BG2: Best weapon?
Toni Saari
In your opinion, of course.
Westley Weimer
> In all categories, like best katana/short sword/long sword etc?
> In your opinion, of course.
Wow, this one has been done to death.
SoA & ToB, assume "most improved version" in all cases.
1st 2nd
Katanas: Fury DZB
Flails: Ages Defender
Daggers: Firetooth --boring--
2HS: Carsomyr Vorpal
Halberd: Ravager Dragon's Breath
QS: Magi Ram
Long Swords: Angur --many half-decent +2/+3 ones--
--many people would put Daystar here--
--or Blackrazor--
Bastard: Foebane Jhor
Short: Mask Kundane (does give extra attack)
Hammer: Crom Rune
Crossbow: Firetooth Drow-of-Speed
Axes: K'log Unyielding
Long Bow: Strong Arm Heartseeker
(trust me, damage trumps to hit)
Short Bow: Tuigan Gesen
Slings: Seeking Everard
Spears: Ixil Impaler
Scimitar: Spectral Brand Belm
This was "all-around best". Clearly some weapons are better in special
situations (Psion for flayers, Daystar for undead, Arrows of Slaying for
those darned Ogre Magi groups, Shazz for those Bard invasions).
- Wes
David Green
Westley Weimer <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Toni Saari <toni....@pikabaana.net> wrote:
>> In all categories, like best katana/short sword/long sword etc?
>> In your opinion, of course.
>
>Wow, this one has been done to death.
>
>SoA & ToB, assume "most improved version" in all cases.
I'll go along with most of these. I've got one where I think you missed a
really good one, though:
> 1st 2nd
>Long Swords: Angur --many half-decent +2/+3 ones--
> --many people would put Daystar here--
> --or Blackrazor--
The Answerer. Especially for any
protracted fight. This thing saved
my bacon when dealing with Draconis.
--
Call the Physics Friends Helpline!
Find out about your special density!
Gebhard Blucher
news:9set6k$e8u$1...@tron.sci.fi...
> In all categories, like best katana/short sword/long sword etc?
>
> In your opinion, of course.
>
As Wes implied, this gets done to death. :-)
Anyway, IMO (and am definitely forgetting some):
Axe:
- Unyielding +3/+5
- K'l-ladeedah +4
- Rifthome +3
Bastard Sword:
- Foebane +3/+5
- Tie: Jhor the Bleeder +2 or Purifier +4/+5
- Tie: Albruin +1 or Blade of Searing +3
Club:
- Tie: Blackblood +3 or Club of Detonation +3/+5
- Gnasher +2
- Tie: Root of the Problem +2 or Bone Club +2
Crossbow:
- Firetooth +4/+5
- Crossbow of Speed +1
- Giant Hair (heavy) +3
Dagger:
- Fire Tooth +3
- Dagger of the Star +4/+5
- Boomerang +2
Dart:
- Crimson Dart +3
Flail:
- Flail of Ages +3/+4/+5
- Defender of Easthaven +2
- Ice Star +4
Halberd:
- Ravager +4/+6
- Wave +4
- Dragon's Breath
Katana:
- Celestial Fury +3
- Hindo's Doooooom +3/+4
- Tie: Malakar +2 or Dak'kon Zerth Blade
Long Bow:
- Strong Arm +2
- Heart Seeker +3
- Darkfire +4/+5
Long Sword:
- Tie: Answerer +4 or Blackrazor +3
- An-groovy-dal +4/+5
- Equalizer +3
Mace:
- Stormstar +3/+5
- Mace of Disruption +1/+2
- Skullcrusher +3
Quarterstaff:
- Tie: Staff of the Magi +1 or Staff of the Ram +4/+6 or Staff of the
Woodlands +4
- Tie: Staff of Rhynn +4 or Staff of Thunder & Lightning +2 or Staff
of Power +2 or Staff of Arundel +2
- Tie: Staff of Command +2 or Staff of Earth/Fire/Air +2
Scimitar:
- Spectral Brand +3/+4 or Scarlet Ninja-To +3
- Tie: Belm +2 or Usuno's Blade +4 or Yamoto +4
- Kachico's +3 or
Shortbow:
- Tie: Gesen +4 or Tugian +1
- Tasheron's +3
- Tie: all the rest
Short Sword:
- Mask +4/+5
- Kundane +2
- Arbane's +2
Sling:
- Erinne +4/+5
- Arvoreen +4
- Tie: Everard +5 or Arla's Dragonbane +3
Spear:
- Tie: Impaler +3 or Ixil's Spke +6
- Withering +4
- Tie: Ixil's Nail +4 or Kuldahar +3
Two-Handed Sword:
- Carsomyr +5/+6
- Tie: Gram +5 or Psion's +5 or Soul Reaver +4 or Silver Sword +3
- Tie: Warblade +4 or Lilarcor +3
GB
Westley Weimer
> As Wes implied, this gets done to death. :-)
But it's still fun!
