Swashbuckler - a good career move? (mild spoilers herein)
Phil
say) BG2, and I'm coming to the conclusion that as a single classed
character, they aren't really all I was hoping for.
The raison d'etre of the swashbuckler is combat, all their bonuses are
combat linked. That's great, they can allot *** in dual wield, and go
to ** in any weapon a thief can use. However, we are still using the
thief proficiency chart, so I only pick up a new proficiency every
four levels. So if I want to dual wield effectively (and for me,
efectively means maxing out dual wield, otherwise the penalties are
just horrendous), then that's ***, or 3 of my initial 4 proficiency
points at character creation. Now I can reach level 23, so I will
pick up another 3 proficency points (levels 12, 16, 20). All this
means I can get ** in any two weapons as well as maxing out dual
wield, so for argument's sake let's choose daggers and short swords
(for role playing reasons, I abhor seeing characters dual wield long
swords or katanas - it couldn't happen in real life, so I don't like
it in my games). So by level 23, I'll have +1 to hit and +2 to damage
in short swords and daggers, and suffer a penalty of -2 to hit using
my off-hand.
Now we move on to THAC0. I was led to believe that a swashbuckler
uses the fighter THAC0 for weapons he is proficient in. Well, my
level 12 character has THAC0's of 10 and 12 with a couple of +2 short
swords, ** in short sword and *** in dual wield. Now that is not the
fighter THAC0, so something here has been nerfed (of course, my poor
eyesight may mean I just misread the kit description 8-)). So as a
front line fighter, bearing in mind she misses out on a lot of potions
of strength alteration and heroism, the swashbuckler is not a potent
character. Of course, by level 23 you could be dual wielding
Celestial Fury and the short sword of backstabbing (both +3), which
could alter the odds. However, don't ever expect them to take down
the real rock hard enemies, since they just suffer too much with their
to hit rolls.
OK, let's look at AC. Here at last is an area where the swashbuckler
excels. Their natural AC get a +1 bonus at creation, and another +1
every five levels. Add this to the +4 from my dexterity bonus, and my
natural AC is 3 at level 12. Add on the shadow armour and that goes
to -3, making her a relatively tough target (as far as thieves go).
So, not good at hitting folks, but fairly useful at staying out of the
way of wayward sword thrusts. Which makes them great for acting as
scout.
Yes, thieving skills. There are no penalties to the swashbuckler's
skill allowances, so it is possible to max out a couple of skills from
the off, and quickly buff up another couple of skills. Naturally, my
preference is for stealth and trap detection, although I would suggest
that the swashbuckler is the best class for the art of pickpocketing,
as if an enemy turns red then you can buy a couple of seconds fending
them off before the heavy fire support arrives to back him up.
So, to summarise, we're looking at a guy who is every bit as good as a
regular thief, and to boot gets a few bonuses in combat. The
disadvantage? No backstab multiplier (note that the act of
backstabbing still works, allowing you to get the first shot in during
a fight) means the most powerful single move from BG1 isn't available
here. So the question to ask has to be, does the benefit of the extra
combat skills compensate for the loss of backstab?
The short answer is yes, if looked at from the point of view of a
plain comparison. In practice, I must admit that the AC bonuses are
the only real benefit I can find. Thanks to poor party selection and
my usual cleric fetish, I'm running with Minsc as the only front line
fighter and the swashbuckler acting as backup, with help from Anomen.
As a front line sword twiddler, forget the swashbuckler - they're not
tough enough to duke it out with the big enemies. A few kobolds, the
odd renegade or bandit, and that's their limit. Rampaging werewolves
are not a good test of the swashbuckler's ability.
So, if they're tougher than the average thief, but not sufficiently
powerful to take the fight to the enemy, where does the swashbukler
fit in? I'd recommend a similar style to that mentioned in previous
posts on playing the blade kit - as a back-up fighter at best, who
should be looking to ideally stay away from too much combat. At other
times, they are every bit as effective as a normal thief in terms of
abilities, and much better suited to staying alive if they exit
stealth mode by accident and find themselves surrounded by enemies.
Finally, a list of alternatives. The monk can take over stealth
duties if you want, as can a ranger (the stalker kit springs to mind).
