Gay romance in BG2???? Come ON!!
Brad Wilson
complaining how there is no
homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
I am not biased against homosexuals in any way, but it is time for a
reply... This is going TOO FAR! When they respond in force, I must
speak out! I am completely liberal, I have many homosexual friends,
however this is insane. THIS is a FANTASY not Reality.... This game
is based in 1400 Europe... not 1970 San Francisco... There are no
homosexuals in 15th century England... and to expect a company to cater
this game to EVERY SINGLE demographic is IMPOSSIBLE! It cannot be
done... If you have any complaints, they should be directed to the
population in general.. not to specific publishing companies...
Baldur's Gate II is a fantastic...wonderous game of might
and magic.. heroes and villians... good and evil.... leave it be... I
beg you...
Peace...
Ghost Who Walks
> This game is based in 1400 Europe... not 1970 San Francisco... There are
> no
> homosexuals in 15th century England...
There have been same sex relationships since forever or so. Holy Roman
Empire? Hello? Not too bright are you... these behaviours don't just pop
up. They exist then just like now, on a lower scale.. perhaps. Less
talked about? Perhaps. Nonexistant? Get real.
Ghost
Mark Chen
homosexuals in 15th century England. Homosexuality is hardly anything new
and is not unique to post-modern societies.
I, like you, claim to be liberal and totally accepting. I think, though,
that it would have been easier to have made the game allow same sex
relationships. I mean, you'd have one less flag to check, right? All four
love interests would be available to your protagonist regardless of gender,
right?
This actually reminds me a lot of Measure 9 in Oregon right now... It isn't
that they would be going out of their way to feature gay romance. In
actuality they may have gone out of their way to not feature it. (I think
Anomen is pretty girlie anyway...) For Measure 9, by specifically saying
that there are no special rights for gays, the masses would be going out of
their way to make sure gays weren't represented, where if it were truly
fair, no one would care and we'd just do what would be legislatively
easiest.
Of course, this is kind of a sticky topic for some people. Just my $0.02.
mark
--
Mark Danger Chen | Web Guy | (503) 231-1314
"Brad Wilson" <wibr...@stcloudstate.edu> wrote in message
news:39F3EDBF...@stcloudstate.edu...
> Alright.. I have had enough!!! Now the homosexual community is
> complaining how there is no
> homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
> I am not biased against homosexuals in any way, but it is time for a
> reply... This is going TOO FAR! When they respond in force, I must
> speak out! I am completely liberal, I have many homosexual friends,
> however this is insane. THIS is a FANTASY not Reality.... This game
> is based in 1400 Europe... not 1970 San Francisco... There are no
Mark Chen
who happen to be gay (or not, in my case) do not represent the "homosexual
community."
It's like saying you (or me, for that matter) represent the heterosexual
community in your (my) opinions.
This is a common error on people who are proponents of "no special rights
for gay people." To mistaken the outrageous flaming queen in a gay pride
parade to represent all who are gay.
Add another $0.01.
Jan Sacharuk
Mark Chen wrote:
>Of course, this is kind of a sticky topic for some people. Just my $0.02.
Hey, they managed to let it slide in the Sims. I think it woulda been
cool. Hot Girl on Girl action, YEAH! :P
Anyway, they didn't put homosexual relationships in because it would
have changed the rating. People exploding everywhere, murder
occasionally encouraged, and spells like 'Finger of Death' and 'Death
Spell' in common use, and a homosexual relationship would have changed
the rating. What a society. :P
>> homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
>> I am not biased against homosexuals in any way, but it is time for a
>> reply... This is going TOO FAR! When they respond in force, I must
As for you, let 'em complain. If nobody complains, nothing will ever
change. There may be a day when including everybody is easy and is
second nature. If letting these people complain is part of that, well,
let 'em do it. How does it really effect you, anyway?
JS
--
====================== j...@cs.ualberta.ca ======================
Jan Sacharuk President, Undergraduate Association of CS @ UofA
Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Surviving is instinct.
Living takes guts. "
- Lance Armstrong
GLEN O. ROBERTSON
politically correct views , civil rights in regards to a excellent fantasy
game is ridiculous . The game was created for peole to have fun and escape
reality for a certain period of the time , not to be a pulpit for someone's
politcal views !
"Mark Chen" <markdan...@att.net> wrote in message
news:6euJ5.5391$MR3.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Tyberius Oxy Spam
"Brad Wilson" <wibr...@stcloudstate.edu> wrote in message
news:39F3EDBF...@stcloudstate.edu...
> Alright.. I have had enough!!! Now the homosexual community is
> complaining how there is no
> homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
> I am not biased against homosexuals in any way, but it is time for a
> reply... This is going TOO FAR! When they respond in force, I must
> speak out! I am completely liberal, I have many homosexual friends,
> however this is insane. THIS is a FANTASY not Reality.... This game
> is based in 1400 Europe... not 1970 San Francisco... There are no
> homosexuals in 15th century England.
Yes you're completely right, just don't mention Dickie the
Lionhearted..........
Edward Cowling 'Games - Addict'
<wibr...@stcloudstate.edu> writes
>Alright.. I have had enough!!! Now the homosexual community is
>complaining how there is no
>homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
Well I hate to wind you up further, but in Fall Out 2 you could not only
get your female character to sleep with the farmers daughter, but you
could marry her as well.
I often thought this was a bug in the game, but it was incredibly funny
to watch the wedding service with the two female characters :-)
--
Edward Cowling 'Games - Addict'
Waldoou812
for homosexual relationships.
Takeda Shingen, for one (one of the more powerful warlords of the time) was a
staunch advocate of same-sex relationships, and if I remember correctly he
actually stated that women were only good for "making babies," but that only a
man could really love another man.
??? Well, whatever floated his boat, I guess...
Still, your point about there being no homosexuals in 15th century England is
laughably ridiculous.
If anything, the only reason we don't hear about them in medievel Europe is
because of the repressive attitudes at the time. I could just see it; faced
with the prospect of being burned at the stake for "heresy," how many
homosexuals do you think would actually admit to it in an open forum?
Waldo
Waldoou812
>get your female character to sleep with the farmers daughter, but you
>could marry her as well.
>
>I often thought this was a bug in the game, but it was incredibly funny
>to watch the wedding service with the two female characters :-)
No Way! Dude, I have got to re-install that game, just to try that feature
out...
My friend Cindi at work tells me I'm a closet lesbian anyways... I don't know
what it is, but just the idea of two women together...
Waldo
AndrwHow
hahntsak
with shadowkeeper editor the pronouns will be correct but love interest will be
aerie, jaheira, and vinconia... for gay well create female and change to male
but you only get that ass anomen...sorry
N. M. Wallace
> Alright.. I have had enough!!! Now the homosexual community is
> complaining how there is no
> homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
> I am not biased against homosexuals in any way, but it is time for a
> reply... This is going TOO FAR!
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the "homosexual community." I still
haven't gotten my copy of the gay agenda in the mail, but that may be
because I have too many boycooties to be a proper lesbian. Anyway...
Other people have pointed out that same-sex relationships have existed
throughout time, so I won't belabor that point. I'd like to see the
option in BG for one simple reason: I prefer to play female
characters. My choice for character romance is....Anomen. Whee. The
possibilities if my Lawful Good Undead Hunter could hook up with Viconia
(who is one sexy set of pixels, if you ask me) are incendiary.
Yow. I need to go lie down now.
Nancy
Nancy M. Wallace @}----- dark...@pardalis.org
"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart."
_Memory_, Lois McMaster Bujold
Gandelon
news:8t6ajv$2cd$1...@news.owt.com...
> I agree with the post by Brad Wilson . Getting into homosexuality and
> politically correct views , civil rights in regards to a excellent
fantasy
> game is ridiculous . The game was created for peole to have fun and escape
> reality for a certain period of the time , not to be a pulpit for
someone's
> politcal views !
Well, I agree with you, but not for the reasons you state. Bioware
developed a game with their own money. As such, they are free to include in
it anything they want. Of course, they are hoping to make money by selling
the game, so they intend to include content that the maximum number of
gamers want included, while leaving out content that most gamers would
rather do without.
There are creative/ artistic control issues here as well, but I think
they're ultimately all but irrelevant. The bottom line is that the game was
developed on their dime. Politics SHOULD have nothing to do with it. The
analysis can get much more complicated, but don't see any real reason to
complicate a thing that is so simple at its root.
Gandelon
news:20001025092350...@ng-fy1.news.cs.com...
> Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the first post was made in
jest?
If you're referring to the fallout2 post, it wasn't a joke. I never tried
it myself, but enough people posted on the fallout2 gay marriage that I have
no doubt it's possible... I did play with a male character, and can verify
that the farmer's son seemed just as interested as the daughter was. Didn't
follow this... er... thread to its conclusion, though.
Edward Cowling 'Games - Addict'
<waldo...@aol.com> writes
I kid you not, the it's actually the Butcher's daughter in Modoc, and if
you're main character is female you can seduce and marry her.
Edward Cowling 'Games - Addict'
<waldo...@aol.com> writes
>Still, your point about there being no homosexuals in 15th century England is
>laughably ridiculous.
>
15th Century England ?? Why should BG 2 be in England ?
Funny enough I don't remember much in history lessons about the famous
Cowled Wizards of Oxford, or the famed Planar Sphere of Olde London
Town.