> - Tie: Blackblood +3 or Club of Detonation +3/+5
> - Gnasher +2
Detonation is definitely a specialty item. A "very special episode" sort of
item.
> - Wave +4
> - Dragon's Breath
You'd put Wave above Dragon? Why? :-) Not only do you get it later but it
does less damage and less elemental damage. I might keep Wave around to
kill a Burning Man in ToB, but that makes it a specialty item compared to
the all-around useful DB +4.
> - Hindo's Doooooom +3/+4
> - Tie: Malakar +2 or Dak'kon Zerth Blade
Hindo should have used Fury. DZB easily trounces Doom +3 -- come on, buy a
scroll of restoration. AC and Acuity are not to be sneezed at, and you can
have it *early*. I'd even put it above Doom +4 -- who will use Doom +4?
Maybe Valygar, if for some reason he's not using (CF and CF) or (CF &
Some-Other-Useful-Weapon). But even a PC specialized in Katanas by that
point knows how to use another weapon, and since Fury trumps Doom, Doom
never gets used (e.g., Fury + Faeyr is a better choice than Fury + Doom).
OTOH, many fighter/mage PCs actually use DZB. It's especially popular with
the Kensai/Mage.
> Sling:
> - Erinne +4/+5
> - Arvoreen +4
> - Tie: Everard +5 or Arla's Dragonbane +3
Woo, what's going on here? :-) +5 missile damage is non-trivial, but the
damage from Seeking can be much greater (+6 with 18/00 STR). Why would you
put any of these over Seeking?
- Wes
James Coulter
"Westley Weimer" <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9sfja6$1vh4> > Sling:
> > - Erinne +4/+5
> > - Arvoreen +4
> > - Tie: Everard +5 or Arla's Dragonbane +3
>
> Woo, what's going on here? :-) +5 missile damage is non-trivial, but the
> damage from Seeking can be much greater (+6 with 18/00 STR). Why would you
> put any of these over Seeking?
>
The Sling of Everard in it's current form is bugged, it actually does add
Str bonus too.
Htn963
>Gebhard Blucher wrote:
> > Sling:
> > - Erinne +4/+5
> > - Arvoreen +4
> > - Tie: Everard +5 or Arla's Dragonbane +3
>
> Woo, what's going on here? :-) +5 missile damage is non-trivial, but the
> damage from Seeking can be much greater (+6 with 18/00 STR). Why would you
> put any of these over Seeking?
>
> - Wes
Yep, in my experience, a difference in +2-3 to hit for slings
become fast negligible in the latter stage of SOA/TOB. OTOH, the
strength bonus damage of Seeking retains its potency throughout the
entire game, especially when you get all them 21+ strength belts in
TOB.
--
Ht
Toni Saari
Where can I get those or are they ToB-only? I dont remember seeing them
before.
Gebhard Blucher
Htn963 <Htn...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:d12cac0f.01110...@posting.google.com...
>
> Yep, in my experience, a difference in +2-3 to hit for slings
> become fast negligible in the latter stage of SOA/TOB. OTOH, the
> strength bonus damage of Seeking retains its potency throughout the
> entire game, especially when you get all them 21+ strength belts in
> TOB.
>
Did you know that ALL magical sling bullets give the STR damage bonus?
