w's dilemma
One's Realy One
--
One Real One
http://www.cafepress.com/fartotheleft
Venger
"One's Realy One" <Real...@Real.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96BCBB9D1D...@216.77.188.18...
> Cindy is Back.
Good, her footprints on her son's coffin were starting to fade.
> They couldn't keep her away.
Like Herpes.
Venger
will(from the reality based community)
>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>
>>Cindy is Back. They couldn't keep her away.
>
>Well let's see in the past couple of weeks her husband filed for
>divorce and her mom had a stroke. Another son is pleading for her to
>come home and support what's left of the family she's doing her best
>to tear apart. So now she's back in Crawford, doing exactly one of the
>things that she accuses Bush of doing... that being exploiting the
>name of dead soldiers for a political agenda... but at what price?
>She'll have to rely on the profits from the book she will no doubt
>write in order to get by. I hope that pushing her political agenda is
>worth all of that to her because Casey isn't coming back, Bush isn't
>going to meet with her (not that she really wants a meeting anyway)
>and she doesn't represent all of the families of dead soldiers anyway.
She's standing for herself and her own views. She thinks it sucks and
she's saying so.
Got a problem with that?
will(from the reality based community)
>Yeah. I think it's a pity that she's shitting on her own son's coffin
>in the name of politics. It's bad enough when someone else does it,
>but this is his mom. Her choice though. He deserves better.
Listen, everyone has to find meaning for themselves. He's dead, it
don't mean nothing to him. Some parents will fight to believe their
son dies for something. Some think their kid died for nothing. Some
have to give meaning to that loss by using it to stop others from
dying.
Idiots that don't understand this ought to shut up.
Let the people feel what they feel to get through it. It is human
decency.
Al Mundy
"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
news:g1ksg1dmujf1r31jn...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:35:53 GMT, "will(from the reality based
> community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>
> in the name of politics. It's bad enough when someone else does it,
> but this is his mom. Her choice though. He deserves better.
Ensuring that he didn't die in vain is "shitting on her son's coffin"?
will(from the reality based community)
I keep responding to Spike in hopes that he gets it some day. He's
just one of billions and every head is a world.
>
Al Mundy
"will(from the reality based community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote in
message news:52lsg1p7n251sbfh3...@4ax.com...
Spike would prefer the white house hide the coffins, and that Arlington be
closed to the public so that accurate death tolls would be impossible to
obtain. Of course, he doesn't seem to mind counting everyone Saddam
buried...
TLG
>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>
>>Cindy is Back. They couldn't keep her away.
Like a recurring infection. Doesn't make it something to be admired.
>Well let's see in the past couple of weeks her husband filed for
>divorce and her mom had a stroke. Another son is pleading for her to
>come home and support what's left of the family she's doing her best
>to tear apart. So now she's back in Crawford, doing exactly one of the
>things that she accuses Bush of doing... that being exploiting the
>name of dead soldiers for a political agenda... but at what price?
>She'll have to rely on the profits from the book she will no doubt
>write in order to get by. I hope that pushing her political agenda is
>worth all of that to her because Casey isn't coming back, Bush isn't
>going to meet with her (not that she really wants a meeting anyway)
>and she doesn't represent all of the families of dead soldiers anyway.
Tells you a lot about a woman who hates a president more than she
loves her own husband and children. If she didn't love the son she
lost any more than she loves the rest of her family, she's just using
his death, plain and simple.
The hate-driven Leftist mindset is a horrible thing. She opposed the
war before her son ever shipped out. Worst part is, he disagreed with
her completely concerning the war, and would be appalled at the way
she's now using his death in an attempt to further a cause he
vehemently opposed.
Disgraceful.
* * *
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest thing.
The ugliest thing is the man who thinks nothing is
worth fighting and dying for and lets men better
and braver than himself protect him."
- John Stuart Mill, 1859
TLG
<bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Abandoning a war zone with the job unfinished is 'ensuring he didn't
die in vain?'
Your balloon just never comes down.
will(from the reality based community)
We're going to abandon Iraq. We either do it sooner when less die or
later when more die.
Take your pick.
will(from the reality based community)
>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:25:27 GMT, "Al Mundy"
><bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>She's trying to ensure that he DID die in vain.
He did die in vain. We're not going to build Iraq into a democracy. By
definition, they have to decide to be a democracy. Only idiots like
you who don't think for yourselves would think otherwise. You get sold
on someone's scheme or plan and stick to it longer than they do.
>She wants us to pull
>everything out of Iraq immediately.
Doesn't matter if it happens in 2 weeks or 2 years. Iraq is screwed
when we leave until one little Hitler beats the other little Hitlers
and dominates Iraq or it splits up so every Hitler has his turf.
At that point, you'll still be too blinded by BS to know that the
deaths were in vain the moment we decided to send our soldiers there
for regime change and there were no WMD. But most people will figure
it out until the next wave of propaganda telling them to blame the
liberals.
