Khalid
Catiline
of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen, just for narrative purposes.
First off, what's everyone's opinion of this as a party? I'm playing as a HE
CN male Transmuter, so the party ends up being VERY magic heavy, and rather
lacking in priest spells.
Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
have against Khalid? Every time he's mentioned in FAQs etc. it suggests
dumping him at the first opportunity, or getting him accidentally killed
off. But in my party right now, he's got the lowest THAC0 of anyone.
Admittedly, he does have the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, to compensate for his
low strength, but Minsc has the Gauntlets of Dexterity to compensate for
*his* low Dex.
In terms of their "core" stats, Minsc has
STR 18/93
DEX 15
CON 15
And Khalid has
STR 15
DEX 16
CON 17
In terms of their raw numbers, their stats add up to the same value. Whilst
Strength is probably the biggest requirement for a fighter, this can be
easily improved with the gauntlets of ogre power. Constitution, OTOH, can't.
Plus, it's worth remembering that Minsc doesn't really access any decent
ranger powers in BG1 - just some charm animals. Whereas Khalid gains some
very nice weapons specialisation abilities.
Karkadinn
>I'm currently playing through BG1 again, using the "default" party for BG2
>of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen, just for narrative purposes.
>
>First off, what's everyone's opinion of this as a party? I'm playing as a HE
>CN male Transmuter, so the party ends up being VERY magic heavy, and rather
>lacking in priest spells.
VERY magic heavy? I wouldn't call a party with two mages "VERY" magic heavy.
Slightly, maybe. And since your guy's a specialist mage, it's good to have
Dynaheir to access the spells you can't, just in case.
>Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
>have against Khalid?
In a "regular" D&D game he'd be a great pc or npc. However, in BG, where you
get to choose between a bunch of recruitable npcs, many of whom have 18s in
their respective important stats, Khalid is subpar. A regrettable oversight in
design.
>Admittedly, he does have the Gauntlets of Ogre Power,
Interesting. Where do you get those? I've been using a walkthrough and have
done everything in the game except for most of the actual Baldur's Gate city
and the new areas the expansion adds in (because the last time I took a party
to Werewolf Island I got the everliving crap kicked out of me with no way to
retreat to safety, so I'm waiting until I've done everything else in the game
before trying that again), and I haven't seen those gauntlets anywhere.
>but Minsc has the Gauntlets of Dexterity to compensate for
>*his* low Dex.
But Minsc has really high strength. A low stat is forgivable if there's a
really high stat to balance it out, in powergaming terms. For instance, take
Kagain the dwarf. He has a (technically illegal by the rules) 20 Con. The
bugger actually regenerates, he's so tough. With a Con that high a medium
Strength and low Dex are extremely overlookable. But Khalid doesn't have any
strengths compared to the other npcs, statwise.
>Whereas Khalid gains some
>very nice weapons specialisation abilities.
He does, but so does Shar-Teel, who has better Str (at the admittedly great
cost of pathetic Con... I swear to God I thought that nine was a typo for so
long... okay, nine is technically just a little below average, but for a
fighter that strong, it's an absurd mental image). Although you get Shary
later on, so you have a lesser chance of directing her weapon slots exactly the
way you want them to go. Oh yes, and did I mention Kagain? He rocks
indescribably. Shar and Kag are both evil, though, which can be a sticking
point if you want to have a really high rep. But I'll trade three points of
rep for a fighter who regenerates any day of the week. :)
--
Signing off as Stephen Mackey, the Multi-Threaded RFE Database Liaison.
"When the going gets tough, someone hold my rodent!"
Kish
>
> I'm currently playing through BG1 again, using the "default" party for BG2
> of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen, just for narrative purposes.
>
> First off, what's everyone's opinion of this as a party? I'm playing as a HE
> CN male Transmuter, so the party ends up being VERY magic heavy, and rather
> lacking in priest spells.
Don't dual-class Imoen! Lacking a cleric is...annoying, but not tragic
(especially if you don't have TotSC/Durlag's Tower).
>
> Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
> have against Khalid? Every time he's mentioned in FAQs etc. it suggests
> dumping him at the first opportunity, or getting him accidentally killed
> off.
His Strength is less than 18. That's enough for a lot of people to dump
him without thinking further. He also stammers and lets Jaheira wear
the pants in the family, which annoys people with fixed, macho concepts
of what a fighter is supposed to be.
T.J....@durham.ac.uk
> Catiline said:
>>Admittedly, he does have the Gauntlets of Ogre Power,
> Interesting. Where do you get those? I've been using a walkthrough and have
> done everything in the game except for most of the actual Baldur's Gate city
> and the new areas the expansion adds in (because the last time I took a party
There's your answer. You get them in the city - docks area, IIRC.
Tom
--
The job of a postgraduate student is to mow the lawn of science.
- Muse of Chem Cafe
Leaping Larry Jojo
Kish <Kis...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3D260685...@pacbell.net...
And his rather pathetic fate in BG2 further tarnishes his rep...
Jojo
Arian Hokin
> Catiline wrote:
>
> > Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
> > have against Khalid? Every time he's mentioned in FAQs etc. it suggests
> > dumping him at the first opportunity, or getting him accidentally killed
> > off.
>
> His Strength is less than 18. That's enough for a lot of people to dump
> him without thinking further. He also stammers and lets Jaheira wear
> the pants in the family, which annoys people with fixed, macho concepts
> of what a fighter is supposed to be.
I maintain that he has post-traumatic stress disorder. Cutest guy in the whole of
the game, for my money. Served me well as an archer throughout BG1 - the extra
stars in bow make an effective advantage.
Arian
Catiline
> where you get to choose between a bunch of recruitable npcs, many of
> whom have 18s in their respective important stats, Khalid is subpar. A
> regrettable oversight in design.
Well, I would suggest in response that gauntlets of ogre power give him
18/00 strength; and whilst this is obviously an add-on, it works so well
with his other abilities, giving him stats of 18/00, 16, 17; if you equip
Minsc with gauntlets of dexterity, he's still left with constitution 15.
Though Shar-Teel and Korgan are good fighters, particularly the former,
their evilness makes it much harder to include them in a good party.
Especially if you want to roleplay your party extensively! If you want to
keep them, you will, as you mention, have to limit rep, and will end up
having to do some out-of-character random thieving and stealing. Assuming,
that is, you want to access some of the more rewarding quests, many of which
involve an automatic +1 or +2 to rep on completion.
Phaenar
wrote:
Khalid is one of my favorite characters in BG1. I have stuck with
Khalid and Jaheira since the 2nd time I played BG1, this was after
playing BG2 the first time then I went back and wanted to learn the
history of the NPC's who make up "default" party, as it were: Khalid,
Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Imoen. (In the first game I had Branwen
and Kivan instead of Khalid and Jaheira because I was new at the game
and power-gaming.)
For Khalid and Jaheira both, having 15 strength is a handicap for a
fighter in the AD&D rules because of weight limitations and, to some
degree, melee limitations. It's less of a deal for Jaheira since she
is a druid and was my main healer. But overall the two of them both
have very good stats in other areas.
For Khalid in particular, he doesn't need either a DEX or CON
improvement, and being a pure fighter he advances as fast as a fighter
is going to. Multi-class fighters advance much slower and even Minsc
being a Ranger advances slower -- noticeably so by 5th-6th level.
The main weapon in BG1 is the composite longbow. It has no equal
(except magic bows like the Eagle Bow). But most of the game you have
the composite longbow ruling the battlefield. Khalid makes a good
point man because he has natural high dexterity and excellent CON so
his hit points are excellent. If you watch what he carries in
inventory, 15 strength is not a huge handicap, he can wear plate and
ankegh armor. With bracers of archery and the +1 composite longbow he
is quite deadly.
