Going to Spellhold early
Mike Horner
I recently tried a re-play of BG2, with the aim of rescuing Imoen
quickly. I didn't manage it as early as some posters I've seen, but by
about day 40 we were back on the surface. All I did in Ch2 was the
Slaver quest and Trademeet.
BUT - I wonder if anyone else found this - I got the feeling that the
game wasn't really supposed to be played this way. The Underdark was
extremely tough without all the powerful weapons and equipment I
usually have collected when I've done all the Ch2/Ch3 quests, and I
had to resort to (whisper) Shadowkeeper on more than one occasion
And when I finally got out, I then found the remaining city quests a
bit too easy, and the game was "encouraging" me to complete the Bodhi
quest. I'll probably not complete this game, because I'm way too
underpowered (IMO) to tackle Irenicus, and can't be arsed trudging
through the Shadow dungeon / Firkraag dungeon / Unseeing Eye / Planar
Sphere etc.
I'll certainly re-play again - lots of things to try - but this
strategy was IMO a mistake, and unbalanced the game. Anyone agree?
Mike
Vanja Bubic
"Mike Horner" <mvho...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:a913b5a5.03032...@posting.google.com...
I have this doubts all the time, am I ready yet to go for Imoen or should I
do just *one* more quest. But I think that's the thing when you play for the
first time :) I just finished that quests with actors which are held in
prison at another dimension (?) or something like that and I'm wondering now
if I'm ready to go to the graveyard to do the quest Shadow Thieves gave me.
Vanja
J.C. Bengtson
> I recently tried a re-play of BG2, with the aim of rescuing Imoen
> quickly. I didn't manage it as early as some posters I've seen, but by
> about day 40 we were back on the surface. All I did in Ch2 was the
> Slaver quest and Trademeet.
>
>
> And when I finally got out, I then found the remaining city quests a
> bit too easy, and the game was "encouraging" me to complete the Bodhi
> quest. I'll probably not complete this game, because I'm way too
> underpowered (IMO) to tackle Irenicus, and can't be arsed trudging
> through the Shadow dungeon / Firkraag dungeon / Unseeing Eye / Planar
> Sphere etc.
Well, bear in mind that all of those dungeons you just mentioned scale
to your character level. The Shadow dungeon will have liches and other
beasties it wouldn't have had when you were still Level 9 or so, the
Unseeing Eye's domain has many more Beholders and fewer Gauths.. etc.
Of course, some other quests do NOT change based on your level, so
yeah.. those ones will probably be easy for you now.. (generally the
"fetch and go" style escapades..).
And all of this is irrelevant if you installed the "Insane Monster
Patch" from the Tactics mod, which makes the toughest monsters spawn
regardless of your levels.
--
J.C. Bengtson - "Makoru"
* http://home.ptd.net/~golbez
* http://sailorscout.redversusblue.com
Jon Moore
> game wasn't really supposed to be played this way. The Underdark was
> extremely tough without all the powerful weapons and equipment I
> usually have collected when I've done all the Ch2/Ch3 quests, and I
> had to resort to (whisper) Shadowkeeper on more than one occasion
Generally speaking, I would tend to agree with you. I think the game
is definitely set up so that you should attempt the majority of the
Athkatla quests (and Trademeet, Umar Hills, Windspear, etc.) PRIOR to
rescuing Imoen.
In role-playing terms, however, my take on the plot is that a good PC
would want to rescue Imoen as soon as possible, whereas an evil (read
selfish) PC should want to go after Irenicus (for revenge purposes) as
soon as possible.
I tend to finish class-specific quests before going off to Spellhold.
That is, if I am playing a ranger I will finish the Umar Hills, if I
am playing a mage I will do the Planar Sphere, etc.
In any case, the moral is this: do whatever makes the game the most
fun for you. If questing before rescuing Immy makes the game more
enjoyable do that.
