Best Spells
Rob
I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use in
BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
Thanks
Bob
Graeme Dice
Do you want the TOB high-level spells included? If so, here's my list
for mage spells:
Time Stop
Improved Alacricity (Use these two and empty the entire spell memory of
a 30th level mage in one round)
Summon Planetar (The most dangerous summon in the game)
Mordenkainen's Sword (A summon that is nearly immune to damage)
Abi-Dhazzim's Horrid Wilting (Friendly fire safe extreme damage spell.)
True Sight (Necessary to deal with invisibility spells)
Spell Trigger
Spell Sequencer
Minor Spell Sequencer
Chain Contgigency (These can all be set up quite nicely. Chain
Contigency set to cast three wiltings on nearest enemy can be quite
dramatic.)
Energy Blades (Melf's Minute Meteors on steroids)
Death Spell (For getting rid of pesky lower level enemies)
Ruby Ray of Reversal (One of only three ways to deal with spell trap)
Breach
Lower Resist (For attacking single big targets, put three in a spell
trigger.)
Simulacrum
Project Image (Cast Simulacrum, then have it and you both cast project
image. That's about four times as many spells as you had previously.)
Flame Arrow (High damage single target spell.)
Magic Missile (This one is obvious.)
Melf's Acid Arrow (To disrupt spellcasters for a long time.)
Melf's Minute Meteors (For resistant monsters)
Chaos (These two are great for breaking up mobs.)
Emotion
Greater Malison (Reduce saving throws so that the spells will be more
likely to work.)
Stoneskin (These last two are extremely important to keep your weak
mages safe.)
Mirror Image
Defensive spells increase in importance as the game progresses, as more
and more enemies become magic-resistant. Offensive spells are still
great in other cases.
Graeme Dice
--
You are not thinking. You are merely being logical.
-- Neils Bohr to Albert Einstein
Mark Blunden
news:43228.641$k91.28078@wards...
> Hi All,
>
> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use in
> BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
Well, here's a selection:
Level 1:
Chromatic Orb - quick to cast, and the damage can't be saved against so it's
good for disrupting spellcasters. At high caster level, the secondary
effects are very powerful, right up to instant death, but can be saved
against.
Grease - easy to neglect this one, but if you're into melee, it's a great
way to break down a mass of charging enemies into smaller, individual
encounters. You can also use it to pin down a fair portion of the enemy at
range in order to safely use area-effect spells such as Fireball on them.
Level 2:
Invisibility - good to use on thieves, since they can scout safely as if
hiding in shadows, but still use their find/remove traps abilities.
Melf's Acid Arrow - the spell that keeps on giving. Causes successive acid
damage in later rounds unless saved against.
Level 3:
Flame Arrow - at 15th level or higher, this is devastating, inflicting high
levels of damage. Three of these in a Spell Sequencer will kill practically
anything that doesn't have spell protections.
Haste - one of the best party-buffing spells, providing speedy movement and
an extra attack per round.
Melf's Minute Meteors - it's almost worth having your mage cast these each
time they wake up, so that they're ready when needed. Good damage combined
with very fast firing rate make this a devastating ranged weapon, just don't
attack a mage protected with Spell Turning.
Level 4:
Emotion - a pretty effective group-disabling spell.
Greater Malison - the main problem with many spells is that enemies can
easily save against them. GM goes some way toward solving this, lowering all
affected enemies' saving throws significantly. Follow it up with Emotion or
Chaos for good effect.
Stoneskin - excellent mage protection spell with long duration. Have your
mages cast it whenever they wake up.
Level 4:
Breach - essential in mage duels. Knocks out most mages' protections against
physical attacks, letting your warriors finish them off.
Chaos - nice area-effect spell with a pealty to enemies' saves.
Cloudkill - great against groups, but be careful of your own party. Best
used in conjunction with a stealthed thief - after he locates a group of
enemies, have your mage lob in a Cloudkill from beyond visual range, then
sit back and watch the casualties mount up.
Level 6:
Improved Haste - only affects one character, but provides better bonuses
than regular Haste. Use it on your front-line fighters and anyone with a
high number of attacks.
Pierce Magic - the counterpart to Breach, this one knocks out a mage's
anti-magic protections, allowing your spellcasters to attack him
effectively.
Level 7:
Mordenkainen's Sword - one of the best summoned 'creatures'. The sword is
immune to many forms of attack, and inflicts high damage.
Spell Sequencer - stack 3 spells of up to 4th level. A combo of Greater
Malison + two Emotions will knock out enemies en masse, or three Flame
Arrows will cause massive damage to one target. Lots of other possibilites.
Level 8:
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting - the best attack spell short of the quest-level
spells in Throne of Bhaal. Inflicts massive damage over a large area,
without harming your party members, so you can cast it at point-blank range.
Simulacrum - hugely overpowered if used well. Duplicates any items in your
quick item slots, letting you use one-time-only items like scrolls without
destroying the original. Acts as a decent spellcaster in its own right.
Spell Trigger - the highest sequencer, letting you sequence 3 spells up to
6th level. Putting three Chain Lightnings into this will let you do serious
damage to multiple enemies.
Level 9:
Time Stop - highly effective spell, which effectively lets you 'instantly'
perform 6 rounds' worth of tasks, including spellcasting, by stopping time
for everyone else for that duration.
I think that comes to around twenty.
--
Mark.
mark.b...@ntlworld.com
* Note to self: shoot first, quip later
Phaenar
I don't think I can list 20 but I will list my favorites. What you like
really depends on playing style so before I list these I'll say my party is
good aligned and fighter intensive. I am a fighter/mage/thief who mostly
fights and I cast misc mage spells to enhance my combat, open locks,
identify stuff, etc. My party in general doesn't use a great deal of
offensive spells but I do on occasion and they are carefully picked for the
task at hand. Most monsters get the sword treatement.
1. Summon. Anything, just summon the darned thing and let my enemy be
distracted while I hack them to bits. Summon is the equivalent of Confusion
except there is virtually no save for your enemies except for killing or
dispelling the summons. If your most powerful enemy is killing your summon
he's likely not killing you!
2. Stoneskin. It's the most often cast of both my mages (me, Imoen)
3. Haste. In battle it's the best overall party spell because I'm fighter
intensive. Everyone doubles movement and gets an extra attack.
4. Any sort of dispel invisibility. (e.g. invisibility purge/oracle/true
sight/etc...) True Sight and Oracle rock mage battles.
5. Any sort of magic shield remover. (e.g. spell strike/pierce magic/ruby
ray/etc...). Must haves for high level mage battles.
6. Any sort of magic defense remover. (e.g. lower resistance/spell
thrust/remove magic/breach/etc...). Must haves for high level mage battles.
7. Bless/Chant. These are really similar and when I cast one I usually
cast them both. No important battle goes by without them.
8. Blur/Mirror Image/Improved Invisibility. These are a few of the best
spells for the "fighting" fighter/mage.
9. Magic Missile/Bolt of Glory. When a general purpose "finishing"
offensive spell is called for one or both of these is usually the ticket.
Using these is part of a tactic I use against particular monsters to "pile
on the damage" to finish a certain creature faster than with swords alone.
Any monster that is causing serious harm to me becomes the focus of
attention and usually these things rushing at them amidst a flurry of
hostile blades is the last thing they ever see.
>
>
>
>
Trent Goulding
>I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use in
>BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
First off, realize that with so dang many spells available in the
game, a lot of what gets recommended is going to depend on personal
preference and playing style. That's something that evolves and
gets fine-tuned over the course of one or more times through the
game. It's also affected by who's in your party, or if you're
soloing, and how you prefer to do damage--are you primarily reliant
on physical melee, or do you prefer to dispose of obstacles directly
by magic?
Anyway. Here's some of the stuff that I like. You'll see that I'm
generally not particularly imaginative when it comes to
spell-casting options. I usually play with a fairly standard
party. I'll include both Mage and Priest spells (set off with an M
and a P, respectively).
M lvl. 1:
Magic Missile. The classic low-level damage spell, it stays
more-or-less usefull all the way to the end of the game. I've heard
good things about Chromatic Orb at higher levels, but I rarely
bother with it myself.
P lvl. 1:
Remove Fear. A real lifesaver for a lot of battles. Has good
duration, so make sure to hit your party with it before going into
any big dust-ups.
M lvl. 2:
Invisibility. This is nice to put on your scouts, particularly the
thieves, as they can then turn on their Find Traps and not rely on
their own Hide in Shadows skill. Later in the game, though, I
usually have so many invisibility potions kicking around that this
spell becomes somewhat moot.
P lvl. 2: I'm not a big fan of the level 2 Priest spells, with one
possible exeption--
Draw on Holy Might. If you have a character that is also a half-way
decent melee character (coughAnomencough), possibly including your
PC for the first half of the game, this is a great spell to pump up
their stats and make them a lot tougher.
M lvl. 3
Fireball. I'm a fan of this admittedly tricky spell, at least in
the early-to-mid going. It takes some effort not to barbeque your
own party; what I like to do is scout ahead, then use my scout as an
artillery spotter, and send my mage(s) up to unleash a fireball at a
point right short of a clump of enemies. I prefer this to
Lightening Bolt, which I can never, never get to work without
sizzling at least half my party, and have consequently abandoned
altogether.
Melf's Minute Meteors. This is a fantastic spell if you have a
fighter/mage or kensai/mage. I don't have my straight mages use it
as often, because their THAC0s are a lot higher, and I usually think
they can do other more useful magic stuff.
Some 3rd level spells that I'm ambivalent about: Skull
Trap--fantastic damage at higher levels (it saved my ass in the
Improved Gromnir fight), but it's even harder to use effectively
than Fireball, because it *will* damage your own party, and it has a
shorter firing range. Haste--yeah, this was a supremo spell in BG1,
but it often doesn't seem worth the trouble in BGII just for a
paltry 1 extra attack per round, so I don't use it all that much.
P lvl. 3
Animate Dead. Very useful when your Priest gets to level 15; hardly
worth it until then.
