare you.
The only worthwhile add-on I can think of would be the EXE update in one
of the Life Kits that fixes their vocabulary botch. That was supposedly
going to be released in a free update. Not only did the
update--essentially a bug fix--come too late, but it came for a price.
Gimme a break.
[snip]
> >> If you aren't on the internet then you're screwed anyway! :)
> > People *should* be able to get said updates off the net. People *should*
> be
> > able to use the game out of the box without the updates. Etc, etc.
>
> The game is playable without updates. It may not be perfect without updates
> but it is still quite playable.
Bull, Paul. Use your head. There are *several* bugs in the game
out-of-box, and many design flaws. This is what users can expect right
out of the box:
Bugs:
- The 252 Norn genome (design flaws + errors in making the genes)
- Norns lose the ability to reproduce because of a misplaced
emitter.
- The world wraparound bug
- Install problems with Internet Explorer (should have used a regular
help file)
Design flaws:
- The 254 Norn genome (what 252 was supposed to be)
(This counts toward the out-of-box design flaws because 252 has
all the same problems.)
- Norns die too early.
- Norns bump into walls.
- Norns don't eat (often).
- Norns rarely sleep, yet are always tired.
- One-Hour Stupidity Syndrome: Norns forget just about everything
after an hour of life.
- Norns have numerous pregnancy problems.
- The vocabulary
- Overlarge words like "badplant" vs. "weed", "implement" vs.
"tool"
- Poor categorization
- No way to change the built-in words
- No way to turn off the powerup "feature", which many users didn't
want.
C2 is barely playable out-of-box because of the Norns alone.
[snip]
> When I played C2, I didn't need any help at all. Everything I needed was in
> the manual. In game all the features seemed easy enough to use if you have
> common sense! ;-) <jk>
I think a lot was in the manual, but a lot more could have been
included. Most of what *was* there needed to be read very carefully, and
I think C1 taught us that most newbies don't read the manual as
completely as they should.
[snip]
> >Yes, they *do* have to. Though I think it'd probably have been easier on
> them
> > if they made a usable game in the first place.
>
> It _IS_ a usable game without updates. I played it without updates for a few
> weeks and everything seemed fine.
Everything seemed fine? How sad is *that*, Paul? It took me all of half
an hour to realize the Norn genome wasn't up to snuff. Some others
figured it out more quickly.
As stated above, it's not usable without updates. Leastwise, not unless
you use a *really* broad definition of "usable"--that it runs and
doesn't crash right away.
Lummox JR
RædWØrd§mith
the following on a piece of paper marked "<37A1DC...@aol.com>" and
put it in an envelope addressed to alt.games.creatures
>Bull, Paul. Use your head. There are *several* bugs in the game
>out-of-box, and many design flaws. This is what users can expect right
>out of the box:
>
>Bugs:
>- The 252 Norn genome (design flaws + errors in making the genes)
> - Norns lose the ability to reproduce because of a misplaced
> emitter.
>- The world wraparound bug
Although not really a bug, the overall world design also has what I
consider fatal errors. For instance, just getting out of the incubator
room can take quite a bit of work. Getting a Norn from point A to point B
can take the good half of an hour. Hopefully the New 3rd party worlds
coming out in a few months will change that.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Remember:
NDAY: 9.9.99 - Are you prepared for it?
...k?
Nic (RedWord)Smith, AGC XZQTNer.
------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Richardson
I've decided to stop my involvement in this rguement. I haven't the time to
reply to all these different posts about the topics. I still think Cyberlife
is a good company who will make a good job of C3 and I am still sticking to
my earlier arguements but after 10+ posts on the topic I really haven't the
time to keep replying.
I also don't think it is right to keep sticking up for Cyberlife when they
wont get involved themself. Until Cyberlife start argueing back in a.g.c I'm
retiring from the arguement.
:::Salutes Cyberlife:::
Grendels
ecosystem
> for C2.
>
I'm not Anti-Cyberlife but i'm considering designing an ecosystem, or at
least a plant-animal ecosystem. Maybe when i get round to creatiung a world
(the sys reqs would be high i supoose, but then, i have a PIII)
Grendels
NORNGod
>
Agreed, there's a big point: trusting them to test it. After the hideous
job they did of 'testing' C2 I wouldn't trust them to taste-test a
peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
--
NORNGod - nor...@fast.net
--------------------------
Visit NORNGod's NORNMania!
http://www.norngod.com
--
But since that isn't working
at the moment, try:
http://206.208.47.82
NORNGod
>
> > Try:
> > "Too many cooks spoil the broth."
>
> Please stop. You're making me hungry. :)
>
> > >> But some could have be caught by better testing
> > >I understand that but with games nowadays there are so many different
> things
> > >that could go wrong because games nowadays are far more detailed and
> > >advanced.
> > Many of which can be caught by outside beta testing. Could you imagine
> > what more of a mess Windows would be if they just did in-house
> > testing??
>
> Microsoft is a huge worldwide company. Cyberlife is a small Cambridge
> company. Cyberlife may not have the money or resources to organise outside
> beta testing. Cyberlife can test their games any way they like but no matter
> how much it is tested it will never be 100% bug free.
