C2 Sybex Book Bad for Grens
PookLaRoux
know, the manual supplement?)
"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
the Grendels forever."
(sad little whimper noise) I'm afraid my Albia would not be the same
without Gruce and his guitar licks. I hope that isn't "the point" of
this "game"!
See the rest of the text here=>
Denise L. Voskuil
<pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book ( you
>know, the manual supplement?)
>
>"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
> the Grendels forever."
>
>(sad little whimper noise) I'm afraid my Albia would not be the same
>without Gruce and his guitar licks. I hope that isn't "the point" of
>this "game"!
Wha? Grrr...
>See the rest of the text here=>
>
>http://www.sybex.com/cgi-bin/games_bookpg.pl?2440back.html
"Explore a dangerous and exciting new world as your Creatures fight
the vicious Grendels and attempt to restore peace to their home."
"Vicious"?! Mine hangs out peacefully with the ettin. Vicious,
indeed... <grumble, grah>
- Denise
--
Denise L. Voskuil-Marré - dvos...@mcs.com or grend...@hotmail.com
The Truth About Grendels! - <http://welcome.to/grendels/>
C-ADD-BLOCK: 1.2g: AMD d+() s+: a-- x- t+@:++@ C+ rN+ A-- S-
gQ/W--- W+ P--- Gd*/S--:,Civilization/p*/o++:+++,Tomba,
Pocket Fighter,Monster Rancher,Tekken 3,Diablo,Klonoa
slink
<pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book ( you
>know, the manual supplement?)
>
>"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
> the Grendels forever."
>
>(sad little whimper noise) I'm afraid my Albia would not be the same
>without Gruce and his guitar licks. I hope that isn't "the point" of
>this "game"!
>
>See the rest of the text here=>
>
>http://www.sybex.com/cgi-bin/games_bookpg.pl?2440back.html
From the title page of the C2 "manual":
"With dangers lurking around every corner, you're going to have to be
on guard if you and your family of Norns are ever going to build a
peaceful existence. Ultimately, you may even find the genetic
splicing machine and your chance to rid Albia of the menace of the
vicious Grendels forever."
From the preface of same:
"Explore a dangerous and exciting new world, leading to the discovery
of the place where the Norns themselves were created. . . . At some
point, you'll bump into the vicious Grendels - disease ridden, violent
creatures created by accident by the Shee many thousands of years
ago." [note use of plural]
But on a funny note, here's one from the Appendix.
"A complete functioning ecology will unravel on your screen."
I don't know what "unravel" means to the rest of you, but to me means
"come apart". <g>
I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
our enemy. We don't have to do it, though. :)
--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
GEEK CODE Version 3.12: GS>AT !d(++)@ s:+ a+ C+++($) !U(C/H$) P(+)@
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R+ tv-- b++(++++)@ DI++++ D G e++++ h+(++)($) r+++ x+++
Martha Brummett
>
>>I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book ( you
>>know, the manual supplement?)
So where's the sample chapter this time?
Martha Brummett
Piratical Maid-of-All-Work, P.B.* Jolly Weeble
mo...@diac.com
Bonadrey Nornery
http://www.diac.com/~mokus/bonadrey.html
* Pirate Brig
pookl...@geocities.com
comment or two about Albian mythology. Just So You Know...)
Now here's an odd thought, the Ettin and Grendel eggs just pop out at
intervals after the last Ettin/Grendel dies or is exported. Both kinds of
eggs pop out in the same area (literally, I've seen ettin eggs drop on on top
of another gren egg) this makes me think the "mother" of the grens and ettins
is a gen machine rather than a clutch of eggs. That and the fact that no one
ever "runs out" of ettins -- not even the way we do with original hatchery
eggs (where you can push a button to get an emergency supply. Though we know
the Norn eggs are geengineered by the Creatures interface. How else could an
emergency supply be generated from a long extinct race? Hmmm?)
As far as can be seen, ungeengineered Ettins and Grendles don't have the
ability to propogate, so therefore, to rid the world of them, one would have
to destroy the clutch or mechanism whereby the eggs are produced. That
really doesn't seem like a worthy challenge. We don't approve of genocide in
the world, why support it in Albia?
And, how many utterly destructive items have you seen in Albia so far? Found
any dynamite and charges for blowing the Grendel clutch higher than the tree
tops? Run into a Tomahawk Warhead Cob lately? How realistic is it to set a
goal like "destroy all the grens" when we don't have any tools to get the job
done? I haven't yet found the big red button that bears a label reading "NO
NORN PUSH BUTTON" because it's the Albia self-destruct mechanism. (Ho, that
would be the first cob everyone wanted -- the "Destroy the Self-Destruct
Button" cob, can you imagine trying to keep your norns from pushing that once
they got it in their heads to do so?)
That's not what this game is about for most of us (I mean, except for that
guy that made Norn Quake) It just kind of irks me that no one told the
publicity team that so they could write decent ad copy. It's advertising like
that the kapet me away from C1 for so long -- if I had realized what it was
really about, I'd have been on it a lot faster.
<snip> Ultimately, you may even find the genetic
> splicing machine and your chance to rid Albia of the menace of the
> vicious Grendels forever."
>
> I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
> learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
> our enemy. We don't have to do it, though. :)
>
> --
> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
> GEEK CODE Version 3.12: GS>AT !d(++)@ s:+ a+ C+++($) !U(C/H$) P(+)@
> L E? W++ N++ o? K? w(++)@ O !M V(+) PS+() PE(++)@ Y+ PGP? t++@ 5? X?
> R+ tv-- b++(++++)@ DI++++ D G e++++ h+(++)($) r+++ x+++
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
pookl...@geocities.com
Wafuru
pookl...@geocities.com wrote:
> (warning -- this is pseudo game strategy talk mixed with an analytical
> comment or two about Albian mythology. Just So You Know...)
>
> Now here's an odd thought, the Ettin and Grendel eggs just pop out at
> intervals after the last Ettin/Grendel dies or is exported. Both kinds of
> eggs pop out in the same area (literally, I've seen ettin eggs drop on on top
> of another gren egg) this makes me think the "mother" of the grens and ettins
> is a gen machine rather than a clutch of eggs. That and the fact that no one
> ever "runs out" of ettins -- not even the way we do with original hatchery
> eggs (where you can push a button to get an emergency supply. Though we know
> the Norn eggs are geengineered by the Creatures interface. How else could an
> emergency supply be generated from a long extinct race? Hmmm?)
How's that possible? The Ettin eggs come from the splicing machine, nowhere near
the Grendel nest. Grendles hatch from the eggs near the ocean, Ettis from the
splicing machine. How could an Ettin egg drop onto a grendel egg if they aren't
anywhere near each other? I mean, correct if I'm wrong, ne?
--
Watashi no namae wa Wafuru desu.
http://www.telesouth1.com/~ryouko/creatures/norn.html
ICQ #9973930
---
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- Dave
---
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.sig, there may have been something useful in it.)
***
Perfect981
>I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
>learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
It is obviously a conspiracy against the Grendel. Isn't it obvious the Grendel
was never the enemy it was the protector of Albia and once it is gone Cyberlife
will be able to invade Albia without any creature definding it i mean Norns and
Etthins are to weak to defend the home land. (Look closely Toby is hiding in
the game waiting and watching for us to make a crucial mistake and destroy the
only thing protecting the world of Albia) until further notice /looks around
paranoid\ Don't Trust Anybody...
Vist my web site "Avatar's Incubator" at,
http://members.aol.com/Perfect981/Homepage
Torturer of Souls,
Avatar of Dreams,
Insanity is Humanity without a Mask,
-Welcome To Insanity-
-Perfect981-
100% Unstable
Denise L. Voskuil
>And, how many utterly destructive items have you seen in Albia so far? Found
>any dynamite and charges for blowing the Grendel clutch higher than the tree
>tops? Run into a Tomahawk Warhead Cob lately? How realistic is it to set a
>goal like "destroy all the grens" when we don't have any tools to get the job
>done?
They must want us to push the baby grendels into the
oh-so-conveniently located airlock and drown them! Why else would
they put the eggs there? *sob*
:)
>That's not what this game is about for most of us (I mean, except for that
>guy that made Norn Quake).
That was a joke, actually - it's not downloadable. :) (I didn't know
myself until Mannaz _said_ it was a joke...)
slink
>
>
>pookl...@geocities.com wrote:
>
>> (warning -- this is pseudo game strategy talk mixed with an analytical
>> comment or two about Albian mythology. Just So You Know...)
>>
>> Now here's an odd thought, the Ettin and Grendel eggs just pop out at
>> intervals after the last Ettin/Grendel dies or is exported. Both kinds of
>> eggs pop out in the same area (literally, I've seen ettin eggs drop on on top
>> of another gren egg) this makes me think the "mother" of the grens and ettins
>> is a gen machine rather than a clutch of eggs. That and the fact that no one
>> ever "runs out" of ettins -- not even the way we do with original hatchery
>> eggs (where you can push a button to get an emergency supply. Though we know
>> the Norn eggs are geengineered by the Creatures interface. How else could an
>> emergency supply be generated from a long extinct race? Hmmm?)
>
>How's that possible? The Ettin eggs come from the splicing machine, nowhere near
>the Grendel nest. Grendles hatch from the eggs near the ocean, Ettis from the
>splicing machine. How could an Ettin egg drop onto a grendel egg if they aren't
>anywhere near each other? I mean, correct if I'm wrong, ne?
In the beta version the ettins and grendels both dropped (in the egg)
out of the splicer egg machine. Since I've seen the s16 file of a
broken bronze-ish egg and some of you say that the clutch of eggs in
the tunnel is where grendels come from now, I guess I believe it.
Martha Brummett
>That's not what this game is about for most of us (I mean, except for that
>guy that made Norn Quake)
It was Mannaz--I didn't quite understand the parody, but I'm sure it's
apt.
> It just kind of irks me that no one told the
>publicity team that so they could write decent ad copy. It's advertising like
>that the kapet me away from C1 for so long -- if I had realized what it was
>really about, I'd have been on it a lot faster.
I feel the same. I wish I'd gotten C1 much earlier than I did.
Besides the ad copy, I was repelled by the pictures of the Norn and
Grendel on the box. They're much nicer in reality--wish I could say
the same for C2.
PookLaRoux
are because I have some kind of beta version? I haven't yet found
anything even vaguely like a nest or grendle eggs near a beach, and I
did see and watch hatch a grendle egg and an ettin egg drop out of the
splicer right at the same spot.
Is that possible, Slink? that I might have a beta? I bought it at
Software Etc (which I think is really Babbages)
<snip>
> >> Now here's an odd thought, the Ettin and Grendel eggs just pop out at
> >> intervals after the last Ettin/Grendel dies or is exported. Both kinds of
> >> eggs pop out in the same area (literally, I've seen ettin eggs drop on on top
> >> of another gren egg) <snip>
PookLaRoux
spoof. <G>
>
<snip> (I mean, except for that
Lazy Bone
submarine dock. The baby grendal was sitting next to the clutch which
showed a broken eggshell. I'm not sure if the broken eggshell ever
disappeared or whether it was just a permanent part of the room.
Maybe the grendal egg appears near the sub dock when the machine
ejects it. Someone should count the eggs there to see if the total
number in the clutch dwindles or not.
The other scenario is that the baby grendal opens the door near where
ettins are hatched, walks over to the lift, travels to the top, gets
out of the lift, and walks over to the clutch... (doubtful).
<snip>
> >did see and watch hatch a grendle egg and an ettin egg drop out of the
> >splicer right at the same spot.
> >
> >Is that possible, Slink? that I might have a beta? I bought it at
> >Software Etc (which I think is really Babbages)
> >
>
> Begging the whole topic of released software which ought be called
> beta, I doubt you have a beta copy. There is anest of eggs next to
> the submarine bay which some people say is where grendels come from.
> There is an S16 file that had an egg like the ones in that pile,
> hatched. I have never seen where the grendel comes from in the
> release version, but it did come from the egg machine in the beta. I
> simply don't know all the facts here. :)
>
> And yes, Babbage's was bought by Software Etc. :)
Catalina 'Lady Cat'
Yes, I happened to be in the right place once, and saw a grendel hatch from
one of those eggs, I was surprised, because I had always thought it came
from the machine like the ettin.
slink wrote:
> There is anest of eggs next to
> the submarine bay which some people say is where grendels come from.
> There is an S16 file that had an egg like the ones in that pile,
> hatched. I have never seen where the grendel comes from in the
> release version, but it did come from the egg machine in the beta. I
> simply don't know all the facts here. :)
>
--
Lady Cat, of the Peter Pan Clan. :)
Gooseberry Garden C2 http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709
My Paintings http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709/vicki.htm
pig...@idir.net
Norn...@aol.com
Lis Morris
slink wrote in message <36018987...@news.netins.net>...
