Masonry Demit Letter for Christian Masons
NormDstorm
from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
"To the Master, Officers and Members of Lodge ______,
Dear Friends,
It is with regret that I submit my resignation from your Lodge and
from all Masonic bodies. I have taken this step in spite of the fact
that I value very deeply the friendships and associations I have
developed within Masonry over the years. However, One whom I love more
than all of you has said, "He that loveth father or mother more than
me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than
me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)
Those who call themselves Christians and believe in the name of Jesus
are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
commandments. If I am called to love Him more than my own family, how
much more am I called to love Him more than friends and fraternal
brothers?
Unfortunately, in spite of the fraternal love I bear you all, I find
that in following Jesus Christ, I must sever my ties with all forms of
Masonry. This is no reflection upon you, nor upon the many good things
Masonry does. It is simply the fact that Masonry refuses to honor
Jesus Christ as God Almighty come in the flesh to save us from our
sins.
Our Lord said that "He that is not with me is against me, and he that
gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." (Matthew 12:30)
Masonry refuses to confess Jesus before me, and Jesus has warned that
"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess
also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me
before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
(Matthew 10:32-33)
Anything which presents itself as a religious or moral institution and
yet does not confess Jesus as God is denying Jesus! I'm deeply sorry;
brothers, but I cannot be a part of such a thing.
Masonry establishes itself as a complement to ones church, which
sounds find. Masonry has prayers, rituals, and solemn ceremonies in
which the Bible is involved. The Lodge is not secular, but religious.
But in my study of the Bible, it seems clear that Masonry asks us, as
Masons, to do things contrary to Biblical teachings.
For example, Jesus commanded us to "teach all nations" (Matthew
28:19-20) and to preach the gospel to everyone (Mark 16:15), yet
Masonic etiquette forbids me, as a Christian, from sharing my Savior
with my non-Christian Lodge brothers. I must stand by politely and
watch them go to hell, "for there is none other name under heaven
given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) Whom am I to
obey, my Lord or my Lodge?
The very Bible which sits on the altar commands these things. It is
one of the "three great lights" of Masonry, and yet you ignore its
teachings for the sake of harmony.
Jesus also commands us to swear no oaths (Matthew 5:34-37) and His
sovereign command is echoed by James (5:12). Yet the taking of solemn
oaths is the very heart of Masonic ritual. My brothers, these things
ought not to be! Finally, the apostle Paul commands that believers in
Jesus not be "unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what
fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion
hath light with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14)
I take my Masonic obligations very seriously, and for that very
reason, I realize that the cable-tow was a powerful yoke which bound
me to many Masons who are not Christians, however sincere they may be
in their devotions. I must take the commands of my God more seriously.
To remain in Masonry is to compromise my relationship with Jesus Who
died for me.
I realize that whatever benefits Masonry has, they cannot possibly be
compared with the joys of full friendship with the Almighty Lord of
the universe Who died so that I might live - and who loves all Masons,
as I do, even though they allow Him no place in their ceremonies.
You, my brothers, must decide for yourselves what you will do with the
god of Masonry, but "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
(Joshua 24:15)
God bless you as you seek His will in this important manner.
[signed] In Christian love,
[Your name]
(บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
ซ.ทฐท. N d S .ทฐท.ป
(ธ.ทบ(ธ.ทจ* *จท.ธ)บท.ธ)
Malcolm Tucker
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message news:4b92jugrfs0d8d4rf...@4ax.com...
> This is a sample letter of resignation from the Masonic lodge, taken
> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
I hope you were careful to obtain permission to reproduce
the authors copyrighted work.
> "To the Master, Officers and Members of Lodge ______,
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> It is with regret that I submit my resignation from your Lodge and
>
If I am called to love Him more than my own family, how
> much more am I called to love Him more than friends and fraternal
> brothers?
An in what way does this conflict with your Christian duty?
If you love him more, can you not also have friends ?
Or must you sever all friendships and ties ?
If you use this as a yardship for your relations with your fellow
men you are going to have a very lonely surjoin on earth.
You will not be able to join any clubs, sports bodies, schools,
colleges, businesses or social groups have non christian members
or do business with non christian customers.
I hope you are consistent and apply these norms to all your
dealings with your fellow men.
malcolm
3640 UGLE
Richard Jackson
> (º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
> «.·°·. N d S .·°·.»
> (¸.·º(¸.·¨* *¨·.¸)º·.¸)
You call that a simple letter?
All that is needed is this:
Dear Master and Brethren,
I find that my beliefs and the Masonic Lodge conflict with each other.
I therefore ask for a demit.
signed
<name>
BTW, a demit is not resignation from Freemasonry, it is a request to
become an unaffiliated Mason. In some jurisdictions, Texas included, an
unaffiliated Mason can visit in Lodges a few times a year, and is still
considered a Mason. Your advice, therefore is not only overly wordy, it
is inaccurate.
--
Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, TX
Richard White
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b92jugrfs0d8d4rf...@4ax.com...
> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
In other words, you couldn't write your own original text of a letter?
> "To the Master, Officers and Members of Lodge ______,
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> It is with regret that I submit my resignation from your Lodge and
> from all Masonic bodies. I have taken this step in spite of the fact
> that I value very deeply the friendships and associations I have
> developed within Masonry over the years. However, One whom I love more
> than all of you has said, "He that loveth father or mother more than
> me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than
> me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)
Which is not a problem, since Freemasonry teaches its members to put their
duty to their God (as they individually perceive and worship Him) before all
else.
> Those who call themselves Christians and believe in the name of Jesus
Christians don't believe in the "name of Jesus" but in "Jesus". In the case
of Trinitarian Christians, that belief goes further and includes Jesus as a
part of God (the Son).
> are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
> my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
> commandments.
Oops! I thought you understood a little bit about Christianity? Since when
did Jesus ("who gave himself for me") give the Commandments?
> If I am called to love Him more than my own family, how
> much more am I called to love Him more than friends and fraternal
> brothers?
Freemasonry is founded on brotherly love, among other things, but since when
has Freemasonry ever required brethren to love one another more than for a
Christian brother to love Jesus? No comparison has ever been made.
[...snipped...]
> This is no reflection upon you, nor upon the many good things
> Masonry does. It is simply the fact that Masonry refuses to honor
> Jesus Christ as God Almighty come in the flesh to save us from our
> sins.
Why should a Fraternity as an *institution* express this? Freemasonry is
neither a religion nor a religious institution. It leaves its members to
decide for themselves individually what their religious belief should be.
Freemasonry's only requirement is that each member has a religious faith in
the form of a belief in a Supreme Being.
[...snipped...]
> Anything which presents itself as a religious or moral institution and
> yet does not confess Jesus as God is denying Jesus!
As has been explained above: Freemasonry is neither a religion nor a
religious institution.
Now I see you hope to claim that a "moral institution" must also "Confess
Jesus". Nice try adding in "moral insitution", but there is a difference
between religion and morality. The religious belief in Jesus is not a
matter of morality but of faith. Although there is a big overlap of
religious tenets and morals, people can also have morals which are not of a
religious nature.