I think we're accepting a very shaky theory as fact here :-)
Edward Cowling 'Games - Addict'
<andr...@cs.com> writes
>Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the first post was made in jest?
It did have angry of Tunbridge Wells written all over it.
i.e. it looked a bit tongue in cheek.
Cay
"GLEN O. ROBERTSON" <ava...@owt.com> wrote in message
news:8t6ajv$2cd$1...@news.owt.com...
> I agree with the post by Brad Wilson . Getting into homosexuality and
> politically correct views , civil rights in regards to a excellent
fantasy
> game is ridiculous . The game was created for peole to have fun and escape
> reality for a certain period of the time , not to be a pulpit for
someone's
> politcal views !
I agree, but again for different reasons. I regard CRPGs as games which
tell stories. This is especially true for Planescape Torment, and there is
arguably a definite, cohesive story being told in Baldur's Gate II. Playing
the game is in some ways similar to reading a book, or watching a movie. A
homosexual relationship is one story arc that the authors felt wasn't
necessary and chose not to include. One shouldn't criticize the author for
something he/she *didn't* write into the story. Instead accept the story
content as it was written, and criticize based on whether you do or don't
like it.
-Cay
Kevin Patrick
GLEN O. ROBERTSON wrote in message <8t6ajv$2cd$1...@news.owt.com>...
> The game was created for peole to have fun and escape
>reality for a certain period of the time , not to be a pulpit for someone's
>politcal views !
Since when was homosexuality about politics?
Including heterosexual relationships in a game shouldn't be any different
than including homosexual relationships.
Notice that there is no actual SEX in BG2. Hence, it serves no purpose to
only include hetero relationships...besides just being a choice Black isle
or Bioware made.
Kevin Patrick
Ping
> complaining how there is no
LMAO!! this is going in my personal usenet archive right *now* :)
-Ping
http://www.creatureslife.net
icq: 6283750
http://skizzers.org/ping/
email: Ping AT subdimension DOT com
[PING! The magic duck!]
Kevin Patrick
Brad Wilson wrote in message <39F3EDBF...@stcloudstate.edu>...
[large, historically incorrect RANT snipped]
Ahhh, ignorance is bliss......
Kevin Patrick
p.s. - Looking at his address, wouldn't you think people would know more
about history by COLLEGE?!?!?! What a great advert for that school's
curriculum!
Matt Holmes
interesting to see that the majority of the responses here are pro-gay, or
at least anti-Brad Wilson. That's not what I would have expected from a
bunch of computer gamers, but hey -- what do I know? (especially since all
I do is play BG2, eh?) The issue of homosexuality is one plagued with
widely-ranging opinions, gut-feelings, deep-rooted beliefs, double
standards, and prejudices (in BOTH directions). Once upon a time, I saw
things in black and white where gays were concerned. Circumstances forced
me to seriously think about the issue, and my conclusion is... I have no
idea what's right. On the one hand, the very concept of homosexuality is
enough to turn some peoples' stomachs. They feel that it is unnatural,
immoral, sinful, whatever. But on the other hand, most gay folks feel that
it is their natural expression; that they aren't hurting anyone, and that
they have as much right to exercise their sexual preference as
heterosexuals have to theirs. Are the first lot evil? Are they bigoted
and nasty people because their instincts seem to be telling them that
homosexuality is wrong? Perhaps, are they misinformed, or naive, or just
plain delusional (remember the Salem witch trials)? Who's to say.
Certainly not me. My whole life, my gut reaction was that of repusion at
the thought of male-male relationships. But what about lesbians? Of
course, many folks will chuckle about their fantasies of two women going at
it, while in the same breath expressing their horror at the thought of two
guys doing the same. This is, of course, a terrible double standard, of
which I'd venture to say, MOST of society is guilty of. But what is
RIGHT? What is wrong? Is it right to allow the total saturation of
homosexuality into society, so that it's treated as being normal and
acceptable, as opposed to being an "alternative" lifestyle, or worse? What
effects would that have on young folks, to grow up in an environment where
their sexual identity was even MORE confusing than life already makes it?
Is it wrong to be conservative? Is it wrong NOT to be?
As I've stated, I have no friggin clue what the answer is. In fact, I
think that there IS no right answer. I think that issues like
homosexuality, abortion and the death penalty are never going to be
completely resolved. There will always be people who's gut tells them that
it's wrong, and there will always be people who's gut tells them that it's
right. The trouble is, for both to learn to live together in peace. I've
come to terms with the situation that I was put in, and I've found that
it's easiest just not to think about it. "Ignorance is bliss," they say.
I'm not ignoring the problem in hopes that it will go away. I'm sure it
never will. I'm ignoring the problem because my tiny little brain is not
capable of understanding a thing so diametrically opposed to my instincts.
It's just too big for me to grab. CASE IN POINT: get comfortable, let your
eyes go blurry, and try to focus your mind on the concept of INFINITY.
Imagine living forever. Not just 100 years, or even a million years.
Imagine living FOREVER, and tell me it doesn't scare the crap out of you.
It does me. Numbers are no good, comparisons are no good. All there is is
feeling, and that is completely subjective; reality is different for every
person on the planet. And so we have our quandry.
I think it's safe to say that the overwhelming majority of BG2 players are
not concerned with the lack of homosexual relationships in the game,
regardless of their own tolerances or sexual preference. Therefore, I
think it's more or less a non-issue. It's the principle of the thing that
gets people on both sides riled up. So, all that shit having been said,
LET'S GAME! hehe
- m.h.
Brad Wilson wrote:
> Alright.. I have had enough!!! Now the homosexual community is
> complaining how there is no
> homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
> I am not biased against homosexuals in any way, but it is time for a
> reply... This is going TOO FAR! When they respond in force, I must
> speak out! I am completely liberal, I have many homosexual friends,
> however this is insane. THIS is a FANTASY not Reality.... This game
> is based in 1400 Europe... not 1970 San Francisco... There are no
> homosexuals in 15th century England... and to expect a company to cater
> this game to EVERY SINGLE demographic is IMPOSSIBLE! It cannot be
> done... If you have any complaints, they should be directed to the
> population in general.. not to specific publishing companies...
> Baldur's Gate II is a fantastic...wonderous game of might
> and magic.. heroes and villians... good and evil.... leave it be... I
> beg you...
> Peace...
--
- m.h.
"Who's your elder??"
----
Cay
I don't think the issue of whether homosexuality is "right" or "wrong" is
the primary concern of this discussion. Instead I think the major issue is
(regardless of right/wrong), should Bioware be expected to include
homosexual content in their games. We don't need to judge the content
(although some may argue that such content would change the MPAA rating, so
it must be reviewed). Rather we need to decide whether (a) Bioware should
be accountable for producing politcally correct and equal content, or
whether (b) Bioware has the artistic freedom to exclude content that it
considers unnecessary or innappropriate.
Personally, I take the view that Bioware is using a game to tell a story,
and that they can damn-well tell any story they want, and include or exclude
any issue they want. It's *their* story! Anybody who doesn't like it that
way, doesn't have to buy it. It's not as if they're providing us with a
public/government service or something.
-Cay
"Matt Holmes" <wu...@wubbo.com> wrote in message
news:39F7466F...@wubbo.com...
Tal'n Lazarus
news:20001025211149...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
> I just think it would be the coolest thing in the world to actually have a
> video game based (at least somewhat loosely) on the world of feudal
Japan -
> sometime around the Kamakura era, especially. After all, it does seem
that
> most CRPG designers tend to think that the only thing worthwhile to come
from
> Japan is anime, and quite frankly, that stuff makes me gag.
>
> Am I the only one, by the way, who is somewhat disturbed by that stuff?
Maybe
> it's just me, but a lot of anime almost seems to border on child
pornograhy.
> (probably just me, I'll bet).
> Waldo
Geez, which ones are you watching? None of the ones I've seen even come
close to what you're describing.
--
Zot.
= Tal'n The Lazarus
"It's all right, it's just a horse in the bathroom."
- Professor Urban Chronotis, the Regius Professor of Chronology
Waldoou812
>Personally, I take the view that Bioware is using a game to tell a story,
>and that they can damn-well tell any story they want, and include or exclude
>any issue they want. It's *their* story! Anybody who doesn't like it that
>way, doesn't have to buy it. It's not as if they're providing us with a
>public/government service or something.
Amen to that. I also thought Mr. Holmes' posting on wrapping our minds around
the concept of infinity was particularly insightful as well, though perhaps not
completely germaine to the issue of whether Bioware should include
homosexuality in their games or not.
But! Since each of us is going on his or her own little rant, I thought I'd
include mine... If I could get away with it, and if Bioware <was> producing
software for which it was politically accountable, I'd be bitching for some
Orientals to finally start showing up in these games (specifically Japanese
types)!
Twin Ion Engine
games as possible, they will have to make the content as wide-accepting as
possible. BG 2 has already "suffered" by adopting the "satanic" Dungeon and
Dragon system, why would they want to make it less sellable by including gay
content?
Sadly, people are more accepting see-ing heads being bashed open than two men
making out. So if you want make money, and I think Bioware do, you would want
to TRY taking the path of least resistance.
So it boils down to cold hard cash...gain a smaller percentage of gay
community approval, or lose a possibly larger percentage of those who do not
care about such content. Of course, if it were to be done subtly and not
rubbed into you face, gamers don't care but then again, why take the risk?