M lvl. 4 I'm sure the whole Greater Malison-Emotion-Confusion-Chaos
tactic is a great one, I just never use it myself. Personal style,
again.
Improved Invisibility. Nice spell to put on your thief before
sending them to backstab, or on your hackmasters before sending them
into battle. Allows them to get up close and start with the first
hit, and gives them an AC boost even after the enemy can physically
attack them.
Stoneskin. *The* defensive combat spell for mages. Lasts twelve
hours, so if you don't have the "rest until healed" option set, or
you know you'll only rest for 8 hours, cast a spare one of these on
all your mages prior to resting, and get four hours worth free the
next day.
P lvl. 4
Death Ward. I used to overlook this one in my early days. It's
actually pretty useful once you start running into enemies that can
fling death magic at you. Use it at least on your characters that
have really bad saving throws vs. death. Obviously, your Dwarven
berserkers will have less need of it.
Decent but ambivalent spells at this level: Cure Serious Wounds
(and the lesser Cure spells, also)--it's great, but when my guys
need healing, they usually need more than 17 (or 14, or 8) HPs
healed. I tend to rely more on potions (or regeneration, later in
the game). Defensive Harmony--gives a slight AC boost to the whole
party, but only lasts one turn. Lesser Restoration--you can buy
scrolls for this, so don't waste a spell slot on it, I say.
Negative Plane Protection--crucial for certain beasties (aka
Vampires), but its duration is just so darn short that I usually
don't bother with this spell. I just send a tank wearing the Amulet
of Power out on point, and kill the vampires as soon as possible.
M lvl. 5
Breach. This will be one of the most used spells in the mid-to-late
game. Takes down all combat protections at once. Just be certain
that all the relevant spell protections are down first.
Lower Resistance. I never used to use this one. It still doesn't
have much use against swarms of enemies with high MR--don't even
bother with it against the drow, for instance (just chop them into
little drow bits asap). However, for single big bads (like,
dragons), if you want to use your mages offensively, you have to cut
MR first, and this is a great spell for that.
Spell Immunity. I'm generally pretty dilatory about putting spell
protections on my mages, because the enemy AI almost never makes me
pay for it. This one, however, can be useful in certain big battles
where you don't want your invisibility dispelled or your defenses
taken down.
P lvl. 5
Chaotic Commands. Love this spell. Do not leave the Copper Coronet
(or wherever) without it. Keeps you immune to all mental,
domination, and stunning attacks, up to and including the Mind
Flayers' psionic blasts. No more standing there like a doofus while
your lead blocker gets carved into tomorrow's dinner. Has a nice
long duration, too.
Iron Skins. Great spell if you have a druid. Even better if you
have a fighter/druid with pretensions to melee effectiveness. The
druid equivalent of Stoneskins. Too bad straight priests don't get
this one.
True Seeing. The divination spell par excellence. A must have,
since you have to see them before you can target them. If you have
Keldorn, it's even better, because he gets this spell with an
instantaneous casting time, which is a big deal, I assure you.
M lvl. 6
Death Spell. This isn't so great as a stand-alone offensive spell.
Where it comes into its own is in cleaning up the opposition's
summoned creatures. If you're facing an enemy that likes to summon
lots of junk to impede you, then a Death Spell will toast all of
them within a certain radius.
Improved Haste. Love this one. It turns your front-liners into
proverbial cuisinarts. A high-level warrior with (patched) grand
mastery in a weapon might have up to 10 attacks per round under the
effects of this spell. Ouch!
P lvl. 6
False Dawn. A nice anti-undead spell. Have your priest creep up to
the front line that's holding off a wall of twitchy cadavers and
cast away with this one.
Heal. Heals all damage on a single character. Nice, although its
long casting time makes it dicey to use in the middle of combat.
M lvl. 7
Mass Invisibility. Same as Improved Invisibility, except it can
cover your entire group. Really helps things to get off on the
right foot in some of the tougher high-level fights. Makes fighting
the Cowled Wizards in the streets of Athkatla a total breeze.
Mordenkainen's Sword. I used to blow this one off, until I found
out what a great summons it is. It doesn't last forever, like some
summons, and it can be easily hurt/killed by straight magic damage,
but it takes no physical damage, and isn't affected by mental or
psionic attacks. Against foes with only physical attacks, it's
wonderful.
Project Image. Another one I never used to use, but even when you
don't abuse it, it's a great spell, since it essentially gives you
"free" use of the spells you have memorized at the time (as well as
free use of whatever is in your quick slots when you cast it. If
that happens to be a Time Stop and Spellstrike scroll, well, so be
it).
Spell Sequencer. Allows you to prepare three spells of level 4 or
lower for instant casting. I'm usually so boring that I just stick
Magic Missiles x3 in there, but on occasion I've tried a Web with
two Fireballs with some success.
P lvl. 7
Sunray. I love this spell against groups of undead. Use the same
tactics as for false dawn. This is the killer magic approach to
undead beasties, up until Anomen gets really high level Turn Undead,
when it becomes a moot point.
M lvl. 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting. The rockinest little offensive area
effect spell you'll find this side of Dragon's Breath. It doesn't
touch friendlies, so you can cast it right on top of yourself. Does
great damage, too. It's a happy day when you find your first
Abi-Dalzim's scroll, and a happier one when you get a couple lvl. 8
slots to fill with it.
Pierce Shield. Will take down any one spell protection, including a
Spell Trap, and will also lower target's magic resistance.
Spell Trigger. Allows you to store any 3 lvl. 6 or lower spells; a
great force multiplier. I'm boring, so I usually go for the old
Lower MR x3 trick.
M lvl. 9
Spell Strike. So nice to be able to wipe out all spell protections
in one fell swoop.
Time Stop. This spell is so open to abuse, especially in combo with
Improved Alacrity. Oh well, sucks to be them.
M lvl. 10
Improved Alacrity. You say you wanted a mage who can do a good
impression of a machine gun? Look no further. Put 'em in the Robe
of Vecna for good measure, and we're talking new depths of cheap and
tawdry. Just like I like it...
Summon (Dark) Planetar. The pinnacle of summons. This uber-beastie
laughs at the cleric's Deva, and casts enough spells to send your
average mid-level mage crying home to mommy.
P Quest spells
Globe of Blades. Has to be managed very carefully, since it will
hurt any friendlies (and turn summons hostile) that get in range,
but it does some nice damage to enemies that make the mistake of
getting up close to the wearer. Doesn't last long, though.
Greater Elemental Summoning. Only available to druids, but this
summons up an elemental prince every time, which are pretty
powerful.
Well, there's a lot of great spells that I didn't list, but this is
well over the requested twenty, so I'll leave it at that.
--
Trent Goulding trent.g...@mho.com
Graeme Dice
>
> "Rob" <robert_...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:43228.641$k91.28078@wards...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use in
> > BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
>
> Well, here's a selection:
>
> Level 1:
>
> Chromatic Orb - quick to cast, and the damage can't be saved against so it's
> good for disrupting spellcasters. At high caster level, the secondary
> effects are very powerful, right up to instant death, but can be saved
> against.
Magic missile works far better against anything with magic resistance,
as each missile checks individually.
> Level 9:
>
> Time Stop - highly effective spell, which effectively lets you 'instantly'
> perform 6 rounds' worth of tasks, including spellcasting, by stopping time
> for everyone else for that duration.
Time stop only lasts for four rounds.
Rob
choices. I might stand a chance in this game now!
Bob
"Trent Goulding" <trent.g...@mho.com> wrote in message
news:NuhIPPW==EGQhjsXuy...@4ax.com...
Mark Blunden
news:3C493463...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> Mark Blunden wrote:
> >
> > "Rob" <robert_...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> > news:43228.641$k91.28078@wards...
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use
in
> > > BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
> >
> > Well, here's a selection:
> >
> > Level 1:
> >
> > Chromatic Orb - quick to cast, and the damage can't be saved against so
it's
> > good for disrupting spellcasters. At high caster level, the secondary
> > effects are very powerful, right up to instant death, but can be saved
> > against.
>
> Magic missile works far better against anything with magic resistance,
> as each missile checks individually.
Good point.
> > Level 9:
> >
> > Time Stop - highly effective spell, which effectively lets you
'instantly'
> > perform 6 rounds' worth of tasks, including spellcasting, by stopping
time
> > for everyone else for that duration.
>
> Time stop only lasts for four rounds.
I thought it did, but I was going by the manual's description as I haven't
used it too often.
--
Mark.
mark.b...@ntlworld.com
* Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on
me.
Jeremiah
"Phaenar" <pha...@yahhoo.com> spake thusly:
> 1. Summon. Anything, just summon the darned thing and let my enemy be
> distracted while I hack them to bits. Summon is the equivalent of Confusion
> except there is virtually no save for your enemies except for killing or
> dispelling the summons. If your most powerful enemy is killing your summon
> he's likely not killing you!
At least in BG2:SoA, for general purpose use, cleric summons
are better than mage summons, IMO. Aerial Servants are great...
(though Mordy Swordy's are good for fighting Mind Flayers)
> 3. Haste. In battle it's the best overall party spell because I'm fighter
> intensive. Everyone doubles movement and gets an extra attack.
Haste also fatigues your party after it wears off, so that makes
it essentially useless to me...
Jeremiah
"Mark Blunden" <mark.blun...@ntlworld.com> spake thusly:
> Well, here's a selection:
>
> Level 1:
>
> Chromatic Orb - quick to cast, and the damage can't be saved against so it's
> good for disrupting spellcasters. At high caster level, the secondary
> effects are very powerful, right up to instant death, but can be saved
> against.
The BG2 manual says damage and effects can be saved against...
is it incorrect?
Talen
(Jeremiah) wrote:
>In article <qd328.380520$W8.14...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Phaenar" <pha...@yahhoo.com> spake thusly:
>> 1. Summon. Anything, just summon the darned thing and let my enemy be
>> distracted while I hack them to bits. Summon is the equivalent of Confusion
>> except there is virtually no save for your enemies except for killing or
>> dispelling the summons. If your most powerful enemy is killing your summon
>> he's likely not killing you!
