Description of Flight/Fight Mechanism in Ron Norns

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slink

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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The original genetics of norns dictate that they respond to being hit
with fear and anger. No mechanism for dealing with these feelings was
provided to them. This left them standing bewildered while they were
stung to death by cave flies, or crumpled in a corner while a grendel
beat them. I altered the following genes to give Ron norns
Flight/Fight responses. I modeled them after descriptions of
stickleback fish territorial behavior plus a dose of self-examination.

Instincts

Please note that instincts are only suggestions made by the experience
of past generations of norns and can be over-ridden with persistent
training, for better or worse.

1. Added Instinct 30 Flee When Frightened and IT is approaching
Reward=127

Means: Run when you are frightened and something is coming. This
suggests that norns run away from attackers if frightened.

2. Added Instinct 31 Deactivate IT When Angry and IT is approaching
and IT is a creature Reward=127, and Instinct 32 Push IT When Angry
and IT is approaching and IT is an object Reward=127

Means: When you are angry and something is coming at you, hit it.
This suggests that norns kill cave flies and strike back at other
attackers.

Stimuli

1. Changed Stimulus 7, IT is retreating, to give off 3 Fear-- and 3
Anger--

Means: Seeing something running away from you appeases anger and
relieves fear. Allows confrontations to end without pursuit.

2. Changed Stimulus 8, Bumped, now gives off 127 Turnase

Means: Bumping into a wall gives off a chemical. See Reactions below
for explanation.

3. Added Stimulus 27, I have retreated, gives off 127 Collapsase

Means: When one flees, a chemical is given off. See Reactions below
for explanation.

Reactions
Added:

65 1 Turnase + 1 Fear -> 1 Anger rate=5 sec
66 1 Collapsase + 1 Anger -> 1 Fear rate=5 sec

Turnase, which is given off when a norn bumps into a wall, will turn
any existing fear into anger. This means that a norn who was running
out of fear and has been cornered will now feel anger. This will
enable the norn to defend itself if the thing it feared was following
it, in accordance with Instincts 31 and 32.

Collapsase, which is given off when a norn retreats, will turn any
existing anger into fear. This means that a norn in an angry
confrontation who begins to retreat will now feel fear. This will
cause it to flee in accordance with Instinct 30.

The rates of these reactions are such that the mood change is
accomplished quickly enough to apply to the current situation. The
half-lives of the two new chemicals are both 40 sec. A value of 80
sec gave norns with inappropriate responses to later situations, in my
opinion.

Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
GEEK CODE Version 3.12: GS>AT !d(++)@ s:+ a+ C+++($) !U(C/H$) P(+)@
L E? W++ N++ o? K? w(++)@ O !M V(+) PS+() PE(++)@ Y+ PGP? t++@ 5? X?
R+ tv-- b++(++++)@ DI++++ D G e++++ h+(++)($) r+++ x+++

Kirei

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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Where do you get all this information?

slink

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:05:00 -0500, Kirei <ki...@geocities.com> wrote:

>Where do you get all this information?

Er, which part do you mean?

ChrisD1

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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>The original genetics of norns dictate that they respond to being hit
>with fear and anger. No mechanism for dealing with these feelings was
>provided to them. This left them standing bewildered while they were
>stung to death by cave flies, or crumpled in a corner while a grendel
>beat them. I altered the following genes to give Ron norns
>Flight/Fight responses. I modeled them after descriptions of
>stickleback fish territorial behavior plus a dose of self-examination.
>
>

Da*n, Your good!!!

Shon
Chr...@aol.com
My creatures site: http://members.aol.com/chrisd1/shons/shons.html

Lis Morris

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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That is well cool! Very clever bit of gengineering.... well done!
Lis Morris,
Potato Lady extraordinaire!

slink wrote in message <34cf578d...@news.netins.net>...


>The original genetics of norns dictate that they respond to being hit
>with fear and anger. No mechanism for dealing with these feelings was
>provided to them. This left them standing bewildered while they were
>stung to death by cave flies, or crumpled in a corner while a grendel
>beat them. I altered the following genes to give Ron norns
>Flight/Fight responses. I modeled them after descriptions of
>stickleback fish territorial behavior plus a dose of self-examination.
>

DJs Red 1

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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In article <34CF65...@geocities.com>, Kirei <ki...@geocities.com> writes:

>Where do you get all this information?

