Freemasonry = Anti-Christ ?

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Mark Millar

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Apr 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/13/98
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Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the
> >->> RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
> >->> fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
> >->> Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.
>
> He claims to be a Catholic and a mason. If he can't be loyal to his
> profession faith wonder why one should think he would be loyal to
> freemaosnry? If he thinks the Pope is in error, why is he still a
> Catholic?

Actually, I don't this has anything to do with loyalty. I am a catholic
currently seeking to be a freemason and have strong feelings on the
subject. There are a great many problems I have with the catholic
church, but I chose to remain a catholic due to belief in God and
Christianity and a respect for my family and social commitments. What
attracts me to masonry is the non-sectarian nature of the organisation
in a country (Scotland) which has had tremendous religious propblems
among the populace. The basic christian ideals of fellowship and charity
which masonry promotes are exactly what I was raised to believe as a
catholic. The historical gulf between the church and the lodge is
nothing more than Rome seeing a threat to their financial and political
interests. I mean this as no slight to catholicism, but the notion of
freemasonry as evil is ludicrous. An organisation is only the sum of
many parts and the masons I've met are generally very nice people. It's
a little too easy to adopt the adolescent, paranoid "they" philosophy.

No, he chooses to ignore his Cathlic faith in order to be a mason.
Many, if not most, masons will do this, such is the evil nature of the
masonic religion.

What aspect of catholicism exactly is this man ignoring? The teachings
of Christ or a Papal decree? He sounds perfectly reasonable to me. The
one change I will consider is whether I should still receive Holy
Communion or not so long as the Papal Bull exists.

A question I'd like to ask you is why you have such strong feelings on
the subject. I'd like to ask all the anti-masons to reply to this. What
exactly possesses you to spend so much time on a newsgroup for people
you obviously hate so much?

Mark Millar

K J

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to soc.cult...@latrobe.edu.au, alt.relig...@latrobe.edu.au

i have read an islamic prophecy that states that
the anti-christ will be something/someone with one eye,
and it will show its self as good when in fact it is evil.

many people feel this anti-christ to be the freemasons.

please enlighten.

.........................
cs00...@latrobe.edu.au
Latrobe Freemasons Unite!
.........................

ri...@lcc.net

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

In article <35332976...@latrobe.edu.au>,

There are many prophecies regarding the anti-Christ. As I am not familiar
with this one, I can not comment on it. I wil tell you that I have been a
practicing Catholic for many years as well as a Freemason. I have found
nothing in Freemasonry which conflicts with my faith and practice. Indeed,
Freemasonry teaches me to be true to my own faith while respecting others. I
have also studied the Holy Qu'ran, and have not run across this particular
passage yet. I guess this could become another popular argument for
anti-Masonic factions as well.

Before we get a large ammount of flaming, I should state that although Muslims
do not believe that Christ (they call him Isa.) is the Son of God, they do
believe Him to be a major prophet that preceeded Mohammed (Peace be with Him)
They also believe that Jesus (Isa) will return to the Earth on Judgement
Day.

I hope this satisfies your questiion.

Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, Texas

remove the x's to reply

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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kway...@iamericaxx.net

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
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-- On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:08:00 -0600, ri...@lcc.net scribbled:

snip

I've read many posts showing that the Catholic stand on masonry is
anti-masonry yet the mason claims that masons teachs him to be true to
his faith....if this is true then he can't be true to his faith and be
a mason?

>->There are many prophecies regarding the anti-Christ. As I am not familiar
>->with this one, I can not comment on it. I wil tell you that I have been a
>->practicing Catholic for many years as well as a Freemason. I have found
>->nothing in Freemasonry which conflicts with my faith and practice. Indeed,
>->Freemasonry teaches me to be true to my own faith while respecting others. I
>->have also studied the Holy Qu'ran, and have not run across this particular
>->passage yet. I guess this could become another popular argument for
>->anti-Masonic factions as well.
>->
>->Before we get a large ammount of flaming, I should state that although Muslims
>->do not believe that Christ (they call him Isa.) is the Son of God, they do
>->believe Him to be a major prophet that preceeded Mohammed (Peace be with Him)
>-> They also believe that Jesus (Isa) will return to the Earth on Judgement
>->Day.
>->
>->I hope this satisfies your questiion.
>->
>->Richard Jackson, PM
>->Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
>->Corrigan, Texas
>->
>->remove the x's to reply
>->
>->-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>->http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

--
Xkwa...@XiamericaX.net. (remove all the "x"s)
tagline: DISHONESTY is a trademark of freemasonry!

W T Edwards

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

Ken,
This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the

RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.

Bill Edwards PM
Riverdale Lodge #709
Riverdale, Ga.
(just south of Atlanta)

ri...@lcc.net

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

In article <3533743f...@news.mindspring.com>,

wted...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Ken,
> This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
> rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
> Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
> that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
> perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
> are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the
> RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
> fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
> Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.
>
> Bill Edwards PM
> Riverdale Lodge #709
> Riverdale, Ga.
> (just south of Atlanta)
>

Brother Edwards,

I see by your post that Ken must have replied something about my being
Catholic and a Mason. My faith in God and being true to that faith is
unaffected by my denomination of choice. That faith is internal in each
person. Perhaps I am not following the wishes and decrees of the Church. I
do not deny that I do not agree with Rome's stand on Freemasonry. This is a
personal matter between me, my God, and my church. Since I am a Mason, I do
not take communion in Church. While this is a burden, it is not as far as I
can tell necessary to be saved. If I remember correctly, the thief who was
being crucified next to Christ was saved by his faith alone, and in an instant
regardless of his former sins. The centurion who approached Jesus to heal his
servant had faith in the power of Christ as well. Although a pagan, did he
not believe?

I do not believe my being a Freemason proves the superiority of Masonry over
anything. I am simply one poor human being who strives to serve my Brothers
in the Fraternity after meeting my obligations to my God, my country, my
neighbors, and myself. It is simply that I believe it is what is inside a man
that qualifies him to be made a Mason. So it is, I believe, the internal
rather than external that identifies a man's relationship with his God. My
God is the God of Abraham, the same One who is all powerful and all knowing.
The Omnipotent Father who sent his only Son to the Earth to save us from our
sins. I have always felt that the Catholic Church opposed Freemasonry for two
reasons. One you mentioned. The other is that Masons will not disclose the
secrets of or hold Masonic Communication with anyone other than another
Brother Mason in good standing. This grates on the sacrament of confession.
I have been told by more than one priest that my conscience was the best guide
as to the nature of sin in Freemasonry. If I found nothing which conflicted
with my faith, there was no sin. Of course, going against the edicts of Rome
by belonging also places me in a state of sin and denies me communion. To
make matters more complicated, a person who was a Mason I know inquired about
converting to Catholism. He asked the local priest about the matter, who
carried it to the Bishop. The Bishop replied that Masonic membership did not
disqualify a man from converting to Catholicism. I shall continue to remain a
Mason until I personally find reason to believe Freemasonry is contrary to my
faith in Christ.

Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, Texas

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

Daniel Mc Kenzie

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

Brother Edwards,

As a Catholic and a Mason, I must confirm that what you say about the Church
is true. Catholic policy makers have always had a limited sense of humor
about differing views of faith and practice.

In regards to OFLF"s original post (which I read only in your reply, thanks
to filters!), it seems somehow inappropriate for anyone who will not provide
any info on his own faith and practice to criticize the faith and practice
of another in a public forum. Unfortunately, this petty self-righteousness
is par for the course for Mr. Mitchell, and the main reason why he and his
many aliases are in kill files everywhere.

Dan McKenzie, FC
Harmony Lodge #18 F&AM
GL of NJ

W T Edwards wrote in message <3533743f...@news.mindspring.com>...


>Ken,
> This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
>rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
>Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
>that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
>perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
>are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the
>RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
>fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
>Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.
>
>Bill Edwards PM
>Riverdale Lodge #709
>Riverdale, Ga.
>(just south of Atlanta)
>

W T Edwards

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

Brother Daniel,
I have studied a little of the Catholic philosophy, not enough
to be proficient at it, but enough to be able to determine this much
at least. Thanks for the kind words and the insight to know that it
was not intended to be offensive.

Bill Edwards PM
Riverdale Lodge #709
Riverdale, Ga.
(just south of Atlanta)

W T Edwards

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

ri...@lcc.net wrote:

>> Ken,
>> This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
>> rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
>> Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
>> that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
>> perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
>> are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the
>> RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
>> fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
>> Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.
>>
>> Bill Edwards PM
>> Riverdale Lodge #709
>> Riverdale, Ga.
>> (just south of Atlanta)
>>
>

>Brother Edwards,
>
>
>
>I do not believe my being a Freemason proves the superiority of Masonry over
>anything.

>
>Richard Jackson, PM
>Corrigan Lodge #1103 AF&AM
>Corrigan, Texas
>

>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Brother Richard,
Perhaps I should have said "This proves the superiority of the
Masonic Philosophy". It would have been more appropriate.

Bill Maddox

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to K J

K J wrote:
>
> i have read an islamic prophecy that states that
> the anti-christ will be something/someone with one eye,
> and it will show its self as good when in fact it is evil.

Can you give the reference in the Koran?

Well - let's see what the Southern Baptist Convention STUDY ON
FREEMASONRY states:

----------------------------------

The "All-Seeing Eye" is well known as a Masonic symbol for God. The
psalmist writes, "The eye of the Lord is on those who fear Him" (Ps.
33:18, NASB). Proverbs 15:3 (NASB) states, "The eyes of the Lord [YHWH]
are in every place, Watching the evil and the good." This reminds the
Mason that his actions do not go unnoticed by God. Masonry critics
remind us that the All-Seeing Eye was also the Egyptian symbol for
Osiris. Some Masons cite this use of the symbol, but others cite the
biblical foundation of the All-Seeing Eye. It is uncertain when the
All-Seeing Eye became a Masonic symbol. The meaning behind the
All-Seeing Eye is analogous to the rainbow today. Followers of the New
Age Movement have begun using the rainbow as one of their symbols. The
Bible also points to the rainbow as a sign of God's covenant with Noah
after the flood (Gen. 9:8-17). Symbols can mean different things to
different people.