Call me cynic but mose guys who "approve" of gay content here seem to think
more of playing female and making out with Viconia....a fact that seem to
indicate less acceptance of gay relationships than otherwise.
Just do a test...play as a female character when you are a guy and just
imagine its YOU with Anomen....and see if you like it.
In article <C2JJ5.49464$Z2.7...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Cay"
Ping
news:8t87cf$fk0$2...@dosa.alt.net...
> BG 2 has already "suffered" by adopting the "satanic" Dungeon and
> Dragon system
http://religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm
hehe :)
sorry...I just *had* too :P
Aslog
>In article <39F3EDBF...@stcloudstate.edu>, Brad Wilson
><wibr...@stcloudstate.edu> writes
>>complaining how there is no
>>homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
>
>get your female character to sleep with the farmers daughter, but you
>could marry her as well.
>
>I often thought this was a bug in the game, but it was incredibly funny
>to watch the wedding service with the two female characters :-)
>
>
With the preacher/mayor whatever saying you two brides might kiss each other I
don't think it is a bug, haven't tried a male-male marriage but I have read in
the Fallout newsgroup it is possible.
Aslog
Aslog
>On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, Brad Wilson wrote:
>
>> complaining how there is no
>> homosexual relationships in Baldur's Gate II... This has GONE TOO FAR!
>> reply... This is going TOO FAR!
>
>haven't gotten my copy of the gay agenda in the mail, but that may be
>because I have too many boycooties to be a proper lesbian. Anyway...
>
>Other people have pointed out that same-sex relationships have existed
>throughout time, so I won't belabor that point. I'd like to see the
>option in BG for one simple reason: I prefer to play female
>characters. My choice for character romance is....Anomen. Whee. The
>possibilities if my Lawful Good Undead Hunter could hook up with Viconia
>(who is one sexy set of pixels, if you ask me) are incendiary.
>
>Yow. I need to go lie down now.
>
>Nancy
>
>Nancy M. Wallace @}----- dark...@pardalis.org
>
>"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart."
> _Memory_, Lois McMaster Bujold
>
>
Same reason for me, so I was glad to see the post about changing gender with
shadowkeeper, going to try that on my 2nd run thru the game and whack Anomen
the stereotypic abusive male whiner.
Aslog
Cay
Exactly!
This has nothing to do with ethics, morals or political correctness -- it's
all about marketing. And as long as no one tries to take away Bioware's
artistic freedom, or handcuff them into political correctness, then their
game content will continue to be dictated by....marketing!
This reminds me so much of the old male/female main character debate. Only
the game companies now realize that female CRPG players make up a large
enough portion of the market that it is profitable to accomodate them with
female main characters. Apparently, the same companies don't believe that
it would be profitable to address a potential homosexual share of the
market.
-Cay
--
Kennaway Byron MacGregor
Department of Biological Sciences, Brock University
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada L2S 3A1
Twin Ion Engine <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
news:8t87cf$fk0$2...@dosa.alt.net...
Waldoou812
>more of playing female and making out with Viconia....a fact that seem to
>indicate less acceptance of gay relationships than otherwise.
You're absolutely right on the one hand- I tend to find lesbians very
interesting, and the idea of playing a female character and making out with
Viconia <does> sound appealing.
However, that's not to say that I'd care one way or the other if they included
a male-on-male relationship possibility in the game. If it was central to the
story and/or required me to play a male-on-male relationship, I more than
likely wouldn't buy the game as it would throw off my enjoyment of it, but it
wouldn't bother me to find out that Anomen "swung both ways," as it were, and
wanted a piece of me as well. I just wouldn't go for it.
Waldo
N. M. Wallace
> Call me cynic but mose guys who "approve" of gay content here seem to think
> more of playing female and making out with Viconia....a fact that seem to
> indicate less acceptance of gay relationships than otherwise.
No, it's just the standard hetboy fantasy of getting it on with the hot
kinky bi babes. Mind you, the times I've been in that situation, us bi
babes were more interested in each other than the boys.
> Just do a test...play as a female character when you are a guy and just
> imagine its YOU with Anomen....and see if you like it.
Actually, if I think of Anomen as being gay and in the closet, even to
himself, his arrogance is easier to read as insecurity, and he's not so
damned insufferable. I'm trying to play out the romance in part because
my PC is a paladin herself, and probably wouldn't tell him that he's
full of it, but damn, it's hard.
epic_sou...@my-deja.com
> No, it's just the standard hetboy fantasy of getting it on with the hot
> kinky bi babes. Mind you, the times I've been in that situation, us bi
> babes were more interested in each other than the boys.
>
but nancy, you're forgetting one very important thing: who cares? ;)
I really do fail to see why anyone would get up in arms that Bioware might
put in a romantic storyline that people DON'T HAVE TO PURSUE. I mean, yes,
Bioware shouldn't be forced to put in a homosexual romance if they don't want
to. But they shouldn't be forced to put in monks, or dragons, or liches
either. It doesn't mean people don't have the right to make requests.
That's all. Well, except if anyone believes there were no homosexuals in
15th centurly England, then America's schools are even worse than I thought.
Epic
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matt Holmes
pornography -- it's busted right THROUGH the border! There is some truly
disturbing stuff coming out of those animation studios...
- m.h.
Tal'n Lazarus wrote:
> Waldoou812 <waldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001025211149...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
> > I just think it would be the coolest thing in the world to actually have a
> > video game based (at least somewhat loosely) on the world of feudal
> Japan -
> > sometime around the Kamakura era, especially. After all, it does seem
> that
> > most CRPG designers tend to think that the only thing worthwhile to come
> from
> > Japan is anime, and quite frankly, that stuff makes me gag.
> >
> > Am I the only one, by the way, who is somewhat disturbed by that stuff?
> Maybe
> > it's just me, but a lot of anime almost seems to border on child
> pornograhy.
> > (probably just me, I'll bet).
> > Waldo
>
> Geez, which ones are you watching? None of the ones I've seen even come
> close to what you're describing.
>
> --
> Zot.
> = Tal'n The Lazarus
> "It's all right, it's just a horse in the bathroom."
> - Professor Urban Chronotis, the Regius Professor of Chronology
--
Matt Holmes
rolling their eyes and smacking their foreheads. I'd bet that instead of
calculating the percentage of gamers who would want homosexual relationships in
the game, etc etc, that the idea probably never even occurred to them. They were
just having a blast putting out a kick ass computer game.
- m.h.
Twin Ion Engine wrote:
--
Ping
> Honestly, I think that this whole discussion probably has the folks at
Bioware
> rolling their eyes and smacking their foreheads. I'd bet that instead of
yeah I doubt there was any commercial conspiracy to purposely leave out
homosexual romances. as you say, it prolly never even crossed their mind.
after reading this thread I'm suprised there hasen't been a similiar one
about 'sexist' implimentation of the current romances (3 male-specific to 1
female-specific)...
Kevin Patrick
Waldoou812 wrote in message
<20001025211149...@ng-fh1.aol.com>...
>I'd be bitching for some
>Orientals to finally start showing up in these games (specifically Japanese
>types)!
Well, as long as we're discussing political correctness in games and such, I
might as well add to Waldoou812's post by correcting him:
People from the Far East are not called Orientals...they're Asians.
Oriental is used to describe a product made in the Orient, mostly being
China. Like a rug. I know we call all things (including people) from
Mexico "Mexican," but that doesn't apply to the East, since the Orient isn't
a geographically named place (like a country or something).
They prefer it, as would you if you were Asian.
>I just think it would be the coolest thing in the world to actually have a
>video game based (at least somewhat loosely) on the world of feudal Japan -
>sometime around the Kamakura era, especially. After all, it does seem that
>most CRPG designers tend to think that the only thing worthwhile to come
from
>Japan is anime, and quite frankly, that stuff makes me gag.
They already have several...here are two recent:
Shogun: Total War
Throne of Darkness
Peace,
Kevin Patrick
Kevin Patrick
Twin Ion Engine wrote in message <8t87cf$fk0$2...@dosa.alt.net>...
>Sadly, people are more accepting see-ing heads being bashed open than two
men
>making out.
I agree with your post, but let's remember for the sake or discussion that
there is NO heterosexual "making out" in BG2 that you actually see....
....that is, unless it happens later in the game.
Kevin Patrick
Kevin Patrick
Cay wrote in message ...
>This reminds me so much of the old male/female main character debate. Only
>the game companies now realize that female CRPG players make up a large
>enough portion of the market that it is profitable to accomodate them with
>female main characters. Apparently, the same companies don't believe that
>it would be profitable to address a potential homosexual share of the
>market.
Great point Cay. As most of the logical and sane people on this NG can
attest to, homosexuality isn't going anywhere -- it's been around since the
dawn of written history (and probably before that) and is gaining societal
acceptance.
So we just might see in the near future, as gaming covers more demographical
sectors, a homosexual CRPG or FPS or RTS. I don't see why we shouldn't, to
be honest.
Kevin Patrick
Twin Ion Engine
politically correct in that at least one of each of the earth culture has a
representative NPCs :-
Yoshimo - asian
Cernd - native american
Valygar/Mazzy - african
Minsc - arab
Haer Dalis' - latino (he reminds me of lou diamond phillips, BTW)
Even the "white" character has a fairly good mix of looks from italy, irish,
german, french etc... (what's with the dwarves = scottish accent anyway?)
That has to be a deliberate design.
