Racial Enemy? (now includes spoilers for late BG2)
Htn963
>racist ********s", and walking off and leaving them to deal with
>Irenicus themselves, while still being able to continue the
>game, I would have done so. I came sooo close to kicking Jaheira
>out of the party at that point.
>
>Paul Speaker-to-Customers
>------------------------------------------
Now, now, you're not giving Jaheria enough credit and I think you are
close to committing reverse prejudice by lumping her with the bigoted elves
just because of her elven heritage. She, like Minsc, was one of the few npc
who openly stated that she didn't mind having Viconia in the party. Sure, she
still distrusts most drow, but can also see past surface appearances and based
her judgment on character, e.g. her unreserved admiration for Drizzt Do'Urden.
Some of her antagonism for Vic, of course, also sprung out of their rivalry
for the pc's attention.
Speaker-to-Customers
I never heard her say a favourable word about Drizzt. And my
anger at her was because of what she said directly to Viconia -
"Yes, swear loyalty, and then when you break your word I'll be
able to tell everyone 'I told you you couldn't trust a Drow'"
(I may have paraphrased her slightly, but that was definitely
the gist of her comments).
Jaheira is just not a nice character. Her blind devotion to
neutrality, leading her to complain bitterly whenever you do
anything whatsoever that is good, makes her far more unpleasant
than many nominally evil characters.
I only kept her in the party because 1) I felt I owed her the
chance to avenge Khalid; and 2) because by that stage of the game
she was an awesome combat wombat. Next time through, I'm going
to leave her in Irenicus' cage.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
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Htn963
You must have somehow missed Jaheira's dialogue when your party met up
with Drizzt and his band after getting out of the underdark -- she expressed
her praise and trust in Drizzt and recommend you work with him. If you only
have Viconia, Vic would have said, iirc, "do you really have to troll for
another drow... though he is on the luscious side.."
>And my
>anger at her was because of what she said directly to Viconia -
>"Yes, swear loyalty, and then when you break your word I'll be
>able to tell everyone 'I told you you couldn't trust a Drow'"
Fair enough, I suppose, but that could also be interpreted as Jaheira's
way of challenging Viconia to keep her honor, like kids daring each other on to
do or not do something. At least she lets her know where you stand with her
and don't play games, another quality I admire in a woman.
>Jaheira is just not a nice character.
And Viconia, who slaughtered innocents for years in the name of Lloth, who
burned her last husband and sister alive in bed together, who cruelly mocks
Aerie for losing her wings, who herself think Jaheira's beneath her as a
lowly mongrel, is? Niceness, like beauty, is in the eye...
>Her blind devotion to
>neutrality, leading her to complain bitterly whenever you do
>anything whatsoever that is good, makes her far more unpleasant
>than many nominally evil characters.
This is where I think you're really stretching and being unfair:
Jaheira only complains, as all neutral alignment characters have to do anyway,
when your reputation goes above 18 -- the fault lies more with the stupid AD&D
alignment system. And you may also have missed Jaheira's following actions
that more properly belong to someone of good rather than neutral alignment:
she'll prevent you from trying to sell Valygar out to the Cowled Wizards,
object if you act mean to a child in need, e.g. the kid outside the Promenade's
circus, and fight you if you take the evil path by trying to kill the snirvebin
(sp) leader for the light gem outright instead of taking on Balor.
If you must direct your anger at racism towards Drow, I think much more
proper candidates are Keldorn and Mazzy -- two people whom I definitely do not
think deserve their lawful good status, or who may, ironically, have proven
Jaheira's point about balance, that leaning too much in either direction can
produce poor results.
I respect and understand that you don't like Jaheira (I didn't like her
myself in BG1), but I do not think she is the proper scapegoat for your vent
in this direction.
Speaker-to-Customers
htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:
>>I never heard her say a favourable word about Drizzt.
>
> You must have somehow missed Jaheira's dialogue when your party met up
>with Drizzt and his band after getting out of the underdark -- she expressed
>her praise and trust in Drizzt and recommend you work with him. If you only
>have Viconia, Vic would have said, iirc, "do you really have to troll for
>another drow... though he is on the luscious side.."
No dialogue anything like that occurred - perhaps because I
had worked with Drizzt in BG1, and automatically took the
dialogue options which reflected me regarding him as a friend.
Or perhaps it was a bug.
>>And my
>>anger at her was because of what she said directly to Viconia -
>>"Yes, swear loyalty, and then when you break your word I'll be
>>able to tell everyone 'I told you you couldn't trust a Drow'"
>
> Fair enough, I suppose, but that could also be interpreted as Jaheira's
>way of challenging Viconia to keep her honor, like kids daring each other on to
>do or not do something. At least she lets her know where you stand with her
>and don't play games, another quality I admire in a woman.
>
>>Jaheira is just not a nice character.
>
> And Viconia, who slaughtered innocents for years in the name of Lloth, who
>burned her last husband and sister alive in bed together, who cruelly mocks
>Aerie for losing her wings, who herself think Jaheira's beneath her as a
>lowly mongrel, is? Niceness, like beauty, is in the eye...