>On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:17:51 -0500, Wafuru <igu...@annex.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>pookl...@geocities.com wrote:
>>
>>> (warning -- this is pseudo game strategy talk mixed with an analytical
>>> comment or two about Albian mythology. Just So You Know...)
>>>
>>> intervals after the last Ettin/Grendel dies or is exported. Both kinds
of
>>> eggs pop out in the same area (literally, I've seen ettin eggs drop on
on top
ettins
>>> is a gen machine rather than a clutch of eggs. That and the fact that
no one
>>> ever "runs out" of ettins -- not even the way we do with original
hatchery
>>> eggs (where you can push a button to get an emergency supply. Though we
know
>>> the Norn eggs are geengineered by the Creatures interface. How else
could an
>>> emergency supply be generated from a long extinct race? Hmmm?)
>>
nowhere near
>>the Grendel nest. Grendles hatch from the eggs near the ocean, Ettis
from the
>>splicing machine. How could an Ettin egg drop onto a grendel egg if they
aren't
>>anywhere near each other? I mean, correct if I'm wrong, ne?
>
>In the beta version the ettins and grendels both dropped (in the egg)
>out of the splicer egg machine. Since I've seen the s16 file of a
>broken bronze-ish egg and some of you say that the clutch of eggs in
>the tunnel is where grendels come from now, I guess I believe it.
>
>--
>Sandra -
It definitely is where the grendels come from- I've watched a grendel hatch.
No question.
I think it's better to let the grendel wander about, anyway. If you drown
him, you'll get another one, and another genfile and sprite file along in a
few minutes, clogging up your hard disk. Let him wander about in the
volcano.. doesn't do anyone any harm :-). Except to himself- the heavy metal
there destroys his bones. Ergh.
--
Lis Morris,
Evil Shee potato grower, and namer of Borland.
<deep breath>
New c2 norns with improved genome,
The new c1 world, Terra Nornia,
The Shee- a new c1 species,
Hippy norns, grorns and grendel pensioner sprites.
More C2 stuff on its way!
<gasp>
Get all the above by following this link:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/morris_family/hippy.htm
Argh it's a geekcode! www.geekcode.com
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
"When you've got your back to the wall, the only thing
you can do is turn around and fight"-John Major.
slink
<pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>Gee now I am wondering if some of the itty bitty problems I am having
>are because I have some kind of beta version? I haven't yet found
>anything even vaguely like a nest or grendle eggs near a beach, and I
>did see and watch hatch a grendle egg and an ettin egg drop out of the
>splicer right at the same spot.
>
>Is that possible, Slink? that I might have a beta? I bought it at
>Software Etc (which I think is really Babbages)
>
Begging the whole topic of released software which ought be called
beta, I doubt you have a beta copy. There is anest of eggs next to
the submarine bay which some people say is where grendels come from.
There is an S16 file that had an egg like the ones in that pile,
hatched. I have never seen where the grendel comes from in the
release version, but it did come from the egg machine in the beta. I
simply don't know all the facts here. :)
And yes, Babbage's was bought by Software Etc. :)
--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
Jcarrcwalk
>learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
I don't think there's really any way to make grendels be REALLY mean, I guess
you could make them immune to the effects of antigens and have them start with
a consentration of antigens. I've tried a lot of stuff, even getting rid of all
brain cells except push and norn doesn't seem to work? What's up with this
"evil grendel" stuff?
Andrew
Jcarrcwalk
>ability to propogate, so therefore, to rid the world of them, one would have
>to destroy the clutch or mechanism whereby the eggs are produced. That
>really doesn't seem like a worthy challenge
I think it'll be a month tops before someone identifies the mother and makes a
remover. As to genocide, I don't think it is because they aren't being created,
more like contraseption or a vasectomy or whatever.
Andrew
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
<pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book ( you
>know, the manual supplement?)
>
>"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
> the Grendels forever."
<mumblemumble Cyberlife PROPOGANDA mumble...> ;^)
Mae Tang
(replace "nospam" with "nu-it" for a valid e-mail address)
Helen
Helen
Jcarrcwalk <jcarr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199809150311...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
pookl...@geocities.com
300+ websites we have created and all the activity on the NG. I think
someone still thinks they have to put in "game"-y elements, like good guys,
bad guys (grendels), goal-oriented play (push the power ups) and the concept
of fear and violence (that grendels carry disease and will hurt norns blah
blah blah). I don't have a problem with those being elective elements of
play, but those aren't my main reasons for playing.
Actually, I am in a difficult period of play right now, getting my norns
through a few generations so they calm down and gain better behaviors. I am
so glad there is a power up workaround because it would be so frustrating not
having all the applets needed for advanced norn care at this early stage in
their development. I most enjoy watching well conditioned (ie communicate
well, eat on their own, express their feelings) Norns interact with each
other with minimal intervention from Hand. That's not to say I don't enjoy
interacting with them, I do. But I find it most interesting to let them just
be Norns and see what happens. they surprise me.
In article <199809150308...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Carolyn Horn
writes:
>
> On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:20:06 -0400, PookLaRoux
> <pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> >I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book (
> >you know, the manual supplement?)
> >
> >"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
> > the Grendels forever."
[snip interesting anti-Grendel xenophobia from Cyberlife manual]
> But on a funny note, here's one from the Appendix.
>
> "A complete functioning ecology will unravel on your screen."
>
> I don't know what "unravel" means to the rest of you, but to me means
> "come apart". <g>
LOL! I _think_ there is no other meaning for that word...
> I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
> learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
> our enemy. We don't have to do it, though. :)
>
> --
> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
Yay, Slink! Let us gather together and eradicate hate from Albia! By
the way, have you pinpointed the script that can be changed to make a C2
world Grendel-friendly? <dashing off to look through the fantastic C2
scriptorium again>
Carolyn
slink
>>I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
>>learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
>>our enemy. We don't have to do it, though. :)
>
>I don't think there's really any way to make grendels be REALLY mean, I guess
>you could make them immune to the effects of antigens and have them start with
>a consentration of antigens. I've tried a lot of stuff, even getting rid of all
>brain cells except push and norn doesn't seem to work? What's up with this
>"evil grendel" stuff?
>Andrew
I think originally they were supposed to track down and kill norns. I
think I could make them carniverous (norniverous?) if I tried a little
bit. However, if they were as successful as the norns are at finding
what they need it would be the world's shortest scourge of a dreaded
predator. <g>
--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
slink
>>Grendles don't have the
>>ability to propogate, so therefore, to rid the world of them, one would have
>>to destroy the clutch or mechanism whereby the eggs are produced. That
>>really doesn't seem like a worthy challenge
>
>I think it'll be a month tops before someone identifies the mother and makes a
>remover. As to genocide, I don't think it is because they aren't being created,
>more like contraseption or a vasectomy or whatever.
>Andrew
It's now about -1 weeks. <g>
slink
>Has anyone discovered the Grendel mother yet?
>
> Helen
>
>Jcarrcwalk <jcarr...@aol.com> wrote in article
><199809150311...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>> >Grendles don't have the
>> >ability to propogate, so therefore, to rid the world of them, one would
>have
>> >to destroy the clutch or mechanism whereby the eggs are produced. That
>> >really doesn't seem like a worthy challenge
>>
>> I think it'll be a month tops before someone identifies the mother and
>makes a
>> remover. As to genocide, I don't think it is because they aren't being
>created,
>> more like contraseption or a vasectomy or whatever.
>> Andrew
>>
It's listed in the C2 Scriptorium on my website.
Lis Morris
slink wrote in message <360167a6...@news.netins.net>...
>On 15 Sep 1998 03:08:29 GMT, jcarr...@aol.com (Jcarrcwalk) wrote:
>
>>>I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
>>>learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
>>>our enemy. We don't have to do it, though. :)
>>
>>I don't think there's really any way to make grendels be REALLY mean, I
guess
>>you could make them immune to the effects of antigens and have them start
with
>>a consentration of antigens. I've tried a lot of stuff, even getting rid
of all
>>brain cells except push and norn doesn't seem to work? What's up with this
>>"evil grendel" stuff?
>>Andrew
>
>I think originally they were supposed to track down and kill norns. I
>think I could make them carniverous (norniverous?) if I tried a little
>bit. However, if they were as successful as the norns are at finding
>what they need it would be the world's shortest scourge of a dreaded
>predator. <g>
>
>--
>Sandra
I always liked the suggestion someone put here a while back, after hearing
that the ettins were scavengers, that maybe they are dead norns...<snort>. I
suppose it appealed to my sick sense of humour.
I can't see a C2 grendel being a predator... if these creatures only eat
when young, it'd be ironic that a full grown grendel would not be a threat,
but the little baby would be a terror in the night...
Lis Morris
Carolyn Horn wrote in message <568988...@horn.demon.co.uk>...
>In article: <35ff0fd2...@news.netins.net> sl...@netins.net (slink)
>writes:
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:20:06 -0400, PookLaRoux
>> <pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book
>> >you know, the manual supplement?)
>> >
>> >"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
>> > the Grendels forever."
>
>[snip interesting anti-Grendel xenophobia from Cyberlife manual]
>
>> But on a funny note, here's one from the Appendix.
>>
>> "A complete functioning ecology will unravel on your screen."
>>
>> I don't know what "unravel" means to the rest of you, but to me means
>> "come apart". <g>
>
>LOL! I _think_ there is no other meaning for that word...
>
>> I'd say that CyberLife does indeed intend that we should at long last
>> learn to hate and destroy the creature they intended all along to be
>> our enemy. We don't have to do it, though. :)
>>
>> --
>> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
>
>Yay, Slink! Let us gather together and eradicate hate from Albia! By
>the way, have you pinpointed the script that can be changed to make a C2
>world Grendel-friendly? <dashing off to look through the fantastic C2
>scriptorium again>
>
>Carolyn
>
I've noticed the 'doif gnus' command is still there, but there seem to be
more alternative commands after it than before.. at some point I'll try
making a grendel friendly world, but I'm not sure I'll be able to tell the
difference between the diseased, vicious grendel and the friendly one <g>.
If you look at the genetics of the grendel, it's interesting to see that in
fact they do not use up glucose to create antigen, and therefore are
actually better at fighting disease than norns are!
Denise L. Voskuil
>I think that the folks at Cyberlife didn't give us enough credit despite the
>300+ websites we have created and all the activity on the NG. I think
>someone still thinks they have to put in "game"-y elements, like good guys,
>bad guys (grendels), goal-oriented play (push the power ups) and the concept
>of fear and violence (that grendels carry disease and will hurt norns blah
>blah blah). I don't have a problem with those being elective elements of
>play, but those aren't my main reasons for playing.
Remember, though, that a lot of that marketing is for people who have never
seen Creatures 1, don't have internet access, etc. They want to make it sound
really interesting and intriguing, and so forth - scary, nasty grendels, and
all of that. Not something like "grendels are just norns that we sterilized,
forced behavior changes on, and altered the sprites and voices," and so forth.
Cyberlife probably figures that the active Internet 'community' around
Creatures will find out how things 'really' are in the game regardless of how
they market it. :)
- Denise
--
Denise L. Voskuil-Marre - dvoskuil@: uic.edu/mcs.com/eden.com
http://www.uic.edu/~dvoskuil/
I'm too low in the hierarchy at UIC to officially even
*have* an opinion, so this sure isn't theirs.
pookl...@geocities.com
"Lis Morris" <lis_m...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> slink wrote in message <360167a6...@news.netins.net>...
> >On 15 Sep 1998 03:08:29 GMT, jcarr...@aol.com (Jcarrcwalk) wrote:
> when young, it'd be ironic that a full grown grendel would not be a threat,
> but the little baby would be a terror in the night...
> --
>
Only eat when young? You mean they ONLY eat when they are babies? Y'know,
I've really not been paying much attention to Gruce and Grim (my Grens), but
I suppose you are right I haven't honestly seen them eat or push anything.
Ping
pookl...@geocities.com wrote in message
<6tlono$rha$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I think that the folks at Cyberlife didn't give us enough credit despite
the
>300+ websites we have created and all the activity on the NG. I think
Well said. It`s like I was saying a while ago, they seem to have dropped
the more advanced Artificial Life idea to go with some kind of Video Game
style thing. Hats? mugs? T-shirts? they`re all going too far, bringing in
(a few) dumb people (sorry) who have no idea what C1 was, no idea what AL
is, and who (eventually) will rip the whole online deal apart.