She's the one who programmed the new genes for the Life Kit. Look at the fine
print on that start up card, if you have it.
Daljit ICQ 3206846 http://members.aol.com/djsred1/index.html

Daljit: The NORN are members of the NDWAL and the RfNS.
Indigo: ::brandishes picket sign:: Get yes rights for Norns!
Flame: Get yes Norn Doll!
Nornan: ::big nornish grin::

slink

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:09:18 -0000, "Lis Morris" <lis_m...@msn.com>
wrote:

>That is well cool! Very clever bit of gengineering.... well done!
>Lis Morris,
>Potato Lady extraordinaire!
>

So many people have posted that the Ron norns are aggressive that I
thought they might not be understanding the flight/fight phrase. I
just thought it was time to explain what it was and how it worked.
While the Ron norns aren't passive victims by a long shot, they don't
go looking for trouble. The difference between Foxy and Vixy is all
in one gene, and it makes it so that if you frighten her she gets mad
as well as frightened. The difference between Vixy and the Warrior
norns is that they *do* go looking for trouble when they get mad,
again from just one different gene.

I had a strain that were more timid than normal but it turned out that
all they did was run around in terror. Another failure was my
Tinkerers. I thought I'd make norns that would run around pushing,
pulling and stopping everything in sight. As it turns out the only
thing "in sight" for them was each other. I should have guessed that
one. <wry grin> As someone noticed from browsing the gno file with a
hex-editor I also tried to design anti-incest instincts. That was a
hard one to test, since all clones have the same parents. Once I had
appropriate pairs I did not have too long to wait to find out my
answer, however. It turns out that the pleasures of kiss-POP
overwhelm any such instinct. I have to assume that is why
restlessness is a part of adolescence, to scatter the young.

slink

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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Correction. There are two genes different between Vixy and the
Warriors. It's the same difference in both genes, however.

Nornia7575

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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>The original genetics of norns dictate that they respond to being hit
>with fear and anger. No mechanism for dealing with these feelings was
>provided to them. This left them standing bewildered while they were
>stung to death by cave flies, or crumpled in a corner while a grendel
>beat them. I altered the following genes to give Ron norns
>Flight/Fight responses. I modeled them after descriptions of
>stickleback fish territorial behavior plus a dose of self-examination.

Wow, do I need one of these in my gene pools! Nice work Slink! Way to go!
WOO! Anyway, will a norn with these edited genes be up on your page soon, or
are you still experimenting to make sure that some don't go on psycotic killing
rages?

Nornia
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

slink

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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That's one of the Life Kit norns. :) But the genomes will be
floating around free, just the sprites have to stay with their legal
licensees. Keep your eyes open and you'll probably see someone
posting Ron norn offspring somewhere.

DEMO101

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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>Wow, do I need one of these in my gene pools! Nice work Slink! Way to go!
>WOO! Anyway, will a norn with these edited genes be up on your page soon, or
>are you still experimenting to make sure that some don't go on psycotic
>killing
>rages?

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Slink talking about the Ron norns in life kit
(Slink made the genes FOR Cyberlife) and Sandra is just explaining what they
do.......
-Das, The logical Athiest gamer UIN#6920984
http://members.aol.com/DEMO101/Albia.html
Albia Express
tell me if I can use your norns/grendels/cobs/utilities
founder of DaNs (Das's anti-NORN society) tell me if U want in!

Lis Morris

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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Hmm just been looking at your geekcode... finally got around to looking at
www.geekcode.com (half the links are missing but I got a feel for it) Do you
normally wear no clothes then? <g>

Lis Morris,
Potato Lady extraordinaire!

slink wrote in message <34cf6b4d...@news.netins.net>...


>On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:05:00 -0500, Kirei <ki...@geocities.com> wrote:
>

>>Where do you get all this information?
>

>Er, which part do you mean?
>

DJs Red 1

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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In article <19980128222...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, norni...@aol.com
(Nornia7575) writes:

>Wow, do I need one of these in my gene pools! Nice work Slink! Way to go!
>WOO! Anyway, will a norn with these edited genes be up on your page soon,
>or are you still experimenting to make sure that some don't go on psycotic
>killing rages?

If I'm not mistaken, the Ron Norns are what she's talking about, and the
Warrior Norns are already up there.

slink

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Jan 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/28/98
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:49:02 -0000, "Lis Morris" <lis_m...@msn.com>
wrote:

>Hmm just been looking at your geekcode... finally got around to looking at


>www.geekcode.com (half the links are missing but I got a feel for it) Do you
>normally wear no clothes then? <g>
>Lis Morris,
>Potato Lady extraordinaire!
>

<giggle>

Nornia7575

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Jan 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/29/98
to

>If I'm not mistaken, the Ron Norns are what she's talking about, and the
>Warrior Norns are already up there.
>Daljit ICQ 3206846

Ah. Well color me embarrassed. I can't find the silly Life Kit ANYWHERE, I
just thought she re-engineered some new norns! Excuse me while I whack my head
against this here wall repeatedly!

Nornia
Make it idiot proof and watch ME be the idiot!