So unless you use non-magical sling bullets a lot, the Sling of
Seeking is no better than any other sling +2. (Just discovered this
myself not too long ago. Checked in the editors, and sure enough,
they all give STR bonuses -- even the Bags of Plenty in ToB). Must be
a very old and un-noticed bug. I think I'll inform Kevin Dorner so he
can ruin everyone's fun. ;-) (j/k)
GB
Gebhard Blucher
> Detonation is definitely a specialty item. A "very special episode"
sort of
> item.
>
Sure. I personally hate the weapon, but if a player is willing to
work it in, it's not bad at all. Too much trouble, IMO, but then
clubs don't have much on the high end.
> You'd put Wave above Dragon? Why? :-) Not only do you get it later
but it
> does less damage and less elemental damage. I might keep Wave around
to
> kill a Burning Man in ToB, but that makes it a specialty item
compared to
> the all-around useful DB +4.
>
You're right. Don't know what I was thinking. :-) They definitely
should be switched.
> Hindo should have used Fury. DZB easily trounces Doom +3 -- come on,
buy a
> scroll of restoration. AC and Acuity are not to be sneezed at, and
you can
> have it *early*. I'd even put it above Doom +4 -- who will use Doom
+4?
> Maybe Valygar, if for some reason he's not using (CF and CF) or (CF
&
> Some-Other-Useful-Weapon). But even a PC specialized in Katanas by
that
> point knows how to use another weapon, and since Fury trumps Doom,
Doom
> never gets used (e.g., Fury + Faeyr is a better choice than Fury +
Doom).
> OTOH, many fighter/mage PCs actually use DZB. It's especially
popular with
> the Kensai/Mage.
>
Usually I lumped the un-upgraded and upgraded versions together (too
lazy to class one differently than the other -- though I made an
exception for Ixil's Nail & Spike). But DBZ is just lousy, IMO, I
hate it if I have a magic-user type using it (because you have to weld
it to the character's hand). Doom +4 is actually pretty good, IMO,
and I wasn't really concerned about how soon a weapon becomes
available (that's more relevant when comparing weapon types... if
someone is determined to have a club wielding barbarian then they are
going to want clubs).
> Woo, what's going on here? :-) +5 missile damage is non-trivial, but
the
> damage from Seeking can be much greater (+6 with 18/00 STR). Why
would you
> put any of these over Seeking?
>
Okay let's say you have Jaheira with the Hill Giant girdle
(double-checked with editors).
Everard +5
THAC0: +5 (sling) +1 (spec.) +2 (dex) = +8
DAMAGE: 1d4+2 (base) +2 (spec.) +7 (str -- removed w/Baldurash) = 15
max. (8 w/Baldurash patch)
Arvoreen +4 w/sling bullets +2
THAC0: +4 (sling) +1 (spec.) +2 (dex) +2 (bullet) = +9
DAMAGE: 1d4+3 (base) +4 (sling) +2 (spec.) +7 (str -- see my earlier
post) = 20 max.
The fact that STR damage bonuses are given to ALL magical sling
bullets makes slings pretty nifty and the Sling of Seeking redundant
if you aren't using magical bullets (I'm not quite sure if STR THAC0
bonuses apply so I didn't include them). The Errine +5 w/+4 bullets
would be even better, obviously, than Arvoreen +4 w/+2 bullets, i.e.
+11 THAC0 & 23 max damage.
Note: you CAN use sling bullets with Everard but it doesn't work as
well as, for instance, using arrows with the Gesen & Tansheron or
bolts with the Firetooth crossbow -- IF you use any sort of script; it
just doesn't work for some reason (I've tested it quite a bit and it's
baffling). Personally, unless I'm soloing, I must have some kind of
script controlling my characters (even if it's the simple aGen &
aRange), else I would go mad. ;-) So hopefully you can see why I
place Everard lower than the others (though still in a respectable
third).
GB
Marvael
If he can put the fix in, I can take it out again, if I wouldn't want
it. ;=) (no kidding of course)
--
Marvael
MSN Messenger:
NoJunkPlease...@hetnet.nl
(Remove NoJunkPlease.)
The essence of a paradox:
This message does not have a .sig
Westley Weimer
> But DBZ is just lousy, IMO, I hate it if I have a magic-user type using
> it (because you have to weld it to the character's hand).
