Archery Experiment Results
Westley Weimer
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A few posts ago I mentioned that I was curious about how archery actually
worked out in the game and that I was going to run some experiments.
Here are the great archery bake-off results. In previous posts I have
attempted to do a theoretical analysis of weapon properties. This time we
let the game engine sort out all the math.
All tests were conducted with 13th level Archers and Kensai having 19 STR
and DEX and as many *'s as possible in all appropriate proficiencies. The
best character was chosen to represent each weapon/configuration. The
target was a PC with Nalia's picture, 5000 HP and AC -8. +2 Bullets, Acid
Arrows and Bolts of Lightning were used (except for the Gesen Short Bow).
The assailant was allowed to attack the target for 60 seconds of real time
(at 40 frames per second). This was about 60 shots with the normal Tuigan.
Some tests were conducted using Oil of Speed (nominally +1 attack, but see
below) and/or 22-Strength potions. The "[Shots]" column indicates the
average amount of ammunition consumed in the non-oil case. For kicks,
some melee (non-ranged) results are also given at the bottom. All figures
are normalized to the Tuigan Short Bow standard: 1.000 = 738 points of
damage.
Results
~~~~~~~
Normal OilSpd 22Str Oil+22Str [ Shots ]
Gesen Short Bow 0.87127 0.88618 0
Tuigan Short Bow 1.00000 1.24932 60
Sling of Seeking 1.04878 1.27236 1.22493 1.31707 40
Strong Arm Long Bow 1.06911 1.26965 54
Thrown Rifthome Axe 1.11789 1.12195 1.16531
Light X-Bow of Speed 1.12060 1.17615 54
Giant Hair Heavy X-Bow 1.12602 1.45664 40
**
Rifthome Axe 1.34146
Celestial Fury & DZB 1.68835 1.88347
Crom Faeyr 1.73442
Crom Faeyr & +2Hammer 1.97290
Analysis
~~~~~~~~
The difference between repeated trials for this experiment was generally
much less than 0.10 units.
First, a note about the "interesting" Oil of Speed results. An Archer with
5 attacks per round using the Tuigan Bow is boosted to 6, but an Archer
with 9/2 attacks per round using the Gesen Bow (or any other
non-speed-increasing weapon) is only boosted to 5. Similarly, the Kensai
with the Thrown Rifthome Axe only goes from 7/2 to 4.
The first thing I noticed is that crossbows, which are generally neglected
by players here (at least in my experience) are in fact the bomb. They have
the highest "natural" damage among the missile weapons. They really shine,
however, when hasted. The extra attack means more for the crossbow than for
any other weapon. An improved-hasted crossbow archer would be obscene. The
crossbow will also kill the enemy earlier than another weapon.
The second thing to notice is that the un-hasted Sling of Seeking with a
Super Strong character is better than any other un-hasted missile weapon
(including the Axe). This is what the Jaheira supporters have been telling
us all along. :-) But note that with a "mere" 19 Strength it is still in
the bottom half of the rankings.
The third thing that strikes me is the Axe. Unless you were quite careful
and picked a crossbow archer or played some tricks with hasting /
strengthening your archer, a Kensai with this thing is actually a better
ranged fighter.
The "shots" column is not to be neglected and argues in favor of the Axe
and the crossbows. Especially in a Solo game. 60 Acid arrows can burn a
hole in your wallet almost as fast as they burn a hole in the enemy,
especially in the early game.
Finally, melee weapons rock (but we knew this) and Crom really is the best
(again, bien entendu). Two-Weapon-Style really does pay off more than
Single-Weapon-Style's critical-hit bonus (especially since we're not
worried about the attacker getting hit). Also note that Crom's advantage
over an easy-to-acquire potion is not all that grand.
Happy hacking. If you have any questions about the methodology or any
comments about the results, feel free to chime in.