>She just wants to leave a big
>gaping hole there. Completely abandon the people that her son tried to
>help. And she wants the Jews out of Israel, and the US is not worth
>dying for, and George Bush is a murderer, the biggest terrorist in
>the world, though I can't figure out what any of that has to do with
>her son.
will(from the reality based community)
>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:24:00 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
>><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>
>Tells you a lot about a woman who hates a president more than she
>loves her own husband and children.
She's a kinda Clint Eastwood figure bent on revenge. Still that makes
more sense than the folks that love Dubya's BS more than the long life
of their kids.
Al Mundy
"TLG" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:r1osg1dchfkppd5tv...@4ax.com...
You never heard the expressions "throwing good money after bad"? That's
what letting more American troops die is doing.
Al Mundy
"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> everything out of Iraq immediately. She just wants to leave a big
> gaping hole there. Completely abandon the people that her son tried to
> help. And she wants the Jews out of Israel, and the US is not worth
> dying for, and George Bush is a murderer, the biggest terrorist in
> the world, though I can't figure out what any of that has to do with
> her son.
Dying to stop the war is glory. Dying for the US is glory.
Dying for Iraq is dying in vain.
Al Mundy
"will(from the reality based community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote in
message news:mtpsg1p54hh6k3rul...@4ax.com...
You'll note the woman Bush pulled up hasn't lost anyone in Iraq yet. Maybe
(god pray it doesn't happen) if she were to lose two of her family Bush will
put her on stage again.
will(from the reality based community)
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:51:15 GMT, "will(from the reality based
>Only if we pull out of Iraq and leave a gaping power vacuum.
>
>>We're not going to build Iraq into a democracy. By
>>definition, they have to decide to be a democracy.
>
>I dunno, maybe you missed the voting, the drafting of the
>constitution, etc. Hell they had better voter turnout than WE do and
So we installed a democracy and can come home. Fine with me. Bush can
save face with whatever he wants to use. Just get the guys out of
there.
>they were turning out in those numbers in defiance of death threats.
will(from the reality based community)
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:05:15 GMT, "Al Mundy"
>Look Dave, Iraq still has a chance to straighten out. There's no
>chance at all if we pull out now.
BS. They can sink or swim with or without us. Quit the codependent
garbage.
>Pulling out now ENSURES that Casey
>Sheehan died in vain. We owe it to him and everyone else who has died
>in the war to do the right thing and stick it out.
will(from the reality based community)
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:53:07 GMT, "will(from the reality based
>community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:19:16 GMT, TLG <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:24:00 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
>>>><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Tells you a lot about a woman who hates a president more than she
>>>loves her own husband and children.
>>
>>She's a kinda Clint Eastwood figure bent on revenge.
>
>Oh. It's about revenge? What's she gonna do, make sure that Bush isn't
>reelected in 2008?
Yeah, it is about facing down the corrupt Mayor in Crawford.
TLG
community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:19:16 GMT, TLG <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:24:00 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
>>><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Tells you a lot about a woman who hates a president more than she
>>loves her own husband and children.
>
>She's a kinda Clint Eastwood figure bent on revenge.
Which doesn't disprove anything I said.
TLG
<bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"will(from the reality based community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote in
>message news:mtpsg1p54hh6k3rul...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:19:16 GMT, TLG <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:24:00 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
>> >><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Tells you a lot about a woman who hates a president more than she
>> >loves her own husband and children.
>>
>> She's a kinda Clint Eastwood figure bent on revenge. Still that makes
>> more sense than the folks that love Dubya's BS more than the long life
>> of their kids.
>
>You'll note the woman Bush pulled up hasn't lost anyone in Iraq yet.
The woman likely wouldn't change her stance. Honest people of genuine
conviction usually don't.
Sheehan's a different story. She opposed the war and her son's views
on it even before he went to Iraq, which is fine. But hypocrite that
she is, she had this to say about the president last year:
http://www.thereporter.com/republished/ci_2923921
Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting [with
the president]. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form
letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an
impersonal gesture.
"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis," Cindy
said after their meeting. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for
our loss. And I know he's a man of faith."
The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke
about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count
for something. They also spoke of their faith.
While meeting with Bush, as well as Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, was
an honor, it was almost a tangent benefit of the trip. The Sheehans
said they enjoyed meeting the other families of fallen soldiers,
sharing stories, contact information, grief and support.
For some, grief was still visceral and raw, while for others it had
melted into the background of their lives, the pain as common as
breathing. Cindy said she saw her reflection in the troubled eyes of
each.
"It's hard to lose a son," she said. "But we (all) lost a son in the
Iraqi war."
The trip had one benefit that none of the Sheehans expected.
For a moment, life returned to the way it was before Casey died. They
laughed, joked and bickered playfully as they briefly toured Seattle.
For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again.
"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of
being together," Cindy said.