This is annoying, but why would you take it off? Any magic use that can use
it is some part fighter. And you should have at least burning hands to kill
trolls. Either it's your initial weapon or it's your off-hand weapon.
I'd give "inconvenient". But I cannot see my way to "lousy". The AC bonus is
too nice for Kensai, the extra spells are too nice for low-level or solo
casters. Malakar is "lousy". DZB is very potent.
> Okay let's say you have Jaheira with the Hill Giant girdle
> (double-checked with editors).
OK, these are all good. I'll answer all of the "sling bullets are buggy and
give STR damage even though they should not" posts hanging over me in one
swell foop:
:: I don't consider that because it's clearly a bug. ::
For the same reason that I don't list Azuredge as the best Axe, I wouldn't
list some other mystery sling as the best sling just because you can get
uber damage with it using +1 bullets. It just so happens that Kevin has
fixed one and not the other. They're both bugs.
Slings are nice because clerics and druids can use them. Aside from that
they're mostly pathetic. The ROF is lower than bows, the ammo is lossy
and outside of Seeking you cannot/should-not be able to apply your STR
bonus. You can use them with a shield, that's good (but see also daggers
and darts).
You can easily paint this as esoteric hair-splitting ... but the original
questions were often about an abstract valuation of the weapons. In the
abstract I'm happy to use intentions and disregard bugs and typos.
> The fact that STR damage bonuses are given to ALL magical sling
> bullets makes slings pretty nifty
Sure. Azuredge's 3d6 damage makes it pretty nifty too. Keldorn's armor is
pretty nifty because Monks and FMTs can wear it. Valygar's Katana is lossy
because he cannot backstab with it. Or not.
> Note: you CAN use sling bullets with Everard but it doesn't work as
> well as, for instance, using arrows with the Gesen & Tansheron or
This is good to know, thanks for the tip.
- Wes
Jeremiah
Westley Weimer <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> spake thusly:
> Gebhard Blucher <g_bl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> But DBZ is just lousy, IMO, I hate it if I have a magic-user type using
>> it (because you have to weld it to the character's hand).
>
> This is annoying, but why would you take it off?
Maybe to use ranged weapons?
Htn963
> Htn963 <Htn...@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:d12cac0f.01110...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Yep, in my experience, a difference in +2-3 to hit for slings
> > become fast negligible in the latter stage of SOA/TOB. OTOH, the
> > strength bonus damage of Seeking retains its potency throughout the
> > entire game, especially when you get all them 21+ strength belts in
> > TOB.
> >
>
> Did you know that ALL magical sling bullets give the STR damage bonus?
No, I didn't! GB strikes again! This would explain my
observation that sling users seemed to be doing inordinately high
damage in TOB.
> So unless you use non-magical sling bullets a lot, the Sling of
> Seeking is no better than any other sling +2. (Just discovered this
> myself not too long ago.
Well, _I_ probaby would have never noticed it in TOB: I usually
have Viconia use the Sling of Everald, which, of course, doesn't
require bullets; and Jaheira, who is the default wielder of Seeking,
rarely ever needed to use it as she's nearly always meleeing in the
front line.
Checked in the editors, and sure enough,
> they all give STR bonuses -- even the Bags of Plenty in ToB). Must be
> a very old and un-noticed bug. I think I'll inform Kevin Dorner so he
> can ruin everyone's fun. ;-) (j/k)
Perhaps we should name this "Blucher's BB Bug," eh?
> GB
--
Ht
Jesse Yeager
and
> give STR damage even though they should not" posts hanging over me in one
> swell foop:
>
> :: I don't consider that because it's clearly a bug. ::
But it is a bug that causes the game to conform to AD&D rules. I will take
any such bug on principles.
Sierro
was:
ToB only.
--
Sierro
Official Monkey Leader
Rebel Without a Clue
icq #7362367
Gebhard Blucher
All are ToB/Watcher's Keep items.
GB
Gebhard Blucher
[snips]
> This is annoying, but why would you take it off? Any magic use that
can use
> it is some part fighter. And you should have at least burning hands
to kill
> trolls. Either it's your initial weapon or it's your off-hand
weapon.