>
I don't think you totally understand what people are saying, Paul. It
wouldn't have damaged CL's back account too much if they would have
selected a few people to organize an outside beta test. Doing something
on a smaller scale, with randomly selected people would have caught so
many of these pathetic bugs that should never have been shipped without
the final product.
I also don't understand what CL does for in-house beta testing. How on
earth could they have missed such obvious bugs? Oy vey...
Sotek
wrote:
>Indigo <email_not_available@ask_me.meh> wrote
>>>Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
>>>Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
>>>figures like that!
>>
>>I've not seen 1300 people working on norn genomes.
>>Lis and LJR have the best out there so far. Third party. That's TWO
>>people. TWO. So then 100 cyberlife employees to 2 third party
>>developers?!!?!! Ouch. Not saying much.
>
>which isn't even taking into account the fact that these people actually have
>jobs etc outside c2, and have to find their own spare time to make these
>norns. compare that to a full-time job at cl where they're supposed to do
>nothing else *but* program the game, and i find it *slightly* worrying to say the
>least.
well, it's 2 out of 1300.
Plus, wouldn't you expect the third parties to work off of the
origonal and improve it? They certainly wouldn't put it on the web if
it was *worse*
Sotek
>> >I won't be buying it, myself, until I have a faster CPU which won't be
>> >for awhile yet. Probably sometime next year.
>>
>> I have a P233 and C2 runs great :) Not that my machine hasn't been tweaked by
>> yourstruely, but ;)
>>
>
>Would you mind telling me what you 'tweaked'? Even on a P2 350mhz with
>128 megs of RAM, my world can almost slow to a crawl at certain points.
>Anything you did to help your system would be certainly welcome on this
>end. :)
I dunno about him, but i've got a P233 with only 32 MB RAM, and C2
runs great as long as i don't try to multitask... and even then, i'm
fine till it autosaves *ouch*
Sotek
<emy-...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>
>Paul Richardson wrote:
>>
>
>> and they release
>> helpful things on their site for C1 and C2 users.
>
>Eye-candy useless cobs which conveniently ignore blaring bugs...
CL's cobs are the ones i use the most often...
>> Without the community,
>> Creatures would be nothing. Cyberlife know this so I think it would be in
>> their own best interests to keep us all happy as possible.
>
>It would be in their own best interests...makes you wonder why they don't try
>very hard to do it. :)
>>
>> The game is playable without updates. It may not be perfect without updates
>> but it is still quite playable.
>
>'Scuse me, but did we get different games? I got C2, original version. I'm not
>sure what game you're talking about.
>
>Playable, sure, if you don't mind norns that die in two minutes and a ton of
>blatant bugs.
>
Hrmm... my first C2 norns *all* did better than my first 10 or 20 C1
norns....
>> When I played C2, I didn't need any help at all. Everything I needed was in
>> the manual.
>
>Then you must've also gotten a different manual than I did, 'cuz the one I got
>isn't worthy of lining my sister's bird's cage.
What's a manual?<g>
>> In game all the features seemed easy enough to use if you have
>> common sense! ;-) <jk>
>
>Common sense is not so common. ;) And a lot of what seems simple to some can be
>*very* hard to figure out for others -- people writing games/manuals need to
>take that into account.
I'd agree the manual could have been more useful, but it did have what
i needed...
>> It _IS_ a usable game without updates. I played it without updates for a few
>> weeks and everything seemed fine.
>
>I played it without updates for a few weeks and everything seemed like a poorly
>made game. Go figure.
>
I used to use all of the updates, but i haven't used them in months,
and I haven't noticed any difference at all.
>> Well, when I spout propaganda I'll see if I am tired. The reason I wrote
>> that was because I am in the middle of my school holidays and any form of
>> debte leaves me a withered, tired creature :)
>
>Oh, you think this is a debate? Heh, how quaint.
He did say any form...
>> > PS - EDIT!
>>
>> PS- I DO!
>
>PS - BS!
>
Mannkind
>Actually, cyberlife have done just that for their recent add-ons. They have
>a small group of external beta testers, chosen by whatever warped means they
>deam neccesary. Don't ya just hate them? <g> Check the credits of the life
>kits and genetics kits.
Oh, quiet Lis... don't make me.. ah, what the heck..
::kicks Lis real hard then runs away::
Another useless post by The Deranged Mannkind
CAOS Scripts 60,400 --> 60,500
Generations http://www.albia2000.force9.co.uk/dnorn/
Lis Morris
NORNGod <nor...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:37A21520...@fast.net...
Actually, cyberlife have done just that for their recent add-ons. They have
a small group of external beta testers, chosen by whatever warped means they
deam neccesary. Don't ya just hate them? <g> Check the credits of the life
kits and genetics kits.
--
--
Lis Morris,
A.G.C. Goddess of Shee,
Evil Potato Grower,
Destroyer of Keyboards
http://www.shee.demon.co.uk
NORNGod
LOL! Oops. ;)
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
<ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>Emily Sachs <emy-...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
>news:37A0C84E...@mediaone.net...
>> most part. Cyberlife withdrew to the CDN newsgroups, leaving us fend for
>> ourselves, basically.
