[TOB] Kensai/Mage + party Q's..
QuarK
again.
I'm going to be a Kensai/Mage (want to know if it's really that powerful),
with a full party.
Stats decision isn't a problem, high dex+int+con.
But I still have some decisions to make:
* When to dual, at level 9 or 12? (ToB in mind)
- Do I get the figher high-level abilities at either level 9 or 12? Or
only the mage abilities?
- How many stat points do I have at level 9 or 12? (please refresh my
memory)
* Which weapon proficiencies should I choose?
I'm going for a dual weilding character, and Dak'kons Blade is a nice
weapon for a F/M.
I'm still considering giving points to War Hammers (for Crom Faeyr), is
this wise?
* I'm not sure about the power of this character, which people should I
take with me?
These are already in:
Jaheira (haven't tried her romance yet)
Jan (thieving skills and some magic in the beginning). Imoen will replace
him (for the story).
Keldorn (Inquisitor, reason enough)
I think I'll take Sarevok with me once I reach ToB, he's so powerful. And I
would like a game without Edwin just for once.
Any suggestions for the last 2 spots?
Shall I take Haer'Dalis? ;)
Thanks for your precious time :]
Astorian
QuarK <he...@CANNEDBEEFglas.its.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:Xns91A980E41E2BDhe...@212.64.53.133...
> Hey people, after months of not-playing-BG2/TOB I decided to do it all
over
> again.
> I'm going to be a Kensai/Mage (want to know if it's really that powerful),
> with a full party.
I did SoA and Tob with Kensai/Mage and yes it is a very powerful dual class.
but was constantly wondering what it would have been like if i had stayed a
pure kensai.
Blah Blah
>
> Hey people, after months of not-playing-BG2/TOB I decided to do it all over
> again.
> I'm going to be a Kensai/Mage (want to know if it's really that powerful),
> with a full party.
It is, but try a Berserker/Mage instead. They're even more powerful.
> Stats decision isn't a problem, high dex+int+con.
INT isn't as important, since you can always quaff potions that increase
your INT before attempting to scribe spells.
> But I still have some decisions to make:
>
> * When to dual, at level 9 or 12? (ToB in mind)
> - Do I get the figher high-level abilities at either level 9 or 12? Or
> only the mage abilities?
> - How many stat points do I have at level 9 or 12? (please refresh my
> memory)
I dualled at 12, so that I could get another weapon proficiency. Once
you dual to mage, additional weapon proficiencies are few and far
between.
> * Which weapon proficiencies should I choose?
> I'm going for a dual weilding character, and Dak'kons Blade is a nice
> weapon for a F/M.
> I'm still considering giving points to War Hammers (for Crom Faeyr), is
> this wise?
I gave points to long sword and katana (for the celestial fury), but
quickly found that to be a mistake. Crom Faeyr is way better. Definitely
give your points to war hammer.
> I think I'll take Sarevok with me once I reach ToB, he's so powerful. And I
> would like a game without Edwin just for once.
> Any suggestions for the last 2 spots?
> Shall I take Haer'Dalis? ;)
Korgan and Viconia, if you don't mind the occasional reload due to good
vs. evil characters trying to kill each other.
- Kevin
QuarK
-snip-
>
>> * Which weapon proficiencies should I choose?
>> I'm going for a dual weilding character, and Dak'kons Blade is a nice
>> weapon for a F/M.
>> I'm still considering giving points to War Hammers (for Crom Faeyr),
>> is this wise?
>
> I gave points to long sword and katana (for the celestial fury), but
> quickly found that to be a mistake. Crom Faeyr is way better.
> Definitely give your points to war hammer.
>
Which was a mistake? Long swords?
Do you prefer Celestial Fury above Dak'kons Blade?
Until I have CF, I think I will be using these 2 blades (when I can afford
Dak'kons)
BTW, how many points will I have at level 12?
Blah Blah
Zerth Blade. (Yes, I know I could download the patch, but I'm too lazy.)
Since the Celestial Fury is the only good Katana in the "original" game,
it was stupid for me to put points into katanas just to wield it. In
your case, put five points into katanas and one into two weapon style
right off the bat, then put your next two points into two weapon style.