Warren
*** endgame spoilers ***
I agree with some of the things you say. I don't think you're
intended, as you say, to go get Imoen early, as the game does
encourage you to push towards the end once you get back. Not only do
you and Imoen have no soul and are slowly but surely dying [and we are
given the impression that it's not so slowly at that], but I can just
envision Ellesime's dream message ... "Irenicus is blasting his way
through the city, destroying everyone and everything in his way, yet
we should be able to hold him here indefinitely at this tree until you
manage to make it our way .... no rush!" :) The only time I've
finished SOA, I didn't complete a lot of the quests for this very
reason, I just *had* to get to the end of the story to see what
happens.
On the flip side, I *want* to get get Imoen back in my party and tool
around and kick butt with her. If you wait until you've done
everything you can do before going to rescue her, then she's terribly
under-powered for the end game compared to the rest of the party. It
is possible to go fairly early and not be too underpowered for the
Underdark. While I've only finished SOA once, I've been far enough to
get to the Underdark a number of times. I think if you finish a
couple major quests, then the Underdark isn't too unreasonable.
I don't really agree with the endgame being unbalanced if you go too
early. Sure, the little stuff is pretty piddly, but some of the
quests scale pretty well. For instance, the Beholder cult, if you do
it before you go to the Underdark, at one point you cross a bridge and
need to face a couple Gauths, I think. The one time I did it after
coming back, I had to face 3 Beholders, and about 5-6 Gauths at that
same spot .... kicked my butt big-time in spite of some of the
equipment my party weilded. Also, some of the battles in the Beholder
lair were far more brutal than anything I'd faced in the Underdark. I
don't think it's a lack of challenge after you get back. Maybe now
that I've been through the game once and know what's coming at the end
.... and know they'll wait indefinitely for me to get there, then I
won't mind doing the left-over quests with Imoen before heading to the
endgame. But, for the first time through, you're definitely going
against the grain if you head off to get Imoen too early.
My $.02. :)
Warren
T.J....@durham.ac.uk
> And all of this is irrelevant if you installed the "Insane Monster
> Patch" from the Tactics mod, which makes the toughest monsters spawn
> regardless of your levels.
Is that its official name? :)
I like that part of Tactics. It means you're guaranteed Foebane.
Tom
--
You mean my sun-dried tomato himself?
-Dan and Nick
Jonathan K.
>BUT - I wonder if anyone else found this - I got the feeling that the
>game wasn't really supposed to be played this way. The Underdark was
>extremely tough without all the powerful weapons and equipment I
>usually have collected when I've done all the Ch2/Ch3 quests, and I
>had to resort to (whisper) Shadowkeeper on more than one occasion
I know this dilemma too because I recently faced it. I really wanted
to get Nalia ditched for Imoen before she piled on too many XP, and
sure enough, I was righteously pissed when my L13 party found Imoen
with only about 750,000 XP.
This time I compromised. I wanted to have some side quest stuff to do
when I got out, since it seems like the game basically starts to
railroad you to an end once you first take a ride with Saemon. But I
reckoned that it would be very fun to punk on Drow with Carsomyr.
We'll save the Unseeing Eye, Haer'Dalis' stuff, Kangaxx, all that
until we get back topside (like we have a choice at this point).
One thing that amazes me about the game is just how flexibly it *can*
be played. About the only thing I really don't like is that for what,
three chapters, you are basically locked onto a path. You can skip
parts of it, but you cannot take a break from it. I don't fault the
designers, just that it's pretty wearying not to be able to just go
back to one's stronghold or the Copper, sell gear, stash gear, and so
on.
jkk
Mike Horner
>
> Well, bear in mind that all of those dungeons you just mentioned scale
> to your character level. The Shadow dungeon will have liches and other
> beasties it wouldn't have had when you were still Level 9 or so, the
> Unseeing Eye's domain has many more Beholders and fewer Gauths.. etc.
>
> Of course, some other quests do NOT change based on your level, so
> yeah.. those ones will probably be easy for you now.. (generally the
> "fetch and go" style escapades..).
>
> And all of this is irrelevant if you installed the "Insane Monster
> Patch" from the Tactics mod, which makes the toughest monsters spawn
> regardless of your levels.