* * *
And now, she's throwing away her entire family in a misguided attempt
at vengeance against a man she only recently called 'sincere' and 'a
man of faith.'
That irrational Leftist hatred runs deep.
TLG
community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:33:30 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:25:27 GMT, "Al Mundy"
>><bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
>>>news:g1ksg1dmujf1r31jn...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:35:53 GMT, "will(from the reality based
>>>> community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>>>> >She's standing for herself and her own views. She thinks it sucks and
>>>> >she's saying so.
>>>> >
>>>> >Got a problem with that?
>>>>
>>>> Yeah. I think it's a pity that she's shitting on her own son's coffin
>>>> in the name of politics. It's bad enough when someone else does it,
>>>> but this is his mom. Her choice though. He deserves better.
>>>
>>>Ensuring that he didn't die in vain is "shitting on her son's coffin"?
>>
>>She's trying to ensure that he DID die in vain.
>
>He did die in vain. We're not going to build Iraq into a democracy. By
>definition, they have to decide to be a democracy. Only idiots like
>you who don't think for yourselves would think otherwise. You get sold
>on someone's scheme or plan and stick to it longer than they do.
I have no doubt the 'independent thinking' Lefties in here will have
plenty of snide replies to the following. You'll pardon me if I
disregard them as the parroting of Leftist propaganda they are.
Here you go. The heartfelt words of one of those Iraqis you so easily
dismiss:
* * *
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2005/08/message-to-cindy-sheehan.html
Friday, August 12, 2005
A message to Cindy Sheehan
I realize how tragic your loss is and I know how much pain there is
crushing your heart and I know the darkness that suddenly came to wrap
your life and wipe away your dreams and I do feel the heat of your
tears that won't dry until you find the answers to your question; why
you lost your loved one?
I have heard your story and I understand that you have the full right
to ask people to stand by your side and support your cause. At the
beginning I told myself, this is yet another woman who lost a piece of
her heart and the questions of war, peace and why are killing her
everyday. To be frank to you the first thing I thought of was like
"why should I listen or care to answer when there are thousands of
other women in America, Iraq and Afghanistan who lost a son or a
husband or a brother?"
But today I was looking at your picture and I saw in your eyes a
persistence, a great pain and a torturing question; why?
I know how you feel Cindy, I lived among the same pains for 35 years
but worse than that was the fear from losing our loved ones at any
moment. Even while I'm writing these words to you there are feelings
of fear, stress, and sadness that interrupt our lives all the time but
in spite of all that I'm sticking hard to hope which if I didn't have
I would have died years ago.
Ma'am, we asked for your nation's help and we asked you to stand with
us in our war and your nation's act was (and still is) an act of
ultimate courage and unmatched sense of humanity.
Our request is justified, death was our daily bread and a million
Iraqi mothers were expecting death to knock on their doors at any
second to claim someone from their families.
Your face doesn't look strange to me at all; I see it everyday on
endless numbers of Iraqi women who were struck by losses like yours.
Our fellow country men and women were buried alive, cut to pieces and
thrown in acid pools and some were fed to the wild dogs while those
who were lucky enough ran away to live like strangers and the Iraqi
mother was left to grieve one son buried in an unfound grave and
another one living far away who she might not get to see again.
We did nothing to deserve all that suffering, well except for a dream
we had; a dream of living like normal people do.
We cried out of joy the day your son and his comrades freed us from
the hands of the devil and we went to the streets not believing that
the nightmare is over.
We practiced our freedom first by kicking and burning the statues and
portraits of the hateful idol who stole 35 years from the life of a
nation.
For the first time air smelled that beautiful, that was the smell of
freedom.
The mothers went to break the bars of cells looking for the ones they
lost 5, 12 or 20 years ago and other women went to dig the land with
their bare hand searching for a few bones they can hold in their arms
after they couldn't hold them when they belonged to a living person.
I recall seeing a woman on TV two years ago, she was digging through
the dirt with her hands. There was no definite grave in there as the
whole place was one large grave but she seemed willing to dig the
whole place looking for her two brothers who disappeared from earth 24
years ago when they were dragged from their colleges to a chamber of
hell.
Her tears mixed with the dirt of the grave and there were journalists
asking her about what her brothers did wrong and she was screaming "I
don't know, I don't know. They were only college students. They didn't
murder anyone, they didn't steal, and they didn't hurt anyone in their
lives. All I want to know is the place of their grave".
Why was this woman chosen to lose her dear ones? Why you? Why did a
million women have to go through the same pain?
We did not choose war for the sake of war itself and we didn't
sacrifice a million lives for fun! We could've accepted our jailor and
kept living in our chains for the rest of our lives but it's freedom
ma'am.
Freedom is not an American thing and it's not an Iraqi thing, it's
what unites us as human beings. We refuse all kinds of restrictions
and that's why we fought and still fighting everyday in spite of the
swords in the hands of the cavemen who want us dead or slaves for
their evil masters.