You'll have 8 points at level 12, which is when you should dual. You'll
get two points when you dual, but you can't use them on war hammer since
mages can't wield war hammers, so put one into quarterstaff and one into
your favorite missile weapon (either sling or dart, I would go for sling
and use the Sling of Seeking +2). Once you get your Berserker abilities
back, you'll be able to put points into war hammer, but when you're a
mage, you only get another point for every 6 levels or so, which makes
it hard to max out war hammmer.
- Kevin
Graeme Dice
>
> QuarK wrote:
> >
> > Hey people, after months of not-playing-BG2/TOB I decided to do it all over
> > again.
> > I'm going to be a Kensai/Mage (want to know if it's really that powerful),
> > with a full party.
>
> It is, but try a Berserker/Mage instead. They're even more powerful.
Hardly. The immunities provided by enraging are not necessary when you
have the massive saving throw bonuses provided by spirit armor, improved
invisibility and blur (-8). Plus, neither mages, nor kensai can wear
armour, but a kensai mage can wear mage robes.
> > * When to dual, at level 9 or 12? (ToB in mind)
> > - Do I get the figher high-level abilities at either level 9 or 12? Or
> > only the mage abilities?
> > - How many stat points do I have at level 9 or 12? (please refresh my
> > memory)
>
> I dualled at 12, so that I could get another weapon proficiency. Once
> you dual to mage, additional weapon proficiencies are few and far
> between.
You are far, far better off dualing at either level 9, to reach level 17
under the SOA experience cap, or at level 13 with TOB to get an extra
1/2 attack per round.
Graeme Dice
--
"Life exists in the universe only because the carbon atom
possesses certain exceptional properties." — James Jeans
(1877-1946), British scientist.
Blah Blah
>
> Hardly. The immunities provided by enraging are not necessary when you
> have the massive saving throw bonuses provided by spirit armor, improved
> invisibility and blur (-8). Plus, neither mages, nor kensai can wear
> armour, but a kensai mage can wear mage robes.
Unfortunately, there is no saving throw versus Power Word: Stun, Maze,
or Imprisonment, which get used on you quite a lot near the end of the
game. Enraged characters are immune to all of those. Besides, a
Berserker/Mage can use save-enhancing spells too, so you get the best of
both worlds.
Kensai can't wear armor, helmets, shields, or bracers, which is a huge
limitation not because of the AC, but because of the stat bonuses,
resistances, and immunities given by those items.
> You are far, far better off dualing at either level 9, to reach level 17
> under the SOA experience cap, or at level 13 with TOB to get an extra
> 1/2 attack per round.
You're supposed to get an extra 1/2 attack per round for having Grand
Mastery in a weapon, according to the official AD&D rules. There's a
patch you can download and put in your override diectory to restore the
correct rules. Some people might consider this cheating, since the game
was designed to be balanced with the crippled version of the proficiency
bonuses.
- Kevin
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
> > Hardly. The immunities provided by enraging are not necessary when you
> > have the massive saving throw bonuses provided by spirit armor, improved
> > invisibility and blur (-8). Plus, neither mages, nor kensai can wear
> > armour, but a kensai mage can wear mage robes.
>
> Unfortunately, there is no saving throw versus Power Word: Stun, Maze,
> or Imprisonment, which get used on you quite a lot near the end of the
> game. Enraged characters are immune to all of those. Besides, a
> Berserker/Mage can use save-enhancing spells too, so you get the best of
> both worlds.
Very few mages actually use imprisonement. Maze is a temporary
problem. It makes you perfectly safe, so just wait it out. Power word
stun only lasts for three rounds, and can be dispelled.
The best way of course to deal with these is a spell trap from the staff
of the magi. Another way would be to cast improved invisibility and
spell immunity:divination. Then they can't hurt you with anything but
area-effect spells.
> Kensai can't wear armor, helmets, shields, or bracers, which is a huge
> limitation not because of the AC, but because of the stat bonuses,
> resistances, and immunities given by those items.
