Aerie is annoying little whiner! (No offence fans)
Lotta Roti
I just have to get this off my chest.
I thought I hated Nalia most of the NPCs. But now I have tried to endure
Aerie for an entire romance with an idiot paladin guy but boy is my patience
wearing thin! Nalia seems great in comparison.
I hate her stupid expression on her stupid face and her stupid annoying
little girl voice saying stupid annoying things. And all that "sweet"
"innocent" "goodness" is just an act. Actually she's a vicious manipulative
passive-aggressive clingy little thing. I wish Korgan actually would spank
her...
I MIGHT have felt some sympathy because of her wings, but maybe it was the
67th time or so when she whined about them which kind of killed it.
Ah. Now I feel better.
PetHmll
You failed,
Nevermind
Lotta Roti
"PetHmll" <pet...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010104193642...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> You tried to pull....
>
> You failed,
>
> Nevermind
>
Sorry, I really don't understand what you mean. I just wanted to complain
pointlessly because she annoys me. Like I had to tell how good it felt to
kill Nalias aunt.
PetHmll
SPOILER
Just got the romance thread with her and I'll defend her till the day I die
French Canuck
My character is female, so I don't have to bother with aerie's romance.
However, I got Anomen in my team, and the guy pisses me off. Always off
on coming up with ridiculous tales of bravery and yada yada yada...
Can't wait to dump his sorry ass.
--
"Up above aliens hover making home movies for the folks back home,
of all these weird creatures who lock up their spirits,
drill holes in themselves, and live for their secrets."
Radiohead
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Htn963
>"innocent" "goodness" is just an act. Actually she's a vicious manipulative
>passive-aggressive clingy little thing.
Agreed. Some of the things she has to say about Khalid during her
catfights with Jaheira's pretty out-of-line, even by Viconia's standard.
>I MIGHT have felt some sympathy because of her wings, but maybe it was the
>67th time or so when she whined about them which kind of killed it.
Notice that it stops as soons as you choose someone else to be attracted
to. Jaheira and Viconia were at least correct in noting this was a play for
attention.
I once forced myself to complete a romance with Aerie to test the romantic
options and it was like being to the dentist.
freshie
<lotta...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
>I hate her stupid expression on her stupid face and her stupid annoying
>little girl voice saying stupid annoying things. And all that "sweet"
>"innocent" "goodness" is just an act. Actually she's a vicious manipulative
>passive-aggressive clingy little thing. I wish Korgan actually would spank
>her...
he he. Like I hated her from the moment I met her. I think the third
time she said something to me I was said... "OK, shut your incessant
whining."
I only kept her along so she could read some mage scrolls when I
needed. As soon as I found I booted her ass.
Lotta Roti
N. M. Wallace
> However, I got Anomen in my team, and the guy pisses me off. Always off
> on coming up with ridiculous tales of bravery and yada yada yada...
> Can't wait to dump his sorry ass.
If you can put up with his whining long enough for him to get knighted,
he actually turns into a damned useful character. I think the's the
second-best cleric in the game, and since I almost always play with
good-aligned parties, he's the best, since he doesn't have Viconia's
negative rep problem. Give him the Flail of Ages, or any decent hammer
(including Crom Faeyr), and add his ability to wear any armor plus his
nifty shield, and he's a fine tank along with being a decent cleric. Oh,
and the fact that he levels up insanely fast doesn't hurt.
He;'s deeply annoying early in the game, but unlike Aerie, he does show
the capacity to deal with his issues and get over them. She reminds me
of a line from "Addams Family Values":
Snotty Camper: Oh, me, me, I'll be the victim!
Wednesday: All your life.
Nancy
Nancy M. Wallace @}----- dark...@pardalis.org
"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari
fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives,
be somewhere else."
-- Ambassador Delenn, "Severed Dreams," Babylon 5
N. M. Wallace
> I hate her stupid expression on her stupid face and her stupid annoying
> little girl voice saying stupid annoying things. And all that "sweet"
> "innocent" "goodness" is just an act. Actually she's a vicious manipulative
> passive-aggressive clingy little thing. I wish Korgan actually would spank
> her...
spoiler
She's also a tease. Here she practically throws herself at the male love
interest, telling him she wants to "feel like a woman," and when he
responds as any hetboy would. she turns around and says, "Oops--moving
too fast, gotta go."
I was annoyed at first, when I saw that Anomen was the only option for
women, but having read through the dialogue for the three female
characters, he looks *so* much better.
Lotta Roti
"N. M. Wallace" <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010105...@grace.speakeasy.org...
> He;'s deeply annoying early in the game, but unlike Aerie, he does show
> the capacity to deal with his issues and get over them.
Yes. When I first got Anomen I hated his guts, but, like a real human being,
if you get to know him better, you can sort of understand him and see why he
acts as he does. He is still too needy and stupid for me to fully LIKE him,
but I can tolerate and understand him. Aerie stays that deeply distasteful
shifty little bitch to the end.
... as an afterthought: I figured out an aspect of why she annoys me so. I
always get a fit about some psychological theories of sex differences along
the traditional lines (like "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus", you
know). I feel that they have nothing whatsoever to do with me, or my
relationships, or my difficulties to communicate, or with anyone I find even
remotely interesting (either as a lover or as a friend, male or female). And
the way those theories describe women is just like a portrait of Aerie.
Disguising their power in insinuation, whining, pretenting to be weaker than
they are, manipulation...
PetHmll
should be able to find it on the web somewhere, that is unless you've already
read it. She addresses some of the problems you talk about, but in regards to
film rather than computer games.
Pete
Lotta Roti
Thanks for an excellent pointer! I have read some of her essays before, but
in web ther is plenty of more.
Wuzat
N. M. Wallace wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Lotta Roti wrote:
>
>> I hate her stupid expression on her stupid face and her stupid
annoying
>> little girl voice saying stupid annoying things. And all that "sweet"
>> "innocent" "goodness" is just an act. Actually she's a vicious
manipulative
>> passive-aggressive clingy little thing. I wish Korgan actually would
spank
>> her...
>
>spoiler
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>She's also a tease. Here she practically throws herself at the male
love
>interest, telling him she wants to "feel like a woman," and when he
>responds as any hetboy would. she turns around and says, "Oops--moving
>too fast, gotta go."
>
>I was annoyed at first, when I saw that Anomen was the only option for
>women, but having read through the dialogue for the three female
>characters, he looks *so* much better.
Hmm? Is there a site online where you can read through the romance
dialogues? Would save me some time dealing with Shadowkeeper ;)
Wuzat
Geoffrey Brent
> She's also a tease. Here she practically throws herself at the male love
> interest, telling him she wants to "feel like a woman," and when he
> responds as any hetboy would.
Oh, puh-leaze. Some of us have _standards_, you know :-)
Geoffrey Brent
N. M. Wallace
On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Wuzat wrote:
> Hmm? Is there a site online where you can read through the romance
> dialogues? Would save me some time dealing with Shadowkeeper ;)
You can download an application from http://infexp.sourceforge.net that
will allow you to browse the dialog files. You can't really search it,
so you have to go through them all until you find what you want, and
then follow the trees. It's pretty interesting, and it even tells you
which global variables trigger a particular dialogue. Be warned,
though: I spent 3 hours searching for a particular line the other
night. It sucks you in.
Vivriel
news:9358p7$1k8$1...@news.kolumbus.fi...
>
> the way those theories describe women is just like a portrait of Aerie.
> Disguising their power in insinuation, whining, pretenting to be weaker
than
> they are, manipulation...
The worst of it is that I actually know someone like that in rl; had to work
with her for two years in a male-dominated workplace. To top it all, our
male supervisor fell for her...
It was really satisfying to kick Aerie out of my group in the game.
PetHmll
Also, re-your-post, radical feminism is also as dead as this type of
psychoanalytic theory, although, who is to stop you taking a post-structuralist
stance and turning Aerie into the heroine of the piece, auteur structuralism
surely stops at computer games where the whole experience is interactive.... or
are we that trapped by patriarchal capitalism?
I think queer theory is where we all, as a species need to be at, to some
extent; where we break down boundaries, be they race, sex whatever, and just
get on with accepting people.
Anyway, the biggest problem with Baldur's Gate and Tolkien influenced fantasy
is the race aspect, as someone close to me said six months ago, "why can't I
have an Asian looking portrait?" (talking about BG1)
Cheers
sleepy Pete
Derrek Newell
She actually stops whining if you give her time. She hasn't said a word,
aside from occasional comments related to specific situations, since
sometime back in chapter 3. And that seems like a long time ago - I'm
currently doing mop up in the Underdark. She can use magic shields, has
high lore, has the most spellcasting capabilities of any of the NPC's, and
can
handle herself in melee with the Mace of (whichever one gives her 18
strength).
Derrek
"N. M. Wallace" <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010105...@grace.speakeasy.org...
Graeme Dice
>
> No one can put up with Aerie long enough to let her work through her issues.
> She actually stops whining if you give her time. She hasn't said a word,
> aside from occasional comments related to specific situations, since
> sometime back in chapter 3. And that seems like a long time ago - I'm
> currently doing mop up in the Underdark. She can use magic shields, has
> high lore, has the most spellcasting capabilities of any of the NPC's,
Not really, she will never cast any level 7 or eight spells.
--
To the engineer, all matter in the universe can be placed
into one of two categories: (1) things that need to be fixed,
and (2) things that will need to be fixed after you've had a
few minutes to play with them
Gert-Jan Spoel
> I've got problems with Mulvey too, but hey, at least she has something to
say.
>
fantasy
> is the race aspect, as someone close to me said six months ago, "why can't
I
> have an Asian looking portrait?" (talking about BG1)
>
couple of asians too.
Gert-Jan
--
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Derville
N. M. Wallace <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010105...@grace.speakeasy.org...
>
> > I hate her stupid expression on her stupid face and her stupid
annoying
> > little girl voice saying stupid annoying things. And all that
"sweet"
> > "innocent" "goodness" is just an act. Actually she's a vicious
manipulative
> > passive-aggressive clingy little thing. I wish Korgan actually would
spank
> > her...
>
> spoiler
>
>
>
> She's also a tease. Here she practically throws herself at the male
love
> interest, telling him she wants to "feel like a woman," and when he
> responds as any hetboy would. she turns around and says, "Oops--moving
> too fast, gotta go."
>
> I was annoyed at first, when I saw that Anomen was the only option for
> women, but having read through the dialogue for the three female
> characters, he looks *so* much better.
>
>
> Nancy
Why am I thinking "stereotype" here? For the ladies we get the chap who
tries to act like the tough guy, a real man of the world, but as soon as
he sees a bit of flesh he gets all mushy and starts picking flowers and
writing dodgy poetry. Obviously the typical male there, he knows that
women want feminine and romantic type things, so he tries to give them
to her.
As for the women, you can tell men wrote these romance scripts ;-).
We've got the confused little girlie who gets all wide eyed at the
prospect of jumping in the sack, then goes offin the huff, completely
destroying the poor guy's ego, even though all he's done is follow the
big bright signs saying "I want you!!". Viconia is the ice maiden type,
with possibly the kinky element thrown in somewhere along the line, and
will get the most attention because she's got the nicest portrait (for
"nice" read "no tattoos or scars"). And as for Jaheira, she's a Grade A
example of Rebound Girl, looking for a shoulder to cry on and a bed to
share.
Not that people in the real world are like this. We're all unique,
which is the only thing about us we all share with one another.
--
P.
(Remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Read the alt.games.baldurs-gate Usage FAQ:
www.demonspawn.net/bg/usage.htm
Marva
cast level 7 spells, for mages and clerics. Xp: 1.500.000 for a mage
to reach level 14, and 1.350.000 for a cleric, makes 2.850.000, which
is below the xp-cap. Or am I missing something?
"Your life is the longest RPG you will
ever play. And his has no QuickSave
option."
(Remove .nospam to reply by email)
\|/
Graeme Dice
>
> She can. Being a cleric/mage will get you to level 14/14 , so she can
> cast level 7 spells, for mages and clerics. Xp: 1.500.000 for a mage
> to reach level 14, and 1.350.000 for a cleric, makes 2.850.000, which
> is below the xp-cap. Or am I missing something?
She'll only get to level 13 as a mage, as the experience is split 50/50
between the two classes. 2,950,000/2 = 1,475,000 which is 25000 short
of level 14.
Graeme Dice
Lotta Roti
say.
Yeah, and nowadays Freud is so non-pop that it is actually refreshing to
read something along those lines.