You are free to go and leave us alone but what am I going to tell your
million sisters in Iraq? Should I ask them to leave Iraq too? Should I
leave too? And what about the eight millions who walked through bombs
to practice their freedom and vote? Should they leave this land too?
Is it a cursed land that no one should live in? Why is it that we were
chosen to live in all this pain, why me, why my people, why you?
But I am not leaving this land because the bad guys are not going to
leave us or you to live in peace. They are the same ones who flew the
planes to kill your people in New York.
I ask you in the name of God or whatever you believe in; do not waste
your son's blood.
We here have decided to avenge humanity, you and all the women who
lost their loved ones.
Take a look at our enemy Cindy, look closely at the hooded man holding
the sword and if you think he's right then I will back off and support
your call.
We live in pain and grief everyday, every hour, every minute; all the
horrors of the powers of darkness have been directed at us and I don't
know exactly when am I going to feel safe again, maybe in a year,
maybe two or even ten; I frankly don't know but I don't want to lose
hope and faith.
We are in need for every hand that can offer some help. Please pray
for us, I know that God listens to mothers' prayers and I call all the
women on earth to pray with you for peace in this world.
Your son sacrificed his life for a very noble cause -- No, he
sacrificed himself for the most precious value in this existence; that
is freedom.
His blood didn't go in vain; your son and our brethren are drawing a
great example of selflessness.
God bless his free soul and God bless the souls of his comrades who
are fighting evil.
God bless the souls of Iraqis who suffered and died for the sake of
freedom.
God bless all the freedom lovers on earth.
will(from the reality based community)
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:59:30 GMT, "will(from the reality based
>community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:39:54 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:53:07 GMT, "will(from the reality based
>>>community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:19:16 GMT, TLG <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:24:00 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:24:54 GMT, "One's Realy One"
>>>>>><Real...@Real.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Tells you a lot about a woman who hates a president more than she
>>>>>loves her own husband and children.
>>>>
>>>>She's a kinda Clint Eastwood figure bent on revenge.
>>>
>>>Oh. It's about revenge? What's she gonna do, make sure that Bush isn't
>>>reelected in 2008?
>>
>>Yeah, it is about facing down the corrupt Mayor in Crawford.
>
>Seriously, how is she going to exact her revenge?
She already has. He's going around the country to sell his war because
the people have decided it was a mistake. Well, the people with the
ability to learn.
> Think the
>Republican-controlled House will impeach him because she wants them
>to? What would avenge her son's death?
TLG
<bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's what you want it to be. That isn't what it is.
There were those who said the same thing as American soldiers died in
the post-war rebuilding of Europe, killed at the hands of those who
refused to admit defeat.
Your impatience and short-sightedness are nothing new.
* * *
"We cried out of joy the day your son and
his comrades freed us from the hands of the
devil and we went to the streets not believing
that the nightmare is over...we practiced our
freedom first by kicking and burning the statues
and portraits of the hateful idol who stole
35 years from the life of a nation. For the
first time air smelled that beautiful, that was
the smell of freedom.
"The mothers went to break the bars of cells
looking for the ones they lost 5, 12 or 20 years
ago and other women went to dig the land with
their bare hand searching for a few bones they
can hold in their arms after they couldn't hold
them when they belonged to a living person."
-- from an open letter to Cindy Sheehan, written by
an Iraqi national
Al Mundy
I've tried finding any data on these deaths, and can't locate any. Do you
happen to have any information as to how many lives were lost during the
occupation of any country after WWII?
I did find some referring to Japan:
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5810§ionID=44
The Japanese case offers a stark comparison. In six years of occupation
(1945-51), not a single member of the occupying forces was killed and issues
of security were quickly turned over to Japanese police, allowing the
occupation authorities to concentrate on political and social reform,
economic restructuring, reconstruction, and development. Nor were Japanese
the victims of American attacks.
Another reference I found was a q&a that said allied deaths during the
occupation of Japan were mostly "friendly fire deaths". Another responder
said that an Allied general asked a japanese general why there was no
resistance to the occupation, and the japanese general replied that they
lost the war due to divine wishes, and therefore they lost.
In germany, I did find reference to a group of socialists called the Werewof
that continued fighting till the end of the 40's.
But, the US did have a few other countries helping occupy germany. And I
doubt that Macedonia sent 10 troops so they could be included in the
"coalition". I also have seen references to occupier's (US) behavior being
so bad the Army was given orders to behave, as in non-fraternazation, etc.