>
>Te reason Cyberlife 'withdrew' is because they were tired of the Off-Topic,
>Newbie and Spam coming into a.g.c. So whatr if they like their newsgroups
>more?
Um. Since when do you speak for CL? ;^) Didn't
realise you were on their payroll.
And, even if you are right:
1) CL has filters like anyone else, so they can get rid
of OT posts, spam, etc.
2) Are you saying CL hates newbies? That they don't
like the new people who've bought their game? That
argument would actually prove Emy's point. ;^) IMO
any company that would dislike new customers isn't
going anywhere in business relations...
>OK, the CDN may not mean much to you but it has certainly helped me. I
>myself are starting to develop COBs, and sprites and the CDN has helped a
>lot! Remember that it is totally free and Cyberlife could very easily charge
>money for it.
I don't think she said the CDN wasn't useful. Just that
it does not serve the needs of everyone here, which
I think is a valid point. You mentioned newbies - well,
they are the people who perhaps need the most
help. When folks show up here confused about the
potion machine, for instance. They wouldn't get that
kind of info c/o the CDN, would they? And yet the
potion machine is actually capable of killing your
norns if misunderstood. That could ruin anyone's
fun really quickly. I remember when C2 first came out
and no one knew what the potion machine did. Some
folks thought it would change the colour of their norns,
and probably poisoned a good many by accident.
I'm sure the CDN NGs are useful for the cobblers. But,
not everyone cobbles, or wants to enjoy the game in
that fashion. For instance, I may maintain the Script
Ranges FAQ, but I don't cobble myself. I know it's useful
for cobblers, so I'm happy to help. But cobblers aren't the
whole of this community. If all I cared about were the other
players like me, who just like playing the game and don't
really feel the urge to cobble, then that'd be one less
resource available here.
>Yes but some FAQ's are about: Newbies, COB reservtions, Dont post files
>here, Norn slots. Cyberlife can't include *every* tiny detail! They are a
>small company who can't afford a huge manual. I admit it could have been a
>bit better but what you would like could ruin Cyberlife!
Cyberlife can't afford manuals? So you are privy to their
budget? ;^) Dungeon Keeper 1 came with a very
necessary and comprehensive manual. Sid Meier's
Alpha Centauri has a vital 204 page manual and a
poster with a complete tech tree. These games are a
big success. Why? Because players have the info they
need to play the game comprehensively. If any of those
games had the like of CL's C2 manual, they would pose
a much harder learning curve for any player, and more
people would be likely to give up in frustration. In fact,
when C2 first came out, I remember some people were
doing just that. Notably, in my experience with DK and
SMAC, those games even have an in-game tutorial
system, or gentle introduction, which makes them
instantly more user friendly.
Again, using the potion machine as an example: Can
you imagine how annoyed or upset some players felt
when they realised they were killing their norns by
accident? That's the exact kind of stuff that should have
been added gently to the learning curve c/o the manual.
Now, I don't know if C3 and CA will come with better
manuals. We will have to wait and see. But I know
what I'd hope they'd do... ;^)
Mae Tang
(replace "nospam" with "nu-it" for a valid e-mail address)
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
wrote:
>is that basically saying anyone who disagrees with the almighty cl has no
>place here? surely some sort of open, intelligent debate is better than just a
>bunch of people gathering around going on about how good a game is without
>seeing some of its faults?
I think it's true to a large extent that we can only
_guess_ right now what C3 and CA will be like.
But, as you say, that doesn't mean that we can't
talk about what we'd love to see (or conversely
hate to see) in future Creatures games. I don't
think we should have to be 100% positive or
negative. So long as people have suggestions,
this is as good a time to make them as any other.
;^) Not just for CL's eyes either. Future C3 3rd party
developers are probably already having their hopes
and fears about C3 - stuff which will inspire them to
make the usual high quality range of add-ons, I'm
sure. Reading all these ideas/grumbles, etc, is all
going to input for these folks as well.
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
wrote:
>I seem to recall at the time that they sold the Strategy Guide,
>separately, not very long after the US release of the game. IIRC, that
>added to the furore on this newsgroup.
Heh. I remember that... ;^)
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
(RćdWŘrd§mith) wrote:
>Although not really a bug, the overall world design also has what I
>consider fatal errors. For instance, just getting out of the incubator
>room can take quite a bit of work. Getting a Norn from point A to point B
>can take the good half of an hour. Hopefully the New 3rd party worlds
>coming out in a few months will change that.
Design-wise, I found it hard to operate some of the
lifts and boats. The adult norns would stand in front
of the buttons so that when I tried to trigger the lift
or boat myself, I would inadvertently slap the norn.
This could easily interfere with educating a norn,
or mess up its learning process. I think stuff like that
could really have been noticed in a beta test.
jcarrcwalk
> Nicely said. I would like to see some anti-CL'ers try and make an
ecosystem
> for C2.
