Finished BGII with WeiDU mods (SPOILERS)
Moonfruit
Ease-of-Use, Item Upgrades, Spell Level 50, Valen, Ascension; all
components), I have decided to share my thoughts with you guys.
Firstly my party. I created a multiplayer party with the following:
(1) Half-Orc Anti-Paladin with 19, 18, 19, 3, 13, 17 wielding Celestial Fury
+5 and Sanchuuduko(?) +4/Holy Buckler of Amunautor(?)
(2) Elf Sorcerer with 10, 18, 16, 10, 10, 18 wielding SotM/Staff of
Elemental Mastery +5
(3) Elf Archer with 18/85, 19, 17, 10, 14, 10 wielding Gesen/Foebane
(4) Human Berserker (9)/Cleric with 12, 18, 18, 10, 18, 10 wielding FoA +5
and MoD +2/Stormstar +5
(5) Human Kensai (13)/Thief with 18/00, 18, 18, 10, 10, 10 wielding Daystar
+4/Angurvadal +5 and Sword of Mask
(6) Half-Orc Barbarian with 19, 18, 19, 10, 10, 10 wielding Frostreaver/AoU
+5 and Crom Faeyr
I must say that I had very little problems with most of the encounter (Imp.
Bodhi and Mae'Var were walkovers, Koroisan was pretty easy too, The Ravager
was medium), but there were a few places I struggled:
1) Imp. Underwater City - these guys are DAMN irritating (I did not have
Shield of Reflection), and my most common tactic was Invisible, Greator
Malison, Finger of Death, repeat twice, rest.
2) Imp. Irenicus final encounter - I think Wes went all out here cause this
battle is probably THE MOST DIFFICULT I have EVER seen!!!!! Forced to
uninstall it.
3) Imp. Abazigal - not really too hard, but I was left with only my PC and
Sorc (so the rest didn't get XP), and didn't feel like doing it again (NWN
was waiting)
4) Final Battle (Amelyssan) - one tough cookie. Facing the Five is alright,
but facing the Five TOGETHER is just a bit too much. Uninstalled it.
Those were the major problems. A few areas I was dissappointed in:
1) The Dragons - Wes you tried, but the Dragons are still pathetically easy
(although the Yellow Dragon remains unbeaten)
2) Guarded Compound and Twisted Rune - after everything I read I was
expecting hell, but they were actually pretty basic.
All in all, a definite improvement to the game, though I thin it was the
Weapon Upgrades that made the game too easy. Should actually try all the
mods with the original items (but IWDII and NWN call louder each minute)
I must praise Wes on his work. For all the time and effort he (and others)
put into the mods to improve the game for us, the loyal players.
Thanx Wes, and my you continue helping us, the less talented ones.
Westley Weimer
> components), I have decided to share my thoughts with you guys.
Thanks for your comments.
> Firstly my party. I created a multiplayer party with the following:
Unfortunately, this makes it impossible for us to take some of what you
will say later without a grain of salt.
> [ Snip List of Perfect 86-Point Demigods, all but one of whom were
> some-part fighter or archer ]
Without reading any further, you're going to find everything in the game
way too easy.
> I must say that I had very little problems with most of the encounter (Imp.
I must say that I am not at all surprised. That party could walk through
BG2 in its sleep. :-)
> 2) Imp. Irenicus final encounter - I think Wes went all out here cause this
> battle is probably THE MOST DIFFICULT I have EVER seen!!!!! Forced to
> uninstall it.
I'm surprised that you had problems with it. Most people find a tactic that
works within five trials, and there are quite a few "here's how I did it"
things posted around.
> 4) Final Battle (Amelyssan) - one tough cookie. Facing the Five is alright,
> but facing the Five TOGETHER is just a bit too much. Uninstalled it.
If I may read between the lines here, I think your uber-party was actually
doing you harm here:
I predict that you got used to "coasting" through SoA on autopilot with
those uber-guys getting 4 or 5 attacks per round with their super weapons.