For a better fighter, stalkers would get the vote, with monks
obviously coming into their own later in the game. As an exponent of
disarming traps and opening locks, a cleric can cast find traps (but
not disarm them) and mages can cast knock. So, the role of the
swashbuckler (and to a certain extent, the entire thief class) is
moving towards exclusive use of the thieving skill button, and more
and more away from any romanticised notion of leaping out of the
shadows to engage in combat with the enemy (bearing in mind also the
apparent limitations being placed on backstab multipliers, as
mentioned in another thread by monk). Of course, that's affecting the
way I play the swashbuckler myself, but for anyone considering it, a
few words of advice;
* Ditch the dual wield idea. Stick with single weapon usage and put
your points into a decent melee weapon and into bows. A good bow is
extremely useful for a thief, allowing them to influence combat from a
distance. Go with katanas (unless you have someone else to use
Celestial Fury) or long swords for effectiveness, or short swords for
a more authentic feel to the character.
* Think of them as defensive rather than offensive. The AC bonuses
make them quite tough, relaively speaking, so put them in front of
your mages in the middle ranks, acting as a human shield. It also
gives you freedom to engage groups of weaker enemies in the knowledge
that they won't hurt you too much.
* The swashbuckler is a thief first and foremost. Their thief
abilities are as good as anyone, so use them in the thief role. Treat
combat as an incidental bonus, and concentrate on the substantive
thieving tasks of finding traps, opening locks and hiding in shadows
to scout the way ahead.
* Experiment with dual classing. I haven't done this, and I'm
commenting on the single classed swashbuckler as a character.
However, a swashbuckler dualled to mage or cleric would make for a
very interesting combination, with access to knock or find traps
allowing you to spend your thieving points elsewhere. A
swashbuckler/mage would also not miss the loss of backstabbing, since
their game is all about sneakiness, casting web and then dropping
cloudkill on people ;-).
* Finally, don't expect great things from your stronghold. The
Thieve's Guild is coma-inducing in terms of related quests, and the
risk balancing element of the guild means you either have to survive
on a pittence dribbling in, or go for big bucks and invariably lose a
lot of thieves to the authorities. Oh, and you're artificially tied
to your guild to keep paying off your superiors, so I don't really
have a great love for this particular stronghold.
--
Phil
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Fomar
wanted to reply with some things I have found as well.
Phil <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8t4g0h$70q$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>>snipped about weapon profs. and Celestial Fury<<<<
>
I was thinking the THACO would be a bit better than a straight thief as
well. Also for more character flavor I went with Short Swords and was
thinking of following that with Katana or daggers. However I read this
morning that while a Swashbuckler can become proficient with more weapons
than a normal Thief he can't specialize in any weapon but those that are
specific to the Thief class. According to the post I read Katanas do _not_
fall into that catagory. So that coupled with the THACO table would axe the
Celestial Fury in favor of another weapon you could specialize in such as
daggers. Again I have not verified this but something to consider. Surprised
me.
> natural AC is 3 at level 12. Add on the shadow armour and that goes
> to -3, making her a relatively tough target (as far as thieves go).
> So, not good at hitting folks, but fairly useful at staying out of the
> way of wayward sword thrusts.
While the THACO is tied to the Thief table I have found you can massage it a
bit to help it along. My level 12 SB has a 5/7 THACO which I don't think is
to bad. I have equiped all the THACO reducing items I can find, Capes,
Gaunlets etc. He also has the Girdle of Hill Giant strength which pushes his
STR to 19. Right now he is using a SS of Backstabbing and a +2 short sword.
Towards the end of the game I remember a +4 short sword but thats hardly
something to count on. But I bet you could pickup some +4 daggers along the
way much sooner. That would help as well. I don't think my THACO will be to
much of a problem in the long run. His AC is now at -6. This is with that
Earth Elemental ring, the sewer cape and the Aegis(sp?) armor bought from
the Adventurers Mart which is better than Shadow Armor and protects aganist
Confusion. It should be even lower (I think) when I pick the scales off that
Shadow Dragon. So with that armor and kit bonuses you could hit maybe - 8 -
9 by level 20? With the above info. I have not had a problem running him
along side Korgan.
That said what I _am_ seeing as a potential problem, which I was surprised
you didn't mention, is HPs. For me I think it will be the lack of HPs, not
THACO or AC, that in the end will make me use him less and less on the front
line. In my game Korgan has almost 3x the amount of HPs I do. Jeez :)
>
>>>>>snipped and agree on thief skills<<<<<<
>
> here. So the question to ask has to be, does the benefit of the extra
> combat skills compensate for the loss of backstab?