Not being able to wear armour and bracers is hardly a limitation when
you have such things available as the amulet of power and Vecna's robes.
> > You are far, far better off dualing at either level 9, to reach level 17
> > under the SOA experience cap, or at level 13 with TOB to get an extra
> > 1/2 attack per round.
>
> You're supposed to get an extra 1/2 attack per round for having Grand
> Mastery in a weapon, according to the official AD&D rules. There's a
> patch you can download and put in your override diectory to restore the
> correct rules. Some people might consider this cheating, since the game
> was designed to be balanced with the crippled version of the proficiency
> bonuses.
You still get an extra 1/2 attack at 7th level, and another 1/2 attack
at 13th level, no matter your proficiencies.
--
Q: How many Windows programmers does it take to change a light
bulb?
A: Four hundred and seventy two.
One to write WinGetLightBulbHandle,
one to write WinQueryStatusLightBulb,
one to write WinGetLightSwitchHandle...
......
Derville
"Blah Blah" <bl...@5h4w.c4> wrote in message
news:3C5C2661...@5h4w.c4...
> QuarK wrote:
> >
> > Hey people, after months of not-playing-BG2/TOB I decided to do it all
over
> > again.
> > I'm going to be a Kensai/Mage (want to know if it's really that
powerful),
> > with a full party.
>
> It is, but try a Berserker/Mage instead. They're even more powerful.
But nowhere near as elegant. The beauty of the K/M is that his restrictions
are all but nullified when you add in the features of the Mage class (no
armour? Slap on a Robe. Poor AC? Cast spells on yourself. etc etc).
There's also the advantage of innate bonuses to his attacks, rather than
having to manually Enrage yourself to get the bonuses (also, Rage is a
limited use skill, so resting become more necessary).
> > Stats decision isn't a problem, high dex+int+con.
>
> INT isn't as important, since you can always quaff potions that increase
> your INT before attempting to scribe spells.
It may be frowned upon by some, but just dropping the difficulty level is my
preferred method. I don't know who did the calculations for BG2, but my
Mages with 85%+ chance to learn scrolls get a mite ticked off when they fail
three or more times on the trot to scribe a spell. Plus, a good Int score
always comes in handy against Mind Flayers (assuming the Barbia/Mage isn't
immune to MF attacks when Raging - I've not tested this myself).
> > But I still have some decisions to make:
> >
> > * When to dual, at level 9 or 12? (ToB in mind)
> > - Do I get the figher high-level abilities at either level 9 or 12? Or
> > only the mage abilities?
> > - How many stat points do I have at level 9 or 12? (please refresh my
> > memory)
>
> I dualled at 12, so that I could get another weapon proficiency. Once
> you dual to mage, additional weapon proficiencies are few and far
> between.
As Graeme mentioned, 13 is a better point to dual for long term power.
Within normal BG2, I'd lean towards 9th level, to max out my Mage side, but
the advantages of 13th level in plain old number of attacks (and the ever
useful +1 to THAC0) are a very big plus point for those who have them.
> > I'm going for a dual weilding character, and Dak'kons Blade is a nice
> > weapon for a F/M.
> > I'm still considering giving points to War Hammers (for Crom Faeyr), is
> > this wise?
>
> I gave points to long sword and katana (for the celestial fury), but
> quickly found that to be a mistake. Crom Faeyr is way better. Definitely
> give your points to war hammer.
Not Staves? SotM in the hands of a K/M is an all but guaranteed hit every
time (+5 weapon bonus, add in all the PC bonuses and you end with a number
lower than Railtrack's share price). Especially if dualling to Mage,
there's a great need to use the initial 8 Fighter weapon profs wisely - if
you go with 3 in dual wield (anything less is worthless), three in Staves
(more than 3 is equally iffy) and put the rest into a favoured weapon type
(Daggers, perhaps, for Firetooth etc), than you're well set for when you
regain your Fighter skills. In the meantime, you'd pump Mage points into
Slings, although you run the risk of losing a couple of points if you can't
find a spare weapon prof to put your other Mage points in (if you add profs
as a Mage into a class your Fighter put profs in, they will NOT add together
when you regain your first class. Having said that, I can't for the life of
me recall which weapon profs Mages have access to, other than Dagger, Sling
and Staff).