>
> I'd give "inconvenient". But I cannot see my way to "lousy". The AC
bonus is
> too nice for Kensai, the extra spells are too nice for low-level or
solo
> casters. Malakar is "lousy". DZB is very potent.
>
The only character I can see purchasing it for is a dual/multi F/M
type, I certainly wouldn't buy it for Valygar (he's better of using CF
and would only benefit from the +1 AC). The extra spells are lost as
soon as you switch to a missile weapon, and missile weapons are too
vital to my normal tactics (the main reason I never have characters
dual-wield: they get blasted too often by friendly fireballs, don't
benefit from my usual summoned monster 'screen', and generally are the
first characters to die in tough fights).
> OK, these are all good. I'll answer all of the "sling bullets are
buggy and
> give STR damage even though they should not" posts hanging over me
in one
> swell foop:
>
> :: I don't consider that because it's clearly a bug. ::
>
In that case no one should consider the STR bonus from throwing axes:
it also clearly a bug (since, according to Bladurash & Dave G., none
of the thrown weapons are supposed to give STR bonuses). A lot of the
items in the game are bugged, some benefit characters and some benefit
monsters, but weren't fixed with the last BG2 (ToB) patch so, IMO,
they should be taken as the are in the game.
GB
Westley Weimer
> The only character I can see purchasing it for is a dual/multi F/M
> type,
Of course.
> I certainly wouldn't buy it for Valygar (he's better of using CF and
> would only benefit from the +1 AC). The extra spells are lost as soon as
> you switch to a missile weapon, and missile weapons are too vital to my
> normal tactics (the main reason I never have characters dual-wield: they
> get blasted too often by friendly fireballs, don't benefit from my usual
> summoned monster 'screen', and generally are the first characters to die
> in tough fights).
;-) Interesting play style. I go for dual-wielding at least half the
time. Most of my characters start out with one weapon and a shield and
gradually work up to dual-wielding once they have ** in it.
> In that case no one should consider the STR bonus from throwing axes:
> it also clearly a bug (since, according to Bladurash & Dave G., none
> of the thrown weapons are supposed to give STR bonuses).
Ah, that was news to me. I had always somehow assumed that they gave axes
the STR in some vague insight into physics (momentum) or game balance
(daggers and darts get high ROF, axes get high damage). However, it would
appear that they're just inept all around:
(1) how much damage do two-handers do? 1d10? 1d12? do they know?
(2) is defender +2 or +3?
(3) how hard is it to match the description to the reality? (kundane?)
I've heard the excuse that there were thousands of bugs fixed before they
even released the program ... but it's really no excuse in my eyes. The
item descriptions are specifically what the users see. It would have
taken someone working there less than a day to exhaustively check all
player-viewable equipment against its actual stats and bring up any
inconsistencies with the design team (e.g., "do we really want to disallow
STR bonuses for some obscure reason?").
> A lot of the items in the game are bugged,
Amen to that.
Having seen/done creature creation, item creation, spell creation, script
writing, etc., all using *third party tools*, my conclusion is that it is
*not actually that hard*. CS graduates who have taken a class in operating
systems (for race conditions and deadlocks) should not have had too
many problems writing ``correct'' scripts for the game. Some people taken
at random from the local card/board game club could have contributed good
ideas for what the AI should actually try to accomplish. A copy-editor
hired by the hour could have found all of the item bugs.
The game is big. But it's not that big. And it's modular! Most of the areas
and scripts are self-contained (from a correctness-checking perspective).
The story was quite well done. The plot is nice. The character development
is nice. Why is everything else so riddled with pervasive holes? The
conclusion I keep running into is that they ran out of time or resources.
It's easy to criticize in hindsight. I like this game. But as time goes by
the flaws become more and more evident.
- Wes
Example: Off the top of my head, Gaul, Amaunator's Avatar, and the Face
That Takes The Hand of Dace all suffer from race conditions. Having the
Jaheira Bandit plot occur after sleeping on the steps of the Watcher's Keep
locks the game in cutscene mode (as the bandits try forever to walk to
you). These are all conceptual concurrency errors.