Agreed as well though I have to say I was surprised at how much I did miss
the backstab. Especially with the SB being near the front, my scout for the
party and being the PC. I never used BS much my other games but my PC was
never a Thief variant either. Its not kit breaking but I do miss it :)
>
> The short answer is yes, if looked at from the point of view of a
> plain comparison. In practice, I must admit that the AC bonuses are
> the only real benefit I can find. Thanks to poor party selection and
> my usual cleric fetish, I'm running with Minsc as the only front line
> fighter and the swashbuckler acting as backup
Thats pretty much where I am composition wise. I am running with Korgan,
Edwin, Viconia, HaerDalis, and Jan. So my guy is really the only other
viable front line/back up fighter. Though I understand with the right
equipment Viconia can get pretty dang tough. I've just read that though.
>
> So, if they're tougher than the average thief, but not sufficiently
> powerful to take the fight to the enemy, where does the swashbukler
> fit in? I'd recommend a similar style to that mentioned in previous
> posts on playing the blade kit
I don't think you have to hold them back anywhere near as much as much as
the blade kit. Level for level my SB right now can out melee HaerDalis hands
down. I'm a fan of HaerDalis but you have to be on the look out for what he
gets into and need to gear his magic so that it is setup to defend him asap
if the need arises. My SB I can send in and see how it goes and he (so far)
has been up to the task. Though as stated before HPs will be a problem :/
>
> * Ditch the dual wield idea. Stick with single weapon usage and put
> your points into a decent melee weapon and into bows. A good bow is
> extremely useful for a thief, allowing them to influence combat from a
> distance. Go with katanas (unless you have someone else to use
> Celestial Fury) or long swords for effectiveness, or short swords for
> a more authentic feel to the character.
Strongly disagree here. BUT I do so with party composition in mind. If your
party is tank heavy then yes I think your advice right on. However if it is
somewhat light on tanks or very light on tanks then I definately would not
recommend dropping dual wield. With Haste or Boots of speed the SB can and
does become and Mage buster. Keep stoneksin down and a fast Sb keeps the
mages busy. At least that is what hes been doing alot of for me. Yeah you
could serve a similar function with ranged but I think with a tank light
party you need to have another in the thick of it.
>
> * The swashbuckler is a thief first and foremost. Their thief
> abilities are as good as anyone, so use them in the thief role. Treat
> combat as an incidental bonus, and concentrate on the substantive
> thieving tasks of finding traps, opening locks and hiding in shadows
> to scout the way ahead.
Well based on my responses so far you know I disagree with you here :) They
are more than a thief and can be used for more than thieving. They can take
it, just might not be able to take for long.
>
> * Experiment with dual classing. I haven't done this, and I'm
> commenting on the single classed swashbuckler as a character.
Now I have thought about this. Thinking maybe a fighter. But I've been
hesitant simply because it makes me feel like I'll lose my SB :) I just like
playing the straight up SB. We'll see. I agree it would definately be a good
class to dual from.
>
> * Finally, don't expect great things from your stronghold. The
> Thieve's Guild is coma-inducing in terms of related quests, and the
> risk balancing element of the guild means you either have to survive
> on a pittence dribbling in, or go for big bucks and invariably lose a
> lot of thieves to the authorities. Oh, and you're artificially tied
> to your guild to keep paying off your superiors, so I don't really
> have a great love for this particular stronghold.
I've enjoyed it for the most part. I was very surprised with it. Its not
what I expected at all. But its been a fun sort of "side game". You're right
being sort of tied to it in terms of getting back at certain times etc. is
kinda rough but its not to bad. Like you, I don't seem to be making any
siginificant amounts of money with it. Glad I've other sources of income :)
Bottom line is so far I've been pleased with the kit. If I have to hold him
back I bit more when the melee gets tough I will but for now hes hanging in
there. One way or another my party will get through :)
Fomar
Phil
Fomar <fomar@no_one_home.com> wrote in message
news:8t4nbu$fnl$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> Nice post. My current game (second time through) is with a
Swashbuckler so I
> wanted to reply with some things I have found as well.
>
> Phil <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8t4g0h$70q$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>>snipped about weapon profs. and Celestial Fury<<<<
> >
Well, I've got no THAC0 bonuses whatsoever, aside from the +2 weapons.
Strength is a measly 14, and no gauntlets etc giving me bonuses to hit
or damage. However, assuming all items from BG1 appear here, I could
in theory add gauntlets of weapon expertise (+2 THAC0 IIRC), brinign
my THAC0's to 8 and 10. But I'm still wandering around early in
chapter 3, so I've not come across a whole lot of goodies. However,
the +2 short swords which are available from skirmishes early on
really do give a boost to the offensive potential of the swashbuckler.