Another point here: to a Trinitarian Christian, Jesus is not God, but a part
of God - the other parts being the Father and the Holy Ghost. From a
Christian doctrinal point of view, your statement is incorrect. Of course,
to a Unitarian Christian, Jesus was never divine at all, and is considered a
human Messiah sent by God.
[...snipped...]
> For example, Jesus commanded us to "teach all nations" (Matthew
> 28:19-20) and to preach the gospel to everyone (Mark 16:15), yet
> Masonic etiquette forbids me, as a Christian, from sharing my Savior
> with my non-Christian Lodge brothers.
Not so. You are quite free to preach to your brethren - outside lodge
business and when not in masonic regalia. It is not the purpose of
Freemasonry to teach religion. Do you teach religion ALL the time? When
you are at work? When you are in meetings? When playing chess in your
local chess club? Or ditto for football? Likewise, when on masonic
matters, it is also not the appropriate time to be preaching either.
[...snipped...]
> Jesus also commands us to swear no oaths (Matthew 5:34-37) and His
> sovereign command is echoed by James (5:12). Yet the taking of solemn
> oaths is the very heart of Masonic ritual.
It's also something every important public official does from
Queen/President down. Are they all going to hell <lol>?
Try not quoting isolated out of context portions of the Bible, and you may
gain some more credence.
[...snipped...]
S & F Regards,
Richard White
ProvAGDC Provincial Grand Lodge of Surrey
WM Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
Almoner &
JW/PM Addington Lodge No. 5080
M.E. "Z" Haroldslea Chapter No. 7328
UGLE (incl. SGC)
ChStwd/PM H.A. Mann Lodge of MMM No. 1197
GLMMME
Member MBBFMN No. 395
http://mastermason.com/old-olavians-lodge/
Please visit this new site and sign the guest book
http://www.geocities.com/freemasonry_masons/
Mike Wells
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b92jugrfs0d8d4rf...@4ax.com...
> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
>
> "To the Master, Officers and Members of Lodge ______,
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> It is with regret that I submit my resignation from your Lodge and
> from all Masonic bodies. I have taken this step in spite of the fact
> that I value very deeply the friendships and associations I have
> developed within Masonry over the years.
snip
If your evolving beliefs require that you leave Masonry be assured that you
may leave in the manner in which you arrived, in peace and harmony, with no
ill will for following your conscience. In all aspects, Masonic membership
is a voluntary association.
--
Mike Wells
Normal #673, AF&AM, Illinois
Ed King
wrote:
> This is a sample letter of resignation from the Masonic lodge, taken
snippted>
Isn't it a HOOT??? And the guy who wrote the book CLEARLY has a hard
time figuring out what religion is what - as is documented at
http://www.masonicinfo.com/schnoebelen.htm
Ed King
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
Ed King
> You call that a simple letter?
Errrr..... Actually, he called it a s_a_mple letter - and the writer of
the message is not the author. The author is one William Schnoebelen who
seems to have a fair amount of difficulty deciding what religion really
was all about. I've done a page about him on my website and others who've
found his constantly shifting morality have linked to it as part of their
exposures of Mr. Schnoebelen.
It should also be noted that Mr. Schnoebelen - despite never having
mentioned it in 30 years - is now a self-proclaimed expert on nuclear
'dirty bombs' and even has a video to tell you all about them. I find it
truly fascinating the number of things he's managed to be an expert on -
some, simply 'out of the blue'. I suppose it's only coincidental that he's
able to sell videotapes on these subjects.... <ROFL>
<snip>
> BTW, a demit is not resignation from Freemasonry, it is a request to
> become an unaffiliated Mason. In some jurisdictions, Texas included, an
> unaffiliated Mason can visit in Lodges a few times a year, and is still
> considered a Mason. Your advice, therefore is not only overly wordy, it
> is inaccurate.
Bill Schnoebelen inaccurate? Say it ain't so.... I'm waiting with bated
breath for his video on how to avoid company scandals, yet another area
he's never indicated he ever had any knowledge of in the past but which, I
predict, will be forthcoming any day now. Breathless prose about the
Illuminati (of which he claims to have been a part but - strangely -
without ever naming the names of anyone who was in it with him) running
the banking system etc. etc.
Fraternally,
MercedMike
a hypocritical asshole:
"Brothers:
I request a dimit.
Thank you."
Mike Hall, MM, Yosemite Lodge #99, Merced CA
Jim Bennie
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> This is a sample letter of resignation from the Masonic lodge, taken
> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
"Sample"? Hardly. I demitted from a lodge (and now belong to only
three of them) and am a Christian. I didn't say anything like this
at all. Of course, as there's no conflict between Christianity and
the Masonic fraternity, there'd be no need to.
> It is simply the fact that Masonry refuses to honor
> Jesus Christ as God Almighty come in the flesh to save us from our
> sins.
I suspect the author (Bill Schnobelen) must be dead then. As the local
grocery store and waterworks don't do the same, he will have stopped
shopping and cut off his water, thus dying of starvation and thirst.
Or he will have left your USA altogether, as the US government doesn't
do what he expected his fraternity to do.
What? Bill's still alive? And he didn't? How about that.
If one feels he should demit from a lodge, then that's what he
should do. But he shouldn't be a hypocrite about it.
Jim Bennie
IPM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver
Ken Hawn
> This is a sample letter of resignation from the Masonic lodge, taken
> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
>
> "To the Master, Officers and Members of Lodge ______,
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> It is with regret that I submit my resignation from your Lodge and
> from all Masonic bodies. I have taken this step in spite of the fact
> that I value very deeply the friendships and associations I have
> developed within Masonry over the years. However, One whom I love more
> than all of you has said, "He that loveth father or mother more than
> me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than
> me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)
Masonry was never meant to come before a man's family or God.
>
> Those who call themselves Christians and believe in the name of Jesus
> are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
> my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
> commandments. If I am called to love Him more than my own family, how
> much more am I called to love Him more than friends and fraternal
> brothers?
>
> Unfortunately, in spite of the fraternal love I bear you all, I find
> that in following Jesus Christ, I must sever my ties with all forms of
> Masonry. This is no reflection upon you, nor upon the many good things
> Masonry does. It is simply the fact that Masonry refuses to honor
> Jesus Christ as God Almighty come in the flesh to save us from our
> sins.
>
> Our Lord said that "He that is not with me is against me, and he that
> gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." (Matthew 12:30)
>
> Masonry refuses to confess Jesus before me, and Jesus has warned that
> "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess
> also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me
> before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
> (Matthew 10:32-33)
There is no reason why you can't talk about Jesus to your Brothers, but do
you have to do it during a Stated Communication? You woundn't discuss it at
a PTA meeting would you?
>
> Anything which presents itself as a religious or moral institution and
> yet does not confess Jesus as God is denying Jesus! I'm deeply sorry;
> brothers, but I cannot be a part of such a thing.