>
> At least in BG2:SoA, for general purpose use, cleric summons
>are better than mage summons, IMO. Aerial Servants are great...
>(though Mordy Swordy's are good for fighting Mind Flayers)
Mordy sword is _the_ summoning, dude. ;p
--
Talen
http://shatteredreality.net/talen/
"Spandex Bear!"
"Styrofoam Rhino!"
"Masturbation Dingo!... wait..."
- Schmuck, Edson, and Jim Stanfield, goin' Maverick
The Gurus love you
Graeme Dice
Effects yes, damage no.
Graeme Dice
--
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." --Robert Firth
Jeremiah
Talen <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> spake thusly:
> It has been brought to my attention that br...@spam.to.dev.null
> (Jeremiah) wrote:
>
>> At least in BG2:SoA, for general purpose use, cleric summons
>>are better than mage summons, IMO. Aerial Servants are great...
>>(though Mordy Swordy's are good for fighting Mind Flayers)
>
> Mordy sword is _the_ summoning, dude. ;p
...as long as you can find a scroll for it, or have a Sorcerer.
Talen
(Jeremiah) wrote:
>In article <9npk4ucet56o0l5e3...@4ax.com>,
> Talen <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> spake thusly:
>> It has been brought to my attention that br...@spam.to.dev.null
>> (Jeremiah) wrote:
>>
>>> At least in BG2:SoA, for general purpose use, cleric summons
>>>are better than mage summons, IMO. Aerial Servants are great...
>>>(though Mordy Swordy's are good for fighting Mind Flayers)
>>
>> Mordy sword is _the_ summoning, dude. ;p
>
> ...as long as you can find a scroll for it, or have a Sorcerer.
Well, whoops, I guess I kept using the latter. 9.9;
Actually, I tell a lie, I found scrolls of Mordyswordy on Kuo-Toans.
--
Talen
http://shatteredreality.net/talen/
"You see a wile, you thwart. Am I right?"
- A. J. Crowley
The Gurus love you
Phaenar
"Jeremiah" <br...@spam.to.dev.null> wrote in message
news:u1t28.2649$kp6.2...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
> In article <qd328.380520$W8.14...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Phaenar" <pha...@yahhoo.com> spake thusly:
> > 1. Summon. Anything, just summon the darned thing and let my enemy be
> > distracted while I hack them to bits. Summon is the equivalent of
Confusion
> > except there is virtually no save for your enemies except for killing or
> > dispelling the summons. If your most powerful enemy is killing your
summon
> > he's likely not killing you!
>
> At least in BG2:SoA, for general purpose use, cleric summons
> are better than mage summons, IMO. Aerial Servants are great...
> (though Mordy Swordy's are good for fighting Mind Flayers)
Agreed; however, there are other uses for summons besides having summoned
monsters win the battle. They create a distraction and essentially cause
confusion among the enemy. A mage monster summon 1 can be quite useful to
cause enemies to attack in another direction. I have had invisible mages
sneak past enemies then summon monsters to have enemies withdraw so that I
can advance to a more advantageous position.
Problems with powerful monsters hacking your limbs off? Many monsters
become a bit of a joke when you have summons in the lead backed up by
effective ranged attacks from your party.
My favorite early to mid-game summon is the Druid fire elemental, followed
by skeletons (which mages have). Aerial servant is extremely powerful when
it becomes available but it takes a few levels before Anomen or Viconia can
cast it. Until then the druidic fire elemental really rules.
Invisible stalker is an extremely useful summon because enemies have a very
difficult time targeting it and it lasts a long time.
At 15th level clerics and mages get skeletal warriors which are quite
powerful and very magic resistant. These are awesome when you get them and
stay viable for a long time, especially against spellcasters. They are
perhaps the best summons against mind flayers, for example. Got enemies
casting charm/fear? Summon skeletons.
I did the planar sphere after returning from the Underdark. Two of Anomen's
skeletal warriors (one lucky summon, I got two warriors appearing) cleaned
out those idiotically annoying cowled wizards all by themselves. I cast
them and slammed the door shut and listened to all the screams and
explosions for a few minutes then when the ruckus died down I opened the
door and one skele was nearly dead, the other uninjured. I picked the
cowled corpses clean of loot. Granted it was a major weakness of the AI not
to use death fog to dispel them, but then it would have been friendly fire
and the cowls may have then attacked one another. In any event, they didn't
use any spell to destroy the summon which was fine by me.
I found that as a fighter/mage/thief my character picked most of his high
level mage spells as summon spells. I am into scouting ahead using
thieves/rangers (Valygar's the man!) and quite often I will remove my
Balduran Plate and summon a powerful elemental. Granted there is a chance
of failure but since my fmt goes into most battles armed/armored to the
teeth it is the most effective way for me to contribute high level spells to
the group. If it fails, I have to kill the summon and make do without it in
that case but they have been very useful. A 16 or 24 hit dice fire
elemental is not something to be trifled with, and even though the spell
doesn't last as long as the Druid version, neither is the Druid version as
powerful. I pick my battles when I use these creatures and find them very
effective as long as the party follows up with a coordinated assault.
Again, don't think of it as a summon so much as it is a guaranteed
distraction/confusion against which the computer has little or no save. Use
that time to gain the initiative and hammer your enemies.
>
>
> > 3. Haste. In battle it's the best overall party spell because I'm
fighter
> > intensive. Everyone doubles movement and gets an extra attack.
>
> Haste also fatigues your party after it wears off, so that makes
> it essentially useless to me...
Between my fmt and Imoen I have 3 hastes. I just cast it again and again
:-) By the time I've done three major battles where I require
haste/bless/chant/et. al., it's usually time to rest anyways. In any
insignificant battle the effects of fatigue on Mazzy and Valygar are
irrelevant, they demolish the field in short order. Everyone else has this
little pool we play as to which of them will get the next kill and which
monster will be it :-)
>
Kish
>
> I did the planar sphere after returning from the Underdark. Two of Anomen's
> skeletal warriors (one lucky summon, I got two warriors appearing) cleaned
> out those idiotically annoying cowled wizards all by themselves. I cast
> them and slammed the door shut and listened to all the screams and
> explosions for a few minutes then when the ruckus died down I opened the
> door and one skele was nearly dead, the other uninjured. I picked the
> cowled corpses clean of loot. Granted it was a major weakness of the AI not
> to use death fog to dispel them, but then it would have been friendly fire
> and the cowls may have then attacked one another.
Considering how often I've seen enemy wizards use Death Spell (no friendly fire
problems with that one), it probably had more to do with them not having a
summon-dispelling spell memorized--something that could even happen to a PC
wizard. Those two particular cowled wizards don't strike me as particularly
powerful examples of the order--one step above Enforcer duty, if that.
Mark Blunden
I thought so for ages and didn't bother with it, but after some
experimentation, yes, the damage gets through even when the secondary
effects are saved against.
--
Mark.
mark.b...@ntlworld.com
* Ah. Mind-taxing time again.
Derville
Rather than listing my favourite spells (some of which have already been
duplicated elsewhere), I thought I'd comment on the offensive/defensive
spell balance issue.
Offensive spells in BG2 are, in the main, the preserve of Mages, while
priests go more for defensive magic. Overlaps do exist, however, and IMHO
your average Cleric has better offensive spells than a Mage's selection of
defensive spells, which for me puts a Cleric just ahead in terms of
all-round ability. Also note that there's a difference between a Cleric and
a Druid, with the former getting a more useful spell selection, but the
latter having three or four absolutely killer spells which can make a lot of
early (and some of the later) fights far easier than if you didn't have
access to these spells (I'm thinking of Insect Plague, Call Woodland Beings,
Summon Fire Elemental etc).
Anyways, once you start off BG2, there's a tremendous urge to load up on all
the offensive spells going and hurl them at your foes. By my estimation,
you'll make it out of Irenicus' dungeon doing this, but you'll get toasted
within a couple of map screens in chapter 2 if you neglect the defensive
side of the game. Conversely, it's my opinion that if you load up purely on
defensive spells, you'll have much slower going through Irenicus' dungeon,
and life won't be easy in chapter 2, but you've got a better chance of
survival with a purely defensive spell arsenal than a purely offensive one.
Why? Because enemies in BG2 often fall into one of two camps: (1) insane
amounts of spell protections which render your attacking spells powerless,
or (2) the uber-ability known as Never Miss a Single Damn Saving Throw,
which always seems to strike me at the most inconvenient times. Sure, you
can improve your chances by hurling Greater Malisons at the enemy, but I'm
talking about trying to fry a group of Kobolds with a quick Fireball, and
seeing them duck for cover before charging at me. Some of the enemy saves
are almost beyond belief, and this should always be borne in mind when
dealing with a group of foes, because it has a seriously detrimental effect
on the usefulness of a lot of the area-effect offensive spells*.
Another extremely important thing to bear in mind in BG2 is that your
warriors are often stymied by the presence of enemies in class (1), because
they can't hit through their spell defences. However, enemies in class (2)
are often far easier prey, as saving throws don't necessarily translate into
AC levels. Hence the presence of three meatheads in your team, all swinging
for 3 attacks per round or so, can be far more devastating on class (2)
enemies than a Mage trying to calm them down with repeated Fireballs. Also,
I'll suggest that once you strip a class (1) enemy's defences, then your
warriors will chop him down at least as fast, if not faster, than a single
Mage could hope to achieve (as a quick example: a Monk at the XP cap will be
looking at about 4 attacks per round, and tends to hit for 30-40 damage per
attack, with a THAC0 well into negative figures. There's very few spells
which can deal 90-120 damage per round to a single enemy, and not all that
many enemies who can take that damage and survive it).
OK, so I've rambled a bit here. Where does this leave us? In short,
offensive magic is either area-effect, or targetted at individuals. Area
spells require skill to aim them correctly, and don't tend to do as much
damage to each enemy as targetting them singly with offensive spells.