-Just my chaos theory acting up again <twitch>
__
ICQ: 6283750
--
Ping`s Creatures
_
http://www.albia.demon.co.uk/creatures/
_
--
"STEALING!! how could you. Haven`t you learned anything from
that guy who gives those sermons in church? captain what`s-his-name? We live
in a Society of Laws. Why do you think I took you to all those
Police Academy Movies? FOR FUN!! well I didn`t see anyone else
laughing, DID YOU!! except at that guy who made the sounds...
weeeew...honk honk...mmmvvv...mvvvv.....KABOOOOM!! now, where
was I? oh yah...STAY OUTTA' MY BOOZE!!"
--
------BEGIN_C-ADD_CODE_BLOCK----
Version Number: 1.2gAO d-- s? a--- Z- t+++:+++ C+
rC++/c-/B++/N+/E1-,2++,3?,4+,5++,6+,7++,8+,9-/O---/o+:,o++:,Norn-fam-tree
A-- S++ gQ+++/W1-,2,4+,5+,6+++ W--- P-
G/d-:,JediKnight,MotS,Duke3D,Unreal/S--:,Settlers,Settlers2/p*/ %%
o:Grand-Theft-Auto,Metal-Knights-98,X-wing-vs-Tie-Fighter, %%
Rebel-Assault-II,Dark-Forces-1,SNSM,Breath-Of-Fire-2
-----END_C-ADD_CODE_BLOCK-----
.
And WHY are you looking down here? the Sig is up there.
Carolyn Horn
>
>
> Carolyn Horn wrote in message <568988...@horn.demon.co.uk>...
>
> >By the way, have you pinpointed the script that can be changed to
> >make a C2 world Grendel-friendly? <dashing off to look through the
> >fantastic C2 scriptorium again>
> >
> >Carolyn
>
> I've noticed the 'doif gnus' command is still there, but there seem to
> be more alternative commands after it than before.. at some point I'll
> try making a grendel friendly world, but I'm not sure I'll be able to
> tell the difference between the diseased, vicious grendel and the
> friendly one <g>.
Maybe you should forget all about that "diseased, vicious grendel" ;->
Just a nice grendel-friendly world... Ah, that would be good.
> If you look at the genetics of the grendel, it's
> interesting to see that in fact they do not use up glucose to create
> antigen, and therefore are actually better at fighting disease than
> norns are!
> --
> Lis Morris,
Hmm, that's intriguing! Maybe it's the norns who were the genetic
mistakes and the Grendels the true heirs of Albia all along, and
Cyberlife got it all wrong in their manual...
Carolyn
slink
What Lis meant was that the norns forget how to eat by the time they
adults, so adult norn-eating grendels would be harmless. I'm not sure
grendels do eat, and ettins suffer for doing so.
--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
NORNGod
I think the grendels are sweeter than the norns half the time. I have
only had one norn grendel encounter so far, and they just kissed and
went on their own way. I think CL boo booed on them again. I like to
give 'em a quick vocab with the cheats, and let go do their own thing.
--
!START!
Keep on going....
Just a little further....
Not much longer.....
Argh, this is to long.....
Yay! You made it! Welcome to my sig <g>:
NORNGod (Call me NG if you please)
Get it right: *NORNGod*, not NornGOD, norngod, NORNgod, norn god,
nornGod, Norngod, NORN god, norn GOD, or anything else that isn't
NORNGod.
This SIG has been thouroghly tes3uted, and chsecked for tpyos.
Pleqase reportt any misstajkes to the folowing emial:
nor...@hotmail.com
Please take a moment out of your busy schedule to visit my site:
NORNGod's NORNMania!
http://members.xoom.com/norngod
(I love site plugs <bg>)
Oh yeah, there's my personal page too:
Drew Styring's HomePage:
http://members.xoom.com/dstyring
Please refrain from making stupid "Your the god of the norns" jokes.
::glares at SteerPike::
I hate sig quotes... er I'm just to lazy too look for any. <g>
I also hate:
o Trolls
Ž Mman
Ž Evakz
Ž Cpt Sissy
Ž BuddhaMage
o Navens
o Stupid people (see above two)
o Cpt Sissy
o ICE chat morons
Ž MoonShadow
My own quote (!):
"If we wiped out everyone idiot from this world, 75% of the human
population would go.. along with 98% of the internet."
Is this sig a little negative? Please say so: ICQ# - 17970500
You've survived my sig! Hurray! It's all over! Yippy! Ok I'll shut up
now.
NORNGod
>
> Yes, I happened to be in the right place once, and saw a grendel hatch from
> one of those eggs, I was surprised, because I had always thought it came
> from the machine like the ettin.
I havn't seen a grendel hatch, but I sorta saw it in the .s16 file. CL
did a good job on the eggs... that goo that comes out on the sides and
stuff.
Denise L. Voskuil
>What Lis meant was that the norns forget how to eat by the time they
>adults, so adult norn-eating grendels would be harmless. I'm not sure
>grendels do eat, and ettins suffer for doing so.
What? Grendels don't eat and ettins suffer if they do? Yeesh, I taught both
of mine to eat - maybe I shouldn't have!
- Denise
The Truth About Grendels: <http://welcome.to/grendels/>
slink
wrote:
>In article <35ffaae7...@news.netins.net>, sl...@netins.net says...
>>What Lis meant was that the norns forget how to eat by the time they
>>adults, so adult norn-eating grendels would be harmless. I'm not sure
>>grendels do eat, and ettins suffer for doing so.
>
>What? Grendels don't eat and ettins suffer if they do? Yeesh, I taught both
>of mine to eat - maybe I shouldn't have!
>
>- Denise
>
>The Truth About Grendels: <http://welcome.to/grendels/>
Not to worry, there will be non-suffering Ettins soon enough. :)
Martha Brummett
>Well said. It`s like I was saying a while ago, they seem to have dropped
>the more advanced Artificial Life idea to go with some kind of Video Game
>style thing.
Precisely. This programmed "Norn intensifier adjective, verb noun."
thing is, I think, the most blatant example.
Martha Brummett
Piratical Maid-of-All-Work, P.B.* Jolly Weeble
mo...@diac.com
Bonadrey Nornery
http://www.diac.com/~mokus/bonadrey.html
* Pirate Brig
PookLaRoux
<snip> Hats? mugs? T-shirts? they`re all going too far, <snip>
Oh, now wait, Ping -- those I'd buy <wink!!> C'mon! Who wouldn't want
a T-shirt with a Toby Simpson on the front and a Grendel on the back!!!
PookLaRoux
>
> "Ping" <Pi...@albia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Well said. It`s like I was saying a while ago, they seem to have dropped
> >the more advanced Artificial Life idea to go with some kind of Video Game
> >style thing.
>
> Precisely. This programmed "Norn intensifier adjective, verb noun."
> thing is, I think, the most blatant example.
Yes, that kind of threw me the first time I heard it
Catalina 'Lady Cat'
them started growing, then later there was movement inside the egg, then it
hatched. :) A few moments later the empty egg vanished.
NORNGod wrote:
--
Lady Cat, of the Peter Pan Clan. :)
Gooseberry Garden C2 http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709
My Paintings http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709/vicki.htm
pig...@idir.net
Norn...@aol.com
Lazy Bone
----------
DG
slink
What I can't figure out is why they didn't put a space between the
words in comenorn and runnorn. I realize that those two statements
must be different from the rest since there has to be a variable
species name but I also know you can put a space between output
variables in C++. :)
--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
Denise L. Voskuil
>What I can't figure out is why they didn't put a space between the
>words in comenorn and runnorn. I realize that those two statements
>must be different from the rest since there has to be a variable
>species name but I also know you can put a space between output
>variables in C++. :)
In C1, my norns would often come up with "runnorn" themselves, after a
while. And I _think_ that in C2, my ettin said "comeettin" and the
grendel "comegrendel" in their first compound sentences.
- Denise
--
Denise L. Voskuil-Marré - dvos...@mcs.com or grend...@hotmail.com
The Truth About Grendels! - <http://welcome.to/grendels/>
C-ADD-BLOCK: 1.2g: AMD d+() s+: a-- x- t+@:++@ C+ rN+ A-- S-
gQ/W--- W+ P--- Gd*/S--:,Civilization/p*/o++:+++,Tomba,
Pocket Fighter,Monster Rancher,Tekken 3,Diablo,Klonoa
slink
<pig...@idir.net> wrote:
>Today I exported a Grendel, and waited while watching the grendel eggs. One of
>them started growing, then later there was movement inside the egg, then it
>hatched. :) A few moments later the empty egg vanished.
>
Proof definitive. :)
slink
wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:24:11 GMT, sl...@netins.net (slink) wrote:
>>What I can't figure out is why they didn't put a space between the
>>words in comenorn and runnorn. I realize that those two statements
>>must be different from the rest since there has to be a variable
>>species name but I also know you can put a space between output
>>variables in C++. :)
>
>In C1, my norns would often come up with "runnorn" themselves, after a
>while. And I _think_ that in C2, my ettin said "comeettin" and the
>grendel "comegrendel" in their first compound sentences.
>
>- Denise
"runnorn" was added at about 1.0.3 in C1, as I recall. :)
slink
wrote:
>Do the hybrids have to eat?
>----------
>DG
>
It will depend on which genes get inherited.
Lis Morris
Martha Brummett wrote in message <35fef229...@news.diac.com>...
>"Ping" <Pi...@albia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Well said. It`s like I was saying a while ago, they seem to have dropped
>>the more advanced Artificial Life idea to go with some kind of Video Game
>>style thing.
>
>Precisely. This programmed "Norn intensifier adjective, verb noun."
>thing is, I think, the most blatant example.
>
I presumed that was programmed in to give them the appearence of greater
intelligence than the c1 norns... I think the real step up in c2 is the
world itself, not the norns.. I lvoe the ecosystem.. I tend to set the obs
kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the flowers grow,
or plant pear trees...
Lis Morris
Denise L. Voskuil wrote in message <36012fdd...@news.mcs.net>...
>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:24:11 GMT, sl...@netins.net (slink) wrote:
>>What I can't figure out is why they didn't put a space between the
>>words in comenorn and runnorn. I realize that those two statements
>>must be different from the rest since there has to be a variable
>>species name but I also know you can put a space between output
>>variables in C++. :)
>
>In C1, my norns would often come up with "runnorn" themselves, after a
>while. And I _think_ that in C2, my ettin said "comeettin" and the
>grendel "comegrendel" in their first compound sentences.
>
>- Denise
>
I wonder if 'runnorn' in c1, actually meant the norn was crowded... it seems
likely, since they ones I heard say it were in a crowd. I like the c2 norns
different social interactions- sometimes they like to be alone, or sociable.
Nice realistic change.
Lis Morris
slink wrote in message <3601acb5...@news.netins.net>...
>>>What I can't figure out is why they didn't put a space between the
>>>words in comenorn and runnorn. I realize that those two statements
>>>must be different from the rest since there has to be a variable
>>>species name but I also know you can put a space between output
>>>variables in C++. :)
>>
>>In C1, my norns would often come up with "runnorn" themselves, after a
>>while. And I _think_ that in C2, my ettin said "comeettin" and the
>>grendel "comegrendel" in their first compound sentences.
>>
>>- Denise
>
>
>
>--
>Sandra -
Nope, I've had norns in 1.02 say it, too. They also say 'name tired', and
'name food' not herb, too.
Martha Brummett
>kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the flowers grow,
>or plant pear trees...
I like the rabbit and the bats. I had looked forward to the lemmings,
but perhaps their cycle would have been too difficult to emulate.
pookl...@geocities.com
nest of eggs yet :( How can I find this nest?
In article <35ffaa18...@news.netins.net>,
sl...@netins.net (slink) wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:32:37 -0500, Catalina 'Lady Cat'
> <pig...@idir.net> wrote:
>
> >Today I exported a Grendel, and waited while watching the grendel eggs. One of
> >them started growing, then later there was movement inside the egg, then it
> >hatched. :) A few moments later the empty egg vanished.
> >
>
> Proof definitive. :)
>
> --
> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
> GEEK CODE Version 3.12: GS>AT !d(++)@ s:+ a+ C+++($) !U(C/H$) P(+)@
> L E? W++ N++ o? K? w(++)@ O !M V(+) PS+() PE(++)@ Y+ PGP? t++@ 5? X?
> R+ tv-- b++(++++)@ DI++++ D G e++++ h+(++)($) r+++ x+++
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
pookl...@geocities.com
genetics-type things (trying to convince her that she wants to try this game)
I was telling her about the plants and weather. She was concerned that it
would all be too hard to take care of, what with the Norns themselves
requiring a lot of energy to upkeep. I told her that by and large, the
environment takes care of itself, although you can have a lot of fun helping
it along.