Plug time... users.rcn.com/johncindy/NS3.htm
and users.rcn.com/johncindy/cobs.htm
I would wish CL would defend themselves here though
NORNGod
>
[snip]
>
> Now, I don't know if C3 and CA will come with better
> manuals. We will have to wait and see. But I know
> what I'd hope they'd do... ;^)
>
I'm not absolutely sure, but wasn't it said somewhere that the C3
pamphlet (yep, I said pamphlet) was going to be about the size of C2's?
If so it looks like some don't learn from their mistakes...
NORNGod
>
> Manual? Who in the world needs a manual? Figure it out on your own, I mean,
> unless you _just_ got your computer and have never ever used one before...
> I have over 100 games (yep :) ) and I have never read a manual _ever_ :) No
> need to, I pretty sure I'm smart enough to figure it out on my own... I figure
> most people are too.
You do???? I can't count how many people I've had to tell to RTFM for
certain games. =D
NORNGod
>
> > On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:23:40 -0400, NORNGod <nor...@fast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >Would you mind telling me what you 'tweaked'? Even on a P2 350mhz with
> > >128 megs of RAM, my world can almost slow to a crawl at certain points.
>
> 20 norns in a world it ticks along nicely. Are you running some other
> programs in the background that could be causing a problem?
>
No, not usually. Sometimes I've had Netscape going, but even without
that it still gets very slow...
ant
Emily Sachs wrote in message <37A176A2...@mediaone.net>...
>
>
>ant wrote:
>>
>> <snip a whole lotta junk :)>
>>
>> BTW anyone who wants my email address just has to ask in the
>> newsgroup.
>
>Heh, can I have your email address? There's something I'd like to send
you...
>;)
>
yep, just put it all on one line and if you dont mind snipping it from any
replies to the news group as i have changed my sender address to hide it
from the dreaded author posting history, so if i reply ot it with the usual
account it will be indexed with the rest of my posts.
adedwrds
@
ozemail.com.au
ant
Freed from the threat of the dictatorship of the proletariat,
all the more effort was put into building the
dictatorship of the world market. Suddenly the mass
participation of workers in the gross national product
appeared as a mere concession, designed in the context of
the cold war to take the ground from under communist agitation.
Mannkind
unless you _just_ got your computer and have never ever used one before...
I have over 100 games (yep :) ) and I have never read a manual _ever_ :) No
need to, I pretty sure I'm smart enough to figure it out on my own... I figure
most people are too.
Bah! :)
Chris Double
>
> Nope. The CDN was a service originally intended to help Cyberlife. It
> became free after the public outcry that Cyberlife was hoarding its
> developer info.
That's not strictly true - it was/is a service to provide support to
third party developers. Support costs so I guess that is why they were
charging a fee.
Chris.
Chris Double
> >
> >Would you mind telling me what you 'tweaked'? Even on a P2 350mhz with
> >128 megs of RAM, my world can almost slow to a crawl at certain points.
I'm on basically the same system and it runs fine. Even with more than
20 norns in a world it ticks along nicely. Are you running some other
programs in the background that could be causing a problem?
Chris.
Chris Double
> The difference between "mover" and "leftright" eludes me entirely;
> both are vehicles, both move, both would do the same thing as far as
> Norns are concerned--why separate them?
One can be 'pushed' and 'pulled' to change direction, the other can
only be 'pushed' resulting in some arbitary change of movement.
Chris.
Chris Double
> They can't charge for something like the CDN because 1) they essentially
> tried that approach already, with the "contract" thing, and it received
> such a vicious backlash that they changed it, and 2) users will
> inevitably find out all the info they can, the hard way, and post it on
> their own. Information monopoly is impractical on the Internet.
But they can charge for support. If you were seriously developing a
third party add-on to Creatures that you planned to sell for a profit
with the permission of Cyberlife, then paying for good quality support
might be a good idea.
I think the backlash with the original CDN contract was mainly to do
with the loss of rights to any products developed using the
information gained from the CDN.
Chris.
Chris Double
> I don't think they could have changed your URL anyway. That entire
> site was an Imagemap, thus making any kind of update to the site near
> impossible.
I notice that http://creatures.mindscape.com/links.html mis-spells
geNorNics as well. At least the link works I suppose.
geNorNics is also no longer being updated according the the site if
anyone has noticed.
Chris.
Mannkind
all...
Mannkind
>certain games. =D
Yeah. Stupid game companys could save them and us money if they wouldn't make a
manual ;) They are useless :)
Carolyn Horn
>
> NORNGod <nor...@fast.net> wrote in message
> news:37A21520...@fast.net...
> > Paul Richardson wrote:
> >
> > I don't think you totally understand what people are saying, Paul.
> > It wouldn't have damaged CL's back account too much if they would
> > have selected a few people to organize an outside beta test. Doing
> > something on a smaller scale, with randomly selected people would
> > have caught so many of these pathetic bugs that should never have
> > been shipped without the final product.
>
> have a small group of external beta testers, chosen by whatever warped
> means they deam neccesary. Don't ya just hate them? <g> Check the
> credits of the life kits and genetics kits.
<chuckle> That's right... And there have been a lot fewer complaints
since then, haven't there? (apart from download/payment troubles). I
think that CyberLife, consisting as it must of reasoning humans, is able
to add two and two together and realise that for C3 they need to
beta-test properly.