The fact that there are 3 female NPCs and 1 male NPC for romance already shows
that the designers have the impression more male than female will play the
game (regardless of whether that thinking is accurate or not).
In fact, if they never balance the game between fun factor, technology and
marketability (that's where the PC and money factor comes in)...I'd be very
surprised.
In article <KyZJ5.324$Rc6....@news1.cableinet.net>, "Ping"
Cay
Very true, I noticed that myself. And I think it's great as long as it
seems natural. When it begins to appear forced or constraining, that's when
it worries me. Representing different ethnicities, races, philosophies,
lifestyles, etc. is great, but don't sacrifice quality in the story just
because you have to fit "race X" or "gender Y" into the scheme.
The day they turn the Forgotten Realms into the Starship Voyager, I'm
bailing out -- just as I did with Star Trek.
BTW, I always laugh when I hear different accents in the voices! Are all
dwarves Scottish? Are all lizard guys (from Phantom Menace) Jamaican? ;)
Cheers,
-Cay
"Twin Ion Engine" <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
news:8ta2dg$j0h$0...@pita.alt.net...
N. M. Wallace
> "Matt Holmes" <wu...@wubbo.com> wrote in message
> news:39F8642C...@wubbo.com...
> > Honestly, I think that this whole discussion probably has the folks at
> Bioware
> > rolling their eyes and smacking their foreheads. I'd bet that instead of
> <snip>
>
>
> yeah I doubt there was any commercial conspiracy to purposely leave out
> homosexual romances. as you say, it prolly never even crossed their mind.
I'm not sure about that. I'm not a programmer, nor do I play one on TV,
but I'd think that yo'd have to throw in a couple extra lines of code to
specify that the romance option is only available between character X if
the PC is of gender A.
> after reading this thread I'm suprised there hasen't been a similiar one
> about 'sexist' implimentation of the current romances (3 male-specific to 1
> female-specific)...
Sexist, no. Annoying, yes, because it means that if I want to pursue the
romance thread with a female character, my only choice is whiny punk-boy
Anomen. When he referred to another character as "arrogant and
puritanical," I had a good, long, laugh. Pot calls kettle black; film at
11.
Unknown User
>
>I just think it would be the coolest thing in the world to actually have a
>video game based (at least somewhat loosely) on the world of feudal Japan -
>sometime around the Kamakura era, especially. After all, it does seem that
>most CRPG designers tend to think that the only thing worthwhile to come from
>Japan is anime, and quite frankly, that stuff makes me gag.
Have you tried any of the Romance of three kingdoms games? I think the
last one was RTK6. It's put out by "KOEI" a Japanese Co. but It's
based on Chinese history. It's the closest thing I know of.
Waldoou812
>Oriental is used to describe a product made in the Orient, mostly being
>China. Like a rug. I know we call all things (including people) from
>Mexico "Mexican," but that doesn't apply to the East, since the Orient isn't
>a geographically named place (like a country or something).
>
>They prefer it, as would you if you were Asian.
To be completely honest, I AM "Oriental." (Or "Asian," if you prefer.) Sorry
for not specifying (and in answer to the inevitable question, half-Japanese)...
And to correct YOU, I don't specifically prefer either term. To me, the term
"Oriental" seems a bit more exotic, whilst "Asian" has a lot of mundane
connotations. Actually, come to think of it, I suppose I do prefer "Oriental"
over "Asian." Maybe next time, you might want to consider that blanket
statements delivered for an entire group of people are typically inaccurate in
at least a few instances.
>They already have several...here are two recent:
>
>Shogun: Total War
>Throne of Darkness
>
"Shogun: Total War" isn't an RPG, though, and while the idea certainly
captivated me, the reality (especially on my machine) was enough to make me
yawn.
As for "Throne of Darkness," well... what can I say other than WOW! Just saw
the ad for it in PCGamer today, and I'm headed over to the web site after this
to see what sort of details they have on it.
Waldo
Waldoou812
>No, it's just the standard hetboy fantasy of getting it on with the hot
>kinky bi babes. Mind you, the times I've been in that situation, us bi
>babes were more interested in each other than the boys.
Nancy, do you have the slightest clue just how much that statement turns on
guys like me? Rock on, sister!
Personally, I could never understand what you women ever see in us guys...
Oh, and by the way... I don't suppose you live in Colorado, would like to
e-mail me your telephone number, and are free next Friday night?
just kidding, Nancy - no offense intended. Honestly, though, I do find
lesbians to be extremely attractive, and bisexual women... oo! That HAS to be
the ultimate male fantasy...
Waldo
Waldoou812
>himself, his arrogance is easier to read as insecurity, and he's not so
>damned insufferable. I'm trying to play out the romance in part because
>my PC is a paladin herself, and probably wouldn't tell him that he's
>full of it, but damn, it's hard.
Oh, and just thought of something else, Nancy... Do women ever fantasy about
two guys getting it on? Just wondered if it was both ways or just a guy thing
(with lesbians/bi women). None of the women I've ever talked to about it ever
said yes, but I'm curious what you think.
Waldo
hahntsak
correct pronouns but the romance factors will be based on original settings
;-) =p =)
Cay wrote:
> Exactly!
>
> This has nothing to do with ethics, morals or political correctness -- it's
> all about marketing. And as long as no one tries to take away Bioware's
> artistic freedom, or handcuff them into political correctness, then their
> game content will continue to be dictated by....marketing!
>
> This reminds me so much of the old male/female main character debate. Only
> the game companies now realize that female CRPG players make up a large
> enough portion of the market that it is profitable to accomodate them with
> female main characters. Apparently, the same companies don't believe that
> it would be profitable to address a potential homosexual share of the
> market.
>
> -Cay
>
> --
> Kennaway Byron MacGregor
> Department of Biological Sciences, Brock University
> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada L2S 3A1
>
> Twin Ion Engine <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
> news:8t87cf$fk0$2...@dosa.alt.net...
hahntsak
kamchatka?
hahntsak
lots of time in crusades far from home with other muscled men and it was hot and
they were all tired and... but lots more spent entirely too much time with the
cows and sheep... i mean we are talking about england, and not like say
continental europe, the english ...well if they know what homosexuality is they
might very well be indulging in it...not to say that all british are gay, just
more than the non-british world [per capita]...
Mark Chen
prefer the word "Asian."
mark
--
Mark Danger Chen | Web Guy | (503) 231-1314
"Waldoou812" <waldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001026212422...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Waldoou812
Three times I've been disconnected while attempting to respond to this...
I know, I know... I can hear it now... "get a real ISP, Waldo." Well, usually,
I don't need one, and AOL has a lot of features I like, but this disconnection
crap really sucks.
Anyway, as I was attempting to say...
>Yeah, but I'd say that most Asians who know their American history would
>prefer the word "Asian."
Maybe most of the Orientals <you> know, Mr. Chen (Chinese?) would prefer
"Asian," but some of us never really got on that whole political correctness
bandwagon.
As for my knowledge of American history, let's just say that I know enough to
know what you're talking about, but I don't consider it germaine to today's
situation. Certainly it irritated me in the past to learn about how Chinese
Americans were treated during the days of the Old West, and likewise it
irritated me to learn how Japanese Americans were treated during WWII. After
all, if I read your last name correctly as Chinese (or at least as not being
Japanese), then I'd say that they dropped the bomb (two of them, of course) on
MY country, not yours.
But have you ever heard Sting's "History Will Teach Us Nothing?" It's an
interesting view on the whole issue of why exactly we study history. I mean,
if we're studying it in order to learn not to repeat our mistakes, fine, but if
we're just using it to drag up examples of how our grandfathers treated each
other like crap to use as excuses for why we should treat each other like crap,
then I think we're making a big mistake.
Yeah, maybe somebody's grandfather tossed one of my relatives into an
internment camp, and maybe somebody else's grandfather shot one of your
relatives for entertainment, but guess what? Those people aren't around, and
you and I have our own lives to lead.
With regards to the word "Oriental," I gather that for you the word has some
negative connotations and I can respect that. For me, it doesn't. Oh, and
please don't make assumptions in the future that I'm some ignorant ass who
doesn't know what he's talking about (this makes a second time, I believe). Or
am I being too sensitive? (I suppose it's entirely possible- you may not have
meant "most Asians who know their American history" as a slur against my
education)
Waldo
Cay
Must depend where you live and who you know. I live in Canada very near the
US border, and have several Canadian or American "Asian" friends who either
prefer the term "Oriental" or don't care either way.
-Cay
"Mark Chen" <markdan...@att.net> wrote in message
news:Ds6K5.7805$UL.4...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Cay
Heheh, I had a good laugh when I read the original post because I knew what
your heritage was Waldoou. (You mentioned it somewhere in a previous
thread.) I was waiting to see your reply!
Sorry, to the original poster, but it was one of those comical "Doh!"
statements -- esp. the "...as would you...".
-Cay
"Waldoou812" <waldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001026212422...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Matt Holmes
- m.h.
hahntsak wrote:
--
Matt Holmes
- m.h.
hahntsak wrote:
--
Matt Holmes
dwarf! hehe
"Eh, the dwarf'll bloody dew it!"
Cay wrote:
--
Matt Holmes
- m.h.
"N. M. Wallace" wrote:
--
Matt Holmes
Kevin Patrick wrote:
--
Derville
Cay <kennaway...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HvRJ5.68926$oN2.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> Exactly!