----------skipping to later in the text--------------

One critic discusses the all-seeing eye above the pyramid on the back of
$1 Federal Reserve Notes. Referring to Masonic writers Carl Claudy,
Albert Mackey, Manly P. Hall, Rex Hutchens, and Albert Pike, he
concludes, without offering any specific documentation, that "some of
these writers have reported that the sun-god was Lucifer. So, the
all-seeing eye is a symbol of Lucifer, the all-seeing god of the
universe."

In response to this charge, the reader is reminded that Lucifer is a
created being and not equal to God. The Bible, which must be the only
source for our understanding about Lucifer, does not speak of Lucifer as
having an all-seeing eye. Only God is described as having this
characteristic. God, not Lucifer, sees all things. Job 28:24 (NASB)
states, "For He [God] looks to the ends of the earth, And sees
everything under the heavens." Job 34:21 (NASB) says, "For His eyes are
upon the ways of a man, And he sees all his steps."

-----------------


>
> many people feel this anti-christ to be the freemasons.

If you mean many as in more than half - I would disagree with this
statement.

I always thought the anti-christ was to be a specific man, not a
generalized member of a fraternity.

& I would not look to Islamic Texts for defining my beliefs as a
Christian.

Hope this Helps - Bill Maddox

Jazz

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Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

K J wrote:
>
> i have read an islamic prophecy that states that
> the anti-christ will be something/someone with one eye,
> and it will show its self as good when in fact it is evil.
>
> many people feel this anti-christ to be the freemasons.
>
> please enlighten.
>
> .........................
> cs00...@latrobe.edu.au
> Latrobe Freemasons Unite!
> .........................
Should you choose to study freemasonry and its history (library abounds
with books on the subject), you shall become enlightened and find that
the "many people" to whom you allude have not become so enlightened. Who
knows the source of such rubbish or the motivation of the hate-mongerers
who would spread such illiterate prejudices?
--
-John
http://home1.gte.net/sawyerj/index.html
ICQ: 8744633

kway...@iamericaxx.net

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

-- On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:53:49 -0600, ri...@lcc.net scribbled:

snip

>->Brother Edwards,
>->
>->I see by your post that Ken must have replied something about my being
>->Catholic and a Mason. My faith in God and being true to that faith is
>->unaffected by my denomination of choice. That faith is internal in each
>->person. Perhaps I am not following the wishes and decrees of the Church. I
>->do not deny that I do not agree with Rome's stand on Freemasonry. This is a
>->personal matter between me, my God, and my church. Since I am a Mason, I do
>->not take communion in Church. While this is a burden, it is not as far as I
>->can tell necessary to be saved. If I remember correctly, the thief who was
>->being crucified next to Christ was saved by his faith alone, and in an instant
>->regardless of his former sins. The centurion who approached Jesus to heal his
>->servant had faith in the power of Christ as well. Although a pagan, did he
>->not believe?

Newcomers, here is what he said in an earlier post...quote "There are


many prophecies regarding the anti-Christ. As I am not familiar

with this one, I can not comment on it. I wil tell you that I have
been a

practicing Catholic for many years as well as a Freemason. I have
found

nothing in Freemasonry which conflicts with my faith and practice.
Indeed,

Freemasonry teaches me to be true to my own faith while respecting
others. I

have also studied the Holy Qu'ran, and have not run across this
particular

passage yet. I guess this could become another popular argument for

anti-Masonic factions as well." end quote.

Note how he says he is a practicing Catholic. That means he is of
the Catholic faith, right? You would think so wouldn't you? Of
course. Then he continues to say that Freemasonry teaches him to be
true to his own faith....which is what? The Catholic faith, of
course. Now, when it is pointed out that his Catholic faith
conflicts with masonry, the typical masonic reply is issued.
Suddenly freemasonry must no longer be teaching him to be true to his
Catholic faith since his Catholic faith conflicts with masonry.
Don't let these guys hoodwink you.....they are masons first and then
what else secondly, that is made clear by posts such as his. If
one's "faith" conflicts with masonry...then masonry wins out. If
this guy truly followed his announced faith, he wouldn't be in
masonry. If masonry truly taught the mason to follow the mason's
faith, he wouldn't be a mason. However he is a mason despite the
teaching of his faith. He has simply chosen to accept the teachings
of the masonic religion over those of his Catholic religion. Such
is the case many times in masonry. Now you see why he, and others,
attack with such venom those who dare to point out the conflicts
between what masons and masonry claims and the truth.


>->I do not believe my being a Freemason proves the superiority of Masonry over
>->anything. I am simply one poor human being who strives to serve my Brothers
>->in the Fraternity after meeting my obligations to my God, my country, my
>->neighbors, and myself. It is simply that I believe it is what is inside a man

Where is his obligations to his faith? Where is the teachings of
masonry...the teachings that the mason must be true to his faith?
Hmmm, when it is pointed out that masonry conflicts with his faith of
choice...suddenly that masonic teaching is ignored. If he can't be
honest and true to his Catholic religion, wonder why we should think
he would be true and honest about anything else?


>->that qualifies him to be made a Mason. So it is, I believe, the internal
>->rather than external that identifies a man's relationship with his God. My

In that case he should have no problem with women becoming masons.
Wonder why he belongs to a group that is opposite his beliefs?
Wonder why he supports a group that rejects women simply because they
are externally different?

>->God is the God of Abraham, the same One who is all powerful and all knowing.
>->The Omnipotent Father who sent his only Son to the Earth to save us from our
>->sins. I have always felt that the Catholic Church opposed Freemasonry for two
>->reasons. One you mentioned. The other is that Masons will not disclose the
>->secrets of or hold Masonic Communication with anyone other than another
>->Brother Mason in good standing. This grates on the sacrament of confession.

Interesting that a mason cannot discuss his problems (if it relates to
a masonic issue) with his priest or even the Pope unless they are also
a mason. Picture that, a Catholic mason cannot openly and honestly
discuss everything with what they feel is God's leader on earth, the
Pope simply because the Pope isn't a mason. This mason has allowed
masonry to put a wall between him and his Catholic faith however I
doubt that he is able to see it....masonry is quite seductive and the
hoodwinking quite strong.


>->I have been told by more than one priest that my conscience was the best guide
>->as to the nature of sin in Freemasonry. If I found nothing which conflicted
>->with my faith, there was no sin. Of course, going against the edicts of Rome
>->by belonging also places me in a state of sin and denies me communion. To
>->make matters more complicated, a person who was a Mason I know inquired about
>->converting to Catholism. He asked the local priest about the matter, who
>->carried it to the Bishop. The Bishop replied that Masonic membership did not
>->disqualify a man from converting to Catholicism. I shall continue to remain a
>->Mason until I personally find reason to believe Freemasonry is contrary to my
>->faith in Christ.

Keeping looking and one will find a priest or preacher that will tell
you what you want to hear.
--
Xkw...@Xiamerica.net. (remove all the "x"s)
--
tagline: DISHONESTY, a trademark of freemasonry!

kway...@iamericaxx.net

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

-- On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:53:49 -0600, ri...@lcc.net scribbled:

>->In article <3533743f...@news.mindspring.com>,
>-> wted...@mindspring.com wrote:
>->>
>->> Ken,
>->> This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
>->> rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
>->> Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
>->> that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
>->> perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
>->> are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the


>->> RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
>->> fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
>->> Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.

He claims to be a Catholic and a mason. If he can't be loyal to his
profession faith wonder why one should think he would be loyal to
freemaosnry? If he thinks the Pope is in error, why is he still a

Catholic? No, he chooses to ignore his Cathlic faith in order to


be a mason. Many, if not most, masons will do this, such is the evil
nature of the masonic religion.

kway...@iamericaxx.net

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

-- On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:51:48 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
Edwards) scribbled:

Yep, the masonic religion feels it is superior to all other religions
and that only in masonry can the mason truly find the "light". Only
masonry has the "truth"....... Sadly so many men have been
hoodwinked into this evil belief.

>->Ken,
>-> This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
>->rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
>->Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
>->that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
>->perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
>->are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the
>->RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
>->fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
>->Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.

>->
>->Bill Edwards PM
>->Riverdale Lodge #709
>->Riverdale, Ga.
>->(just south of Atlanta)
>->
>-> kway...@iamericaXX.net wrote:
>->
>->>-- On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:08:00 -0600, ri...@lcc.net scribbled:
>->>
>->>snip
>->>
>->>I've read many posts showing that the Catholic stand on masonry is
>->>anti-masonry yet the mason claims that masons teachs him to be true to
>->>his faith....if this is true then he can't be true to his faith and be
>->>a mason?
>->>
>->>>->There are many prophecies regarding the anti-Christ. As I am not familiar
>->>>->with this one, I can not comment on it. I wil tell you that I have been a
>->>>->practicing Catholic for many years as well as a Freemason. I have found
>->>>->nothing in Freemasonry which conflicts with my faith and practice. Indeed,
>->>>->Freemasonry teaches me to be true to my own faith while respecting others. I
>->>>->have also studied the Holy Qu'ran, and have not run across this particular
>->>>->passage yet. I guess this could become another popular argument for
>->>>->anti-Masonic factions as well.


>->>>->
>->>>->Before we get a large ammount of flaming, I should state that although Muslims

>->>>->do not believe that Christ (they call him Isa.) is the Son of God, they do
>->>>->believe Him to be a major prophet that preceeded Mohammed (Peace be with Him)
>->>>-> They also believe that Jesus (Isa) will return to the Earth on Judgement
>->>>->Day.
>->>>->


>->>>->I hope this satisfies your questiion.
>->>>->
>->>>->Richard Jackson, PM

>->>>->Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
>->>>->Corrigan, Texas


>->>>->
>->>>->remove the x's to reply
>->>>->

>->>>->-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>->>>->http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>->>
>->>--
>->>Xkwa...@XiamericaX.net. (remove all the "x"s)
>->>tagline: DISHONESTY is a trademark of freemasonry!