In article <eeP$DrX49GA.186@upnetnews03>,
"Lis Morris" <lis_m...@email.msn.com> wrote:
<snip> I think the real step up in c2 is the
> world itself, not the norns.. I love the ecosystem.. I tend to set the obs
> kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the flowers grow,
> or plant pear trees...
> --
Mark Ashton
First off Pooklaroux wrote:
>I think that the folks at Cyberlife didn't give us enough credit
despite the
>300+ websites we have created and all the activity on the NG. I think
>someone still thinks they have to put in "game"-y elements, like good
guys,
>bad guys (grendels), goal-oriented play (push the power ups) and the
concept
>of fear and violence (that grendels carry disease and will hurt norns
blah
>blah blah).
But maybe you aren't giving us folks at CyberLife enough credit?
The 'gamey' element (powerups to enable kits)is exceptionally small -
and if we'd tried to sell C2 as a game because there were powerups in it
we'd have been laughed off stage!
The fact there is good guys and bad guys is really a marketing thing -
as far as I am concerned there's just guys, but they interact
differently. As for fear and violence, if little bunnies had no concept
of fearing the fox then there would not be many bunnies left! We could
create a world were everything was love and happiness but I think it
would get a bit boring, especially if we are trying to capture behaviour
that *we* recognise from our world. If we were creating a complete
fantasy world that bore no resemblance to ours then these would be good
things to leave out, because then no more bunnies would be terrorised by
foxes.
> I don't have a problem with those being elective elements of
>play, but those aren't my main reasons for playing.
Cool. We are actually in agreement then. They shouldn't really be
*anyones* main reason for playing, the reason for playing is just to
experience the world and make of it what you will :-)
> I am
>so glad there is a power up workaround because it would be so
frustrating not
>having all the applets needed for advanced norn care at this early
stage in
>their development.
Yep - it was always inevitable that the workings of the powerups would
be found - and so disabled. If we'd wanted everyone to have to go
through the process for themselves we'd have made the powerups work in
code ... and not be scripted. One good reason for breaking the kits up
and only releasing them with time and experience is that people don't
get inundated with extra info, another is that the Advanced Science Kit
allows you to inject ANY chemical - if a beginner had this ability from
the beginning then they may be tempted to feed their creature by hand
all the time ... thus robbing it of any chance it had to learn to eat on
it's own.
Then Denise wrote:
>Remember, though, that a lot of that marketing is for people who have
never
>seen Creatures 1, don't have internet access, etc. They want to make
it sound
>really interesting and intriguing, and so forth - scary, nasty
grendels, and
>all of that.
A valid point, well made :-)
> Cyberlife probably figures that the active Internet 'community' around
>Creatures will find out how things 'really' are in the game regardless
of how
>they market it. :)
Also true. As I mentioned before, we don't make these elements
impossible to circumvent - they're there for many reasons but we expect
some people to not want them.
Then Ping wrote:
>Well said. It`s like I was saying a while ago, they seem to have
dropped
>the more advanced Artificial Life idea to go with some kind of Video
Game
>style thing. Hats? mugs? T-shirts? they`re all going too far,
Hmm, dropped is a strong word - BTW, want to buy our
C&C/QUAKE/TombRaider clone #4 ? <grin>
We're still in the business of Alife and intend to stay here, selling
T-shirts to people that want them doesn't suddenly make us a clothes
store. (hmm, interesting idea - CyberLife Soda(TM) anyone?)
And then Martha added:
>Precisely. This programmed "Norn intensifier adjective, verb noun."
>thing is, I think, the most blatant example.
If you mean 'CL isn't using any form of complicated, AL based natural
language parsing/production' then no, we are not in C1 or C2.
The reason for having sentences of this form is to allow easier
interaction between you and your creatures ... this along with the
facial expression has meant that the interface between you and your
creature has been expanded. That's one of the major user plus points, it
may not score academic points - but then we never sold it as an advanced
example of language processing.
But then Lis beat me to it with:
>I presumed that was programmed in to give them the appearence of
greater
>intelligence than the c1 norns... I think the real step up in c2 is the
>world itself, not the norns.. I lvoe the ecosystem.. I tend to set the
obs
>kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the flowers
grow,
>or plant pear trees...
Exactly <grin>.
Although the world has been the main focus of change, the norns *have*
had improvements. The inclusion of organs alone has meant that there's a
more interesting range of behaviour from them, with more biological
plausibility.
I'm glad you liking watching the world go by though - interesting
past-time ;-)
Phew! And that's my 2 cents/pence/centimes/pfennig/<insert currency
here>/ worth
Mark
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Mark Ashton
CyberLife Technology Ltd
Cambridge, England
m@2
[...]
>I presumed that was programmed in to give them the appearence of greater
>intelligence than the c1 norns... I think the real step up in c2 is the
>world itself, not the norns.. I lvoe the ecosystem.. I tend to set the obs
>kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the flowers grow,
>or plant pear trees...
That's how I feel about C2 as well. I think the graphics are awesome,
(except for the grendels' hump back!). I love the ecosystem and mostly
just play around with the ettin and grendel and plant seeds and move
plants and critters around. I love to just watch the system evolve.
* * * * * * * * *
... Evolve or Die ...
m@2
--
Karin (aka m@2) email: emato@gate-dot-net
Homepage: (still under construction)
m@2
[...]
>I like the rabbit and the bats. I had looked forward to the lemmings,
>but perhaps their cycle would have been too difficult to emulate.
Well, the C2 norns act pretty much like lemmings! <eg>
Martha Brummett
of sunken R'lyeh to ululate:
>And then Martha added:
>>Precisely. This programmed "Norn intensifier adjective, verb noun."
>>thing is, I think, the most blatant example.
>
>If you mean 'CL isn't using any form of complicated, AL based natural
>language parsing/production' then no, we are not in C1 or C2.
>The reason for having sentences of this form is to allow easier
>interaction between you and your creatures ... this along with the
>facial expression has meant that the interface between you and your
>creature has been expanded. That's one of the major user plus points, it
>may not score academic points - but then we never sold it as an advanced
>example of language processing.
But that doesn't explain the pause in the creatures' actions before,
during, and after the time the phrase is uttered. They seem to lose
concentration on whatever might have been their focus, and to revert
to the familiar head-banging behavior.
Also, I still maintain that there are gravitational anomalies in the
terrain of C2. That's partly why I've been dredging up my
long-forgotten H.P. Lovecraft shtick. Is this correct, or not? If
not, what is the explanation for creatures hesitating as though there
_were_ a forcefield, as Sonic has described so vividly?
NORNGod
>
> Where is this nest? I have been all around New Albia, and I haven't seen a
> nest of eggs yet :( How can I find this nest?
Go the the Airlock above the gene splicing room. Go down that
hall/tunnel thing just a little ways, you will see some large lights
hanging from the ceiling. Under them is the nest. The eggs are a golden
type color... they sorta look like rocks in the background =)
--
!START!
Keep on going....
Just a little further....
Not much longer.....
Ž BuddhaMage
o Navens
o Stupid people (see above two)
NORNGod
> >
> >>Well said. It`s like I was saying a while ago, they seem to have dropped
> >>the more advanced Artificial Life idea to go with some kind of Video Game
> >>style thing.
> >
> >thing is, I think, the most blatant example.
> >
>
> intelligence than the c1 norns... I think the real step up in c2 is the
> world itself, not the norns.. I lvoe the ecosystem.. I tend to set the obs
> kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the flowers grow,
> or plant pear trees...
That's what I like to do as well. I used to do it in C1 as well... but
it wasn't a "true" eco system, so it got
NORNGod
You guys should have added foxes.. that would have been cool. <G> This
is completely pointless to the subject.. just ignore me. hehehe.. <bg>
Emily Sachs
NORNGod wrote:
>
> You guys should have added foxes.. that would have been cool. <G> This
> is completely pointless to the subject.. just ignore me. hehehe.. <bg>
We _always_ ignore you, NORNGod :) <eg>
> NORNGod (Call me NG if you please)
--
Just a thought from: Emily Sachs
Emy, NORN Liason to Programs of Artificial Intelligence on the Web
Emy of the WolfPack
The Moof Pirate Emy of the Jolly Weeble
Emy, the Grendel Goddess of the Albian Quartity
Emy, the a.g.c Goddess of Comedy and Philosophy
How's that for a load of titles?
(AKA: Elis/Eris/Eilan/Eliantha/Morgan/Nyx/Psyche/Lethe/Elana/
Erida/Iris/Nemesis)
Probably more as I think of them!
<plug>
Visit my Creatures page, home of eem, the unofficial a.g.c mascot!
http://members.xoom.com/Emy/
</plug>
ICQ: 8980276
Mail to:
Emy-...@mediaone.net Emy...@yahoo.com Emy...@hotmail.com
"When you come to the edge of all that you know, you must believe one of
two things; there will be earth upon which to stand, or you will be
given wings to fly."
PookLaRoux
I want to respond to it -- but I want to read the whole thing before I
do! Stupid Stupid Deja News! Arrrgh!
NORNGod wrote:
> You guys should have added foxes.. that would have been cool. <G> This
> is completely pointless to the subject.. just ignore me. hehehe.. <bg>
> --
> !START!
>
> Keep on going....
>
> Just a little further....
>
> Not much longer.....
>
> Argh, this is to long.....
>
> Yay! You made it! Welcome to my sig <g>:
>
> NORNGod (Call me NG if you please)
>
NORNGod
>
> NORNGod wrote:
> >
> > You guys should have added foxes.. that would have been cool. <G> This
> > is completely pointless to the subject.. just ignore me. hehehe.. <bg>
>
*snicker*
Norno
Norno
PookLaRoux wrote in message <35FCA7...@geocities.com>...
>I was over at the Sybex site reading about Toby Simpson's C2 book ( you
>know, the manual supplement?)
>
>"this book is essential reading for anyone hoping to rid Albia of
> the Grendels forever."
>
>(sad little whimper noise) I'm afraid my Albia would not be the same
>without Gruce and his guitar licks. I hope that isn't "the point" of
>this "game"!
>
>See the rest of the text here=>
>
>http://www.sybex.com/cgi-bin/games_bookpg.pl?2440back.html
Emily Sachs
Norno wrote:
>
> Could this possible be the longest thread in NG history :-)
> Norno
You obviously missed the "C2 Explanation?" thread :)
Look in DejaNews; tis quite amusing.
PookLaRoux
> Mark bravely steps up to the podium and into the fray...
> First off Pooklaroux wrote:
I think
> guys,
> >bad guys (grendels), goal-oriented play (push the power ups) and the
> concept
> >of fear and violence (that grendels carry disease and will hurt norns
> blah
> >blah blah).
>
> But maybe you aren't giving us folks at CyberLife enough credit?
Not fair! You know we worship you guys! C1 and C2 are excellent,
incomparable.
> The 'gamey' element (powerups to enable kits)is exceptionally small -
> and if we'd tried to sell C2 as a game because there were powerups in it
> we'd have been laughed off stage!
> The fact there is good guys and bad guys is really a marketing thing -
<snip>
I think that's what the faithful (myself included) are objecting to:
obvious marketing influences. Things that bear no resemblance
whatsoever to the way we interact with Creatures.
I mean, in environments where you are trying to get "new" people
intererested, maybe that wierd kind of marketing works, but those of us
who have been playing have a kind of attitude toward the game, toward
the norns and grendels and other denizens of Albia, that exceeds the
adventure-game mentality.
What if when you bought a dog, there was a rubik's cube attached to a
muzzle that had to be undone before you could feed him or give him
water? We would all be in tears, beacuse we'd be so upset that the dog
was suffering because we couldn't figure out some puzzle. I think
that's how it felt to some people.
I also think that adversarial advertising approach is misleading. The
other game I bought last year was "Twinsen's Odyssey". I wasn't
standing in line for a copy of "Resident Evil II". Those other grendel
sprites would have to be pretty darn gross to make that crowd happy.
> As for fear and violence, if little bunnies had no concept
> of fearing the fox then there would not be many bunnies left! We could
> create a world were everything was love and happiness but I think it
> would get a bit boring, especially if we are trying to capture behaviour
> that *we* recognise from our world.
Yah, I admit there's plenty of violence around. One of my personal
missions is to see if I am downplay that, and to eradicate
misunderstanding, fear, prejudice and resultant violence around me. I
am constantly trying to envision a real world where everyone can get
along -- realistically, despite competing needs and interests, and
without violence or prejudgements based on gender, religion, appearance
or ethnic origin. If that sounds pollyannaish to you, well so be it. I
don't think a game has to be violent and have elements of fear to be
realistic ( or enjoyable.)