I consider myself more an egalitarian than a feminist, and the modern
gender-feminism seems to me as nothing more than recycling the old gender
stereotypes, but this time with the idea that the feminine ones are better.
Blah.
> Anyway, the biggest problem with Baldur's Gate and Tolkien influenced
fantasy
> is the race aspect, as someone close to me said six months ago, "why can't
I
> have an Asian looking portrait?" (talking about BG1)
SPOILER
Actually I was kind of pissed that Yoshimo had to be the traitor. I liked
him, and was all "cool! An Asian character!".
Lotta Roti
say.
Yeah, and nowadays Freud is so non-pop that it is actually refreshing to
read something along those lines.
I consider myself more an egalitarian than a feminist, and the modern
gender-feminism seems to me as nothing more than recycling the old gender
stereotypes, but this time with the idea that the feminine ones are better.
Blah.
> Anyway, the biggest problem with Baldur's Gate and Tolkien influenced
fantasy
> is the race aspect, as someone close to me said six months ago, "why can't
I
> have an Asian looking portrait?" (talking about BG1)
SPOILER
N. M. Wallace
> No one can put up with Aerie long enough to let her work through her issues.
> She actually stops whining if you give her time. She hasn't said a word,
> aside from occasional comments related to specific situations, since
> sometime back in chapter 3. And that seems like a long time ago - I'm
> currently doing mop up in the Underdark.
All throught the Underdark, I had to listen to, "Being underground is
just nmot for the Avariel." Like, duh! The rest of us aren't exactly
thrilled with it either, but we don't have to mention it every five
minutes! And her pathetically low CON means that she's the first to
whine about how tired she is, well before anyone else is feeling the
least bit tired.
> She can use magiAc shields, has
> high lore, has the most spellcasting capabilities of any of the NPC's, and
She's a good choice as a backup mage and a backup cleric, but she never
gets all that good at either. The best I've been able to get her to is
12/12, and that's with doing most of the side quests and picking her up
immediately. In contrast, Imoen made it to a level 14 mage and Anomen
was a level 18 cleric in that same game.
can
> handle herself in melee with the Mace of (whichever one gives her 18
> strength).
The mace means that she could, conceivable, wear decent armor--except
for the fact that she can't cast mage spells in anything but elven
chain. I *never* put her into melee. Yes, she gets an 18 STR, but her
THAC0 still sucks, and her hit points are so low that a couple of good
hits from a goblin will take her down. ("I'm so cold...it's bleeding so
much!" "Well, get out of melee, you stupid bitch!")
As I said, she's not bad as a secondary mage and cleric, but I've found
other party combinations to work much better without having to deal with
her fragility. Right now I have:
PC: Dual swashbuckler/mage
PC: Archer
Keldorn
Anomen
Jaheira
Valygar
I'm going to dump Valygar for Imoen soon, and then I'll have two strong
mages, one who can melee (esp. with the Zerth Blade), two
cleric/fighters (and with the girdle of hill giant strength, Jaheira is
kicking much butt), and Keldorn, who is just inherently cool. I don't
miss Aerie a bit.
N. M. Wallace
> I've got problems with Mulvey too, but hey, at least she has something to say.
>
> Also, re-your-post, radical feminism is also as dead as this type of
> psychoanalytic theory, although, who is to stop you taking a post-structuralist
> stance and turning Aerie into the heroine of the piece, auteur structuralism
> surely stops at computer games where the whole experience is interactive.... or
> are we that trapped by patriarchal capitalism?
ROTFLMAO! That was wonderful!
> Anyway, the biggest problem with Baldur's Gate and Tolkien influenced fantasy
> is the race aspect, as someone close to me said six months ago, "why can't I
> have an Asian looking portrait?" (talking about BG1)
You can. I'm currently playing with a PC portrait of an Asian woman, not
anime, and not cheesecake. I understand the sentiment, though: I've had
to do some real searching to find portraits of women who look like me
(i.e., dark skin, dark hair, and *not* drow). Even worse is trying to
find any female portraits that are of dressed women. I'm sorry, but I'm
not going to send a character into battle in a damned chain mail bikini,
or even a bronze bra (tm Esther Friesner and the Chicks in Chainmail
series).
Marcus S. Turner
> ... I'm sorry, but I'm
> not going to send a character into battle in a damned chain mail bikini,
> or even a bronze bra (tm Esther Friesner and the Chicks in Chainmail
> series).
Cerebius The Aardvark once had a scene where a Female Barbarian, trying to
seduce him, whipped off her chain mail bikini top and said "What do you
think of these?"
"They'd probably heal up if you wore regular armor..."
Htn963
>example of Rebound Girl, looking for a shoulder to cry on and a bed to
>share.
You will not speak of fair Jaheira in this fashion, terrible hamster
justice will be wrecked upon you... go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes...no!
must... use words, not swords...
Jaheira was already a longtime fighting companion and close friend of the
pc, and considering the gauntlet you had to run if you really wanted her to
say her final farewell to Khalid and move on, she's far from being a Rebound
Girl.
Derrek Newell
it seems like quite a waste to not use any of her cleric spellcasting
abilities. She may not cast the highest level of mage spells, although she
can cast them from scrolls, but she absolutely will have the most spells of
all NPC's in any non-xpcap removed game when you include her cleric spells.
Derrek
"Graeme Dice" <grd...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3A573A81...@sk.sympatico.ca...
Marcus S. Turner
Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010106163658...@ng-cr1.news.cs.com...
Yeah but we are talking about a week or so...
Of course, Robert Heinlein once said there was only one good way to console
a widow. But think of the consequences if you get caught.
Marva
xp-cap. I went about 30.000 xp above it in Bg1, so that 25.000 points
should be easily reached. (Maybe cheating, maybe unbalancing, but I
do not like LIMITS you know. When a character becomes more powerful,
I will decide --as it should be-- if a game becomes unbalanced or
less fun.)
Geoffrey Brent
>
> She can. Being a cleric/mage will get you to level 14/14 , so she can
> cast level 7 spells, for mages and clerics. Xp: 1.500.000 for a mage
> to reach level 14, and 1.350.000 for a cleric, makes 2.850.000, which
> is below the xp-cap. Or am I missing something?
The fact that XP are split evenly between the two classes,
so she'll hit the cap with 1475 000 xp in mage class.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> > No one can put up with Aerie long enough to let her work through her issues.
> > She actually stops whining if you give her time. She hasn't said a word,
> > aside from occasional comments related to specific situations, since
> > sometime back in chapter 3. And that seems like a long time ago - I'm
> > currently doing mop up in the Underdark.
>
> All throught the Underdark, I had to listen to, "Being underground is
> just nmot for the Avariel." Like, duh! The rest of us aren't exactly
> thrilled with it either, but we don't have to mention it every five
> minutes! And her pathetically low CON means that she's the first to
> whine about how tired she is, well before anyone else is feeling the
> least bit tired.
It's awfully tempting to wander up to the Drow slaver
and try to sell him Aerie. Except that he'd want his
money back.
Geoffrey Brent
Htn963
>
Unless your pc managed to slip something into her drink, by "gauntlet",
I am referring to the entire courtship, pesky Harpers and all, not to mention
the occasional but often fatal Script Repeating Bug which has bedeviled many a
heroes elsewhere in this newsgroup.
>Of course, Robert Heinlein once said there was only one good way to console
>a widow. But think of the consequences if you get caught.
>
Bah! Heinlein's a right- wing patrician masquerading as sex guru to
deflect attention from his shallow views of women. Khalid did bless the union
(through a dream), and there were no bad consequences.
Geoffrey Brent
> You will not speak of fair Jaheira in this fashion, terrible hamster
> justice will be wrecked upon you... go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes...no!
> must... use words, not swords...
>
> Jaheira was already a longtime fighting companion and close friend of the
> pc,
Not of MY pc she wasn't. She's considerably nicer in BGII,
but in BGI I found her rather annoyingly shrewish. Fighting
companion yes, but 'acquaintance' was about the limit of it.
Remembering how she hectored Khalid in BGI, I wasn't exactly
eager to leap into her arms, and IMHO a couple of months is
unlikely to be long enough to recover from having one's husband
murdered. People heal, but not _that_ fast.
Geoffrey Brent
FlareStorm
> You can. I'm currently playing with a PC portrait of an Asian woman, not
> anime, and not cheesecake. I understand the sentiment, though: I've had
> to do some real searching to find portraits of women who look like me
> (i.e., dark skin, dark hair, and *not* drow).
On that note, what's with all the dark skinned females in fantasy/sci-fi
having rainbow colored hair? Take Storm from the X-Men or Viconia. I'd
laugh out loud if I saw someone like that in real life.
And Aerie...when she whines, just take your weapon out of your hand and
attack her. There's a nice little slapping sound.
Geoffrey Brent
> Bah! Heinlein's a right- wing patrician masquerading as sex guru to
> deflect attention from his shallow views of women.
You think? I certainly find a lot of Heinlein's
political ideas to be hopelessly naive, but I
wouldn't have accused him of having 'shallow views
of women'. He manages to write a reasonable number
of women who manage at the same to be intelligent
_and_ have actual personalities, which is a damn
sight better than many of his fellow authors. Plus,
"rub her feet" is just plain good advice :-)
> Khalid did bless the union
> (through a dream), and there were no bad consequences.
IRL, one dream does not complete a healing process.
Certainly a step in the right direction, but only a
step. I'd have very serious reservations about getting
involved with _anybody_ so recently bereaved, no matter
how well they were coping with it.
Geoffrey Brent
Htn963
>political ideas to be hopelessly naive, but I
>wouldn't have accused him of having 'shallow views
>of women'. He manages to write a reasonable number
>of women who manage at the same to be intelligent
>_and_ have actual personalities, which is a damn
>sight better than many of his fellow authors.
Not to derail this thread too far into SF territory, but you may be
referring to very, very late Heinlein. Imo, his only decent female creation is
Friday. The rest, from Strangers in a Strange Land, The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress, etc., were mere props and foils for annoyingly self-indulgent (and I
agree with you here, hopelessly naive) philosophizing and posturing.
>Plus,
>"rub her feet" is just plain good advice :-)
Well, at least that's practical -- have to try that some time along with...
er, nevermind. But I still wouldn't recommend anyone taking any romantic
advice more cerebral than that from Heinlein.
>IRL, one dream does not complete a healing process.
>Certainly a step in the right direction, but only a
>step. I'd have very serious reservations about getting
>involved with _anybody_ so recently bereaved, no matter
>how well they were coping with it.
Jaheira, despite her pains, is still the most stable, levelheaded, and
conscientous female member of your party -- would you have instead Aerie or
Viconia as a friend or confidant? -- and will stand by your pc against her
scheming Harper friends even if she wasn't your romantic interest, so her
psychological soundness and/or motive is not open to any serious question. I
truly think you are biased by your negative experience with her in BG1 as a
shrew and do not give her enough credit here.
Marcus S. Turner
> >You think? I certainly find a lot of Heinlein's
> >political ideas to be hopelessly naive, but I
> >wouldn't have accused him of having 'shallow views
> >of women'. He manages to write a reasonable number
> >of women who manage at the same to be intelligent
> >_and_ have actual personalities, which is a damn
> >sight better than many of his fellow authors.
>
> Not to derail this thread too far into SF territory, but you may be
> referring to very, very late Heinlein. Imo, his only decent female
creation is
> Friday. The rest, from Strangers in a Strange Land, The Moon is a Harsh
> Mistress, etc., were mere props and foils for annoyingly self-indulgent
(and I
> agree with you here, hopelessly naive) philosophizing and posturing.
>
> >Plus,
> >"rub her feet" is just plain good advice :-)
>
> Well, at least that's practical -- have to try that some time along
with...
> er, nevermind. But I still wouldn't recommend anyone taking any romantic
> advice more cerebral than that from Heinlein.
Okay...
It was a smart-ass comment, not a statement of fact regarding the
psychological characteristics between Men and Women. Don't read too much
into it.
Geoffrey Brent
> >IRL, one dream does not complete a healing process.
> >Certainly a step in the right direction, but only a
> >step. I'd have very serious reservations about getting
> >involved with _anybody_ so recently bereaved, no matter
> >how well they were coping with it.
>
> Jaheira, despite her pains, is still the most stable, levelheaded, and
> conscientous female member of your party -- would you have instead Aerie or
> Viconia as a friend or confidant? --
You're offering me the same lousy choice the BGII designers
offered me :-) If those were the three I had to choose from,
I'd probably favour celibacy (or *possibly* trying to help
Viconia work through her issues, depending on just how well I
was able to relate to her.) Jaheira is better than Aerie, true,
but that's not saying much.