Sonic28940

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Jan 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/29/98
to

Egad! Battle norns! That would be neat, creating norns who could slap other
norns when angry and cause glycotoxin or disease.

>The original genetics of norns

{snip}
>opinion.<BR>


-Sonic

Inventor of the "Sonic 'tude"

DJs Red 1

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Jan 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/29/98
to

In article <19980129011...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, norni...@aol.com
(Nornia7575) writes:

>Make it idiot proof and watch ME be the idiot!

LOL! A bit of an over reaction maybe? ;)

slink

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Jan 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/29/98
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Well, these don't cause glycotoxin or disease. You can breed Grendels
for that, though. :)

idcr...@cmq.com

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Jan 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/30/98
to


slink wrote:

> I had a strain that were more timid than normal but it turned out that
> all they did was run around in terror. Another failure was my
> Tinkerers. I thought I'd make norns that would run around pushing,
> pulling and stopping everything in sight. As it turns out the only
> thing "in sight" for them was each other. I should have guessed that
> one. <wry grin> As someone noticed from browsing the gno file with a
> hex-editor I also tried to design anti-incest instincts. That was a
> hard one to test, since all clones have the same parents. Once I had
> appropriate pairs I did not have too long to wait to find out my
> answer, however. It turns out that the pleasures of kiss-POP
> overwhelm any such instinct. I have to assume that is why
> restlessness is a part of adolescence, to scatter the young.

Question - is it really *practical* to give them anti-incest instincts?
After all, in an environment where no more than 12 norns can exist at a
time, it seems like that would be a rather unfavorable trait, even if it
worked. I assume that that's the main reason for using haploid, rather
than diploid, DNA in the game, since the average gamer's computer just
couldn't support enough norns at once to avoid inbreeding without constant
importing/exporting from/to a large stash of norns.

-IdentityCrisis


idcr...@cmq.com

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Jan 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/30/98
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> The goal in that instance was to create something some of the
> customers would like. It was not my idea, but I was willing to try.
> Morality is apparently not an instinct. :)
>
> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/

I just had a frightening thought...

Puritan norns... <shudder> ;7

-IdentityCrisis


slink

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Jan 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/31/98
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The goal in that instance was to create something some of the


customers would like. It was not my idea, but I was willing to try.
Morality is apparently not an instinct. :)


Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/

David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
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idcr...@cmq.com wrote:

> Question - is it really *practical* to give them anti-incest instincts?

The way the program is wired at the moment, a better question would be
is it really *necessary* to give them anti-incest instincts, and the
answer to that would be no.

> After all, in an environment where no more than 12 norns can exist at a
> time, it seems like that would be a rather unfavorable trait, even if it
> worked.

There are reasons to think it could be made to work, but there'd have to
be a pretty compelling reason to introduce that particular genetic meme.
I haven't seen any such thing yet.

> I assume that that's the main reason for using haploid, rather
> than diploid, DNA in the game, since the average gamer's computer just
> couldn't support enough norns at once to avoid inbreeding without constant
> importing/exporting from/to a large stash of norns.

Well, consider the way haploid and diploid DNAs work:

Haploid DNA consists of a single sequence, and when two haploid
sequences combine, choice cuts are taken randomly from either one
sequence or the other.

In Creatures terms: two related norns make whoopie, and the child shares
the traits and appearance of both of them. Parent X provides gene A,
parent Y provides gene B, child gets either gene A or gene B.

Diploid DNA, if I remember correctly, consists of two sequences, one
dominant and the other recessive. When the diploid sequences combine,
traits combine based on their frequency. If parent X has a gene AC
(where A is a positive dominant trait and C is a recessive negative
trait) and parent Y has a gene BC (where B is the positive dominant
trait and C is the same trait from parent X), then when they merge,
trait C outvotes both of the original dominant traits and becomes the
child's new dominant trait. The child will get either a CA or CB gene.

In Creatures terms: two related norns make whoopie, and the child
suddenly emerges with any of: wall eyes; two toes per foot; no teeth;
proficiency at playing the banjo; unnatural attraction to animal attack
videos, etc. More interesting, and capable of generating some wild and
nasty surprises.

In back-end terms, the diploid Creature would have two sets of genes,
one of which does nothing but affect how offspring turns out.
Consequently, this makes the norn twice as large as it needs to be for
normal operation, and in an application which already takes up a 40-60Mb
footprint on your hard drive (more if you do a lot of exporting, backing
up, and/or using COBs), that's a bad thing.

--David

Karma

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
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David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood wrote:

<snip>


>
> Diploid DNA, if I remember correctly, consists of two sequences, one
> dominant and the other recessive. When the diploid sequences combine,
> traits combine based on their frequency. If parent X has a gene AC
> (where A is a positive dominant trait and C is a recessive negative
> trait) and parent Y has a gene BC (where B is the positive dominant
> trait and C is the same trait from parent X), then when they merge,
> trait C outvotes both of the original dominant traits and becomes the
> child's new dominant trait. The child will get either a CA or CB gene.