Michael Higgins

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

K J wrote:
>
> i have read an islamic prophecy that states that
> the anti-christ will be something/someone with one eye,
> and it will show its self as good when in fact it is evil.
>
> many people feel this anti-christ to be the freemasons.
>
> please enlighten.
>
> .........................
> cs00...@latrobe.edu.au
> Latrobe Freemasons Unite!
> .........................

Actually very few people beleive this. The beleif in the Anti-Christ is
pretty much limited to certain segments of the Christian world and is
unknown to most of the world's population.

BTW, I'd like to know why "an islamic prophecy" would concern itself
with stuff like that.

--
The old man was walking on the beach, where many starfish had washed
ashore.
He saw a little boy on the shoreline, throwing them back into the ocean.
The boy said 'They'll die if I don't get them back into the water.'
The man said 'Son, there are hundreds of starfish ashore. It's not going
to
make a difference.' The boy picked up a starfish and threw it into the
water.
He turned to the man and said, 'It made a difference to that starfish.'


CMCLNSAY90

unread,
Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

I've read many posts showing that the Catholic stand on masonry is
anti-masonry yet the mason claims that masons teachs him to be true to
his faith....if this is true then he can't be true to his faith and be
a mason?

Being both a mason and Catholic I have found that in fact the Church has no
position on Freemasonry that conflicts with membership. I believe the Vatican
II Council of the early 60's cleared this all up. Besides I have come across
many Catholics (practicing) as well as several Priests and even a Bishop who
were all Freemasons.

b man

unread,
Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

Definitely the MASONS are EVIL. Like most EVIL "THEY!" try to hide
behind a facade of benevolence. They're like child MOLESTERS who offer
unsuspecting kids CANDY, just to lull them into their PERVERTED grasp.
The SAD part is that a MAJORITY of MASONS don't know that they are part
of an evil design. They are the UNWITTING DUPES. Wake up freemasons you
are being used to prosper evil. There is an evil DESIGN to control the
WORLD via a WORLD GOVERMENT. The MASONIC influence in thid devious paln
is palinly visible on the back of our VERY own $1 BILL. The eye of
OSIRIS looks upon ILLUMINATED. The capstone is seperated from the rest
of the pyramid. Once the MASONIC plan is complete the eye will join with
the rest of the pyramid. It is interesting to note that the Great (My
Capoot!) Seal of the US was designed after the ratification of the
CONSTITUTION, i.e, Mr. Big Daddy the FED Bastard. Under the Articles of
Confederation we wouldn't have the FEDERAL BEAST and we would be closer
to our applicable government. Most of the FREAKASOIDS behind the push
for the FEDERAL system were stinkin' MASONS. The WORLD GOVERNMENT will
be a federal one.

I have the proof!

Screw the MASONS,

Sean Burden
the Town Crier

I participated in a program to test the M.A.R.C and B.E.A.S.T
technologies.
I have proof that W.W.W. = 666 in Ancient Aramaic. Not so incidentally
the two technologies were linked via computer. The mechanism to do this
on a mass basis would be done via the Internet.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/3683/cosmic13.html (MARC, BEAST,
WWW)

Author of The Sean Burden Chronicles
http://burden.home.ml.org

and

The Cosmic Conspiracy expose on the FED, IRS, UN, FEMA, PSY/ED, MILITIAS
and the connection between M.A.R.C., B.E.A.S.T. and the W.W.W.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/3683/cosmic1.html

E-mail sean....@mailexcite.com or sea...@webtv.net


Daniel Mc Kenzie

unread,
Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

Paranoid bunkum. Period.

W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
to

Ken,
To clarify my statement it would be more appropriate and
accurate to reword the first sentence in this post to read, "This
proves the superiority of the Masonic philosophy over all sectarian
rhetoric........" Now all I need from you is proof that Freemasonry
is a religion. Feel up to the challenge?

Bill Edwards PM
Riverdale Lodge #709
Riverdale, Ga.
(just south of Atlanta)

kway...@iamericaXX.net wrote:

kwa...@xiamerica.net

unread,
Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
to

-- On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:16:27 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
Edwards) scribbled:

>->Ken,
>-> To clarify my statement it would be more appropriate and
>->accurate to reword the first sentence in this post to read, "This
>->proves the superiority of the Masonic philosophy over all sectarian
>->rhetoric........" Now all I need from you is proof that Freemasonry
>->is a religion. Feel up to the challenge?

Sure, no problem....well there is a problem...post the rituals, oaths
and symbolism of the 33 degress and I'll gladly show you where masonry
is a religion......awh but you won't do that. You CAN'T honestly
discuss freemasonry....you won't put your cards on the table...you
will simply do the masonic thing and take pot shots while hiding the
things that will prove you wrong. Now, do you feel up to the
challenge of posting those rituals, oaths and symbolism so that the
light of truth can shine on them or are you going to hide behind the
built-in fail-safe designed to protect the true nature of the masonic
religion? Your turn. Just post those things and I'll be glad to
show you....you have the proof, just post it.

>->Bill Edwards PM
>->Riverdale Lodge #709
>->Riverdale, Ga.
>->(just south of Atlanta)
>->
>->kway...@iamericaXX.net wrote:
>->

>->>-- On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:51:48 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
>->>Edwards) scribbled:
>->>
>->>Yep, the masonic religion feels it is superior to all other religions
>->>and that only in masonry can the mason truly find the "light". Only
>->>masonry has the "truth"....... Sadly so many men have been
>->>hoodwinked into this evil belief.
>->>
>->>>->Ken,
>->>>-> This proves the superiority of Masonry over all sectarian
>->>>->rhetoric. The Catholic Church, and others like it, condemns
>->>>->Freemasonry because it teaches tolerance, while Freemasonry recognizes
>->>>->that no one person nor one particular faith is in possession of the
>->>>->perfect truth of God. Those who claim they have it are the ones who
>->>>->are in error. Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the
>->>>->RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
>->>>->fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
>->>>->Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.


>->>>->
>->>>->Bill Edwards PM

>->>>->Riverdale Lodge #709
>->>>->Riverdale, Ga.
>->>>->(just south of Atlanta)


>->>>->
>->>>-> kway...@iamericaXX.net wrote:
>->>>->
>->>>->

>->>


>->>--
>->>Xkw...@Xiamerica.net. (remove all the "x"s)

>->>--
>->>tagline: DISHONESTY, a trademark of freemasonry!

--
kwa...@Xiamerica.net (remove the "X")

W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

Ken,
You make the accusation that Freemasonry is a religion and as
I see it, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. You obviously have
the information you require of me, or is it a feeble attempt to get it
from me? Being a Mason, I have taken certain obligations in the name
of Almighty God not to reveal these things, by whose authority do you
ask me to break that obligation? If you intend to prosecute the
Masonic Order you need to be able to prove your case, but first you
have to validate the charges. You seem to be unaware of the fact that
we (the Masons) do not go to lodge to worship, but to learn and
fellowship with each other. If you know if another Masonic lodge that
convenes to worship, please let me know.

Bill Edwards PM
Riverdale Lodge #709
Riverdale, Ga

(just south of Atlanta)

Straw & Raz

unread,
Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

I am curious why an Islamic text would be predicting anything about and
anti-Christ, since I do not think Muslims believe in Christ in the first
place.

But then again, that's just my two cents.


Ted

kwa...@xiamerica.net

unread,
Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

-- On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:17:16 +0100, Mark Millar
<mark....@virgin.net> scribbled:

>->Besides, his faith in God has nothing to do with the


>->> >->> RULES of the Church forbiding his membership in Freemasonry, only his
>->> >->> fidelity to it. This infidelity tends to dilute the power of the
>->> >->> Church over him and THIS is the intolerable part in its eyes.
>->>

>->> He claims to be a Catholic and a mason. If he can't be loyal to his
>->> profession faith wonder why one should think he would be loyal to
>->> freemaosnry? If he thinks the Pope is in error, why is he still a
>->> Catholic?
>->
>->Actually, I don't this has anything to do with loyalty. I am a catholic

One person, a mason, posted that he was a Catholic and then said that
masonry teachs masons to be loyal or true to their faith..first.
People can put the ole masonic spin on it but it still comes out that
he isn't following neither the teaching of masonry or the Catholic
Church in being a mason. It is a clear example of how men will turn
their back on their faith and follow masonry, imo.

>->currently seeking to be a freemason and have strong feelings on the
>->subject. There are a great many problems I have with the catholic
>->church, but I chose to remain a catholic due to belief in God and
>->Christianity and a respect for my family and social commitments. What

I wouldn't belong to a faith that I didn't agree with...."family" and
"socail commitments" is a poor excuse to stay in any faith that one
disagrees with, imo. Such lack of faith results in many masons
claiming to be of the Christian faith when they clearly reject the
words of Christ.

>->attracts me to masonry is the non-sectarian nature of the organisation
>->in a country (Scotland) which has had tremendous religious propblems
>->among the populace. The basic christian ideals of fellowship and charity
>->which masonry promotes are exactly what I was raised to believe as a
>->catholic. The historical gulf between the church and the lodge is


Then you should stick around and see some of the masonic "ideals" of
fellowship. Masonry welcomes homosexuals with open arms despite the
very Bible that most that their oaths on calling such activity as an
abomination. If you want to "fellowship" with anything that comes
down the pipes, then yes masonry is the place for you. Stick
around, see the truth about masonry from the posts of masons.


>->nothing more than Rome seeing a threat to their financial and political
>->interests. I mean this as no slight to catholicism, but the notion of
>->freemasonry as evil is ludicrous. An organisation is only the sum of
>->many parts and the masons I've met are generally very nice people. It's
>->a little too easy to adopt the adolescent, paranoid "they" philosophy.