> That said what I _am_ seeing as a potential problem, which I was
surprised
> you didn't mention, is HPs. For me I think it will be the lack of
HPs, not
> THACO or AC, that in the end will make me use him less and less on
the front
> line. In my game Korgan has almost 3x the amount of HPs I do. Jeez
:)
I never really look at hitpoints - I don't plan on getting hit ;-).
Plus since the swashbuckler is the protagonist, I have a habit of
falling back and casting vampiric touch on a summoned creature to help
heal me. Plus my front line's primary job is to act as blockers for
my magic throwers, so I'm really looking for a good defensive
character, and the swashbuckler is the best defensive thief.
> >>>>>snipped and agree on thief skills<<<<<<
> >
> > The short answer is yes, if looked at from the point of view of a
> > plain comparison. In practice, I must admit that the AC bonuses
are
> > the only real benefit I can find. Thanks to poor party selection
and
> > my usual cleric fetish, I'm running with Minsc as the only front
line
> > fighter and the swashbuckler acting as backup
>
> Thats pretty much where I am composition wise. I am running with
Korgan,
> Edwin, Viconia, HaerDalis, and Jan. So my guy is really the only
other
> viable front line/back up fighter. Though I understand with the
right
> equipment Viconia can get pretty dang tough. I've just read that
though.
Yup, since her dex is excellent, and there are items out there to bump
up her measly strength, you only really miss out on the weapon
specialisation bonuses, which only Anomen gets, by virtue of being a
fighter/cleric. Plus her THAC0 improvement will still suffer in being
the same as any other cleric, so I'd use her as another blocker
character for my mages to hide behind. Of course, that then frees up
the thief character to go a-wandering behind the backs of the enemy
and wreak havoc on them ;-).
> > So, if they're tougher than the average thief, but not
sufficiently
> > powerful to take the fight to the enemy, where does the
swashbukler
> > fit in? I'd recommend a similar style to that mentioned in
previous
> > posts on playing the blade kit
>
> I don't think you have to hold them back anywhere near as much as
much as
> the blade kit. Level for level my SB right now can out melee
HaerDalis hands
> down. I'm a fan of HaerDalis but you have to be on the look out for
what he
> gets into and need to gear his magic so that it is setup to defend
him asap
> if the need arises. My SB I can send in and see how it goes and he
(so far)
> has been up to the task. Though as stated before HPs will be a
problem :/
I've not used a blade yet, but having read the thread on how best to
play them, I liked the idea of not getting carried away with a
character and using them as front line fighters when they're not. As
a character to bring in for a pincer movement (exits stealth and
starts laying into the flanks of the enemy formation).
I've really missed not having a bow, especially since I'm carrying the
Tuigan bow around with me and need an excuse to use it in anger ;-).
My way of thinking is that dual wield only reduces penalties, yet
other styles give bonuses to your basic skills. So I'd look to go for
single weapon style with a long sword to have a better chance of
hitting the enemy. Besides, haste and improved haste are cast as a
matter of course before any big fights, so I'm always getting an extra
attack with that method. My party is currently tank light the way I
play (Minsc and me do the grunt work), and I still think dual wield
isn't worth it. Plus, even with haste, I find that by the time I get
to the mage, he's already got off his contingency and has (at least)
stoneskin and mirror image cast on him, so I leave them for my mage
killer Jan (don't laugh, he is a one man magic stopper) and let Minsc
wail on the mage in melee if there's no other high level fighters to
pick on. In essence, my swashbuckler is about the same as a summoned
monster, albeit far more flexible, but she's about as powerful in
combat as, say, the horn of Valhalla berserker.
> > * The swashbuckler is a thief first and foremost. Their thief
> > abilities are as good as anyone, so use them in the thief role.
Treat
> > combat as an incidental bonus, and concentrate on the substantive
> > thieving tasks of finding traps, opening locks and hiding in
shadows
> > to scout the way ahead.
>
> Well based on my responses so far you know I disagree with you here
:) They
> are more than a thief and can be used for more than thieving. They
can take
> it, just might not be able to take for long.
Ah well, I do try to protect my characters and keep them out of battle
;-). I'm not saying that one should mollycoddle the swashbuckler,
just don't get carried away and try to take on a dragon with one arm
tied behind their back.
> > * Experiment with dual classing. I haven't done this, and I'm
> > commenting on the single classed swashbuckler as a character.
>
> Now I have thought about this. Thinking maybe a fighter. But I've
been
> hesitant simply because it makes me feel like I'll lose my SB :) I
just like
> playing the straight up SB. We'll see. I agree it would definately
be a good
> class to dual from.