But if you were to give me a wider choice... I'd _much_ rather
spend quality time with Mazzy than Jaheira. Failing that, Nalia -
'young and naive' isn't exactly my sort of thing, but I think
she's got the potential to be a reasonably sensible and likeable
young lady once her eyes have opened a bit more. (Aerie, alas,
would seem to be incurably wet.)
And as for 'stable': I stuck by Jaheira through thick and thin,
too. Irenicus kidnapped Imoen, and killed Khalid - this was as
much her quest as mine, really. When she had trouble with the
Harpers I came back for her, fought by her side, and made sure
she had a chance to work out how she felt about that.
Then I asked her to take a break for a little while because I
needed some space in the party, and she gave me this "you
bastard, I stood by you and now you cast me out, friendless and
alone, we shall not meet again" rubbish. What the hell? I was
only going to be gone a few days, dammit, and she tries to tell
me I'm some sort of Judas Iscariot for wanting a little time
with other people (which, since I was playing a female PC, shouldn't
have cut into her romantic aspirations any.) This seems to be rather
more flying off the handle than would be appropriate.
> and will stand by your pc against her
> scheming Harper friends even if she wasn't your romantic interest, so her
> psychological soundness and/or motive is not open to any serious question. I
> truly think you are biased by your negative experience with her in BG1 as a
> shrew and do not give her enough credit here.
From a RPing point of view: yes, I am biased by having spent
several months with her and seeing how she treated her husband.
The developers may have made a conscious decision to make her
nicer (though as for psychological soundness, see above rant),
but from my character's POV someone who treats their spouse like
crap is not to be trusted. Remembering how much you love the guy
once he's _dead_ is all very well, but remembering it occasionally
while he's still alive is what really counts. _Perhaps_ being
imprisoned and having her husband murdered has somehow miraculously
made her into a more compassionate person, but I'm far from
convinced - it doesn't often work that way.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
PetHmll
Yeah the race thing in RPGs gets to me a bit, especially the Tolkienesque ideas
of the 'dark hordes' being evil and such like, Drow having dark skin also seems
to be a bit problematic as it tends to suggest that dark skin = evil whilst all
the 'good' elves fit some kind of Nazi ideal of the super(wo)man; have they got
a eugenics lab or something set up in Lotlorien?
As for the games themselves, there does not seem to be one asian female
character portrait, my girlfriend love CPRG's and was really miffed that there
were not any asian women portraits in BG 1; I do think part of the fun of the
game is identifying with your alter ego in some way. Also, I'm only at the
beginning of BG 2 and already the asian characters from Calisham (sp?) are
painted in a negative light. (The ones outside Trademeet). I don't know if I'm
being over-sensitive, but subtle negative racism seems more worrying in some
ways than explicit racism, as it could maybe infect people's brains with
dangerous ideas*.
Cheers,
Sleepy Pete
PS: As for the hair dying question, I am not sure really.
*I'm currently wtiting my PhD on Meme theory, sexuality computer games and
films; if anyone wants to email me to chat about it please do.
Lotta Roti
> SPOILER SPACE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yeah the race thing in RPGs gets to me a bit, especially the Tolkienesque
ideas
> of the 'dark hordes' being evil and such like, Drow having dark skin also
seems
> to be a bit problematic as it tends to suggest that dark skin = evil
whilst all
> the 'good' elves fit some kind of Nazi ideal of the super(wo)man; have
they got
> a eugenics lab or something set up in Lotlorien?
I do agree about the subtle racism. I looked a bit more into the world of
Forgotten Realms, and for example the evil Thayvians (Edwin my favourite
being one of them) are portrayed more or less according Arab tradition. And
the good elves are blond, slender, and blue-eyed, the good, sturdy dwarves
are less graceful but good workers (reminds me of the way Nazis saw my
people, Finns: useful as a lower class in menial jobs, should not be sent to
concentration camps but by no means as good as real Aryans). But if it's any
consolation, at least in the BG games the "evil" characters have more
interesting and multi-dimensional personalities. I seem to play an
evil-slanted party most of the time, but not out of any particular desire to
do so, but because the characters I care about most happen to be the evil
ones. (Though I have a soft spot for Anomen).
Lotta Roti
"Leo Fellmann" <l.fel...@free.fr> wrote in message
news:hy366.1753$HP5.6...@nnrp2.proxad.net...
> Yeah... like hell. So the guys over at Bioware should have an asian
> portrait, a black portrait, a south-american portrait, a arab one..
> sometimes PC goes too far.
I didn't interpret this to be about the portraits anymore. (And anyway, why
shouldn't they? It would be nice.)
Leo Fellmann
portrait, a black portrait, a south-american portrait, a arab one..
sometimes PC goes too far.
--
Leo
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance.
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
l.fel...@free.fr ICQ#84748583
PetHmll <pet...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010107135345...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
PetHmll
I disagree, it's not about 'PCness', it's about a fair represantation of people
in the real world, most people in the real world are not white, and fifty
percent of the babies being born in London at the moment are mixed race, thus
the representation of skin colour / race in BGII seems strangely
anachronistic, as do the fantasy worlds constructed by Tolkien, Weiss and
Hickman et al; generally asian / black characters in fantasy seem to be
represented as characatures, their 'otherness' seems to be their sole reason
for existence in relation to the narrative, eg: read anything by Robert E.
Howard, the man's quite scary, unfortunately, it is this type of racial
stereotyping that has influenced contemporary CRPG's, it is subtle racism and
is quite frightening, the portrait thing is just soemthing that irks me as
being unfair and also unrealistic, for instance why can't a half-elf have dark
skin, has anyone ever seen a picture of one?
Cheers,
Sleepy Pete
Nice to see an asian actress playing an elf in the forthcoming D&D movie.
While I'm on the topic, why can't a 1/2 orc have 18 charisma????
Leo Fellmann
>
> I disagree, it's not about 'PCness', it's about a fair represantation of
people
> in the real world,
This is not the real world. It has nothing to do with the real world.
> the portrait thing is just soemthing that irks me as
> being unfair and also unrealistic, for instance why can't a half-elf have
dark
> skin, has anyone ever seen a picture of one?
Of course a bloody half-elf can have dark skin, it's just got to be a drow
half-elf.. although i do think they have paler skin then pure drow ( and the
drow have BLACK skin, not the same skin color as negroes... it's not the
same bloody thing. )
N. M. Wallace
> Yeah... like hell. So the guys over at Bioware should have an asian
> portrait, a black portrait, a south-american portrait, a arab one..
> sometimes PC goes too far.
I'll try to use small words so you can understand:
I am a dark-skinned woman. I have given Bioware and WOTC a great deal of
my money over the past few years. I appreciate seeing representations of
people who look like me in their products as something other than the
villains. In fact, I was pleased that BG1 and 2, several of the NPC's
are represented by portaits of Asian and Black people.
Yes, I'm being snippy. I get so sick of people screaming "PC!" when
those of us who are not part of the majority dare to suggest that
maybe, just maybe, there is still room for improvement in the way people
deal with differences.
Nancy
N. M. Wallace
> Nice to see an asian actress playing an elf in the forthcoming D&D movie.
AFAIK, she's African-American. There are a couple of pictures of her
that have been turned into BG portraits. She was cute, too, and one of
the few redeeming features of that movie.
Leo Fellmann
news:93afq0$110$1...@news.kolumbus.fi...
can say that they are presnted as a master race. The dwarves are proud,
noble and all that.. so?? Nowhere does it say that they are inferior, or
even imply it... Black has long been associated with evil, and as I already
pointed out, drow skin color is not the same as negro skin color. Thay? so??
So Evil people can't be Arabs, or Asian-style or so on? Sometimes this
racist paranoia is just stupid. It's a game for chrissake, not real life...
( and anomen is meant to be "Good", yet he is a total prat.. )
Htn963
>offered me :-) If those were the three I had to choose from,
>I'd probably favour celibacy (or *possibly* trying to help
>Viconia work through her issues, depending on just how well I
>was able to relate to her.)
Ah, I do so enjoy discussing digital women with you, so I'll follow up:
Believe me, giving up Viconia for Jaheira was one of the hardest
decisions I've had to make in my gaming experience. My pc will always have
great affection (not lust) for her, but it is a relationship borne out of fear
and pain, and there will never be true trust, for as she said, trust is
(literally) death for her (her mental defenses will be broken down and LLoth
and her handmaidens will be able to track her down and capture her.) You did
expressed prior ethical reservations about initiating a romance with a
psychologically damaged person, didn't you, or is it that you are finding her
physical charms irresistable:)
>But if you were to give me a wider choice... I'd _much_ rather
>spend quality time with Mazzy than Jaheira.
If you were to see how, like most Lawful Good characters full of
themselves, Mazzy treats outsiders like Viconia, I wonder if you'll still feel
the same. But I agree, Mazzy should also have been a romance option (geez,
we're greedy.) I was quite attached to my BG1 character, a halfling female
thief modeled after Becky Sharp of Thackeray's Vanity Fair.
> Nalia -
>'young and naive' isn't exactly my sort of thing, but I think
>she's got the potential to be a reasonably sensible and likeable
>young lady once her eyes have opened a bit more.
I like Nalia, but only for her contribution to the party -- she actually
makes quite a decent fighting-mage, often scoring critical hits with the bow,
and can melee well with stoneskin . Otherwise, she's just as conniving and
self-serving as Aerie... but, as you say, there's room for growth.
>And as for 'stable': I stuck by Jaheira through thick and thin,
>too. Irenicus kidnapped Imoen, and killed Khalid - this was as
>much her quest as mine, really.
>When she had trouble with the
>Harpers I came back for her, fought by her side, and made sure
>she had a chance to work out how she felt about that.
>
>Then I asked her to take a break for a little while because I
>needed some space in the party, and she gave me this "you
>bastard, I stood by you and now you cast me out, friendless and
>alone, we shall not meet again" rubbish. What the hell? I was
>only going to be gone a few days, dammit, and she tries to tell
>me I'm some sort of Judas Iscariot for wanting a little time
>with other people (which, since I was playing a female PC, shouldn't
>have cut into her romantic aspirations any.) This seems to be rather
>more flying off the handle than would be appropriate.
You've just answered your own question why she reacted so: this was also
her quest and her story. And regardless of your own personal feelings about
her as a player, in the game she IS the pc's long time compatriot and close
friend, not just another interchangeable party member, and you (I certainly
wouldn't) don't treat close friends that way, no matter the circumstance.
She may be too upfront and not gracious enough to hide her hurt feelings, but
certainly not irrational.
>From a RPing point of view: yes, I am biased by having spent
>several months with her and seeing how she treated her husband.
>The developers may have made a conscious decision to make her
>nicer (though as for psychological soundness, see above rant),
>but from my character's POV someone who treats their spouse like
>crap is not to be trusted. Remembering how much you love the guy
>once he's _dead_ is all very well, but remembering it occasionally
>while he's still alive is what really counts. _Perhaps_ being
>imprisoned and having her husband murdered has somehow miraculously
>made her into a more compassionate person, but I'm far from
>convinced - it doesn't often work that way.
Jaheria tends to be bossy and abrasive to everyone, not just Khalid, and
you can't deny the great love and loyalty underneath that brassy exterior for
those close to her. Khalid also probably deserved what he got for his weak
and whining behavior -- my pc certainly could handle her while loving her and
have fun doing so. Jaheira, warts and all, is one of the most believable and
fully-realized female character I've seen in a game. For what it's worth, I
didn't have Jaheira and Khalid for much time in my party in BG1 to notice much
spousal abuse (heh). Care to let me know some of the specific things she did
or said to him?
PetHmll
>Of course a bloody half-elf can have dark skin, it's (SIC) just got to be a
drow
>half-elf.. although i do think they have paler skin then pure drow ( and the
>drow have BLACK skin, not the same skin color as negroes... it's not the
>same bloody thing. )
Okay here's my ranting space:
1) Okay, firstly, "negroe" is generally considered to be an offensive term,
which decade are you living in???
2) Why could a half-elf not be mixed race, for instance, an African, Asian
(yes I know this fantasy but we all know what I am talking about) Mother / Wood
Elf Father??? Are you seriously suggesting in your post, that a blonde haired
elf could not mate with a human that had a different skin colour! If this
mating took place, would that not create a half-elf baby with dark skin?
3) Just because it is a game, it does not mean it can get away with a lazy
representation of good / bad vs black / white, even if it is set in a fantasy
setting.