Some may ask, "What about tough melee battles?" Answer: there are few
battles that require the use of swords and of those that do they are
usually quickly done: Khalid has the AC and hit points to "hold off"
nearly any enemy while the rest of the party peppers it with arrows,
sling bullets or spells. With a +1 sword, or the +2 Varscona, he is
pretty good in melee having 2 pips in large swords. For the far more
rare battles that require longer melee, I always have Khalid equiped
with giant strength potions in one slot and when the enemy closes he
quaffs one of those and is automatically doing +3/+7 on strength, and
+1/+1 or +2/+2 with his melee weapon, for the duration! I have so
many strength potions even Jaheira has some and occasionally Khalid,
MInsc and Jaheira all swarm a tough monster and lay the hurt on with
the use of their liquid enhancers.
I have come to be so effective with bows (Me and elf
fighter/mage/thief, Khalid, Minsc and Imoen) and slings (Jaheira and
Dynaheir) that most enemies cannot approach us. The trick is to stay
close together and have Khalid lead, then stop when enemies are
sighted and concentrate fire on one enemy at a time. If it's a big
enemy group, or a very tough enemy, have Khalid draw his sword and
charge while everyone else stays back. If the enemy is immune to
piercing, have Khalid, Minsc and Jaheira draw swords and daggers and
charge while Dynaheir casts spells.
Any character in BG1 will be vulnerable if caught alone against a
tough enemy. The AD&D game is largely about cooperating as a group
and Khalid is one of the best point fighters you will find, IMNSHO.
Kagain is probably the best overall point fighter in the game because
he regenerates his health after every battle, and has higher strength
and with gauntlets of DEX he is simply formidable, and he is short so
he doesn't block my view of the open road ahead and I can shoot arrows
over his head :-) But Kagain is also evil and that doesn't fit well
with me being CG.
Derville
"Catiline" <cati...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:ag4t0d$srj$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I'm currently playing through BG1 again, using the "default" party for BG2
> of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen, just for narrative
purposes.
>
> First off, what's everyone's opinion of this as a party? I'm playing as a
HE
> CN male Transmuter, so the party ends up being VERY magic heavy, and
rather
> lacking in priest spells.
This is why I never bothered using this particular combination ;-). Subbing
in a proper Cleric is a good idea, to save on ridiculously long resting
times for healing purposes - I'd bring in Branwen to replace Jaheira as a
matter of principle, although IIRC you could dual Dynaheir to Cleric if you
bump her Wisdom up a point or so.
> Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
> have against Khalid? Every time he's mentioned in FAQs etc. it suggests
> dumping him at the first opportunity, or getting him accidentally killed
> off. But in my party right now, he's got the lowest THAC0 of anyone.
> Admittedly, he does have the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, to compensate for
his
> low strength, but Minsc has the Gauntlets of Dexterity to compensate for
> *his* low Dex.
Take off the gauntlets. Then send them into battle. There's your answer.
It's no good comparing NPC's with items on them to cover for the drawbacks
they suffer when they join the group; the comparison has to be between
characters with essentially little more than what they join the group
holding in their hands. In Minsc's case, you get a chap who wields a very
big sword with some degree of proficiency and who can Berserk himself if
need be to add to his destructive abilities. Khalid has marginally better
Dex (actually a plus in BG1, to get more mileage from Bows), but gets tanked
on Strength in comparison to Minsc. Therefore it's always a good guess that
Khalid will inflict less damage in melee than Minsc.
As for ranged combat, the competing Dex scores are 15 and 16 (or +0 and +1
respectively to their to-hit rolls), which again pales away compared to a
true archer such as Kivan (in short, neither Minsc nor Khalid really cuts it
as an archer compared to what else you can find easily in the game). Khalid
does get -2 to AC compared to Minsc's -1 bonus from Dexterity, but that is
counterbalanced by the fact that Khalid's lower Strength means he struggles
to carry a full inventory if he's already loaded up with heavy armour.
Finally, although Khalid gets faster level progression from the Fighter
chart, and the chance to go beyond 2 pips in a weapon, he doesn't have
Minsc's stealth ability (admittedly not much use, as Minsc generally clanks
round in plate armour), or the potential to access priest spells later on
(IIRC Minsc can access these with TOTSC - is this correct?). THAC0
differences will be minimal, with Minsc getting an edge in melee due to
Strength, and Khaid getting ahead when using a Bow. So Khalid's real trick
is being able to accumulate THAC0 bonuses from weapon specialisation, which
is a possibility, but in doing so you have to agree to forego some
flexibility in his character (i.e. he can use Bows well, but neglects other
weapons as a result).
On paper, I admit it sounds rather close, especially when you factor in the
weapon specialisation bonuses. But here lies the rub: to get these extra
pips, Khalid must live to be level 3 at minimum. And this may be where the
anti-Khalid sentiment kicks in. If everyone took Khalid in their first BG1
game, I reckon it's a fair bet that he got killed somewhere along the way,
probably at a very low level. As a result, people may well see Khalid as
being weaker than someone like Minsc, who joins the party later on when the
group is a bit stronger, and the player a bit more experienced. This is
just a pet theory, and may be complete twaddle, but it's the best I can come
up with off the top of my head.
FWIW, though, I still don't like Khalid one little bit in BG1 ;-).
--
Phil
(remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Catiline
without any addons and armour... and if it was a matter of being on
Shipwreck with either of them, I'd choose Minsc any day - better raw
strength. And if we ran out of all other food, I could always abduct Boo.
But if you had [Minsc with item of your choice] vs [Khalid with item of your
choice], Khalid wins hands down, basically because Strength is his only real
weakness - Minsc, OTOH, isn't top notch in either Dex or Con, meaning his AC
is lower and he has fewer hit points.
Currently, I've got both of them at the ToSC XP cap, and you're right that
Minsc gets priest spells - however, possibly because of his low wisdom, it's
only *one* priest spell, at 1st level. Not a great deal of help - I'd rather
have a weapons prof.
Minsc's low wisdom also means (IIRC) that his saving throws are worse than
Khal's - certainly, in my current game, Khal has unmodded saves at least +1
better than Minsc's in most categories.
Plus, though it's a tiny, stupid thing - he has one extra quick item slot.
Unless anyone's found a use for space hamsters in combat ;)
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ag78ek$utb$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Mike Hall
> I'm currently playing through BG1 again, using the "default" party for BG2
> of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen, just for narrative
purposes.
> First off, what's everyone's opinion of this as a party? I'm playing as a
HE
> CN male Transmuter, so the party ends up being VERY magic heavy, and
rather
> lacking in priest spells.
Minsc is the best warrior at the start of the game but Khalid becomes far
superior, due to him being a true fighter, by mid-game, especially with the
ogre gauntlets.
Jaheira isn't much use as a druid or a fighter and has some really horrid
attributes for a half-elven fighter/druid. Faldorn or a cleric are
superior.
Edwin's large amount of spells is far more useful in the tougher BG1 battles
but Dynaheir is a better mage than most.
Imoen is the best thief in the game since Alora comes too late for her
skills to be directed sensibly.
> Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
> have against Khalid? Every time he's mentioned in FAQs etc. it suggests
> dumping him at the first opportunity, or getting him accidentally killed
> off.
"Better part of valour!! Better part of valour!!!"
> But in my party right now, he's got the lowest THAC0 of anyone.
> Admittedly, he does have the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, to compensate for
his
> low strength, but Minsc has the Gauntlets of Dexterity to compensate for
> *his* low Dex.
Shar-Teel and Kagain are both superior fighters. Kagain has dwarven saving
throws and an immense amount of hit points. Shar-Teel doesn't need Ogre
Power or Dexterity and so can use the Weapons Expertise gauntlets.
> In terms of their "core" stats, Minsc has
> STR 18/93
> DEX 15
> CON 15
> And Khalid has
> STR 15
> DEX 16
> CON 17
> In terms of their raw numbers, their stats add up to the same value.
Which is slightly misleading - 18/93 strength is more important than a few
more points in dex and con early on in the game. The gauntlets of dexterity
can also be attained far earlier than the gauntlets of ogre strength.