- Wes
Mark Blunden
news:9g97ak$1ie8$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
<Snip very interesting analysis>
> Similarly, the Kensai with the Thrown Rifthome Axe only goes from 7/2 to
> 4.
I'm currently playing a half-orc Barbarian who favours the Azuredge throwing
axe as his ranged weapon (as you say it's much cheaper - and easier on the
inventory - than his initial choice of a crossbow) and I haven't come across
the Rifthome axe, just Azuredge and the Dwarven Thrower. Is Rifthome better
than Azuredge, and if so where can I find it?
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* So much time, so little to do
Nadazgada
Westley Weimer <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9g97ak$1ie8$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
>
> by players here (at least in my experience) are in fact the bomb. They
have
> the highest "natural" damage among the missile weapons. They really shine,
> however, when hasted. The extra attack means more for the crossbow than
for
> any other weapon. An improved-hasted crossbow archer would be obscene. The
> crossbow will also kill the enemy earlier than another weapon.
>
I really want to disagree with the above. BUT Im using Keldorn with a
crossbow now, having a current THAC0 of -4 or something. With him hasted, I
have to agree with ya. Anyway, nice insight man.
--
'Gnaag WILL fall...'
Nadazgada
Kraagenskull's loyal servant.
MadLOL
(bodhi's quests in docks district)
Combat Abilities:
Axe returns to the wielder's hand instantly
after an attack is made
THACO: +3 bonus
Damage: 1D6 + 3
Damage type (melee): slashing
Damage type (thrown): missile (piercing)
Special: Returns to user's hand once thrown
Weight: 2
Speed Factor: 1
Proficiency Type: Axe
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 4 Strength
Not Usable By:
Druid
Cleric
Mage
Thief
"Mark Blunden" <mar...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:9gaavv$7r9nr$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de...
Dean Jarratt
bug with Azuredge which gives it a 3d6 thrown damage....which is obviously
way too much. However 'as if to make up for this' it doesn't destroy undead
as it should either.
This item is fixed in Baldurdash's bugfixes....should you wish to fix it.
"Mark Blunden" <mar...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:9gaavv$7r9nr$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de...
Daniel Rose
see what comparisons can be made.
Ta in advance
Westley Weimer <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9g97ak$1ie8$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Westley Weimer
> Question: Can a similar table of stats be generated for IWD, I'm curious
> to see what comparisons can be made.
If you feel like donating a copy of IWD I would be happy to draw up the
table. :-) Some other kind soul may be willing to help you out ... but it's
sort of boring. Bring a book. Any takers?
- Wes
Grim Reaper
Keep (or others) or does the game consider it a ranged weapon and won't
allow this dual wield.
"MadLOL" <jame...@inet.net.nz> wrote in message
news:99252783...@kyle.inet.net.nz...
Gandelon
> Results
> ~~~~~~~
> Normal OilSpd 22Str Oil+22Str [ Shots ]
> Gesen Short Bow 0.87127 0.88618 0
> Tuigan Short Bow 1.00000 1.24932 60
> Sling of Seeking 1.04878 1.27236 1.22493 1.31707 40
> Strong Arm Long Bow 1.06911 1.26965 54
> Thrown Rifthome Axe 1.11789 1.12195 1.16531
> Light X-Bow of Speed 1.12060 1.17615 54
> Giant Hair Heavy X-Bow 1.12602 1.45664 40
> **
> Rifthome Axe 1.34146
> Celestial Fury & DZB 1.68835 1.88347
> Crom Faeyr 1.73442
> Crom Faeyr & +2Hammer 1.97290
Thanks for posting this. Quite a while ago, I did a similar analysis on
melee weapons, although I did a spreadsheet based on theoretical numbers
(average damage for AC 5 to -10, plugged in variable fighter levels.) I
even did an analysis of how much "extra" damage the vorpal sword did vs.
various opponents. I can re-post if you're curious.
I'd be very, very curious to see how the returning throwing daggers figure
in here, since they add an extra attack like the bows, but presumably get
bonuses like the axe.