You seem to be misled as to the basics of Masonry. We do not present
ourselves as a place of worship. It is a place where men can come together
in unity without the bickering over religion and politics. No one is
denying Jesus. No one is denying Buddah. If you are a real Christian you
will be bringing Jesus into the Lodge with you when you come because He is
inside of you. The Lodge members can tell if you are a real Christian by
your walk and talk. Just let your light shine before them.
>
> Masonry establishes itself as a complement to ones church, which
> sounds find. Masonry has prayers, rituals, and solemn ceremonies in
> which the Bible is involved. The Lodge is not secular, but religious.
> But in my study of the Bible, it seems clear that Masonry asks us, as
> Masons, to do things contrary to Biblical teachings.
Well, you better keep your son out of the Boy Scouts too. They also believe
in God. Are they a religion. Our Congress has prayer and a chaplain. Are
they a religion? What kind of things do we do that is contrary to the
Bible? Fish Fries ?
> For example, Jesus commanded us to "teach all nations" (Matthew
> 28:19-20) and to preach the gospel to everyone (Mark 16:15), yet
> Masonic etiquette forbids me, as a Christian, from sharing my Savior
> with my non-Christian Lodge brothers. I must stand by politely and
> watch them go to hell, "for there is none other name under heaven
> given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) Whom am I to
> obey, my Lord or my Lodge?
You are only forbidden to talk about religion in a Tiled meeting. Why don't
you talk about it out in the yard? There is a time a place for everything.
> The very Bible which sits on the altar commands these things. It is
> one of the "three great lights" of Masonry, and yet you ignore its
> teachings for the sake of harmony.
Wait a minute. You were told to follow the teachings of the Book. No one
ever said that it would be a group endeavor.
> Jesus also commands us to swear no oaths (Matthew 5:34-37) and His
> sovereign command is echoed by James (5:12). Yet the taking of solemn
> oaths is the very heart of Masonic ritual. My brothers, these things
> ought not to be! Finally, the apostle Paul commands that believers in
> Jesus not be "unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what
> fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion
> hath light with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14)
I can't believe this guy. Surely, he was never a Mason. Please read
http://www.masonicfax.com/oaths.htm
You will find that the Bible does not condemn oaths.
> I take my Masonic obligations very seriously, and for that very
> reason, I realize that the cable-tow was a powerful yoke which bound
> me to many Masons who are not Christians, however sincere they may be
> in their devotions. I must take the commands of my God more seriously.
> To remain in Masonry is to compromise my relationship with Jesus Who
> died for me.
What are you going to do about your church membership? Are you going to
promise to uphold the church when there may be people in the church who are
not committed Christians? Jesus ate with sinners and hookers, but you
can't, right?
> I realize that whatever benefits Masonry has, they cannot possibly be
> compared with the joys of full friendship with the Almighty Lord of
> the universe Who died so that I might live - and who loves all Masons,
> as I do, even though they allow Him no place in their ceremonies.
> You, my brothers, must decide for yourselves what you will do with the
> god of Masonry, but "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
> (Joshua 24:15)
>
> God bless you as you seek His will in this important manner.
>
You could have had the best of both worlds, but you are throwing it away.
To bad.
--
Frat Regards,
Ken Hawn
K.T., 32 ฐ
Jacksonville
Learn more about Masonry.
Visit my website "MASONIC FACTS"
www.masonicfax.com
MasonTruth
>From: NormDstorm normds...@SPAMhotmail.com
>Date: 7/14/2002 12:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <4b92jugrfs0d8d4rf...@4ax.com>
Dear Sir,
Masonry does not conflict with any Religion. It encourages a man to dedicate
himself to God via his chosen faith. The Tenets of MAsonry are Brotherly Love,
Relief and Truth. Please feel free to express why Masonry in your thughts
conflicts with Christianity, or any Religion..
I look forward to hearing from you..
Sincerely & Respectfully,
MasonTruth
Bro. Manny Blanco (W.M.)
Moreno Valley Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, CA
"Behold how good and pleasant it is for Brethren to dwell together in unity."
MercedMike
conflicts with Christianity, or any Religion..
I look forward to hearing from you. >>
My God, Manny, don't you realize that he will think you might be serious?
;-)
Lyndon
Just a quick comment about this letter sent in by
NormDstorm......... If my memory serves me right didn't Jesus our
saviour while dieing on the cross look up and say " FORGIVE THEM FATHER
.....FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO....." so I think this line in
this bitty letter quote ""
" It is simply the fact that Masonry refuses to honour
Jesus Christ as God Almighty come in the flesh to save us from our
sins.
Can not be at all right , or am I missing some thing ???
Bro Lyndon Evans S.D. Integrity Lodge # 5864
In North West England
NormDstorm
None of the institutions above FORBID me from expressing my beliefs to
my fellow man (as far as I know they don't) As soon as they do it will
not be proper for a Christian to attend them. Or it is their
responsibility to disregard those rules, at the risk of persecution in
order to obey Christ.
NormDstorm
<ros...@ih2000.net> wrote:
>I found this article on Christianity on another NG.
>
>
>Disclaimer: This document for informational purpsoes only. Keep salt
>shaker handy and use many grains. Do not e-mail. No one will debate you.
>
<snip>
As this isn't the right forum, I'm not going to attempt to prove the
Christian religion. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
Bible Old and New Testament is the inspired Word of God. I believe
that every word is true not out of blind faith, but from years of
scrutiny and research.
The original post was intended for my fellow brothers in Christ who
may not have the understanding of the Bible needed to see that your
organization is not something a true believer would want to be
associated with.
If you think the New Testament is not at all true why douse it sit
there starring you in the face at every one of your meatings?
NormDstorm
wrote:
>You call that a simple letter?
>
>All that is needed is this:
>
>Dear Master and Brethren,
>
>I find that my beliefs and the Masonic Lodge conflict with each other.
>I therefore ask for a demit.
>
>signed
><name>
>
>
>BTW, a demit is not resignation from Freemasonry, it is a request to
>become an unaffiliated Mason. In some jurisdictions, Texas included, an
>unaffiliated Mason can visit in Lodges a few times a year, and is still
>considered a Mason. Your advice, therefore is not only overly wordy, it
>is inaccurate.
The letters real (and I guess a bit hidden) intention is to help those
Christians understand why they would want to get out of masonry.
I doubt anyone would actually use this letter for your reason above.
NormDstorm
As someone clamming to be a Christian, It sounds like masonry is the
center point of your life. when is the last time you talked to anyone
about Christ rather than trying to tear down your fellow brothers.
I suggest reading 1Cor ch13. again.
NormDstorm
<lyn...@evans2ooo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi Bro's
> Just a quick comment about this letter sent in by
>NormDstorm......... If my memory serves me right didn't Jesus our
>saviour while dieing on the cross look up and say " FORGIVE THEM FATHER
>.....FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO....." so I think this line in
>this bitty letter quote ""
That was said by Jesus about the people killing him because they
didn't know he was the Christ. It is true though that all can receive
forgiveness for there sins (if they ask for it). The catch is you
must first actually believe that Jesus is Gods son, that he died for
your sins and rose again. Then repent of your sins, and ask for that
forgiveness that Jesus died for so you could have it.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in
the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he
that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God
abideth on him.