Single target spells can do high damage, and inflict damaging side-effects
(i.e. Chromatic Orb, if anyone ever failed their save against it), but will
obviously only seek to affect one enemy per round. There's essentially a
trade-off here between looking to really hurt one guy, and seeking to
moderately hurt a lot of enemies (BG2 logic dictates the first option is the
only one worth considering, thanks to the mechanics which let a chap with
1HP hit as hard as when he had 100HP at the start of the fight).
Well, I think I've done my best to rubbish the offensive side of things ;-).
Defensive magic will not kill enemies, but it will stop/slow down your
people dying. If you're a weak character, this is a no-brainer - you *must*
defend yourself, because if you buy the farm then it's game over. Hence
defensive spells should, IMHO, be the first thing any BG2 player seeks to
understand fully. There is a second reason why I say this: your enemies are
not as stupid as they look, and will also throw up defensive spells. If you
know the spells, then you'll know how to get round them as well, and which
ones to try and dispel first. 'Know thy enemy' still holds true here.
For defence, Clerics work best for protecting a group, while Mages are good
at protecting themselves. Ergo, the soloist is more often a Mage type than
a Cleric type character. Mage spells will probably offer a greater degree
of protection (compare Stoneskin to most Clerical defensive spells), but
it's worth remembering that the purpose of defensive spells is to stack them
up until you're all but immune to everything up to and including small
nuclear explosions. I rate several Cleric spells very highly in this
regard - Prot from Evil 10' lasts for ages and gives a very useful boost to
AC (also when coupled with the 1st level, _stackable_, Prot from Evil);
Defensive Harmony, Pixie Dust, Bless, Chant etc are spells from 1st level
upwards of differing durations, but they all have appreciable effects in
combat. When stacked on top of one another, you end up with a formidable
defensive array.
Right, enough! Time to conclude, before my wrist gives way with all this
typing. Which are more important? Defensive spells. Without them you are
toast, plain and simple. Good Armours will get you so far, but eventually
you'll meet an enemy who does something which will bypass all your fancy AC
bonuses and will leave your team wandering round looking as though they're
auditioning for a remake of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. Defensive
spells *have* to be learned and employed as often as possible, because you
will fight a *lot* of Mages who choose to attack you in ways other than by
dealing direct damage. Stun, Fear, Chaos, all these things will be hurled
at you, and only spells will save your team. At the start of the game you
won't have magic resistance or superhuman saving throws, so counter-magic is
your only real defence.
Offensive magic is great when it strikes. You can theoretically wipe out
rooms full of enemies with one fell swoop. Not as easy in practice, because
things like timing come into play, as well as enemy spell protections**, but
it can make life a lot easier. I don't think it will kill as many enemies
as some might think, but it will hurt them badly when it strikes, and this
is what I think offensive magic is there to do - set things up for your
warriors to get easy kills. YMMV on this score, but that's how I'd play it.
Based on this, I'll leave you to decide whether this is more important than
defensive magic. I think my own thoughts are made quite clear in this post,
as I do have a distinct leaning towards prevention being better than cure
(in a smiting and blasting sort of way), but that's probably got just as
much to do with my playing style as it has to do with anything else. What
is for certain is that relying exclusively on one branch of the spell tree
is a surefire recipe for an early grave, and that a thorough understanding
of the pros and cons of each individual spell makes for a better use of
magic than an underlying philosophy on which areas of magic are 'better' or
'worse' than any others.
--
Phil (remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
"You know, Nordom you are perhaps the cutest little rogue modron I have ever
encountered."
"'Cutest' is a subjective term. I prefer the designation 'fearsome cubed
warrior.'"
"Of course! That's why you're so cute."
* Within reason, obviously. Casting Abi-Dalzim's on a group of Kobolds will
obliterate them, but hammers and walnuts come to mind here. I'm talking
about situations where your spells roughly match the enemies' levels, let's
say Fireball on Hobgoblins, or such like.
** The one class of spells I've not really looked at here are
magic-strippers (Breach, Lower Resistance, Ruby Ray etc), because I put them
into a third, discrete category. Because of BG2's love of high level
spellcasters, and the design philosophy that having to employ the AD&D
equivalent of a blowtorch should be a necessary first step in fighting these
guys, I firmly believe that everybody should be proficient in the use of
anti-magic spells. Naturally, Mages have the greater range of these types
of spells, which gives them an advantage. I'm not going to advocate Mages
as being better or worse than Clerics here, but I will say that by my
philosophy, unless you know exactly what you're doing, a Mage with access to
Breach et al is an absolute must when playing BG2, almost regardless of your
actual playing style.
Rob
I started playing BGII as a sorcerer loaded up on offensive spells (with the
idea of blowing the bad guys to pieces....) and it was damm hard. My party
kept getting flattened by the other sides spells which I had no answer
to....and when they where also immune to my spells, it wasn't much fun!
After reading the various responses to my post especially the one below I've
started again, this time playing a straight fighter and using Jaheira,
Aerie, Minsc, Nalia and Yoshimo (with Jaheira, Nalia and Aerie mostly loaded
up on defensive spells). I am finding the game soooo much easier....and
therefore much more enjoyable (it ain't fun being destroyed every
fight.....).
thanks for all the good advice
Bob
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a2encb$rk1$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Loketar
out just because there was some spells I hadn't used yet, or correctly.
"Graeme Dice" <grd...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C48B5DD...@sk.sympatico.ca...
Phaenar
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a2encb$rk1$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> news:43228.641$k91.28078@wards...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use
in
> > BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bob
Well first just let me say what an excellent analysis it is below, and I'll
add my couple of additional comments in between paragraphs.
>
> Rather than listing my favourite spells (some of which have already been
> duplicated elsewhere), I thought I'd comment on the offensive/defensive
> spell balance issue.
There is a third category which may be considered offensive but I call it
counter-battery. Spells that strike down enemy magic defenses, as opposed
to the enemies themselves. In order of most to least important I'd classify
them in this order:
1. Defensive. Most important that you don't die.
2. Counter-battery. Very important that you can make invulnerable enemies
vulnerable.
3. Offensive. Very helpful for specific situations.
Defensive and offensive spells are simple. You cast them. They go "boom"
or "snap" and they work.
Counter-battery spells are complex and it is difficult to learn how to use
them properly because you first need to learn how to recognize which magical
defenses your enemy has erected in order to effectively counter it. In
short, offensive and defensive spells are the Big Macs of AD&D magic. But a
counter-battery spell is like a fine pasta dish -- you can't overcook or
undercook it without ruining the whole thing, it has to be done just right.
You should begin carefully observing enemy mages (and to a lesser degree
clerics) early so you will recognize the kinds of defensive spells they
throw up throughout the game. They progress from simple things like
invisibility, protection from normal missiles, minor globe of
invulnerability and stoneskin to median level spells like shadow door and
mislead, and finally very powerful contingencies or time stop sequences that
can allow an enemy mage to put up mantles and spelltraps simultaneously.
Many creatures also have, or cast, magic resistance which gives them a flat
per cent chance to completely negate any magical effects cast against them.
Use counter-battery to effectively deal with this annoyance too.
Learning how to recognize these defenses and take them down efficiently is
an art. The farther you are into the game the more important this art
becomes, so start learning the art early by practice using your
counter-batteries against even the simple things like invisbility, mirror
image, minor globe of invulnerability, protection from normal missiles,
etc... Whatever the enemy mage throws up, watch for it, figure out the
appropriate counter-battery spell and let them have it.
For this reason I go into the game options and turn on all information
including to hit rolls, saves, sub-titles for sounds, everything I could
find. Whenever anyone casts a spell I can scroll back the dailog window and
see what they did. Before long you will recognize many magic defenses by
sight, but some are more subtle and can't be seen except via the
dialog/text.
>
> Offensive spells in BG2 are, in the main, the preserve of Mages, while
> priests go more for defensive magic. Overlaps do exist, however, and IMHO
> your average Cleric has better offensive spells than a Mage's selection of
> defensive spells, which for me puts a Cleric just ahead in terms of
> all-round ability. Also note that there's a difference between a Cleric
and
> a Druid, with the former getting a more useful spell selection, but the
> latter having three or four absolutely killer spells which can make a lot
of
> early (and some of the later) fights far easier than if you didn't have
> access to these spells (I'm thinking of Insect Plague, Call Woodland
Beings,
> Summon Fire Elemental etc).
I disagree with Clerics having better defesive spells. It really depends on
what you are doing. Clerics can cast some very good protections on the
party, but mages have extremely powerful spells to protect themselves
personally. That's the difference. One should never be without both a
cleric and mage in the party and one should always make sure their defensive
spells complement one another. For example, mages and clerics both get
chaotic commands so this allows you to divvy up spellcasting duties on that
spell in case you need one of them to cast a different spell of the same
level the other can take up the slack.
>
> Anyways, once you start off BG2, there's a tremendous urge to load up on
all
> the offensive spells going and hurl them at your foes. By my estimation,
> you'll make it out of Irenicus' dungeon doing this, but you'll get toasted
> within a couple of map screens in chapter 2 if you neglect the defensive
> side of the game. Conversely, it's my opinion that if you load up purely
on
> defensive spells, you'll have much slower going through Irenicus' dungeon,
> and life won't be easy in chapter 2, but you've got a better chance of
> survival with a purely defensive spell arsenal than a purely offensive
one.
I totally agree. With few exceptions I recommend diversity in spells for
general adventuring unless you are doing a picked battle against a known
enemy such as a Balor or a Dragon, for example -- in that case every single
spell ought to be tailored to that specific battle.
You really should from the get go start memorizing dispel magic, remove
magic, invisibility purge and spell thrust and such, and use them to see how
they work. (Note that dispel magic may seem kind of useless at low levels
because there is a counter effect based on the difference in the original
spellcasters level and that of the mage attempting to dispel. The higher
your level comapared to your enemy the more effective this spell becomes.)
For the offensive spells I do memorize I reserve them to put dents into
tough enemies who need a good denting.