Cheers!
Carolyn
--
http://www.jannart.on.ca/caro/carotoc.htm
Home of Slink's Specials; her C1 & C2 COBs, Utilites,
Scriptorium & Reference notes, and creatures...
including her C306 creatures updated to C307.
Carolyn Horn
Just out of curiosity -- if Support costs, why did they end up making it
free after all? It does seem to me that the public outcry had an
effect...
By the way, I was sorry to see your pages go down. I'm glad to see that
you are still around!
Cheers
Carolyn Horn
>
> Manual? Who in the world needs a manual? Figure it out on your own, I
> mean, unless you _just_ got your computer and have never ever used one
> before... I have over 100 games (yep :) ) and I have never read a
> manual _ever_ :) No need to, I pretty sure I'm smart enough to figure
> it out on my own... I figure most people are too.
Now, don't be silly. If most people are able to figure out the game --
everything from "help! Why won't it install!" through to "how can I get
my norn to eat" (something which C1-familiar people were bound to get
wrong, by the way), "what are the stars" etc etc, then why do people on
this group feel the need to make useful FAQs?? It's unfortunate that
those FAQs are not available to non-internet users...
Chris Double
> Just out of curiosity -- if Support costs, why did they end up making it
> free after all? It does seem to me that the public outcry had an
> effect...
I don't know :-) I agree that the outcry had an effect. It's not
really free though - any time you have to sign an agreement or agree
to conditions for something, it has a cost, it's just not
monetary. You still have to weight up whether you're willing to pay
that particular cost.
> By the way, I was sorry to see your pages go down. I'm glad to see that
> you are still around!
Thanks. I still lurk around and answer the odd question. It's good to
see you're still here as well!
Regards,
Chris.
ant
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk wrote in message
<37b635b1...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>
>>Although not really a bug, the overall world design also has what I
>>consider fatal errors. For instance, just getting out of the incubator
>>room can take quite a bit of work. Getting a Norn from point A to point B
>>can take the good half of an hour. Hopefully the New 3rd party worlds
>>coming out in a few months will change that.
>
>Design-wise, I found it hard to operate some of the
>lifts and boats. The adult norns would stand in front
>of the buttons so that when I tried to trigger the lift
>or boat myself, I would inadvertently slap the norn.
>This could easily interfere with educating a norn,
>or mess up its learning process. I think stuff like that
>could really have been noticed in a beta test.
>
yep that was one of the things that really annoyed my especially since i was
unfamiliar with the interface, if i could see that a lot of the buttons were
in the wrong place within a few mins of installing it, not to mention how
difficult it is for the Norns to operate the lift from the bottom incubator
level as the wall edge is almost to close to the lift buttons for the Norns
to push them, when you consider the Norns have no way to accurately
determine their position, expecting that level of precision movement is
unreasonable. once i removed the offending lifts and replaced them with
teleporters the Norns became much more likely to move around, as they are
not punished by attempting to operate some lifts. if it had not been for AGC
i would have uninstalled the frustrating game, as it was i actually managed
to breed some of the 552 Norns up to generation 3 but they would die at
about 2 1/2 hours and were prone to fainting when pregnant. i dont think
anyone has mentioned that the learning computers don't teach the entire
vocabulary anyway, can we say $tone of knowledge. it seems obvious to me
that cyberlife did most of their beta testing with the blueberry cheat
turned on, or they did so little actual testing that they did not see the
glaring flaws in the world. like did they hatch a batch of 552 hatchery eggs
and attempt to train and raise them without instant vocab and goal
direction, get them to operate a lift, or eat or sleep, or to actually get
them to a powerup and make the blighters push them. and the auto save taking
so long that the applets lose their link to the game, the strange way it
would save the world in the wrong folder, and my system is a p200mmx with
64mb ram and a very fast hdd. and i really dont like c3 running under direct
x and only being able to be run exclusivly, that will reduce the amount of
processor clicks i can devote to the game by a factor of about 10, and i
don't want to have to build another computer just to run c3 on.
well thats my rant for now.
ant
Martha Brummett
wrote:
>I think the backlash with the original CDN contract was mainly to do
>with the loss of rights to any products developed using the
>information gained from the CDN.
The first draft would have prohibited any member from distributing
CObs for free.
Martha Brummett (C2 species range 39001-39100)
a.g.c Queen of OT Information and Amusement
Piratical Maid-of-All-Work, P.B. Jolly Weeble
mailto:mo...@diac.com
Bonadrey Nornery
http://www.diac.com/~mokus/bonadrey.html
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
wrote:
>Manual? Who in the world needs a manual? Figure it out on your own, I mean,
>unless you _just_ got your computer and have never ever used one before...
>I have over 100 games (yep :) ) and I have never read a manual _ever_ :) No
>need to, I pretty sure I'm smart enough to figure it out on my own... I figure
>most people are too.
Easier with some games than with others. For
the really complex strategy games, throwing
away a manual often means you lose vital info.