>
>" It is simply the fact that Masonry refuses to honour
>Jesus Christ as God Almighty come in the flesh to save us from our
>sins.
>
>Can not be at all right , or am I missing some thing ???
Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same. A
Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way. If Masonry
doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even care if you
have one, but they do, and are therefor are a religious organization.
and therefore a Christian shouldn't attend.
>
>Bro Lyndon Evans S.D. Integrity Lodge # 5864
>In North West England
>
(บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
NormDstorm
<whi...@mailops.com> wrote:
>
>"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> Those who call themselves Christians and believe in the name of Jesus
>
>Christians don't believe in the "name of Jesus" but in "Jesus". In the case
>of Trinitarian Christians, that belief goes further and includes Jesus as a
>part of God (the Son).
I think you know what was mente there.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
>
>> are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
>> my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
>> commandments.
>
>Oops! I thought you understood a little bit about Christianity? Since when
>did Jesus ("who gave himself for me") give the Commandments?
Jesus said
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
>
>[...snipped...]
>> Jesus also commands us to swear no oaths (Matthew 5:34-37) and His
>> sovereign command is echoed by James (5:12). Yet the taking of solemn
>> oaths is the very heart of Masonic ritual.
>
>It's also something every important public official does from
>Queen/President down. Are they all going to hell <lol>?
Most of them are but not because of those particular oaths. Not a
subject I'm meaning to get into a discussion about, but a very
fascinating one.
bryan
> Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
> A
> Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
> Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way.
he could also attend a "religious organisation" that allows him to recognise
that.
> If Masonry
> doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even care if you
> have one, but they do,
in an ideal world, nobody would care what religion you were... imagine how
harmonious that would be.
> and are therefor are a religious organization.
> and therefore a Christian shouldn't attend.
doesn't sound very "christian" to me...
John Baldwin
how about roughing out a healthy reply to this letter of demit?
Here's a sample from Baldwin's perspective that anybody here may copy,
criticize, edit or slam.
Respectable ___________,
It makes us unhappy that your experience has not drawn you closer to
your personal perspective on Christ.
Although our meetings do not stipulate that members must follow any
particular religious denomination, is it not true that the initiatic
work you received brings more meaning to church functions that you
also attend?
Please consider now the high holy days celebrated by Christians around
the world. Surely they are enhanced through your experience with
masonry. Can you now more fully empathize with fundamental Christian
principles such as rebirth, renewal and refreshment of conscience and
consciousness through knowledge of the Divine, as expressed through
the living example established in Jesus Christ?
As you wish, your letter of demit has been accepted. May you find
success in your endeavors.
Sincerely, ____________
Jeff Naylor
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>If you think the New Testament is not at all true why douse (sic) it sit
>there starring (sic) you in the face at every one of your meatings (sic)?
No one said it *isn't* true, we simply do not discuss whether it's
true or not in Freemasonry. We also do not discuss whether it's true
or not at Rotary, Kiwanis or Lions meetings, they don't ask my opinion
of the divinity of Christ at work, and it has never come up at the
supermarket. We *do* talk about it at church, which is the
appropriate venue. A fraternal lodge is not.
In my lodge we also open the Qu'ran and the Tanakh. I'm thinking
about getting a Bhagvat Gita.
Oh, and we *do* have *meatings*, because nearly every one of our
members orders the steak at our Festive Board.
Jeff Naylor, WM
Lodge Vitruvian, No. 767
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>The letters real (and I guess a bit hidden) intention is to help those
>Christians understand why they would want to get out of masonry.
Nonsense. If someone wants to terminate their membership in the
fraternity, they KNOW why, and do not need anyone else to *tell* them.
Silly notion, trying to convince someone of what they "want".
>I doubt anyone would actually use this letter for your reason above.
There is only one reason for a dimit letter, which is to dimit from a
Lodge.
--
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
Brother Gene .*.
H.M.S.H.
Q.P.H.D.
Mike's friend
http://www.blackmountainlodge.net
http://www.freemason.org
http://mastermason.com/BrotherGene
http://www.mastermason.com/BrotherGene/frequently_asked_questions.htm
MBBFMN #387
ICQ #503060
Proud Member of the Signature Is Longer Than The Post Association
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Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
Don't allow these newsgroup whackos and social misfits to subvert your enjoyment of usenet or threaten you. Get informed by facts. Wake up and smell the coffee! How many people have to suffer from the malicious use of an illogical [Backspace] key before sanity is taken seriously, not for granted?
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Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>That was said by Jesus about the people killing him because they
>didn't know he was the Christ. It is true though that all can receive
>forgiveness for there sins (if they ask for it). The catch is you
>must first actually believe that Jesus is Gods son, that he died for
>your sins and rose again. Then repent of your sins, and ask for that
>forgiveness that Jesus died for so you could have it.
Something Christians have, presumably, done. What is your point?
>Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
Poppycock. Balderdash. The fraternity of Freemasonry doesn't "see"
religions at all. The fraternity recognizes that an individual's
religious beliefs are a private matter, best left between them and
their Divine Creator, and leaves the matter right where it belongs.
Besides, there are few sillier notions than that "all religions are
the same". The fact that they ARE different religions MEANS they are
NOT the same.
What men who become Masons understand, and the point that you seem to
miss, is that my religious opinions are every bit as valid for and
important to me as yours are to you.
This is not anything that the fraternity teaches, but something that
is obvious to any intelligent person that has ever considered the
matter.
> A Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
>Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way. If Masonry
>doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even care if you
>have one, but they do,
Actually, the fact is that the fraternity does NOT care, or even KNOW
what religious opinions a person has, or even if they have any
whatsoever. Check your facts before making such silly accusations.
Like Scouting, Campfire and many other fraternal organizations,
Masonry has a requirement that an applicant have a belief in a Supreme
Being. No amplification of that belief is ever asked, nor is any
desired. Having *a* belief is sufficient. The rest is a matter best
left between the individual and that Supreme Being he believes in.
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>None of the institutions above FORBID me from expressing my beliefs to
>my fellow man (as far as I know they don't)
Nor does the fraternity of Freemasonry. Your point is?
Gene Zippy
wrote:
>Friends and neighbors, I think opportunity is being missed here....
>how about roughing out a healthy reply to this letter of demit?
As any Mason knows, a letter of dimit need only be responded to with a
letter of acceptance. The opinions and judgements you expressed in
your attempt are simply not appropriate - for anyone to make.
Ed King
> The letters real (and I guess a bit hidden) intention is to help those
> Christians understand why they would want to get out of masonry.
Do you know that for a fact or are you just making assumptions? How well do
you know Bill Schnoebelen? Do you and he attend the same church? If not,
how can you be sure that his beliefs are the same as yours?