>
> Why? Because enemies in BG2 often fall into one of two camps: (1) insane
> amounts of spell protections which render your attacking spells powerless,
> or (2) the uber-ability known as Never Miss a Single Damn Saving Throw,
> which always seems to strike me at the most inconvenient times. Sure, you
> can improve your chances by hurling Greater Malisons at the enemy, but I'm
> talking about trying to fry a group of Kobolds with a quick Fireball, and
> seeing them duck for cover before charging at me. Some of the enemy saves
> are almost beyond belief, and this should always be borne in mind when
> dealing with a group of foes, because it has a seriously detrimental
effect
> on the usefulness of a lot of the area-effect offensive spells*.
My comment is this: in camp (2) the never miss a saving throw I am 100% with
you there. I never use confusion or charm type spells against enemies
unless it's the last thing on Faerun available because it is basically next
to useless. That applies to any offensive spell that is negated by saves.
I carry charm to counteract enemy charms though. I use summons to confuse
and distract the enemy. Summons are cannon fodder: you want to charm or
confuse an enemy? Put up a summon right in the midst of enemy ranks and
watch them turn their attention away from your party.
Also find those spells that have no save or still do good damage even if a
save is made. Magic missile, Melf's Acid Arrow, Holy Smite (be careful
casting this near monsters you have summoned -- it is alignment based!).
The best outdoor offensive spell in my opinion is Call Lightning. This
druid spell rocks on damage, targets individual enemies and strikes
repeatedly. Saves allow half damage but that is still quite a lot when your
Druid is high level. Hostile shadow druids love to use this spell on your
party so be forewarned or be dead very fast -- protection from electricity
is your friend when fighting shadow druids.
>
> Another extremely important thing to bear in mind in BG2 is that your
> warriors are often stymied by the presence of enemies in class (1),
because
> they can't hit through their spell defences. However, enemies in class
(2)
> are often far easier prey, as saving throws don't necessarily translate
into
> AC levels. Hence the presence of three meatheads in your team, all
swinging
> for 3 attacks per round or so, can be far more devastating on class (2)
> enemies than a Mage trying to calm them down with repeated Fireballs.
Also,
> I'll suggest that once you strip a class (1) enemy's defences, then your
> warriors will chop him down at least as fast, if not faster, than a single
> Mage could hope to achieve (as a quick example: a Monk at the XP cap will
be
> looking at about 4 attacks per round, and tends to hit for 30-40 damage
per
> attack, with a THAC0 well into negative figures. There's very few spells
> which can deal 90-120 damage per round to a single enemy, and not all that
> many enemies who can take that damage and survive it).
I totally agree, excellent assessment. My party is all around 19th-20th
level now and my mage and cleric are basically on stand-by to
counter-battery enemy magical defenses that get in the way of my fighters.
They also have the offensive power to subdue unreasonably hostile enemies if
need be but that is kept in reserve for when it is needed.
>
> OK, so I've rambled a bit here. Where does this leave us? In short,
> offensive magic is either area-effect, or targetted at individuals. Area
> spells require skill to aim them correctly, and don't tend to do as much
> damage to each enemy as targetting them singly with offensive spells.
> Single target spells can do high damage, and inflict damaging side-effects
> (i.e. Chromatic Orb, if anyone ever failed their save against it), but
will
> obviously only seek to affect one enemy per round. There's essentially a
> trade-off here between looking to really hurt one guy, and seeking to
> moderately hurt a lot of enemies (BG2 logic dictates the first option is
the
> only one worth considering, thanks to the mechanics which let a chap with
> 1HP hit as hard as when he had 100HP at the start of the fight).
A great tactic with area effect spells is to send in a pointman well ahead
of everyone. When the enemy converges blast them to smithereens! You of
course need to have a tough pointman. I also recommend the appropriate
magic resistance against the blasting to smitherneens bit for your pointman.
>
> Well, I think I've done my best to rubbish the offensive side of things
;-).
> Defensive magic will not kill enemies, but it will stop/slow down your
> people dying. If you're a weak character, this is a no-brainer - you
*must*
> defend yourself, because if you buy the farm then it's game over. Hence
> defensive spells should, IMHO, be the first thing any BG2 player seeks to
> understand fully. There is a second reason why I say this: your enemies
are
> not as stupid as they look, and will also throw up defensive spells. If
you
> know the spells, then you'll know how to get round them as well, and which
> ones to try and dispel first. 'Know thy enemy' still holds true here.
Counter-battery. Practice practice practice. It's the only way to the Hall
of Wonders.
>
> For defence, Clerics work best for protecting a group, while Mages are
good
> at protecting themselves. Ergo, the soloist is more often a Mage type
than
> a Cleric type character. Mage spells will probably offer a greater degree
> of protection (compare Stoneskin to most Clerical defensive spells), but
> it's worth remembering that the purpose of defensive spells is to stack
them
> up until you're all but immune to everything up to and including small
> nuclear explosions. I rate several Cleric spells very highly in this
> regard - Prot from Evil 10' lasts for ages and gives a very useful boost
to
> AC (also when coupled with the 1st level, _stackable_, Prot from Evil);
> Defensive Harmony, Pixie Dust, Bless, Chant etc are spells from 1st level
> upwards of differing durations, but they all have appreciable effects in
> combat. When stacked on top of one another, you end up with a formidable
> defensive array.
An extra note on defense. As you get higher level you will cast all this
stuff then the first thing the enemy wizard does is to WHAM you with Breach
or something. Put up a spell shield or spell trap when that starts
happening. It won't initially but you will notice enemy wizards start
breaching after a certain point.
>
> Right, enough! Time to conclude, before my wrist gives way with all this
> typing. Which are more important? Defensive spells. Without them you
are
> toast, plain and simple. Good Armours will get you so far, but eventually
> you'll meet an enemy who does something which will bypass all your fancy
AC
> bonuses and will leave your team wandering round looking as though they're
> auditioning for a remake of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. Defensive
> spells *have* to be learned and employed as often as possible, because you
> will fight a *lot* of Mages who choose to attack you in ways other than by
> dealing direct damage. Stun, Fear, Chaos, all these things will be hurled
> at you, and only spells will save your team. At the start of the game you
> won't have magic resistance or superhuman saving throws, so counter-magic
is
> your only real defence.
Well said.
>
> Offensive magic is great when it strikes. You can theoretically wipe out
> rooms full of enemies with one fell swoop. Not as easy in practice,
because
> things like timing come into play, as well as enemy spell protections**,
but
> it can make life a lot easier. I don't think it will kill as many enemies
> as some might think, but it will hurt them badly when it strikes, and this
> is what I think offensive magic is there to do - set things up for your
> warriors to get easy kills. YMMV on this score, but that's how I'd play
it.
> Based on this, I'll leave you to decide whether this is more important
than
> defensive magic. I think my own thoughts are made quite clear in this
post,
> as I do have a distinct leaning towards prevention being better than cure
> (in a smiting and blasting sort of way), but that's probably got just as
> much to do with my playing style as it has to do with anything else. What
> is for certain is that relying exclusively on one branch of the spell tree
> is a surefire recipe for an early grave, and that a thorough understanding
> of the pros and cons of each individual spell makes for a better use of
> magic than an underlying philosophy on which areas of magic are 'better'
or
> 'worse' than any others.
I have to agree. I have an 18th level ranger getting 4 attacks per round
with haste and dual weapons dishing out approx 15-25 points of damage per
hit, doubled on a critical hit. Hits armor class 0 on about a -8 or
something I forget. It's hard to keep up with the body count.
Jeremiah
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> spake thusly:
>
> Anyways, once you start off BG2, there's a tremendous urge to load up on all
> the offensive spells going and hurl them at your foes. By my estimation,
> you'll make it out of Irenicus' dungeon doing this, but you'll get toasted
> within a couple of map screens in chapter 2 if you neglect the defensive
> side of the game.
>
> toast, plain and simple.
As someone who's been through BG2 2.5 times and BG1 2 times
using mostly offensive spells, I think the above statements are absurd.
Though that really depends upon what exactly you consider "offensive"
and "defensive"... I don't consider either Breach and its ilk or Dispel
Magic, True Seeing, etc. as defensive.
But it's possible to make it all the way through BG2 without
using Chant/Bless/Defensive Harmony, etc.
Jeremiah
Talen <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> spake thusly:
> It has been brought to my attention that br...@spam.to.dev.null
> (Jeremiah) wrote:
>>In article <9npk4ucet56o0l5e3...@4ax.com>,
>> Talen <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> spake thusly:
>>
>> ...as long as you can find a scroll for it, or have a Sorcerer.
>
> Well, whoops, I guess I kept using the latter. 9.9;
>
> Actually, I tell a lie, I found scrolls of Mordyswordy on Kuo-Toans.
...and wouldn't you know, my first game using a Sorcerer and I
find a MS scroll on a dead Trademeet militia... oh well, I'll save it
for Imoen, I guess.
Graeme Dice
I'd agree. The only defensive spells that both Imoen and my PC used all
the time were mirror image and stoneskin. My PC used protection from
magical energy, and protection from the elements for dangerous
spellcasters, and used protection from fire for dragons. Other than
that, my memorized spells were nothing but attack spells and summon
planetar. The clerics had about half offensive, and half defensive
spells.
Demogorgon went down in three to five rounds with this much firepower.
I used a spell trigger with three lower resistances, then a spell
sequencer with a chain lightning, and two flame arrows, then a two acid
arrow sequencer. Then Imoen did the same sort of things. The
simulacrums then did the same thing. My PC cast improved alacricity,
then dumped his entire offensive lineup on Demorgorgon. That makes one
dead prince of demons.
Graeme Dice
--
"We haven't the money, so we've got to think."
— Ernest Rutherford (1871-1937), British physicist.
Derville
"Jeremiah" <br...@spam.to.dev.null> wrote in message
Absurd? Well, that makes two direct responses in favour and one against to
date, so I'll not press the point too hard ;-).
Regarding Breach etc, I put in at the end of my post a little pointer to the
effect that I deliberately discounted spells of this type from my
(long-winded) analysis. I class Breach etc as a third class of spells, in
that they are specialsied in the removal of spell protections from enemy
characters, and as such should be learned by everybody as soon as possible.