Actually, the child will inherit one of the pair from each parent. If
the C is a recessive, it will not become dominant if there is another
dominant present. The child will get an either and AB, AC, BC, or CC,
and only if the recessive C is present in both (CC) will the trait show
through.

Hope I explained this so it made sense.. it's been a while since I
studied genetics!


>
> In Creatures terms: two related norns make whoopie, and the child
> suddenly emerges with any of: wall eyes; two toes per foot; no teeth;
> proficiency at playing the banjo; unnatural attraction to animal attack
> videos, etc. More interesting, and capable of generating some wild and
> nasty surprises.

hehehe..

These effects, however will still apply to the child who was born with
the CC recessive.. if it was a "bad" recessive. Some aren't..

--
Karma of NORN
(aka Andrea Hearn)

Co-Founder of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Grendels
(SPCG)
http://www.budget.net/~tonyjett/spcg.html

Creatures on the Web
http://www.budget.net/~tonyjett

idcr...@cmq.com

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
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David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood wrote:

> idcr...@cmq.com wrote:
>
> > Question - is it really *practical* to give them anti-incest instincts?
>
> The way the program is wired at the moment, a better question would be
> is it really *necessary* to give them anti-incest instincts, and the
> answer to that would be no.
>
> > After all, in an environment where no more than 12 norns can exist at a
> > time, it seems like that would be a rather unfavorable trait, even if it
> > worked.
>
> There are reasons to think it could be made to work, but there'd have to
> be a pretty compelling reason to introduce that particular genetic meme.
> I haven't seen any such thing yet.
>

Not using the existing Creatures game though, right? I mean, isn't the haploid
DNA structure hardwired (like speech)? You'd have to write an entirely new
game...

> > I assume that that's the main reason for using haploid, rather
> > than diploid, DNA in the game, since the average gamer's computer just
> > couldn't support enough norns at once to avoid inbreeding without constant
> > importing/exporting from/to a large stash of norns.
>

> In Creatures terms: two related norns make whoopie, and the child
> suddenly emerges with any of: wall eyes; two toes per foot; no teeth;
> proficiency at playing the banjo; unnatural attraction to animal attack
> videos, etc. More interesting, and capable of generating some wild and
> nasty surprises.
>

<chuckle>

> In back-end terms, the diploid Creature would have two sets of genes,
> one of which does nothing but affect how offspring turns out.
> Consequently, this makes the norn twice as large as it needs to be for
> normal operation, and in an application which already takes up a 40-60Mb
> footprint on your hard drive (more if you do a lot of exporting, backing
> up, and/or using COBs), that's a bad thing.
>
> --David

That's pretty much what I meant, except that I was thinking about proscessing
power, not storage capacity (that's another problem altogether).

I don't know exactly how far removed you have to be from a reletive before it's
reasonably safe to reproduce with him/her, but I can't imagine how you could
pull diploid DNA off without at *least* several dozen participants in the gene
pool at one time. Considering that creatures can't even handle it's normal
maximum of *one* dozen all the time, I'm not gonna hold my breath. :)

-IdentityCrisis


David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
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Karma wrote:
>
> David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > Diploid DNA, if I remember correctly, consists of two sequences, one
> > dominant and the other recessive. When the diploid sequences combine,
> > traits combine based on their frequency. If parent X has a gene AC
> > (where A is a positive dominant trait and C is a recessive negative
> > trait) and parent Y has a gene BC (where B is the positive dominant
> > trait and C is the same trait from parent X), then when they merge,
> > trait C outvotes both of the original dominant traits and becomes the
> > child's new dominant trait. The child will get either a CA or CB gene.
>
> Actually, the child will inherit one of the pair from each parent. If
> the C is a recessive, it will not become dominant if there is another
> dominant present. The child will get an either and AB, AC, BC, or CC,
> and only if the recessive C is present in both (CC) will the trait show
> through.

Under those rules, if genes AC and BD were combined, the possible
combinations would be AB, AD, BA, BC, CD, and DC. The latter two cases
combine recessive traits and therefore one is forced to the surface.

In the case of AC and BC genes, then the [CD and DC] combinations would
both be replaced by the CC combination.

If this is indeed correct, then thanks for the clarification. Once again
I've put my foot in my mouth globally, and once again I regret not
changing my socks.

> Hope I explained this so it made sense.. it's been a while since I
> studied genetics!

It's been even longer since I have; try 'never.' I'd give you an actual
duration, but I keep coming up with division by zero errors...