> I doubt anyone would actually use this letter for your reason above.
Of course not. Then why would one bandy it about on usenet? Perhaps because
they're clueless?
Ed King
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
Ed King
> "NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:lpo7jushso23g2qjb...@4ax.com...
>
> > Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
>
> what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
Actually, Bryan, his assumption is wrong. Masonry does not "see" any religion
at all. Its membership requirement specifies a belief in a Supreme Being (in
some jurisdictions defined as 'God') but as to a 'position' on any religion,
there simply is none.
If there's no position on any religion, it's therefore impossible to "see(s)
all religions the same." It would be like condemning the local supermarket
because it "sees all religions the same"....
> > A Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
> > Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way.
>
> he could also attend a "religious organisation" that allows him to recognise
> that.
And, of course, since Masonry is not a religious organization, there's no
conflict here.
> > If Masonry doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even
> > care if you have one, but they do,
>
> in an ideal world, nobody would care what religion you were... imagine how
> harmonious that would be.
I'd also point out that your correspondent again makes a false assumption from
which to reach his false conclusion. Masonry doesn't care if you have 'a
religion'. It requires of its applicants a belief in a Supreme Being but
that's a LONG way from a requirement that you have a religion.
These folks get so hung up in their dogma that they can't see the forest for
the trees sometimes. Unable to accept that anyone might think even the
slightest bit differently....
What religion would he have us espouse? Would he be satisfied if all Masons
professed a belief in the Roman Catholic Church? I think THAT is highly
doubtful - but it's something that's conveniently overlooked.
And has he made any rants about the Knights of Columbus or the Rotary Club? I
doubt it....
> > and are therefor are a religious organization.
> > and therefore a Christian shouldn't attend.
>
> doesn't sound very "christian" to me...
As with all 'religious intolerants', his false premise allows him to reach a
false conclusion - easily!
And, you'll note, that these 'drive-by proselytizers' never seem to give a
name or let us know where we might go to share this miraculous fellowship they
have. Wonder why that is.... After all, if they're so sure that they've got it
right, why don't they tell us *exactly* what religion we should believe in -
and what SPECIFIC churches (not that gooey generality like 'any church which
teaches the TRUE beliefs of Jesus Christ and then when we get one we think
does, they tell us that we're heretics because we've not interpreted some
particular phrase the same way they do in THEIR church) we should be
attending.
Generalities.... Wonder why they can't get past that to the specifics....
Fraternally,
Ed King
> Friends and neighbors, I think opportunity is being missed here....
> how about roughing out a healthy reply to this letter of demit?
<sigh> More irrelevant babbling from someone who's NOT a Mason. Why
does this matter to you, Mr. Baldwin.
> Here's a sample from Baldwin's perspective that anybody here may copy,
> criticize, edit or slam.
Please allow me to criticize: it's NOT the job of any Lodge officer to
deal with matters of this type - but since you're not a Mason, you'd
have no way of knowing such a thing.
> Respectable ___________,
That's not what we refer to other Masons as.
> It makes us unhappy that your experience has not drawn you closer to
> your personal perspective on Christ.
Huh? Who's "us" and what gives whoever's sending this missive of yours
the right to speak for me?
<Balance of ingratiating babble snipped>
I think an opportunity is being missed, Mr. Baldwin: the opportunity for
you to leave before putting your foot in your mouth any further.
NormDstorm
wrote:
>"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:lpo7jushso23g2qjb...@4ax.com...
>
>> Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
>
>what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
No, but I believe it is the only way to heaven, and so should everyone
who calls them self a Christian. Pluralism just doesn't work. Almost
every major religion claims to be the only way. So how can they all be
right?
Keep in mind this started as a thread to Christian to explain why I
think they are going astray in masonry.. I'm more than happy to defend
my faith though.
Anyone who is not a christian may think they understand the bible and
what it teaches, but without the Holy Spirits help it is hart to find
meaning in it.
>
>> A
>> Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
>> Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way.
>
>he could also attend a "religious organisation" that allows him to recognise
>that.
>
>> If Masonry
>> doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even care if you
>> have one, but they do,
>
>in an ideal world, nobody would care what religion you were... imagine how
>harmonious that would be.
Yayhhhh... we could all harmonize all the way to hell : (
Christians have always been persecuted because we broke the harmony
people have just living the way they want. The more compliant we get
with the world views the less effective we will be in spreading the
gospel.
>
>> and are therefor are a religious organization.
>> and therefore a Christian shouldn't attend.
>
>doesn't sound very "christian" to me...
Its the same reason a Christian shouldn't go to a bar or strip club.
Most don't for this reason, and any that do go should go because they
see it as a ministry opportunity.
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
>
>No, but I believe it is the only way to heaven, and so should everyone
>who calls them self a Christian.
While most of us non Christians understand that there is One Almighty
Creator, and it is impossible for any mortal human being to fully
understand Him in every detail.
I, personally, find it more than likely that He provided one way for
Christians to get to Heaven, and was VERY capable of providing other
ways for others who understand Him a bit differently.
>Pluralism just doesn't work. Almost
>every major religion claims to be the only way. So how can they all be
>right?
Actually, I haven't found any religion, other than certain sects of
Christianity, that teach that they have an exhaustive and exclusive
understanding of the Unknowable.
>Keep in mind this started as a thread to Christian to explain why I
>think they are going astray in masonry..
And just exactly why Do you believe that your fellow Christians, who
you do not know, and about whose lives you know nothing whatsoever,
"are going astray in Masonry"? A Masonry that you are not a member
of, and have shown nothing more than a passing familiarity with?
Furthermore, by what right do YOU claim the right to judge who is and
who is not "going astray"?
>I'm more than happy to defend my faith though.
If you want. You do so in a vacuum, however. No one is attacking it,
or even questioning it. You obviously believe what you believe, as
does everyone.
There is no question of that.
>Anyone who is not a christian may think they understand the bible and
>what it teaches, but without the Holy Spirits help it is hart to find
>meaning in it.
And you know this, how?
>Christians have always been persecuted because we broke the harmony
>people have just living the way they want.
<LOL>
>The more compliant we get
>with the world views the less effective we will be in spreading the
>gospel.
Actually, if you want to be "effective in spreading the gospel" you
should strongly consider the following:
1. Address your remarks to NON Christians. Christians are already
aware of the message in the Gospel. That's why they are Christians!
2. Lose the judgmental attitude. Let our Divine Creator tell us who
is "going astray" and who is not. It IS, after all, HIS determination
to make, isn't it?
3. Find an appropriate venue, and discuss the Gospel. Coming into a
newsgroup that deals with a fraternal organization, and discussing
your religious judgements, does not engender interest.
Your condemnations of your fellow Christians are unwelcome here, and
present the worst possible picture to us non Christians. Happily, I
understand that you do not represent the beautiful Christian belief in
any way, and are not representative of those who hold it near and
dear.
Got [Backspace]?
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
NormDstorm
wrote:
>In article <3d33f20b$0$232$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Bryan wrote:
>> "NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:lpo7jushso23g2qjb...@4ax.com...