Westley Weimer
> Can "the returning axe" work in conjunction with the +3 Axe from Nalia's
> Keep (or others) or does the game consider it a ranged weapon and won't
> allow this dual wield.
You can not dual-wield with the thrown axe (although you can change it to
"non-thrown" mode).
- Wes
Westley Weimer
> melee weapons, although I did a spreadsheet based on theoretical numbers
I remember. Since the game doesn't quite follow the rules so many times I
have given up on "theory". :-)
> I'd be very, very curious to see how the returning throwing daggers figure
> in here, since they add an extra attack like the bows, but presumably get
> bonuses like the axe.
The Firerooth dagger scores 1.00678, just a hair better than the Tuigan
Bow with Acid Arrows.
- Wes
The nth Drunken Immortal
> Thanks for posting this. Quite a while ago, I did a similar analysis on
> melee weapons, although I did a spreadsheet based on theoretical numbers
> (average damage for AC 5 to -10, plugged in variable fighter levels.) I
> even did an analysis of how much "extra" damage the vorpal sword did vs.
> various opponents. I can re-post if you're curious.
>
Please do.
Daniel Rose
patience?
Westley Weimer <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9garm3$28h0$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Gandelon
> I remember. Since the game doesn't quite follow the rules so many times I
> have given up on "theory". :-)
> > I'd be very, very curious to see how the returning throwing daggers
figure
> > in here, since they add an extra attack like the bows, but presumably
get
> > bonuses like the axe.
> The Firerooth dagger scores 1.00678, just a hair better than the Tuigan
> Bow with Acid Arrows.
Heh. If that's all the dagger does, I can see your point on "theory."
Maybe the game doesn't allow bonuses for daggers, but does for axes?
Gandelon
Heh. Nice handle. Hong Kong movie fan, perhaps?
> > I can re-post if you're curious.
> Please do.
Actually, I seem to have lost my original post (damn computer housecleaning)
but here's the numbers for a thirteenth level fighter (my last focus was for
a fighter/ mage.)
This assumes the character will be wearing boots of speed and with ** in the
weapon in question. 19 strength, except when Crom Faeyr is used. I think
this assumes gauntlets of weapon expertise also.
Weapons like Gnasher and Jhor the bleeder wind up looking a bit better than
they actually are here, since I added in ALL the extra damage for each hit.
Apparently the game doesn't stick to the theoretical all that well in some
cases, so YMMV.
I'd be happy to mail anyone the excel spreadsheet I did this on: it's based
on lookup tables, so should be pretty easy to modify things like fighter
level. The tradeoff is that it can only calculate one weapon or set of
weapons at a time.
Here goes:
Dual Wield:
RH Sw Roses, LH Belm: 80.9
RH Equalizer(CE), LH Belm: 88.3
RH Equalizer(CE), LH Crom Feyr 101.8
RH Roses, LH Crom Feyr 95.5
RH Equalizer(N) LH Crom Feyr 87.6
RH Equalizer(N) LH Belm 65.4
RH Flame vs undead LH Belm 79.1
RH Sw Roses, LH celestial fury 66.4
RH Roses, LH jhor (no prof) 73.1
RH Jhor, LH belm (prof 2/1) 95
RH Roses, LH CF, hasted 119.4
1-Handed Normal/ Improved Haste
Sw Roses 54.6/ 92.8
Equalizer (CE) 63.5/ 107.8
Lsword +4 58.7/ 99.3
Flame Dagger 78.3/ 100.9
boomerang dag 67.5/ 86.6
flail of ages 61.2/ 105.8
Jhor 77.9/ 137.8
Blade of Searing 58.8/ 100.3
crom faeyr 81.7/ 136.5
2-Handed Normal Improved Haste
Staff ot magi 45/ 75
Liracor 60.5/ 100.9
Warblade 67.7/ 112.9
Silver Sword 68.5/ 114.2
Silver + Malison 96.6/ 161
impaler 79.3/ 132.2
withering 68.2/ 113.7
Dragon's Breath 76.8/ 127.9
Sword&Shield Normal Improved Haste
Fire Tooth 74.5/ 93.2
boomerang Dag 63.9/ 79.9
crom faeyr 77.8/ 129.6
belm 63.9/ 79.8
blackblood 55.7/ 92.8
Flail of Ages 58.4/ 97.3
celestial fury 57.3/ 95.5
(Hasted) here means improved haste, 5 attacks/round max.