>
> This has nothing to do with ethics, morals or political
correctness -- it's
> all about marketing. And as long as no one tries to take away
Bioware's
> artistic freedom, or handcuff them into political correctness, then
their
> game content will continue to be dictated by....marketing!
>
> This reminds me so much of the old male/female main character
debate. Only
> the game companies now realize that female CRPG players make up a
large
> enough portion of the market that it is profitable to accomodate
them with
> female main characters. Apparently, the same companies don't
believe that
> it would be profitable to address a potential homosexual share of
the
> market.
>
> -Cay
Well, as I've said, ever since I found that females in Fallout 2 had
access to an extra source of income, I've always preferred to use
women as my characters. Partly is the idea that from my point of
view, a woman is more likely to get information out of the male
dominated world of Amn, by fluttering her eyelashes or whatever
(always turns me to jelly, that trick). And partly is the fact that
I've got a lot of female custom portraits, which even put Safana in
the shade ;-).
But hey, on the whole homosexual content issue, why should it be
there? I mean, is it in any way rleevant to have such content there
to further the plot in any way? Admittedly the heterosexual content
only furthers a sub-plot, but are we really at the stage of political
correctness, hide behind calling everyone a "person" and "vertically
challenged" people instead of dwarves, that we have to make sure all
minority groups are represented in a game? From where I'm standing, I
would put the issue of addressing homosexuality in a CRPG right up
there with the infancy of nuclear physics research or contemporary
attitudes to premature baldness. I'd agree that there's a marketing
issue in there as well (posters showing an elven kensai and Anomen
holding hands would attract more confused stares than a poster showing
a kensai hitting a dragon with his sword), but I'd rather think that
they just didn't give any consideration to the issue, just as I find
myself giving no thought to sexual orientation while playing games.
Give me escapism, and the chance to hit dragons with blunt
instruments, but please leave the nitpicking arguments on the most
insignificant of topics to one side for when I choose to re-enter the
real world.
It's probably worth pointing out as well that I have no problem with
homosexuality per se. If an individual is a prat, then he's a prat
regardless of sexuality, and similarly he's a good guy regardless of
sexuality. Nothing like categorising people according to one
character trait, but I think I'll stick to the test of niceness to
decide what I think of people rather than the test of sexual
orientation.
OK, rant over. Move along, nothing to see here.
--
P.
(Remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Read the alt.games.baldurs-gate Usage Guidelines:
www.demonspawn.net/bg/usage.htm
Ghost Who Walks
> Must depend where you live and who you know. I live in Canada very near the
> US border, and have several Canadian or American "Asian" friends who either
> prefer the term "Oriental" or don't care either way.
The word 'oriental' has been objectized, not sure what year. If someone has a
problem with that, then take it up with Webster.
Mark Chen
Sorry if I offended you. If you knew me, then you'd know that offending
people is something I try not to do *ever.* And I regretted what I wrote
immediately after I hit "post." But you are right, if the world were
perfect, then everyone would be judged for their own actions rather than
their forefathers' and all meaning from words would be taken from relevant
context. Unfortunately, I personally know a *hellofalot* of Asians who
would never, ever prefer the word Oriental for the very reasons you point
out and for other histories to boot (like English).
My girlfriend pointed out that the word Oriental is technically incorrect
since it is defined as something from the east rather than something from
Asia, and was originally used by Europeans as a way of saying "us" and
"them," trying to put emphasis not just on exoticness, but also on
inferiorness. "Them" being us Orientals.
But this whole thread started out as something on gay romances in BG2, and I
treat that topic just as I treat the topic of racism in computer games. I
find them both to be extremely unimportant since most of the time, I'd wager
that the programmers didn't even think of it. I only got into this thread
because I wanted to point out some incorrectness in the original poster's
comment on the "gay community."
Grammatical errors aside, here is my response to you, and I hope that we
don't become enemies. Please call me Mark.
mark
PS. the thing that makes me the most pissed off about how other people treat
me due to my ethnic background is the fact that I get solicitation by
telephone, by email, and by snail mail in Chinese. It's so ironic that
other Chinese people are giving me the most shit for being Chinese! And
they don't even hire bilingual people so I can't ask them to take me off
their phone lists because I don't know enough Mandarin! And the emails I
get are encoded in this funky character set which is unreadable with pine,
so I can't even ask to unsubscribe!
--
Mark Danger Chen | Web Guy | (503) 231-1314
"Waldoou812" <waldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001027090121...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
CCC
>Maybe most of the Orientals <you> know, Mr. Chen (Chinese?) would prefer
>"Asian," but some of us never really got on that whole political correctness
>bandwagon.
>
:-)
Thanks for your posts Waldo - your response to the orignal "Orientals"
post was one of those rare moments that are sometimes engineered in
books and TV, but which rarely crop up so neatly in real life!
My own experience of "PC" is not racial (I'm just your average grubby
brownish off-pink Australian) but in the disability area. I retired
from business life a few years early to be a full time carer for my
handicapped son (my wife works) and I often come up against the same
labelling claptrap. Over the years the term that's currently
'politically correct' changes fairly regularly. 'Slow learner'
'crippled' 'xyz challenged' etc all come and go. I think that the
current term here is now "disabled".
Coming from an engineering background I tend to think of 'disabled' as
meaning not working, so I tend to use 'handicapped', which in
layman's terms carries imagery of making a person (or horse) carry an
extra burden or start the race behind the others. You are still in the
race though, and you can still win! The word itself really doesn't
matter though, it's how you say it that really carries the message.
Although I tend not to rise to the bait on disability issues (I once
had a golden opportunity when I got ticked off at a meeting for saying
"handicapped" - but I let it pass) but I do have some fun occasionally
on the gender role issue.
Somewhat naughty I know, but I have allowed people to rail on about
sexism, whilst I staunchly maintained a defence of 'traditional
roles'. I say that my wife and I are very happy with traditional roles
and think that it's fine to have one as the 'breadwinner' and one as
'home-maker'. I say that if someone has worked all day they are
perfectly entitled to flop down at home in front of the TV with a
drink and have the home-maker cook the meal, wash up, clean the house,
do the laundry etc.
Right about the point where they accuse me of being a sexist male
chauvinist pig, I sweetly and innocently let it slip that it's
actually me (the male) that's the 'home-maker'. What a bastard eh?!
All the best to all you gays, Orientals, Asians, handicapped, <space
to add a few hundred other classifications> oddballs, and plain old
whitey straights out there. :-)
Chris C.
CCC
>
>My girlfriend pointed out that the word Oriental is technically incorrect
>since it is defined as something from the east rather than something from
>Asia, and was originally used by Europeans as a way of saying "us" and
>"them," trying to put emphasis not just on exoticness, but also on
>inferiorness. "Them" being us Orientals.
>
Excuse me for jumping in on your response to Waldo. I think that you
are right in some ways about how "Orient" was used - but it did also
have many positive uses. Many companies in earlier years even used the
term Orient in their business names to denote attractive issues such
as travel, adventure, exotic and interesting cultures, etc.
The other side of the coin was that for a while the term 'oriental'
was regular prefaced with 'wily' - meant as a put down. It's really
all in the emphasis intended by the speaker rather than the actual
word. I remember that when the early hippies were branded 'freaks'
they responded by embracing the term with enthusiasm and turned it
into a positive term amongst their group.
Here in Australia we use the word "mate" to mean just about anything.
I can say "let's go for a beer, mate" in a tone that suggests that I'm
talking to my very best friend in the world. However, I can also say
"If you don't back off right now mate, I'm going to ram your teeth so
far down your throat you're going to have to stick your hand up your
arse to bite your nails..." and clearly have the opposite meaning.
Oh, and by the way, Australia is in the Asia\Pacific region so can I
call myself 'Oriental' or must I stick to Occidental (don't hear that
one much do you?) even though I am not from the Occident (Europe and
Americas) . Maybe us Aussies can compromise and call ourselves
'Accidentals'. ;-)
Chris C.
SWong
wrote:
>mark
>PS. the thing that makes me the most pissed off about how other people treat
>me due to my ethnic background is the fact that I get solicitation by
>telephone, by email, and by snail mail in Chinese. It's so ironic that
>other Chinese people are giving me the most shit for being Chinese! And
>they don't even hire bilingual people so I can't ask them to take me off
>their phone lists because I don't know enough Mandarin! And the emails I
>get are encoded in this funky character set which is unreadable with pine,
>so I can't even ask to unsubscribe!
I just send all the chinese spam to http://spamcop.net along with the
spanish spam I get.
Waldoou812
No problem. I'm not offended- I have WAY too often accidentally pissed people
off with purely innocent comments to take offense from someone who points out
that he wasn't intending to piss me off. I know a lot of people tend to take
things way too seriously online, as if every word written is a diatribe against
them and their perceived failings. Well, let's just say I have way too
personal faults and issues to take things personally. Friends?
Oh, and by the way... I guess a couple points are in order- after I got to
thinking about my response to you, I realized that while the term "Oriental"
sounded more exotic to me, and seemed (at first) to be an interesting label, it
also made me think of rugs instead of people. Given that I'm a slight bit more
three-dimensional than a rug, I suppose I'll concede that "Asian" does sound
more accurate. Allow me though, if you will, the conceit of liking the term
Oriental. Aside from the floor covering connotations, I also tend to think of
mystical creatures like dragons, wizards, and samurai warriors, so I still like
it. I guess most of the prejudices I grew up with came from folks who weren't
sufficiently educated to understand four-syllable words like "Oriental."