When you get to some fight where either obscure tactics are required (imp
iren) or there are just soo many strong opponents that you can be worn down
(imp sahu, final battle) you found yourself out of practice with devious
tactics.
> 1) The Dragons - Wes you tried, but the Dragons are still pathetically easy
The dragons are smarter, not tougher. Since I restriced myself to just
making their scripts make better choices (no new powers), there really
wasn't all that much I could do. The main point of the smarter dragons is
that they prevent you from taking down Firkraag with a level 9 party and
claiming Carso way too early. A level 15 party won't see a big difference
between Imp Fir and Norm Fir.
However, I must concede your point: the smarter dragons are not all that
much beefier than the normal dragons.
> (although the Yellow Dragon remains unbeaten)
See above about devious tactics.
> 2) Guarded Compound and Twisted Rune - after everything I read I was
> expecting hell, but they were actually pretty basic.
With your party, I'm not surprised. Imp GC is supposed to stop level 8
characters straight out of Chateau Irenicus from grabbing CF. If you were
more advanced when you got there, your demigods would not have noticed a
really difference between the normal gc crew and the imp gc crew -- both
would be speedbumps under your heels.
> All in all, a definite improvement to the game, though I thin it was the
> Weapon Upgrades that made the game too easy.
If I may be so bold as to countermand you, I think it was your party. The
strength of the weapon upgrades is multiplied by the number of attacks you
get per round. Your people were all perfectly-dualled fighters or archers
or whatnot, getting massive attacks per round. In the hands of a
grandmaster fighter, Skullcrusher +5 is a weapon of vast death. In the
hands of Viconia, it's not really all that different from Mauler +2,
because she never hits anyway and she only strikes once per round. If you
had Celestial Fury, Valygar and Yoshimo, to whom would you give the blade?
Same reasoning.
> I must praise Wes on his work. For all the time and effort he (and others)
> put into the mods to improve the game for us, the loyal players.
Thank you for your kind words.
If it is any consolation, I personally find all of the wes mods too easy as
well. However, I think that you really doomed yourself from a playability
perspective by making a party of gods. If it had been You, Jaheira, Imoen,
etc., you would have found the improved fights much harder and the weapon
upgrades much less unbalancing.
Have fun with IWD2. Keep us posted.
- Wes
Moses
"Westley Weimer" <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:ao7bdr$6mv$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Westley Weimer
> Hissssssssss. Beware the wrath of Weimer.
I'm having trouble interpreting this. Both Weimer and his mods try to avoid
being "wrathful", despite what you may have heard about Kuroisan. :-)
Presumably you are either suggesting that the Weimer mods are too tough
(which would be a nice counterpoint to Moonfruit) or that Weimer himself
is too tough, an inference that one might well draw from some of my other
comments (especially on mod usability and wide audiences) but which I have
trouble drawing from the polite message here:
> "Westley Weimer" <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>> Thanks for your comments.
>> ...
>> However, I must concede your point: the smarter dragons are not all that
>> much beefier than the normal dragons.
>> ...
>> If I may be so bold as to countermand you,
>> ...
>> Thank you for your kind words.
>> ...
>> I personally find all of the wes mods too easy as well
>> ...
>> Have fun with IWD2. Keep us posted.
At any rate,
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this (and all is mended),
I'm curious to hear what you meant.
- Wes
Moses
"Westley Weimer" <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:aob2dr$1948$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
bruc...@alumni.princeton.edu
>
> Moses <possi...@notverylikely.com> wrote:
> > Hissssssssss. Beware the wrath of Weimer.
>
> I'm having trouble interpreting this. Both Weimer and his mods try to avoid
> being "wrathful", despite what you may have heard about Kuroisan. :-)
>
> Presumably you are either suggesting that the Weimer mods are too tough
> (which would be a nice counterpoint to Moonfruit) or that Weimer himself
> is too tough, an inference that one might well draw from some of my other
> comments (especially on mod usability and wide audiences) but which I have
> trouble drawing from the polite message here:
Nah, I think our prophet Moses is referring to the way you
responded to Moonfruit ... "your party was too powerful".