> Whilst
> Strength is probably the biggest requirement for a fighter, this can be
> easily improved with the gauntlets of ogre power. Constitution, OTOH,
can't.
> Plus, it's worth remembering that Minsc doesn't really access any decent
> ranger powers in BG1 - just some charm animals. Whereas Khalid gains some
> very nice weapons specialisation abilities.
Minsc can go berserk which is useful sometimes (and fun at other times).
Mike Hall
C. Banana
"Mike Hall" <tar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uIIV8.21655$XS.163...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Catiline wrote:
<snip>
> Jaheira isn't much use as a druid or a fighter and has some really horrid
> attributes for a half-elven fighter/druid. Faldorn or a cleric are
> superior.
With comparing Jaheira to the other priest types in the game. Jaheira is
certainly not inferior to the others.
Unlike Faldorn, Jahiera can wear any armour in the game. Jaheira also gets
warrior specialization, thaco, and # of swings. Ergo Jaheira is far more
useful when not casting spells.
She also fights better than all of the single classed clerics in the game.
Just give her the large sword proficiencies, a decent scimitar, a decent
armour, and a decent shield and in a one on one fight she should be able to
beat any single classed cleric (and almost cast as well as them).
Jaheira's (Wisdom 14) spells at TOSC level cap:
5/3/3/2
Branwen (Wisdom 16) Spells at TOSC level cap:
5/5/3/2
As you can see, the difference in terms of casting is two second level
spells and a somewhat different spell selection.
As for the cleric multiclasses:
Yeslick is almost exactly the same as Jaheira. Yeslick has better wisdom
but Jaheira makes up for that with the lower Xp requirements of the druid.
Yeslick has better saving throws, Jaheira can wield better weapons, etc
etc. but I find those pretty minor points.
Tiax is pretty good. If you manage to get him quickly, you can make him a
good thief. In a toe to toe fight he'd lose to Jaheira but he can backstab
and can be your main party thief. In terms of spellcasting he loses.
Then there's Quayle who as a divine spellcaster is inferior to Jaheira
since he always has a chance of spell failure.
Kish
>
> "Mike Hall" <tar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:uIIV8.21655$XS.163...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > Catiline wrote:
> <snip>
> > Jaheira isn't much use as a druid or a fighter and has some really horrid
> > attributes for a half-elven fighter/druid. Faldorn or a cleric are
> > superior.
>
> With comparing Jaheira to the other priest types in the game. Jaheira is
> certainly not inferior to the others.
Oh, I think she is. She can never cast fifth level spells, as Faldorn
can (nor can she summon a dread wolf) . She can't fight as well as
Yeslick can. She can't cast lower level spells as well as Branwen or
Viconia, and instead of Turn Undead (useful at least at Durlag's Tower)
she has Shapeshift (useful nowhere).
So she is the only divine spellcaster in BG1 who isn't best in her area
of specialization. Sure, she's a better fighter than Faldorn--but if
you want a fighting priest, you want Yeslick; taking Faldorn is a
statement that you want a priest entirely for a spellcaster. As a
spellcaster, Jaheria is tied with Quayle for the position of the weakest
priest in the game (below even Tiax, because she has a much less useful
spell selection than a cleric).
>
> Unlike Faldorn, Jahiera can wear any armour in the game. Jaheira also gets
> warrior specialization, thaco, and # of swings. Ergo Jaheira is far more
> useful when not casting spells.
>
> She also fights better than all of the single classed clerics in the game.
> Just give her the large sword proficiencies, a decent scimitar, a decent
> armour, and a decent shield and in a one on one fight she should be able to
> beat any single classed cleric (and almost cast as well as them).
>
> Jaheira's (Wisdom 14) spells at TOSC level cap:
> 5/3/3/2
>
> Branwen (Wisdom 16) Spells at TOSC level cap:
> 5/5/3/2
>
> As you can see, the difference in terms of casting is two second level
> spells and a somewhat different spell selection.
A decidedly inferior spell selection for druids. Not a trivial
consideration itself.
>
> As for the cleric multiclasses:
>
> Yeslick is almost exactly the same as Jaheira. Yeslick has better wisdom
> but Jaheira makes up for that with the lower Xp requirements of the druid.
> Yeslick has better saving throws, Jaheira can wield better weapons,
Actually, unless you're thinking of getting Drizzt's Frost Brand
scimitar, Yeslick has better saving throws, and weapons, and spells, and
Strength, and his innate Dispel Magic...
The only reason to take Jaheira in BG1 is for her connection to the
plot. In terms of power, she's arguably the weakest NPC in BG1.
ilya popov
> of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen, just for narrative
purposes.
Off Khalid. Get Adjantis or the ranger in High Hedge. There's always Corwyn,
but he doesn't come along until Chapter 4.
>
> First off, what's everyone's opinion of this as a party? I'm playing as a
HE
> CN male Transmuter, so the party ends up being VERY magic heavy, and
rather
> lacking in priest spells.
I always chose ranger. I play characters that fit within the confines of my
personality and my tastes. This usually results in me playing swashbucklers,
sorcerers and rangers. And never elves, only half elf or human.
> Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone seem to
> have against Khalid? Every time he's mentioned in FAQs etc. it suggests
> dumping him at the first opportunity, or getting him accidentally killed
> off.
He's an epic whiner. Just slightly worse than Jahiera, who sounded liked a
Russian with a cold.I couldn't handle Khalid's stammering and whining
nature. Thus, as soon as I had the chance, I sent him ahead of the rest of
the party into one of the myriad forests, where he died a gruesome death.
But in my party right now, he's got the lowest THAC0 of anyone.
I always managed to get my main character down to at least a -5 AC and 5 or
6 THAC0. I never much cared for stats though; it seems rather contrary to
the entire concept of 'role-playing.' Unless Baldur's Gate is a 'Stats
Playing Game.' Of course, that's what I thought Diablo was...
- ilya popov
Catiline
she's varied, with a wide range of abilities, none of which she's utterly
dire in. As a fighter, she is actually okay, especially if kitted out in
full battle gear with a scimitar +2, full plate, gauntlets of dex, large
shield +2, etc.. But as it is, most players want a brilliant mage (who'll
never fight), a brilliant cleric (who'll just fight defensively), a
brilliant tank (who'll never do anything BUT fight), a brilliant ranged
attacker (who'll never melee), etc.. Jaheira is a jack of all trades, but a
master of none.
Er, by "all trades", I mean "fighting and being a druid".
"Kish" <Kis...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3D279C3C...@pacbell.net...
C. Banana
> >
> > "Mike Hall" <tar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:uIIV8.21655$XS.163...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > > Catiline wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > Jaheira isn't much use as a druid or a fighter and has some really
horrid
> > > attributes for a half-elven fighter/druid. Faldorn or a cleric are
> > > superior.
> >
> > With comparing Jaheira to the other priest types in the game. Jaheira
is
> > certainly not inferior to the others.
>
> Oh, I think she is. She can never cast fifth level spells, as Faldorn
> can (nor can she summon a dread wolf) .
Faldorn isn't as useful when she's not casting spells though. If you've
maxed your levels, Jaheira is more than twice as useful when not casting
spells.
> She can't fight as well as Yeslick can.
Eh? Unless your spending a lot of time casting draw upon holy might (which
is possible), Jaheira is pretty equal to Yeslick. They both have the exact
same strength, the same dexterity modifier, and the same constution
modifier.
With ToSC installed for weapons they're roughly the same
Yeslick's best one handed weapon is the
Staff Mace +2 2d4+2
Jaheira's best one handed weapon is the
Frostbrand +3
Even if you don't knick the Frostbrand +3, Jaheira can still use the Staff
Mace + 2.
P.S. I've never played Baldur's Gate without ToSC so if that's what we're
talking about, I'll just concede defeat.
> She can't cast lower level spells as well as Branwen or
> Viconia, and instead of Turn Undead (useful at least at Durlag's Tower)
> she has Shapeshift (useful nowhere).