Most masons have no idea of the oath, rituals, and symbolism that is
contained via the 33 degrees. And those that are are only told of
those rituals, oaths, and symbolism when those who have already taken
them feel that the person is ready to accept them. You might ask
yourself....why do they hide those things from lesser degree masons
and why did people like Albert Pike claim "
"Masonry...conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages,
or
the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its
symbols to mislead those who deserve to be misled; to conceal the
Truth,
which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it." "


>-> No, he chooses to ignore his Cathlic faith in order to be a mason.
>->Many, if not most, masons will do this, such is the evil nature of the
>->masonic religion.
>->
>->What aspect of catholicism exactly is this man ignoring? The teachings
>->of Christ or a Papal decree? He sounds perfectly reasonable to me. The
>->one change I will consider is whether I should still receive Holy
>->Communion or not so long as the Papal Bull exists.
>->
>->A question I'd like to ask you is why you have such strong feelings on
>->the subject. I'd like to ask all the anti-masons to reply to this. What
>->exactly possesses you to spend so much time on a newsgroup for people
>->you obviously hate so much?

You are quite dishonest in your statement if you are saying that I
hate anyone ( I see that by the headers you are replying to my post so
I assume that you are accusing me of hating people). Such dishonesty
marks you as well on your way to becoming a mason.


>->Mark Millar

kwa...@xiamerica.net

unread,
Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

-- On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:58:31 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
Edwards) scribbled:

>->Ken,
>-> You make the accusation that Freemasonry is a religion and as
>->I see it, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. You obviously have

First, the statement was made that masonry isn't a religion, and going
by your post, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. Prove that it
isn't a religion.

You do agree with the other masons in their claim that masonry isn't a
religion? Then prove it. Such proof would be the revealing of the
oaths, rituals, and symbolism of masonry wouldn't it?

>->the information you require of me, or is it a feeble attempt to get it
>->from me? Being a Mason, I have taken certain obligations in the name

No, I have the rituals, oaths and symbolism. However when I post
them, masons say they aren't correct, which is just a lie on their
part in an attempt to discredit them so I ask for a mason to post
them...then it can't be discredited. However masonry has a built in
fail-safe to protect it's religious nature from non-masons and even
lesser degree masons. Only those deemed worthy to know are given the
truth about masonry's religious nature. Meanwhile we see the poor
un-informed masons blindly defending that which they do not know.

>->of Almighty God not to reveal these things, by whose authority do you
>->ask me to break that obligation? If you intend to prosecute the

You took an obligaton to El Shaddai?

You probably took the oath not knowing what you were swearing to
conceal and as such, the contract can be broken with honor. Or you
can simply change your mind as did a mason in this ng concerning his
breaking his (quote) _promise_ (end quote).


>->Masonic Order you need to be able to prove your case, but first you
>->have to validate the charges. You seem to be unaware of the fact that

No, in order to validate the masonic claim that masonry isn't a
religion, you have to prove it...that is according to your logic
above. I'm simply disagreeing with the masonic claim and wishing
masons to prove their claim. They can't do it without posting the
rituals, oaths, and symbolism. Perhaps they should cease making a
claim that they cannot prove.


>->we (the Masons) do not go to lodge to worship, but to learn and
>->fellowship with each other. If you know if another Masonic lodge that
>->convenes to worship, please let me know.

Do you disagree that your lodge was erected to "god"?

Do you disagree that the source of "light" for that lodge comes from
that "god" (by what ever name you wish to give him/her)?

Do you disagree that the same "light" is what is taught to masons
hence the supposedly claim (I say supposedly as I can't picture
certain masons here a "good" ) of making "good" men better?

W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
to

Ken,

kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:

>-- On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:58:31 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
>Edwards) scribbled:
>
>>->Ken,
>>-> You make the accusation that Freemasonry is a religion and as
>>->I see it, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. You obviously have
>
>First, the statement was made that masonry isn't a religion, and going
>by your post, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. Prove that it
>isn't a religion.
>

You can't prove a negative, Ken. That is an impossibility.

>You do agree with the other masons in their claim that masonry isn't a
>religion? Then prove it. Such proof would be the revealing of the
>oaths, rituals, and symbolism of masonry wouldn't it?

I have given you my reason why I cannot reveal them, I am bound by an
obligation, and you have no right to expect me to violate this
obligation. Should I do so, I would be an infidel, and I am not.


>
>>->the information you require of me, or is it a feeble attempt to get it
>>->from me? Being a Mason, I have taken certain obligations in the name
>
>No, I have the rituals, oaths and symbolism. However when I post
>them, masons say they aren't correct, which is just a lie on their
>part in an attempt to discredit them so I ask for a mason to post
>them...then it can't be discredited. However masonry has a built in
>fail-safe to protect it's religious nature from non-masons and even
>lesser degree masons. Only those deemed worthy to know are given the
>truth about masonry's religious nature. Meanwhile we see the poor
>un-informed masons blindly defending that which they do not know.
>
>>->of Almighty God not to reveal these things, by whose authority do you
>>->ask me to break that obligation? If you intend to prosecute the
>
>You took an obligaton to El Shaddai?

Well, let's see. The book on the altar of my lodge on which I swore
an obligation was the King James version of the Holy Bible. Are you
saying that this book calls God by the name of El Shaddai?


>
>You probably took the oath not knowing what you were swearing to
>conceal and as such, the contract can be broken with honor. Or you
>can simply change your mind as did a mason in this ng concerning his
>breaking his (quote) _promise_ (end quote).
>

Wrong. I took the oath in full knowledge that it was on this book
that I was being obligated.


>
>>->Masonic Order you need to be able to prove your case, but first you
>>->have to validate the charges. You seem to be unaware of the fact that
>
>No, in order to validate the masonic claim that masonry isn't a
>religion, you have to prove it...that is according to your logic
>above.

No Ken, that is a twist of logic. YOU have made the claim that
Masonry is a religion and that it violates the Christian moral code
and Christianity itself. If you are to make this claim viable, YOU
have to come up with something to base your charges on, something,
ANYthing, that can be substantiated. From this, then you can argue
your case, otherwise it is an assumption on your part and subject to
as much credibility as hearsay testimony in a court of law.


>
>>->we (the Masons) do not go to lodge to worship, but to learn and
>>->fellowship with each other. If you know if another Masonic lodge that
>>->convenes to worship, please let me know.
>
>Do you disagree that your lodge was erected to "god"?
>

No, I do not, for it, in its dimensions (symbolically), replicates the
Tabernacle in the Wilderness, and the Temple of Solomon, both of which
were erected to God. Since it is supposed to be a replica of these
edifices, it is only fitting that it should be erected to God.

>Do you disagree that the source of "light" for that lodge comes from
>that "god" (by what ever name you wish to give him/her)?

No I do not.


>
>Do you disagree that the same "light" is what is taught to masons
>hence the supposedly claim (I say supposedly as I can't picture
>certain masons here a "good" ) of making "good" men better?
>

For those who are prepared to receive it, certainly not..

At the next meeting at your place of worship, look around the room and
count how many Jews, Moslems, Bhuddists, Catholics, Presbyterians,
and/or any other religious denominations are present to worship along
side each other and yourself. Count them Ken and let me know.

kwa...@xiamerica.net

unread,
Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
to

-- On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:35:20 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
Edwards) scribbled:

>->Ken,
>->
>->kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:
>->
>->>-- On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:58:31 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
>->>Edwards) scribbled:
>->>
>->>>->Ken,
>->>>-> You make the accusation that Freemasonry is a religion and as
>->>>->I see it, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. You obviously have
>->>
>->>First, the statement was made that masonry isn't a religion, and going
>->>by your post, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. Prove that it
>->>isn't a religion.
>->>
>->You can't prove a negative, Ken. That is an impossibility.


Hahaha, you can't prove masonry isn't a religion, eh? Thanks for
admitting that.

Freemasonry ISN'T a group Christians should belong to. Don't ask me
to prove it, you can't prove a negative, that is an impossibility.
sez u.


>->
>->>You do agree with the other masons in their claim that masonry isn't a
>->>religion? Then prove it. Such proof would be the revealing of the
>->>oaths, rituals, and symbolism of masonry wouldn't it?
>->
>->I have given you my reason why I cannot reveal them, I am bound by an
>->obligation, and you have no right to expect me to violate this
>->obligation. Should I do so, I would be an infidel, and I am not.

So when a mason breaks his promise, he is an infidel? Let me know
because me thinks I know an infidel.

(Lurkers, see how masonry has them trapped and bound into it's grip
just like any other group commonly called a cult today, just has a bit
more spit and polish on it.)

>->>>->the information you require of me, or is it a feeble attempt to get it
>->>>->from me? Being a Mason, I have taken certain obligations in the name
>->>
>->>No, I have the rituals, oaths and symbolism. However when I post
>->>them, masons say they aren't correct, which is just a lie on their
>->>part in an attempt to discredit them so I ask for a mason to post
>->>them...then it can't be discredited. However masonry has a built in
>->>fail-safe to protect it's religious nature from non-masons and even
>->>lesser degree masons. Only those deemed worthy to know are given the
>->>truth about masonry's religious nature. Meanwhile we see the poor
>->>un-informed masons blindly defending that which they do not know.
>->>
>->>>->of Almighty God not to reveal these things, by whose authority do you
>->>>->ask me to break that obligation? If you intend to prosecute the
>->>
>->>You took an obligaton to El Shaddai?
>->
>->Well, let's see. The book on the altar of my lodge on which I swore
>->an obligation was the King James version of the Holy Bible. Are you
>->saying that this book calls God by the name of El Shaddai?

Oh well, I didn't think you would catch it.....skip it since you don't
appear to know.........

>->>You probably took the oath not knowing what you were swearing to
>->>conceal and as such, the contract can be broken with honor. Or you
>->>can simply change your mind as did a mason in this ng concerning his
>->>breaking his (quote) _promise_ (end quote).
>->>
>->Wrong. I took the oath in full knowledge that it was on this book
>->that I was being obligated.