Hmm. I didn't realise they scaled up like that. I tried Windspear and
didn't notice any difference, but that's pretty linear anyway, and
doesn't have anything too nasty (apart from Mr F, of course).
Thanks.
Mike
Mike Horner
>>
> One thing that amazes me about the game is just how flexibly it *can*
> be played. About the only thing I really don't like is that for what,
> three chapters, you are basically locked onto a path. You can skip
> parts of it, but you cannot take a break from it. I don't fault the
> designers, just that it's pretty wearying not to be able to just go
> back to one's stronghold or the Copper, sell gear, stash gear, and so
> on.
>
> jkk
Couldn't agree more - it's a superbly open-ended game and one which
I've played through many times now. Funny, when I first played it, I
was impatient to advance the plot, and found Ch2/3 interminable, but
now I feel a pang when I realise that the next step is Suldanesselar
(?sp) and we're almost done.
Mike
J.C. Bengtson
> Hmm. I didn't realise they scaled up like that. I tried Windspear and
> didn't notice any difference, but that's pretty linear anyway, and
> doesn't have anything too nasty (apart from Mr F, of course).
The Iron Golem in the secret room becomes an Adamantium Golem if you're
of a high level, and there's some goblins or something that become orcs
as well. Oh yes, and Vampires.. there's a LOT of Vampires in that one
room before you get the Chapel Key that aren't there when you're at a
low level..
istara
> I've played through many times now. Funny, when I first played it, I
> was impatient to advance the plot, and found Ch2/3 interminable, but
> now I feel a pang when I realise that the next step is Suldanesselar
> (?sp) and we're almost done.
Ditto - from being quite open, with plenty of side-quests, you're
suddenly forced into a totally rigid, narrow journey that you can't
leave or return to.
The other issue I have is that by the time you get back, and get the
nice artifacts like Gesen Bow, Equalizer, etc, there's virtually
nothing left to do with them. Suldanessellar wasn't even that
challenging, IMO, there wasn't enough to kill, and it was sooooooooo
linear.
I also don't buy the whole difficulty-in-getting-a-boat thing. It's
just an island off Athkatla, for god's sake. How hard could it
possibly be to charter your own boat there? That's why I just didn't
buy the whole Aran Linvail/15,000 gold thing. And why can't you get
back there later on?
And most of all, why can't you finish and tidy up loose ends after
killing Irenicus? Why - like other RPGs I've played - don't you get
an option: "Congratulations! You have won. Would you like to finish
the game, or keep playing?"
Because it makes all the more logical sense that the game *isn't*
over, if the Throne of Bhaal thing comes next. Not that it does, of
course, for us Mac users...
djarvinen
((snip of interesting comments which I more or less agree with))
> Because it makes all the more logical sense that the game *isn't*
> over, if the Throne of Bhaal thing comes next. Not that it does, of
> course, for us Mac users...
Mac... hmm... well, there is a way to remedy that problem.
Of course, history is behind you.
Have you seen this pic?
Katherine F.
Mild spoilers...
>
>I also don't buy the whole difficulty-in-getting-a-boat thing. It's
>just an island off Athkatla, for god's sake. How hard could it
>possibly be to charter your own boat there?
Well, first you need to find a captain willing to sail his
ship into the territory of a group of notorious pirates. Then you need
to hope he doesn't find out about the mental asylum full of
dangerously insane mages. If that doesn't bother him, you still have
to hope he doesn't realise you're going there to get somebody *out* of
the mental asylum full of dangerously insane mages -- and really, why
else would you be going there? It's not as if there's much going on in
Brynnlaw: the brothel (controlled by the pirates), the inn, the temple
to Umberlee... and that's pretty much it except for Spellhold. Which
is controlled by the Cowled Wizards, an immensely powerful group of
magic-users in a nation of people who fear magic more than most.
Nah, I don't see the problem either...
> That's why I just didn't
>buy the whole Aran Linvail/15,000 gold thing. And why can't you get
>back there later on?