I don't know about that. The bear shapeshifts are each a free cure light
wounds for Jaheira since she heals when she uses it. If she's low on
health in the middle of battle, a quick shapeshift into wolf can help her
get away quicker.
> So she is the only divine spellcaster in BG1 who isn't best in her area
> of specialization. Sure, she's a better fighter than Faldorn--but if
> you want a fighting priest, you want Yeslick; taking Faldorn is a
> statement that you want a priest entirely for a spellcaster.
Actually I usually take both Jaheira and Yeslick in my party. Both a
cleric and a druid mean less time wasted resting as well as the fact that
Jaheira and Yeslick can both hold their own in a fight.
> As a
> spellcaster, Jaheria is tied with Quayle for the position of the weakest
> priest in the game (below even Tiax, because she has a much less useful
> spell selection than a cleric).
You don't like Charm Person or Mammal or Call Lightening? To each their
own I guess. I find at least these two spells which clerics don't get
userful..
If you enough patience to use it, goodberry is a pretty good spell.
<snip>
> A decidedly inferior spell selection for druids. Not a trivial
> consideration itself.
See above.
> >
> > As for the cleric multiclasses:
> >
> > Yeslick is almost exactly the same as Jaheira. Yeslick has better
wisdom
> > but Jaheira makes up for that with the lower Xp requirements of the
druid.
> > Yeslick has better saving throws, Jaheira can wield better weapons,
>
> Actually, unless you're thinking of getting Drizzt's Frost Brand
> scimitar, Yeslick has better saving throws, and weapons, and spells, and
> Strength, and his innate Dispel Magic...
Yeslick does have better saving throws, I'll definately concede that. He
also has pretty nifty special abilty of dispel magic.
I've always pickpocketed the scimitar from Drizzt so Jaheira has always
been better armed than Yeslick in my parties.
Unless my game is really bugged, Yeslick and Jaheira have the exact same
strength.
If I only wanted one of the two, I'd take Jaheira though. If she's the
only priest in my party, then I'll be relying on her shapeshiftings and
goodberries spells for additional healing (I've even practiced the
goodberries spell enough that I can do the spell fairly quickly). But the
really deciding factor between the two is the fact that I don't have to
wait for Jaheira. I can have her pretty much right away.
> The only reason to take Jaheira in BG1 is for her connection to the
> plot. In terms of power, she's arguably the weakest NPC in BG1.
I don't really believe it. I think I'll need to see some hardcore numbers
first. C'mon you know you want to show it to me! :)
Mike Hall
C. Banana wrote:
> Kish wrote:
> > C. Banana wrote:
> > > > Jaheira isn't much use as a druid or a fighter and has some really
> > > > horrid attributes for a half-elven fighter/druid. Faldorn or a
cleric
> > > > are superior.
> > > With comparing Jaheira to the other priest types in the game. Jaheira
> > > is certainly not inferior to the others.
> > Oh, I think she is. She can never cast fifth level spells, as Faldorn
> > can (nor can she summon a dread wolf) .
> Faldorn isn't as useful when she's not casting spells though.
> If you've maxed your levels, Jaheira is more than twice as useful when
> not casting spells.
Although Faldorn gets more spells and can shapeshift far sooner than
Jaheira.
> > She can't fight as well as Yeslick can.
> Eh? Unless your spending a lot of time casting draw upon holy might
> (which is possible), Jaheira is pretty equal to Yeslick. They both have
the
> exact same strength, the same dexterity modifier, and the same constution
> modifier.
> With ToSC installed for weapons they're roughly the same
> Yeslick's best one handed weapon is the
> Staff Mace +2 2d4+2
> Jaheira's best one handed weapon is the
> Frostbrand +3
> Even if you don't knick the Frostbrand +3, Jaheira can still use the Staff
> Mace + 2.
Neither is much good at fighting, although DUHM makes Yeslick reasonable for
a couple of rounds. As a matter of fact, neither are significantly better
fighters than Faldorn or Branwen since the latter gain levels quicker
(especially Faldorn).
> > She can't cast lower level spells as well as Branwen or
> > Viconia, and instead of Turn Undead (useful at least at Durlag's Tower)
> > she has Shapeshift (useful nowhere).
> I don't know about that. The bear shapeshifts are each a free cure light
> wounds for Jaheira since she heals when she uses it.
.. and is useful for carrying piles of junk out of Durlag's Tower.
> If she's low on
> health in the middle of battle, a quick shapeshift into wolf can help her
> get away quicker.
Not sure about that one though. If you've got time to shapeshift, you've
got time to drink potions and nearly time to cast a cure light wounds! The
wolf is likely to face an extra round of combat too.
> > So she is the only divine spellcaster in BG1 who isn't best in her area
> > of specialization. Sure, she's a better fighter than Faldorn--but if
> > you want a fighting priest, you want Yeslick; taking Faldorn is a
> > statement that you want a priest entirely for a spellcaster.
> Actually I usually take both Jaheira and Yeslick in my party. Both a
> cleric and a druid mean less time wasted resting as well as the fact that
> Jaheira and Yeslick can both hold their own in a fight.
Although a proper fighter and Branwen/Faldorn would mean that monsters would
do less damage anyway.
> > As a
> > spellcaster, Jaheria is tied with Quayle for the position of the weakest
> > priest in the game (below even Tiax, because she has a much less useful
> > spell selection than a cleric).
> You don't like Charm Person or Mammal or Call Lightening? To each
> their own I guess. I find at least these two spells which clerics don't
get
> userful..
I find that Call Lightning is generally cast once Kagain and Shar-Teel have
finished massacring everyone. It needs serious levels to be really
effective and Jaheira simply doesn't have them until the outdoor fights
become irrelevant massacres.
> If you enough patience to use it, goodberry is a pretty good spell.
If you have the patience of Job, goodberry is a useful spell!
> > A decidedly inferior spell selection for druids. Not a trivial
> > consideration itself.
> See above.
Druids don't have animate dead (far more powerful in BG1 than in BG2 btw)
which pretty much guarantees their decided inferiority of spells.
> If I only wanted one of the two, I'd take Jaheira though. If she's the
> only priest in my party, then I'll be relying on her shapeshiftings and
> goodberries spells for additional healing (I've even practiced the
> goodberries spell enough that I can do the spell fairly quickly). But the
> really deciding factor between the two is the fact that I don't have to
> wait for Jaheira. I can have her pretty much right away.
Fair enough, although your insistence on using goodberry spells makes me
doubt your sanity:)
> > The only reason to take Jaheira in BG1 is for her connection to the
> > plot. In terms of power, she's arguably the weakest NPC in BG1.
> I don't really believe it. I think I'll need to see some hardcore numbers
> first. C'mon you know you want to show it to me! :)
Hmm... Tiax, Garrick and that goth elf-mage make Jaheira look like a
nuclear-powered Xena, so it'd be a pretty impressive argument to convince
anyone that Jaheira is the weakest NPC in BG1!
Mike Hall
C. Banana
>
> C. Banana wrote:
> > Kish wrote:
> > > C. Banana wrote:
> > > > Mike Hall wrote:
<snip>
> > Faldorn isn't as useful when she's not casting spells though.
> > If you've maxed your levels, Jaheira is more than twice as useful when
> > not casting spells.
>
> Although Faldorn gets more spells and can shapeshift far sooner than
> Jaheira.
I completely agree with you here. I just prefer a priest that's a lot more
useful when they're not casting spells.
<snip>
> Neither is much good at fighting, although DUHM makes Yeslick reasonable
for
> a couple of rounds. As a matter of fact, neither are significantly
better
> fighters than Faldorn or Branwen since the latter gain levels quicker
> (especially Faldorn).
Okay, I'll bite and play the number's games.
Let's say we have a fighter with Dex 16, plate mail armor, helmet, and a
tower shield. His AC is 0.