4) The word 'black' is generally used to connote people from the African
continent with dark skin. (Although the term, like white, is still problematic,
however it is generally accepted as being acceptable to use, ie: a New Zealand
aboringine could also be considered to be 'black' but would probably not be
referred to as such).
5) The word "negroe", connotes through, an educated understanding of the sign,
that a person labelled as such comes from Nigeria (not Africa). (Unless of
course you are unaware of basic geography see below)
6) Africa is a continent, not a country, FYA.
7) We have to step on racism, even subtle racism
Pete
freshie
>
>I disagree, it's not about 'PCness', it's about a fair represantation of people
>in the real world, most people in the real world are not white, and fifty
>percent of the babies being born in London at the moment are mixed race, thus
>the representation of skin colour / race in BGII seems strangely
>anachronistic, as do the fantasy worlds constructed by Tolkien, Weiss and
>Hickman et al;
That is rich.... applying modern cultural standards to those of a
british author who created a fantasy world 3/4 of a century ago.
Even more funny that you are complaining about the racial generalities
of fictional races. Is an elf, african, indian, asian, french, danish
or swedish? No! It's a fucking elf!
It's like complaining that dragons don't accurately incorporate all
the plethora of reptilian species out in the real world.
Portraits of Jaheira, Mazzy, Cernd, Minsc, and Yoshimo look like they
are using a lot of different racial characteristics in their portraits
to me.
Lotta Roti
> >
> > The elves are portayed as haughty, xenophobic and traditionalistic.
No-one
> can say that they are presnted as a master race.
Yeah, but also a paragon of a" good" society. (All this aside that the whole
idea of alignment is stupid IMHO).
> So Evil people can't be Arabs, or Asian-style or so on? Sometimes this
> racist paranoia is just stupid. It's a game for chrissake, not real
life...
Of course they can be. It is just that most of the time you see a person
like that in fiction, he/she is evil/stupid/inferior. And yes, there are
exceptions, and that is a good thing. As for it being just a paranoia: have
you viewed any studies of peoples' perception of minorities, for example
blacks? Even people who don't see themselves as racist at all associate
black people with all kinds of unpleasant things. And these perceptions
affects the way we act in real life, even though they often originate very
much from media, fiction and other. (For example, bar the biggest cities, in
my country there are hardly any black people, and what we think of them is
almost solely a product of American movies and TV series with some docudrama
from suffering Africans thrown in. So in my opinion even fiction is not
that trivial.)
And no, I don't think there is an evil conspiracy portraying this subtle
racism. I believe most of the people have no such intentions at all. It is
so common and accepted that it is very hard to notive it even in oneself.
The bottom of it is, I think that, a white western (perhaps male, though I'm
not so sure about that one any more) is the Standard, the default basic
human being against whom everyone else is to be measured and to whom
everything should be designed, and when other people want to acknowledged or
heard they are accused of being PC or paranoid or overzealous or
oversensitive and, in general, a pain in the butt best to be ignored.
> ( and anomen is meant to be "Good", yet he is a total prat.. )
Actually he's lawful neutral at first. But his character has depth as he
struggles with the good and evil (as he perceives it) within.
N. M. Wallace
> On 07 Jan 2001 20:08:01 GMT, pet...@aol.com (PetHmll) wrote:
>
> >
> >I disagree, it's not about 'PCness', it's about a fair represantation of people
> >in the real world, most people in the real world are not white, and fifty
> >percent of the babies being born in London at the moment are mixed race, thus
> >the representation of skin colour / race in BGII seems strangely
> >anachronistic, as do the fantasy worlds constructed by Tolkien, Weiss and
> >Hickman et al;
>
> That is rich.... applying modern cultural standards to those of a
> british author who created a fantasy world 3/4 of a century ago.
My copy of LOTR is in a box, so I can't check the copyright dates, but I
believe it's more like 50 years ago.Either eay, it's well within
accepted definitions of "modern."
I've read a couple biographies of Tolkein, and they agree that, in fact,
the man *was* a racist. He was a South African born Englishman in the
early part of last century--it's really not terribly surprising. (Watch
"Gandhi" if you want a graphic demonstration of how anyone who was not
white was treated in that place and time.)* The savage, evil humans that
ally with Sauron during the War are a none-too-thinly veiled depiction
of the Zulu that the British Enpire had fought not all that long ago.
As it happens, LOTR is still my favorite book (I count it as
one) ever. At the same time, I recognize the author's prejudices. Since
his world has become, in many ways, the template for all fantasy authors
who have followed him, I think it's worth being aware of his biases and
how they are still reflected in fantasy literature today.
Nancy
Geoffrey Brent
>
> Yeah... like hell. So the guys over at Bioware should have an asian
> portrait, a black portrait, a south-american portrait, a arab one..
Yeah, why not? It's not like it'd hurt.
As a matter of fact, they _do_ have a black portrait, and
an asian one. Just that they're both 'bad guys'.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> Hickman et al; generally asian / black characters in fantasy seem to be
> represented as characatures,
Often it comes up because "my fantasy world needs something
that looks like Asia, so let's populate it with Asians to
make sure people get the point," I think.
Geoffrey Brent
FlareStorm
"Lotta Roti" <lotta...@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
news:933p33$cgo$1...@news.kolumbus.fi...
> Okie, you keep her :)
>
>
freshie
<dark...@pardalis.org> wrote:
>
>My copy of LOTR is in a box, so I can't check the copyright dates, but I
>believe it's more like 50 years ago.Either eay, it's well within
>accepted definitions of "modern."
>
>I've read a couple biographies of Tolkein, and they agree that, in fact,
>the man *was* a racist. He was a South African born Englishman in the
>early part of last century--it's really not terribly surprising.
Born there. Moved to England 4 years after he was born. Orphaned as
a teen. I hope that there is a tad bit more evidence of his racist
tendencies than the place of his birth.
>(Watch
>"Gandhi" if you want a graphic demonstration of how anyone who was not
>white was treated in that place and time.)* The savage, evil humans that
>ally with Sauron during the War are a none-too-thinly veiled depiction
>of the Zulu that the British Enpire had fought not all that long ago.
Not at the long ago being the 1880's?? 12 years before he was born.
And a good 60 years before he wrote LOTR.
Geoffrey Brent
> > That is rich.... applying modern cultural standards to those of a
> > british author who created a fantasy world 3/4 of a century ago.
>
> My copy of LOTR is in a box, so I can't check the copyright dates, but I
> believe it's more like 50 years ago.
Published roughly 50 years ago (shortly after WWII), but
he'd been working on the material for a long time before
then, so it's hard to pin down an exact date.
> Either eay, it's well within
> accepted definitions of "modern."
Still well before Martin Luther King, and Australia didn't
even recognise Aboriginals as citizens until the mid-1960s.
I'll agree that there's racism in LotR, but it's at about
the same level as an awful lot of other stuff of the same
period. If JRRT is "modern", then so is racism.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> Believe me, giving up Viconia for Jaheira was one of the hardest
> decisions I've had to make in my gaming experience. My pc will always have
> great affection (not lust) for her, but it is a relationship borne out of fear
> and pain, and there will never be true trust, for as she said, trust is
> (literally) death for her (her mental defenses will be broken down and LLoth
> and her handmaidens will be able to track her down and capture her.) You did
> expressed prior ethical reservations about initiating a romance with a
> psychologically damaged person, didn't you, or is it that you are finding her
> physical charms irresistable:)
No, I just have somewhat gothic tastes, as my fanfic
might suggest :-) Physical attributes are usually fairly
low on my radar. I missed some of Viconia's back-story
(never ended up meeting her in BGI, somehow) so I'm only
speaking from what I do know about her here. Given that
my character is the (rather high-level) child of a god
with some exceptionally impressive abilities by the end
of BGII, it just _may_ be possible to do something about
Vic's little security issues.
I don't think that getting involved with a 'damaged' person
is inevitably a bad idea - just about everyone has _some_
sort of scars, and with patience and understanding they can
usually be dealt with. But IMHO it's just too soon to get
involved with Jaheira (even if I didn't have the worry that
she'd turn around and treat me like she used to treat Khalid.)
Offer a shoulder to cry on, sure, but as far as I'm concerned
she's still on the rebound - something that's not good for
either person involved.
> If you were to see how, like most Lawful Good characters full of
> themselves, Mazzy treats outsiders like Viconia, I wonder if you'll still feel
> the same.
I must have missed that; I had them both in my party at one
point, but not for long, and nothing happened between them
in that time.
> I like Nalia, but only for her contribution to the party -- she actually
> makes quite a decent fighting-mage, often scoring critical hits with the bow,
> and can melee well with stoneskin . Otherwise, she's just as conniving and
> self-serving as Aerie... but, as you say, there's room for growth.
I wouldn't call her 'conniving', just terminally naive and
unintentionally hypocritical (it's OK for _her_ to talk about
'slumming', but not for her aunt...) but I think she'll grow
out of that. Having gone to school with an awful lot of white-
bread, privileged kids (myself included), I know that it _is_
possible to grow out of that stuff.
> >me I'm some sort of Judas Iscariot for wanting a little time
> >with other people (which, since I was playing a female PC, shouldn't
> >have cut into her romantic aspirations any.) This seems to be rather
> >more flying off the handle than would be appropriate.
>
> You've just answered your own question why she reacted so: this was also
> her quest and her story. And regardless of your own personal feelings about
> her as a player, in the game she IS the pc's long time compatriot and close
> friend,
Not necessarily. The game's fairly good about letting you decide
for yourself how your PC feels about other characters (as evidenced
by dialogue choices), otherwise it wouldn't be _my_ PC. Long-time
companion, sure. Close friend, well... 'friend' yes, close no.
And it wasn't as if I was saying "rack off, I'm going to go and
deal with Khalid's killer, you can't come." All it was was "How's
about you stay in town for a couple of days - you could do with
a rest, anyway - while we go and sort out this mess? I'll be back
in a few days." Imoen doesn't go nuts when I suggest that, and
she's as involved in this business as anybody. Even my cocker spaniel
doesn't resort to that sort of guilt-inducing behaviour when I leave
him in someone else's care for a couple of days. It's not the end of
the world, it's not like I'm trying to kick her out of my life, it's
just a couple of days. I'm beginning to wonder how she copes when my
character goes to the toilet alone ;-)
> Jaheria tends to be bossy and abrasive to everyone, not just Khalid,
Exactly. :-)
> and
> you can't deny the great love and loyalty underneath that brassy exterior for
> those close to her.
Perhaps.
> Khalid also probably deserved what he got for his weak
> and whining behavior -- my pc certainly could handle her while loving her and
> have fun doing so. Jaheira, warts and all, is one of the most believable and
> fully-realized female character I've seen in a game. For what it's worth, I
> didn't have Jaheira and Khalid for much time in my party in BG1 to notice much
> spousal abuse (heh). Care to let me know some of the specific things she did
> or said to him?
Nor me (I got fed up with watching her pick on him) but, for instance,
picking on his stutter - which is about the cruellest and most
counterproductive thing she could have done to him. Sure, Khalid is
weak, but Jaheira doesn't exactly do much to build up his self-
confidence - something that I think is one of the most important things
a spouse can do.
I'll agree that Jaheira is certainly one of the most _realistic_
female characters in the game - I certainly find her very plausible,
and I've _met_ people quite like her in real life. But I wouldn't
get involved with them, either. There are plenty of strong women
who aren't shrews, and that's what _I_ prefer.
Geoffrey Brent
Htn963
>involved with Jaheira (even if I didn't have the worry that
>she'd turn around and treat me like she used to treat Khalid.)
>Offer a shoulder to cry on, sure, but as far as I'm concerned
>she's still on the rebound - something that's not good for
>either person involved.
Too soon for you, perhaps, with the rl values you bring to the game. I
respect those values, but aside from the obvious fact that events move much
faster in this game or else we never finish it, don't you think you are being
a bit condescending to Jaheira and her judgment in thinking you know what's
fit and proper for her when you don't even like her? And have you actually
overcome your dislike of her enough to complete the romance? I wouldn't
characterized it as rushed at all. It progressed very slowly (in relations to
the other romances anyway), punctuated by many moments of doubts, hesitation,
and reservations ( some akin to the reservations you were expressing, btw), and
finally in reaffirmation that it is natural and right in a, imo, very
believable scene in the wilderness. Most of the time the characters chat with
each other about their worries just like regular good friends; they don't get
to the intimate lovetalk stage until the final two or three dialogues, and the
final scene of consummation came almost as an afterthought and a seal to a
great, I'll say it again, FRIENDSHIP. If you'd never thought of her as a
close friend, then I see how you would think this romance awkward and
unfitting.