...Why would you want to? I can see why you might want to go
back to the Underdark (say, if you didn't bother clearing out the
beholders' lair last time you were there), but like I said, there's
nothing much of interest in Brynnlaw Island. After you're finished
with Spellhold, there's *nothing* of interest there.
Westley Weimer
>> And all of this is irrelevant if you installed the "Insane Monster
>> Patch" from the Tactics mod, which makes the toughest monsters spawn
>> regardless of your levels.
> Is that its official name? :)
Almost.
> I like that part of Tactics. It means you're guaranteed Foebane.
!? That patch shouldn't have anything to do with Foebane ... which will
come out for any LG character who touches the pillar in the WK. Can you
offer more detail here?
- Wes
Kish
That's the Purifier, Wes. Foebane is held by a statue on the first
level of WK.
> Can you
> offer more detail here?
I remember that being talked about earlier. Sometimes, if your party is
exceptionally weak or small (e.g., you're soloing) not all the statues
animate, and the statue with Foebane just stands there, holding it and
looking at you smugly.
I believe it's fixed in the ToB patch, though I'm not sure, and I've
never been there under any circumstances except "with a full party in
Chapter Eight" myself, so I always get all the statues.
T.J....@durham.ac.uk
> Almost.
Maybe just my perception, in that case.
I was under the impression that the number of statues that animate as
you're trying to open the first level portal - and the number of statues
that animate around the altar when you put the three items on it in the
first place - is dependent on the size and level of your party. I was
also under the impression that Foebane was wielded by the last of the
earlier group.
I remember having games when I've not got Foebane from these fights.
<reads post>
You seem to be referring to the the holy avenger from level 3 whose name
I can't remember, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Tom
--
The job of a postgraduate student is to mow the lawn of science.
- Muse of Chem Cafe
T.J....@durham.ac.uk
<snip>
> I remember that being talked about earlier. Sometimes, if your party is
> exceptionally weak or small (e.g., you're soloing) not all the statues
Which I often am...
Westley Weimer
>> !? That patch shouldn't have anything to do with Foebane ... which will
>> come out for any LG character who touches the pillar in the WK.
> That's the Purifier, Wes. Foebane is held by a statue on the first
> level of WK.
Whoops! Sorry, for some reason I was sure you were talking about everyone's
least favorite holy avenger.
>> Can you offer more detail here?
> I remember that being talked about earlier. Sometimes, if your party is
> exceptionally weak or small (e.g., you're soloing) not all the statues
> animate, and the statue with Foebane just stands there, holding it and
> looking at you smugly.
Right. I remember that happening to me once as well, although I cannot
reproduce it anymore. The Foebane guy is in the upper-right corner and he
always seems to animate (even w/o tactics) when you start doing altar
things. I think (but this could be based on nothing) that it was one of the
things addressed by one of the ToB patches (along with that "even though I
killed everyone I can't go through the portal" bug). But I certainly
remember my first solo game through the WK (shortly after ToB came out)
when I was quite surprised not to get it.
> I believe it's fixed in the ToB patch, though I'm not sure, and I've
Yes, I think so as well.
- Wes
inferno2000
>
> I recently tried a re-play of BG2, with the aim of rescuing Imoen
> quickly. I didn't manage it as early as some posters I've seen, but by
> about day 40 we were back on the surface. All I did in Ch2 was the
> Slaver quest and Trademeet.
>
> BUT - I wonder if anyone else found this - I got the feeling that the
> game wasn't really supposed to be played this way. The Underdark was
> extremely tough without all the powerful weapons and equipment I
> usually have collected when I've done all the Ch2/Ch3 quests, and I
> had to resort to (whisper) Shadowkeeper on more than one occasion
Nope. I always find the game manageable wether you go to Spellhold
early or late. It doesn't matter. Unless you have a party which is
unbalanced, the game always award enough quest exp points and
spells/equipments which allow the party to survive the later
encounters.
Lord Wizard
> Mike Horner wrote:
>> Hmm. I didn't realise they scaled up like that. I tried Windspear and
>> didn't notice any difference, but that's pretty linear anyway, and
>> doesn't have anything too nasty (apart from Mr F, of course).