We'll see how Jaheira fares against Faldorn and Yeslick fares against
Branwen with regards to damage done to our poor fighter. We'll set them
against their opponent at level 1, mid level, and ToSC cap level. We'll
give each of them their best one handed weapon with regards to damage
output. No other equipment is allowed.
XP at 0:
Jaheira & Yeslick wielding Staff-Mace +2
THACO 17 -> 20% chance to hit
1.5 arracks per round
Average damage of weapon= 9
9 x 20% x 1.5 = 2.7 damage per round
Faldorn & Branwen wielding Staff-Mace +2
THACO 18 -> 15% chance to hit
1 attack per round
Average damage of weapon = 7
7 x 15% x 1 = 1.05 damage per round
Conclusion: In our first test case, Jaheira & Yeslick are about 2.5 times
better than Faldorn & Branwen.
XP at 8000 (enough for a 4th level fighter):
Jaheira & Yeslick wielding Staff-Mace +2
THACO 15 -> 30% chance to hit
1.5 attacks per round
Average damage of weapon = 9
9 x 30% x 1.5 = 4.05 damage per round
Branwen wielding Staff-Mace + 2
THACO 16 -> 25% chance to hit
1 attack per round
Average damage of weapon = 7
7 x 25% x 1 = 1.75 damage per round
Faldorn wielding Frostbrand + 3
THACO 15 -> 30% chance to hit
1 attack per round
Average damage of weapon = 7.5
7.5 x 30% x 1 = 2.25 damage per round
Conclusion: In our second test case, Jaheira & Yeslick are about 2.3 times
better than Branwen and 1.8 times better than Faldorn
XP at TOSC cap:
Jaheira wielding Frostbrand + 3
THACO 10 -> 55% chance to hit
2 attacks per round
Average damage of weapon: 9.5
9.5 x 55% x 2 = 10.45 damage per round
Yeslick wielding Staff-Mace + 2
THACO 11 -> 50% chance to hit
2 attacks per round
Average damage of weapon: 9
9 x 50% x 2 = 9 damage per round
Faldorn wielding Frostbrand +3
THACO 11 -> 50% chance to hit
1 attack per round
Average damage of weapon: 7.5
7.5 x 50% x 1 = 3.75 damage per round
Branwen wielding Staff-Mace + 2
THACO 14 -> 35% chance to hit
1 attack per round
Average damage of weapon: 7
7 x 35% x 1 = 2.45 damage per round
Conclusion: In our final test case Jaheira was about 2.8 times better
Faldorn. Yeslick was about 3.7 times better than Branwen.
I don't know about you but I think that Jaheira and Yeslick are
significantly better fighters than Branwen and Faldorn.
<snip>
> > If she's low on
> > health in the middle of battle, a quick shapeshift into wolf can help
her
> > get away quicker.
>
> Not sure about that one though. If you've got time to shapeshift, you've
> got time to drink potions and nearly time to cast a cure light wounds!
The
> wolf is likely to face an extra round of combat too.
The wolf can run quick though. Truthfully though, I rarely use the wolf
shapeshift so if you want to continue arguing this point, I'll just let you
win.
> > > So she is the only divine spellcaster in BG1 who isn't best in her
area
> > > of specialization. Sure, she's a better fighter than Faldorn--but if
> > > you want a fighting priest, you want Yeslick; taking Faldorn is a
> > > statement that you want a priest entirely for a spellcaster.
>
> > Actually I usually take both Jaheira and Yeslick in my party. Both a
> > cleric and a druid mean less time wasted resting as well as the fact
that
> > Jaheira and Yeslick can both hold their own in a fight.
>
> Although a proper fighter and Branwen/Faldorn would mean that monsters
would
> do less damage anyway.
But I could take Yeslick and fighter or Jaheira and a fighter and take even
less damage.
I'll point out that the difference in healing between Yeslick and Branwen
is one cure serious (17 hp). Not a bad trade for Yeslick's better
fighting.
Mind you, I'll completely concede that Faldorn's a bit nutty since she has
more healing than Branwen & Viconia combined (let alone Jaheira and
Yeslick). Then again, none of my good/neutral parties have ever had a half
decent roleplaying reason to take her instead of Jaheira.
<snip>
> > You don't like Charm Person or Mammal or Call Lightening? To each
> > their own I guess. I find at least these two spells which clerics
don't
> get
> > userful..
>
> I find that Call Lightning is generally cast once Kagain and Shar-Teel
have
> finished massacring everyone. It needs serious levels to be really
> effective and Jaheira simply doesn't have them until the outdoor fights
> become irrelevant massacres.
The damage on the spell is 2d8+1d8/level IIRC and there'll be at least a
few lightening in a longer outdoor fight. You may not like the spell and I
respect that but when I manage to get the spell going I really like it.
> > If you enough patience to use it, goodberry is a pretty good spell.
>
> If you have the patience of Job, goodberry is a useful spell!
It takes me 3x the time it takes a priest to cast cure light wounds.
> > > A decidedly inferior spell selection for druids. Not a trivial
> > > consideration itself.
> > See above.
>
> Druids don't have animate dead (far more powerful in BG1 than in BG2 btw)
> which pretty much guarantees their decided inferiority of spells.
Animate Dead is an alright spell. I usually memorize dispel
magic/protection from fire instead since my mage(s) usually have quite a
bit of summoning spells memorized.
> > If I only wanted one of the two, I'd take Jaheira though. If she's the
> > only priest in my party, then I'll be relying on her shapeshiftings and
> > goodberries spells for additional healing (I've even practiced the
> > goodberries spell enough that I can do the spell fairly quickly). But
the
> > really deciding factor between the two is the fact that I don't have to
> > wait for Jaheira. I can have her pretty much right away.
>
> Fair enough, although your insistence on using goodberry spells makes me
> doubt your sanity:)
Oh, I can give you lots of reasons to doubt my sanity. :)
Kish
>
> Animate Dead is an alright spell. I usually memorize dispel
> magic/protection from fire instead since my mage(s) usually have quite a
> bit of summoning spells memorized.
Mage summoning spells are temporary. Animate Dead lasts for eight
hours.
And if you've got Yeslick, you don't usually need to memorize Dispel
Magic.
C. Banana
> "C. Banana" wrote:
> >
>
> > Animate Dead is an alright spell. I usually memorize dispel
> > magic/protection from fire instead since my mage(s) usually have quite
a
> > bit of summoning spells memorized.
>
> Mage summoning spells are temporary. Animate Dead lasts for eight
> hours.
Actually I knew that already.
> And if you've got Yeslick, you don't usually need to memorize Dispel
> Magic.
A little more doesn't hurt. My parties do encounter more than one wizard
between rests.
Jonathan Ellis
Kish wrote in message <3D28F2EC...@pacbell.net>...
>"C. Banana" wrote:
>>
>
>> Animate Dead is an alright spell. I usually memorize dispel
>> magic/protection from fire instead since my mage(s) usually have
quite a
>> bit of summoning spells memorized.
>
>Mage summoning spells are temporary. Animate Dead lasts for eight
>hours.
...and skeletons are wimps with 8 or fewer hps that basically die
when the enemy sneezes, and you'll take them out with the first Fireball
that your mages cast on your enemies. The length of time that the enemy
lasts, outside of actual combat, is completely irrelevant. If you want
weak summons that die quickly either when they are hit by the enemy, or
when you zap the enemy group with a fireball, a mage zapping a wand of
monster summoning is entirely adequate, for every enemy except
Basilisks, and the main maps with Basilisks can be completed by one guy
with a scroll of protection from petrification (the random map with a
basilisk ambush is best completed by shooting the thing to death before
it has the chance to gaze, or running like hell in the other direction.)
Animate Dead is much more useful in BG2, but even there you only
need one complete priest-type, which can even be made up of half a
cleric and half a druid (Aerie and Jaheira are entirely adequate as
clerical spellcasters for a 6-person party, all the way up to the end of
ToB.)
>And if you've got Yeslick, you don't usually need to memorize Dispel
>Magic.