One of the best things about being part of this community is that
Cyberlife is part of this community too, so you do know us, deep in our
little norn-loving hearts. It is very cool that the people responsible
for Creatures make posts here. This is really unique NG atmosphere.
Frimlin
>
> First off Pooklaroux wrote:
> >I think that the folks at Cyberlife didn't give us enough credit
> despite the
> >someone still thinks they have to put in "game"-y elements, like good
> guys,
> >bad guys (grendels), goal-oriented play (push the power ups) and the
> concept
> >of fear and violence (that grendels carry disease and will hurt norns
> blah
> >blah blah).
>
>
>
> But maybe you aren't giving us folks at CyberLife enough credit?
Well from what I have seen that is true. People seem eager to minimise
the great things Cyberlife have put into Creatures 2. Now before anyone
says I am trying to suck up to Cyberlife - I frankly don't care. But I
am getting a bit tired of the "Cyberlife didn't do that" "cyberlife made
this mistake" ..etc.. Okay, so the genetics need work but already we've
seen great third party genomes and promise of some new good cyberlife ones.
I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
the wonderful ideas Cyberlife's staff incorporated into C2.
If you disagree with me, great - you are entitled to your own opinion -
but so am I.
> The 'gamey' element (powerups to enable kits)is exceptionally small -
> and if we'd tried to sell C2 as a game because there were powerups in it
> we'd have been laughed off stage!
Agreed. They are small and people now have the choice whether to accept
or disregard them - which is great :) It's good that Cyberlife made
an entertainment product with such versitility.
> The fact there is good guys and bad guys is really a marketing thing -
> as far as I am concerned there's just guys, but they interact
> differently. As for fear and violence, if little bunnies had no concept
> of fearing the fox then there would not be many bunnies left! We could
> create a world were everything was love and happiness but I think it
> would get a bit boring, especially if we are trying to capture behaviour
> that *we* recognise from our world. If we were creating a complete
> fantasy world that bore no resemblance to ours then these would be good
> things to leave out, because then no more bunnies would be terrorised by
> foxes.
>
Yep and thanks to the open-ended quality of Creatures if someone doesn't
like what Cyberlife has done in most cases they can change it to something
they like.
>
>
> > I don't have a problem with those being elective elements of
> >play, but those aren't my main reasons for playing.
>
>
>
> Cool. We are actually in agreement then. They shouldn't really be
> *anyones* main reason for playing, the reason for playing is just to
> experience the world and make of it what you will :-)
>
Agreed.
>
> > I am
> >so glad there is a power up workaround because it would be so
> frustrating not
> >having all the applets needed for advanced norn care at this early
> stage in
> >their development.
>
>
>
> Yep - it was always inevitable that the workings of the powerups would
> be found - and so disabled. If we'd wanted everyone to have to go
> through the process for themselves we'd have made the powerups work in
> code ... and not be scripted. One good reason for breaking the kits up
> and only releasing them with time and experience is that people don't
> get inundated with extra info, another is that the Advanced Science Kit
> allows you to inject ANY chemical - if a beginner had this ability from
> the beginning then they may be tempted to feed their creature by hand
> all the time ... thus robbing it of any chance it had to learn to eat on
> it's own.
>
Agreed. And if a beginner user doesn't like that, thanks to third party
development they don't have to accept it. As you said, if you hadn't
wanted it able to be compromised you would have hard coded it.
<Bobbit SNIP!>
> Hmm, dropped is a strong word - BTW, want to buy our
> C&C/QUAKE/TombRaider clone #4 ? <grin>
> We're still in the business of Alife and intend to stay here, selling
> T-shirts to people that want them doesn't suddenly make us a clothes
> store. (hmm, interesting idea - CyberLife Soda(TM) anyone?)
>
Does it come with real liquid dDNA? <g>
Anyhow, I think my point was made.. let's not disregard Cyberlife's
efforts and turn our backs on them for things we don't like in C2.
They've done a great job and there is obvious evidence of talented,
creative *humans* (- some people seem to forget Cyberlife is a group
of humans not just a name!)
Cyberlife are trying to please us, as when they do they get a $$$
reward. Sounds like an important commercial instinct gene if you
ask me <G>
Cheers,
slink
wrote:
>I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
> you are entitled to your own opinion
Isn't this a bit of contradiction, Ashley?
>As you said, if you hadn't
>wanted it able to be compromised you would have hard coded it.
>
And we would have compromised it right along with the CD check.
Really, we aren't all that helpless. <giggle>
Frimlin
slink wrote in message <36026224...@news.netins.net>...
>On 17 Sep 1998 00:41:39 GMT, Frimlin <frimlin...@ihug.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
>
>> you are entitled to your own opinion
>
>Isn't this a bit of contradiction, Ashley?
>
You intentionally snipped out parts of the full sentance which said
"If you disagree with me, great - you are entitled to your own opinion -
but so am I."
So no contradiction at all.
>>As you said, if you hadn't
>>wanted it able to be compromised you would have hard coded it.
>>
>
>And we would have compromised it right along with the CD check.
>Really, we aren't all that helpless. <giggle>
Did I ever mention you were? Especially not you Sandra!
Carolyn Horn
>
> Mark bravely steps up to the podium and into the fray...
Well, that was a nifty bit of footwork. Taking snippets out of context
from various messages and mungeing them together with the comments you
wish to make can give the impression that you have agreement for almost
everything you wish to say.
> The fact there is good guys and bad guys is really a marketing thing -
Quite. Only it fools a lot of first-time users into not exploring the
possibilities inherent in the "bad guys." Especially if they aren't
connected to the Internet and don't find discussions like this.
> Yep - it was always inevitable that the workings of the powerups would
> be found - and so disabled. If we'd wanted everyone to have to go
> through the process for themselves we'd have made the powerups work in
> code ... and not be scripted.
This sounds a tiny bit like an excuse. Most people who do not have an
Internet connection will be on their own with this, so that they won't
be able to benefit from the abilities of the few wonderful people in the
Creatures Community who _can_ find the workings of such things. Ergo,
you wanted most non-internet people to have no choice. They buy the box
and watch norn after norn die as they search for the kit that can save
them.
> One good reason for breaking the kits up
> and only releasing them with time and experience is that people don't
> get inundated with extra info,
And a good reason for _not_ doing so, but instead for writing a decent
manual that explains in detail which organs the various chemicals would
help, is that people get dispirited when their norns die in this
apparently sad world.
> another is that the Advanced Science Kit
> allows you to inject ANY chemical - if a beginner had this ability
> from the beginning then they may be tempted to feed their creature by
> hand all the time ... thus robbing it of any chance it had to learn to
> eat on it's own.
Which is something that could be stressed in a well-written manual such
as I suggest above. Then people can experiment to thir heart's content
and not blame you if their creatures never learn. However, the problem
can be dealt with to an extent by making sure that the kit has a front
page with only the most-needed chemicals on it--and I don't mean the
"liquid food" that people are saying damages the norns.
> Although the world has been the main focus of change, the norns *have*
> had improvements. The inclusion of organs alone has meant that there's
> a more interesting range of behaviour from them, with more biological
> plausibility.
From the sound of the problems people are reporting, the "biological
plausibility", at least with the genome as released, seems remarkably
lacking. It will be interesting to see what the bnugfixed version is
like.
Carolyn
Carolyn Horn
>
> On 17 Sep 1998 00:41:39 GMT, Frimlin <frimlin...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
>
> > you are entitled to your own opinion
>
> Isn't this a bit of contradiction, Ashley?
<giggle>
> >As you said, if you hadn't
> >wanted it able to be compromised you would have hard coded it.
>
> And we would have compromised it right along with the CD check.
> Really, we aren't all that helpless. <giggle>
> --
> Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
Very true :-) I take it, if hardcoding is inviolable, that all the
crackers on the net aren't really managing to compromise other
software?
Carolyn
Mark Ashton
Carolyn rolled up her sleeves and began:
>Well, that was a nifty bit of footwork. Taking snippets out
>of context
>from various messages and mungeing them together with the comments you
>wish to make can give the impression that you have agreement
>for almost
>everything you wish to say.
Hmm, I detect some more hostility from you - I'm not too sure what
I/we've done to deserve this but I will try and answer the points you
raised again.
(BTW: Every time someone takes snippets of conversations *of course*
they're using them to make their comments seem valid - otherwise you
might as well quote the whole message and we both know how much that is
appreciated among NG readers <grin>)
>Quite. Only it fools a lot of first-time users into not exploring the
>possibilities inherent in the "bad guys." Especially if they aren't
>connected to the Internet and don't find discussions like this.
I think you are wrong - when C1 first came out people *were* worried
about even the slightest contact with the Grendel, but then once they'd
had a few encounters they realised that the Grendel was just as likeable
as the Norns - and so changed the way the viewed the world. This 'shift
of perceptions' is not limited to people who talk to each other on this
forum, it happens independently and all around the world. If it makes
you happy it could be explained away as a hidden depth to the game, we
wait with baited breath to hear people get over the persecution and
actually make up their own minds.
>This sounds a tiny bit like an excuse. Most people who do not have an
>Internet connection will be on their own with this, so that they won't
>be able to benefit from the abilities of the few wonderful
>people in the
>Creatures Community who _can_ find the workings of such things.
It may sound like an excuse but it's true - if we really didn't want
people to get around this mechanism then we could have made it so. And
yes, people who aren't on the internet will miss out, but they also miss
out on COBs, new norns, new applets, tools, development advice and the
wealth of the community we've got here. It would be nice if they could
share in all this but without the internet how can they?
> Ergo,
>you wanted most non-internet people to have no choice. They
>buy the box
>and watch norn after norn die as they search for the kit that can save
>them.
Isn't logic marvellous! It can enable you to arrive at a solution that's
completely wrong if you put the wrong assumptions in to begin with.
We didn't *want* non-internet people to have no choice, and that's why
we produced the Life Kit for C1 so that these people have access to just
a small portion of what they're missing - aside from paying for their
modem and connection what else can we do?
As for norns dying because they haven't got a certain kit - that's not
true. The kits are extras, very nice extras it has to be said but not
essential.
>as I suggest above. Then people can experiment to thir
>heart's content
>and not blame you if their creatures never learn. However,
>the problem
>can be dealt with to an extent by making sure that the kit has a front
>page with only the most-needed chemicals on it--and I don't mean the
>"liquid food" that people are saying damages the norns.
>
I agree that the manual could have been a lot more in-depth - but as
with so many games unfortunately it has to be the last thing that's done
(otherwise it's in danger of going out of date) and we were pushed for
time, and what suffered was the manual. It's still a lot better though
than the C1 manual - I don't know if you ever saw that?
When you say 'most needed' chemicals then I guess you have an idea of
what *you* want to see - the page already exists but it consists of what
*we* thought were the best chemicals to allow.
>From the sound of the problems people are reporting, the "biological
>plausibility", at least with the genome as released, seems remarkably
>lacking. It will be interesting to see what the bnugfixed version is
>like.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but the Creatures line was and still is
*the* worlds best commercial A-Life engine - combining genetics with
biochemistry with the theory of everything ;-)
If you still feel we're somehow cheating then please come to our website
and read some of the technical papers, I hope this can put your mind at
rest and allow you to work with us ... rather than slamming everything
we do.
And also Martha wrote:
>Also, I still maintain that there are gravitational anomalies in the
>terrain of C2. That's partly why I've been dredging up my
>long-forgotten H.P. Lovecraft shtick. Is this correct, or not? If
>not, what is the explanation for creatures hesitating as though there
>_were_ a forcefield, as Sonic has described so vividly?
<grin> There's some interesting stories about these 'anomalies' and it's
down to the fact that for a creature to walk it has to lift up it's leg
and put it down in from of itself (just like real life in fact - our
creatures don't magically glide along a surface the way most games do).
The place where all the problems have been arising has a steep slope, so
much so that the poor norns little legs really struggle to get up it. If
a creature with longer legs was to attempt to walk up it it should have
less problems.
During testing of Creatures we had a lot more places like this, and what
it meant was that a creature that was crawling (i.e. a baby) would get
stuck in certain areas - but then that's not unrealistic is it? Put a
baby in a steep sided bath and watch it try to get out! We removed most
of these 'traps' but the one on the island stayed, with all the flack
we're getting from it maybe it would have been better removed - but
isn't hindsight wonderful!
slink
wrote:
>
>slink wrote in message <36026224...@news.netins.net>...
>>On 17 Sep 1998 00:41:39 GMT, Frimlin <frimlin...@ihug.co.nz>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
>>
>>> you are entitled to your own opinion
>>
>>Isn't this a bit of contradiction, Ashley?