> > In Creatures terms: two related norns make whoopie, and the child
> > suddenly emerges with any of: wall eyes; two toes per foot; no teeth;
> > proficiency at playing the banjo; unnatural attraction to animal attack
> > videos, etc. More interesting, and capable of generating some wild and
> > nasty surprises.

> hehehe..

Lemme tell you, it was an awful temptation to add in 'tendency to vote
Democrat; tendency to vote Republican; unnatural attraction to six-wheel
pickup trucks; aversion to bathing, etc.'

> These effects, however will still apply to the child who was born with
> the CC recessive.. if it was a "bad" recessive. Some aren't.

Telekinesis, for example. (dives for cover)

--David

David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
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idcr...@cmq.com wrote:
>
> David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood wrote:
>
> > idcr...@cmq.com wrote:

> Not using the existing Creatures game though, right? I mean, isn't the haploid
> DNA structure hardwired (like speech)? You'd have to write an entirely new
> game...

Pretty much. The haploid method is wired into the current application to
the gills.

> > In back-end terms, the diploid Creature would have two sets of genes,
> > one of which does nothing but affect how offspring turns out.
> > Consequently, this makes the norn twice as large as it needs to be for
> > normal operation, and in an application which already takes up a 40-60Mb
> > footprint on your hard drive (more if you do a lot of exporting, backing
> > up, and/or using COBs), that's a bad thing.

> That's pretty much what I meant, except that I was thinking about proscessing


> power, not storage capacity (that's another problem altogether).

Processing power? Again, there are two things to consider.

One is CPU time, where the impact is negligible; the only time recessive
genes could possibly come into play is when you're hashing two genomes
together to create a new egg. Any other time and the recessives don't
figure into the math.

The other is the program's footprint in active memory, where the impact
could end up being severe; unless the recessive genes were kept on disk
while the dominant traits were all held as active images, then active
memory would contain a lot of information that it would only need that
0.5% of the time when it's combining genomes.

> I don't know exactly how far removed you have to be from a reletive before it's
> reasonably safe to reproduce with him/her, but I can't imagine how you could
> pull diploid DNA off without at *least* several dozen participants in the gene
> pool at one time. Considering that creatures can't even handle it's normal
> maximum of *one* dozen all the time, I'm not gonna hold my breath. :)

Ooooh, don't get me started on the math... oh, no, too late, you've got
me thinking. I'll have to follow this up in a later message, maybe even
write a program to do certain calculating for me, because this gets
complicated.

Here's how I define the problem: one parent of sex 1 with a "good"
dominant and a "bad" recessive mates with two different parents of sex
2. How many generations would have to pass before the possible offspring
from similarly numbered generations could mate with no chance of getting
that bad recessive trait?

Pleasant dreams, kiddies...

--David

idcr...@cmq.com

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
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David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood wrote:

> > > In back-end terms, the diploid Creature would have two sets of genes,
> > > one of which does nothing but affect how offspring turns out.
> > > Consequently, this makes the norn twice as large as it needs to be for
> > > normal operation, and in an application which already takes up a 40-60Mb
> > > footprint on your hard drive (more if you do a lot of exporting, backing
> > > up, and/or using COBs), that's a bad thing.
>
> > That's pretty much what I meant, except that I was thinking about proscessing
> > power, not storage capacity (that's another problem altogether).
>
> Processing power? Again, there are two things to consider.
>
> One is CPU time, where the impact is negligible; the only time recessive
> genes could possibly come into play is when you're hashing two genomes
> together to create a new egg. Any other time and the recessives don't
> figure into the math.
>

That's not what I meant, I guess I should have been clearer about this. Sorry.

I realize that *induhvidual* norns won't need more CPU time, but you'd need a much
larger norn population to avoid dangerously close inbreeding. *That's* where I
figured you'd run into trouble. You'd need more norns than your computer could ever
reasonably be expected to support, or you'd soon have an entire population of,
well... Cajun norns. <Grin, duck, *RUN!*>

> > I don't know exactly how far removed you have to be from a reletive before it's
> > reasonably safe to reproduce with him/her, but I can't imagine how you could
> > pull diploid DNA off without at *least* several dozen participants in the gene
> > pool at one time. Considering that creatures can't even handle it's normal
> > maximum of *one* dozen all the time, I'm not gonna hold my breath. :)
>
> Ooooh, don't get me started on the math... oh, no, too late, you've got
> me thinking. I'll have to follow this up in a later message, maybe even
> write a program to do certain calculating for me, because this gets
> complicated.
>

Heh, heh, heh... I strike again!!! Burn those helpless brain cells, sucker!!! ;7

-IdentityCrisis

Trevor Barrie

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Feb 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/3/98
to

In article <34d2af7a...@news.netins.net>, slink <sl...@netins.net> wrote:

>>Question - is it really *practical* to give them anti-incest instincts?