For the record, I don't doubt for a minute that the experienced player, who
knows which items will duplicate the functions of various spells, can make
it through the BG games with very little defensive magic. I managed my
first run through BG1 with absolutely no defensive strategy at all, and
never got a cohesive plan for using Prot from Evil etc. However, from a
practical viewpoint, I submit that any newcomer to the BG games, based on my
experiences, will find life a *lot* easier, and also a fair bit more fun, if
he uses defensive spells wisely. Bad defence ultimately leads to player
deaths, which was a very strong reason why I ensured that I made out as
strong a case as possible for defensive magic, especially when dealing with
a request from someone who sounded to me as though they weren't sure which
way to approach playing BG2.
--
Phil
"Why, Nordom, are you trying to court me?"
"It was not my intention to initiate legal action against you."
(remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Derville
"Phaenar" <pha...@yahhoo.com> wrote in message
news:jBK28.313732$WW.14...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a2encb$rk1$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Rob" <robert_...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> > news:43228.641$k91.28078@wards...
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use
> in
> > > BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Bob
>
> Well first just let me say what an excellent analysis it is below, and
I'll
> add my couple of additional comments in between paragraphs.
*blushes* Wow, thanks! I couldn't persuade you to mark my coursework as
well, could I? ;-)
> There is a third category which may be considered offensive but I call it
> counter-battery. Spells that strike down enemy magic defenses, as opposed
> to the enemies themselves. In order of most to least important I'd
classify
> them in this order:
>
> 1. Defensive. Most important that you don't die.
> 2. Counter-battery. Very important that you can make invulnerable
enemies
> vulnerable.
> 3. Offensive. Very helpful for specific situations.
I'd agree with that classification (I mentioned it in my post, at the very
end), but personally I'd stress that there's a bigger gap (IMHO) between
categories 2 and 3 than there is between 1 and 2. Defensive magic and
anti-magic spells should be the mainstay of anyone's spell arsenal as they
try to learn the ropes in BG2.
> Many creatures also have, or cast, magic resistance which gives them a
flat
> per cent chance to completely negate any magical effects cast against
them.
> Use counter-battery to effectively deal with this annoyance too.
Not forgetting the best way of dealing with high magic resistance: cold
steel. Although out of place in a spells comparison (summoning spells
apart), this is the easiest way of bypassing pure MR.
> > IMHO
> > your average Cleric has better offensive spells than a Mage's selection
of
> > defensive spells, which for me puts a Cleric just ahead in terms of
> > all-round ability.
>
> I disagree with Clerics having better defesive spells. It really depends
on
> what you are doing. Clerics can cast some very good protections on the
> party, but mages have extremely powerful spells to protect themselves
> personally. That's the difference.
Agreed.
> One should never be without both a
> cleric and mage in the party and one should always make sure their
defensive
> spells complement one another. For example, mages and clerics both get
> chaotic commands so this allows you to divvy up spellcasting duties on
that
> spell in case you need one of them to cast a different spell of the same
> level the other can take up the slack.
I meant to make this point regarding Clerics and Druids as well. For the
three or four killer Druid spells they offer, a Druid character isn't worth
much, but as cover or as a complement to another Cleric character, they can
work well together.
> For the offensive spells I do memorize I reserve them to put dents into
> tough enemies who need a good denting.
This illustrates the horses for courses nature of some BG2 battles. Demons
are a convenient example of this - you can tailor your team to have specific
anti-demonic spells to hand (i.e. Bolt of Glory) which you might not
normally need to use, but which work well in a certain situation.
> > Why? Because enemies in BG2 often fall into one of two camps: (1)
insane
> > amounts of spell protections which render your attacking spells
powerless,
> > or (2) the uber-ability known as Never Miss a Single Damn Saving Throw,
> > which always seems to strike me at the most inconvenient times.
>
> My comment is this: in camp (2) the never miss a saving throw I am 100%
with
> you there. I never use confusion or charm type spells against enemies
> unless it's the last thing on Faerun available because it is basically
next
> to useless. That applies to any offensive spell that is negated by saves.
I'd disagree slightly here - spells which force enemies to save with a
penalty can be useful, especially when combined with a Greater Malison/Doom
sequence. The GM + Emotion + A.N. Other combo works nicely in a Sequencer
for dropping enemies to the canvas, because they effectively save against
the Emotion at -6, which does make a noticeable difference. Still never
manages to get the tricky enemies, though :-(.
> A great tactic with area effect spells is to send in a pointman well ahead
> of everyone. When the enemy converges blast them to smithereens! You of
> course need to have a tough pointman. I also recommend the appropriate
> magic resistance against the blasting to smitherneens bit for your
pointman.
You aren't suggesting to Fireball the guy with 100% fire resistance are you?
Ooohh, that's sneaky, but I do admit to having done that before in BG1 (also
worked well when fighting Phoenix Guards in BG1).
> An extra note on defense. As you get higher level you will cast all this
> stuff then the first thing the enemy wizard does is to WHAM you with
Breach
> or something. Put up a spell shield or spell trap when that starts
> happening. It won't initially but you will notice enemy wizards start
> breaching after a certain point.
After enough practice, one could do what I sometimes have Jan do now: cover
him in defensive magic, then chrge forward and hurl an area-effect spell
into the enemy's midst. Enemy spellcasters may Breach, but they will always
spend the first round getting their defences ready (Spell Triggers will
fire, etc). This gives Jan enough time to go invisible and scarper, to wait
for their spell defences to wear off, before returning. Again, not a
magic-related point strictly, but I think it shows that the magic system
can't be employed in isolation in the game, and that spells can be defeated
by other means than just throwing magical counter-spells at them. Plus,
it's really sneaky and fun to do on pesky Drow raiding parties ;-).
Phaenar
> >
> > Well first just let me say what an excellent analysis it is below, and
> I'll
> > add my couple of additional comments in between paragraphs.
>
> *blushes* Wow, thanks! I couldn't persuade you to mark my coursework as
> well, could I? ;-)
Don't get cocky.
>
> > There is a third category which may be considered offensive but I call
it
> > counter-battery. Spells that strike down enemy magic defenses, as
opposed
> > to the enemies themselves. In order of most to least important I'd
> classify
> > them in this order:
> >
> > 1. Defensive. Most important that you don't die.
> > 2. Counter-battery. Very important that you can make invulnerable
> enemies
> > vulnerable.
> > 3. Offensive. Very helpful for specific situations.
>
> I'd agree with that classification (I mentioned it in my post, at the very
> end), but personally I'd stress that there's a bigger gap (IMHO) between
> categories 2 and 3 than there is between 1 and 2. Defensive magic and
> anti-magic spells should be the mainstay of anyone's spell arsenal as they
> try to learn the ropes in BG2.
Yes, absolutely. Defense and counter-battery are really the meat and
potatoes of magic where offense is the gravy. There is little an offensive
spell can do that a steel weapon can't and the higher the level you go the
harder it is to compete with fighter damage when you start doing greater
whirlwinds wielding the Gith Silver Sword. Which reminds me, did I ever
mention how the halfling lass Mazzy Fenton killed the Red Dragon Firkraag on
the very first round of combat? Anyways, I digress. Some people say
halflings shouldn't be allowed to wield 2-handed swords but I just work
within the paramters of the game and I do very well :-)
As I said, for certain battles where the fighters are beating the pulp out
of my enemies there are occasions where I call upon the mages to help them
beat the pulp out even faster. When life servers you lemons, make pulp-free
lemonade!
I have had 7 cups of coffee this morning.
>
> > Many creatures also have, or cast, magic resistance which gives them a
> flat
> > per cent chance to completely negate any magical effects cast against
> them.
> > Use counter-battery to effectively deal with this annoyance too.
>
> Not forgetting the best way of dealing with high magic resistance: cold
> steel. Although out of place in a spells comparison (summoning spells
> apart), this is the easiest way of bypassing pure MR.
Yes. Also, for a high MR foe simply cast magic resistance which caps their
resistance at 40% then cast pierce magic which usually cuts that by half or
more. Problem solved!
There are a number of reasons I like Druids and the killer spells are many
of them but also the druid option I pick is Jaheira and she is one of my
favorite NPC's. I always say I will play an evil character one day and
romance Viconia, or play a good character and romance either Aerie or
Viconia with intent to convert, but really I can't envision it. Aerie and
Viconia just seem so shallow compared to Jaheira. Or maybe I just like that
whole hard-to-get thing she does ... for months ... and months ...
>
> > For the offensive spells I do memorize I reserve them to put dents into
> > tough enemies who need a good denting.
>
> This illustrates the horses for courses nature of some BG2 battles.
Demons
> are a convenient example of this - you can tailor your team to have
specific
> anti-demonic spells to hand (i.e. Bolt of Glory) which you might not
> normally need to use, but which work well in a certain situation.
Bolt of Glory is one of my favorites. Against undead, hahah, Sunray.
Anomen killed one of the Athkatla liches on the first shot, he did over 100
damage with a single Sunray and the lich simply exploded, battle over. He
did a similar thing to Bodhi's vampires when she shows up at the Graveyard
gate before the final confrontation and kidnapped Jaheira, Anomen used
Sunray to vaporize all of her vampirettes in one shot -- mind you they had
nothing on the lich they had less than 70 hit points I think his damage was
thereabouts, it was in the 70's anyways on that particular salvo.
>
> > > Why? Because enemies in BG2 often fall into one of two camps: (1)
> insane
> > > amounts of spell protections which render your attacking spells
> powerless,
> > > or (2) the uber-ability known as Never Miss a Single Damn Saving
Throw,
> > > which always seems to strike me at the most inconvenient times.
> >
> > My comment is this: in camp (2) the never miss a saving throw I am 100%
> with
> > you there. I never use confusion or charm type spells against enemies
> > unless it's the last thing on Faerun available because it is basically
> next
> > to useless. That applies to any offensive spell that is negated by
saves.