>>
>
>You intentionally snipped out parts of the full sentance which said
>"If you disagree with me, great - you are entitled to your own opinion -
>but so am I."
>So no contradiction at all.
>
You said in effect that we are entitled to our own opinion as long as
we don't disagree with your opinion, by "belittling CyberLife". The
meaning was not changed by the snipping. It seemed a markedly
one-sided granting of privilege on your part. :)
I *could* have pointed out your referring to your own work as "great"
in the section about 3rd-party genomes. <eg>
--
Sandra -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
slink
<mark....@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:
>- if we really didn't want
>people to get around this mechanism then we could have made it so.
I think you are seriously underestimating the user community here, and
I am not referring to myself. There are *much* better hackers under
Windows than I. Diablo was hacked despite repeated attempts by
Blizzard to counter the efforts of the users. Even Ultima Online had
problems with users dedicated to finding the holes. As long as both
the program and its data is on the user's computer there is no way you
can stop people from changing what they wish to. It's a far cry from
the security of console games on ROM.
Martha Brummett
>I think that's what the faithful (myself included) are objecting to:
>obvious marketing influences. Things that bear no resemblance
>whatsoever to the way we interact with Creatures.
>What if when you bought a dog, there was a rubik's cube attached to a
>muzzle that had to be undone before you could feed him or give him
>water? We would all be in tears, beacuse we'd be so upset that the dog
>was suffering because we couldn't figure out some puzzle. I think
>that's how it felt to some people.
This is the best analogy I've seen so far. I have had C2 for about
two weeks, have had it installed a little over a week, I think, but
have not yet settled down to any serious play--i.e., a serious
breeding program like in C1.
Martha Brummett
><grin> There's some interesting stories about these 'anomalies' and it's
>down to the fact that for a creature to walk it has to lift up it's leg
>and put it down in from of itself (just like real life in fact - our
>creatures don't magically glide along a surface the way most games do).
>The place where all the problems have been arising has a steep slope, so
>much so that the poor norns little legs really struggle to get up it. If
>a creature with longer legs was to attempt to walk up it it should have
>less problems.
Leg length should have no effect on ability to negotiate a slope if
there are adequate footholds, although a creature with shorter legs
would take longer to traverse it, and a baby might not be able to do
so at all. That's fine--in fact I like the variation in terrain, and
must admit it adds to realism.
> We removed most
>of these 'traps' but the one on the island stayed, with all the flack
>we're getting from it maybe it would have been better removed - but
>isn't hindsight wonderful!
Others still exist, with no apparent reason for them, which is why I
see them as something other than sloped terrain.
My major quarrel with the game as released would be with the mistakes
in the genome, particularly the one causing a Norn's uterus to
degrade, and the one giving such short lives to the Ettins.
Carolyn Horn
>
> Carolyn rolled up her sleeves and began:
>
> >Well, that was a nifty bit of footwork. Taking snippets out
> >of context from various messages and mungeing them together with the
> >comments you wish to make can give the impression that you have
> >agreement for almost everything you wish to say.
>
> Hmm, I detect some more hostility from you - I'm not too sure what
> I/we've done to deserve this
"More hostility"? A wee bitty sensitive, aren't we, to a few
observations?
I was pointing out that you had picked only certain sections of people's
messages, so that it wasn't quite the "fray" that you referred to in the
line which I quoted and will quote again:
"Mark bravely steps up to the podium and into the fray..."
> but I will try and answer the points you raised again.
Oh, goody!
> (BTW: Every time someone takes snippets of conversations *of course*
> they're using them to make their comments seem valid - otherwise you
> might as well quote the whole message and we both know how much that
> is appreciated among NG readers <grin>)
Indeed. For unneccessary items. However, it can be wise to quote the
more negative points and address the issues that these highlight. This
would show that you wish to clear up the confusion and concerns that
some people have--both with respect to the marketing of the product and
certain aspects of the game.
> >Quite. Only it fools a lot of first-time users into not exploring
> >the possibilities inherent in the "bad guys." Especially if they
> >aren't connected to the Internet and don't find discussions like
> >this.
>
> I think you are wrong - when C1 first came out people *were* worried
> about even the slightest contact with the Grendel, but then once
> they'd had a few encounters they realised that the Grendel was just as
> likeable as the Norns - and so changed the way the viewed the world.
> This 'shift of perceptions' is not limited to people who talk to each
> other on this forum, it happens independently and all around the
> world.
I'm sure it does. But why make a "bad guy" who is alone in his species,
infertile, and unable to interact pleasantly with those around him?
There's plenty of reasons why this is not a good idea; if the only plus
point is marketing strategy, then it's faintly disgusting. But then you
go on to say:
> If it makes you happy it could be explained away as a hidden
> depth to the game, we wait with baited breath to hear people get over
> the persecution and actually make up their own minds.
<giggle> "baited" breath, eh? Catching fish with your breath? Ewww...
But no, it doesn't "make me happy". A child (this _is_ targeted at
children too, no?) would most likely be either terrified of the
terrible, diseased grendel getting near his norns, or would keep trying
to kill the grendel. And, as it comes out of the box, there is no fix
to make the world such that grendels can be "friendly".
> >This sounds a tiny bit like an excuse. Most people who do not have
> >an Internet connection will be on their own with this, so that they
> >won't be able to benefit from the abilities of the few wonderful
> >people in the Creatures Community who _can_ find the workings of such
> >things.
>
> It may sound like an excuse but it's true - if we really didn't want
> people to get around this mechanism then we could have made it so.
I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I've heard that no full program has
yet been written wherein the protection can't be cracked--except perhaps
for "Ziplocked" downloads, and even that has been cracked twice.
> And yes, people who aren't on the internet will miss out, but they
> also miss out on COBs, new norns, new applets, tools, development
> advice and the wealth of the community we've got here. It would be
> nice if they could share in all this but without the internet how can
> they?
Precisely. And since they miss out on all the friendly advice and
helpful downloads, it seems unfair that they also miss out on the few
things that Cyberlife _can_ provide. Such as a full manual with the
game which would point out that the grendels are not actually all bad,
and a "hints and tips" or "spoilers" section--whatever you wish to call
it--that people can read if they wish.
They should also not miss out on the bugfixed genome etc that Toby says
you're making. I do hope that you intend to send a disk containing
these essentials to every person who registers by post since, as you
say, they miss out on all the rest of the support. It would be a small
expense as compared to the cost of the game, and the good public
relations that it would generate would be well worth it.
> > Ergo, you wanted most non-internet people to have no choice. They
> > buy the box and watch norn after norn die as they search for the kit
> > that can save them.
>
> Isn't logic marvellous!
Yes, _isn't_ it!
> It can enable you to arrive at a solution that's
> completely wrong if you put the wrong assumptions in to begin with.
Just like Statistics. Incredibly easy to misuse. However, in this case
the logic was based on facts. Non-internet people with no programming
skills won't be able to find their way around the power-ups. Cyberlife
put them there, therefore Cyberlife wanted them to stay there for those
people.
> We didn't *want* non-internet people to have no choice, and that's why
> we produced the Life Kit for C1 so that these people have access to
> just a small portion of what they're missing
Yes indeed.
> - aside from paying for their
> modem and connection what else can we do?
I've just told you. Someone else awhile back suggested that you could
put the freebies on magazine-cover discs, but that's only a compromise.
> As for norns dying because they haven't got a certain kit - that's not
> true. The kits are extras, very nice extras it has to be said but not
> essential.
There has been much discussion on the group on this subject. You may
see the Science Kit as not essential. Many people--especially those who
are used to having it in Creatures 1--disagree. _Maybe_ it won't be so
necessary with a better genome.
> I agree that the manual could have been a lot more in-depth - but as
> with so many games unfortunately it has to be the last thing that's
> done (otherwise it's in danger of going out of date) and we were
> pushed for time, and what suffered was the manual.
<shakes head> Manuals are very necessary, particularly for games as
complex as yours. A badly done manual can result in players who could
give up on your software out of sheer frustration. Rushing software out
of the door can be very unwise.
> It's still a lot better though
> than the C1 manual - I don't know if you ever saw that?
That _really_ isn't a very good excuse.
> When you say 'most needed' chemicals then I guess you have an idea of
> what *you* want to see - the page already exists but it consists of
> what *we* thought were the best chemicals to allow.
No. I didn't say "most wanted". I said "most needed". In order to
save a norn's life.
> >From the sound of the problems people are reporting, the "biological
> >plausibility", at least with the genome as released, seems remarkably
> >lacking. It will be interesting to see what the bnugfixed version is
> >like.
>
> I'm sorry you feel that way, but the Creatures line was and still is
> *the* worlds best commercial A-Life engine - combining genetics with
> biochemistry with the theory of everything ;-)
I know. Which is why it's a shame you didn't spend more time on that
aspect and, perhaps, a little less on the gloss.
> If you still feel we're somehow cheating then please come to our
> website and read some of the technical papers,
I have done, quite some time ago, when it seemed that that was truly the
direction you wished to take.
> I hope this can put your mind at rest and allow you to work with us...
> rather than slamming everything we do.
I'm sorry that you see my discussions as "slamming everything" that you
do. The concerns that I raise are, I think, valid to more people than
simply myself.
[snip your response to Martha]
Carolyn
Catalina 'Lady Cat'
uterus degrade, when just keeping them alive was hard enough, we had to worry
about that also. ::sigh::
I'm VERY grateful for the work Lis and Slink have done to fix this problem.
:)
Martha Brummett wrote:
>
> My major quarrel with the game as released would be with the mistakes
> in the genome, particularly the one causing a Norn's uterus to
> degrade, and the one giving such short lives to the Ettins.
--
Lady Cat, of the Peter Pan Clan. :)
Gooseberry Garden C2 http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709
My Paintings http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709/vicki.htm
pig...@idir.net
Norn...@aol.com
pookl...@geocities.com
St...@horn.demon.co.uk wrote:
> In article: <A41EFAA0620AD111B2B700805F0D182F5F609E@cyberserver> Mark
> Ashton <mark....@cyberlife.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > Carolyn rolled up her sleeves and began:
> >
Okay -- no one is knocking Creatures or Cyberlife -- we all love it, that's
why we're here. But:
> > As for norns dying because they haven't got a certain kit - that's not
> > true. The kits are extras, very nice extras it has to be said but not
> > essential.
>
> There has been much discussion on the group on this subject. You may
> see the Science Kit as not essential. Many people--especially those who
> are used to having it in Creatures 1--disagree. _Maybe_ it won't be so
> necessary with a better genome.
<snip>
> > When you say 'most needed' chemicals then I guess you have an idea of
> > what *you* want to see - the page already exists but it consists of
> > what *we* thought were the best chemicals to allow.
>
> No. I didn't say "most wanted". I said "most needed". In order to
> save a norn's life.
>
<snip>
This thing here: as often as most people's C2 norns jump into the ocean and
drown, and as much as you need the defib and all that to bring them back, I
really can't see how you think the Science applet is an optional kit.
If I didn't have the online community, I wouldn't have been able to get the
power up cob (I can't make my own yet -- and that's not something you provide
in-box directions to anyways) Can't get the cob and you are out of luck with
the norns until you get one to push the right power up to get the science
kit. So your norns will drown senselessly while you stand by helpless.
My cousins who are all below 12 yrs old are not allowed on the internet
(yes, my uncle is a stone age caveman, I know) but he might let them have a
game like Creatures (when hell freezes over he will let them have PC games,
but that's OT -- I'm just using this as an example) My cousins are the kids
who would have to play the game as it is out of the box -- and yes, they
might tire of it before they get to some of the more advanced functions, or
if their norns won't eat, jump into the ocean and all die. If they tire of
C2, when C3 comes out -- they won't have an interest in it. Think of it as
long-term marketing investment -- the people who get the most out of it, put
the most back in, as in: they buy the next release, and they convince other
people to play, to buy.
About the book, Toby's C1 book was very very basic, and I expect the C2 book
to be basic as well. It's something that would have been nice to find in the
box, but I also think that if we found it in the box, you would have charged
more like $60 for the box instead of $40. I am much more inclined to buy the
less expensive games -- just me. I might have hesitated at at $60 price tag
(not for long, but long enough) One doesn't want a customer to hesitate
while in a buying mood. So I think it was a good strategy to break it up
into a $40 chunk and a $20 chunk. And yes, Im sure I'm going to buy it, too.
BUT A calendar creator program I got came with thicker docs than Creatures 1
and 2 put together! For such an amazingly complex program, I agree there
should have been more to the manual that came with the original purchase.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
<pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>I also think that adversarial advertising approach is misleading. The
>other game I bought last year was "Twinsen's Odyssey". I wasn't
>standing in line for a copy of "Resident Evil II". Those other grendel
>sprites would have to be pretty darn gross to make that crowd happy.