[...]


>The goal in that instance was to create something some of the
>customers would like. It was not my idea, but I was willing to try.
>Morality is apparently not an instinct. :)

I'm somewhat intrigued by the fact that you apparently thought it was at
least theoretically possible, though. Is there some mechanism by which Norns
can tell when another Norn is related to it?

Stuart Taylor

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Feb 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/4/98
to

> That's pretty much what I meant, except that I was thinking about
proscessing
> power, not storage capacity (that's another problem altogether).
>
> I don't know exactly how far removed you have to be from a reletive
before it's
> reasonably safe to reproduce with him/her, but I can't imagine how you
could
> pull diploid DNA off without at *least* several dozen participants in the
gene
> pool at one time. Considering that creatures can't even handle it's
normal
> maximum of *one* dozen all the time, I'm not gonna hold my breath. :)

Well form what I rember 2 Generations is enough if you *HAVE* to push it,
but I think its 4 to be safe.


Brad Fermanich

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Feb 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/4/98
to

Stuart Taylor wrote:
> Well form what I rember 2 Generations is enough if you *HAVE* to push it,
> but I think its 4 to be safe.

With diplod genes it depends on the mutation you are trying to avoid and
how badly you want to avoid it. For instance, if there is a 1/1million
chance of getting a particular bad mutation you have approx. 1/1000 of
being a carrier. Given you are a carrier, that means at least one of
your parents is a carrier too. This means that your sibling, for
instance, has a 1/2 chance of being a carrier. Any children would then
have a 1/4 chance of inheriting both bad genes and therefore have a
total chance of 1/1000*1/2*1/4 change of have that mutation. This
magnifies the original 1/1million to 1/8000, This is a magnification of
128. If you are a carrier, your chance of your mate being one to is
approx: 1 generation=1/2, 2 gens=1/8, 3 gens=1/32, 4 gens=1/128, 5
gens=1/512...So 6 generations are needed to arrive at <approx.> the
original chance of being a carrier.

--
Brad.

ICQ: 5690051

http://rw1.rworld.com/brf/index.htm

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tv+ b++ DI++(++++)>$ !D----> G?>+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Keith F. Goodnight

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Feb 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/4/98
to

In article <34D72B...@sickofSPAM.erols.com>,

dw...@I.skipjack.don't.bluecrab.like.org.SPAM! wrote:
> Diploid DNA, if I remember correctly, consists of two sequences, one
> dominant and the other recessive. When the diploid sequences combine,
> traits combine based on their frequency. If parent X has a gene AC
> (where A is a positive dominant trait and C is a recessive negative
> trait) and parent Y has a gene BC (where B is the positive dominant
> trait and C is the same trait from parent X), then when they merge,
> trait C outvotes both of the original dominant traits and becomes the
> child's new dominant trait. The child will get either a CA or CB gene.

No, this isn't how it works at all.

The two alleles at a diploid genetic locus do not have to be
dominant/recessive -- codominance is also possible, and is indeed more
frequent.
Genes code for proteins; sometimes a mutation causes a gene to
manufacture no protein at all, or a protein that just does nothing. When
that happens, that allele is recessive-- because when paired with an allele
that still makes the protein, the protein is present in the organism and
the result of lacking it does not occur. The recessive allele is only
expressed when homozygous (i.e. both alleles the same in the individual)
because only then does the individual actually lack the protein.
But more usual is the case in which both alleles make a functioning
protein, just slightly different versions of it. This results in
codominance, in which the expressed trait is intermediate between the two
"pure" genotypes because both versions of the protein are present.
(Sometimes, more rarely, you can actually get some novel interaction effect
that makes the heterozygous phenotype quite novel.)
There is no "overriding" of dominance because of the frequency of an
allele in the parent organism. Alleles sort independently and then whatever
two end up in the organism interact with each other according to what
protein they produce.
All 4 combinations of alleles in the offspring are equally possible:

MOM: AB DAD: CD
OFFSPRING: AC AD BC BD (equally frequent)

If A, B, C or D are are recessive, then there may be fewer phenotypes than
genotypes. Say if A and B are both dominant over C and D, then there are
only two phenotypes:

OFFSPRING: A B

Whe parents share alleles, you get a different result:

MOM: AB DAD: AB
OFFSPRING: AA AB BA BB (equally frequent; but because you can't tell AB
from BA in an organism-- allele positions are not numbered-- you see only
three genotypes in a frequency of 1:2:1)

Now, we're closing in on the issue of inbreeding...