Walk of Fame:
2H: Impaler(Hasted) 140.3
1H: Crom Faeyr (Hasted) 136.5
2H: Dragon's Breath (Hasted) 132.9
SS: Crom Faeyr (Hasted) 130
DW: Roses, CF (Hasted) 126.5
2H: Silver Sword (Hasted) 117.9
1H: Fire Tooth (Hasted) 100.9
1H: Searing (Hasted) 100.3
DW: Roses, CF 94.6
2H: Impaler 84.2
1H: Crom Faeyr 81.9
1H: Fire Tooth 80.7
2H: Dragon's Breath 79.7
SS: Crom Faeyr 78
DW: Roses, Belm 74.8
2H: Silver Sword 70.7
Silver Sword Extra Damage:
Enemy Bonus Dam/Greater Malison
Balor 3.3/ 16.57
Nabassu 0.8/ 7.49
Irenicus 6.3/ 16.57
Black Drag 8.3/ 30.97
Red Dragon 5.9/ 26.77
Shadow Dragon 2.4/ 20.47
Ulitharid 0.0/ 2.097
Mind Flayer 0.0/ 0.06
Vampire 1.5/ 8.39
Over Handmaiden 1.2/ 13.4
Drow Lead 0.0/ 6.25
Umber Hulk 5.9/ 13.55
Fire Elemental 3.7/ 14.03
The silver sword damage was based on how many hit points an opponent would
be expected to have when they finally failed a save, divided by the number
of hits they should have taken up to that point. Mind flayers and Drow
leaders get a 0 for extra damage because the normal damage should kill them
before they fail a save. I added a column for greater malison. Seemed like
the thing to do.
Westley Weimer
> Westley Weimer <wei...@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote
>> The Firerooth dagger scores 1.00678, just a hair better than the Tuigan
>> Bow with Acid Arrows.
> Heh. If that's all the dagger does, I can see your point on "theory."
> Maybe the game doesn't allow bonuses for daggers, but does for axes?
I didn't see anything obvious about the bonuses not being ... ARGH! I know
what the problem was. I had the Target wearing the Red Dragon Scale Mail
(which was safe in my original experiment). Maybe I'll try again tonight
without fire resistance :-).
- Wes
Westley Weimer
> So what sort of things will I need to do to run the experiment, other
> than patience?
You need a character editor or console ability for your game (Dalekeeper?).
Start a multiplayer game and make 3 characters. I made a kensai, an archer
and a fighter. Give the K and A 19 STR/DEX (or whatever is normal for a
buff PC in your game). Use the console/editor to give them enough XP to get
to 13th level (or whatever is appropriate for the latter half of your game,
buff PC). Also give the A and K 5 *'s in all weapon profs you'll test, and
2/3 in each "style'. Give the target >1000 HPs. Give everyone all of the
interesting weapons you care about. Also give them commonly available ammo.
I picked acid arrows over flame/etc because they have no save. I skipped
the sunstone bullets because there are only 30 in the game or whatnot. I
went for Bolts of Lightning because they do the most damage, etc. Cheat to
get yourself packs of 400 ammo or so: you won't have to reload the ammo
during the tests. Also bring in about 10 speed potions / strength potions,
if you wish. Then level up in game. Now pick some place with no other
creatures or NPCs lying around. Use some terrain features to line up the
target and the A/K so that they are the same distance apart for each trial
(I used about half a screen, the distance between the two 'cage blocks' in
the first screen in BGII: I have no idea if this matters, but definitely
don't stand the archer next to the target!). Now you're ready for the
trials.