<off-topic> I love the Little Big Adventure games! I
often hope that Adeline will come up with an LBA3
eventually. The LBA games and Creatures have got
to be my all-time favourite games. </off-topic>
That aside, I agree with you here on the power-ups
/ adverserial question. I don't mind if Mindscape
goes bananas on merchandise personally. That won't
really affect the folks who aren't keen. I mean, if people
don't like it, they won't buy the stuff, and Mindscape will
get the idea.
I DO mind the idea of having to spend valuable time
when I could be saving the lives of my norns trying to
complete a platform-game type "quest" for the power-
ups. I mean, as "marketing to newer players" goes, that
is a pretty intrusive strategy to impose on the older
players as well. I personally think it misses the point of
the game for quite a lot of people, and like with the
adverserial Grendel stuff, won't really attract the mythical
"mainstream" gamers much either.
Just as a case in point, my husband once tried to interest
our nephew in the game by showing him my copy of
Creatures. He opened it up, and Stan and Olie (I'm sure
some of you remember them; what did happen to that
experiment, anyway?) were wandering around the
garden. The first thing our nephew wanted to know was,
"which one are you"? He thought it was some kind of
combat arcade game. (Norn Fighter III? ;^)). My husband
tried to show him how to talk to the norns, and to get them
to eat food, etc, but he got bored once he realised that it
wasn't Mortal Kombat 2. Fact is that gamers who are happy
in a particular genre (action, platforms, etc) and who come
to Creatures expecting to find a good action/platform game,
will end up being disappointed because THAT'S NOT
WHAT THE GAME IS ESSENTIALLY ABOUT. A small
minority might like the change, but they'd have to get around
their initial disappointment over the lack of real action/platform
senarios. Basically, I think in that case the marketing is more
misleading than helpful, to both old and new gamers alike.
>One of the best things about being part of this community is that
>Cyberlife is part of this community too, so you do know us, deep in our
>little norn-loving hearts. It is very cool that the people responsible
>for Creatures make posts here. This is really unique NG atmosphere.
I agree with that. I think it's great that Cyberlife does
read this NG and give us some input here. I think
it benefits them as well, because they get a good
reputation on the WWW in return. It's a smart move,
and a thoughtful courtesy on their part. :^)
Mae Tang
(replace "nospam" with "nu-it" for a valid e-mail address)
Mark Ashton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mo...@diac.com (Martha Brummett) [mailto:mo...@diac.com]
>Posted At: 17 September 1998 16:48
>Posted To: creatures
>Conversation: C2 Sybex Book Bad for Grens
>Subject: Re: The Point of Creatures
>
>
>PookLaRoux <pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>>I think that's what the faithful (myself included) are objecting to:
>>obvious marketing influences. Things that bear no resemblance
>>whatsoever to the way we interact with Creatures.
>
>>What if when you bought a dog, there was a rubik's cube attached to a
>>muzzle that had to be undone before you could feed him or give him
>>water? We would all be in tears, beacuse we'd be so upset
>that the dog
>>was suffering because we couldn't figure out some puzzle. I think
>>that's how it felt to some people.
>
>This is the best analogy I've seen so far. I have had C2 for about
>two weeks, have had it installed a little over a week, I think, but
>have not yet settled down to any serious play--i.e., a serious
>breeding program like in C1.
>
>
>Martha Brummett
I was going to respond to this at the same time as I replied to the
other points yourself, PookLaRoux and Carolyn made - but decided not to
as I didn't think it was a point other people would agree with ... I
guess I was wrong :-)
Anyway, the more correct analogy would be to have bought a dog that had
a device on it, and this device meant (a) you couldn't magic up any
chemical that ever existed and put it in it's bloodstream (b) you
couldn't give it a complete brainscan and influence at a neurone level
how and what it learnt (c) you couldn't have a look at it's complete
genome and know everything that made it tick.
*This* is a more accurate representation of both life and how the
powerup mechanism works - to say you can't feed it and it will die until
you've found powerups is wrong. The Science kit injection page is useful
- and that's why it's the easiest kit to find! It's only a small walk to
get to it!
But I do ultimately agree that the more hardcore among you (who had C1)
find this introduction of a new 'time released' mechanism annoying -
people who didn't know otherwise though find it a challenge and get
rewarded with lots of nice new features. I guess it's really hard to be
able to please both kinds of people ... hopefully we found the balance.
And I hope you get down to some serious breeding, if you'll excuse the
wording ;-)
Carolyn Horn
>
> >PookLaRoux <pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I think that's what the faithful (myself included) are objecting to:
> >>obvious marketing influences. Things that bear no resemblance
> >>whatsoever to the way we interact with Creatures.
> >
> >>What if when you bought a dog, there was a rubik's cube attached to
> >>a muzzle that had to be undone before you could feed him or give him
> >>water? We would all be in tears, beacuse we'd be so upset
> >>that the dog was suffering because we couldn't figure out some
> >>puzzle. I think that's how it felt to some people.
> >
> >This is the best analogy I've seen so far. I have had C2 for about
> >two weeks, have had it installed a little over a week, I think, but
> >have not yet settled down to any serious play--i.e., a serious
> >breeding program like in C1.
> >
> >
> >Martha Brummett
>
> I was going to respond to this at the same time as I replied to the
> other points yourself, PookLaRoux and Carolyn made - but decided not
> to as I didn't think it was a point other people would agree with ...
So you don't take notice of a point if you feel that only one person
cares about it? Remember even just that one person is a customer or a
potential customer.
> I guess I was wrong :-)
> Anyway, the more correct analogy would be to have bought a dog that
> had a device on it, and this device meant (a) you couldn't magic up
> any chemical that ever existed and put it in it's bloodstream (b) you
> couldn't give it a complete brainscan and influence at a neurone level
> how and what it learnt (c) you couldn't have a look at it's complete
> genome and know everything that made it tick.
No, PookLaRoux's comment is a good analogy and not one to be dismissed
like that. Taking _your_ analogy as a model, you would have to add that
it _would_ be possible to add such a device, and you are even told so,
but that it is withheld until you've got your dog to perform the
necessary tricks. If it dies first, never mind, you can get another
one.
> *This* is a more accurate representation of both life and how the
> powerup mechanism works - to say you can't feed it and it will die
> until you've found powerups is wrong. The Science kit injection page
> - and that's why it's the easiest kit to find! It's only a small walk
> is useful to get to it!
And for Grendel-lovers--as well as those who like what they see of the
Ettins-- the powerup is also close? The user doesn't have to see
several sad, lonely, infertile Ettins die before they can select and
help them?
> But I do ultimately agree that the more hardcore among you (who had
> C1) find this introduction of a new 'time released' mechanism annoying
> - people who didn't know otherwise though find it a challenge and get
> rewarded with lots of nice new features.
You have, I take it, heard this from lots of satisfied first-time users
already. Good.
> I guess it's really hard to
> be able to please both kinds of people ... hopefully we found the
> balance. And I hope you get down to some serious breeding, if you'll
> excuse the wording ;-)
>
> Mark
Carolyn
Magic T. Dragon
<crunch>
> My major quarrel with the game as released would be with the mistakes
> in the genome, particularly the one causing a Norn's uterus to
> degrade, and the one giving such short lives to the Ettins.
>
<munch>
Having the uterus degrade is a mistake? Hmmm...my mom had fibroid tumors, which
caused gradual degredation until she had an emergancy hysterectomy becuase her
uterus was so huge that she couldn't urinate. So...maybe it isn't a mistake?
<shrug>
--
Posted by the one, the only, Magic the dragon! (74% dragon!)
**~~**~~**
Visit Beanieville!
http://www.geocities.com/~beanievilleusa/
**~~**~~**
DC.D f s++ h++ CWwIrides~W:K^Irides a- $ m d++ WL++* L- Ball e+++ g i+! U-
Lion King Codes v1.51
TLK+++ A+ B D- C L++ Mta++ Psr W++ S++ Tsncaimprtzhb++++
RLHM a- cn++ e-- h++ iw++ lmx pc++ sf#
C-ADD-BLOCK: 1.2.7.1
AST d s-:+ a--- x! t: C rC?/c?/B?/N?/E1?,2?,3?,4?,5+,6?,7?,8?,9++/O?/o? S---
gQ+/W1?,2? W- P--- Gd*:/S--:,SC2k/p-:+/o*:
Catalina 'Lady Cat'
Something similar happened to my mom. Its still not a common occurrence, but in
the original C2 norns it seemed to be happening to all of them, just as they were
reaching the age to reproduce. It seems that it was actually a miss wiring on
Cyberlifes part, and was not suppose to be that way. Anyway, Slink and Lis fixed
the problem with their new norns!! :)
Magic T. Dragon wrote:
>
> Having the uterus degrade is a mistake? Hmmm...my mom had fibroid tumors, which
> caused gradual degredation until she had an emergancy hysterectomy becuase her
> uterus was so huge that she couldn't urinate. So...maybe it isn't a mistake?
> <shrug>
> --
--
Lady Cat, of the Peter Pan Clan. :)
Gooseberry Garden C2 http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709
My Paintings http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/8709/vicki.htm
pig...@idir.net
----------------
Also visit the sites of the Queen and Princess of gen files!!! :)
Slink -> http://www.netins.net/showcase/slink/
Lis -> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/morris_family/hippy.htm
xOtix
~ jann
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martha Brummett wrote in message
<35ffcc92....@news.diac.com>...
>"Lis Morris" <lis_m...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>> I think the real step up in c2 is the
>>world itself, not the norns.. I love the ecosystem.. I tend to
set the obs
>>kit of record any nasty occurences, and then sit and watch the
flowers grow,
>>or plant pear trees...
>
>I like the rabbit and the bats. I had looked forward to the
lemmings,
>but perhaps their cycle would have been too difficult to
emulate.
xOtix
here: the fact that animals, especially dogs have the ability to
bond with us. The main problem I have with Creatures is that I
bond with them (sorry, it's innate) ;) but they do not bond
with me. Therefore, we need those kits to help us keep our
cyberCreatures alive, since we have no two-way sensing mechanism
that mutual bonding gives us. For me, PookLaRoux's analogy
stands.
Don't get me wrong, though. I truly love Creatures, both 1 and
2. And like others have said, it is unique and exciting that
the creators of our game are a part of the Creatures Community.
What I find most exciting is that we are building these games
together. that somehow, in our own ways even the least of us is
contributing.
One word about this "marketing" business. This is newspeak. We
used to call it false advertising, or to be even more blunt:
lying. Let's call a shovel a shovel, shall we? One of the
disadvantages of this false advertising, is that it attracts
people to the game who have unrealistic expectations about, and
attitudes towards the game. These people are going to be
dumping their frustrations, not only on Cyberlife, but on this
newsgroup as well. If I am only seeing this in black and white,
I apologise. (I've been told often enough that I tend to do
this).
I find C2 much more challenging, more frustrating. Yet in a way
more enjoyable than C1 (though that's where I go when I get too
frustrated with C2!!). They really are two very different games.
Also I missed the original post for this thread, so I hope I
haven't been completely out of line.
<~> jann <~>
(who is STILL not getting half the agc posts! but my server is
working on it, so they say!) >:(
...a victim of bad propagation.(according to Jason Westman) =Ş
"I may be slow, but that's 'cause I'm so deep!" =|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
New email addy:
quickxotixatbconnex.net
(remove the 'quick' and change 'at' to @)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jannart Digital Design & Animation
www.jannart.on.ca (not so NEW anymore)
(not a Creatures site --but I'm working on one)
-----------------
______________________________
Mark Ashton wrote in message ...
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mo...@diac.com (Martha Brummett) [mailto:mo...@diac.com]
>>Posted At: 17 September 1998 16:48
>>Posted To: creatures
>>Conversation: C2 Sybex Book Bad for Grens
>>Subject: Re: The Point of Creatures
>>
>>
... I
>guess I was wrong :-)
>Anyway, the more correct analogy would be to have bought a dog
that had
>a device on it, and this device meant (a) you couldn't magic up
any
>chemical that ever existed and put it in it's bloodstream (b)
you
>couldn't give it a complete brainscan and influence at a
neurone level
>how and what it learnt (c) you couldn't have a look at it's
complete
>genome and know everything that made it tick.
>*This* is a more accurate representation of both life and how
the
>powerup mechanism works - to say you can't feed it and it will
die until
>you've found powerups is wrong. The Science kit injection page
is useful
>- and that's why it's the easiest kit to find! It's only a
small walk to
>get to it!