This is so much the case that on the NG for
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, for instance, there
have recently been several posts from folks who
lost their manuals, asking if any online versions
are available. One player even bought the game,
a second time after the losing the manual because
he really wanted/needed it. To add to this, one
thoughtful player on that group remedied the lack
of an index for the SMAC manual by compiling
one for both the US and UK versions and offering
it for free. This had been a much requested
feature by folks who were trying to find vital info in
a hurry.
As it is, a fair number of newbie questions here do
come from folks who haven't read C2's pamphlet
closely, and so need reminding of how to get the
power-ups, what the stars mean, etc. My beef with
C2's manual is that it is too skimpy and doesn't cover
vital stuff like the potion machine - another regular
newbie question.
Basically, if you can get stuff like the potion machine
without needing to read any manual, or 3rd party
explanation, then good for you. I'm afraid others do
need the extra info. :^)
Ping
news:37a2793...@news.demon.co.uk...
> This is so much the case that on the NG for
> Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, for instance, there
> have recently been several posts from folks who
> lost their manuals,
Argh! even with the manual that game takes weeks to learn.
-Ping
Replace nospam with albia for a valid E-mail address
ICQ: 6283750
"He's dead Jim, you get his tricoder and I'll get his wallet!"
Emily Sachs
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> As it is, a fair number of newbie questions here do
> come from folks who haven't read C2's pamphlet
> closely, and so need reminding of how to get the
> power-ups, what the stars mean, etc.
Actually, as I was pointing out earlier in the thread, those topics *AREN'T*
covered in the manual. It tells about the power-ups, but not how to activate
them. It doesn't even *MENTION* the stars -- I should know; I reread it
yesterday in order to compose a post.
> My beef with
> C2's manual is that it is too skimpy and doesn't cover
> vital stuff like the potion machine - another regular
> newbie question.
Or vital stuff like unconscious norns, cob use, etc...
> Basically, if you can get stuff like the potion machine
> without needing to read any manual, or 3rd party
> explanation, then good for you. I'm afraid others do
> need the extra info. :^)
Which should, I think, be provided by the manual, not 3rd party developers.
> Mae Tang
> (replace "nospam" with "nu-it" for a valid e-mail address)
--
Just a thought from: Emily Sachs | "When you come to the edge of all that
-> http://members.xoom.com/Emy/ | you know, you must believe one of
-> ICQ: 8980276 | two things; there will be earth
-> AIM: Emy Elis | upon which to stand, or you will be
-> Emy exmly scared, run kids. | given wings to fly."
-----------------------------------------------------
"There must be some mistake
I never meant to let
Them take away my soul.
Am I too old? Is it too late?"
~~Pink Floyd
"The Show Must Go On"
Lummox JR
I was thinking that about vehicles vs. teleporters, but it needn't be
that way. In fact, both scripts could be made active quite easily.
Lummox JR
jimbo
>On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:25:19 +0100, jimbo <ji...@jammer.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>Indigo <email_not_available@ask_me.meh> wrote
>>>>Let's see here..... 100 Cyberlife staff to over 1300 Third Pary Community
>>>>Members. It's is more likely that the best norns come from third partys with
>>>>figures like that!
>>>
>>>I've not seen 1300 people working on norn genomes.
>>>Lis and LJR have the best out there so far. Third party. That's TWO
>>>people. TWO. So then 100 cyberlife employees to 2 third party
>>>developers?!!?!! Ouch. Not saying much.
>>
>>which isn't even taking into account the fact that these people actually have
>>jobs etc outside c2, and have to find their own spare time to make these
>>norns. compare that to a full-time job at cl where they're supposed to do
>>nothing else *but* program the game, and i find it *slightly* worrying to say the
>>least.
>
>well, it's 2 out of 1300.
>Plus, wouldn't you expect the third parties to work off of the
>origonal and improve it? They certainly wouldn't put it on the web if
>it was *worse*
>
i mean that what i find worrying is that this is a *hobby* for some people, ie
they're not even trained, have to teach themselves... ok, you could say that
programmers mostly start off that way, but if you can't see the difference
between full-time and hobby and the projected improvement upon work that
full-time concentration would involve, i don't think you're understanding my
point.
anyway, i wouldn't expect it to be third party developers who *fixed* the bloody
thing, not improved it... the way i see it, the norns delivered by lis n lummy are
the ones we were promised on the box!
--
jimbo
official a.g.c. fingerpuppet ubermeister
fingerpuppets! fingerpuppets! get 'em while they're hot!
chirpy deck swabber of the jolly weeble
http://surf.to/jimbo123 - 200 norns, grendels, ettins, hybrids; jayd's cobs, mr nstuff's
cobs, plus bucketloads of others, creature gallery, links, music and a PHOTO OF
JIMBO! you want more?!?
if for some reason the above url works not, here is the full one:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cavern/1556
"i thought i was wrong once. i was mistaken." - karl kennedy
"hope is the one thing we will always have. hopefully." - me!
world's worst misquote:
"the end of the world is nice."
"i've been birched by naked women in a sauna." - lis
"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"
and most importantly,
"JIMBO IS COOL." hehe.
you may have noticed that there are few capital letters in my posts. frankly, i can't be
arsed with them.
the all new serious bit!