>>
>> > Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
>>
>> what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
>
>Actually, Bryan, his assumption is wrong. Masonry does not "see" any religion
>at all. Its membership requirement specifies a belief in a Supreme Being (in
>some jurisdictions defined as 'God') but as to a 'position' on any religion,
>there simply is none.
Is the belief in some god not a religious view. You may not attend
that church but you still have to follow the views of some church to
believe a god.
>
>If there's no position on any religion, it's therefore impossible to "see(s)
>all religions the same." It would be like condemning the local supermarket
>because it "sees all religions the same"....
>
>> > A Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
>> > Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way.
>>
>> he could also attend a "religious organisation" that allows him to recognise
>> that.
>
>And, of course, since Masonry is not a religious organization, there's no
>conflict here.
Yah so I'v heard, still not convinced though.
>
>> > If Masonry doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even
>> > care if you have one, but they do,
>>
>> in an ideal world, nobody would care what religion you were... imagine how
>> harmonious that would be.
>
>I'd also point out that your correspondent again makes a false assumption from
>which to reach his false conclusion. Masonry doesn't care if you have 'a
>religion'. It requires of its applicants a belief in a Supreme Being but
>that's a LONG way from a requirement that you have a religion.
>
>These folks get so hung up in their dogma that they can't see the forest for
>the trees sometimes. Unable to accept that anyone might think even the
>slightest bit differently....
>
>What religion would he have us espouse? Would he be satisfied if all Masons
>professed a belief in the Roman Catholic Church? I think THAT is highly
>doubtful - but it's something that's conveniently overlooked.
>
>And has he made any rants about the Knights of Columbus or the Rotary Club? I
>doubt it....
I say pick one or drop the whole subject of god. I don't care which
one, it will just make it more obvious what the whole thing really is.
a belief in some god = a religious view, and that's a requirement for
membership.
Why not just in pose that members have a moral code or something.
>
>> > and are therefor are a religious organization.
>> > and therefore a Christian shouldn't attend.
>>
>> doesn't sound very "christian" to me...
>
>As with all 'religious intolerants', his false premise allows him to reach a
>false conclusion - easily!
I'm not intolerant, I most love all people, including you. my Bible
commands me to. For me to stand quietly and pray the same prayer as a
mormon, or a satanist standing beside me and have to pretend its to my
God just doesn't make any sense to me as a Christian.
>
>And, you'll note, that these 'drive-by proselytizers' never seem to give a
>name or let us know where we might go to share this miraculous fellowship they
>have.
I attend a evangelical church in Kelowna BC. but all you really need
is the Bible.
> Wonder why that is.... After all, if they're so sure that they've got it
>right,
I didn't come in here clamming to be right, just wanting to warn
other Christians about the pearls of being involved in your
organization.
But now that you mention it.............
> why don't they tell us *exactly* what religion we should believe in -
>and what SPECIFIC churches (not that gooey generality like 'any church which
>teaches the TRUE beliefs of Jesus Christ and then when we get one we think
>does, they tell us that we're heretics because we've not interpreted some
>particular phrase the same way they do in THEIR church) we should be
>attending.
Yes I agree this is a sad thing happening in the Christian church.
but your statement is true "any church which teaches the TRUE beliefs
of Jesus Christ" , and I know that is a hazzy line these days, but for
anyone who reads their Bible, asking the assistance of the Holy
Spirit for wisdom and understanding will know what is right and what
is wrong.
too many people feel they need God and go to some Church to find him,
then take everything they say as truth without checking it out for
them selves. I don't always agree with everything said in the pulpit
of my church, but I have read the bible for myself and have been able
to find a church that has a paster who runs inline with them.
I go there to worship God and get some teaching, but I always check
out what the pastor said against the Bible.
>
>Generalities.... Wonder why they can't get past that to the specifics....
>
>Fraternally,
> Ed King
>
> http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
>
> Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
>
(บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
Ed King
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:57:53 GMT, Ed King <edk...@masonicinfo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3d33f20b$0$232$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Bryan wrote:
> >> "NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:lpo7jushso23g2qjb...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> > Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
> >>
> >> what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
> >
> >Actually, Bryan, his assumption is wrong. Masonry does not "see" any religion
> >at all. Its membership requirement specifies a belief in a Supreme Being (in
> >some jurisdictions defined as 'God') but as to a 'position' on any religion,
> >there simply is none.
>
> Is the belief in some god not a religious view.
For an individual, it might be. However, Freemasonry does not 'believe' in 'some
god' as an organization.
> You may not attend that church but you still have to follow the views
> of some church to believe a god.
You do? There are a LOT of folks who don't believe the views of any particular
church, synagogue, or other organization, sect, denomination, or religion and yet
still believe in a Supreme Being.
Clearly we start from different perspectives. You should get out more!
> >If there's no position on any religion, it's therefore impossible to "see(s)
> >all religions the same." It would be like condemning the local supermarket
> >because it "sees all religions the same"....
No condemning the supermarket?
Aw, shucks....
> >> > A Christian should only attend a religious organization that recognizes
> >> > Jesus as "The way The truth and The life" not A way.
> >>
> >> he could also attend a "religious organisation" that allows him to recognise
> >> that.
> >
> >And, of course, since Masonry is not a religious organization, there's no
> >conflict here.
>
> Yah so I'v heard, still not convinced though.
Fine. Feel free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese as well if you
wish. Most individuals are not so intolerant that they hold onto their beliefs in
spite of clear and convincing evidence to the contrary.
> >> > If Masonry doesn't care what religion you are, why should they even
> >> > care if you have one, but they do,
> >>
> >> in an ideal world, nobody would care what religion you were... imagine how
> >> harmonious that would be.
> >
> >I'd also point out that your correspondent again makes a false assumption from
> >which to reach his false conclusion. Masonry doesn't care if you have 'a
> >religion'. It requires of its applicants a belief in a Supreme Being but
> >that's a LONG way from a requirement that you have a religion.
> >
> >These folks get so hung up in their dogma that they can't see the forest for
> >the trees sometimes. Unable to accept that anyone might think even the
> >slightest bit differently....
> >
> >What religion would he have us espouse? Would he be satisfied if all Masons
> >professed a belief in the Roman Catholic Church? I think THAT is highly
> >doubtful - but it's something that's conveniently overlooked.
> >
> >And has he made any rants about the Knights of Columbus or the Rotary Club? I
> >doubt it....
>
> I say pick one or drop the whole subject of god. I don't care which
> one, it will just make it more obvious what the whole thing really is.
You can say whatever you want. That, however, does not make it either what
Freemasonry is going to do NOR does it make it sensible.
So your complaint is that Freemasonry doesn't do things the way YOU think it
should be done, eh? Interesting basis on which to condemn something.
> a belief in some god = a religious view, and that's a requirement for
> membership.
False premise = false conclusion.
> Why not just in pose that members have a moral code or something.
And what kind of code would you propose that had no basis in an 'ultimate
judgement'?