>> If you were to see how, like most Lawful Good characters full of
>> themselves, Mazzy treats outsiders like Viconia, I wonder if you'll still
>feel
>> the same.
>
>I must have missed that; I had them both in my party at one
>point, but not for long,
>and nothing happened between them
>in that time.
Mazzy said something to the effect..." our leader (you, the pc) maybe
foolish enough to allow your kind to accompany the party, but I'll see you
dead." When she started dialogue with me later saying how pleased she was at
the goody-two-shoes progress we were making, I was still so mad, I truthfully
chose the option: and why should I care what you think (you little
self-righteous snit.)
>Nor me (I got fed up with watching her pick on him) but, for instance,
>picking on his stutter - which is about the cruellest and most
>counterproductive thing she could have done to him
Yes, that is nasty and unacceptable. But, not to sound too corny, I do
believe some of us have the capacity to change for the better, because I used
to be somewhat like that as well.
>There are plenty of strong women
>who aren't shrews, and that's what _I_ prefer.
You call her a shrew and I call her feisty. We'll never convince each
other but at least we understand each other (I hope.)
The Wasteland
>Forgotten Realms, and for example the evil Thayvians (Edwin my favourite
>being one of them) are portrayed more or less according Arab tradition.
>More like Russians was my opinion. Arab like world in FR is Calimshan and
that desert in the far south where Al-Quadim campaign hail from.
>And
>the good elves are blond, slender, and blue-eyed, the good, sturdy dwarves
>are less graceful but good workers (reminds me of the way Nazis saw my
>people, Finns: useful as a lower class in menial jobs, should not be sent
to
>concentration camps but by no means as good as real Aryans).
I would like to know where you have that information from.
Political correctness will eliminate all fun from the world one day, that's
for sure. Read some of the Forgotten Realms novels. There are all kinds of
characters, evil surface elves and good drow.
It's just a game. If you wanna associate with your own persona, you can
always get a picture that looks like you. I myself can't understand that,
fantasy is about being away from this universe you yourself are in. It's
about dreaming of fantastic worlds and strange races and cultures.
F.
Geoffrey Brent
> Too soon for you, perhaps, with the rl values you bring to the game. I
> respect those values, but aside from the obvious fact that events move much
> faster in this game or else we never finish it,
Point taken :-)
> don't you think you are being
> a bit condescending to Jaheira and her judgment in thinking you know what's
> fit and proper for her when you don't even like her?
Well, if I don't like her, I'm EMINENTLY qualified to
decide that getting involved with me would be bad
judgement on her part :-)
But even with a character who _does_ like her: no, I
don't think it's condescending to say "no, I don't
think you really want to do this just yet." Sometimes
that _is_ the appropriate thing to do.
A sort-of RL parallel: way back when I was even younger
and more innocent than I am now ;-), I had the opportunity
to lose my virginity with a girl who I'd been lusting after
for ages. Somehow, over the roar of my teenage hormones, I
realised that she was much too tired to be making the decision
she'd just made, and I told her to sleep on it and let me know
if she was still interested in the morning once she'd had a
chance to think things over properly. She did, and she wasn't,
which was pretty much what I'd expected; obviously I was a bit
disappointed, but in the same circumstances today I hope I
would handle it exactly the same way. And if I had a PC who
was interested in Jaheira, that's pretty much how I'd handle
it - make clear that I _was_ interested, but that I wasn't
going to follow it up until I was sure she wouldn't regret her
decision.
> And have you actually
> overcome your dislike of her enough to complete the romance?
Since I played through with a female character, I didn't get
the option. I'm basing my comments mostly on the discussions
I've seen here from other players.
> I wouldn't
> characterized it as rushed at all. It progressed very slowly (in relations to
> the other romances anyway), punctuated by many moments of doubts, hesitation,
> and reservations ( some akin to the reservations you were expressing, btw), and
> finally in reaffirmation that it is natural and right in a, imo, very
> believable scene in the wilderness. Most of the time the characters chat with
> each other about their worries just like regular good friends; they don't get
> to the intimate lovetalk stage until the final two or three dialogues, and the
> final scene of consummation came almost as an afterthought and a seal to a
> great, I'll say it again, FRIENDSHIP. If you'd never thought of her as a
> close friend, then I see how you would think this romance awkward and
> unfitting.
That's a large part of it - to me the idea of romance with
someone who isn't a close friend is simply nonsensical - but
even with a PC who _did_ consider Jaheira a close friend, I'd
have qualms. IMHO three or four months is simply not long enough.
> >Nor me (I got fed up with watching her pick on him) but, for instance,
> >picking on his stutter - which is about the cruellest and most
> >counterproductive thing she could have done to him
>
> Yes, that is nasty and unacceptable. But, not to sound too corny, I do
> believe some of us have the capacity to change for the better, because I used
> to be somewhat like that as well.
Sure. But before getting involved with Jaheira, I'd want to
see hard evidence that she really _had_ changed - something
like "I wish I'd been nicer to Khalid" would've been a
promising sign. Sure, she's generally nicer in BGII than in
BGI, but for all I know she might go back to her old ways as
soon as she's recovered from the shocks she's just been through.
I'd want to be convinced that it was a lasting change, not just
shell-shock.
> >There are plenty of strong women
> >who aren't shrews, and that's what _I_ prefer.
>
> You call her a shrew and I call her feisty. We'll never convince each
> other but at least we understand each other (I hope.)
Pretty much :-)
Geoffrey Brent
N. M. Wallace
> > Either eay, it's well within
> > accepted definitions of "modern."
>
> Still well before Martin Luther King, and Australia didn't
> even recognise Aboriginals as citizens until the mid-1960s.
> I'll agree that there's racism in LotR, but it's at about
> the same level as an awful lot of other stuff of the same
> period. If JRRT is "modern", then so is racism.
*puts on historian hat*
Well, it is. The concept of "race" as we know it today didn't show up
until around the 18th century, when it first started being used as a
justification for the paricular kind of chattel slavery that was
practiced in the colonies. That's considered "modern" in historical
terms, since the modern era is gernally thought to have begun with the
Enlightenment.
It's absolutely true that JRRT was a product of his environment. When I
say that he was racist, I don't consider that a judgement as much as a
statment of fact: pretty much any Englishman of that time and place was
raised to believe that white people, and British white people in
particular, were superior to everyone else. That makes it
understandable, but it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean
that current fantasy authors should be allowed to justify the old "dark
skin=bad" by saying, "Well, Tolkein did it," and accusing anyone who
suggests that this isn't a good enough reason of being "politically
correct."
N. M. Wallace
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 00:27:03 GMT, "N. M. Wallace"
> <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote:
> >I've read a couple biographies of Tolkein, and they agree that, in fact,
> >the man *was* a racist. He was a South African born Englishman in the
> >early part of last century--it's really not terribly surprising.
>
> Born there. Moved to England 4 years after he was born. Orphaned as
> a teen. I hope that there is a tad bit more evidence of his racist
> tendencies than the place of his birth.
If you really care, I could source it for you. The paper I wrote was 14
years ago, so I don't have the references handy.
It's not simply the place of his birth, but the entire society. Your
average Englishman of the early part of this century was going to be
raised to believe that white people, and white English people in
particular, were superior to everyone else on the planet--just as he was
also going to be raised to believe that women's role was to be nurturing
childbearers. It takes an extraordinary person to be able to go against
the what your entire reality is teaching you, and it's not reasonable to
expect that these attitudes wouldn't be reflected in a particular
writer's work.
> >(Watch
> >"Gandhi" if you want a graphic demonstration of how anyone who was not
> >white was treated in that place and time.)* The savage, evil humans that
> >ally with Sauron during the War are a none-too-thinly veiled depiction
> >of the Zulu that the British Enpire had fought not all that long ago.
>
> Not at the long ago being the 1880's?? 12 years before he was born.
> And a good 60 years before he wrote LOTR.
In historical terms, that's five minutes ago. More to the point, the
images were the ones he grew up with. It's logical that when he was
casting around for a group of savage, uncivilized barbarians, he would
look to a people he had always been taught were savage uncivilized
barbarians.
The first RPG I ever played was Shadowrun, which has a world where
sinister Japanese megacorps run nearly everything. When I go back and
read the sourcebooks now, it's laughable, but in the '80's, when this
stuff was written, a lot of people really believed that the Japanese
were going to economically dominate the world. People write what they
know, and if what they "know" is that the Japanese are taking over, or
that dark-skinned people are inferior to light-skinned ones, or that
women are only good for producing and raising children, then that will
be reflected in what they write. Does this mean that everything they
write is bad? Not necessarily...but it does mean that, as with
everything else, literature needs to be read with a critical eye, and
not just accept someone else's ideas lock, stock and barrel because
"it's a classic."
Nancy,
Stepping off my litcrit soapbox.
PetHmll
in England, Literature and Social studies based on the California schools
syllabus and in one of the Harcourt Brace Lit books, it has a story -My Name is
Scrambled Eggs- where for a Vietnamese child to fit into American society, they
have to change their national dress and start wearing jeans and a T-shirt, (in
the story the other kids are poking fun and laughing), what's even more
worrying is that the child has to change his name to 'Tom', a good American
sounding name.
The story ends with the child fitting in.
One of my students an 11 year old was so pissed off that he and I emailed the
book's editors, they didn't even have the politeness to respond.
Very scary indeed!
My point is that as there is so much racism lurking about in modern school text
books, we shouldn't have to put up with it, and it's good that it is discussed
in a newsgroup!!!!!!!
So it *is* important to always tackle racism when it raises it's head, as it is
being taught in schools, it's on the syllabus for god's sake, which is
cyberspace is cool , you can change opinions, attitudes etc, through debate and
the exchange of ideas.
And, I agree, totally that modern fantasy authors have no excuse in
stereotyping characters due to racial characteristics.
While I'm in rant mode, why are there no homosexual or lesbian romance scripts
in BG2?
Surely ignoring around 10% of the population is grossly insensitive and it
would be nice to have a choice!
Cheers all,
Sleepy Pete
PS: and before anyone accuses me of being politicaly correct, the world would
be a better place if we all were!
N. M. Wallace
> While I'm in rant mode, why are there no homosexual or lesbian romance scripts
> in BG2?
Same reason that there were no clerics in the D&D movie--to avoid
controversy.
> Surely ignoring around 10% of the population is grossly insensitive and it
> would be nice to have a choice!
Don't go there!
Seriously, there was a several month debate about this--check the Deja
archives for the sordid details.
Derville
Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010106163658...@ng-cr1.news.cs.com...
> >as for Jaheira, she's a Grade A
> >example of Rebound Girl, looking for a shoulder to cry on and a bed
to
> >share.
>
> You will not speak of fair Jaheira in this fashion, terrible
hamster
> justice will be wrecked upon you... go for the eyes, Boo, go for the
eyes...no!
> must... use words, not swords...
And I'll tell you know that Minsc knows better than to stick up for
Jaheira. He can remember her attitude in BG1 just as well as I do, and
would be less than likely to jump to her aid ;-).
> Jaheira was already a longtime fighting companion and close
friend of the
> pc, and considering the gauntlet you had to run if you really
wanted her to
> say her final farewell to Khalid and move on, she's far from being a
Rebound
> Girl.
Jaheira was a bit of a lump in BG1, to be honest. Fighter/druids
weren't that hot at low levels, and Jaheira wasn't the best equipped
stats wise. As for close friend, first timers were hoodwinked into
taking her and Khalid on board at the start (another couple of sword
arms is handy for a level 1 mage), and I only ever took her into my
group after the first run through if I could think of a particularly
interesting way in which to kill her (ahh, I miss Thief in this
respect - so many imaginative deaths, so little time ;-)). But in my
book, anyone who can lose their hubby (and have their last image of him
being that of a man stretched out on a dissecting table) and then start
making eyes at another man a month or two after his death is on the
rebound. Splitting u from a boyfriend of six weeks is one thing, going
for a new romantic interest after your other half has become your other
_halves_ is something quite different. Not that I'd ever add anything
from BG1 into this equation when I tell her to go see a counsellor or
shut the hell up, oh no.
--
P.
(Remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply)
Read the alt.games.baldurs-gate Usage FAQ:
www.demonspawn.net/bg/usage.htm
Ping
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010108...@grace.speakeasy.org...