"prejudice burns brighter when it's all we have to burn"
"there is never redemption, any fool can regret yesterday"
"the centre of humanity is cruelty"
"the only way to gain approval is by exploiting the very thing that cheapens me"
"the weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong" - all words from
the gospel of the msp. respect!
jimbo
>>You do???? I can't count how many people I've had to tell to RTFM for
>>certain games. =D
>
>Yeah. Stupid game companys could save them and us money if they wouldn't make a
>manual ;) They are useless :)
as a general rule i never read the manual unless i'm unclear about certain
things or i'm searching for a way to do something that i don't know how to do
that invariably never actually exists. they are pretty useless, tis true.
Lis Morris
Mannkind <mann...@aol.com.2.Sweet> wrote in message
news:19990730225151...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> >You do???? I can't count how many people I've had to tell to RTFM for
> >certain games. =D
>
> Yeah. Stupid game companys could save them and us money if they wouldn't
make a
> manual ;) They are useless :)
>
I don't agree. I think with a lot of complex games, the manual is vital.
I've just been playing Civilization: Call to Power for the first time, and
basically, you need the manual to be able to play the game properly!
I tend to install the game, have a baffled fiddle with it, flick through the
manual to get the gist, then play the game, and use the manual for
reference. I appreciate a good manual for complex games, and I think
creatures counts as a complex game.
--
--
Lis Morris,
A.G.C. Goddess of Shee,
Evil Potato Grower,
Destroyer of Keyboards
http://www.shee.demon.co.uk
Data
Lis Morris <lis.m...@shee.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:933374132.5061.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> Actually, cyberlife have done just that for their recent add-ons. They have
> a small group of external beta testers, chosen by whatever warped means they
> deam neccesary. Don't ya just hate them? <g> Check the credits of the life
> kits and genetics kits.
>
preview of the game :)
Data
Carolyn Horn <St...@horn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:235757...@horn.demon.co.uk...
> In article: <P8co3.10086$ts3.2...@nnrp4.clara.net> "Paul Richardson"
> <ricar...@freeuk.com> writes:
> > They still work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help
> > with the Boney Grendels and they created the CDN which is a
> > ***FREE*** service especially for third party people. I can think
> > of many companys which would make you pay for the CDN but Cyberlife
> > give it free as a service to us.
>
> Just to keep the record straight, the original draft for the CDN
> included that we would have to pay for it (not much, but some) -- and
> sign away certain rights. That got rather heavily stomped on by the
> a.g.c community.
>
I think some of that's still in there, isn't it? I think I remember seeing a discusion
about it in JRChat one night. Something about "if it's writting in CHAOS CL own it".
Data
> On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:05:19 GMT, "Paul Richardson"
> <ricar...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> >What is the world wrap bug? I honestly have no idea what it is!
>
> Where the world "seams" together. The norns start going towards it and
> start going the other way. You probably don't know what it is 'cause
> the world's too big and your norns haven't even been over there yet.
> Another one of my C2 pet peeves... and C3's supposed to be even
> bigger. Oh joy...
>
I think Zap managed to make a wraparound fix. But I can't seem to find the url. I did have
it at one stage & it worked as planned (got rid of bug).
> >As to your
> >arguement, C3 should still be released even though their are a few faults
> >with C2. Cyberlife have tried over and over again to try and fix C2 through
> >patches, addons etc. C3 will be what C2 was 'meant to be' only much better.
>
> "Have tried"???
> I have not even seen them attempt to fix the world wrap bug.
Done - 3rd party. See above.
>
> And isn't it more than slightly disturbing that the best norns and
> cobs around are 3rd party??
>
> If C3 is what C2 was meant to be... I await my free upgrade to C3.
>
LOL - hmm, I wonder.
>
> >In certain cases more is better. More people would spot more mistakes. More
> >people could creae more different areas of the brain. More people would help
> >make it more detailed instead of having one person take three months.
>
> More people OUTSIDE the company would spot more mistakes. Anyone who's
> ever designed a website knows this. The usability of it needs to be
> centered around people who know nill about
> designing/creating/developing it.
>
> If C3 is supposed to be coming out in November, the outside beta
> testing should begin ASAP. 3 months of beta testing seems good to me.
> Think it'll happen?? Well, I'm not holding my breath...
>
I'd give it a try - how many here would LOVE a sneak preview of full game? Not just
screenshots?
> >They may no longer post here but they still read messages and they still
> >reply to them! I bet they are reading this debate right now! They still
> >work hard with the community, they got Lis Moris to help with the Boney
> >Grendels and they created the CDN which is a ***FREE*** service especially
> >for third party people. I can think of many companys which would make you
> >pay for the CDN but Cyberlife give it free as a service to us.
>
> CDN is free, yes. HOWEVER. It only benefits DEVELOPERS. I am NOT a
> developer, neither are most of the people on this newsgroup.
> Therefore, I use this newsgroup and am not a part of the CDN and do
> not really care that the CDN is free.
>
Reminds me - I should check in there one day soon.
> And to inform you... I have never seen a gaming "community" have
> something like the CDN where they have to pay for it. Most of what's
> developed is done 100% third party. Okay. So. Great. CL supports
> developers. I'm not one and have too much time on my hands to become
> one just so I know that the company that makes a game I play cares
> about me.