*shrug* At least that's how I read it.
Bruce
Westley Weimer
> Nah, I think our prophet Moses is referring to the way you
> responded to Moonfruit ... "your party was too powerful".
> *shrug* At least that's how I read it.
Fair enough. His party was too powerful to feel the sting of most improved
enemies. If you are using optimal tactics (e.g., you go for the strong
weapons early on, you have complete foreknowledge, you order the quests
perfectly, you know just what spell to use in every situtation, that kind
of thing) it is actually hard to come up with a weak enough party for the
game to keep you constantly on your feet. If you have played the game
before and you start a new game ... and get to, say, level 13, you're
basically guaranteed smooth sailing for the rest of the game.
I've struggled with this, but I'm not sure there's anything you can do here
with a non-random game using the Infinity Engine to address this problem.
- Wes
Badbark
time and have to disagree with a lot of what Moonfruit says.
I found just about all the improved battles to be challenging in some
way and I felt a real sense of achievement in completing them all.
It took me about 20-30 reloads each before I could beat Improved
Irenicus, Eclispe and Ascension on Core level. Improved Bodhi and
Kuroisan both took a brave few reloads as well.
Improved Maevar, the Guarded Compound and Twisted Rune were only
easier because I tackled them after the Underdark. I originally tried
to get C Fury early on but got an ass kickin, then had to reload!
10 out of 10 in my books.
Thanks Wes, Jason and everyone else involved in the mods for ruining
my social life!! :o)
Westley Weimer
> I found just about all the improved battles to be challenging in some
> way and I felt a real sense of achievement in completing them all.
Congratulations. You have achieved much (as far as any video game
accomplishment can extend) -- whether you believe that the improved fights
are "still too easy" or "way too hard", everyone agrees that they are
harder than the original game.
> It took me about 20-30 reloads each before I could beat Improved
> Irenicus, Eclispe and Ascension on Core level.
Wow, that seems excessive. I'm not sure that I would have had your
patience. Perhaps you were trying every fight with the bare minimum level
of party power?
To be fair, however, my first attempts with Ascension took at least a dozen
reloads.
> Improved Bodhi and Kuroisan both took a brave few reloads as well.
I'm glad to see that the "standard difficulty ordering" seems to apply to
your reload count.
> Improved Maevar, the Guarded Compound and Twisted Rune were only
> easier because I tackled them after the Underdark. I originally tried
> to get C Fury early on but got an ass kickin, then had to reload!
Good, that means the Imp GC crew did exactly what they were supposed to do.
> 10 out of 10 in my books.
Thank you for your kind words.
- Wes
Cynthia Crise
> Moses <possi...@notverylikely.com> wrote:
> > Hissssssssss. Beware the wrath of Weimer.
>
> I'm having trouble interpreting this. Both Weimer and his mods try to
avoid
> being "wrathful", despite what you may have heard about Kuroisan. :-)
>
> - Wes
I'm sure he didn't mean it personally, as you are nothing but gracious in
your responses, but I can feel his pain.
Last night I saved and quit my game with my 11/10 level party standing
outside in the Government District at night. Then I installed Soulafein and
all the other good stuff. Today I went back to my game, and my party gets
ambushed where they stand *without moving a step*.
[spoiler ahead]
Then I decided to do the Unseeing Eye quest. From the Soulafein readme:
"Tactical Encounters: all "useless" Undead (e.g., not vampires, not liches)
now have weak Undead-ish powers (e.g., blindness, horror, doom)." This is
not insignificant for my level party. Anomen can't even destroy ghasts yet,
we're getting horror, blindness, and doom thrown at us, I've used all the
Dispel Magics that Anomen, Nalia, Haer'Dalis, and Keldorn had memorized (I
like to be well-prepared with that spell), and we get to the City of the
Undead and there is a LICH there. About all we've got left is Chant and
Blur, not great offensive spells. I was going to rest first down in the
basement, but the Lady Chang'Er refused to sleep on the cold, hard stone,
especially since her first (only?) night of romance was coming up, and we
couldn't leave for a nice hotel because of the rift device (guess I could
stash it somewhere.)