Some recessive alleles are harmless (e.g. blue eyes in humans) or can
even be beneficial, if the protein they're not making is no longer useful
anyway, so it saves your metabolism some wasted effort.
But most often, recessives are damaging or even lethal, because the
organism really *needs* most of its proteins. A disfavored recessive will
decline in frequency under natural selection, but the force of selection
will grow less and less as the allele becomes more and more rare-- because
it becomes less and less likely that the rare allele will ever find another
copy of itself so that it can be expressed.
Mathematically, the frequency of the disfavored allele asymptotically
approaches zero. In the noisy real worlds, a deleterious, even lethal
recessive can hang around "in hiding" indefinitely.

Each organism has tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of
different genetic loci (in nature-- I don't know the genome size of Norns).
Out of so many, the probability is very high that a lot of them are rare
recessives not being expressed, and many of those are deleterious or even
lethal.

If two unrelated organisms mate, then they both have a complement of
deleterious recessives; but because each individual recessive is rare, they
are very unlikely to have the *same* recessives. So their offspring may
inherit the bad allele from Mom, but it will be screened by a good allele
from Dad. And any bad alleles from Dad will be screened by good alleles
from Mom.

Now consider the situation with inbreeding: If two siblings mate, they
not only have their share of bad recessives, but because they are so
closely related they are very likely to have many of the *same* recessives.
So the chance that the offspring will inherit two copies of the deleterious
trait and so express it becomes significant. Now the offspring may get
lucky for some loci and unlucky for others, but over its entire genome it
is almost certain to be expressing *some* deleterious traits. If even one
of these is lethal, it dies. Any that are deleterious will make it
unhealthy.

Of course, the other side of the coin is that if the parents carried a
*beneficial* recessive, then it has a better chance of expressing that, as
well-- but as I said before, that's by far the less common case.

Inbreeding is an issue in conservation of endangered species, especially
those being bred in captivity. They are likely to have tiny population
sizes and inbreeding is a serious problem. Zoos keep scrupulous records
covering animals in captivity all around the world have a well-known
pedigree and when zoos exchange animals as part of a breeding program, the
pairings can be arranged to avoid inbreeding. The low population size means
that some inbreeding cannot be avoided-- after a while they're *all*
relatives of each other-- and some conservation geneticists have come to
the conclusion that captive breeding programs should *maximize* inbreeding,
and hope to weather the storm of nonviable offspring-- the goal being to
flush out all the recessive alleles so that the species will later be
better able to survive at low population sizes. This is still a
controversial point in conservation genetics.

Now, how about in haploid organisms like Norns?

In a haploid, there are *no* recessives. All alleles are expressed. So a
lethal mutation is going to kill its carrier long before it gets to the
point of mating. A deleterious mutation may make it sick enough that it
never mates successfuly. And of course, a beneficial mutation will help it
immediately, "recessive" or not.

So all the genes are "out in the open" and there's nothing to be gained
by inbreeding avoidance.

Whew! A long way to come to a simple conclusion... Genetics 101 brought to
you by:

Keith F. Goodnight
Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
Rice University

Karma

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Feb 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/4/98
to

Keith F. Goodnight wrote:

<snip detailed explanation of diploid genetics>

> Whew! A long way to come to a simple conclusion... Genetics 101 brought to
> you by:
>
> Keith F. Goodnight
> Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
> Rice University

Thanks, Keith, for explaining that! It has been a while since I studied
genetics, and I had forgotten a lot of that.


--
Karma of NORN
(aka Andrea Hearn)

Creatures on the Web
http://www.budget.net/~tonyjett

Co-Founder:


Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Grendels (SPCG)
http://www.budget.net/~tonyjett/spcg.html

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W+ P--->+ Gd-:,Quake/s-:,Civ2/p*:/o:
gQ+++/W1+,2---,3+,4+,5-,6+
-----END_C-ADD_CODE_BLOCK-----

CindyPsych

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Feb 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/10/98
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On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 15:19:19 -0500, "David \"I Don't Like SPAM\" Wood"
<pyxi...@sickofSPAM.erols.com> wrote:

<large snip>


>
>Here's how I define the problem: one parent of sex 1 with a "good"
>dominant and a "bad" recessive mates with two different parents of sex
>2. How many generations would have to pass before the possible offspring
>from similarly numbered generations could mate with no chance of getting
>that bad recessive trait?
>
>Pleasant dreams, kiddies...
>
>--David

Wouldn't that depend on how fatal the recessive was, either to the
norns or to their ability to reproduce?
- CindyPsych
~~~~~~~~~~
CindyPsych, NPhD (Doctor of Norn Psychology)
Cindy...@trim.net
Proud Member of the Anti-Norn Bread Society
NDWAL member
Assimilated by the NORN Collective/ 7 of 9 look-alike
"When in trouble or in doubt,
run in circles, scream and shout."
~~~~~~~~~~

CindyPsych

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Feb 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/10/98
to