True. I use mages for dispelling, though, usually, or fighters shooting
Arrows of Dispelling (when I can get them) which don't destroy the buffs
I've cast on my own party.
Goodberries sucks, though.
I don't believe in pickpocketing Drizzt while keeping Jaheira in the
party, as she's really Good (although her alignment says true-neutral,
due to the ridiculous limitation on druids being neutral with respect to
good and evil, and the fact that consequently she complains if your
reputation goes too high so the only way to stop her complaining is to
commit theft or murder, acts of which she in fact would disapprove most
strongly), although I might do so for Faldorn, knowing the way she turns
out in BG2 (she, by the way, should be allowed to be Neutral Evil in
BG1, and Jaheira to be Neutral Good.) Jaheira's best weapon is either
the Staff-Mace +2, or the Quarterstaff +3 from Ulgoth's Beard, or the
Dagger of Venom: and, from distance, the Sling 3 from Durlag's Tower if
you have TotSC, or any Sling +1 if you don't (this about distance
weapons is true of ANY cleric or druid.) Before that, there are of
course Quarterstaffs +1 in plenty (in preference to a dagger for
Jaheira, unless you get her a Dagger+2 and a shield.)
Neither Jaheira, Yeslick, Branwen or Faldorn is much cop in a fight
without strength buffs. Yeslick has better strength buffs, thanks to his
ability to cast Draw Upon Holy Might. Branwen might have the same
advantage, but is limited to fewer attacks per round, so is less useful
than Jaheira or Yeslick in a fight. Faldorn has more spells than
Jaheira, but they, too, are druid spells (and thus, those who damn
Jaheira's spell selection damn Faldorn's too), and she too will be
useless in a fight - more so than Jaheira, who at least has weapon
specialisation and extra attacks per round, neither of which Faldorn
has.
In melee, Yeslick might have an advantage both before and after
either character has found the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, because he can
cast Draw Upon Holy Might: but, in either case, Jaheira is entirely
adequate. Either can wield the same quarterstaffs, the same slings:
Yeslick can wield (for instance) Ashideena, while Jaheira can use the
Longtooth dagger or Dagger of Venom. As far as actual weapons go,
they're about equal unless you pickpocket or kill Drizzt (in which case
Jaheira has the better weapons, no question, from Drizzt's scimitars.)
And, against the fact that Yeslick can use Draw Upon Holy Might is the
fact that he *needs* to, and thus spends an extra round buffing
himself - which is an extra round before the expiry of all your other
buffing spells, which thus run out quicker when you need them in the
fight, and thus handicaps the rest of your party. Either that, or he
doesn't use it, which negates his advantage over Jaheira.
Jaheira can reach a higher level as a druid than Yeslick can reach as a
Cleric, which means one extra fourth level spell - Cure Serious Wounds,
anyone?
Faldorn, Viconia, Yeslick, Branwen, and even Quayle and Tiax - some
or all of these may have more actual spells than Jaheira (who has the
lowest wisdom of any of the priest-types apart from Quayle), but frankly
if you want them to cast lots more spells, give any of them a potion of
Insight and they're all equal, except that the single-classers will have
one more level than the multi-classers, at the expense of any ability to
fight decently in the later stages of the game. *None* of the priests
has more than 16 wisdom, which means that Jaheira's 14 only loses out on
two 2nd-level spells - the most useless spell level for druids anyway,
so no loss compared to Faldorn on that score.
(Although, if you give the tomes of Wisdom to Jaheira or to
Branwen, then the difference shows: because Branwen's wisdom, going up
to 19, will get her an extra 1st *and* 4th level spell, while Jaheira
will still be under 18, and as such need to quaff a potion of insight to
memorize her maximum complement of spells, at which point she will still
be two spells behind Branwen.)
But Jaheira is not weak. Frankly, she's stronger than Khalid - in
my last game when I took the "standard" party (Minsc, Jaheira, Imoen,
Dynaheir, Khalid, and dual-classed Imoen at thief level 7 to mage and
she reached level 8), it was Jaheira who got the gauntlets of ogre
power, Minsc who got the gauntlets of dexterity, and they became my two
tanks, while Khalid hung back and shot arrows from his bow or had to
quaff potions of giant strength before being any good at melee. Jaheira
was always the senior one in that partnership anyway...
Jonathan.
Derville
> Well, you do have a point, insofar as Minsc is the better raw fighter,
i.e.,
> without any addons and armour... and if it was a matter of being on
> Shipwreck with either of them, I'd choose Minsc any day - better raw
> strength. And if we ran out of all other food, I could always abduct Boo.
Nah, go for Boo's big brother (a full size giant space hamster), who at
least would provide more than a single mouthful ;-).
> But if you had [Minsc with item of your choice] vs [Khalid with item of
your
> choice], Khalid wins hands down, basically because Strength is his only
real
> weakness - Minsc, OTOH, isn't top notch in either Dex or Con, meaning his
AC
> is lower and he has fewer hit points.
Well, look at it this way: if Khalid's one item is the Gauntlets of Ogre
Power, I'd personally counter that by giving Minsc Spider's Bane (a unique
BG1 item - if we add in TOTSC, the item files have a +3 2-handed Sword,
called The World's Edge) and letting them slug it out. Minsc's Strength is
sufficiently close to Khalid's adjusted figure that the bonuses from
Spider's Bane ought to give him quite a good showing in such a contest. In
terms of stat-boosting items, giving Minsc the Gauntlets of Dex is IMHO not
a good choice in a party-based game, because his gain would be far less than
other NPC's on offer (i.e. Ajantis, whose decent but not spectacular stats
benefit greatly from this item).
To be honest, I've wondered about how to compare characters fairly - should
the comparison be between them naked (i.e. nothing at all - obviously
favours spellcasters, with their innate powers), or with a specified number
of item choices to equip themselves with. I think around three items ought
to be enough to allow an NPCto cover any glaring weaknesses before trying
any sort of duel with a rival character. So for Khalid let's say Gauntlets
of Ogre Power + Varscona + Large Shield+2. Give Minsc Gauntlets of Dex +
Varscona + Large Shield+2.
We'd end up with two guys with similar defences (Minsc would have the edge
due to his greater Dex bonus) and very similar attacks (Khalid gets the
all-important +1 to-hit bonus from 18/00 Strength). After that it comes
down, as with so much in AD&D, to the roll of the dice - criticals from
either character would hurt their opponent, and so on. But if we discount
such events, Khalid's (hopefully) greater hitpoint total and benefits from
additional weapon pips would then face off against Minsc's Berserker rage.
In short, a very even contest, and now I'm not sure myself how to call it,
seeing as I deliberately avoid confuddling myself with maths in these
situations ;-).
> Currently, I've got both of them at the ToSC XP cap, and you're right that
> Minsc gets priest spells - however, possibly because of his low wisdom,
it's
> only *one* priest spell, at 1st level. Not a great deal of help - I'd
rather
> have a weapons prof.
Yeah, Rangers come on a bit more in BG2, when they can access up to (IIRC)
3rd level priest spells. Minsc's big bonus is that he can access any priest
spell, Clerical or Druidic. And in a straight duel, if we add in a CLW
spell for Minsc, that further increases his survivability chances, but is
counterbalanced by Khalid's additional chances to hit based on weapon
specialisation. It really is quite an interesting contest in the making
here.
> Minsc's low wisdom also means (IIRC) that his saving throws are worse than
> Khal's - certainly, in my current game, Khal has unmodded saves at least
+1
> better than Minsc's in most categories.
BG1 doesn't implement any penalties to saving throws vs spells based on
Wisdom scores. As for saving throws generally, IIRC it's based mainly on
Constitution, which would be why Khalid has the edge over Minsc.
Personally, I rely on AC in BG1 before saving throws, because it's generally
easier for me to suppress magic users than to stop my team taking any damage
in melee combat.
> Plus, though it's a tiny, stupid thing - he has one extra quick item slot.