I confess, I'm really a terrible player. My strategy is to hit things with
sharp objects until they die. I even forgot to use Daystar. I'm starting
to learn how to play a monk, though. The Lady Chang'Er has poison
resistance, and I've found that she can go into a cloudkill without taking
damage, even though she says 'Ouch' a lot.
I've got to say, these changes have made the game fresh again (on just third
run-through). I'm not ready to give up yet.
Cyn
Badbark
> > It took me about 20-30 reloads each before I could beat Improved
> > Irenicus, Eclispe and Ascension on Core level.
>
> Wow, that seems excessive. I'm not sure that I would have had your
> patience. Perhaps you were trying every fight with the bare minimum level
> of party power?
>
> To be fair, however, my first attempts with Ascension took at least a dozen
> reloads.
>
OK then I've been rumbled. I may have exaggerated slighty on my
original post. I had just finished Ascension less than an hour before
writing that and although it felt like 30 reloads it was probably only
about 15 for each! Stress related spoof! :o)
Badbark.
djarvinen
((snip))
> My strategy is to hit things with sharp objects until they die.
I don't think this is a bad strategy; in fact, I think it is rather
good. However, I've branched out a little and expanded my offensive
mindset: sometimes I now use blunt objects. :)
DJ
J.C. Bengtson
> OK then I've been rumbled. I may have exaggerated slighty on my
> original post. I had just finished Ascension less than an hour before
> writing that and although it felt like 30 reloads it was probably only
> about 15 for each! Stress related spoof! :o)
Improved Bodhi is even more fun solo. I had Solafein join my party
specifically so he could be kidnapped by her, right before the battle,
just to make it harder. *grin*
--
J.C. Bengtson - "Makoru"
* http://home.ptd.net/~golbez
* http://sailorscout.redversusblue.com
Cynthia Crise
news:4c6b7a6a.02101...@posting.google.com...
(In reference to battling a lich in The City of the Dead, Unseeing Eye
quest, with a level 11/10 party.)
Blunt objects.
Now that gave me an idea. I tried the battle again. With the vague
recollection that the elemental damage of the Flail of Ages would hurt the
lich, I had Anomen stop turning undead, which wasn't working anyway, and
sent him in after the lich.
Shortly after that, Lady Chang'Er said, "I hope your heart now finds
solace," and bravely took the Flail from her beloved's corpse. But,
whoops, she's a monk, and flails aren't among the approximately two weapons
a monk can use. So she tossed it to Korgan, who also couldn't use it
because he was confused or horrified or possibly dead himself-I don't
remember as it was sooo many reloads ago.
My first mistake with this battle was to leave Minsc behind while Keldorn
joined us for the Unseeing Eye quest. Since I planned to pick Minsc up
later, I left most of his gear with him-which included the dandy
undead-killing if incongruously-named Azuredge.
Try again. We pick off the undead that normally inhabit the place, run out,
save, and run back in. Maybe not run, maybe creep. We discover that the
lich is triggered by crossing a certain spot. Unfortunately, he targets the
person he sees, even when summon fodder is thrown at him first. Haer'Dalis
drew the short straw, and valiantly took one for the team. He doesn't
actually seem to mind dying anyway. On one of the reloads, we were able to
eliminate all of the lich's summons by hemming them in close to his own
death fog and letting him kill them.
Good time to run out and save. Unfortunately, Haer'Dalis is still dead.
Numerous frustrated reloads later, we decided to finish the Unseeing Eye
quest and check in later to see if the lich ran out of spells or
protections. The main quest was a walk in the park compared.