The second point is that I probably should have mentioned something about my
heritage prior to saying the word. Kinda like the first time I heard a black
man say, "Yo, nigger, what's up?" I was rather shocked, of course, thinking
that was entirely inappropriate, but as we all know, I guess it's considered
socially acceptable for those of us who are targets of various racial or sexist
slurs to make use of them ourselves. Though that sort of usage does raise a
number of questions by itself.
And please call me Waldo (or George, if you prefer).
Waldo
Waldoou812
for the Nintendo and was horribly cheesy, was also one of my favorites at the
time.
I remember a CRPG from a long time back called "Deathlord" (at least I think
that was the title) that actually was a game based on feudal Japan. If I
remember correctly, it was very similar in style to Wasteland (and came out
around that time) and featured character classes like samurai, ninjas, sohei,
etc. Unfortunately, after playing it for only a day or so, I lost the disk
(and never replaced it).
Waldo
Unknown User
wrote:
>Genghis Khan is my hero. ;-)
>
I had forgotten about this game. I played it on NES years ago and I
had heard that it was released for PC but I've never seen it. Can
anyone confirm it's out there for PC?
jb
Mike
One horrible euphemism I have heard a lot of recently is "otherwise
enabled". Blecch. The books on etiquette state that any euphemism is a
social no-no, in theory at least. As for Oriental, the Oxford English
(that's English english) Dictionary lists it as meaning pertaining to
the East, or a person originating therefrom. It's a literal translation,
but there's no reason to believe it has been bastardised anyway. Much
less embarassing than calling a Japanese person Chinese etc. Then again,
there are so many people around the world that think England and Britain
are the same place too (never call a Scotsman English).
Any name or euphemism (especially) can get hijacked and made
perjorative, no matter how many political correctness committees and
boards work on it. Paki is usually taken to be a derogatory term, but
Brit isn't (not by the British anyway) which raises another complexity
about the ability of the people concerned to use it...
Anyway, try being English, white and male! We are always the ones that
get portrayed as baddies in films, morally bankrupt and generally the
person thats ok to kill! Compare and contrast with Japanese black jewish
lesbians! :o)
Mike
Belit
statistically dubious - (putting per capita in makes it LOOK as if
he's got the faintest idea what he (or she) is talking aboutdon't you
think? :-) )
without responding directly to it.... Sparta springs to mind as an
almost relevant example
On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:00:42 -0700, hahntsak <hahn...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
N. M. Wallace
Oh, yeah. Mrrrr...I don't know about most women, but I find the idea of
a couple of cute boys together to be incredibly hot.
However (to drag this kicking and screaming back on topic), I don't want
to imagine most of the male NPC's in BG2 together...*shudder* Korgan and
Jan? Minsc, Boo, and anybody? Though maybe Haer'Dalis and Anomen...or
Anomen and his brother knight, Keldorn. Hmmm...maybe now we know why
Keldorn spends so much time away from home...
Nancy
N. M. Wallace
> >
> >No, it's just the standard hetboy fantasy of getting it on with the hot
> >kinky bi babes. Mind you, the times I've been in that situation, us bi
> >babes were more interested in each other than the boys.
>
> Nancy, do you have the slightest clue just how much that statement turns on
> guys like me? Rock on, sister!
>
> Personally, I could never understand what you women ever see in us guys...
>
> Oh, and by the way... I don't suppose you live in Colorado,
Nope.
> would like to e-mail me your telephone number,
Maybe, but I try to avoid LDR's these days. It's too hard on both the
credit card and the heart.
> and are free next Friday night?
Unlikely. I'm only just starting chapter 5, after all...
(Yeah, I'm a geel grrrl. Got a problem with that?)
> just kidding, Nancy - no offense intended.
None taken. :)
qibbish
>homosexuals in 15th century England...
Umm..
#1) BG isn't set in England
#2) Read a history book, they had them then as well
(a lot in the knight orders.. knights of the templar were disbanded
because of this in the 14th century, but other issues really were at
play).
#3) your tense is wrong.. I could have made a really cool joke about
that, and everybody would have liked me.. but I decided to do the
number list game instead.. ohh well, that is that for creativity, eh?
(:: qiB ::)
qibbish
btw- in my fo2 experiences, my female character made it with bishop's
daughter in new reno.
(:: qiB ::)
qibbish
>>>I often thought this was a bug in the game, but it was incredibly funny
>>>to watch the wedding service with the two female characters :-)
It might be that they just didn't have the script test against the sex
variable. Regardless, i think it is damn cool that they did this..
(:: qiB ::)
qibbish
(i.e. everything is subjective, nothing is correct).
Just one bit I wanted to add:
"Are the first lot evil? Are they bigoted
and nasty people because their instincts seem to be telling them that
homosexuality is wrong? Perhaps, are they misinformed, or naive, or just
plain delusional (remember the Salem witch trials)? Who's to say.
Certainly not me. "
Replace the word homosexuality with "jew" or "black person"..
do you have an answer now? what is the difference (if any).
Just some word play from your buddy,
(:: qiB ::)
qibbish
unbalance between the number of male and female potential relationships
(even though
more males exist in the game for potential relationships to form).
I played a girl in BG1, and now she has matured into a young lady..
BUT, no romance related dialog has occured.. not even
ONCE (I've kept my party pretty much the same.. mincs, valygar and
yoshi should be potentials... but they never make a peep).
[[ qibbish thought: Maybe charisma plays a role in this.. I am pretty but
ugly. ]]
I have a few issues with the way bioware chose to depict woman, but it all
boils down to the fact that it is their game and not mine.
qibbish
So it boils down to cold hard cash...gain a smaller percentage of gay
community approval, or lose a possibly larger percentage of those who do not
care about such content. "
Come on, it isn't like they would be advertising it on the box.
Do you really think anybody would stop playing and sell the game if it
had a gay related subsect?
anyway,
Like we said, FO2 had homosexual options, and I never heard
anybody make a stink about it.
(:: qiB ::)
qibbish
I think Minsc and Boo are happy enough without anybody else involved (why do
you think he squeeks so much?)..
* shudder*... ehh.. nasty mental images..
(:: qiB ::)
Mark Blunden
news:Os9KkNERAHA.324@cpmsnbbsa09...
> Forget homosexuality, has anybody noticed a significant
> unbalance between the number of male and female potential relationships
> (even though
> more males exist in the game for potential relationships to form).
>
> I played a girl in BG1, and now she has matured into a young lady..
> BUT, no romance related dialog has occured.. not even
> ONCE (I've kept my party pretty much the same.. mincs, valygar and
> yoshi should be potentials... but they never make a peep).
I'm afraid female characters only get Anomen for their romance options.
I guess it just comes down to statistics - a lot more people will be playing
male characters than female, and all those character interactions take a lot
of programming time, plus the conceptualising, scripting and voice-acting of
different dialogue options, so they put in the most effort where it would be
most used. I think that's also why there are only 3 evil characters, because
they knew that more people would play good characters.
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* Just erotic. Nothing kinky. It's the difference between using a feather
and using a chicken.
Mark Blunden
> "
> So it boils down to cold hard cash...gain a smaller percentage of gay
> community approval, or lose a possibly larger percentage of those who do
not
> care about such content. "
>
> Come on, it isn't like they would be advertising it on the box.
> Do you really think anybody would stop playing and sell the game if it
> had a gay related subsect?
I think it's more a case of having lots to program and only so much time.
Consider how much goes into a character interaction in BG2. First, they've
got to script the dialogue to match the character, then they've got to find
appropriate points in the game for it to come up, they've got to make sure
the character in question is interacting in-character with the other NPCs as
well as your PC, then when they've got the lines scripted it's got to be
voice-acted and finally those dialogue options must be programmed in and
play-tested. That's a great deal of effort (and it almost certainly accounts
for the rather lower NPC count in BG2 than in BG) for a set of interactions
that only a small percentage of BG2 players will desire.
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* Hey, what does this button do?
Waldoou812
>> community approval, or lose a possibly larger percentage of those who do
>not
>> care about such content. "
>>
>> Come on, it isn't like they would be advertising it on the box.
>> Do you really think anybody would stop playing and sell the game if it
>> had a gay related subsect?
>
>I think it's more a case of having lots to program and only so much time.
>Consider how much goes into a character interaction in BG2.
Sounds pretty dubious. I'm not a programmer (nor do I play one on t.v.), but I
am something of a mathematical guru, and flow-charting a logic process is
child's play for me.
Everything you speak of with regards to programming in a homosexual
relationship EXCEPT for the fact that there is no reference anywhere that I am
aware of to any gender-based pronouns in Aerie's romantic interactions with the
PC (being that this one was the only one I pursued to any great length, it's
also the only one I know of).
Think of it this way. If you and I are in the middle of some sort of
relationship, it is highly doubtful that I will ever call you "sir" or "ma'am."
I will instead probably call you by your name (which is just another variable
and not at all dependent on the PC's gender) or by some sort of pet name (which
again is not gender-dependent).
Now I haven't actually played a female PC yet, so I haven't pursued the Anomen
relationship, and I also have never been involved in a homosexual relationship,
so I'm an expert on neither subject, but I cannot see what would be so terribly
difficult about just leaving out a few lines of code which consider a PC's
gender prior to determining whether an NPC will hit on you or not. At least
with Aerie, every one of those dialog options would have worked in a lesbian
relationship, and I cannot understand what would be so difficult about having
all four NPC "possibilities" hitting on my character.