>
> I'd disagree slightly here - spells which force enemies to save with a
> penalty can be useful, especially when combined with a Greater
Malison/Doom
> sequence. The GM + Emotion + A.N. Other combo works nicely in a Sequencer
> for dropping enemies to the canvas, because they effectively save against
> the Emotion at -6, which does make a noticeable difference. Still never
> manages to get the tricky enemies, though :-(.
Emotion is a spell I never had for a long time until my last trip to
Athkatla when I decided to steal every remaining spell I still didn't have.
(I justified this as a "for the greater good" act because I am CG and I was
out to save the entire Elven City -- my people! -- and I could not afford
the spells I was broke at that stage.) I was reading here and there about
it though in the NG and taking a closer look at it I realized I can make
some use of it. I just don't know if it is worth exchanging for the spells
I have at that level, but I may experiment a bit. It's hard though, I
rarely ever rest my party to regain spells -- I did all of Irenicus'
dungeon, rescued Mazzy, got Valygar, did Nalia's keep and did Aran Linvails
things to get to spellhold and only rested twice in that time. Most of the
way the entire party was fatigued, having rested only twice in five or six
days, and we just hacked our way through with swords. In the entire
Underdark I rested twice. Once at the very start and once prior to taking
on Dierdex or whatever his name was. We just hacked our way through the
rest of it with swords (and my protagonists trusty 125% stealth/4x
backstab). It was my 2nd time through the game and I wanted to see how far
I could push the party.
Heck, when I got back to Athkatla the Githyanki attacked me in Waukeens
Promenade and I didn't even have a Cowled Wizard license so I hacked my way
through them, fatigued as I was, with swords as well. Poor Harold! He had
so enjoyed the circus only to be cut down at high noon in the middle of the
City of Coin by a careless Gith lightning bolt and his wife never spoke to
me again!
>
> > A great tactic with area effect spells is to send in a pointman well
ahead
> > of everyone. When the enemy converges blast them to smithereens! You
of
> > course need to have a tough pointman. I also recommend the appropriate
> > magic resistance against the blasting to smitherneens bit for your
> pointman.
>
> You aren't suggesting to Fireball the guy with 100% fire resistance are
you?
> Ooohh, that's sneaky, but I do admit to having done that before in BG1
(also
> worked well when fighting Phoenix Guards in BG1).
Yes I am absolutely suggesting it. Give the fighter a certain ring, shield
and helmet and send him charging into the enemy followed by some nice
non-nuclear but highly thermal explosions!
>
> > An extra note on defense. As you get higher level you will cast all
this
> > stuff then the first thing the enemy wizard does is to WHAM you with
> Breach
> > or something. Put up a spell shield or spell trap when that starts
> > happening. It won't initially but you will notice enemy wizards start
> > breaching after a certain point.
>
> After enough practice, one could do what I sometimes have Jan do now:
cover
> him in defensive magic, then chrge forward and hurl an area-effect spell
> into the enemy's midst. Enemy spellcasters may Breach, but they will
always
> spend the first round getting their defences ready (Spell Triggers will
> fire, etc). This gives Jan enough time to go invisible and scarper, to
wait
> for their spell defences to wear off, before returning. Again, not a
> magic-related point strictly, but I think it shows that the magic system
> can't be employed in isolation in the game, and that spells can be
defeated
> by other means than just throwing magical counter-spells at them. Plus,
> it's really sneaky and fun to do on pesky Drow raiding parties ;-).
I always tended to send in a fire elemental or two against numerous enemy
mages and let them duke it out for awhile then I would either send in more
cannon fodder or else join the battle with breachers/archers.
My favorite tactic against the lone enemy mage was simple: stealth +
backstab, me being a fighter/mage/thief it was ridiculously easy although
now they all start casting true sight as soon as I arrive. I suspect the AI
cheats on this since I now have 125% in both hide in shadows and move
silently but I could be wrong. It doesn't _always_ happen. I just find it
somewhat suspect that a dimwitted mage could hear me that well.
Wait...I'm a mage. Scatch that comment.
David Carson
> Emotion is a spell I never had for a long time until my last trip to
> Athkatla when I decided to steal every remaining spell I still didn't have.
> (I justified this as a "for the greater good" act because I am CG and I was
> out to save the entire Elven City -- my people! -- and I could not afford
> the spells I was broke at that stage.) I was reading here and there about
> it though in the NG and taking a closer look at it I realized I can make
> some use of it. I just don't know if it is worth exchanging for the spells
> I have at that level, but I may experiment a bit.
Emotion is outrageously overpowered and surely the best mid-level
offensive spell in the game. My Robe Of Vecna wearing Sorceror starts
out virtually every battle with an Emotion, and damn it's amazing. I
mean, look at it:
Emotion: 30' radius, only affects enemies, all must save or be
incapacitated.
Compare that to the other 4th level attack spells.
Confusion: same radius, -2 penalty to saves which is nice, but a
confused enemy can still hurt you, and often will.
Contagion: ever cast this? I sure haven't
Ice Storm: sure it lasts 4 rounds but the damage per round is so low, if
you can line up the enemy for an area-effect blast surely you'd rather
use a 3rd level fireball or skull trap and not have to worry about them
moving out of the storm.
Polymorph Other: only affects one enemy, why use this rather than Emotion?
To my mind, it even trumps many higher level spells, like Feeblemind,
Hold Monster, Disintegrate, Flesh To Stone, etc., by forcing multiple
enemies to "save or be fucked".
So that's my analysis.. now Greater Malison is an important spell,
Spider Spawn is fun when you get sword spiders, and I wouldn't blame you
if you filled your entire 4th level roster with Stoneskins. But don't
ignore Emotion! Dump your Confusions and Ice Storms and Polymorph
Others, for sure!
Cheers,
David...
Grand Negus of Weird
">
> >
> > > A great tactic with area effect spells is to send in a pointman well
> ahead
> > > of everyone. When the enemy converges blast them to smithereens! You
> of
> > > course need to have a tough pointman. I also recommend the
appropriate
> > > magic resistance against the blasting to smitherneens bit for your
> > pointman.
> >
> > You aren't suggesting to Fireball the guy with 100% fire resistance are
> you?
> > Ooohh, that's sneaky, but I do admit to having done that before in BG1
> (also
> > worked well when fighting Phoenix Guards in BG1).
>
> Yes I am absolutely suggesting it. Give the fighter a certain ring,
shield
> and helmet and send him charging into the enemy followed by some nice
> non-nuclear but highly thermal explosions!
in bg2, try shroud of flame instead of fireball. its a spell that keeps on
giving. and the super improved version is a fire elemental + shroud
gnow
Phaenar
"David Carson" <d...@deadgoths.com> wrote in message
news:3C4DCD26...@deadgoths.com...
> Phaenar wrote:
>
> > Emotion is a spell I never had for a long time until my last trip to
> > Athkatla when I decided to steal every remaining spell I still didn't
have.
> > (I justified this as a "for the greater good" act because I am CG and I
was
> > out to save the entire Elven City -- my people! -- and I could not
afford
> > the spells I was broke at that stage.) I was reading here and there
about
> > it though in the NG and taking a closer look at it I realized I can make
> > some use of it. I just don't know if it is worth exchanging for the
spells
> > I have at that level, but I may experiment a bit.
>
>
> Emotion is outrageously overpowered and surely the best mid-level
> offensive spell in the game. My Robe Of Vecna wearing Sorceror starts
> out virtually every battle with an Emotion, and damn it's amazing. I
> mean, look at it:
>
> Emotion: 30' radius, only affects enemies, all must save or be
> incapacitated.
Well sure but consider what the enemy mage might think when they see a
crazed female halfling charging at them with a Gith Vorpal Weapon and behind
her the dreaded mage-killer/hater himself, Valygar Corthala, dual-wielding
an electrically enchanted Katana and a Frostbrand Axe! That oughta instill
some fear too. And then at about that instant they get backstabbed by a
somewhat psychopathic elf (hey I survived the Jaheira romance and won, man)
wielding a couple of +3 longswords, one of them an artifact! I'd say all
semblance of enemy morale should collapse right there but that's just me.
The enemy they never learn :-)
>
> Compare that to the other 4th level attack spells.
>
> Confusion: same radius, -2 penalty to saves which is nice, but a
> confused enemy can still hurt you, and often will.
never use, enemy always seemed to save against it
>
> Contagion: ever cast this? I sure haven't
never use, seems irrelevant for non-fighters
>
> Ice Storm: sure it lasts 4 rounds but the damage per round is so low, if
> you can line up the enemy for an area-effect blast surely you'd rather
> use a 3rd level fireball or skull trap and not have to worry about them
> moving out of the storm.
never use, unwieldy to target fast moving enemies
>
> Polymorph Other: only affects one enemy, why use this rather than Emotion?
never use, enemy always seemed to save against it
>
> To my mind, it even trumps many higher level spells, like Feeblemind,
> Hold Monster, Disintegrate, Flesh To Stone, etc., by forcing multiple
> enemies to "save or be fucked".
never use never use never use...., enemy always seemed to save against them
at low levels hold person worked good but now the enemy usually saves
against it, so i quit using it
>
> So that's my analysis.. now Greater Malison is an important spell,
> Spider Spawn is fun when you get sword spiders, and I wouldn't blame you
> if you filled your entire 4th level roster with Stoneskins. But don't
> ignore Emotion! Dump your Confusions and Ice Storms and Polymorph
> Others, for sure!
My 4th level spell list reads something like this:
greater malaison; improved invisibility; (minor sequencer when reload is
required); secret word; spider spawn; stoneskin; wizard eye
Considering my spider spawn summons 1 or 2 sword spiders it's pretty
effective for my purpose: that is yet another of my many effective
distractions for an enemy spellcasters. I admit though, now that I've
looked at this the manual doesn't list a saving throw penalty for emotion
that's why I never used it. I find web is more effective than many spells
for two reasons: the save against it is at -2 and even if the enemy saves
they have to check every round and are usually too dumb to move out of the
area of effect so they innevitably end up tangled/immobilized for a number
of rounds. But many say good things about emotion so I will give it a try
at next opportunity.