Three cheers!!! Very well said. And correct, too!
- CindyPsych

~~~~~~~~~~

Trevor Barrie

unread,
Feb 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/11/98
to

In article <01bd32e5$85554720$4a2a...@ctlcpc054.cyberlife.co.uk>,
slink <sl...@netins.net> wrote:

>Yes, there is a set of General Sensory inputs in the Instinct genes:
>
>IT is my sibling
>IT is my parent
>IT is my child

Interesting. Do the norns do anything with this information by default?
Are they, for example, less likely to beat up relatives than other norns?

slink

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Feb 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/12/98
to

No, nothing is done with it at this time. However, anyone who is into
gengineering can play with it. It's under Instincts.

David "I Don't Like SPAM" Wood

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Feb 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/12/98
to

slink wrote:
> On 11 Feb 1998 17:57:37 -0400, tba...@ibm.net (Trevor Barrie) wrote:
> >In article <01bd32e5$85554720$4a2a...@ctlcpc054.cyberlife.co.uk>,
> >slink <sl...@netins.net> wrote:

> >>IT is my sibling
> >>IT is my parent
> >>IT is my child
> >
> >Interesting. Do the norns do anything with this information by default?
> >Are they, for example, less likely to beat up relatives than other norns?
>
> No, nothing is done with it at this time. However, anyone who is into
> gengineering can play with it. It's under Instincts.

Oh yeah, here's something I'd like to see...

If IT is my child and IT pushes food, reward ME.

Let 'em drive each OTHER about eating for a while...

--David,
who obviously has to hit the Codewarrior book a little harder...

slink

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Feb 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/12/98
to

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:16:05 -0500, "David \"I Don't Like SPAM\" Wood"
<pyxi...@sickofSPAM.erols.com> wrote:

>
>Oh yeah, here's something I'd like to see...
>
>If IT is my child and IT pushes food, reward ME.
>
>Let 'em drive each OTHER about eating for a while...
>
>--David,
>who obviously has to hit the Codewarrior book a little harder...

<grin> My first feeble attempt at the anti-incest norns had "if IT is
my parent and I push (anything), punish me" and resulted in norns
which would not eat food in front of their parents.

Ping3506

unread,
Feb 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/12/98
to

In article <34e2f2e0...@news.netins.net>, sl...@netins.net (slink) writes:

>
>No, nothing is done with it at this time. However, anyone who is into
>gengineering can play with it. It's under Instincts.

hehehehe! I`ve been messing around with it for ages with the Polar Norns.

Ping - get yes more sig space!!

ICQ: 6283750

*******Pingz Nornz*************

http://www.crosswinds.net/birmingham/%7Enorndude1/Pingz-Nornz1.htm

Home of the Multimedia Pack
**********************************

Brad Fermanich

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Feb 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/12/98
to

slink wrote:
> <grin> My first feeble attempt at the anti-incest norns had "if IT is
> my parent and I push (anything), punish me" and resulted in norns
> which would not eat food in front of their parents.
>
> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/

LOL...How about if Abe has a daughter Becky...and Abe and Becky have
Chuck...Isnt Becky Chucks sister now? (Abe is father to them both).
Therefore Becky is both Chuck's sibling and parent. You could do
something with: it IT is my parent AND IT is my sibling...run.
heheheh

Ping3506

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Feb 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/13/98
to

In article <34e31f62...@news.netins.net>, sl...@netins.net (slink) writes:

>
><grin> My first feeble attempt at the anti-incest norns had "if IT is
>my parent and I push (anything), punish me" and resulted in norns
>which would not eat food in front of their parents.

LOL!! how about Norns who do not Talk in front of their parents... sounds
little more realistic to me!! <g>

Lis 'Potato' Morris

unread,
Feb 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/15/98
to


>
><large snip>
>>
>>Here's how I define the problem: one parent of sex 1 with a "good"
>>dominant and a "bad" recessive mates with two different parents of sex


Problem. We're talking haploid here.... dominant and recessive don;t come
into it... only one copy of a gene is present in any norn... so they can;t
have dominant/recessive genes... it don';t work that way :-)

>>2. How many generations would have to pass before the possible offspring
>>from similarly numbered generations could mate with no chance of getting
>>that bad recessive trait?
>>
>>Pleasant dreams, kiddies...
>>
>>--David
>
>Wouldn't that depend on how fatal the recessive was, either to the
>norns or to their ability to reproduce?

Cetainly would... but it's not a situation that can occur in norns... gimme
a figure of selection for the bad gene and I'll work it out..eventually...
it involves those nasty differential equations and stuff...
I'm a BSc of Plant sciences, with a certain amount of maths in there two
<g>....

Lis Morris,
Potato Lady Extraordinaire!
Get your hippy norns here!
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/morris_family/hippy.htm


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