So we come back, and lich-boy is just as eager as ever. This lich has a
nasty habit of making you come to him. "Where are they, dammit? I don't
have all day." Like he has anything better to do, he's DEAD.
But we've thought out a new strategy. This time it's just him and us, plus
his fire elemental and one left-over mummy. We charm the elemental, the
lich teleports us in close for his Mad Tea Party, and we execute the new
strategy. We all run to the perimeter out of the Sphere of Chaos. Anomen,
Chang'Er, and Daystar take care of the mummy. Keldorn fires crossbow bolts
and Korgan throws an axe at Mr. Lich in an attempt to disrupt his spell.
Nalia digs deep into her spell cases and drops his protections. This just
in-Haer'Dalis is still dead. Nalia summoned a Nishuruu, which can whale on
that sucker for a long time. Eventually we started to do real damage, and
got the most welcome message: Lich-Dead.
We did a dance of joy and you'll be sorry to hear we raised Haer'Dalis.
Cyn
Westley Weimer
> Last night I saved and quit my game with my 11/10 level party standing
First, thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us.
> all the other good stuff. Today I went back to my game, and my party gets
> ambushed where they stand *without moving a step*.
Ambushed by what? Some of those GB/KR encounters can be quite fierce. :-)
If you're standing near an exit to one of the city areas, watch out.
> "Tactical Encounters: all "useless" Undead (e.g., not vampires, not liches)
> now have weak Undead-ish powers (e.g., blindness, horror, doom)." This is
> not insignificant for my level party. Anomen can't even destroy ghasts yet,
> we're getting horror, blindness, and doom thrown at us, I've used all the
Based on your comments (and some others), the next version will feature
undead that use these powers every three rounds (or more) instead of every
two.
> basement, but the Lady Chang'Er refused to sleep on the cold, hard stone,
Nice. :-)
> I confess, I'm really a terrible player.
I don't think so, based on your descriptions.
> My strategy is to hit things with sharp objects until they die. I even
> forgot to use Daystar.
:-)
> I'm not ready to give up yet.
Keep us posted!
> Blunt objects.
They come in handy.
> Now that gave me an idea. I tried the battle again. With the vague
> recollection that the elemental damage of the Flail of Ages would hurt the
> lich,
... well, it would. If you take down his Pro-Magic-Weapons.
> Shortly after that, Lady Chang'Er said, "I hope your heart now finds
> solace,"
All of those years of training as a monk, standing under waterfalls,
carrying around hot coals ... you may be the only one with the patience to
handle an Anomen romance. :-)
> whoops, she's a monk, and flails aren't among the approximately two
> weapons a monk can use.
I don't know what they were thinking there either.
> remember as it was sooo many reloads ago.
Sorry! What difficulty level are you using?
> undead-killing if incongruously-named Azuredge.
Yeah, that would have been handy.
> save, and run back in. Maybe not run, maybe creep. We discover that the
> lich is triggered by crossing a certain spot.
If you're curious, press Ctrl-4 while you're playing the game (Debug Mode=1
in baldur.ini).
> Unfortunately, he targets the person he sees, even when summon fodder is
> thrown at him first.
I try to avoid having them fall for truly obvious ploys :-).
> He doesn't actually seem to mind dying anyway.
It's that "serve the greater chaos" mentality.
> Numerous frustrated reloads later,
Being frustrated is bad. What can I do to help?
> The main quest was a walk in the park compared.
Did you have the Smarter Beholders installed?
> So we come back, and lich-boy is just as eager as ever. This lich has a
> nasty habit of making you come to him.
Before it was way too easy to kill one with a pro-undead scroll.
> "Where are they, dammit? I don't have all day." Like he has anything
> better to do, he's DEAD.
:-)
> in-Haer'Dalis is still dead. Nalia summoned a Nishuruu, which can whale on
Nishruu is a good idea.