Gebhard Blucher
> ;-) Interesting play style. I go for dual-wielding at least half the
> time. Most of my characters start out with one weapon and a shield
and
> gradually work up to dual-wielding once they have ** in it.
>
I'd go for dual-weilding more if the interface didn't make it such a
pain. I can't understand why they didn't set it up so that you could
easily switch between shield, bow, dual-weild etc. without having to
do the inventory shuffle. :-/
I'm imagining some overworked junior designer having to make several
hundred items per day for several weeks. Some of it I can wave away
by considering it a house rule but the number of small errors are
staggering. In addition to the bugs, I think game balance could've
stood some improvement. For instance:
- Project Image is grossly overpowered. The spell in the game isn't
anything like the spell in the PHB.
- Why have so many powerful undead enemies (liches, vampires, etc.)
and then castrate them with a plentiful supply of Protection from
Undead scrolls?
- Whose great idea was it to have so many grossly overpowered items
available so soon and with little trouble? The Flail of Ages and
Celestial Fury come to mind. Balanced items, by way of comparison,
are Crom Faeyr and the Equalizer, IMO.
- (Greater) Whirlwind. Something's wrong when a special ability is so
good that others aren't worth choosing.
- Dual Wielding (again :-). Too powerful given the number items with
'always on' special abilities (though it is a pain as I mentioned
above). Forget Drizzit, off-hand weapons, IMO, should've been limited
to daggers, short swords, and wazi-whatevers with main hand weapons
limited to swords and daggers. Dual-wielding clubs, maces,
war-hammers and axes, just seems silly.
- Color Spray. In P&P, this is a good spell -- a worthy alternative
to the all-mighty magic missile, but its implementation in the game
makes it useless.
- And more, I could go on forever. I do still like the game a lot
though. :-)
> Example: Off the top of my head, Gaul, Amaunator's Avatar, and the
Face
> That Takes The Hand of Dace all suffer from race conditions.
What's this?
> Having the
> Jaheira Bandit plot occur after sleeping on the steps of the
Watcher's Keep
> locks the game in cutscene mode (as the bandits try forever to walk
to
> you). These are all conceptual concurrency errors.
I'm fairly forgiving of most of these kinds of bugs, but much less so
with what I consider to be play-balance blunders. Another for
instance: it seems obvious to me that the designers were afraid that
high level magic users would be too powerful, as they are possibly in
P&P, but I think they overcompensated. Does _every_ meaningful enemy
have to have high MR, and immunities to most spells? You have to
really work at making a magic user more than a supporting player in
this game who does little more than cast 'buffs' and breach (it can be
done, but options are limited and you have to really know your spells
and monsters).
Oh well, enough useless griping for me. :-)
GB
Westley Weimer
> I'd go for dual-weilding more if the interface didn't make it such a
> pain. I can't understand why they didn't set it up so that you could
> easily switch between shield, bow, dual-weild etc. without having to
> do the inventory shuffle. :-/
I quite agree. Nethack fails this litmus test, ADOM passes it.
> I'm imagining some overworked junior designer having to make several
> hundred items per day for several weeks.
That would be lovely, except that the total number of items in the game
(you can check this by counting page-downs in Infinity Explorer) is around
500 (+- 25). :-) And not all of those are player-visible. Even giving each
item a one-minute check would take less than 9 person-hours.
Just today, for example, I noticed a bug in the mind flayer tentacle
suck attack (mindflay.itm). It's supposed to display the string:
"<ACTOR> - Devour Brain"
on every hit (to go with the -5 INT) but for some reason they have the
message on a 300 second delay. So it shows up 5 minutes after the strike,
if the mind flayer is still alive (or something, basically, you never see
it, and if you do it's confusing). You can test this by getting hit and
pressing Ctrl-T -- the message will suddenly appear when you advance time.
Just walking over the item powers in IEEP made this obvious. I'm beginning
to think that they didn't have any code reviews.
> the number of small errors [is] staggering.
I quite agree.
> In addition to the bugs, I think game balance could've stood some
> improvement.
Well, that's a matter for another day. I'm of two minds on this, see below.
> - Project Image is grossly overpowered. The spell in the game isn't
> anything like the spell in the PHB.