So much for trying to have an intelligent discussion.....nothing was
siad about you know knowing which book you took the oath on but rather
what your were swearing to conceal....


>->>>->Masonic Order you need to be able to prove your case, but first you
>->>>->have to validate the charges. You seem to be unaware of the fact that
>->>
>->>No, in order to validate the masonic claim that masonry isn't a
>->>religion, you have to prove it...that is according to your logic
>->>above.
>->
>->No Ken, that is a twist of logic. YOU have made the claim that
>->Masonry is a religion and that it violates the Christian moral code
>->and Christianity itself. If you are to make this claim viable, YOU

No, masons first said that masonry isn't a religion and that it
doesn't conflict with Christianity. Ever time I post scriptures that
show that it does conflict, they say the verses are out of context and
when I ask for the verses to be put in context, they don't answer.
Shuck and jive is what I get, and you seem to be giving the same.

>->have to come up with something to base your charges on, something,
>->ANYthing, that can be substantiated. From this, then you can argue
>->your case, otherwise it is an assumption on your part and subject to
>->as much credibility as hearsay testimony in a court of law.
>->>
>->>>->we (the Masons) do not go to lodge to worship, but to learn and
>->>>->fellowship with each other. If you know if another Masonic lodge that
>->>>->convenes to worship, please let me know.
>->>
>->>Do you disagree that your lodge was erected to "god"?
>->>
>->No, I do not, for it, in its dimensions (symbolically), replicates the
>->Tabernacle in the Wilderness, and the Temple of Solomon, both of which
>->were erected to God. Since it is supposed to be a replica of these
>->edifices, it is only fitting that it should be erected to God.
>->
>->>Do you disagree that the source of "light" for that lodge comes from
>->>that "god" (by what ever name you wish to give him/her)?
>->
>->No I do not.
>->>
>->>Do you disagree that the same "light" is what is taught to masons
>->>hence the supposedly claim (I say supposedly as I can't picture
>->>certain masons here a "good" ) of making "good" men better?
>->>
>->For those who are prepared to receive it, certainly not..

So the lodge is erected to "god", the light that masonry supposedly
teachs it's members comes from "god", and yet gathering in this house
erected to "god" and teaching the lessons of that "god" isn't a
religion.......want to buy a real nice bridge in Brooklyn? Or a nice
sandy lot in the desert....?


>->At the next meeting at your place of worship, look around the room and
>->count how many Jews, Moslems, Bhuddists, Catholics, Presbyterians,
>->and/or any other religious denominations are present to worship along
>->side each other and yourself. Count them Ken and let me know.

In keeping with the one-world religious aims of freemasonry, then I
assume that at your "lodge erected to "god"" we would find such
however at my place of worship, you don't find anti=Christs,
abominations, etc that you find at the masonic temples.

I alwasy get a kick out of how the masons always toss in the
"jews".....even supposedly christian masons.... The very Bible that
most masons took their oaths on clearly shows that the jews lied on
Christ, and even delivered Him up.....and when they had the choice to
choose between releasing Him (The Son of the Father) or Barabbas (the
son of his father), they choose the release of a murderer over that of
an Innocent one.......and now they wish to brag about how they bow
with the anti-christs and pray to gawd. Haha, no thanks. Oh how
holy it sounds to have "men" all praying to "gawd"....a closer look
shows how perverted it is for a man to call himself a Christian and to
join an anti-Christian in some prayer to "gawd".


The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as an abomination, yet you and
other masons openly accept them as members. Yeppers, God must be
real happy with a bunch of abominations and anti-His_Son people
gathering together to worship their universal generic one word gawd.
No thanks, I'll stay true to Him and let you other guys feed the
flames of hell's fire.

W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
to

Ken,
kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:

>-- On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:35:20 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
>Edwards) scribbled:
>
>>->Ken,
>>->
>>->kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:
>>->
>>->>-- On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:58:31 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
>>->>Edwards) scribbled:
>>->>
>>->>>->Ken,
>>->>>-> You make the accusation that Freemasonry is a religion and as
>>->>>->I see it, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. You obviously have
>>->>
>>->>First, the statement was made that masonry isn't a religion, and going
>>->>by your post, the burden of proof is in YOUR court. Prove that it
>>->>isn't a religion.

I have never said that Freemasonry is not a religion, and in every
discourse I have had with you I have asked you to define this religion
and so far you have been unable or unwilling to do so. What is the
matter Ken, can you not define it. Put a name on it so that we can
discuss it. Define any religion where all men of differing faiths can
come together and worship God without bloodshed.


>>->>
>>->You can't prove a negative, Ken. That is an impossibility.
>
>Hahaha, you can't prove masonry isn't a religion, eh? Thanks for
>admitting that.
>
>Freemasonry ISN'T a group Christians should belong to. Don't ask me
>to prove it, you can't prove a negative, that is an impossibility.
>sez u.

True, Freemasonry is not for everyone, but I still need for you to
define this religion. I don't think you can.


>
>>->
>>->>You do agree with the other masons in their claim that masonry isn't a
>>->>religion? Then prove it. Such proof would be the revealing of the
>>->>oaths, rituals, and symbolism of masonry wouldn't it?
>>->
>>->I have given you my reason why I cannot reveal them, I am bound by an
>>->obligation, and you have no right to expect me to violate this
>>->obligation. Should I do so, I would be an infidel, and I am not.
>
>So when a mason breaks his promise, he is an infidel? Let me know
>because me thinks I know an infidel.
>
>(Lurkers, see how masonry has them trapped and bound into it's grip
>just like any other group commonly called a cult today, just has a bit
>more spit and polish on it.)

And I suppose that you have never erred? I suppose that you always
keep your promises? Tell us another one Ken.

I was fully conscious when I took the obligation. I was not drugged
nor was I incapacitated in any way and I understood fully what I was
saying, and I found nothing wrong with it.

Send me a brochure.


>
>>->At the next meeting at your place of worship, look around the room and
>>->count how many Jews, Moslems, Bhuddists, Catholics, Presbyterians,
>>->and/or any other religious denominations are present to worship along
>>->side each other and yourself. Count them Ken and let me know.
>
>In keeping with the one-world religious aims of freemasonry,

Nothing could be further from the truth than the above statement, Ken.
Who is lying here? But then if you believe this, everything is a
conspiracy, right?

then I
>assume that at your "lodge erected to "god"" we would find such
>however at my place of worship, you don't find anti=Christs,
>abominations, etc that you find at the masonic temples.
>

By that I assume that everyone in the world, according to you, is an
anti=Christ except those who do not believe as you do? That everyone
else does not have a chance to know God who does not support the
Christian faith and therefore are abominations in the eyes of God
although they are creatures of God?

>I alwasy get a kick out of how the masons always toss in the
>"jews".....even supposedly christian masons.... The very Bible that
>most masons took their oaths on clearly shows that the jews lied on
>Christ, and even delivered Him up.....and when they had the choice to
>choose between releasing Him (The Son of the Father) or Barabbas (the
>son of his father), they choose the release of a murderer over that of
>an Innocent one.......and now they wish to brag about how they bow
>with the anti-christs and pray to gawd. Haha, no thanks. Oh how
>holy it sounds to have "men" all praying to "gawd"....a closer look
>shows how perverted it is for a man to call himself a Christian and to
>join an anti-Christian in some prayer to "gawd".
>

The fact that you particularly indicate your dislike for the Jews
makes me wonder about you Ken.

>The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as an abomination, yet you and
>other masons openly accept them as members. Yeppers, God must be
>real happy with a bunch of abominations and anti-His_Son people
>gathering together to worship their universal generic one word gawd.
>No thanks, I'll stay true to Him and let you other guys feed the
>flames of hell's fire.

Why don't you just say that you will remain true to the hatred and
contempt you have for other people who do not believe as you do, seems
to me to be more in keeping with your attempts to belittle and degrade
them and probably as true.

Tom Krummell (E. Scrooge, Esq.)

unread,
Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
to

Brother Bill,

May I humbly suggest ignoring OFLF? When he wants our opinions, he gives them to
us.

At times like this, using the killfile software allows discussion with those among
us who have something to say, rather than rhetorical spam from a self-identified
hater of his fellow man.

S&F,
Tom Krummell, Master
Roseville Lodge #222, F&AM
Roseville, CA
----------------
W T Edwards wrote:

> Ken,
> <snipped>

> I have never said that Freemasonry is not a religion, and in every
> discourse I have had with you I have asked you to define this religion
> and so far you have been unable or unwilling to do so. What is the
> matter Ken, can you not define it. Put a name on it so that we can
> discuss it. Define any religion where all men of differing faiths can
> come together and worship God without bloodshed.

> <snipped>

> Why don't you just say that you will remain true to the hatred and
> contempt you have for other people who do not believe as you do, seems
> to me to be more in keeping with your attempts to belittle and degrade
> them and probably as true.
>

--
- The mockingbird can change its tune eighty-seven times in seven minutes.
Politicians regard this interesting fact with envy.

W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Tom,
I'm just having a little fun with him. I get so tickled at
his inane posts that I can hardly resist the temptation to reply so
that he can show the observers of this ng how truly hateful and
dishonest and distorting he can be. It is a common practice for
people to critizise in others what they hate most in themselves but
fail to recognize. Besides that he has the depth of thought of an
amoeba, choosing instead to use raw, unbridled emotion as his weapon
of combat. He is probably one of the most entertaining people I have
had the pleasure to argue with.