--
Phil
"Over and out? Oh no, one hundred and thirty seven for five, last time I
heard"
- Colonel K
(remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Kish
>
Having said that, I can't for the life of
> me recall which weapon profs Mages have access to, other than Dagger, Sling
> and Staff).
Darts.
And?
And nothing.
Blah Blah
>
> > It is, but try a Berserker/Mage instead. They're even more powerful.
>
> But nowhere near as elegant. The beauty of the K/M is that his restrictions
> are all but nullified when you add in the features of the Mage class (no
> armour? Slap on a Robe. Poor AC? Cast spells on yourself. etc etc).
> There's also the advantage of innate bonuses to his attacks, rather than
> having to manually Enrage yourself to get the bonuses (also, Rage is a
> limited use skill, so resting become more necessary).
You're absolutely right, but the point I was trying to make (and that
the other guy posting to this thread just couldn't seem to figure out)
is that everything a Kensai/Mage can do, a Berserker/Mage can also do.
The only thing the K/M has that the B/M doesn't is the Kai ability and a
slight advantage in THAC0 and damage when the B/M isn't raging. On the
other hand, Berserkers can wear armor, helmets, shields, and bracers,
and are immune to Imprisonment and Maze when raging. Ok, so those aren't
HUGE advantages, but they're enough to make me prefer Berserkers over
Kensai as dualling material. Of course, if you AREN'T dualling, a
high-level Kensai's THAC0 and damage bonuses quickly surpass the
Berserker's, so a Kensai is better if you're staying single-class.
> Plus, a good Int score
> always comes in handy against Mind Flayers (assuming the Barbia/Mage isn't
> immune to MF attacks when Raging - I've not tested this myself).
Raging characters aren't immune to psionics, unfortunately, but that's
what Greenstone Amulets are for. By the way, if the one Greenstone
Amulet you find in the Beholder Lair isn't enough, have a mage stand
somewhere far away from the party, Stoneskin and Mirror Image himself,
summon a few Mordenkainen's Swords, then Cloudkill himself. The
Mordenkainen's Swords will die pretty quickly, and each one has a
Greenstone Amulet. If your mage has low HP and won't survive the
cloudkill, you can also just have your thief pickpocket the amulets off
the swords. This only works if you do NOT have ToB installed,
unfortunately.
> As Graeme mentioned, 13 is a better point to dual for long term power.
> Within normal BG2, I'd lean towards 9th level, to max out my Mage side, but
> the advantages of 13th level in plain old number of attacks (and the ever
> useful +1 to THAC0) are a very big plus point for those who have them.
Yes, it probably would have been better for me to dual at 13th instead
of 12th, but then it would have taken me so much longer to get my
fighter abilities back...
I should mention that I fully intended to play my B/M as a fighter as
soon as he got his abilities back. My technique was to remove his armor
and have him pump himself up with defensive spells before major battles,
then put his armor back on and proceed to cut through bad guys like a
scythe.
> Not Staves?
As soon as I regained my fighter abilities, I never touched another
staff again. Dual-wielding long swords turned my character into a meat
grinder, especially when Improved Hasted. To make things even more
ridiculous, I would summon a few Mordenkainen's swords and/or use Ras
before major battles. Edwin can use the Staff of the Magi just fine. :)
BTW, Staff of the Magi is only treated as a +5 weapon when determining
what it can hit. It's THAC0 bonus is only +1.
> Having said that, I can't for the life of me recall which weapon profs Mages have
> access to, other than Dagger, Sling and Staff).
Like Kish said, Darts, and that's it. :)
- Kevin
Graeme Dice
>
> Derville wrote:
> >
> > > It is, but try a Berserker/Mage instead. They're even more powerful.
> >
> > But nowhere near as elegant. The beauty of the K/M is that his restrictions
> > are all but nullified when you add in the features of the Mage class (no
> > armour? Slap on a Robe. Poor AC? Cast spells on yourself. etc etc).