>
> Same reason that there were no clerics in the D&D movie--to avoid
> controversy.
>
wait. hang on. not that i care about the d&d movie after watching it.
but...what controversy could having a cleric hanging around cause?
> Seriously, there was a several month debate about this--check the Deja
> archives for the sordid details.
*foams at mouth & enjoys flashbacks*
-Ping
http://www.creatureslife.net
icq: 6283750
http://skizzers.org/ping/
email: Ping AT subdimension DOT com
[PING! The magic duck!]
N. M. Wallace
> "N. M. Wallace" <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010108...@grace.speakeasy.org...
>
> >
> > Same reason that there were no clerics in the D&D movie--to avoid
> > controversy.
> >
>
> wait. hang on. not that i care about the d&d movie after watching it.
> but...what controversy could having a cleric hanging around cause?
Who would sie be a cleric of? Using an existing religion would be bound
to piss someone off, and using the D&D pantheon in a mainstram movie
would lead to charges that the filmmakers were supporting
paganism. Remember, the Harry Potter books have been banned in several
school districts in the U.S. because they allegedly promote Satanism,
witchcraft, and the occult.
Nancy
PetHmll
To cut a long story short......
1) The horned god was a god that was worshipped in the British isles long
before Christianity ever had a foothold.
2) The only reason that Christianity has a horned image of the devil is because
early Christianity in this country was fighting against pagan belief. If you do
a bit of research into this, check Margaret Murray's work esp 'The God of the
Witches', you'll find that Christianity incorporated the image of the 'horned
god' and used it as a devil image.
3) Witchcraft paganism etc has got nothing to do with paganism, the two were
only linked by Christian priests trying to demonise an aboriginal religion (see
#5)
4) Having said that, Jesus was all about chilling out and being nice to folk so
I am all with him (check Luke's gospel).
5) Early Christian worship in England incorporated parts / rituals of paganism,
to such an extent that it is widely reported that the rituals were joined, a
Christian mass followed by a dance around the maypole. (This is pretty much
fact, sorry to offend anyone)
6) Paganism / witchcraft ( that word is so demonised) was a more matriarchal
religion. I wonder why early Christianity had a problem with it???????
Cheers
Pete
PS: I am a confirmed atheist but please don't link paganism with
Satanism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PPS: Typing on the fly with wine so forgive typos :-)
N. M. Wallace
On 8 Jan 2001, PetHmll wrote:
> to such an extent that it is widely reported that the rituals were joined, a
> Christian mass followed by a dance around the maypole. (This is pretty much
> fact, sorry to offend anyone)
Forget Early Christian worship...those pine trees that folks around here
are throwing out this week have zero to do with the birth of
Jesus. They're leftovers from Germanic midwinter celebrations, as is the
kissing under the mistletoe tradition (which originally involved much
more than kissing). Then there's Easter, which takes its name from the
spring festival of the goddess Oestara, a fertility goddess. You can
thank her for all the eggs and bunnies--which, again, have absolutely
nothing to do with Jesus and are not mentioned in any gospel.
> PS: I am a confirmed atheist but please don't link paganism with
> Satanism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*I* don't, but the fundamentalist Christians is the U.S. who object to
Wiccan chaplains in the military have already done so. It doesn't make
sense, really: since I don't recognize the entity called Satan, how
could I worship him?
Gert-Jan Spoel
> RE: THE BELOW CRAP
>
> >Of course a bloody half-elf can have dark skin, it's (SIC) just got to be
a
> drow
> >half-elf.. although i do think they have paler skin then pure drow ( and
the
> >drow have BLACK skin, not the same skin color as negroes... it's not the
> >same bloody thing. )
>
>
> Okay here's my ranting space:
>
> 1) Okay, firstly, "negroe" is generally considered to be an offensive
term,
> which decade are you living in???
>
Nigger is offensive. Negro not. Only for 'political correct' people who
keeps on claiming that we have agreed to such things. Political correctness
is for people who don't know how to behave towards something/someone outside
their box system. Reminds me about a movie I saw years ago; an elderly
(white) couple who get their newly black stepson for dinner.
> 2) Why could a half-elf not be mixed race, for instance, an African,
Asian
> (yes I know this fantasy but we all know what I am talking about) Mother /
Wood
> Elf Father??? Are you seriously suggesting in your post, that a blonde
haired
> elf could not mate with a human that had a different skin colour! If this
> mating took place, would that not create a half-elf baby with dark skin?
>
Not necessarily. In real life it could be anything from blond to dark.
> 3) Just because it is a game, it does not mean it can get away with a lazy
> representation of good / bad vs black / white, even if it is set in a
fantasy
> setting.
>
Why not. This ****is**** a game. It has nothing to do with reality. At least
last time I looked I didn't see people walking in the streets with swords
strapped on.
> 4) The word 'black' is generally used to connote people from the African
> continent with dark skin. (Although the term, like white, is still
problematic,
> however it is generally accepted as being acceptable to use, ie: a New
Zealand
> aboringine could also be considered to be 'black' but would probably not
be
> referred to as such).
>
> 5) The word "negroe", connotes through, an educated understanding of the
sign,
> that a person labelled as such comes from Nigeria (not Africa). (Unless of
> course you are unaware of basic geography see below)
>
> 6) Africa is a continent, not a country, FYA.
>
> 7) We have to step on racism, even subtle racism
>
While we have to step on racism, this is a computer game.
>
> Pete
>
Being one half of a mixed racial marriage, I had a good portion of racism.
Both the 'negative' as the 'positive' and believe it or not : *Both* suck,
bigtime !
I am what I want to be, not because some stork dropped me off in Holland.
And that my wife was dropped near the Equator, so what ?
--
Gert-Jan
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Leo Fellmann
have at it...
Gert-Jan Spoel <gertja...@soneramail.nl> wrote in message
news:6zq66.17885$hy1.2...@news.soneraplaza.nl...
> "PetHmll" <pet...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010107184333...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
> > RE: THE BELOW CRAP
> >
> > >Of course a bloody half-elf can have dark skin, it's (SIC) just got to
be
> a
> > drow
> > >half-elf.. although i do think they have paler skin then pure drow
and
> the
> > >drow have BLACK skin, not the same skin color as negroes... it's not
the
> > >same bloody thing. )
> >
> >
> > Okay here's my ranting space:
> >
> > 1) Okay, firstly, "negroe" is generally considered to be an offensive
> term,
> > which decade are you living in???
> >
>
> Nigger is offensive. Negro not. Only for 'political correct' people who
> keeps on claiming that we have agreed to such things. Political
correctness
> is for people who don't know how to behave towards something/someone
outside
> their box system.
Hang on. Oh, yes, we've got to say "Afro-american" now... Negroe is by no
definition racist, it is a descriptive term. Funny how it's normally the
"whites" ( and why is "black" offensive and "white" not? ) who insist on
such things.
> > 2) Why could a half-elf not be mixed race, for instance, an African,
> Asian
> > (yes I know this fantasy but we all know what I am talking about) Mother
/
> Wood
> > Elf Father??? Are you seriously suggesting in your post, that a blonde
> haired
> > elf could not mate with a human that had a different skin colour! If
this
> > mating took place, would that not create a half-elf baby with dark skin?
> >
>
> Not necessarily. In real life it could be anything from blond to dark.
>
Well, in the Forgotten realms the manuals say that a child produced by two
different sub-species of elf will retain the caracteristics of only one of
the two sub-species
A half-elf will have features that depend on both parents, thus it would be
possible to have an asian drow half-elf.. who posses features proper to both
races. ( although drow half-elves don't have black skin, but grey skin. )
> > 3) Just because it is a game, it does not mean it can get away with a
lazy
> > representation of good / bad vs black / white, even if it is set in a
> fantasy
> > setting.
> >
>
> Why not. This ****is**** a game. It has nothing to do with reality. At
least
> last time I looked I didn't see people walking in the streets with swords
> strapped on.
Quite. So all this racist nonsense is oversensitivity.
N. M. Wallace
>
> Nigger is offensive. Negro not. Only for 'political correct' people who
> keeps on claiming that we have agreed to such things.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry that some white boy has the gall to
tell me what term of reference is or is not offensive.
Free clue: We haven't been "Negroes" since the 1960's. I prefer
African-American, since I'm actually milk chocolate colored and not
black, but I realize that it's long and rather awkward, so black is
fine.
And yes, I prefer "Nancy," but the sad truth is that though it may be
the 21st century, far too many people are going to stop at the color of
my skin before they get as far as introductions.
Nancy,
Wondering when I'm going to stop beating my head against this particular
brick wall. It never helps.
Geoffrey Brent
> While I'm in rant mode, why are there no homosexual or lesbian romance scripts
> in BG2?
>
> Surely ignoring around 10% of the population is grossly insensitive and it
> would be nice to have a choice!
We had a looong discussion about this very topic a couple of
months back - you should be able to find it on Deja with the
keywords "gay romance" or some such, if you want to see what
was said. While I agree with you (bar some doubts about the
'10%' figure), I think most of the things to be said on the
matter were said back then.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> wait. hang on. not that i care about the d&d movie after watching it.
> but...what controversy could having a cleric hanging around cause?
Worship of gods other than (Judeo-Christian) God? I think
you can figure out the rest...
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> Nigger is offensive. Negro not. Only for 'political correct' people who
> keeps on claiming that we have agreed to such things.
It depends a lot on context, though. The most important
thing involved in making a word offensive is usually its
intent - "United Negro College Fund" isn't generally seen
as offensive, obviously, but 'negro' can be used as a term
of abuse and is then likely to give offence.
And if that wasn't complicated enough, some people have
taken to referring to themselves as "niggers", "faggots",
etc - my best guess is because it robs the insults of a lot
of their potency. Though if you're not actually a member of
the group concerned, you'd want to be _very_ careful about
using this form of irony.
In Australia, "wogs" used to be a fairly derogatory term for
people of Greek/Italian/etc background. Then these groups
started using it to describe themselves. Now just about
everybody uses it, in a non-hostile manner - the word has
effectively lost its offensive status. But then, Australian
idioms are rather odd - a lot of insults, e.g. "bastard", are
more likely to be used ironically (as a greeting, etc) than
with hostile intent.
> Political correctness
> is for people who don't know how to behave towards something/someone outside
> their box system. Reminds me about a movie I saw years ago; an elderly
> (white) couple who get their newly black stepson for dinner.
"Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?", I think, and he's a fiance
rather than a stepson.
By a strange coincidence, I've been working on a story based
on that very same theme. Except that in mine, the fiancee is,
um, a mutated rabbit. (She also has black fur, but that's less
of an issue...)
> > Elf Father??? Are you seriously suggesting in your post, that a blonde
> haired
> > elf could not mate with a human that had a different skin colour! If this
> > mating took place, would that not create a half-elf baby with dark skin?
> >
>
> Not necessarily. In real life it could be anything from blond to dark.
'Blonde' in English is used to describe hair colour, not
skin colour, but you're right - the skin colour of a child
is not necessarily the average of its parents'.
> Why not. This ****is**** a game. It has nothing to do with reality. At least
> last time I looked I didn't see people walking in the streets with swords
> strapped on.
IMHO the difference is that including swords and sorcery
makes the game enjoyable. This is a _good_ thing, and an
excellent reason to include them.
But limiting characters almost exclusively to Caucasian
types seems to be a negative for some players, and a neutral
for others, so it seems to me that it _detracts_ from the
game rather than adding to it.
> > 4) The word 'black' is generally used to connote people from the African
> > continent with dark skin. (Although the term, like white, is still
> problematic,
> > however it is generally accepted as being acceptable to use, ie: a New
> Zealand
> > aboringine could also be considered to be 'black' but would probably not
> be
> > referred to as such).
Indigenous New Zealanders are generally known as 'Maori',
that being their own word for it. Indigenous Australians are
variously known as 'indigenous Australians', 'Aboriginals',
'Koori', and 'black', but 'black' can be offensive depending
on context.
> > 5) The word "negroe", connotes through, an educated understanding of the
> sign,
> > that a person labelled as such comes from Nigeria (not Africa). (Unless of
> > course you are unaware of basic geography see below)
Not quite. "Negro", "nigger" and the variants come from
the Latin "niger" (= "black"), possibly via Latin-influenced
languages - I'm not sure of the exact etymology. "Nigeria"
also gets its name from the same stem, AFAIK (probably "the
land of black people"). But AFAIK "negro" does not derive
from "Nigeria".
Geoffrey Brent
Htn963
>Jaheira.