> >> > and are therefor are a religious organization.
> >> > and therefore a Christian shouldn't attend.
> >>
> >> doesn't sound very "christian" to me...
> >
> >As with all 'religious intolerants', his false premise allows him to reach a
> >false conclusion - easily!
>
> I'm not intolerant,
Of COURSE not. I had you confused with the person who thinks that everybody ought
to do things the way HE believes they should be done. Sorry for the mistake.
> I most love all people, including you. my Bible commands me to.
I see.
> For me to stand quietly and pray the same prayer as a
> mormon, or a satanist standing beside me and have to pretend its to my
> God just doesn't make any sense to me as a Christian.
Well, I doubt you're going to be standing beside a satanist praying so perhaps you
might want to consider the foolishness of such a statement. Further, you would not
find one in Freemasonry so there's your two strikes.
YOU don't have to pretend anything when you're standing beside a Mormon or a
Catholic or a Buddhist. You pray to YOUR God. End of story. Do you have to despise
others for having a different belief system in order to make yours work?
> >And, you'll note, that these 'drive-by proselytizers' never seem to give a
> >name or let us know where we might go to share this miraculous fellowship they
> >have.
>
> I attend a evangelical church in Kelowna BC. but all you really need
> is the Bible.
Oh, no: we've been around on that MANY times before. I read the Bible one way, you
read it differently and WHAM: I'm wrong AGAIN!!!!! Gotta do better than that.
How about if I'm a Methodist: is that ok for you? If all Masons were Methodists
would that be alright? What if we let a couple of Unitarians in: is it ok then?
Now how about those stranger folks: the Lutherans.... Would it be alright if they
were praying beside you?
Well, if you agree with all of those, then what about <dare I even utter the
words?> Roman Catholics? Would *they* be OK for you to stand beside in a prayer?
> > Wonder why that is.... After all, if they're so sure that they've got it
> >right,
>
> I didn't come in here clamming to be right, just wanting to warn
> other Christians about the pearls of being involved in your
> organization.
Yes, you're probably the only person in three hundred years who's ever been 'up
tight' about this. Good thing you got here just in time. Why you've been SO
informative that I suspect there will be just MILLIONS of Masons running to resign
their membership.
> But now that you mention it.............
So you DO think you're right?
> > why don't they tell us *exactly* what religion we should believe in -
> >and what SPECIFIC churches (not that gooey generality like 'any church which
> >teaches the TRUE beliefs of Jesus Christ and then when we get one we think
> >does, they tell us that we're heretics because we've not interpreted some
> >particular phrase the same way they do in THEIR church) we should be
> >attending.
>
> Yes I agree this is a sad thing happening in the Christian church.
> but your statement is true "any church which teaches the TRUE beliefs
> of Jesus Christ" , and I know that is a hazzy line these days, but for
> anyone who reads their Bible, asking the assistance of the Holy
> Spirit for wisdom and understanding will know what is right and what
> is wrong.
OK, then: what about Billy Graham? Is HE ok? If we follow HIS teachings (and,
after all, he reads from the Bible a LOT!) will we be OK? If not, why not?
(Must be that hazzy <sic> line thing, huh?)
> too many people feel they need God and go to some Church to find him,
> then take everything they say as truth without checking it out for
> them selves.
You're certainly 100% correct on THAT!
> I don't always agree with everything said in the pulpit
> of my church, but I have read the bible for myself and have been able
> to find a church that has a paster who runs inline with them.
But the minute he disagrees - even if he's got FAR more theological education than
you have - it's the highway for one of the two of you, right?
Say, how much formal theological education do you have anyway? Do you speak any
languages of the Bible? If so, how many?
Oh, and on that Bible thing: is there a specific version we need to use? There
are, after all, a LOT of folks who say that anything other than KJ1611 is just
hoohey! And then there's a guy hanging around here who says that only Written
Torah counts. Have you been discussing your concept of 'Bible' with him? If not,
why not?
> I go there to worship God and get some teaching, but I always check
> out what the pastor said against the Bible.
Uh-huh.
And he'd better be right - in your opinion - or ELSE! Right?
NormDstorm
<br_...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:39:52 GMT, NormDstorm
><normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
>>
>>No, but I believe it is the only way to heaven, and so should everyone
>>who calls them self a Christian.
>
>While most of us non Christians understand that there is One Almighty
>Creator, and it is impossible for any mortal human being to fully
>understand Him in every detail.
>I, personally, find it more than likely that He provided one way for
>Christians to get to Heaven, and was VERY capable of providing other
>ways for others who understand Him a bit differently.
>
>>Pluralism just doesn't work. Almost
>>every major religion claims to be the only way. So how can they all be
>>right?
>
>Actually, I haven't found any religion, other than certain sects of
>Christianity, that teach that they have an exhaustive and exclusive
>understanding of the Unknowable.
You obviously haven't looked to deep into any others than.
>
>>Keep in mind this started as a thread to Christian to explain why I
>>think they are going astray in masonry..
>
>And just exactly why Do you believe that your fellow Christians, who
>you do not know, and about whose lives you know nothing whatsoever,
>"are going astray in Masonry"? A Masonry that you are not a member
>of, and have shown nothing more than a passing familiarity with?
It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
and from those connections there is a strong indication that the
founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
why the organization is the way it is, and most of you low level
masons don't even have a clue where your heading down this road.
>
>Furthermore, by what right do YOU claim the right to judge who is and
>who is not "going astray"?
>
>>I'm more than happy to defend my faith though.
>
>If you want. You do so in a vacuum, however. No one is attacking it,
>or even questioning it. You obviously believe what you believe, as
>does everyone.
>There is no question of that.
>
>>Anyone who is not a christian may think they understand the bible and
>>what it teaches, but without the Holy Spirits help it is hart to find
>>meaning in it.
>
>And you know this, how?
Before I was a christian I read the bible and it didn't have much
impact. It seemed like a neat little book with a bunch of cute stories
and some rules for living your life. Once I came to the realization
of who Christ was and what he did. The Bible made allot more sense
and I found meaning for my life in almost every passage I read.
>
>>Christians have always been persecuted because we broke the harmony
>>people have just living the way they want.
>
><LOL>
>
>>The more compliant we get
>>with the world views the less effective we will be in spreading the
>>gospel.
>
>Actually, if you want to be "effective in spreading the gospel" you
>should strongly consider the following:
>1. Address your remarks to NON Christians. Christians are already
>aware of the message in the Gospel. That's why they are Christians!
>2. Lose the judgmental attitude. Let our Divine Creator tell us who
>is "going astray" and who is not. It IS, after all, HIS determination
>to make, isn't it?
By the time he lets you know weather you did ok or not it will be the
final judgment and too late. he left us the Bible and his Holy Spirit
on earth to do just that. But it is the responsibility of Christs
Church to edify one another.
>3. Find an appropriate venue, and discuss the Gospel. Coming into a
>newsgroup that deals with a fraternal organization, and discussing
>your religious judgements, does not engender interest.