> > There's also the advantage of innate bonuses to his attacks, rather than
> > having to manually Enrage yourself to get the bonuses (also, Rage is a
> > limited use skill, so resting become more necessary).
>
> You're absolutely right, but the point I was trying to make (and that
> the other guy posting to this thread just couldn't seem to figure out)
> is that everything a Kensai/Mage can do, a Berserker/Mage can also do.
> The only thing the K/M has that the B/M doesn't is the Kai ability and a
> slight advantage in THAC0 and damage when the B/M isn't raging. On the
> other hand, Berserkers can wear armor, helmets, shields, and bracers,
> and are immune to Imprisonment and Maze when raging. Ok, so those aren't
> HUGE advantages, but they're enough to make me prefer Berserkers over
> Kensai as dualling material.
Those things are almost entirely irrelevant when dualing to a mage. A
fighter/mage should really be either using the staff of the magi, or
dual-wielding, as shields are mostly useless in BG2. The lack of a
helmet is a minor inconvenience, but that's all. A spell
immunity:abjuration lasts for longer than the berserk rage, and also
provides immunity to maze and imprisonement. Only one of which is a
game-ender.
> Of course, if you AREN'T dualling, a
> high-level Kensai's THAC0 and damage bonuses quickly surpass the
> Berserker's, so a Kensai is better if you're staying single-class.
<snip>
> > As Graeme mentioned, 13 is a better point to dual for long term power.
> > Within normal BG2, I'd lean towards 9th level, to max out my Mage side, but
> > the advantages of 13th level in plain old number of attacks (and the ever
> > useful +1 to THAC0) are a very big plus point for those who have them.
>
> Yes, it probably would have been better for me to dual at 13th instead
> of 12th, but then it would have taken me so much longer to get my
> fighter abilities back...
It requires only 375,000 more experience to go from a level 12 mage to a
level 13 one.
> I should mention that I fully intended to play my B/M as a fighter as
> soon as he got his abilities back. My technique was to remove his armor
> and have him pump himself up with defensive spells before major battles,
> then put his armor back on and proceed to cut through bad guys like a
> scythe.
That's nothing more than exploiting a flaw in game mechanics, and is
hardly playing a fighter/mage. It should take about 15 minutes of game
time at the very least to put a suit of heavy armour on. By that time
all of your spells should have worn off.
> > Not Staves?
>
> As soon as I regained my fighter abilities, I never touched another
> staff again. Dual-wielding long swords turned my character into a meat
> grinder, especially when Improved Hasted. To make things even more
> ridiculous, I would summon a few Mordenkainen's swords and/or use Ras
> before major battles. Edwin can use the Staff of the Magi just fine. :)
>
> BTW, Staff of the Magi is only treated as a +5 weapon when determining
> what it can hit. It's THAC0 bonus is only +1.
You are missing out on the best part of the staff then. It dispels on
every hit and makes protection removing spells mostly irrelevant.
Graeme Dice
--
You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you
can with a kind word alone.
-- Al Capone
Derville
"Blah Blah" <bl...@5h4w.c4> wrote in message
> Derville wrote:
> >
> > > It is, but try a Berserker/Mage instead. They're even more powerful.
> >
> > having to manually Enrage yourself to get the bonuses (also, Rage is a
> > limited use skill, so resting become more necessary).
>
> You're absolutely right, but the point I was trying to make (and that
> the other guy posting to this thread just couldn't seem to figure out)
> is that everything a Kensai/Mage can do, a Berserker/Mage can also do.
> The only thing the K/M has that the B/M doesn't is the Kai ability and a
> slight advantage in THAC0 and damage when the B/M isn't raging.
To be fair, that's a +2 to THAC0 (nothing for any Mage dual-class to sneeze
at), which is active at all times, rather than having to Rage to see the
benefits. It also comes without the drawback of getting winded, meaning
Kenneth Sai can be fully ready for stomping on enemies at all hours of the
day, and doesn't need a breather after each battle.
> On the
> other hand, Berserkers can wear armor, helmets, shields, and bracers,
> and are immune to Imprisonment and Maze when raging.