For trial X: Get the attacker into position, ready the weapon. Get the
target into position fully healed. Pause game. Note target HP. Have
attacker "force attack" target. Unpause and start your stopwatch at the
same time. Wait 60 seconds (or whatever). When the time is up, pause the
game and mark down the remaining target HP, then subtract to calculate the
damage done. If you're curious, also mark down the number of arrows used.
Stop attacking and heal the target.
Repeat for all weapons and all potion combinations you care about. You may
want one of your trials twice or three times to get an idea of the standard
deviation. It also helps to set your frame rate up in your .ini file.
Tabulate results and post.
- Wes
Derville
> Introduction
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> A few posts ago I mentioned that I was curious about how archery
actually
> worked out in the game and that I was going to run some experiments.
>
> Analysis
> ~~~~~~~~
>
> The first thing I noticed is that crossbows, which are generally
neglected
> by players here (at least in my experience) are in fact the bomb. They
have
> the highest "natural" damage among the missile weapons. They really
shine,
> however, when hasted. The extra attack means more for the crossbow
than for
> any other weapon. An improved-hasted crossbow archer would be obscene.
The
> crossbow will also kill the enemy earlier than another weapon.
One point I'd like to mention here, is an issue I always have with
x-bows - ammo. Not only is finding arrows a whole lot easier in the
game (although BG2 is much more generous with bolts than BG1 ever was),
but x-bows miss out on some of the more useful arrows. Off the top of
my head, I can't think of any bolts of fire/acid, which limits the
x-bow's usefulness against trolls. Although polymorph bolts sound nice,
they do offer a saving throw (which enemies, IME, invariably make),
while some arrows do damage with no save allowed. While I'm not
disputing the results for the x-bow, I just wanted to point out that
finding the top ammo for this weapon is a lot harder than finding good
magical arrows (while magical bullets seem to alternate between being
common as muck, and impersonating hen's teeth).
> The second thing to notice is that the un-hasted Sling of Seeking with
a
> Super Strong character is better than any other un-hasted missile
weapon
> (including the Axe). This is what the Jaheira supporters have been
telling
> us all along. :-) But note that with a "mere" 19 Strength it is still
in
> the bottom half of the rankings.
Out of curiosity, have you tried the throwing dagger Firetooth? IIRC,
it said that it does 2d4 damage (the same as a barstool sword!), and my
Sorceror used it to great effect in ranged combats. It certainly seemed
to hit more often than a warrior class using an enchanted throwing axe
ever did.
> The "shots" column is not to be neglected and argues in favor of the
Axe
> and the crossbows. Especially in a Solo game. 60 Acid arrows can burn
a
> hole in your wallet almost as fast as they burn a hole in the enemy,
> especially in the early game.
Although as soon as the player gets Tansheron's bow, all ammo worries
pretty much disappear (needing only fire/acid arrows for troll killing).
I suppose Jan's free Bruisers help to even the score, although their
usefulness is counterbalanced by their prohibitive weight. But to be
honest, by the time a player can afford to buy a good magical bow from
Ribald, then he can probably afford decent ammo for it as well. And
finally, ISTR that magical bolts were more expensive than their magical
arrow counterparts, although not necessarily by all that much. What I
am pretty sure of is that a lot more merchants sell magical arrows than
magical bolts.
> Finally, melee weapons rock (but we knew this) and Crom really is the
best
> (again, bien entendu). Two-Weapon-Style really does pay off more than
> Single-Weapon-Style's critical-hit bonus (especially since we're not
> worried about the attacker getting hit). Also note that Crom's
advantage
> over an easy-to-acquire potion is not all that grand.
>
> Happy hacking. If you have any questions about the methodology or any
> comments about the results, feel free to chime in.