Are you sure? If poor, poor Aerie was good enough for him to go berserk
over in battle when her hit points drop by 99% after accidentally taking a
flying splinter from either Jaheira or Viconia's club....
>As for close friend, first timers were hoodwinked into
>taking her and Khalid on board at the start (another couple of sword
>arms is handy for a level 1 mage),
Why do you Jaheira haters always bring up BG1 when we're discussing
what's going on HERE in BG2? I wasn't hoodwinked and I didn't use her and
Khalid much in BG1 either. But the irrefutable fact is in the beginning of
BG2 she and Khalid have traveled with you for a while and have ended up in
Irenicus' dungeon with you -- that is the premise you should accept, not your
own personal feelings, you whiners!
>Splitting u from a boyfriend of six weeks is one thing, going
>for a new romantic interest after your other half has become your other
>_halves_ is something quite different.
Now THAT was nasty and uncalled for... go for the eyes...nevermind. I'll
ask you the same thing I asked Geoffrey Brent: did you actually complete the
romance to be certain that you are being fair in your assessment of Jaheira's
behavior? She didn't make eyes and jump on my pc's bones the first chance she
got , and because she still respect Khalid's memory and always struggle to do
what's "right and proper", despite any personal feelings, there were many,
many opportunities for you to blow it -- completing this romance happily was
harder than killing the foozle, but it felt really right (sob!)...excuse me...
We literally went through death, hell and mounds of bodies (including many evil
Harpers) before she even allowed herself the luxury of saying she cared for me.
Most of the moralistic and psychological reservations you and Mr. Brent
bought up were frankly, and might I say, sensitively and satisfactorily dealt
with in the course of the romance. And most of these reservations were brought
up, by, you guessed it, Jaheria haters or rivals (Viconia, Aerie, etc.)
Geoffrey Brent
> >As for close friend, first timers were hoodwinked into
> >taking her and Khalid on board at the start (another couple of sword
> >arms is handy for a level 1 mage),
>
> Why do you Jaheira haters always bring up BG1 when we're discussing
> what's going on HERE in BG2?
Because she's (supposed to be) the same person who
appeared in BGI. No doubt somewhat changed by her
experience, but it'd be poor roleplaying for my
character to completely forget what s/he learnt from
several months of travel with Jaheira. If you want to
know how she might behave in a relationship, is it so
unreasonable to look at how she treated her _previous_
partner?
> We literally went through death, hell and mounds of bodies (including many evil
> Harpers) before she even allowed herself the luxury of saying she cared for me.
> Most of the moralistic and psychological reservations you and Mr. Brent
> bought up were frankly, and might I say, sensitively and satisfactorily dealt
> with in the course of the romance.
They were certainly dealt with to some extent, and kudos
to Black Isle for that - but I still found the time interval
involved to be unrealistically short. If it had happened over
a longer period of time, I would've found it more convincing.
Geoffrey Brent
Barbarian X
"N. M. Wallace" <dark...@pardalis.org> skrev i meddelandet
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010108...@grace.speakeasy.org...
> I don't know whether to laugh or cry that some white boy has the gall to
> tell me what term of reference is or is not offensive.
Apparently, what's offensive to one person is not to another, etc...
Over here (in this small country called Sweden) basically all "black" people
come from different african countries, and we usually call them by their
country name ("South Africans", or "Etiopian", or "Eyptians" for that matter
tho they are not "black").
Of course we have racism here too, but that is mostly against Iranians and
Arabs (Iranians are Persians, not Arabs).
(American Black people are mostly reffered to as "Americans").
Btw what is a "white" person? Is a fairly dark-skinned person from southern
Spain concidered white? A person from Greece? A French guy?
> Free clue: We haven't been "Negroes" since the 1960's. I prefer
> African-American, since I'm actually milk chocolate colored and not
> black, but I realize that it's long and rather awkward, so black is
> fine.
*hehe* :) good one :) Go get them girl :)
I have another ? btw
I know you guys have been thru ALOT but how come you insist on the
african-american thing?
I mean wouldn't it be better to just be called "american", no matter what
color you have on your skin?
> And yes, I prefer "Nancy," but the sad truth is that though it may be
> the 21st century, far too many people are going to stop at the color of
> my skin before they get as far as introductions.
Well sadly enough there are racists everywhere. The crisis in Israel right
now for example shows that there are severe racists in every population in
the world :((( even among people who themselves just 60 years ago was
victims to the worst kind imaginable. :(
Humanity never learn, it seems :(
> Nancy,
> Wondering when I'm going to stop beating my head against this particular
> brick wall. It never helps.
On the other hand... if you don't do it, who will? What I mean is that if
everybody stopped doing it nothing would change.
You have MY support anyway :)
> Nancy M. Wallace @}----- dark...@pardalis.org
/Stefan, who hopes you don't find this offensive, because it definitely
wasn't meant that way
Barbarian X
/S
Barbarian X
"PetHmll" <pet...@aol.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:20010108113747...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> Surely ignoring around 10% of the population is grossly insensitive and it
> would be nice to have a choice!
>
> Cheers all,
>
> Sleepy Pete
>
> PS: and before anyone accuses me of being politicaly correct, the world
would
> be a better place if we all were!
Hell no!
Political correctness is a very bad thing. It leads to people not being able
to tell the truth, if it differs from what is "correct".
One should never be politically correct. One should only be Correct. ;)
/S
Barbarian X
"N. M. Wallace" <dark...@pardalis.org> skrev i meddelandet
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010108...@grace.speakeasy.org...
> Who would sie be a cleric of? Using an existing religion would be bound
> to piss someone off, and using the D&D pantheon in a mainstram movie
> would lead to charges that the filmmakers were supporting
> paganism. Remember, the Harry Potter books have been banned in several
> school districts in the U.S. because they allegedly promote Satanism,
> witchcraft, and the occult.
>
*ROFL*
Are you serious? I knew a lot of americans were crazy but...
Oh well...
*Going off to laugh his head off in some (formely) quiet corner*
>
> Nancy
>
/S
Barbarian X
"Geoffrey Brent" <g.b...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:3A5A50B5...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au...
I think the 10% is with Bisexuals too... I think the rate is about 6%...
/S
Geoffrey Brent
> *hehe* :) good one :) Go get them girl :)
> I have another ? btw
> I know you guys have been thru ALOT but how come you insist on the
> african-american thing?
> I mean wouldn't it be better to just be called "american", no matter what
> color you have on your skin?
Sometimes you need to discuss these issues, and then
you do need words to describe the groups affected.
Attempts to pigeonhole people into ethnic groups
depending on their albedo, nose length etc leads to
a lot of ridiculous outcomes, but we need to be able
to discuss it in order to point out just how ridiculous.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> > Who would sie be a cleric of? Using an existing religion would be bound
> > to piss someone off, and using the D&D pantheon in a mainstram movie
> > would lead to charges that the filmmakers were supporting
> > paganism. Remember, the Harry Potter books have been banned in several
> > school districts in the U.S. because they allegedly promote Satanism,
> > witchcraft, and the occult.
> >
>
> *ROFL*
> Are you serious? I knew a lot of americans were crazy but...
> Oh well...
Have a look at www.capalert.com some time (for movie
reviews with a certain slant). Then consider that the
guy doing these is actually quite _reasonable_ compared
to a lot of people out there...
Or there was the Natchez, MS police department website -
which up till recently assured all and sundry that RPGs
would lead children into the 'occult'. (Along with black
clothes, Tarot cards, etc etc etc.) At least that particular
rubbish has now been taken down.
Geoffrey Brent
Barbarian X
> Have a look at www.capalert.com some time (for movie
> reviews with a certain slant). Then consider that the
> guy doing these is actually quite _reasonable_ compared
> to a lot of people out there...
>
> Or there was the Natchez, MS police department website -
> which up till recently assured all and sundry that RPGs
> would lead children into the 'occult'. (Along with black
> clothes, Tarot cards, etc etc etc.) At least that particular
> rubbish has now been taken down.
I knew about that site already :)
I actually read it everytime I have been at the movies, to see what things
they have to say about it...
It's one of the funniest sites in the world, In my oppinion ;)
/S
Trickle
>Yeah the race thing in RPGs gets to me a bit, especially the Tolkienesque ideas
>of the 'dark hordes' being evil and such like, Drow having dark skin also seems
>to be a bit problematic as it tends to suggest that dark skin = evil whilst all
>the 'good' elves fit some kind of Nazi ideal of the super(wo)man; have they got
>a eugenics lab or something set up in Lotlorien?
So? We like our bad guys to truely be bad. As you said dark skin
(black as appose to brown) = evil. You said it yourself. Besides, as
another recent thread pointed out, these all date back to the time of
Tolkien - just as you say. There is no inherant racist agenda on the
part of Bioware here. You seem to be creating one yourself.
>As for the games themselves, there does not seem to be one asian female
>character portrait, my girlfriend love CPRG's and was really miffed that there
>were not any asian women portraits in BG 1; I do think part of the fun of the
>game is identifying with your alter ego in some way.
Fair play. But the portraits are very limited in any case. I never use
the standard ones as none of them please me. Remember they have alot
of gnome/dwarf rubbish in there too. Bioware (or is it black isle?)
have already shown they prioritise for the largest section of the user
base with the female romance options (ie just 1). Would you do any
different were you the game developer? Of course you wouldnt. Your
superiors are breathing costs and deadlines down your back.
Icewind Dale came with some asian female portraits as standard iirc.
You should be able to get them at gamers-allegiance.com
> Also, I'm only at the
>beginning of BG 2 and already the asian characters from Calisham (sp?) are
>painted in a negative light. (The ones outside Trademeet).
Those genie esk characters there arnt human and are suposed to be
somewhat on the shady side. You might do well to learn something of
the background of the *fantesy* world before you lable it as racist.
>I don't know if I'm
>being over-sensitive,
You are.
>but subtle negative racism seems more worrying in some
>ways than explicit racism, as it could maybe infect people's brains with
>dangerous ideas*.
Trickle
> for instance why can't a half-elf have dark
>skin, has anyone ever seen a picture of one?
Same reason why an Iron age Viking couldnt have black skin.
Trickle
>My copy of LOTR is in a box, so I can't check the copyright dates, but I
>believe it's more like 50 years ago.
He started writing it towards the end of the 2nd world war afaik.
Barbarian X
> pet...@aol.com (PetHmll) wrote:
> >but subtle negative racism seems more worrying in some
> >ways than explicit racism, as it could maybe infect people's brains with
> >dangerous ideas*.
The idea that anyone would get "dangerous ideas" from this RPG (as in
becoming racists) is laughable. Seriously.
Besides, both in BG1 and in BG2 you get a lesson in Non-racism, at least if
you pick up Viconia...
(Small spoiler: In the first game, you save her from a city guard who are
going to kill her simply because she is Drow, not because of any crime she
has committed. In the Second game, you save her from being burnt as a witch,
for the same reason. Simply because of her heritage).
/S
Derville
PetHmll <pet...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010107184333...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
> RE: THE BELOW CRAP
>
> >Of course a bloody half-elf can have dark skin, it's (SIC) just got
to be a
> drow
> >half-elf.. although i do think they have paler skin then pure drow
and the
> >drow have BLACK skin, not the same skin color as negroes... it's not
the
> >same bloody thing. )
>
> Okay here's my ranting space:
>
> 1) Okay, firstly, "negroe" is generally considered to be an offensive
term,
> which decade are you living in???
If we took out all the terms which people objected to, then we'd have no
use for Usenet, because we'd have nothing to call one another by.
Personally, I see little wrong with the term "negro" (or indeed words
like "nigger" and so on, which you can find in an awful lot of books
from the 19th century. To take an example, Poe's "The Gold Bug" sees a
manservant calling himself "de poor ol' nigger", which I can't for the
life of me see as being in any way relevant to modern society's
attitudes. A bit of a rant here, but words are awfully powerful things,
and even more so when people realise they can twist the subconscious
meanings behind them). What troubles me is always the intent behind the
word being used, which is where the argument gets a bit more convoluted.
> 2) Why could a half-elf not be mixed race, for instance, an African,
Asian
> (yes I know this fantasy but we all know what I am talking about)
Mother / Wood
> Elf Father??? Are you seriously suggesting in your post, that a blonde
haired
> elf could not mate with a human that had a different skin colour! If
this
> mating took place, would that not create a half-elf baby with dark
skin?
Like half-orcs? I agree with this. On the half orc issue, it's been
suggested that the parents perhaps would not always have both been
willing participants (i.e. rape, to continue the orcish/human species),
so I see no reason why the same couldn't happen here. However, this is
not exactly an act of compassionate love and tenderness, which may
explain why one may prefer to brush over such possibilities.