Armour's out for a Mage, unless you go for the odd special set, and to be
honest, only Drow +5 armour is better than, say, the Robe of Vecna. Bracers
are a miss, Helms are covered by King Strohm's Mask for the K/M, and anyone
who seriously expects their dervish of destruction to be taken seriously
while hiding behind a Shield just isn't playing the same game as me ;-).
> Ok, so those aren't
> HUGE advantages, but they're enough to make me prefer Berserkers over
> Kensai as dualling material. Of course, if you AREN'T dualling, a
> high-level Kensai's THAC0 and damage bonuses quickly surpass the
> Berserker's, so a Kensai is better if you're staying single-class.
Oddly enough, I'd disagree here. I reckon the Berserker is a more solid
character, because he doesn't have the drawbacks of limited item choice to
the extent of the Kensai. As I mentioned, the Kensai/Mage works so well
because his Mage side acts to counterbalance the restrictions imposed by his
Kensai half.
> Raging characters aren't immune to psionics, unfortunately, but that's
> what Greenstone Amulets are for.
Sadly, I only really find MF psionics to be particularly troublesome, with
most other things being within my skill level for countering with spells and
assorted items. If a character had psionics immunity, then I'd be eager to
use him - as it is, I'd personally stick to my preference to use Kensai
skills above Berserker ones.
> > As Graeme mentioned, 13 is a better point to dual for long term power.
> > Within normal BG2, I'd lean towards 9th level, to max out my Mage side,
but
> > the advantages of 13th level in plain old number of attacks (and the
ever
> > useful +1 to THAC0) are a very big plus point for those who have them.
>
> Yes, it probably would have been better for me to dual at 13th instead
> of 12th, but then it would have taken me so much longer to get my
> fighter abilities back...
True, which is why I still like to dual at 9th level. I guess 13th level is
more for those who *really* know what they're doing, or for people looking
for the long haul (i.e. playing ToB as well).
> I should mention that I fully intended to play my B/M as a fighter as
> soon as he got his abilities back. My technique was to remove his armor
> and have him pump himself up with defensive spells before major battles,
> then put his armor back on and proceed to cut through bad guys like a
> scythe.
Not all that elegant, but I guess it'll do. However, with Spirit Armour etc
in place, exactly what sort of suit of armour do you think you'll need to
beat the AC you can acquire from spells? Bear in mind there's other team
members who will want armour, which will influence the choice of who gets
what, although I guess this has to be balanced against the fact that the
protagonist must be protected at all times, and that while spells can be
dispelled, armour isn't quite so easy to remove.
> > Not Staves?
>
> As soon as I regained my fighter abilities, I never touched another
> staff again. Dual-wielding long swords turned my character into a meat
> grinder, especially when Improved Hasted. To make things even more
> ridiculous, I would summon a few Mordenkainen's swords and/or use Ras
> before major battles. Edwin can use the Staff of the Magi just fine. :)
>
> BTW, Staff of the Magi is only treated as a +5 weapon when determining
> what it can hit. It's THAC0 bonus is only +1.
True, but I always get so many extra THAC0 bonuses from my warrior side ;-).
I still don't use the SotM to its full potential, partly from fear of
ruining the fun - generally I let Jan carry it round, and sometimes give him
a strength girdle to go and do the odd backstab on unsuspecting Drow ;-).
> > Having said that, I can't for the life of me recall which weapon profs
Mages have
> > access to, other than Dagger, Sling and Staff).
>
> Like Kish said, Darts, and that's it. :)
Darts, Staves, Daggers and Slings. Jeez, life's boring being a Mage ;-).
XJohn Deth
Mark Blunden
news:20020214224840...@mb-cr.aol.com...
> King Stroms Mask? Whats that?
It's the mask you use to see the guardian in a sub-quest within the
Windspear Hills dungeon. The mask has no other use, but it's unique in that
it's usable by any character and protects against critical hits just as a
normal helmet does.
--
Mark.
mark.b...@ntlworld.com
* People are too unreliable to be successfully replaced by machines