>
> CL reads this. Yes. Emy's established that fact. They do not, however,
> post here and haven't since, oh gee, about the time C2 came out...
>
> >Yes, the truth hurts but what hurts more is accusation after
> >accusationsafter accusation and that is just not fair to the Cyberlife team.
>
> Oh, and I'm sure that paying $50 for a game that was supposed to be
> what the previous version was meant to be is very fair. Great logic,
> there. The truth may hurt, but they've got our money. Poor them.
>
Okay, they worked hard, but wasn't quite ready when it came out. I still like the game,
but found it erksome to have to go find all the patches after I bought it. I personally
can't afford the life kits, since it's that or net & I find the net more informative.
Actually, it was $80 here & I got the ONLY copy in the Riverland. So to play it people
have to come to my place (the CD is locked away safely since I use the Cheat Robot to
start).
What's the bet I can't even get C3? Ask ant what happened when he wanted C1... Mindscape
have some explaining to do reguarding distribution over here. Could they be part of prob
too? Possibly.
> Indigo
>
Chris Double
> I think some of that's still in there, isn't it? I think I remember
> seeing a discusion about it in JRChat one night. Something about "if
> it's writting in CHAOS CL own it".
CAOS being a proprietory language owned by CL, they can do what they
want with it. One of the things with it is they effectively have the
rights to anything written using it. It's not such a problem really
considering that you need their game to run it in the first place I
suppose.
It reminds me of the constructed spoken language Loglan[1]. It is a
language created by James Cooke Browne in the 1950's. He restricted
use of the language to the point where any works written in the
language would be his property. There could be no published works
written in Loglan without his permission. As a result, a group of
enthusiasts formed their own language called Lojban[2] following
similar principals to Loglan with the exception that the language was
in the public domain and free to use.
So I guess you could always try to come up with your own public domain
agent construction language and interface it with Creatures
somehow. Actually, it might be better just to use one of the myriad of
scripting languages out there and find some way of plugging into into
Creatures.
[1] Loglan: http://www.halcyon.com/loglan/welcome.html
[2] Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
Chris.
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
>in the wrong place within a few mins of installing it, not to mention how
>difficult it is for the Norns to operate the lift from the bottom incubator
>level as the wall edge is almost to close to the lift buttons for the Norns
>to push them,
Talking about proximity problems, another common
headache for me was my norns bumping into the
water pump to the left of the incubator while trying
to pick up something that fell near to that. They would
also do that in a few other places, if I remember rightly:
near the right lift on the floor below the incubator was
one example (I think). (Haven't reinstalled C2 since
our Win 95 problems).
>when you consider the Norns have no way to accurately
>determine their position, expecting that level of precision movement is
>unreasonable. once i removed the offending lifts and replaced them with
>teleporters the Norns became much more likely to move around, as they are
>not punished by attempting to operate some lifts.
That teleporter in the incubator room was another
headache. Infants would sporadically try to activate
it, and then learn that pushing or pulling teleporters
had no effect... That was part of the whole lack of
standardisation in objects complaint as well. I hope
C3 will tackle stuff like that more comprehensively.
>well thats my rant for now.
I think the point is that C3 would be better received
if it tackled some of the things that people didn't
like about C2. So far as I can see, it's not entirely
unconstructive to talk about what we'd like to see
fixed, altered, changed, etc. ;^)
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
<emy-...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> As it is, a fair number of newbie questions here do
>> come from folks who haven't read C2's pamphlet
>
>Actually, as I was pointing out earlier in the thread, those topics *AREN'T*
>covered in the manual. It tells about the power-ups, but not how to activate
>them. It doesn't even *MENTION* the stars -- I should know; I reread it
>yesterday in order to compose a post.
Ah. I've not looked at that pamphlet in months. :^)
I stand corrected. Thanks, Emy.
>Or vital stuff like unconscious norns, cob use, etc...
Telling folks how to revive norns with the science
kit would have been a nice thing to do. Stuff like
"ATP" isn't really familiar to most people from
scratch. ;^)
>Which should, I think, be provided by the manual, not 3rd party developers.
I agree. 100%. I love a comprehensive manual.
Hopefully C3 will do better in that department.
I've decided this year (after the Blueberry debacle
in the UK, staggered release dates, and the other
disappointments, bugs, feeble norns etc with C2)
that I'm not going to pre-order the game, or buy
it right away. Instead, I'm probably going to see what
folks here think, wait for any initial patches, and then
make my mind up. If I see the same old thing again:
norns who die out of the box, bugs a go-go, a
pamphlet instead of a manual, Mind(less)scape
dumping on UK customers, etc. I will probably spend
my pennies on something else. I know The Sims
is supposed to come out in Jan '99, for instance, and
really, really fancy that game as well. Or if I haven't
got it yet, Dungeon Keeper 2 comes to mind (with
the My Pet Dungeon option! :^)). Basically, I think
what C2 has taught me is not to pre-hype the
product too much (not get too enthusiastic in
advance), but also: not to run out and spend my
moolah reflexively upon hearing the word "Creatures"
either. ;^) YMMV of course.