Bill Edwards PM
Riverdale Lodge #709

Riverdale, Ga.
(just south of Atlanta)

"Tom Krummell (E. Scrooge, Esq.)" <tom...@ix.nospam.netcom.com>
wrote:

>Brother Bill,
>
>May I humbly suggest ignoring OFLF? When he wants our opinions, he gives them to
>us.
>
>At times like this, using the killfile software allows discussion with those among
>us who have something to say, rather than rhetorical spam from a self-identified
>hater of his fellow man.
>
>S&F,
>Tom Krummell, Master
>Roseville Lodge #222, F&AM
>Roseville, CA
>----------------
>W T Edwards wrote:
>
>> Ken,
>> <snipped>
>

>> I have never said that Freemasonry is not a religion, and in every
>> discourse I have had with you I have asked you to define this religion
>> and so far you have been unable or unwilling to do so. What is the
>> matter Ken, can you not define it. Put a name on it so that we can
>> discuss it. Define any religion where all men of differing faiths can
>> come together and worship God without bloodshed.

>> <snipped>


>
>> Why don't you just say that you will remain true to the hatred and
>> contempt you have for other people who do not believe as you do, seems
>> to me to be more in keeping with your attempts to belittle and degrade
>> them and probably as true.
>>
>
>--

coleman

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Dear Bro Bill et al.,

On my Installation night, the Installing Officer informed me that a member
of my church (I am a member of the Latter-Day Saints-wait for Ken to get
into THAT :-) ) was considering joining the Craft but was a little
reluctant because of what he had heard about the Obligation etc. So he gave
him a copy of it! This man is now a member of the Craft and is very much
committed to both the Lodge and the church of which he is a member.
Anybody who wishes to see our ritual can basically buy it from a regalia
shop which sells Masonic 'stuff'. Any person would also see that there are
many DIFFERENT rituals which are used world wide.

Our rituals are there to help focus our minds our responsibilities as men
and to help us to become better people. Of course, being a mason does not
mean that you are automatically a good person: just as being a Christian
doesn't either. I think a very famous Christian was placed in a prison in
America a few years ago for fraud and for buying his wife too much make-up.
But did his actions mean that ALL his followers were evil, or that all the
members of his religious denomination were evil? Of course not!

Masonry is important to me, but it DOES NOT RULE my life. I have a strong
belief in God and His Son but I also like to meet men of other beliefs and
denominations so that I can expand my knowledge: something that one
particular person seems incapable of doing.

Again thanks for the killfiles!!

Gordon Coleman
P.M., P.GStd
Lodge Baden Powell
222 South Australia
"Bear one another's burdens,
and so fulfil the law..."

Tom Krummell (E. Scrooge, Esq.) <tom...@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in
article <3538CA32...@ix.netcom.com>...


> Brother Bill,
>
> May I humbly suggest ignoring OFLF? When he wants our opinions, he gives
them to
> us.
>
> At times like this, using the killfile software allows discussion with
those among
> us who have something to say, rather than rhetorical spam from a
self-identified
> hater of his fellow man.
>
> S&F,
> Tom Krummell, Master
> Roseville Lodge #222, F&AM
> Roseville, CA
> ----------------
> W T Edwards wrote:
>
> > Ken,
> > <snipped>
>

> > I have never said that Freemasonry is not a religion, and in every
> > discourse I have had with you I have asked you to define this religion
> > and so far you have been unable or unwilling to do so. What is the
> > matter Ken, can you not define it. Put a name on it so that we can
> > discuss it. Define any religion where all men of differing faiths can
> > come together and worship God without bloodshed.

> > <snipped>


>
> > Why don't you just say that you will remain true to the hatred and
> > contempt you have for other people who do not believe as you do, seems
> > to me to be more in keeping with your attempts to belittle and degrade
> > them and probably as true.
> >
>
> --

coleman

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Oh Yes, The Muslims believe in Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet, NOT as the Son of
God as Christians believe. They hold him in high regard and when ever they
use His name say "peace be upon him". They NEVER use His name as a
profanity as do many so-called Christians. There is a book on Him in the
Qu-ran and there is for Mary His mother.
They don't look upon Him as The Christ, but as a prophet. Which is more
then Christians think about Muhammad (pbuh).
--
Gordon Coleman
P.M., P.GStd
Lodge Baden Powell
222 South Australia
"Bear one another's burdens,
and so fulfil the law..."

Straw & Raz <Straw&R...@Berry.patch> wrote in article
<35375A...@snet.net>...

W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Ken,

kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:

>-- On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:30:59 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T


>Edwards) scribbled:
>
>>->Ken,
>>->kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:
>>->

>>->>-- On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:35:20 GMT, wted...@mindspring.com (W T
>>->>Edwards) scribbled:
>>->>
>>->I have never said that Freemasonry is not a religion, and in every
>>->discourse I have had with you I have asked you to define this religion
>>->and so far you have been unable or unwilling to do so. What is the
>>->matter Ken, can you not define it. Put a name on it so that we can
>>->discuss it. Define any religion where all men of differing faiths can
>>->come together and worship God without bloodshed.
>
>As long as I've been in this newsgroup, most masons say that masonry
>isn't a religion, are you now disagreeing with them and supporting my
>view? No, I doubt it.

You are correct, Ken. I am not supporting your view. I simply said,
"I never said that Freemasonry is not a religion...." I see that you
are trying to distort my statement by indicating that I agree with
you.

Perhaps you would repost the post in which
>you indicate that I first said masonry was a religion (I do say that,
>I would just like to see which post you are referring to).

The post I am referring to is the one in which you quoted, or rather
partially quoted, from Albert Pike's "Morals & Dogma". Surely you
remember it. The one which you said was on page 113 but which I found
on page 213 (which proves to me that you have never read this book)
and I posted the entire quote. Posting a partial quote or one taken
out of context is not distortion, Ken?
>
>"worship God without bloodshed"? what on earth are you babbling
>about now?
>
How many lives have been needlessly lost in wars between the several
nations on this planet, how many attrocities have been committed
against fellow human beings, how many people have been executed
because they held a different view of God than the other. People of
differing faiths do not worship together, but rather war to prevent
it, each trying to prove how merciful, beneficient and loving their
God is. Many people are willing to kill their "idealistic" enemy over
just that sentiment and such a practice, no doubt, will continue.
History has proven it.
>
<snipped>

>Long before I made the claim that masonry is a religion, masons have
>claimed that it isn't....and by your logic, you as a mason has to
>funish that proof.
>
No, Ken. Long before you were even born many men, far more learned
than you and many much more powerful, have claimed that Freemasonry is
a religion and Masonry has been defending that claim for many a year.
But people, such as yourself, who are easliy swayed by the negative
have believed them and continue to do so.

>So, you agree that Christians shouldn't belong to masonry? Dern it,
>sure looks like that is what you are saying. Hear that you
>christian masons, he agress with me that you shouldn't be in masonry!
>Yeppers, you bet I'm going to save this ammo even though I know he
>will flip-flop as soon as the bubba's whisper in his ear.
>
Another distortion, Ken? What I said was "Freemasonry is not for
every one....", just as your religious belief is not for everyone. I
did not say that Christians should not belong to Freemasonry. Lock
and load, Ken but remember, bullets such as these don't fly straight
when fired through a crooked or twisted barrel.
>
<snipped>
>>->
>>->And I suppose that you have never erred? I suppose that you always
>>->keep your promises? Tell us another one Ken.
>
>Ah, trying to put the masonic wiggle on it, eh? I didn't say I have
>never erred, that wasn't the subject. YOU brought up "infidel"
>regarding breaking a promise/obligation, I simply asked that if a
>mason break his promise, he is an infidel...not that I have never
>erred. Lurkers, newcomers, see how impossible it is to have an
>intelligent dicussion with a hoodwinked mason?
>
Freemasonry has nothing to do with this statement, only logic, which
is a trait that you do not seem to be in possession of. Breaking a
promise is an error, or did that come as a revelation to you?
Breaking a solemn obligation makes the person doing so an infidel.

>>->>So much for trying to have an intelligent discussion.....nothing was
>>->>siad about you know knowing which book you took the oath on but rather
>>->>what your were swearing to conceal....
>>->>
>>->I was fully conscious when I took the obligation. I was not drugged
>>->nor was I incapacitated in any way and I understood fully what I was
>>->saying, and I found nothing wrong with it.
>
>When you took your first obligation/oath to conceal the secrets of
>freemasonry, did you know the secrets at that time....did you know
>what you were agreeing to ever conceal and hide?

Not entirely. But now that I am a Blue Lodge Mason, a Scottish Rite
Mason, a York Rite Mason, a Shrine Mason and Past Master of my lodge
and having read and studied quite a bit into the Masonic Fraternity
and its philosophy, which, by the way, is another trait in which you
seem to be lacking, I can still find nothing in it which would coerce
or persuade me into beliving that Lucifer is the God of Masorny. On
the contrary, Freemasonry appears to be the only TRUE monotheistic
organization known to mankind, for in it there is mentioned no
counterpart to God of any kind whatsoever. NOWHERE! Not so in
Christianity or any other religious sect that you can name.(Lucifier
and the like comes to mind)

>
>(stick around folks, he has just about run out of dance steps on this
>one)

Just getting started, Ken. I will argue with a fence post, which
seems to be what I am currently doing, and quite possibly I will get
more intelligent responses.
>
<snipped>
>>->>
>>->>So the lodge is erected to "god", the light that masonry supposedly
>>->>teachs it's members comes from "god", and yet gathering in this house
>>->>erected to "god" and teaching the lessons of that "god" isn't a
>>->>religion.......want to buy a real nice bridge in Brooklyn? Or a nice
>>->>sandy lot in the desert....?
>>->
>>->Send me a brochure.
>
>Post your address and driving directions to your home in the
>newsgroup, I have.
>
Show me, and I will do the same. I'll even include a map!
>
>>->>
>>->>>->At the next meeting at your place of worship, look around the room and
>>->>>->count how many Jews, Moslems, Bhuddists, Catholics, Presbyterians,
>>->>>->and/or any other religious denominations are present to worship along
>>->>>->side each other and yourself. Count them Ken and let me know.
>>->>
>>->>In keeping with the one-world religious aims of freemasonry,
>>->
>>->Nothing could be further from the truth than the above statement, Ken.
>>->Who is lying here? But then if you believe this, everything is a
>>->conspiracy, right?
>
>If you don't believe or see that the world in headed into a one-world
>government with a one-world religion, then you must have your head in
>the sand.
>
Like I said, Ken everything is a conspiracy, according to you. Must
be tough to try to defend yourself against the entire world, huh?
>>->
>>->then I
>>->>assume that at your "lodge erected to "god"" we would find such
>>->>however at my place of worship, you don't find anti=Christs,
>>->>abominations, etc that you find at the masonic temples.
>>->>
>
>>->By that I assume that everyone in the world, according to you, is an
>>->anti=Christ except those who do not believe as you do? That everyone
>
>Nope, I don't define who is anti-Christ, He does...too bad you don't
>understand that.
>
What? another distortion? Just how many anti-Christs are there
supposed to be, Ken? I understand that there are to be only three and
now you inform me that God has placed an infinite number on these. I
can see where that would be quite confusing!