Yes, but Viconia is supposed to be evil. She mellows as the
game goes on. Jaheira doesn't.
>>Her blind devotion to
>>neutrality, leading her to complain bitterly whenever you do
>>anything whatsoever that is good, makes her far more unpleasant
>>than many nominally evil characters.
>
> This is where I think you're really stretching and being unfair:
>Jaheira only complains, as all neutral alignment characters have to do anyway,
>when your reputation goes above 18 -- the fault lies more with the stupid AD&D
>alignment system. And you may also have missed Jaheira's following actions
>that more properly belong to someone of good rather than neutral alignment:
>she'll prevent you from trying to sell Valygar out to the Cowled Wizards,
>object if you act mean to a child in need, e.g. the kid outside the Promenade's
>circus, and fight you if you take the evil path by trying to kill the snirvebin
>(sp) leader for the light gem outright instead of taking on Balor.
If she didn't act good, I wouldn't mind her talking neutral so
much. If you follow her advice all the time, she moans at you
for being too nice! Also, as I always take the good option
automatically, I missed most of the examples you quote. Why
would anyone turn "yer man" Valygar over to the loathsome
Cowled Wizards (who are holding Imoen prisoner)? Who acts mean
to children? Why would anyone attack the peaceful Svirfneblin,
when they could fight a demon? However, perhaps I should have
said "irritating" rather than "unpleasant".
> If you must direct your anger at racism towards Drow, I think much more
>proper candidates are Keldorn and Mazzy -- two people whom I definitely do not
>think deserve their lawful good status, or who may, ironically, have proven
>Jaheira's point about balance, that leaning too much in either direction can
>produce poor results.
I dropped Mazzy and Keldorn for exactly that reason. Extreme
Lawful Good becomes almost Fascism - a point clearly made in the
second Dragonlance Trilogy. However, I had forgotten why I
dropped Mazzy until you reminded me.
> I respect and understand that you don't like Jaheira (I didn't like her
>myself in BG1), but I do not think she is the proper scapegoat for your vent
>in this direction.
Okay, point taken. It was just the wrong time for her to come
out with that remark, when I was so furious with the Elf general,
and boiling with frustration because it's one of those "instant
kill" situations where you get wiped out if you act in a way
that jeopardises the completion of the game. What I wanted to
do was push the general's (Elbarn?) teeth down his throat, but I
couldn't do so and live - so Jaheira became the scapegoat.
Sorry.
Incidentally, it's not the AD&D alignment system which is to
blame, it's the BG interpretation of it. In P&P AD&D, neutral
characters will happily hang out with good characters, doing good
all the time, knowing that the good party's actions are balancing
out evil elsewhere. Only if good becomes too dominant in the
area as a whole will they object - even then they don't usually
mind Chaotic good, knowing us nice CGs will live and let live.
Also, evil characters in P&P AD&D will hang out with good
characters, and bask in the glory of a heroic reputation. Why
not? It makes their lives easier and more comfortable, and one
of the prime qualities of evil is selfishness. If they can get
rich and famous by hanging out with the good guys, while not
themselves doing anything good without expecting to gain rich
rewards from it, then fine. When they walk out is when the good
guys end up poor, and without influential friends.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
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Htn963
>out with that remark, when I was so furious with the Elf general,
>and boiling with frustration because it's one of those "instant
>kill" situations where you get wiped out if you act in a way
>that jeopardises the completion of the game. What I wanted to
I understand, and your passion and sense of justice does you credit:)
FWIW, I always found the geas scene hard to take and always wanted to kill
those elven s.o.b.'s, even when Viconia wasn't my love interest. The only
other event in BG2 that ever put me in more rage was when (as I also related
to G.B.) Mazzy said to Viconia to the effect: "...our leader may be stupid
enough to let your kind join the party, but I'll see you dead."
>Incidentally, it's not the AD&D alignment system which is to
>blame, it's the BG interpretation of it. In P&P AD&D, neutral
>characters will happily hang out with good characters, doing good
>all the time, knowing that the good party's actions are balancing
>out evil elsewhere. Only if good becomes too dominant in the
>area as a whole will they object - even then they don't usually
>mind Chaotic good, knowing us nice CGs will live and let live.
>
>Also, evil characters in P&P AD&D will hang out with good
>characters, and bask in the glory of a heroic reputation. Why
>not? It makes their lives easier and more comfortable, and one
>of the prime qualities of evil is selfishness. If they can get
>rich and famous by hanging out with the good guys, while not
>themselves doing anything good without expecting to gain rich
>rewards from it, then fine. When they walk out is when the good
>guys end up poor, and without influential friends.
>
>Paul Speaker-to-Customers
Yes, the pnp implementation of alignment does sound much more flexible and
realistic -- they might have done an adequate, if clumsy job in portraying
neutrality in BG2, but certainly flunked in portraying evil. I have always
felt that things should usually be easier and profitable the evil way, just
like real life. BTW, there was an extended discussion (over 100 posts) over
at the comp.sys.ibm.pc.rpg group months ago on whether Viconia could even
properly be classed as evil, especially towards the end -- tentative
conclusion: chaotic neutral.