I did find the following quick reference:
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Occ-GY/ch24.htm
To add to the strains on the unsettled and unhappy country, violence of all
kinds, excepting resistance to the occupation authorities, increased in the
early half of 1946. Incidents caused by U.S. troops, if no more numerous
than they had been in the last months of 1945, were certainly no fewer; they
included, as they had earlier, wanton killing, looting, and threats and
assaults on German police and civilians. In May, Jewish DPs in big camps at
Foehrenwald and Landsberg, Bavaria, rioted against both the Germans and the
Americans for no better reason apparently than the unfounded rumors that
some Jews had been kidnapped. Attacks by Germans on American soldiers,
almost unheard of before, were increasing too, mostly because of
fraternization between soldiers and German women. German men resented the
women's willingness to consort with U.S. soldiers, the soldiers' affluence,
and their own inability to rank even as minor competition for the
"attacks by germans on american soldiers, almost unheard of before" - And
this is a year after the defeat of Germany.
So, if you have some data on how many troops we lost in the occupation, I
would be most interested.
And of course, the de-baathification is awfully close to the de-naziing of
Germany..
>
> Your impatience and short-sightedness are nothing new.
And your willingness to use data of which you have no proof isn't very new
either.......
Al Mundy
"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:17:39 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> There were those who said the same thing as American soldiers died in
> >> the post-war rebuilding of Europe, killed at the hands of those who
> >> refused to admit defeat.
> >
> >I've tried finding any data on these deaths, and can't locate any. Do you
> >happen to have any information as to how many lives were lost during the
> >occupation of any country after WWII?
> >
> >I did find some referring to Japan:
> >http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5810§ionID=44
>
We still have them, don't we?
>
Al Mundy
"Al Mundy" <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:772Qe.4588$u_6....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "TLG" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:bih0h1hqjqlohrvnu...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:03:06 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> > <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"TLG" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
> > >news:r1osg1dchfkppd5tv...@4ax.com...
> > >> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:25:27 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> > >> <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> > >> >news:g1ksg1dmujf1r31jn...@4ax.com...
> > >> >> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:35:53 GMT, "will(from the reality based
> > >> >> community)" <will...@canoemail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:24:00 GMT, Spike <sp...@spike.spike>
wrote:
> > the post-war rebuilding of Europe, killed at the hands of those who
> > refused to admit defeat.
>
I did finally find research on Germany on "google answers"
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=255530
It's a couple pages of references, but the end result is that very few
soldiers lost their lives in Germany, and about none in Japan during the
occupations.
So, I guess there were not many who said the same thing as the people now
who are saying it about Iraq.
Al Mundy
"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:01:29 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> >news:nmb1h1h4er5nk26fi...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:17:39 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> >> <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >> There were those who said the same thing as American soldiers died
in
> >> >> the post-war rebuilding of Europe, killed at the hands of those who
> >> >> refused to admit defeat.
> >> >
> >> >I've tried finding any data on these deaths, and can't locate any. Do
you
> >> >happen to have any information as to how many lives were lost during
the
> >> >occupation of any country after WWII?
> >> >
> >> >I did find some referring to Japan:
> >> >http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5810§ionID=44
> >>
> >> Maybe the key is the nukes.
> >
> >We still have them, don't we?
>
then I guess it wasn't the nukes.
TLG
<bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>TLG wrote:
>> There were those who said the same thing as American soldiers died in
>> the post-war rebuilding of Europe, killed at the hands of those who
>> refused to admit defeat.
>
>I've tried finding any data on these deaths, and can't locate any. Do you
>happen to have any information as to how many lives were lost during the
>occupation of any country after WWII?
>
>I did find some referring to Japan:
>http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5810§ionID=44
>
>The Japanese case offers a stark comparison. In six years of occupation
>(1945-51), not a single member of the occupying forces was killed and issues
>of security were quickly turned over to Japanese police
I didn't say anything about Japan. Nice attempt at diversion, though.
>So, if you have some data on how many troops we lost in the occupation, I
>would be most interested.
I have no exact figures (and you're not worth the time to go digging
any up, even if the military ever released them), only recorded
accounts that they happened. See below.
>> Your impatience and short-sightedness are nothing new.
>
>And your willingness to use data of which you have no proof isn't very new
>either.......
Tsk, tsk. Another lie.
As for making statements without proof, most of the Lefties in here do
it all the time. For some, a simple "sounds like something Dubya
would do" (and that is a direct quote) is sufficient. Such is the
lifeblood of the liberal.
In any case:
"In April 1945, the war in Europe was near its end. Allied commanders,
however, feared German SS and other hardcore elements in the Nazi
regime would not surrender but, instead, continue to tenaciously
resist while retreating to the mountains of Bavaria and Austria - an
alpine festung [fortress]. How long these 'werewolves' might hold out
was anyone’s guess.
"The resistance in Bavaria was intense, and American units suffered
more casualties in April 1945 than they had previously. Large numbers
of civilians and combatants needlessly lost their lives in this
hopeless Nazi last-ditch effort.
"In 1947, American soldiers were attacked, sometimes killed, and Army
facilities sabotaged or attacked. Part of the resistance was caused by
diehard elements who stuck it out in frustration over the
deteriorating economy and the large number of German women who were
involved with American GIs."