>
>But I do ultimately agree that the more hardcore among you (who
had C1)
>find this introduction of a new 'time released' mechanism
annoying -
>people who didn't know otherwise though find it a challenge and
get
>rewarded with lots of nice new features. I guess it's really
hard to be
>able to please both kinds of people ... hopefully we found the
balance.
>And I hope you get down to some serious breeding, if you'll
excuse the
>wording ;-)
>
>
>Mark
>
>
Frimlin
slink wrote in message <3602fcce...@news.netins.net>...
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:14:59 +1200, "Frimlin" <al...@frimlin.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>slink wrote in message <36026224...@news.netins.net>...
>>>On 17 Sep 1998 00:41:39 GMT, Frimlin <frimlin...@ihug.co.nz>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
>>>
>>>> you are entitled to your own opinion
>>>
>>>Isn't this a bit of contradiction, Ashley?
>>>
>>
>>You intentionally snipped out parts of the full sentance which said
>>"If you disagree with me, great - you are entitled to your own opinion -
>>but so am I."
>>So no contradiction at all.
>>
>
>You said in effect that we are entitled to our own opinion as long as
>we don't disagree with your opinion, by "belittling CyberLife". The
>meaning was not changed by the snipping. It seemed a markedly
>one-sided granting of privilege on your part. :)
I don't particularly care what you think I was meaning. But I never
said (or indeed thought) what you believe I did. You have this wonderful
habit of
reading one thing and thinking another. It won't work in this case
as I will post the paragraph again.. and you will notice I have NEVER
said people shouldn't disagree with my opinion! I LOVE disagreement
as long as it doesn't move over to personal attacks.. wish I could
say the same about some of the personal communication I shared
with you.
"Well from what I have seen that is true. People seem eager to minimise
the great things Cyberlife have put into Creatures 2. Now before anyone
says I am trying to suck up to Cyberlife - I frankly don't care. But I
am getting a bit tired of the "Cyberlife didn't do that" "cyberlife made
this mistake" ..etc.. Okay, so the genetics need work but already we've
seen great third party genomes and promise of some new good cyberlife ones.
I just want people to put things into perspective and stop belittling
the wonderful ideas Cyberlife's staff incorporated into C2.
If you disagree with me, great - you are entitled to your own opinion -
but so am I."
Notice the last sentance, read the words not what you think you want
to hear. I have clearly said Sandra that if someone disagrees with me
that is GREAT as we all entitled to air our views and if you don't like
me airing mine then I couldn't give a damn!
>I *could* have pointed out your referring to your own work as "great"
>in the section about 3rd-party genomes. <eg>
I have never said third party development was a bad thing.. how about
reading words and not what you think is between them.
I think that some of my C1 work was pretty neat.. obviously not as good
as someone who has 24 7 at her disposal to do whatever she wants.
You always seem to want to put words and actions and put my name on
them - luckily for me I am not about to quietly exit just because Slink
has a personal vendetta against me.
slink
<cvi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Martha Brummett wrote:
><crunch>
>> My major quarrel with the game as released would be with the mistakes
>> in the genome, particularly the one causing a Norn's uterus to
>> degrade, and the one giving such short lives to the Ettins.
>>
>> Martha Brummett
><munch>
>
>Having the uterus degrade is a mistake? Hmmm...my mom had fibroid tumors, which
>caused gradual degredation until she had an emergancy hysterectomy becuase her
>uterus was so huge that she couldn't urinate. So...maybe it isn't a mistake?
><shrug>
According the the gno file that comes with the norn genome that's a
heart disease gene. It seems to have been left at the end of the file
and never been properly placed. Then end of the file is inside the
uterus. In mine I moved the gene to the heart and made it sensitive
to very high levels of cholesterol, which is what *I* had intended
some months ago when I insisted on making cholesterol a vital part of
the system.
pookl...@geocities.com
Mark Ashton <mark....@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> But I do ultimately agree that the more hardcore among you (who had C1)
> find this introduction of a new 'time released' mechanism annoying -
Yah, that was my main gripe. If there's one thing I really really like about
all of you at Cyberlife who come to this NG, it's that you're willing to face
our critiques and give us your perspectives. We may not always agree, but
that still makes a whole huge amount of difference in how I feel about
Cyberlife. I'll get off the soapbox now. <g>
> And I hope you get down to some serious breeding, if you'll excuse the
> wording ;-)
No -- not yet. C2 is so much more involved than C1, I exported a lot of my
norns and decided to work with the flora and fauna for a while to get a
better idea of how the environment works. There was a certain charm about
the always sunny, small enough to circumnavigate in 5 mouseclicks Old Albia,
but the New Albia is a wonder of places and things. I get a kick out of the
fish! I appreciate the work Slink and Lis have done with the genomes, and I
have some beautiful happy norn babies from their hard work, but I am also
curious about what improvements Cyberlife has decided to put through with the
genome. I'm probably going to hold off serious breeding and training until I
see your improvements, and get any add ons/cobs you put out on thr 22nd.
I am still also playing C1, and I just realized (duh!) that I might be able
to use an update you have posted on your dl page -- I'd thought I had the
latest version, but I realized I didn't. So I probably will play with that
some more too, and see what improvements you put in there..
pookl...@geocities.com
> <off-topic> I love the Little Big Adventure games! I
> often hope that Adeline will come up with an LBA3
> eventually. The LBA games and Creatures have got
> to be my all-time favourite games. </off-topic>
OT -- me too! I didn't even know about LBA 1, but I got a demo for
Twinsen's, and I kept playing it over and over, and finally my devoted spouse
said "Please buy the game! I'm sure it has more music on it -- and if I hear
that particular little riff one more time -- I am going to go crazy!" I'd
still like to play LBA1.
> Just as a case in point, my husband once tried to interest
> our nephew in the game by showing him my copy of
> Creatures. He opened it up, and Stan and Olie (I'm sure
> some of you remember them; what did happen to that
> experiment, anyway?) were wandering around the
> garden. The first thing our nephew wanted to know was,
> "which one are you"? He thought it was some kind of
> combat arcade game. (Norn Fighter III? ;^))
<G>
>. My husband
> tried to show him how to talk to the norns, and to get them
> to eat food, etc, but he got bored once he realised that it
> wasn't Mortal Kombat 2. Fact is that gamers who are happy
> in a particular genre (action, platforms, etc) and who come
> to Creatures expecting to find a good action/platform game,
> will end up being disappointed because THAT'S NOT
> WHAT THE GAME IS ESSENTIALLY ABOUT.
<snip>
> Basically, I think in that case the marketing is more
> misleading than helpful, to both old and new gamers alike.
I completely agree -- your example is right on.
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
>if their norns won't eat, jump into the ocean and all die. If they tire of
>C2, when C3 comes out -- they won't have an interest in it. Think of it as
>long-term marketing investment -- the people who get the most out of it, put
>the most back in, as in: they buy the next release, and they convince other
>people to play, to buy.
<claps>
Yeah! What you said! ;^)
>About the book, Toby's C1 book was very very basic, and I expect the C2 book
>to be basic as well. It's something that would have been nice to find in the
>box, but I also think that if we found it in the box, you would have charged
>more like $60 for the box instead of $40.
Erm. _Dungeon Keeper_ is a very complex game, and
it originally retailed here for the same price as C2 is now
going for (40 pounds). DK, though, comes with a 78 page
manual (twice the length of the C2 manual), and had all
the info you could possibly need to play a very complex
game. Another 34 pages on the C2 manual could have
been devoted to listing all the plants, animals, new toys,
gadgets, etc, as well as to explaining some of the new
organs, chemicals, etc.
Or then again, we could pay $20 for the book.
<shrugs>
I'm going to wait for C2 FAQs to get written on this
group, for this group.
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
<cvi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Having the uterus degrade is a mistake? Hmmm...my mom had fibroid tumors, which
>caused gradual degredation until she had an emergancy hysterectomy becuase her
>uterus was so huge that she couldn't urinate. So...maybe it isn't a mistake?
Sorry to hear about your mom.
The difference as I see it, as that with norns it's not
a tumor or an abberant growth with affects the uterus.
It's adipose tissue, or fat. Most pregnant women put
on weight for very good reasons - their bodies have
to support both them, and the growing baby, which
takes lots of energy; birth itself can be very stressful
for the body, etc. The adipose tissue could give them
energy reserves to fall back on. I'm not saying your
norns should be able to get unnaturally fat without
suffering any consequences, but it probably doesn't
make much biological sense to disable the females
for putting on extra fat reserves, at the very time when
they need those reserves the most.
mae...@nospam.demon.co.uk
<mark....@cyberlife.co.uk> wrote:
>>PookLaRoux <pookl...@geocities.com> wrote:
>>>What if when you bought a dog, there was a rubik's cube attached to a
>>>muzzle that had to be undone before you could feed him or give him
>>>water? We would all be in tears, beacuse we'd be so upset
>>>that the dog was suffering because we couldn't figure out some puzzle.
>>>I think that's how it felt to some people.
>
>the more correct analogy would be to have bought a dog that had
>a device on it, and this device meant (a) you couldn't magic up any
>chemical that ever existed and put it in it's bloodstream (b) you
>couldn't give it a complete brainscan and influence at a neurone level
>how and what it learnt (c) you couldn't have a look at it's complete
>genome and know everything that made it tick.
>
>*This* is a more accurate representation of both life and how the
>powerup mechanism works - to say you can't feed it and it will die until
>you've found powerups is wrong.
<Gets out C2 manual>
Ahem. "The Science Kit is an advance applet for monitoring
a Norn. It has pages to view the levels of chemicals in the
bloodstream and use a hypodemic needle to save an ill
Norn's life. If you manage to enable the additional advanced
features of the Science Kit then you can inject any quantity
of any chemical and view the genetic makeup of a Norn. This
can be useful for advanced medical care." - p. 20.
So, there is a device which could "save an ill Norn's life". But
you can't get to it because you can't get that perhaps ill norn to
move as far as the powerup. IMO the device sounds to me
like a vet's kit. You pet dog may be OK for a lot of the time, but
when it's ill is when it's most incapable of taking care of itself.
That's when it needs you, the "vet" with the "kit" to save it. At
that point of time, the kit is as vital to your norns as food or
water, if not more so (eg: your norn needs to be defibulated).
I can see why people would feel frustrated, especially if they
have bonded with their norns, as they would a pet dog.
Hkac
Y'all wrote:
Dajavu,
This is great! (Sorry, not meant the way it probably sounds), but I thought I
was the only one with a communications problem. It's really nice to know that
I'm not alone. You had to be there to understand, but you couldn't be 'cause
it was all emailed. Guess everyone has their tiffs from time to time. I
thought it was just because I was new to the group and therefore
had no right to stumble across something unknown. Ever notice how I stick to
the small talk? This is a great place for getting help, tips,hints...there's a
lot of really great talent here. It's wonderful that the great minds of the
group share so much with the rest of us, but some people are just way to full
of themselves. I would rather keep the peace than drag out the shotgun, (and I
ain't kissing no feet). So I most often try not to say much.
*just this one time though*....
- - - -
HC
Frimlin
Hkac wrote in message <19980919041531...@ng110.aol.com>...
>Dajavu,
>This is great! (Sorry, not meant the way it probably sounds), but I
thought I
>was the only one with a communications problem. It's really nice to know
that
>I'm not alone. You had to be there to understand, but you couldn't be
'cause
>it was all emailed. Guess everyone has their tiffs from time to time. I
>thought it was just because I was new to the group and therefore
>had no right to stumble across something unknown. Ever notice how I stick
to
>the small talk? This is a great place for getting help,
tips,hints...there's a
>lot of really great talent here. It's wonderful that the great minds of the
>group share so much with the rest of us, but some people are just way to
full
>of themselves. I would rather keep the peace than drag out the shotgun,
(and I
>ain't kissing no feet). So I most often try not to say much.
>*just this one time though*....
Feel free to say all you wish to.. *some* people in this newsgroup like free
speech
and I am most certainly one of them.
Eater-of-small-furry-animals
>Feel free to say all you wish to.. *some* people in this newsgroup like free
>speech
>and I am most certainly one of them.
>
>Frimlin
>ash...@ihug.co.nz
>http://www.frimlin.co.nz/
>
too young to hear this kind of talk. they can learn their bad habits
in public school, just like i did.
Frimlin
Eater-of-small-furry-animals wrote in message
>i'd like too, but i curb what i say out of respect for people that are
>too young to hear this kind of talk.
Well that's why you should keep things above the belt :)
>they can learn their bad habits
>in public school, just like i did.
LOL!! I remember reading the F word on the adventure playground
at my primary school & wondering what it meant.. so I asked my mum :) hehe
Frimlin
ash...@ihug.co.nz
http://www.frimlin.co.nz/