Waldo
Waldoou812
>
>Nope.
>
>> would like to e-mail me your telephone number,
>
>Maybe, but I try to avoid LDR's these days. It's too hard on both the
>credit card and the heart.
>
Ahh, it figures- I never manage to get involved with any really <interesting>
women. Just <evil> ones.
>> and are free next Friday night?
>
>Unlikely. I'm only just starting chapter 5, after all...
>
>(Yeah, I'm a geel grrrl. Got a problem with that?)
>
Yeah, I understand- I finished the game and am not totally up for the idea of
starting again (I was actually completely burnt out on BG, and <only> bought
this game because of the inclusion of the kensai character kit- I might play it
again because of the NPC interactions, though). However, I am growing
nostalgic for Jagged Alliance 2 again (my all-time favorite).
As for being a "geel grrrl," I don't have a clue what that is... Is it
something sick, twisted, and perverted? If it isn't, I'd be highly
disappointed...
:-P
Waldo
Adam Cameron
Question:
Is this a mission-critical quest, or an optional one?
I'm playing a female (Bob... it's short for Kate), and I'm sure as
shit not going to have anything to do with that twerp Anomen.
Am I sunk?
Adam
Geoffrey Brent
> Sounds pretty dubious. I'm not a programmer (nor do I play one on t.v.), but I
> am something of a mathematical guru, and flow-charting a logic process is
> child's play for me.
>
> Everything you speak of with regards to programming in a homosexual
> relationship EXCEPT for the fact that there is no reference anywhere that I am
> aware of to any gender-based pronouns in Aerie's romantic interactions with the
> PC (being that this one was the only one I pursued to any great length, it's
> also the only one I know of).
And it really wouldn't matter if there were. Playing
with Shadowkeeper's inventory editor reveals
an item that reads something like this:
Dagger of <CHARNAME>
This dagger was created for <CHARNAME> by
<PRONHIS_HER> apprentices...
The game already records which pronouns should
be used - if your character is a male called Tom,
that comes out as "Dagger of Tom... this dagger
was created for Tom by his apprentices." So BGII
is already capable of dealing with sex-dependent
pronouns. There are plenty of minor characters who
say things like "I am looking for <your name here>
and his friends", or "...and her friends", dependent
on PC's sex (although there are also one or two
spots where the programmers forgot.)
> Think of it this way. If you and I are in the middle of some sort of
> relationship, it is highly doubtful that I will ever call you "sir" or "ma'am."
Unless the relationship is a kinky one, which is a
distinct possibility with many of BGII's NPCs ;-)
Geoffrey Brent
Twin Ion Engine
you can do a lot of things that would definitely make others cringe, like the
violence, the fact that you can do child-killing, prostitution, etc ....
Also, remember that FO2 did not sell very well, despite the fact that its
definitely a better RPG than BG2. I believe the adult theme contributed to
that.
You will be surprised how many society is strongly anti-gay, you think
starcraft would sell a million copies in Korea, for example, if there are
strong homosexual theme?
I would be surprise a game that has strong homosexual theme would not cause a
big hoo-ha in strongly religious or strongly conservative society. And the
last I look, more than 2/3 of the world has anti-gay laws.
And I'm glad Bioware leave the subject out, because all I want is to play AD&D
RPG and I could not care for any controversy that would come out of adding
homosexual theme.
Just imagine how much a box office Titanic will be if say Leonardo DiCaprio
and Brad Pitt ... and tell me its not a big deal.
I'm not saying homosexual theme is bad ... I'm saying its a bad idea to
include it if you want to make your game appeal to a greater audience/player
and thus generate more income.
In article <#dxdQPERAHA.249@cpmsnbbsa09>, "qibbish" <new_...@email.msn.com>
wrote:
Geoffrey Brent
> That's because FO2 did not make it a big deal...its very subtle.
There's nothing subtle about losing an arm-wrestling
match with a mutant and waking up with a ball-gag in
your mouth.
> You will be surprised how many society is strongly anti-gay, you think
> starcraft would sell a million copies in Korea, for example, if there are
> strong homosexual theme?
Put it this way: if you include male-male sex in a game,
yes, you'll probably drive away a few of your customers.
But mention the possibility of female-female sex, and
you'll have to beat the drooling fanboys off with a stick.
> And I'm glad Bioware leave the subject out, because all I want is to play AD&D
> RPG and I could not care for any controversy that would come out of adding
> homosexual theme.
>
> Just imagine how much a box office Titanic will be if say Leonardo DiCaprio
> and Brad Pitt ... and tell me its not a big deal.
Brad Pitt? "Interview With The Vampire" featured fairly
obvious homoerotic overtones between Pitt & Tom Cruise,
and grossed $220 million (US) worldwide, plus another
$50m in rentals. There are a lot of people out there who
either don't mind if a movie has homosexual elements, or
find it a definite positive.
Geoffrey Brent
qibbish
I agree... BUT:
>First, they've
>got to script the dialogue to match the character,
true.. that should take about 3 minutes to code, once they have a template
based off of another character. Most of the time is more artistic effort
(actual txt) then code, really.
>then they've got to find
>appropriate points in the game for it to come up,
You really think this was hard to figure out? Granted, I've yet to see even
one example of the BG romance style, but if it is like the other random
dialog scripts, they trigger when the character isn't loading into a
dangerous situation, and isn't engaging in actions. Mainly, they
seem to trigger when you stand around, without pausing, for too long.
> they've got to make sure
>the character in question is interacting in-character with the other >NPCs
as
>well as your PC,
this falls into #1..
>then when they've got the lines scripted it's got to be
>voice-acted
it doesn't HAVE to be voice acted.. who wrote that rule?
>and finally those dialogue options must be programmed in
#1 again..
>and
>play-tested.
so? everything needs to be play tested.
>That's a great deal of effort (and it almost certainly accounts
>for the rather lower NPC count in BG2 than in BG) for a set of
>interactions
>that only a small percentage of BG2 players will desire.
The only thing you really said that I feel warrented the low number was the
voice acting bit, as audio eats HUGE amounts of space..
(tis a waste, I'd rather just read txt)..
ahh.. back zork.
(:: qiB ::)
CCC
>However (to drag this kicking and screaming back on topic), I don't want
>to imagine most of the male NPC's in BG2 together...*shudder* Korgan and
>Jan? Minsc, Boo, and anybody? Though maybe Haer'Dalis and Anomen...or
>Anomen and his brother knight, Keldorn. Hmmm...maybe now we know why
>Keldorn spends so much time away from home...
I know just what you mean. But should it be more difficult to imagine
Korgan & Jan? Like you I've misplaced my copy of the Gay Agenda (I
loved your comment on that!) but I have a feeling that I should be
able to see them that way. In the world I know, most of the gay (and
straight couples) are much more like Korgan and Jan than the pretty
boys in BG2. And in fact I don't have trouble imagining Korgan and Jan
living together.
The public seem perfectly happy to accept depictions of male gays as
long as they are portrayed as mincing, squealing pretty boys in the
tradition of "Are you being served" or the outrageous queen style.
What seems to make many people uncomfortable as hell is the notion
that the local welder, or somebody's wrinkled old auntie could also be
capable of (and entitled to) a regular loving same sex relationship.
Whether I'm gay myself, or whether I'm straight, shouldn't alter my
view - or should it? (happy to tell if asked!).
BTW, did anybody else think that most of the male portraits on offer
looked like gay stereotypes anyway? Many of them reminded me of those
beautiful men who play romantic leads in soap operas, but turn out to
be gay.
Chris C.
I believe I've found the missing link between animal
and civilised man. It is us.
Konrad Lorenz. (1903-1989).
Twin Ion Engine
want to see hot lesbian action....which really is a fantasy for most hetero
guy.
In article <3a010914...@news.uwa.edu.au>,
Mark Blunden
news:20001101202724...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
> Now I haven't actually played a female PC yet, so I haven't pursued the
> Anomen relationship, and I also have never been involved in a homosexual
> relationship, so I'm an expert on neither subject, but I cannot see what
> would be so terribly difficult about just leaving out a few lines of code
> which consider a PC's gender prior to determining whether an NPC will hit
> on you or not. At least with Aerie, every one of those dialog options
> would have worked in a lesbian relationship, and I cannot understand what
> would be so difficult about having all four NPC "possibilities" hitting
> on my character.
I hadn't actually considered such an option, and role-playing wise, I
wouldn't want to. I intend to play BG2 through a few times, and I expect the
characters to behave consistently in each game - and while I can easily
accept the possibility of a couple of the NPCs being gay, I think that
making all of them bisexual is stretching the bounds of probability.
No, if the game's creators were going to include a homosexual relationship,
I would want them to actually script it as homosexual, not just cobble it
together from the existing heterosexual ones.
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* Our troops will impregnate your dairy animals, and laugh at your human
dress sense!
N. M. Wallace
> >Unlikely. I'm only just starting chapter 5, after all...
> >
> >(Yeah, I'm a geel grrrl. Got a problem with that?)