> Unless anyone's found a use for space hamsters in combat ;)
Ahh, another one who hasn't found Boo's +5 Teeth. Here's a clue: try the
cow dungeon underneath Durlag's Tower, and then turn left at the Borg....
--
Phil (did I miss anything from the urban myth there?)
(remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Gebhard Blucher
> Secondly, and the main thrust of my argument, what does everyone
seem to
> have against Khalid?
Who knows. Don't pay attention to them anyway, they don't know what
they're talking about . ;-) Khalid, in the long run, is the best
Good/Neutral fighter in the game (second only to the evil Kaigan).
GB
Kish
Err...am I missing someone, or is he the /only/ single-classed
Good/Neutral fighter in the game?
Gebhard Blucher
> Err...am I missing someone, or is he the /only/ single-classed
> Good/Neutral fighter in the game?
Har har. Sub Fighter/Paladin/Ranger. :-)
GB
Gebhard Blucher
> Err...am I missing someone, or is he the /only/ single-classed
> Good/Neutral fighter in the game?
Actually as a fighter (not just a Fighter) I'd count him as the second
best out of all 25 NPCs.
GB
Mike Hall
> Actually as a fighter (not just a Fighter) I'd count him as the second
> best out of all 25 NPCs.
Better than Shar-Teel, Kagain and Coran?
Mike Hall
Kharsis
irritating
Kharsis
Colin E
Yes!
Though Coran does have the edge as an archer, Khalid is the better
all-rounder and as an out-and-out swordsman makes one of the best
tanks in the game - he just lacks the Boo adjustment.
Let him get to level 5/6 or so and he really comes into his own.
He just needs the occasional 'good dwarven ale' to stiffen the
nerve :-)
Colin E
Kish
>
> Gebhard Blucher wrote:
>
> <<Actually as a fighter (not just a Fighter) I'd count him as the second
> best out of all 25 NPCs.>>
>
Nevermind, you already said--Kagain.
Kish
Derville
"Colin E" <co...@c-elliott.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:agg4u4$moc$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
This ought to be a good strategy with Khalid. Although some people reckon
his AI script actually gives him a good morale rating, he used to break
combat far too often for my liking. However, in BG getting Brahms and Liszt
is meant to provide a bonus to morale (yippee!) while providing a penalty to
luck (boo!). So the solution would appear to be to get Khalid legless, then
cast a Luck spell on him to counteract the effect of the booze. It's kinda
like getting drunk on absinthe and sobering up on gin, but it certainly
makes Khalid a more interesting character to play ;-).
Gebhard Blucher
Shar-Teel and Coran yes, but not Kagain. Kagain is the very best
fighting-type character in the game. All IMO, of course.
GB
Derville
"Gebhard Blucher" <g_bl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uiurgf9...@corp.supernews.com...
Is this for melee attack only? Just that I've never heard anyone put any BG
NPC ahead of Coran when it comes to firing off ranged weapons at an alarming
rate ;-).
Actually, I was just considering Kivan as a Khalid alternative for melee
purposes only. If we give Khalid 4 pips in Large Swords and Varscona, and
compare him to a 2-pip Kivan also wielding Varscona, we would get:
* Same base THAC0, as both use the same THAC0 chart
* Kivan gets +1/+3 to hit/damage from his percentile Strength. Khalid gets
nowt.
* Kivan gets +1/+2 from 2 pips in Large Swords. Khalid gets +3/+4 from
putting 4 pips into that skill.
* Kivan gets the +1 to-hit bonus for being an Elf.
Overall, Khalid would get +3 to hit (weapon mastery, ignoring Varscona) and
+4 to damage (weapon skill). Kivan would get +3 to hit (Elf bonus +
Strength bonus + weapon specialisation) and +5 to damage (Strength bonus
plus weapon specialisation).
If we were to add on Strength-boosting items, Khalid would close the gap,
because his biggest weakness currently is his low Strength score. Also if
we change weapons Khalid would have an edge, as the Elven +1 bonus only
covers Large Swords and Bows in BG1. However, all this maths has at least
proven to me why I thought it a good idea to keep Kivan, but work on his
sword-wielding skills instead of trying to find him a decent Halberd in BG1.
--
Phil (Elf-lover, Khalid-hater)
(remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Gebhard Blucher
>
> Is this for melee attack only? Just that I've never heard anyone
put any BG
> NPC ahead of Coran when it comes to firing off ranged weapons at an
alarming
> rate ;-).
>
> Actually, I was just considering Kivan as a Khalid alternative for
melee
> purposes only. If we give Khalid 4 pips in Large Swords and
Varscona, and
> compare him to a 2-pip Kivan also wielding Varscona, we would get:
>
> * Same base THAC0, as both use the same THAC0 chart
>
> * Kivan gets +1/+3 to hit/damage from his percentile Strength.
Khalid gets
> nowt.
>
> * Kivan gets +1/+2 from 2 pips in Large Swords. Khalid gets +3/+4
from
> putting 4 pips into that skill.
4* = +3/+5
>
> * Kivan gets the +1 to-hit bonus for being an Elf.
>
Also: Khalid gets +3 hp/level. Kivan gets nowt.
> Overall, Khalid would get +3 to hit (weapon mastery, ignoring
Varscona) and
> +4 to damage (weapon skill). Kivan would get +3 to hit (Elf bonus +
> Strength bonus + weapon specialisation) and +5 to damage (Strength
bonus
> plus weapon specialisation).
>
It's the same (see error re: High Mastery). +3/+5 vs. +3/+5
The main point is CON. CON trumps STR.
WRT Missile attacks, Khalid's DEX is a very respectable 16 vs. Kivan's
17.
Both STR and DEX can be enhanced with items. Nothing (in BG1) can
enhance CON. An no matter that STR is the 'prime req.' of fighters,
CON is more important.
> If we were to add on Strength-boosting items, Khalid would close the
gap,
Khalid would lap Kivan with the Gauntlets.
> because his biggest weakness currently is his low Strength score.
Also if
> we change weapons Khalid would have an edge, as the Elven +1 bonus
only
> covers Large Swords and Bows in BG1. However, all this maths has at
least
> proven to me why I thought it a good idea to keep Kivan, but work on
his
> sword-wielding skills instead of trying to find him a decent Halberd
in BG1.
>
That's another point. Kivan starts with Bow ** and Spear **. Khalid
starts with LSword ** and Bow & Axe each *.
Coran's a great archer vs. Khalid, with 3 attacks/round @ +5/+3 vs. 2
attacks/round @ +1/+0 (or 3 attacks/round @ +2/+3 if you spend
Khalid's points in Bows). But again, Coran's CON (14 @ +0,
multi-class hp) vs Khalid's CON (17 @ +3, pure Fighter hp) is an
important consideration and AC is comparable as Coran will be using
leather armors while Khalid's strolling around in full plate (even if
Coran's wearing metal armors a DEX of 16 vs 20 is only -2 AC, with
most enemies, even tough enemies, hitting either on a critical).
GB
Derville
> Derville <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:agrv31$q3c$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > * Kivan gets +1/+2 from 2 pips in Large Swords. Khalid gets +3/+4
> from
> > putting 4 pips into that skill.
>
> 4* = +3/+5
My BG1 manual says +3/+4 for 4 pips, and +3/+5 for Grand Mastery only.
> > * Kivan gets the +1 to-hit bonus for being an Elf.
>
> Also: Khalid gets +3 hp/level. Kivan gets nowt.
Erm, real men don't get hit? To be honest, I never even look at
Constitution (except if I'm thinking of taking Kagain to regenerate).
Depending how one wants to play, the spell Save/Reload could be used on
either to ensure good hitpoints (seeing as both can be found very early on,
this can control their development basically from scratch). Not forgetting
that even without this, hitpoint rolls are tricky things to work out (I just
got BG2 up and running here - at present Imoen has more HP than Jaheira in
Irenicus' dungeon, which is a bit strange to say the least).