>
> - Wes
I guess the big comment I'd make about this is that it does an excellent
job of showing damage values, but it should be used with caution by any
newbies out there, as there are a lot more factors involved in choosing
a ranged weapon (some of which I've alluded to above). For example, I'd
always put the Tuigan bow high on my personal "to steal" list, because
it's available early, and can really help an initially decent archer
type character out. Similarly, Tansheron's bow is available early
doors, while some of the better x-bows take some time to acquire. +3
Slings are virtually falling out of the woodwork, which may tempt some,
although I'd suggest that after the +5 Sling of Everard, a lot of other
slings really don't cut the mustard in comparison to a decent melee
weapon.
But that's taking thins outside the scope of this analysis. As a duff
mathematician, I'm highly impressed (although somewhat confused by all
the big numbers ;-)), and as a person who hsn't got enough spare time at
the moment, I'm impressed that you decided to spend your evenings and
weekends concocting this chart for our delectation. Keep up the good
work - how about a statistical analysis of average damages from spells
cast by different types of caster next?
--
Phil
Read the alt.games.baldurs-gate Usage FAQ:
www.demonspawn.net/bg/usage.htm
GSV Three Minds in a Can
person Derville <philUNDERSCOREgledson@lineoneDOTnet.?> said
<snip>
>One point I'd like to mention here, is an issue I always have with
>x-bows - ammo. Not only is finding arrows a whole lot easier in the
>game (although BG2 is much more generous with bolts than BG1 ever was),
>but x-bows miss out on some of the more useful arrows. Off the top of
>my head, I can't think of any bolts of fire/acid, which limits the
>x-bow's usefulness against trolls. Although polymorph bolts sound nice,
>they do offer a saving throw (which enemies, IME, invariably make),
>while some arrows do damage with no save allowed. While I'm not
>disputing the results for the x-bow, I just wanted to point out that
>finding the top ammo for this weapon is a lot harder than finding good
>magical arrows (while magical bullets seem to alternate between being
>common as muck, and impersonating hen's teeth).
Hmm, I usually wind up knee deep in bolts of biting and suchlike, not to
mention all the stuff from the underdark which only stacks in 10s for
some reason. Given the low rate of fire (compared to the fastest bow) I
never found X-bow ammo to be a big problem - biggest problem was that my
X-bow users tend to be Paladins and Fighters who rarely get to use the
things, being otherwise occupied with swords, hammers, shields, etc.
(What I really need is one of those dudes from Lands of Lore 1 (?), with
4 arms).
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Derville
GSV Three Minds in a Can <G...@quik.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:11US84Y8...@quik.freeuk.net...
I guess that having used bows for so long in BG1, I end up getting a
better feel for inventory management of arrows. I always end up with
either too many bolts or not enough, whereas I can usually work out how
many arrows I may need (about 240 per character, just to be on the safe
side ;-)) a bit more easily. I agree with your comment about bolts not
always coming in nicely stacked packs of 40, which can be a pain. I
remember Jan carrying about 10 different stacks of bolts in his
inventory during the De'Arnise Keep, with no more than about 15 bolts in
any one slot. It was shortly after that I switched to Tansheron's Bow,
to avoid this.
Actually, OT slightly, but this is also an argument against the BG
inventory system. Making 40 bolts take up the same amount of space as a
suit of armour really hurts people like Jan, who starts with low
strength but could otherwise pack hundreds of bolts into his backpack,
if it weren't for both the 40 bolts/quiver limit (I'd still like to see
this increased, to at least 100) and the 16 inventory slots limit. Pack
rats like myself often end up with Kensais stashing arrows in their
quiver slots, simply because nobody else in the group has room to store
them.
> (What I really need is one of those dudes from Lands of Lore 1 (?),
with
> 4 arms).
>
> --
> GSV Three Minds in a Can
BG3: Ray Harryhausen's Revenge ;-).