-- from 'Endkampf: Soldiers, Civilians,and the Death of the Third
Reich' by Stephen Fritz
"[The town of] Cham was in a hell of a shape at the time we took it
over: 18,000 PW's in a camp you could smell from five miles down wind:
with 80 Indian labor troops--British subjects!--as PW's sitting in the
middle of the stew; open latrines running all over when it rained--and
it was usually raining; everyone lousy and typhus at the epidemic
stage; food all eaten up on the day the artillery moved in and no more
could be obtained. Add to this a bunch of Bulgarian diplomats and
another bunch of Japs; a hospital full of survivors of Buchenwald; two
Kraut military hospitals full of Wermacht wounded. You can see why
Col. Davis was down at XII Corps HQ beating on desks to get food and
medical supplies.
"It took some little time after VE-Day to satisfy the Germans that
there was no use trying to fight us. As the organized combat
imperceptibly petered out in the last few days before the cease-fire
order, so sniping and other types of irregular warfare dragged on into
the days of Peace in Europe."
--The XII Corps History "Occupation Period" May 9, 1945 to October 27,
1945
And I didn't say there were mass American casualties. I said
casualties occurred, and they did. And some folks back home wanted
our troops out of there immediately, with a "Let the Krauts fend for
themselves" mentality. Folks like you.
And we'll all be sure to put your every statement and reference under
the microscope from here on out.
Al Mundy
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:17:39 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> <bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>TLG wrote:
>
> >> There were those who said the same thing as American soldiers died in
> >> the post-war rebuilding of Europe, killed at the hands of those who
> >> refused to admit defeat.
> >
> >I've tried finding any data on these deaths, and can't locate any. Do you
> >happen to have any information as to how many lives were lost during the
> >occupation of any country after WWII?
> >
> >I did find some referring to Japan:
>
> >http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5810§ionID=44
> >
> >The Japanese case offers a stark comparison. In six years of occupation
> >(1945-51), not a single member of the occupying forces was killed and
issues
> >of security were quickly turned over to Japanese police
>
>
> I didn't say anything about Japan. Nice attempt at diversion, though.
Not at all. It WAS an occupation. It just happened to be the first
references I could find.
Um, the war wasn't over until May 7th. So you're talking about people dying
DURING THE WAR.
>
> "In 1947, American soldiers were attacked, sometimes killed, and Army
> facilities sabotaged or attacked. Part of the resistance was caused by
> diehard elements who stuck it out in frustration over the
> deteriorating economy and the large number of German women who were
> involved with American GIs."
Not to mention the German women who were raped by American GI's.
> -- from 'Endkampf: Soldiers, Civilians,and the Death of the Third
> Reich' by Stephen Fritz
>
>
>
> "[The town of] Cham was in a hell of a shape at the time we took it
> over: 18,000 PW's in a camp you could smell from five miles down wind:
> with 80 Indian labor troops--British subjects!--as PW's sitting in the
> middle of the stew; open latrines running all over when it rained--and
> it was usually raining; everyone lousy and typhus at the epidemic
> stage; food all eaten up on the day the artillery moved in and no more
> could be obtained. Add to this a bunch of Bulgarian diplomats and
> another bunch of Japs; a hospital full of survivors of Buchenwald; two
> Kraut military hospitals full of Wermacht wounded. You can see why
> Col. Davis was down at XII Corps HQ beating on desks to get food and
> medical supplies.
>
> "It took some little time after VE-Day to satisfy the Germans that
> there was no use trying to fight us. As the organized combat
> imperceptibly petered out in the last few days before the cease-fire
> order, so sniping and other types of irregular warfare dragged on into
> the days of Peace in Europe."
>
> --The XII Corps History "Occupation Period" May 9, 1945 to October 27,
> 1945
Taken direct from a republican rag, I see. If you go to the actual work
cited
http://www.usarmygermany.com/Units/Occupation/USAREUR_XII%20Corps.htm#Histor
y
In fact, part of your cite is included in this very section:
"Krauts are always either at your throat or at your feet," observed one of
the junior officers in the corps headquarters, "never anything in between.
If they can't fight you, they want to lick your boots. . ."
It took some little time after VE-Day to satisfy the Germans that there was
no use trying to fight us. As the organized combat imperceptibly petered out
in the last few days before the cease-fire order, so sniping and other types
of irregular warfare dragged on into the days of Peace in Europe. Selections
from the Corps Intelligence Summaries and Periodic Reports will demonstrate
this beyond argument:
"21 May. Period was generally quiet except for a few scattered incidents. At
0300 hrs this morning, trucks belonging to the 410th FA Gp were fired on
just South of Grafenau. Fire was returned and one German killed. Civ
reported six armed SS troops in woods N of Renstein vic at 2000 last night.