>
> The Iron Golem in the secret room becomes an Adamantium Golem if
> you're of a high level, and there's some goblins or something that
> become orcs as well. Oh yes, and Vampires.. there's a LOT of Vampires
> in that one room before you get the Chapel Key that aren't there when
> you're at a low level..
That's Nalia's Keep, not Windspear Hills ;)
Jonathan Ellis
"Lord Wizard censored" <christer.@boardmod.org> wrote in message
news:kLifa.43876$Rc7.6...@news2.e.nsc.no...
No, it's Windspear hills. There are NO vampires in De'Arnise Keep, and
the Iron Golem (which guards one head of the Flail of Ages) does NOT
become an Adamantite Golem at high levels.
In the Windspear Hills, though, there are at least one or two golems
that are Iron Golems if your party is at low levels, and Adamantite
Golems if your party is at high levels. There are also some wolfweres
that are Normal Wolfweres at low levels, and Greater Wolfweres at high
levels.
Jonathan.
Henry Lockwood
> > you're of a high level, and there's some goblins or something that
> > become orcs as well. Oh yes, and Vampires.. there's a LOT of Vampires
> > in that one room before you get the Chapel Key that aren't there when
> > you're at a low level..
>
> That's Nalia's Keep, not Windspear Hills ;)
Don't think so, I'm afraid. There's no "chapel key" in the Keep, nor are
there any vampires. There _is_ an Iron Golem, but there's no orcs. The
secret room in Windspear Hills is the one where the "door" is a bit of rock
that disappears, and it's just before where you meet Tazok and Chieftain
DigDag (what a name!).
Henry Lockwood
> > you're of a high level, and there's some goblins or something that
> > become orcs as well. Oh yes, and Vampires.. there's a LOT of Vampires
> > in that one room before you get the Chapel Key that aren't there when
> > you're at a low level..
>
> That's Nalia's Keep, not Windspear Hills ;)
Don't think so, I'm afraid. There's no "chapel key" in the Keep, nor are
Htn963
> I think the game
>is definitely set up so that you should attempt the majority of the
>Athkatla quests (and Trademeet, Umar Hills, Windspear, etc.) PRIOR to
>rescuing Imoen.
Yep, the throwing out of a whole bunch of quests early on is a giveaway.
You need to take your time to be well-prepared for the rescue.
>In role-playing terms, however, my take on the plot is that a good PC
>would want to rescue Imoen as soon as possible, whereas an evil (read
>selfish) PC should want to go after Irenicus (for revenge purposes) as
>soon as possible.
But see, I think "ASAP" can have many viable interpretations, depending on
the skill of the player and the personality and philosophy of the PC. It's
enough to say one shouldn't deliberately drag one's feet -- attempting to
prescribe any specific period to go after Immy or to attach any morality to
what one sees as "promptness" is presumptuous.
>I tend to finish class-specific quests before going off to Spellhold.
>That is, if I am playing a ranger I will finish the Umar Hills, if I
>am playing a mage I will do the Planar Sphere, etc.
Indeed. If you hold off on getting your class stronghold until after
getting out of the Underdark, there won't be time to do all the associated
quests, unless you're willing to artificially "wait."
>In any case, the moral is this: do whatever makes the game the most
>fun for you. If questing before rescuing Immy makes the game more
>enjoyable do that.
Sure, one could challenge oneself by heading off for Spellhold right after
getting out of Irenicus' dungeon, but in my view that's just stupid not moral.