> 3) Just because it is a game, it does not mean it can get away with a
lazy
> representation of good / bad vs black / white, even if it is set in a
fantasy
> setting.
But fair's fair, we've had the black vs white thing for years. Look at
black and white films, where the goodie wears white and ther baddie
wears black. It's all but ingrained into the minds of people nowadays
(the most evil man in the Universe, Darth Vader, didn't choose to follow
the changing colour trends, sticking with black, so the tradition is
alive and well). My point of view is that it saves a lot of time
setting a scene if we stick to these traditonal images, and allow the
storyline to develop more fully in other areas, rather than say "Here's
the hero, who wears black to mourn the death of his father, who was
killed by the man wearing white, who wears white because he tricked a
deity into blessing him and was given the Robe of the White Archmagi as
a present".
> 4) The word 'black' is generally used to connote people from the
African
> continent with dark skin. (Although the term, like white, is still
problematic,
> however it is generally accepted as being acceptable to use, ie: a New
Zealand
> aboringine could also be considered to be 'black' but would probably
not be
> referred to as such).
I ahree, there's problems here. OT, but how about this; I've got a load
of forms from solicitor's firms lying around at home at the moment, and
flavour of the month is the form to fill in stating "This information
will be kept for our records only and will not be used when we decide
who to interview blah blah blah" (the obvious retort here is to ask why
the devil they want the info in the first place then). Anyway, one of
the lists to fill in is to tick one's ethnic origin. Choices include
Black (yup, a really precise term there), Indian, Bangladeshi
(Pakistanis and the like are out of luck here), Asian (China, Japan,
Korea, what's the difference?), White, and Irish (I had to mention this
last one, since it's so bleedin' stupid ;-)). Anyway, my point is that
even when we try to show that we are taking an interest in ethnic
groups, people can still stuff things up major league. Another example:
Father dearest used to work in Kent, and was there when Idi Amin started
kicking the Asians out of Uganda. Well, the local authority there had a
massive home with loads of rooms, so they volunteered to house two large
"Asian" families. Yup, you guessed it, one was a Hindi family and the
other wasn't - there was something close to World War 3 breaking out in
that house, all because of someone's inability to think beyond the word
"Asian". So, when it comes to making generalisations, we English at
least suck something rotten.
> 7) We have to step on racism, even subtle racism
I'd agree with that, but we also have to make sure we don't go all
Puritanical when going about this and end up with a society where so
much as mentioning skin colour is an indictable offence. But that's
just my 2d.
Derville
N. M. Wallace <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010108...@grace.speakeasy.org...
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, freshie wrote:
>
> The first RPG I ever played was Shadowrun, which has a world where
> sinister Japanese megacorps run nearly everything. When I go back and
> read the sourcebooks now, it's laughable, but in the '80's, when this
> stuff was written, a lot of people really believed that the Japanese
> were going to economically dominate the world. People write what they
> know, and if what they "know" is that the Japanese are taking over, or
> that dark-skinned people are inferior to light-skinned ones, or that
> women are only good for producing and raising children, then that will
> be reflected in what they write. Does this mean that everything they
> write is bad? Not necessarily...but it does mean that, as with
> everything else, literature needs to be read with a critical eye, and
> not just accept someone else's ideas lock, stock and barrel because
> "it's a classic."
>
> Nancy,
>
> Stepping off my litcrit soapbox.
This got me thinking on the whole "product of its time" issue. Anyway,
I watched Dr Strangelove the other day, and was just pondering how
impossible it would be to make something like that today. We've got no
"Commie bastards" to nuke, nothing really to work up excessive paranoia
over (which is possibly one of the main reasons for the term 'racism'
coming to be coined, along with fear), and the world has become this
rather weird place where we can listen to black rap artists refer to one
another as "niggaz", but the OJ Simpson trial all but fell apart when a
white policeman was heard to use the same word. I'll be blowed if I
know where this is going to end, but (to get back to the literature
topic) I agree with you that it's easy to write about what one sees as
the Next Big Threat, be it evil Commies marching across Poland, or
squillions of identical looking Asiatics swimming across the Pacific to
invade the Brave New World of the USA. The good news is that we are
seeing authors seeking to put across some new ideas to try and redress
the balance (one that comes to mind is Maya Angelou's "I Know Why the
Caged Bird Sings", which aims to give a no-nonsense account of her
formative years), but then we have the problem that we may stifle some
creative talent by slamming down on their work if it contains words
which we don't like this week. Now Tolkien may have been racist (I've
heard him called a mysoginist), but if he's writing an all time classic
tale (which LOTR is, for my money anyway), then ought not we, the
readers and critics, be able to cut him the slack to exercise his
creative juices? And can we really get away with trying to look back to
fifty plus years ago and trying him retrospectively (In the foreword to
LOTR, Tolkien tries to deny absolutely any link between Sauron et cie
and Nazi Germany, as a lot of the book was written leading up to 1939)?
--
P. (going back to his law books, where calling someone a "Commie" is
doubtless grounds for appeal)
Gert-Jan Spoel
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.010108...@grace.speakeasy.org...
>
> >
> > Nigger is offensive. Negro not. Only for 'political correct' people who
> > keeps on claiming that we have agreed to such things.
>
> I don't know whether to laugh or cry that some white boy has the gall to
> tell me what term of reference is or is not offensive.
>
That has been a long time since I was called boy. Somewhere in the late
sixties a shopkeeper made that mistake. I was still young then, but even
then I made a stand against people who thought or acted as if they were
someones superior.
My friends and *relatives* don't give a shit if the are called negro. I
guess that we are in the happy circumstance that we are not born in such a
racist environment like you. But negro is, according to the oxford
dictionary, ' a member of the black skinned race of mankind that originated
in Africa'. Nothing wrong with that. But as the black skinned people were
second rate civilians, some persons thought to change it by given the box a
different name. Changing the name of a box did not solve a thing off course.
Only changing society can do that.
I firmly believe that banishing racism can only be done by respect. One
could always try with violence, but that will lead to fear. Fear is one of
the major contributors to racism. Respect does not come from looking for
differences. Respect comes from finding mutual interest, mutal agreements
and such. (I hate the english language; I can't say exactly what I mean).
> Free clue: We haven't been "Negroes" since the 1960's. I prefer
> African-American, since I'm actually milk chocolate colored and not
> black, but I realize that it's long and rather awkward, so black is
> fine.
>
I don't think milk chocolate color is awkward.
> And yes, I prefer "Nancy," but the sad truth is that though it may be
> the 21st century, far too many people are going to stop at the color of
> my skin before they get as far as introductions.
>
Let's face it, whatever you do, you will never get appreciation of all
people, so start weeding out those assholes. So what if they have prejudice
against you before being introduced. Don't introduce yourself then. Let your
boss decide whether he wants a black, a female or a capable employee. If he
prefers that last option than let him take care you are treated like that.
What else are they for ? If you are self-employed choose your assignments. I
work in the IT on project base. For some projects they don't even ask me,
even though I am the most qualified for it. They know I don't work for them.
There is always another job/employer. But there is only one mirror to face
each morning. I can not respect others if I can not respect myself.
> Nancy,
> Wondering when I'm going to stop beating my head against this particular
> brick wall. It never helps.
>
>
It never will, untill you start thinking about a two box system : humans <->
assholes. Black is beautiful, but so is white. Enjoy the beauty not the
distinction.
>
> Nancy M. Wallace @}----- dark...@pardalis.org
>
> "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari
> fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives,
> be somewhere else."
>
> -- Ambassador Delenn, "Severed Dreams," Babylon 5
>
>
PetHmll
I think it gets complex in terms of *people*, myself included, getting racial
abuse, or seeing things that are unfair. I don't know what the answers are, I
doubt anyone does, aside from love / respect your fellow person, however we
need to talk about this stuff too, this *is* goodl!
I *do* think we have to make a point or sometimes, even if it just keeps people
on their toes (it has nothing to do with PCness either). And as for the crit
theory debate on this thread, yeah we need it, else people will be unaware of
the negative stereotyping in cultural products.
In case anyone missed it, the reason I started this debate was because somebody
close to me was pissed off she couldn't play a character with an asian portrait
in B1. I still stand by that, and I still think that Bioware could do something
about it, esp. in NeverWinter Nights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(And also yes, sod, the bloody AD&D rulebook, VTM PNP has no such problem....
don't get me started on the romance in the PC game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Take care,
Sleepy Pete
Geoffrey Brent
> If we took out all the terms which people objected to, then we'd have no
> use for Usenet, because we'd have nothing to call one another by.
> Personally, I see little wrong with the term "negro" (or indeed words
> like "nigger" and so on, which you can find in an awful lot of books
> from the 19th century. To take an example, Poe's "The Gold Bug" sees a
> manservant calling himself "de poor ol' nigger", which I can't for the
> life of me see as being in any way relevant to modern society's
> attitudes.
Poe's not a good example. By modern standards he's quite
racist, but IIRC even by the standards of his own time
he was perhaps more racist than the norm. As Nancy said,
someone can be a great author and still be a racist - and
you can read their work and appreciate its merits without
condoning its flaws.
Of course, just about anybody writing at the time _would_
have used 'nigger'. "Huckleberry Finn", which is really a
rather strongly anti-slavery book if you read between the
lines, uses that word - and ironically enough was banned
in some places for it, something that I _do_ consider to
be over-zealous PCness.
The real problem is the history of the word, and its
connotations. Not so long ago the swastika was a popular
symbol all over the place - I used to have an old copy
of the Jungle Book with swastikas and elephants on the
spine. (The claim that the Nazis used right-handed
swastikas and everybody else used only left-handed ones
is an urban myth, BTW - both forms were in use well before
the Nazis adopted the symbol.) Stripped of its connotations,
I think it's actually rather an attractive design. But for
an awful lot of people it carries very strong connotations
that make it distressing; it's also a rallying point for
some very unpleasant types, which is why it's generally
polite to refrain from using it. The problem with the word
"nigger" is not much different. Used in the 19th century it
means very little, since just about everyone used the word,
but using it in modern society is usually tasteless.
> But fair's fair, we've had the black vs white thing for years.
Sure. Nobody's claiming that computer games are the
source of the problem, or even a major aspect of it -
but even if they're only a small part of the problem,
it wouldn't hurt to try fixing it. 'Small strokes fell
mighty oaks', and all that.
> the lists to fill in is to tick one's ethnic origin. Choices include
> Black (yup, a really precise term there), Indian, Bangladeshi
> (Pakistanis and the like are out of luck here), Asian (China, Japan,
> Korea, what's the difference?), White, and Irish (I had to mention this
> last one, since it's so bleedin' stupid ;-)).
This is one case where the problem could probably be
solved simply by removing the question :-)
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
Derville wrote:
> This got me thinking on the whole "product of its time" issue. Anyway,
> I watched Dr Strangelove the other day, and was just pondering how
> impossible it would be to make something like that today. We've got no
> "Commie bastards" to nuke, nothing really to work up excessive paranoia
> over
Well, there's always Iraq :-)
Don't get me wrong, Saddam Hussein's a heavily armed
psychopath, but there are plenty of people who aren't
above exaggerating the menace he poses for their own
political ends - or simply because nothing sells papers
like a good villain.
And the chemical weapons we keep hearing so much about?
Well, a few years earlier, it was public knowledge that
Iraq was using them on Iranian soldiers and its own
civilians - but while Iraq was a US _ally_, receiving
US military aid, apparently this wasn't a problem.
Ironically enough, during some of that time, the head
of the CIA was none other than George Bush Sr. So I have
trouble taking his 'moral outrage' at the invasion of
Kuwait very seriously.
> which we don't like this week. Now Tolkien may have been racist (I've
> heard him called a mysoginist), but if he's writing an all time classic
> tale (which LOTR is, for my money anyway), then ought not we, the
> readers and critics, be able to cut him the slack to exercise his
> creative juices? And can we really get away with trying to look back to
> fifty plus years ago and trying him retrospectively (In the foreword to
> LOTR, Tolkien tries to deny absolutely any link between Sauron et cie
> and Nazi Germany, as a lot of the book was written leading up to 1939)?
It's not a case of saying "Tolkien was a racist, therefore
his work is worthless". Better to acknowledge its merits
_and_ its flaws - and when a modern fantasy author has the
same flaws, "but Tolkien did it!" is not an excuse.
Geoffrey Brent