>>->else does not have a chance to know God who does not support the
>>->Christian faith and therefore are abominations in the eyes of God
>>->although they are creatures of God?
>
>Nope, you are wrong again, everyone will have a chance to know God.

How so? Please explain.

>The abominations I referred to was homosexuality which you openly
>embrace don't you? God, in the Bible, indicates that such is an
>abomination, not I. Did you take your oaths on the Bible?
>
That there are a few homosexual Masons I do not disagree. In any
organization as large as Masonry there will enevitably be some
undesirable people who will manage to get through the doors who should
not have been allowed. Had the investigation into their moral
character been properly conducted, I doubt that they could claim the
priviledge of being a Freemason. I can tell you this much. If a
known homosexual had, has or will petition my lodge, he would have two
chances of getting initiated, none and fat chance!
>>->
>>->>I alwasy get a kick out of how the masons always toss in the
>>->>"jews".....even supposedly christian masons.... The very Bible that
>>->>most masons took their oaths on clearly shows that the jews lied on
>>->>Christ, and even delivered Him up.....and when they had the choice to
>>->>choose between releasing Him (The Son of the Father) or Barabbas (the
>>->>son of his father), they choose the release of a murderer over that of
>>->>an Innocent one.......and now they wish to brag about how they bow
>>->>with the anti-christs and pray to gawd. Haha, no thanks. Oh how
>>->>holy it sounds to have "men" all praying to "gawd"....a closer look
>>->>shows how perverted it is for a man to call himself a Christian and to
>>->>join an anti-Christian in some prayer to "gawd".
>>->>
>>->The fact that you particularly indicate your dislike for the Jews
>>->makes me wonder about you Ken.
>
>Perhaps you would document that I indicate that I dislike Jews?
>
Pardon me. I assumed that, judging from other posts you have made to
Gene Goldman and the one to me, where you grouped them in with the
Moslems, Bhuddist, Catholics, Presbyterians and others as the
anti-Christs. Possibly I am wrong?
>>->
>>->>The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as an abomination, yet you and
>>->>other masons openly accept them as members. Yeppers, God must be
>>->>real happy with a bunch of abominations and anti-His_Son people
>>->>gathering together to worship their universal generic one word gawd.
>>->>No thanks, I'll stay true to Him and let you other guys feed the
>>->>flames of hell's fire.

>>->
>>->Why don't you just say that you will remain true to the hatred and
>>->contempt you have for other people who do not believe as you do, seems
>>->to me to be more in keeping with your attempts to belittle and degrade
>>->them and probably as true.
>
>I don't hate or have contempt for people, I ain't
>real fond of some people's beliefs but I don't hate the person.

Man, you could have fooled me, and many others in this ng! But, by my
being a hoodwinked Mason then you can try to pull a fast one on me,
can't you?
>>->>--
>>->>kwa...@Xiamerica.net (remove the "X")

Russ <Russ >

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

I would like to quote from the book, The Temple and the Lodge. This volume was
written by two non-freemasons, Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh. Page xiv,
paragrapgh three, beginning on line six of the introducion...

"Certainly the Anglican Church, with incipient schism in its ranks and a
disastrously shrinking congregation, could employ its energy and resources more
constructively than in orchestrating crusades against a supposed enemy
[freemasonry], which, in fact, is not an enemy at all."

Freemasory anti-christ. Naw.


W T Edwards wrote:

--
Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

FF

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

In article <353e88e2...@news.iamerica.net>, kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:

> kwa...@Xiamerica.net (remove the "X")

America is the land of freedomŠ until you take powerŠ

Michael D. Stiler

unread,
Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:59:14 GMT, W T Edwards wrote:
>kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:
>>-- wted...@mindspring.com (W T Edwards) scribbled:
>>>->kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:
>>>->>-- wted...@mindspring.com (W T Edwards) scribbled:
>>>->>

=== snipped ===


>>(stick around folks, he has just about run out of dance steps on this
>>one)
>
>Just getting started, Ken. I will argue with a fence post, which
>seems to be what I am currently doing, and quite possibly I will get
>more intelligent responses.


Brother Edwards, perhaps you've never seen that famous quote from
our resident 'King of Stupid', Ken Mitchell? Please allow me to
enlighten you...


"I will argue with a wall. But, I will not be drawn into an
intellectual debate as I am not capable of one."
-- Ken Mitchell

I think your claim of Ken being a fencepost is way, way too
generous <grin>.


Mike Stiler
MM, 32nd, KT, Noble
Redwood City Lodge #168
Redwood City, California


SysDate Consulting Services - "Mind over Data"
Saratoga and Ryer Island, California
--------------------------------
Believer in the 2nd Amendment Freemason
Cyclist Sailor Diver Pilot Piper
"I'll give up sex before I give up motorcycling!"
"Bagpipe Spoken Here"


W T Edwards

unread,
Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98
to

Brother Michael,
I tried being civil with Ken but he would not have it.
Instead he struck the first blow, which by the way, was what I was
hoping he would do. I did resist the temptation to really lay into
him though, and chose instead a milder approach, but I just could not
resist the temptation to throw out some bait for him to see how he
would react. He did not disappoint me. In your post about his quote,

>"I will argue with a wall. But, I will not be drawn into an
> intellectual debate as I am not capable of one."
> -- Ken Mitchell

you are kidding, right? (LOL)

Bill Edwards PM
Riverdale Lodge #709
Riverdale, Ga. (just south of Atlanta)

Michael D. Stiler <sti...@ibm.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:59:14 GMT, W T Edwards wrote:
>>kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:

>>>-- wted...@mindspring.com (W T Edwards) scribbled:
>>>>->kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote:
>>>>->>-- wted...@mindspring.com (W T Edwards) scribbled:
>>>>->>
>
>=== snipped ===


>
>
>>>(stick around folks, he has just about run out of dance steps on this
>>>one)
>>
>>Just getting started, Ken. I will argue with a fence post, which
>>seems to be what I am currently doing, and quite possibly I will get
>>more intelligent responses.
>
>

>Brother Edwards, perhaps you've never seen that famous quote from
>our resident 'King of Stupid', Ken Mitchell? Please allow me to
>enlighten you...
>
>

Scott Simpson

unread,
Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98
to

kwa...@Xiamerica.net wrote in message

>I read a post of the net in which russ identifies himself as a jew.
>Now he wishs to tell us what is or isn't "anti-christ". I suggest
>that the Chrisitans go read their Bible and see for them
>selves....read john 8:44 and matthew chapter 23 to see if russ should
>be believed.
>Read Matthew 12:30
>"He that is not with me is against me; and he
>that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
>


This sounds like a leader of men, gathering his troops. This phrase was
meant for a particular situation, not as the basis for a religion. Let me
elaborate:

Luke 22:36: Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let
him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no
sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

JackFlashz

unread,
Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98
to

>>Read Matthew 12:30
>>"He that is not with me is against me; and he
>>that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
>>
>
>
>This sounds like a leader of men, gathering his troops. This phrase was
>meant for a particular situation, not as the basis for a religion. Let me
>elaborate:
>
>

Yes, it is a great Leader gathering His troops. It does appear that the guys
and gays in freemasonry will not be in that army.

Michael D. Stiler

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Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98
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On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:15:20 GMT, W T Edwards wrote:
>Brother Michael,
> I tried being civil with Ken but he would not have it.
>Instead he struck the first blow, which by the way, was what I was
>hoping he would do. I did resist the temptation to really lay into
>him though, and chose instead a milder approach, but I just could not
>resist the temptation to throw out some bait for him to see how he
>would react. He did not disappoint me. In your post about his quote,
>
>>"I will argue with a wall. But, I will not be drawn into an
>> intellectual debate as I am not capable of one."
>> -- Ken Mitchell
>
>you are kidding, right? (LOL)
>
>Bill Edwards PM

Brother Bill, you've read Ken's posts on these newsgroups. Does what I
posted *sound* like I was kidding? He's a professional idiot. He posted
that a long, long time ago and it was so perfectly *him* that I cut it out
and kept it for use as a tagline.


Fraternally,

Scott Simpson

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Apr 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/24/98
to

JackFlashz wrote in message
<199804231147...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

>
>Yes, it is a great Leader gathering His troops. It does appear that the
guys
>and gays in freemasonry will not be in that army.

Why is that? Please tell.


Russ <Russ >

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Apr 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/29/98
to

What more can someone say????? All I can say is thank you.
Congratulations, Sister-to-be Jana!!!!!!!