Civ reported five armed enemy soldiers in woods S of Chocholatalhota toward
Husinec. . . The 26th Inf Div reported one boy, civilian, was killed by a
minefield vic Kohlgruben . . . . The 90th Inf Div reports a sharp increase
in the sabotage of communications during the night. Three telephone poles
were chopped down vic (P272176) and wire was cut vic (P290048) (P215145) and
(U365930) . . . There were two reports of sniping during period. Personnel
of the 27th AAA Gp were fired on from the woods near Drachelsried yesterday
morning. Appropriate action was taken but snipers had fled. A party of six U
S officers were fired on vic Konusin last night. One officer was reported
wounded. Civilians reported 22 May that an organized group of armed German
soldiers is in Frymburk. . . 25 May. During period enemy activity consisted
of cutting field wire four times vic (06071). Patrol investigating incident
at present. 90th Inf Div: Polish and civilian informants reported 21 SS trs,
armed with machine pistols ("burp" guns) vic Zfitiarn; investigation of
report resulted in wounding of one SS trooper, while remainder fled into
woods in the area; investigation continuing. 26 May. 4th Armd Div: Civilian
reports approximately 200 SS troops vic (0175735) hiding in woods during day
time and enter towns that vicinity at night to loot. Other units have
nothing to report . . . . 28 May. 90th Div: Fire at Chemical Warfare Dump,
vic Grafenwohr reported afternoon 28 May. Fire completely under control by
1800B. Exact cause of fire undetermined, though two German youths
apprehended, who stated they were removing tar strips from gas crates for
use in patching up homes. Approximately 11 civilians in area being held for
investigation by CIC. Civilian reported four SS troops, armed with rifles,
vic wood at Grafenkirchen. Informant further states woman civilian, by name
of Hopfl, house No. 45, Grafenkirchen, carries food to the SS troops. 31
May. Three boys dynamited a part of a bridge vic Hekanagger in an attempt to
blow the bridge this morning. Boys were approximately 12 years old. Leader
was Robert Weigel, Hitler Jugend. . . 1 June. A single SS soldier was shot
vic Maxhutte when he attempted attack on a guard who was searching his coat
for identification papers. CIC reported fo arrests during period, including
one Karl Bergen admitted Gestapo agent. . . 7 June. There were three cases
of wire cutting in Regensburg yesterday and two instances of wire cutting
vic (0250432) by children ranging in age from six to fourteen. Oldest was a
Hitler Jugend. . . 11 June. In Rottenburg typewritten notices have been
appearing on buildings, stating. "Long live the Fuhrer! Heil Hitler! Long
Live the Great Germany! Young Nazi Awakening." Investigation pending . . .
18 June. Single report of communications wire being cut vic Neustadt on 18
June being investigated. Cub pilot discovered bullet hole in plane after
hearing shot as he flew over Hurschau area last week. . . Investigation of
murder of Burgomeister, Wilhelm Adhoch, Refthal on 12 June, indicates he was
killed be unknown Polish person or persons in retaliation for the beating
and injuring of a Polish boy on 11 June . . ."
As the summer wore on, incidents decreased and so did any evidences of
formal organization for guerrilla activities. There were, it seemed, no more
"Werewolves."
Finally, firearms of U S issue were required to be carried only while on
duty or on other similiar occasions. Some members of the Corps continued to
carry guns, especially when coming back from a late party through the dark
winding streets of the silent stone towns of Bavaria, and stated their
continuing opinion that Germany was still "Injun Country". But in general
throughout the latter phases of XII Corps' occupancy it seemed to be always
in some other corps area that the decapitating wire was found; always
somewhere else that the body was fished out of the river.* It looked as if
the Germans had been so thoroughly licked that they were entirely in a mood
to be at their conquerors' feet, rather than at their conquerors' throats.
--- gee, carring firearms on their way back from a party. Sounds a lot like
Iraq, doesn't it? NOT! --------
"The situation as reported from Kreis Vilsbiberg was typical of the entire
Corps area during the period: 'In general the conduct of the civil
population has been satisfactory. Transient Germans and DP's have caused
some disorder and unrest by plundering and robbing. Occasionally a firearm
is displayed or used to terrorize. A small force of troops is held in
reserve and is dispatched to the locality as soon as these incidents are
reported.' In areas where frequent acts of violence occurred the MG
officials applied to the nearest tactical troops commander for permission to
arm civilian police with rifles. These applications were approved when the
necessity was apparent.
-
A certain amount of celebration was bound to take place. And also a certain
amount of damned foolishness. The U S military hospitals were no longer
taking battle casualties, but besides injuries incurred through the normal
occupational hazards of, well, occupational duties, the number of victims of
jeep accidents began to mount to alarming totals, and more and more
Americans were carried into the operating rooms of the 101st Evac, 16th F
Hosp, and others in the area, suffering from gunshot wounds as a result of
careless handling of German trophy weapons. So many GI's and officers shot
themselves or their best friends with P-38's, Walther .32's, and the like,
that Third Army issued the previously mentioned order against carrying
around such foreign booby-traps. Theoretically they were all deposited with
the appropriate supply officer.