Newsflash! :-) Ba-roken.
> - Why have so many powerful undead enemies (liches, vampires, etc.)
> and then castrate them with a plentiful supply of Protection from
> Undead scrolls?
!? Where did this "protection from undead" scroll idea come from anyway?
Some perverse desire to make "turn undead" even less useful than it already
is? Between healing potions and pro-undead scrolls, even non-master players
can get away without clerics.
> - Whose great idea was it to have so many grossly overpowered items
> available so soon and with little trouble? The Flail of Ages and
> Celestial Fury come to mind. Balanced items, by way of comparison,
> are Crom Faeyr and the Equalizer, IMO.
I'm actually OK with Ages, since there's a dopey quest associated with it
and no one takes flails and (be honest) the first time you see it you don't
think it's that powerful (your first time through the game you probably
don't understnad that savethrows and stoneskin are everything and that the
flail bypasses both).
Fury is another matter. Hey, I have a new project: new AI scripts for the
Guarded Compound. That'll give me something to kill time on this weekend
while I recover from the sore throat of doom and despair.
As an aside, I personally consider the Equalizer to be way underpowered
(right up there with the Wave Halberd).
> - (Greater) Whirlwind. Something's wrong when a special ability is so
> good that others aren't worth choosing.
Time Trap is so much more abusive, though. Improved Haste can get you 10
attacks for longer (use belm or kundane in the off-hand).
> - Dual Wielding (again :-). Too powerful given the number items with
> 'always on' special abilities (though it is a pain as I mentioned
> above). Forget Drizzit, off-hand weapons, IMO, should've been limited
> to daggers, short swords, and wazi-whatevers with main hand weapons
> limited to swords and daggers.
I agree with this.
> Dual-wielding clubs, maces, war-hammers and axes, just seems silly.
Well, realism is realism and AD&D is AD&D and never the twain shall meet
...
Dual clubs isn't unreasonable if they're small -- think Phillipino stick
fighting or add a chain to make stereotypical nunchaku. But your point is
well taken. I cannot even lunge with the one sword I own without ending up
off balance. Both the weight and the length are important because holding a
weapon up involves a serious amount of torque. Just because you can easily
carry a 20 pound backpack on your shoulders does not mean that you can
easily fight with two 5 pound swords.
> - Color Spray. In P&P, this is a good spell -- a worthy alternative
> to the all-mighty magic missile, but its implementation in the game
> makes it useless.
Yeah, a bunch of the spells are like that. Whenever I design a game I try
to go through all of the options in it and take out all of the ones I would
never use. If there's some tactic that I always find myself favoring I
either remove it or make the others more like it (or somesuch).
> - And more, I could go on forever. I do still like the game a lot
> though. :-)
:-) As do I.
>> Example: Off the top of my head, Gaul, Amaunator's Avatar, and the Face
>> That Takes The Hand of Dace all suffer from race conditions.
> What's this?
"What's a race condition?"
In computer science, we say that a concurrent program has a race
condition if two threads of control access the same data in such a
manner that the final outcome depends on the scheduler.
Metaphorically, the two pieces of code "race" to touch the data. A
race condition almost always indicates a conceptual error in the
program (or the system).
I'm using the term here very broadly. Imagine a script that's supposed to
talk to the PC once and give out some XP. If you can "click really fast"
and get the thing to give you the XP twice, there's a race condition. Gual,
Amaunator's Avatar and the Face can all be "tricked" into giving the
player multiple XP awards by exploiting race conditions. Defensive script
(and dialogue) programming could have fixed this.
If you've never seen any of these, here's one to try: Get the rift device
part, go back up to Gaul. Talk to Tad, whatever. Don't go into Zombie-land.
Talk to Gaul and say you have the rift device part. He'll give you 70K XP
and whatnot. *Pause the game immediately* and talk to Gaul again. He'll
give you 70K XP again, etc. You can usually repeat this 8 times if you're
fast.