RedRopers wrote:

> Hopefully, I'm doing this right. I've never posted here before. But, I do have
> a few comments to make. First, please understand that this is coming from
> someone who grew up in a Masonic household. My father, husband and father in
> law are all Masons. I grew up to be very anti-masonic, I hated everything it
> stood for, and voiced the same at any given opportunity. To the point my
> husband dropped out of his lodge and completely quit going. He had even told
> me to quit paying his dues. But, every year without fail I sent them in. Don't
> ask me why, because I was getting exactly what I wanted.
>
> Well, it's been 10 yrs that I raked my poor husband over the coals because of
> his Masonic affiliation. I started doing a little research on Freemasonry. I've
> researched both the anti-masonic and the masonic versions. I've learned
> something from all of it, like the truth, the Masonic version never wavers in
> what it says. The Anti-masonic version of the truth is never the same from one
> story to the next. It's like playing round robin, the longer the story goes
> the bigger it gets.
>
> I also started checking my Bible along with a lot of the Masonic stories, and
> true to form they've always checked out. So, I do wonder about the
> anti-masonic faction? Do they say these things because they believe everything
> that's handed to them or do they just say these things because they have
> nothing better to do. I've found that people who have to belittle or blame
> someone for something, is only because they are so narrow minded it makes them
> feel important.
>
> Well, I can honestly say that after all my research, and my search for the
> truth. I have found it, at this point I have petitioned and have been accepted
> into the Eastern Star. (Yes, I'm eating crow, and actually it doesn't taste
> that bad) I'm also desperately trying to get my husband back into his lodge. I
> remind him when that "thursday" rolls around each month.
>
> God willing, he'll be back in with some of the best men it has been my honor to
> know.
>
> Thanks
> Jana

.

unread,
Apr 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/29/98
to

Jana,
This testimony of yours is worth more to the Craft than hundreds of
thousands of words written by Masons in defense of their Fraternity on
this NG. Although we have on this NG some very eloquent authors, they
do not come close to doing what you have just done. My sincerest
regards to you and your husband in your quest for the best life
experience you can have. You will find more people who support your
decision than those who want to chastise you for it. Welcome into the
best group of individuals I've ever had the honor to be a part of.
S&F,
Kurt MM, SDeM, PMC

RedRopers

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
to

W T Edwards

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
to

Jana,
Education is what it is all about. Glad you were persistent
and intelligent enough to search for and find that the philosophy of
Freemasonry is not in conflict with any church or community. Good
luck on your journey.

Bill Edwards PM, WP
Riverdale Lodge #709
Riverdale Chapter #446


Riverdale, Ga. (just south of Atlanta)

Eugene Goldman.·.

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
to

On 30 Apr 1998 00:45:28 GMT, redr...@aol.com (RedRopers) wrote:


上ell, it's been 10 yrs that I raked my poor husband over the coals
刃ecause of his Masonic affiliation. I started doing a little research

寸n Freemasonry. I've researched both the anti-masonic and the masonic

己ersions. I've learned something from all of it, like the truth, the
刀asonic version never wavers in what it says. The Anti-masonic
己ersion of the truth is never the same from one story to the next.
儿t's like playing round robin, the longer the story goes the bigger
夕t gets.

That's one of the things about dealing with antis that makes it easy.
As a Mason, all I ever have to do is tell the truth about my
fraternity. I don't have to think up a convincing lie, or fabricate a
plausible story. The truth will out, and the truth is on our side.

儿 also started checking my Bible along with a lot of the Masonic
山tories, and true to form they've always checked out. So, I do
已onder about the anti-masonic faction? Do they say these things
刃ecause they believe everything that's handed to them or do they just

山ay these things because they have nothing better to do. I've found
川hat people who have to belittle or blame someone for something, is
寸nly because they are so narrow minded it makes them feel important.

Some antis make their livelyhood selling tractates, pamphlets and
books. Hate, at least for them, is big business. Some blindly follow
some self-appointed "spiritual leader" on a campaign. Some know
nothing about the fraternity but hate it's members for personal
reasons, then project their hate onto the entire fraternity. A few, I
suppose, just blindly accept whatever they are told by certain people,
and these certain people have told them that the fraternity is
something that it isn't. I know of at least one case where an anti's
campaign was based solely on ego. Hating Masons, and being known for
it, was the only thing that gave him a sense of identity.

上ell, I can honestly say that after all my research, and my search
口or the truth. I have found it, at this point I have petitioned and
士ave been accepted into the Eastern Star. (Yes, I'm eating crow, and
兀ctually it doesn't taste that bad) I'm also desperately trying to
土et my husband back into his lodge. I remind him when that "thursday"

尸olls around each month.

For four years or more, I have been telling people who inquire about
the wild claims made by antis - Test what you are being told against
what YOU KNOW and what YOU can INDEPENDENTLY verify. Don't measure
the fraternity, or ANY organization, by what others say about it,
measure it against REALITY, FACT and TRUTH.

When you apply these criteria to Freemasonry, any reasonable person,
even if they feel it is not their "cup of tea", could not help but
have a favorable opinion.

Welcome to the Star, Sister Jana. I hope your journey will be an
enlightening and pleasant one. Let us know about your progress and
your impressions.

二od willing, he'll be back in with some of the best men it has been
孑y honor to know.

Just one question here. Are you the same Jana I corresponded with
some months ago? What is your husband's name? You may answer
privately (hypn...@pacbell.net), if you wish, but I am curious.


Be well. Travel with a light heart.


Eugene Goldman P.*. M.*.
W.M. Black Mountain Lodge, #845, San Diego, Ca.
(http://www.creative-commerce.com/lodge2.html)
p.m. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca.
Southern Ca. Research Lodge
A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego

May Brotherly Love forever prevail,
and every moral and social Virtue cement us.


If you can read this, you have gone too far!

Mike Hall

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Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
to

In article <199804300045...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
redr...@aol.com (RedRopers) wrote:

> Hopefully, I'm doing this right. I've never posted here before.

Sure, you're doing it right!! Welcome to the alt.freemasonry board,
Jana. Coming from the Christianity-Masonry board on AOL, you will find
yourself right at home here ... the same sad old arguments, the same lack
of any proof of any type, and the same name-calling (actually, worse
name-calling because some of the stuff on this board would never pass TOS
on AOL!!)
Be sure to also check out soc.org.freemasonry. That is a moderated
board which means the worse of the antis- don't get on it and we can have
a little more reasoned discussion! See you over there!
Mike Hall MM Yosemite Lodge 99 Merced CA
(MercedMike on AOL)
=========================================
Wise men speak because they have something to say.
Fools speak because they have to say something
-----------------------------------------
I'll look at yours if you'll look at mine!
http://www.elite.net/~thehalls

RedRopers

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May 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/7/98
to

You will find more people who support your decision than those who want to
chastise you for it.

Actually, I've had both. But, it wouldn't matter to me if the whole world
turned against me. I do what I think is right. I try not to let other change my
mind, mainly because not everyone is right, but then again not everyone is
wrong. It's up to the individual to decide what the truth is. To be honest, my
search started to prove the Anti-Masons correct in an argument they were in on
the AOL boards. Only thing was, I couldn't find one version of the truth. To me
I found their "truth" to be very insulting to a logical mind. Things they were
saying didn't add up, didn't make sense, etc. I couldn't believe what they were
saying if I honestly tried.

Jana

RedRopers

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May 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/7/98
to

Just one question here. Are you the same Jana I corresponded with some months
ago? What is your husband's name? You may answer privately
(hypn...@pacbell.net), if you wish, but I am curious.

I don't remember I may be...I corresponded with so many looking for answers,
asking questions about different things etc. There's not many Jana's around, so
it probably was me. My husband's name is Rodney.

Take care
Jana

Eugene Goldman.·.

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

On 07 May 1998 13:46:37 GMT, redr...@aol.com (RedRopers) wrote:

儿 don't remember I may be...I corresponded with so many looking for answers,
兀sking questions about different things etc. There's not many Jana's around, so
夕t probably was me. My husband's name is Rodney.

Nope, it was another Jana. No mind, glad to meet you, welcome to the ng. Pull
up a chair, relax and enjoy the acts.

Eugene Goldman.·.

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

On 07 May 1998 13:43:27 GMT, redr...@aol.com (RedRopers) wrote:

乙ctually, I've had both. But, it wouldn't matter to me if the whole world
川urned against me. I do what I think is right. I try not to let other change my
孑ind, mainly because not everyone is right, but then again not everyone is
已rong. It's up to the individual to decide what the truth is. To be honest, my
山earch started to prove the Anti-Masons correct in an argument they were in on
川he AOL boards. Only thing was, I couldn't find one version of the truth. To me
儿 found their "truth" to be very insulting to a logical mind. Things they were
山aying didn't add up, didn't make sense, etc. I couldn't believe what they were
山aying if I honestly tried.

You know, Jana, that is exactly my experience with antis for years now. Their
claims, charges and statements simply lack any basis in reality. When you test
ANY of their words against what you yourself KNOW to be true, guess what? No
match.

When people read with an open mind and a willingness to learn something new, as
opposed to validating themselves or justifying their beliefs and biases, they
can come to a *fact based* assessment, rather than echoing some other LFJ's
claims.

I'm glad you found the truth. Thanks for sharing it with us. I always
suspected that the antis were our best asset for recruitment.

no...@bellsouth.net

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98
to

-- On Mon, 11 May 1998 14:34:16 GMT, hypn...@pacbell.net (Eugene
Goldman.·.) typed:

del

|>You know, Jana, that is exactly my experience with antis for years now. Their
|>claims, charges and statements simply lack any basis in reality. When you test
|>ANY of their words against what you yourself KNOW to be true, guess what? No
|>match.

It is interesting you make that statement considering the fact that it
was a mason who attacked someone for cancelling posts. Turned out
that the mason had hundreds of cancelled posts while the poster he was
attacking had none. The masonic answer? Heck, just forge posts in
the name of the person he was attacking, send them to dejanews so it
will look like the person he is attacking has cancelled posts.

In case you missed it, the mason bragged about sending those posts
under someone else's name even though it got him booted off his ISP.
Please tell us more about how the claims, charges and statements of
anti-masonry people lack any basis in reality.


|>When people read with an open mind and a willingness to learn something new, as
|>opposed to validating themselves or justifying their beliefs and biases, they
|>can come to a *fact based* assessment, rather than echoing some other LFJ's
|>claims.

|>I'm glad you found the truth. Thanks for sharing it with us. I always
|>suspected that the antis were our best asset for recruitment.


--
Email address is "jam41" @ "bellsouth" dot "net"

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