I think for the soloist, swashbuckler/mage is one of the best classes
(not that anyone would be crazy enough to solo BG2), since you get
full thieving skills, a few weapon proficiencies so you can actually
wield a decent weapon, and access to a load of great spells. I was
pondering swashbuckler/cleric, but I don't think that would be as
powerful as a dual class.
I'm well sck of this Thieve's Guild. My plan is to rest there for
five day intervals, collect the cash, and keep on repeating, then when
I've got a load of cash, just up and leave to go exploring, and to
heck with the guild. But knowing my luck, I'll then get the Shadow
Thieves debt collection branch chasing me as well as those bleeding
vampires.
Fylla & Sprit
I have just started my swashbuckler - so I don't know how she will do in
the long run. She is an imported elf from BG1, with max STR and DEX -
with a 19 STR it should be ok to dual-wield long sword. If you can carry
500 lbs while fighting, you can dual-wield long sword, even in real
life:-). As an elf, she also get a THAC0 bonus when using long swords.
I agree with you that the swashbuckler is a thief first and foremost.
Elf and halfling are superior races for thiefs, you get both racial
thieving modifier and a good bonus for higher dexterity. Imported elves
with 19 STR are great, for a new character I would chose a halfling -
the difference between 17 and 18 strength is not significant while 19
makes an enourmous difference (Half-orc could be a good choice...).
It is difficult to see any real advantages for the swashbuckler compared
to a multi-class fighter/thief. You get faster advancement of thieving
skills and a better dual-wield? But the fighter/thief get a better
selection of weapons, better THAC0 and can still backstab. But, IMO a
swashbuckler is a fun character to run and adds a lot of role-playing to
the game. I gave my character a 125 pick-pocket skill to start with.
Since a swashbuckler always will be a PC, there is little need for
strength potions - at level 18 the innate ability "draw upon holy might"
will give my character a 25 STR and DEX twice a day.
In article <8t4g0h$70q$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Derville
Fylla & Sprit <fylla_o...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8tbel3$59a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> A very interesting post, some comments:
>
> I have just started my swashbuckler - so I don't know how she will
do in
> the long run. She is an imported elf from BG1, with max STR and
DEX -
> with a 19 STR it should be ok to dual-wield long sword. If you can
carry
> 500 lbs while fighting, you can dual-wield long sword, even in real
> life:-). As an elf, she also get a THAC0 bonus when using long
swords.
Having just pumped up my strength to 19, I can thoroughly recommend
this tactic ;-). However, I went with short swords to look more
authentic - my swashbuckler may be akin to musclebound half orc, but
she's just far too dainty looking to hurl long swords around.
However, elf os a good choice for the sword bonuses. I went with
human, thinking this was my character with 17 intelligence (planning
to dual to mage), only to find I'd lost that character file :-(.
> I agree with you that the swashbuckler is a thief first and
foremost.
> Elf and halfling are superior races for thiefs, you get both racial
> thieving modifier and a good bonus for higher dexterity. Imported
elves
> with 19 STR are great, for a new character I would chose a
halfling -
> the difference between 17 and 18 strength is not significant while
19
> makes an enourmous difference (Half-orc could be a good choice...).
The bonuses are nice, but by level 12 or so you don't really worry
about a couple extra points. I still prefer the tactic of bolstering
a few skills, so my move silently and hide in shadows are at 140 each,
while find traps is 110. I'm investing in pick pockets now, which
looks a good area to put points in to complement Jan's skills.
> It is difficult to see any real advantages for the swashbuckler
compared
> to a multi-class fighter/thief. You get faster advancement of
thieving
> skills and a better dual-wield? But the fighter/thief get a better
> selection of weapons, better THAC0 and can still backstab. But, IMO
a
> swashbuckler is a fun character to run and adds a lot of
role-playing to
> the game. I gave my character a 125 pick-pocket skill to start with.
Providing the swashbuckler is used as a thief first and foremost, the
faster progression means he beats the multiclass fighter/thief as a
thieving character. Granted, the fighter/thief will hold his own in
combat for longer than the swashbuckler, but as I said, the
swashbuckler seems more and more to me to be the ideal candidate for
the soloist or small party, when dualled to mage. You get a militant
thief with mage abilities and can advance to the highest mage level in
the game. A pretty potent combination overall, and arguably more than
the sum of his parts.
> Since a swashbuckler always will be a PC, there is little need for
> strength potions - at level 18 the innate ability "draw upon holy
might"
> will give my character a 25 STR and DEX twice a day.
Hrumph. I'm chaotic neutral, and I seem to miss out on DUHM.
However, I do like vampiric touch.
--
P.