What's [an approximation to what's] going on? Clicking on Gaul the first
time to talk to him [apparently] adds "face me ; wait(6)" to his action
queue. His dialogue contains the commands "giveXP(70K) ; enemy()". The
first command is an instant, to it happens right away. The enemy() one gets
queued (or somesuch). The game designer thinks: since he's no an enemy, you
cannot talk to him again. However, "wait(6)" is still on his queue, so you
can "race" in there and talk to him again before he executes enemy() and
get the award twice.
>> Having the Jaheira Bandit plot occur after sleeping on the steps of the
> I'm fairly forgiving of most of these kinds of bugs,
I am absolutely not. That sort of bug locks up the game -- if you haven't
saved recently you've lost time from your life (a finite source) and gained
frustration. If the game isn't well-balanced you won't play a second time
(or whatnot) -- but at least it will be an informed decision. Game-crashing
bugs take things out of your hands. I find them much more frustrating.
> but much less so with what I consider to be play-balance blunders.
Rage against play-balance blunders is much more diffuse -- you only really
notice them your second or third time through.
> Another for instance: it seems obvious to me that the designers were
> afraid that high level magic users would be too powerful, as they are
> possibly in P&P, but I think they overcompensated.
... and as a result, melee wins. Sigh.
> Does _every_ meaningful enemy have to have high MR, and immunities to
> most spells?
I feel your pain.
> Oh well, enough useless griping for me. :-)
:-)
- Wes
Gebhard Blucher
>
> I quite agree. Nethack fails this litmus test, ADOM passes it.
>
How is ADOM anyway? I played around with Angband before (several
varieties) and, while I don't like to think I'm spoiled, couldn't get
around the terrible 'interface'. Even after installing a graphical
front-end I could never figure out how to even do the most basic
things. It was like trying to use pine to read email and newsgroups.
:-)
GB
Mike Franklin
spoilers?.....
[snip]
> I'm actually OK with Ages, since there's a dopey quest associated with it
> and no one takes flails and (be honest) the first time you see it you don't
> think it's that powerful (your first time through the game you probably
> don't understnad that savethrows and stoneskin are everything and that the
> flail bypasses both).
You're right. This is my first time through, and I don't see what the
big deal is with The Flail of Ages. Is it because it hits 3 times,
taking away 3 stoneskins? I don't see how it bypasses saving throws,
though.
Mike
Kish
You don't get to save against the Slow affect.
--
Kish
ICQ# 28085879
AIM Kish K M
Jonathan Ellis
Mike Franklin wrote in message
<3ed3f844.01120...@posting.google.com>...
I think the point may be that the *extra* damage it does - +1 fire
damage, +1 cold damage, +1 acid damage - may bypass stoneskins (is this
true or not?) Which means that it can damaged "stoneskinned"
spellcasters and disrupt their spells, if this is true. I haven't tried
it to confirm it, but my main character (a paladin) is carrying it as
his spare weapon, behind Lilarcor. (Yes, right, I haven't got Carsomyr
yet.) Minsc, meanwhile, has the Mace of Disruption and another big heavy
2-handed Sword +2.
Also notice that this extra damage is *in addition* to the standard
+3 enchantment of the weapon. Thus, for each head you attach to the
Flail, you get 2 extra points of damage - 1 of plain magic damage (also
increases the enchantment of the weapon), and one of whichever element
is associated with the flail head you attached. I believe a normal flail
is 1d6+1: the fully-upgraded (for SoA) Flail of Ages with all three
heads is 1d6+4, *plus* three extra points of various different elemental
types of damage, and can hit monsters that can only be hit by +3 or
better weapons. (Notably, iron and adamantite golems. And, being a blunt
weapon, it can also hurt clay golems.) The chance of slowing the enemy
is also nice.
The really interesting thing is that you can find two more heads
(lightning and poison) in ToB and attach *them* as well (not at
De'Arnise Keep, which you can't reach any more, but in your own pocket
plane in Hell.) And when you attach the fifth head, then all the
elemental-based damage is doubled - in addition to being a standard +5
flail, it does *2* rather than 1 extra points, *each*, of fire, cold,
lightning, acid and poison damage (for a possible damage bonus of +15
per hit, minus two for each one of five types of damage that your enemy
is immune to - he almost certainly won't be immune to the lot) according
to the BG2 site on GameBanshee, which is currently the best spoiler
site.
Jonathan.