Between my two mages I have a couple of wizard eyes because I like directing
my summoned creatures from afar. I could do without one.
>
> Cheers,
> David...
>
Al Neill
Rob wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend the top 20 spells for use in
> BGII. Are offensive or defensive spells more important?
>
> Thanks
> Bob
One (druid) spell that is often under valued is Insect Swarm. I have
had great success using Insect Swarm on opposing wizards, though
not so much with liches...
Last night when some mercenaries came after my group, I used insect
swarm on the mage and it spread to the cleric standing next to them.
Then the mage turned out to be powerful enough to cast time stop,
but he was never able to get off a spell during his time stop as the
insects kept biting him throughout (this may be a "bug" ;)
- Al
Derville
> "Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a2kb41$e7g$3...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > Well first just let me say what an excellent analysis it is below, and
> > I'll
> > > add my couple of additional comments in between paragraphs.
> >
> > *blushes* Wow, thanks! I couldn't persuade you to mark my coursework as
> > well, could I? ;-)
>
> Don't get cocky.
Lol ;-)
> > Defensive magic and
> > anti-magic spells should be the mainstay of anyone's spell arsenal as
they
> > try to learn the ropes in BG2.
>
> Yes, absolutely. Defense and counter-battery are really the meat and
> potatoes of magic where offense is the gravy. There is little an
offensive
> spell can do that a steel weapon can't and the higher the level you go the
> harder it is to compete with fighter damage when you start doing greater
> whirlwinds wielding the Gith Silver Sword.
Maybe this is just me (I've done no tests to prove or disprove this theory),
but a high level warrior with a powerful weapon (let's say a Monk with
Gauntlets of Crushing) and multiple attacks per round seems to do more
damage on average per round than any Mage spell, when measures over a period
of time. It seems to be far harder to save against melee damage than to
save against spell damage (assuming no magical defences in operation) in
BG2, despite saving throws getting down to negative numbers (from a starting
pointof 20 or so) and AC again roughly dropping by 20 points or so for the
better armoured opponents. I guess that means no spells really match up
to -10 THAC0 scores.
> > Not forgetting the best way of dealing with high magic resistance: cold
> > steel. Although out of place in a spells comparison (summoning spells
> > apart), this is the easiest way of bypassing pure MR.
>
> Yes. Also, for a high MR foe simply cast magic resistance which caps
their
> resistance at 40% then cast pierce magic which usually cuts that by half
or
> more. Problem solved!
Ho hum, that trick's a wee bit buggy. People have used it on Firkraag etc,
and that suggests to me (along with the blue background to the spell,
indicating its' defensive origins) that the spell itself is, how can I put
this, the product of the same guy who created the weapon proficiency charts
for BG2.
> > I meant to make this point regarding Clerics and Druids as well. For
the
> > three or four killer Druid spells they offer, a Druid character isn't
> worth
> > much, but as cover or as a complement to another Cleric character, they
> can
> > work well together.
>
> There are a number of reasons I like Druids and the killer spells are many
> of them but also the druid option I pick is Jaheira and she is one of my
> favorite NPC's.
The mind boggles... Give me an honest to goodness Gnome any day of the
week, personally.
> > I'd disagree slightly here - spells which force enemies to save with a
> > penalty can be useful, especially when combined with a Greater
> Malison/Doom
> > sequence. The GM + Emotion + A.N. Other combo works nicely in a
Sequencer
> > for dropping enemies to the canvas, because they effectively save
against
> > the Emotion at -6, which does make a noticeable difference. Still never
> > manages to get the tricky enemies, though :-(.
>
> Emotion is a spell I never had for a long time until my last trip to
> Athkatla when I decided to steal every remaining spell I still didn't
have.
> (I justified this as a "for the greater good" act because I am CG and I
was
> out to save the entire Elven City -- my people! -- and I could not afford
> the spells I was broke at that stage.) I was reading here and there about
> it though in the NG and taking a closer look at it I realized I can make
> some use of it. I just don't know if it is worth exchanging for the
spells
> I have at that level, but I may experiment a bit.
The best bit about Emotion for someone like me who can never synchronise
these spells is that if you hit your own team, not only do you run no risk
at all of damaging them, the spell actually boosts their own morale levels
when it strikes. A real double bonus, as it manages to leave a lot of
enemies lying comatose at the same time (this spell took down the Beholder
and the warrior in the Twisted Rune for me, so it can't be too shabby).
Graeme Dice
>
> "Phaenar" <pha...@yahhoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Eaj38.316392$WW.14...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
> > Yes, absolutely. Defense and counter-battery are really the meat and
> > potatoes of magic where offense is the gravy. There is little an
> offensive
> > spell can do that a steel weapon can't and the higher the level you go the
> > harder it is to compete with fighter damage when you start doing greater
> > whirlwinds wielding the Gith Silver Sword.
>
> Maybe this is just me (I've done no tests to prove or disprove this theory),
> but a high level warrior with a powerful weapon (let's say a Monk with
> Gauntlets of Crushing) and multiple attacks per round seems to do more
> damage on average per round than any Mage spell, when measures over a period
> of time. It seems to be far harder to save against melee damage than to
> save against spell damage (assuming no magical defences in operation) in
> BG2, despite saving throws getting down to negative numbers (from a starting
> pointof 20 or so) and AC again roughly dropping by 20 points or so for the
> better armoured opponents. I guess that means no spells really match up
> to -10 THAC0 scores.
Fighters damage one creature at a time, mages damage multiple targets.
One Abi-Dhazzim's Horrid Wilting does 20D8 damage, with a save for half
to every creature in the area. That's 20-160 damage with an average of
90 damage to 45 damage with a save. To get better overall damage than a
fighter, this spell needs to be cast in a large group of non-magic
resistant monsters. Unfortunately, BG2 goes for small groups of highly
resistant monsters.
Graeme Dice
--
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are
not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer
to reality.
-- Albert Einstein
Phaenar
That is true, Abi-Dhazzim's is a great spell but considering that other
spells of 8th level include Pierce Shield, Simulacrum and Spell Trigger it's
a tough bit of real estate to sub-divide. Especially considering the magic
resistance factor. I guess if BG2/ToB didn't innundate you with hordes of
18th+ level wizards I could see loading up on Abi-Dhaz and blasting through
everything but it seems almost anti-climactic by the time you get it because
enemies are so resistant it's more critical to spend spell slots on things
to deal with that instead.
Graeme Dice
>
> "Graeme Dice" <grd...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3C50C4D2...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> > Derville wrote:
<snip>
> > Fighters damage one creature at a time, mages damage multiple targets.
> > One Abi-Dhazzim's Horrid Wilting does 20D8 damage, with a save for half
> > to every creature in the area. That's 20-160 damage with an average of
> > 90 damage to 45 damage with a save. To get better overall damage than a
> > fighter, this spell needs to be cast in a large group of non-magic
> > resistant monsters. Unfortunately, BG2 goes for small groups of highly
> > resistant monsters.
>
> That is true, Abi-Dhazzim's is a great spell but considering that other
> spells of 8th level include Pierce Shield, Simulacrum and Spell Trigger it's
> a tough bit of real estate to sub-divide.
You only need one simulacrum, if any at all, and ruby ray and lower
resistance do exactly the same things as pierce shield. I wouldn't have
spell trigger memorized every day, use it to store spells, and then
replace it with something more useful.
> Especially considering the magic
> resistance factor. I guess if BG2/ToB didn't innundate you with hordes of
> 18th+ level wizards I could see loading up on Abi-Dhaz and blasting through
> everything but it seems almost anti-climactic by the time you get it because
> enemies are so resistant it's more critical to spend spell slots on things
> to deal with that instead.
TOB has hardly any wizards compared to SOA. What TOB has lots of is of
magic-resistant heavy-hitters. Greater elementals, greater demons, and
so on. Fire giants, while common, and hard-hitting, are only really
resistant to fire. Entire parties of drow can be taken down in a few
rounds by having two mages cast three wiltings each.
Derville
"Graeme Dice" <grd...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C50C4D2...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> Derville wrote:
> >
theory),
> > but a high level warrior with a powerful weapon (let's say a Monk with
> > Gauntlets of Crushing) and multiple attacks per round seems to do more
> > damage on average per round than any Mage spell, when measures over a
period
> > of time. It seems to be far harder to save against melee damage than to
> > save against spell damage (assuming no magical defences in operation) in
> > BG2, despite saving throws getting down to negative numbers (from a
starting
> > pointof 20 or so) and AC again roughly dropping by 20 points or so for
the
> > better armoured opponents. I guess that means no spells really match up
> > to -10 THAC0 scores.
>
> Fighters damage one creature at a time, mages damage multiple targets.
> One Abi-Dhazzim's Horrid Wilting does 20D8 damage, with a save for half
> to every creature in the area. That's 20-160 damage with an average of
> 90 damage to 45 damage with a save. To get better overall damage than a
> fighter, this spell needs to be cast in a large group of non-magic
> resistant monsters. Unfortunately, BG2 goes for small groups of highly
> resistant monsters.
The problem with damaging multiple targets is that the Mage rarely kills
them in one round, whereas the warrior can often kill one enemy per round.
Given the BG2 system which lets a guy with 1HP hit you as hard as a guy with
100HP, I tend to avoid area effect spells almost completely now as a means
of softening up the enemy. I most certainly don't memorise any such spells,
preferring to use wands, and the fact that my wand of Fire is set to Aggie's
Scorcher ASAP is testimony to how much faith I put in the effectiveness of
spells.
However, you hit the nail on the head at the end there. BG2 gives you
access to these lovely high level spells, but only so that Liches in chapter
2 can hurl them at your group. By the time you can cast them yourself, the
enemy is very often magic resistant (Drow) or has fabulous saving throws,
forcing you to go for that smaller group of spells which bypass saving
throws entirely (Symbol:XXX and the like). In fact, it seems a bit ironic
that the guys who should have the hardest time staying alive consist of the
offspring of a deity, the most powerful wizard I've had the good fortune to
meet, and the odd warrior with access to more immunities than Glaxo.