-------- In short, you should read your cites before using
them. ----------------
>
>
>
> And I didn't say there were mass American casualties. I said
> casualties occurred, and they did. And some folks back home wanted
> our troops out of there immediately, with a "Let the Krauts fend for
> themselves" mentality. Folks like you.
From the references I had cited in another post in this thread, most of the
attacks on Americans were attributed not to insurgents, but to Germans angry
at the behavior (rapes, thefts, etc) of the occupiers. That was the reason
for the non-fraternization rules during that era. From one reference I read
it was clear that there were more court martials of american troops going on
than attacks. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Occ-GY/ch18.htm#b2
(this is a document of 500 pages)
From the same cite: , ch19
Except for black marketeering, some thefts of food and firewood, and petty
violations of military government ordinances, the German civilian crime rate
was low, sometimes almost disconcertingly low for the Army agencies charged
with ferreting out and suppressing resistance. In October, after five months
of occupation, Seventh Army G-2 believed Germany to be a "simmering cauldron
of unrest and discontent" and claimed to have detected a "mounting
audaciousness in the German population"; but as concrete evidence G-2 could
only cite some illicit traffic in interzonal mail (then still prohibited), a
"strongly worded" Werwolf threat to one military government officer in the
Western Military District, and a protest against denazification from the
Evangelical Church of Wuerttemberg. Patrols occasionally found decapitation
wires stretched across roads, ineptly it would seem, since no deaths or
injuries resulted from them. Military government public safety officers from
scattered locations reported various anti-occupation leaflets and posters,
some threats against German girls who associated with US soldiers, and
isolated attacks on soldiers. Although not a single case was confirmed,
possibly the most talked about crimes against the occupation were the
alleged castrations of US soldiers by German civilians. When the commanding
officer of Detachment E3B2, in Erbach, Hesse, was asked to investigate one
such rumor, he reported that not only had there been no castration but that
there had not been a single attack on US military personnel in over four
months of occupation
--NOT A SINGLE ATTACK IN FOUR MONTHS OF OCCUPATION-------------
Most of the "resistance" ended up being really nasty, like sugar in gas
tanks, stolen food, and other vandalism. They did manage to kill a Mayor at
one point. Considering we were occupying a country of starving people,
that's not bad.
All in all, I'd say it's so much different than Iraq that your fears are
groundless.
By the way. "Folks like me" (well, actually, I was one) also stopped us from
wasting any more lives in Vietnam. Or do you still believe in the "domino
theory". Oh wait, I guess that's what Bush thinks, isn't it? If we get one
democracy, the others will follow? Too bad we're getting a theocracy instea
d........
Al Mundy
"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:36:51 GMT, "Al Mundy"
So, were they worried if they misbehaved that we would pull our occupation
out and drop a few more?
Al Mundy
"Spike" <sp...@spike.spike> wrote in message
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:02:52 GMT, "Al Mundy"
> pretty intimidating sight. I was thinking more along the lines of they
> saw the extent of our determination to end the war. That we'd stop at
> nothing including nukes, basically.
Who knows? Since I wasn't even a glimmer then, I can't say. But it's odd
that according to the reports I read, there really wasn't much resistance in
Germany either. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say insurgent
resistance has a lot to do with the mindset of the country before the
defeat. Since Germany and Japan put so much of their national "identity"
into the war, to then lose is a crushing blow to the nationalistic pride.
With Iraq, with 10 years of sanctions, the pot has been boiling all this
time. I'm sure everytime there was a shortage of something, the US and
sanctions got blamed. To finally be invaded for no reason after the
sanctions just make the Iraqis want to lash out at the US. Especially with
all the dreams of utilities, food, water, which are not coming true.
They're suffering from a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss",
except the new bosses are Christians picking on Muslims...and that would
allow for the pro-Iranian mindset developing also, since we haven't given
them anything we promised. Just like Russian hell*
* Russian and American are before the devil and offered a choice between
going to American hell or Russian hell.
"What's the difference?" None, really, says the devil. In each you have to
eat shit three times a day.
two months later they meet again, and the American is complaining. the
Russian says, "oh, it's not too bad in the Russian side. The shit deliveries
are never on time, and there's never enough to feed everyone, and the
leaders take more than their share, so we really seldom have to eat any".
TLG
<bernie_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>-------- In short, you should read your cites before using
>them. ----------------
I did, thanks, and they proved my point. I didn't pull the fact of
the American occupation casualties out of thin air, as you insinuated.
I've heard about them since way back in high school -- I just never
had a dweeb fixate on 'em like this before.
Isn't Google wonderful? That ol' copy and paste after searching on a
word or two can make even a guy like you look like he knows what he's
talking about.