> >
>
> Yeah, I understand- I finished the game and am not totally up for the idea of
> starting again (I was actually completely burnt out on BG, and <only> bought
> this game because of the inclusion of the kensai character kit- I might play it
> again because of the NPC interactions, though). However, I am growing
> nostalgic for Jagged Alliance 2 again (my all-time favorite).
>
> As for being a "geel grrrl," I don't have a clue what that is... Is it
> something sick, twisted, and perverted? If it isn't, I'd be highly
> disappointed...
While I have nbeen accused of being sick, twisted, and perverted, and
sometimes even all three at once, I'm afraid that in this case, it was a
typo. SHould have been "geek grrrl."
Waldoou812
>sometimes even all three at once, I'm afraid that in this case, it was a
>typo. SHould have been "geek grrrl."
Ooo... a geek. Like me!
Reminds me of something my ultra-fundamentalist Christian friend Gene once told
me about my taste in women - he said I was "predatory," since I tended to very
attracted to geeky types- women who were shy or less self-confident- in his
view, "weak." For a while, I considered that he might be right, until I
eventually realized that what I was attracted to wasn't "weak," but "like me."
Believe it or not, while I'm typically a very outgoing person with no obvious
lack of self-confidence, the fact is that I do tend to be somewhat less
confident around women I'm highly attracted to (although given the events of
the last week, I'm thinking that might not be true anymore- I'm not really
sure).
Either way, I was definitely a geek for quite some time.
Waldo
Jennaii
the war...
>After
>all, if I read your last name correctly as Chinese (or at least as not being
>Japanese), then I'd say that they dropped the bomb (two of them, of course)
>on
>MY country, not yours.
"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii
Waldoou812
>started
>the war...
Sorry about your uncle, but what are you trying to say here? Just curious.
Waldo
Graeme Dice
>
<snip>
> >A typical american outlook on what started the war.
> >The Japanese were not unprovoked. They weren't provoked, either. It
> >was an error in translation. What I've been told, in my history
> >classes, is that there was some communication between the two
> >countries, and the americans sent a poorly translated message that
> >could be taken in a couple of ways. The Japanese took it the wrong
> >way, and ended up attacking.
>
> What about the oil embargo? Some might argue that the Japanese were backed
> into a corner and had nowhere else to go.
<snip>
> However, I would like to point out that while I personally think we were right
> in dropping the bomb on Japan, I cannot for the life of me understand why we
> didn't do so on Nazi Germany. If ever a government represented true evil in
> human form, they were it. Yet there is <still> that empathy we feel towards
> folks who are "like us." Honestly, I think it's nothing whatsoever other than
> racism.
The first atomic bomb test was on July 16, 1945. VE day is May 8,
1945. Germany was defeated a full month before the first atomic bomb
was tested. Little Boy and Fat Man were dropped on August 6th and 9th
respectively.
Graeme Dice
--
When I find my code in tons of touble,
Friends and colleagues come to me,
Speaking words of wisdom:
"Write in C"
--(to the tune of "Let it Be")
--Author Unknown
Jennaii
unprovoked, attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbor. (That's in Hawaii).
America DID NOT start the war with Japan. It seems there's a little confusion
about this...
>Sorry about your uncle, but what are you trying to say here? Just curious.
>Waldo
>
Jan Sacharuk
>I'm trying to say that the Americans didn't attack Japan first. The Japanese,
>unprovoked, attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbor. (That's in Hawaii).
>America DID NOT start the war with Japan. It seems there's a little confusion
>about this...
A typical american outlook on what started the war.
The Japanese were not unprovoked. They weren't provoked, either. It
was an error in translation. What I've been told, in my history
classes, is that there was some communication between the two
countries, and the americans sent a poorly translated message that
could be taken in a couple of ways. The Japanese took it the wrong
way, and ended up attacking.
The Japanese may have attacked first, but they aren't stupid. They
wouldn't have attacked if they didn't think there was a good reason
to.
Boy, is this ever off-topic.
JS
--
====================== j...@cs.ualberta.ca ======================
Jan Sacharuk President, Undergraduate Association of CS @ UofA
Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Surviving is instinct.
Living takes guts. "
- Lance Armstrong
Waldoou812
>Japanese,
>>unprovoked, attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbor. (That's in Hawaii).
>>America DID NOT start the war with Japan. It seems there's a little
>confusion
>>about this...
>
>A typical american outlook on what started the war.
>The Japanese were not unprovoked. They weren't provoked, either. It
>was an error in translation. What I've been told, in my history
>classes, is that there was some communication between the two
>countries, and the americans sent a poorly translated message that
>could be taken in a couple of ways. The Japanese took it the wrong
>way, and ended up attacking.
What about the oil embargo? Some might argue that the Japanese were backed
into a corner and had nowhere else to go.
What <almost> offends me, though, is the seeming attitude that the Japanese
<deserved> to be nuked whereas the Germans didn't. Oftentimes I've encountered
an attitude wherein people in this country <still> to this day seem to think of
Japanese people (indeed all Asians) as "sub-human," to the degree where it
doesn't really matter if we kill a few million here or there. They just breed
like rabbits anyway, right? No, wait... it's more like "cockroaches." Yes,
that's it- that's what they're usually compared to. The Nazis, on the other
hand... Now there's a decent, upstanding group of blue-eyed, blond-haired guys
who look just like us.
Sorry- obviously I'm taking a view that is <way> extreme. Certainly no one
here has suggested anything of the sort.
However, I would like to point out that while I personally think we were right
in dropping the bomb on Japan, I cannot for the life of me understand why we
didn't do so on Nazi Germany. If ever a government represented true evil in
human form, they were it. Yet there is <still> that empathy we feel towards
folks who are "like us." Honestly, I think it's nothing whatsoever other than
racism.
One might also ask- why put thousands of Japanese Americans into interment
camps, taking away their posessions, their livelihood, and their freedoms, when
you don't do it to German Americans? Or Italian Americans? It's unjust either
way you slice it, but again, it's that attitude of the "Asian menace."
Finally, the Japanese did not start the war. If you've ever read any kind of
history, Adolf Hitler started the war when he invaded Poland. The Japanese,
the Russians, the Italians, the British, etc. (not to mention the U.S.) all got
involved later. WWII was <not> fought from 1941 to 1945. That's the typical
"ignorant American" outlook - (nothing happens of any significance beyond the
borders of this country). We were the "Johnny come lately" who was looking for
any excuse whatsoever to find a way into the thick of things.
FDR (among others) was looking for something- <anything> to give him an excuse
to declare war because he wasn't stupid. He saw what Hitler was doing in
Europe, and he saw what seemed to be inevitable in Britain. Churchill was
getting his butt kicked, but good (though he was a remarkable son of a bitch
for holding everyone together like that- Jesus, that man was a hero in every
sense of the word), and if the US had waited much longer (or if Hitler had been
a little more pugnacious and actually decide to invade Britain in late
1940/early 1941), we'd all be speaking German, and a lot of us maybe have been
shovelled into the ovens. Yet at the time there were massive demonstrations
calling for isolationism, and had he tried to do anything to commit us beyond
what he was already doing (remember the Lend-Lease program? - given your
comment, I'd guess you probably don't), he'd have been cut off at the knees.
The fact is, we were ALREADY in the war, prior to December 7, 1941. Pearl
Harbor just took our gloves off.
From what I've read and studied, Japan (on their side of the globe) saw the US
as a potential threat of enormous magnitude and did not wish to provoke us at
all. The only reason they eventually did is because they saw our entry into
the war as being inevitable. The idea of a "first strike" on our Pacific navy
was tactically brilliant and had our carriers not been away (I can't recall how
many were, but I believe at least two were out of port at the time), they would
have delayed our entry into the Pacific theater for a long enough time that
they would have managed to get the two things they most wanted- land and
resources.
Granted, their subsequent behavior on the Asian mainland wasn't terribly
decent, but please do me the favor of naming one army, EVER, who actually did
behave decently. Care to examine the behavior of US soldiers in Vietnam? How
about asking the villagers of My Lai, for example, what they thought of
Lieutenant Calley and his idea of public relations?
Sheesh... Yet ANOTHER poster who immediately assumes that I'm an uneducated
moron. Tell me, guys- do I have a sign on my head saying I flunked out of the
third grade?
Waldo
Twin Ion Engine
to the Jews and more.
The difference is, the Germans apologised for it, vilified Hitler and outlaw
Nazism. While the Japanese are still teaching their kids right now that the
war is just a regretable incident while their emperor is glorified. Not one
word of apology.
Why is this important? Firstly, if the Japanese do not own up to this aspect,
eventually this is going to be a very good excuse for belligerent countries to
dig up bad blood and start to payback what the Japs did to them and not a few
Asian countries is going to agree to this.
Saying their actions weren't terribly decent is like describing an atomic bomb
just a minor explosion. Even now, the hate still remains among MILLIONS of
Chinese and Koreans who have suffered from the war, directly and indirectly.
Be glad that the Americans dropped only two bombs. If it were the Chinese or
Koreans who has the bomb, Japan would have glowed white until the end of time.
Oh...right, I remember now...the Chinese and Koreans *do* have the bomb now.
All they need is an excuse and the Japanese, by stubbornly refuse to recognise
the war as a war of aggression and continuing to teach their kids about how
*they* were the victims because big bad America drop *da bomb* on them, is
going to seal their fate one day.
If they keep this up, history will repeat itself.
And whatever goes around, comes around.
In article <20001111000817...@ng-mh1.aol.com>, waldo...@aol.com