> > Overall, Khalid would get +3 to hit (weapon mastery, ignoring
> Varscona) and
> > +4 to damage (weapon skill). Kivan would get +3 to hit (Elf bonus +
> > Strength bonus + weapon specialisation) and +5 to damage (Strength
> bonus
> > plus weapon specialisation).
>
> It's the same (see error re: High Mastery). +3/+5 vs. +3/+5
Same comeback: my manual says (why does this sound so bad?) that it's +3/+4
for 4 pips, and +3/+5 for 5 pips. I still haven't installed BG1 back onto
my system, so the manual is really all I have to go on at the moment. Will
something like Infinity Explorer be able to delve into files to get the
exact figures for weapon profiencies?
> The main point is CON. CON trumps STR.
You're just saying that to avoid letting Shar-Teel join in and give Khalid a
god thrashing ;-).
> WRT Missile attacks, Khalid's DEX is a very respectable 16 vs. Kivan's
> 17.
>
> Both STR and DEX can be enhanced with items. Nothing (in BG1) can
> enhance CON. An no matter that STR is the 'prime req.' of fighters,
> CON is more important.
I take it that this is why you also rank Kagain so highly? FWIW, seeing as
I'm rotten when it comes to using potions, I always look to high native
Strength as being of prime importance, level only with Dexterity. Seeing as
it's extremely possible to get AC's of -14 or so in BG1, I tend to neglect
Constitution on the basis that very little is actually going to hit through
my defences, and if they do they won't live long enough to do it more than
once. Seeing as most of the buffing spells in BG1 concentrate on improving
AC and saving throws rather than stats, I may be on the wrong track with
this tactic. I've never had the bloody-mindedness to go back and try
Durlag's Tower again, so it may be that my style may come unstuck against
some of the critters who live in there.
> > because his biggest weakness currently is his low Strength score.
> Also if
> > we change weapons Khalid would have an edge, as the Elven +1 bonus
> only
> > covers Large Swords and Bows in BG1. However, all this maths has at
> least
> > proven to me why I thought it a good idea to keep Kivan, but work on
> his
> > sword-wielding skills instead of trying to find him a decent Halberd
> in BG1.
>
> That's another point. Kivan starts with Bow ** and Spear **. Khalid
> starts with LSword ** and Bow & Axe each *.
If only Kivan had had a better melee pick, things might have been different.
Large Swords is the obvious call, for the Elven bonus, but even something
like Blunt Weapons would have been much more powerful than what he gets
lumbered with by the game. IIRC, there's one +1 Halberd outside BG city,
and not a thing in terms of enchanted Spears.
> Coran's a great archer vs. Khalid, with 3 attacks/round @ +5/+3 vs. 2
> attacks/round @ +1/+0 (or 3 attacks/round @ +2/+3 if you spend
> Khalid's points in Bows). But again, Coran's CON (14 @ +0,
> multi-class hp) vs Khalid's CON (17 @ +3, pure Fighter hp) is an
> important consideration and AC is comparable as Coran will be using
> leather armors while Khalid's strolling around in full plate (even if
> Coran's wearing metal armors a DEX of 16 vs 20 is only -2 AC, with
> most enemies, even tough enemies, hitting either on a critical).
The enemy that lives long enough to engage Coran in melee deserves to have a
chance to hurt him ;-). Coran normally gets the Shadow Armour in my group,
but he has been known to wear heavy armour if I've got a pure Thief to hand
(like Imoen). In that case, his extra Dex bonus would help him notch up a
pretty stellar AC, which again fits in with my BG1 playing style (I call it
my play style, but in truth I haven't touched BG1 in yonks, so my memory's
probably off on a few things). But as I say, anyone who asks Coran to fight
anyone using a melee weapon is probably already using Xan as their main
tank, so this wouldn't really be an important consideration for them ;-).
Kish
>
> "Gebhard Blucher" <g_bl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:uj368p9...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Derville <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:agrv31$q3c$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > * Kivan gets the +1 to-hit bonus for being an Elf.
> >
> > Also: Khalid gets +3 hp/level. Kivan gets nowt.
>
> Erm, real men don't get hit? To be honest, I never even look at
> Constitution (except if I'm thinking of taking Kagain to regenerate).
> Depending how one wants to play, the spell Save/Reload could be used on
> either to ensure good hitpoints (seeing as both can be found very early on,
> this can control their development basically from scratch).
But if that's used on both, Khalid will still have 24 more hit points
than Kivan by the end of the game. That's quite a lot in BG1.
Gebhard Blucher
>
> My BG1 manual says +3/+4 for 4 pips, and +3/+5 for Grand Mastery
only.
>
As another regular in this group would say... in an incredible
surprise move, the manual is incorrect. :-)
BG1's "WSPECIAL.2DA":
2DA V1.0
0
HIT DAMAGE
0 0 0
1 0 0
2 1 2
3 3 3
4 3 5
5 3 5
> Erm, real men don't get hit? To be honest, I never even look at
> Constitution (except if I'm thinking of taking Kagain to
regenerate).
With the low armor classes attainable, characters will take, more or
less, the same number of hits. In this case the ability to take more
of those hits becomes more important.
> You're just saying that to avoid letting Shar-Teel join in and give
Khalid a
> god thrashing ;-).
Shar-Teel's actually very comparable to Coran, if dualed to Thief;
though she'll use throwing knives instead of bows (and be able to get
**** in them too).
GB
Derville
> Derville <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ah1k3b$6nk$4...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > My BG1 manual says +3/+4 for 4 pips, and +3/+5 for Grand Mastery
> only.
> >
>
> As another regular in this group would say... in an incredible
> surprise move, the manual is incorrect. :-)
Is this the part where I have to look surprised? It's just that the shock
of yet another manual irregularity isn't in itself enough to startle me
anymore ;-).
> HIT DAMAGE
> 0 0 0
> 1 0 0
> 2 1 2
> 3 3 3
> 4 3 5
> 5 3 5
So the only benefit to Grand Mastery in BG1 is getting 2 attacks per round
instead of 3/2. Odd, that, because I'd have thunk that GM would be rewarded
a bit more. Also, the BG manual (yes, I'm setting myself up again) alluded
to the possibility that people with no proficiencies would suffer penalties
with weapons, yet the above file doesn't show this. According to that, 1
star has no beneficial effect above no stars at all, which can't be right.
> > Erm, real men don't get hit? To be honest, I never even look at
> > Constitution (except if I'm thinking of taking Kagain to
> regenerate).
>
> With the low armor classes attainable, characters will take, more or
> less, the same number of hits. In this case the ability to take more
> of those hits becomes more important.
If BG1 had a few more levels in it, I would have been able to bring DUHM
into this one (Kivan could get one or two extra points in Str, Con and Dex
with that spell), but Ranger spell progression doesn't come into the BG1
equation. By the end of TOTSC, Rangers and Fighters can hit 8th level,
giving Khalid a potential maximum of (80+24) 104HP, while Kivan can get
80HP. Even allowing for the odd critter with a big right hook, 80HP isn't
all that bad a score. And I tend to find that once an enemy can punch
through my protection, he'll just keep making those shots round after round
until my guy dies. My subscription to the philosophy of do unto others
before they do it unto you means that I'll tak Kivan's good offensive skills
and use those to batter an enemy before I can take too much damage.
> > You're just saying that to avoid letting Shar-Teel join in and give
> Khalid a
> > god thrashing ;-).
>
> Shar-Teel's actually very comparable to Coran, if dualed to Thief;
> though she'll use throwing knives instead of bows (and be able to get
> **** in them too).
I never thought of letting her loose with Throwing Knives, mainly because of
the ammo problems in BG1 (firstly, these weapons aren't growing on trees;
secondly, they don't stack too well). However, she would be interesting in
BG2 with Firetooth and the Boomerang Dagger - say, weren't you talking about
bringing Shar-Teel into BG2? I'm suddenyl liking this idea an awful lot
more (although I'd still kill to be re-united with Coran, human machine gun
extraordinaire).