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
Uiler
Another thing is if you are a Good character, you can look on the quests not
as "delaying" but rather that as in if you are good and all these people
are asking for your help. I mean their towns are being threatened, their
castle is being over-run by orcs and their father missing etc. You could
simply be a person who is unable to say no to people who ask for help. In
novels for example, the heroes are often side-tracked as well by people
asking for their help. "Sorry mate. I realise that your
town/family/castle is in mortal peril but can you wait while I nip off for
a few weeks and then I'll get back to you? Maybe." They are also often
side-tracked in search for allies. For example gathering up NPCs (and
doing their quests by default) can simply be seen as you gaining allies and
equipment for your quest to reach Imoen. And of course you may have a
special "bond" with Imoen which means that you can "feel" that she is
alright. If you are a good character it is perfectly logical to take your
time to do all the quests. Basically to you Imoen is in prison, at this
point you have no idea she is in danger or that Jon Irenicus took control
of Spellhold or his plans. The cowled wizards seem like nasty folks but
you haven't heard of them actually executing people in Spellhold and well
they are part of the government. Maybe you are the type of person who just
can't say no when people ask for help. Maybe you are the analytical type
who likes to plan things first and realise you might be too weak to take on
Spellhold and so need to get allies (and accidentally getting involved with
their quests) and equipment first, just like people in real-life take
months to plan and prepare for jail-breaks. For example in LoTR, after
initially heading for Mordor, Aragorn and co took a lot of side-trips to
get allies and because unexpected things happened to their allies eg.
getting kidnapped meaning that they had to rescue them. They didn't ride
to the front gates of Mordor alone on their trusty steeds. Maybe you don't
trust the Shadow Thieves or Bohdi and are looking for a third party. There
are options to ask a lot of NPCs about the Cowled Wizards and the Shadow
Thieves.
Basically the way I see it, with the knowledge you have in Chapter 2, you
are not so much rescuing Imoen from mortal peril (utterly and totally
urgent, must do now) but rather planning a jailbreak from a government
owned jail (urgent, but you can take time out to plan it and do other
things). OTOH in Chapter 6 I do feel a sense of urgency to get on with the
plot. If only because you're literally dying little by little every
second. And I just the get the feeling that Chapter 6 is part of what I
would call the endgame when the moves are done, the die is cast and it's
time to finish the game off for good. That's just my opinion and how I see
Chapter 2 and 6.
Uiler
Lord Wizard
Sorry, I confused the Chapel Key with the Keep key :\
Katherine F.
wrote:
>> BUT - I wonder if anyone else found this - I got the feeling that the
>> game wasn't really supposed to be played this way. The Underdark was
>> extremely tough without all the powerful weapons and equipment I
>> usually have collected when I've done all the Ch2/Ch3 quests, and I
>> had to resort to (whisper) Shadowkeeper on more than one occasion
>
>Generally speaking, I would tend to agree with you. I think the game
>is definitely set up so that you should attempt the majority of the
>Athkatla quests (and Trademeet, Umar Hills, Windspear, etc.) PRIOR to
>rescuing Imoen.
>
>In role-playing terms, however, my take on the plot is that a good PC
>would want to rescue Imoen as soon as possible, whereas an evil (read
>selfish) PC should want to go after Irenicus (for revenge purposes) as
>soon as possible.
Not necessarily. Firstly, Immy is taken away by the Cowled
Wizards, not by Irenicus himself. Everyone in Athkatla is agreed that
the Cowled Wizards are powerful and not to be crossed lightly, and for
all that Irenicus didn't have any trouble dispatching four of them, he
did go with them in the end, which could well indicate (to someone who
doesn't know him very well) that he is weak enough to consider them a
threat, and that it is the Cowled Wizards you need to get Immy away
from.
If you don't believe that, there is the slightly deeper and
ultimately more plausible reasoning that Irenicus wants Imoen alive,
as bait to lure you to wherever he is. As such, she's not in mortal
peril (though there's no guarantee she won't be tortured, I
suppose...) and you are justified in helping out other people who
definitely *are* in mortal peril, like the inhabitants of Imnesvale or
the victims of the Unseeing Eye or the people of the de'Arnise lands
or what have you, while you gather not just the fee for retrieving
Imoen, but the items and experience needed to confront Irenicus and
make him pay for what he's done to both of you.
--
Katherine F. http://puritybrown.diaryland.com
"High art it isn’t, but if movies aren’t occasionally going to show
armored chimpanzee cavalry charging a space ship then I can’t see the
point of having them." -- Andrew Rilstone
istara
*LOL* !!!
That's so funny!