> that sucker for a long time. Eventually we started to do real damage, and
> got the most welcome message: Lich-Dead.
Congrats! Well-done!
What level was your party, by the way? If you were level 10 or 11, beating
a lich is a serious accomplishment.
- Wes
Cynthia Crise
> Cynthia Crise <CynC...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Last night I saved and quit my game with my 11/10 level party standing
>
> First, thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us.
My pleasure. The nascent bard in me is always looking for an audience.
> Ambushed by what? Some of those GB/KR encounters can be quite fierce. :-)
> If you're standing near an exit to one of the city areas, watch out.
That’s it. There were fighters, backstabbing thieves, and two magic users.
> > "Tactical Encounters: all "useless" Undead (e.g., not vampires, not
liches)
> > now have weak Undead-ish powers (e.g., blindness, horror, doom)." This
is
> > not insignificant for my level party. Anomen can't even destroy ghasts
yet,
> > we're getting horror, blindness, and doom thrown at us, I've used all
the
>
> Based on your comments (and some others), the next version will feature
> undead that use these powers every three rounds (or more) instead of every
> two.
It took me a little while to figure out why my girl couldn’t see more than
three feet in front of her.
> All of those years of training as a monk, standing under waterfalls,
> carrying around hot coals ... you may be the only one with the patience to
> handle an Anomen romance. :-)
My girls love Anomen. My CG stalker found the dedicated priest to be better
bf material than that dog Coran, who never came looking for her after she
was captured by Irenicus. My CN bard eats up the drama he gives her and
thinks they look real cute together. Lady Chang’Er thinks he’s sweet if
immature, but I have a feeling that she’s going to fall hard for Solaufein.
> > remember as it was sooo many reloads ago.
>
> Sorry! What difficulty level are you using?
(Mumbles something that sounds like “Normal”.)
> If you're curious, press Ctrl-4 while you're playing the game (Debug
Mode=1
> in baldur.ini).
Oh, I *know* where it is, after much empirical testing.
> I try to avoid having them fall for truly obvious ploys :-).
You are highly successful.
> > Numerous frustrated reloads later,
>
> Being frustrated is bad. What can I do to help?
If the generic undead aren’t tossing off those annoyance spells so often,
that will help the early part of the battle. (Subliminal whisper: Take the
lich out.) I think it was just a matter of running into something we were
completely unprepared for, on the last quest we were attempting before
heading off to Spellhold. (Take the lich out.) If we had done a
restoration for the two of us who were level-drained, rested to replenish
our depleted spells, had Azuredge with us, or had a level or two on us, it
would have been much easier. (Take the lich out.) We would have left the
quest until later except we needed a tad more cash as Lady Chang’Er had
splurged on some pricey items, such as the Scarlet Ninja-to. (Take the lich
out.)
> > The main quest was a walk in the park compared.
>
> Did you have the Smarter Beholders installed?
Yes, because I liked the change that made the elder orbs a different color.
> > So we come back, and lich-boy is just as eager as ever. This lich has a
> > nasty habit of making you come to him.
>
> Before it was way too easy to kill one with a pro-undead scroll.
I rarely use protection scrolls or potions. I don’t know why. I always end
my games stuffed with them.
> that sucker for a long time. Eventually we started to do real damage, and
> > got the most welcome message: Lich-Dead.
>
> Congrats! Well-done!
Thank you. It only took me (mumbles something that sounds like “6”) days.
> What level was your party, by the way? If you were level 10 or 11, beating
> a lich is a serious accomplishment.
>
> - Wes
I take that as a serious compliment, thank you.
Lady Chang’Er was level 11 drained to 10, Keldorn 10 drained to 8, and Sir
Anomen, Korgan, Nalia, and Haer’Dalis were all 11, except Haer’Dalis was
also of course dead.
I know you won’t take the lich out, and that’s good, because I’m looking
forward to eventually battling him with my fighter/thief Jennet, who is
still in Baldur’s Gate city.
Cyn