Well with a thread of 30+ replies I would say there was some intrest.
I would have been just as happy to have left my original post and had
it serve its original purpose of making Christians think about the
things they do in Biblical terms. but people decided that my view was
incorrect and decided they needed to correct me. That's what user net
is all about.
Don't you love it. :)
>
>Your condemnations of your fellow Christians are unwelcome here, and
>present the worst possible picture to us non Christians. Happily, I
>understand that you do not represent the beautiful Christian belief in
>any way, and are not representative of those who hold it near and
>dear.
I'm not condemning them, I just know there are allot of uninformed
Christians who don't read their bible enough to know your organization
is not where a Christian should be spending there time.
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>Is the belief in some god not a religious view.
No, a belief in the existence of something is not an attempt to define
or describe it, nor is it a relationship with it.
>You may not attend
>that church but you still have to follow the views of some church to
>believe a god.
Not at all, in any way. One may have a belief in a Supreme Being and
never have HEARD of a church, much less follow the views of any.
>>And, of course, since Masonry is not a religious organization, there's no
>>conflict here.
>
>Yah so I'v heard, still not convinced though.
Oh well.
>>And has he made any rants about the Knights of Columbus or the Rotary Club? I
>>doubt it....
>
>I say pick one or drop the whole subject of god. I don't care which
>one, it will just make it more obvious what the whole thing really is.
No.
>a belief in some god = a religious view, and that's a requirement for
>membership.
No, belief in a Supreme Being = a requirement for membership in
Scouting, Masonry and many other fraternal organizations.
Whereas a relationship with, and concept of the nature of, that
Supreme Being = religious view.
>Why not just in pose that members have a moral code or something.
We can "in pose" whatever we like. If what we choose to "in pose"
doesn't suit you, don't join.
You couldn't anyway.
>>As with all 'religious intolerants', his false premise allows him to reach a
>>false conclusion - easily!
>
>I'm not intolerant,
<LOL>
>I most love all people, including you. my Bible
>commands me to. For me to stand quietly and pray the same prayer as a
>mormon, or a satanist standing beside me and have to pretend its to my
>God just doesn't make any sense to me as a Christian.
Well, everyone has their own understanding of Our Divine Creator, and
if the understandings of others doesn't make sense to you, who do you
think that says something about, them or you?
And what do you think it says?
>> Wonder why that is.... After all, if they're so sure that they've got it
>>right,
>
>I didn't come in here clamming to be right, just wanting to warn
>other Christians about the pearls of being involved in your
>organization.
Plenty of pearls, that's for sure. Some rubies, too.
>Yes I agree this is a sad thing happening in the Christian church.
>but your statement is true "any church which teaches the TRUE beliefs
>of Jesus Christ" , and I know that is a hazzy line these days, but for
>anyone who reads their Bible, asking the assistance of the Holy
>Spirit for wisdom and understanding will know what is right and what
>is wrong.
Then why do you have such screwy ideas?
Oh, that's right. Never mind.
Got [Backspace]?
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
Gene Zippy
wrote:
>YOU don't have to pretend anything when you're standing beside a Mormon or a
>Catholic or a Buddhist.
Ed, read this again, and then read his posts. I would submit that the
above is an untested assumption.
>Do you have to despise
>others for having a different belief system in order to make yours work?
Reads his other posts. He has personally condemned everyone else to
hell for all eternity.
Got [Backspace]?
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
John Baldwin
little of substance in your reply, aside from the fact that we agree
to accept brother______'s demit for whatever reason.
Again the Baldwin version, by way of response to Christian brother
demitting for finding lack of Christ.
Bob Pringle
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:14:34 +0100, "bryan" <burz...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:lpo7jushso23g2qjb...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
> >
> >what's wrong with that? is your religion 'better' than all others?
>
> No, but I believe it is the only way to heaven, and so should everyone
> who calls them self a Christian.
<huge snip>
Well bully for you! You want to hope...and perhaps pray that you are
right...otherwise...you may be the one left out of heaven.
Bob Pringle
St. Marks # 5
Bob Pringle
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> I'm not condemning them, I just know there are allot of uninformed
> Christians who don't read their bible enough to know your organization
> is not where a Christian should be spending there time.
<snip>
Ummm...yes...you are condemning your fellow Christians...plus multiple other
faiths as well. And you call yourself informed? You state that you have no
'grand" knowledge of Masonry, yet you blast it, you believe that your faith
is the only "right" one.
Lets put it this way, learn about things before you condemn them.
Bob Pringle
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> As this isn't the right forum, I'm not going to attempt to prove the
> Christian religion. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
> Bible Old and New Testament is the inspired Word of God. I believe
> that every word is true not out of blind faith, but from years of
> scrutiny and research.
Sorry Normstorm, but religions are based on FAITH. Do all the scrutiny and
research you want, but it's your faith that makes it right for you.
Robin L. Gooch
Don't you tell me about what this forum is for. I'm a mason; I know what
it's about
> I'm not going to attempt to prove the
> Christian religion.
Good move on your part
> I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
> Bible Old and New Testament is the inspired Word of God.
That's your business. I could care less.
> I believe that every word is true not out of blind faith, but from years
of scrutiny and research.
All I did was cut and paste my research. Cut and paste yours or do you
prefer to retreat.
Now get out of here and find some other place to bother people.
Jack Hickey
<ros...@ih2000.net> wrote:
>> I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
>> Bible Old and New Testament is the inspired Word of God.
So do I.
However, I've yet to find one reference to Freemasonry anywhere
in Scripture.
Jack Hickey
Master, Isaiah Thomas Lodge
Worcester MA USA
www.geocities.com/isaiahthomas2001/
"Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt" - Caesar
Ed King
His name is Eugene Goldman, Mr. Baldwin. Do you gain pleasure from
insulting a person by mocking their name?
> who the hell cares what you think is appropriate?
Actually, I think that most Masons here care about what Gene things
because he's a _legitimate_ Mason who understands Freemasonry and how it
works. He doesn't attempt to explain to people how to leave the
Salvation Army nor does he give advice (to the best of my knowledge at
least) on how one might explain their religious convictions to the bank
which has just rejected their check due to lack of funds.
You see, Mr. Baldwin, Gene's idea of what's appropriate for Masons is in
accordance with Masonic protocol and policy - something you have no
knowledge of, save whatever fanciful concoction you imagine from day to
day. Your fantasy of what to say is absolutely useless - except for
inciting further anger on the part of an individual whose mind is
already made up.
Perhaps that's what they do in your dance club, Mr. Baldwin, but it's
now what's done in Freemasonry.
> There's little of substance in your reply, aside from the fact that
> we agree to accept brother______'s demit for whatever reason.
Why does there need to be "substance"? In many jurisdictions, a request
for a demit is something which can not, by either by-laws or Grand
Master edict, be denied. If a Masonic Grand Lodge indicates that a
request must be honored (and in at least one jurisdiction I know of, it
must be dealt with at the very next business meeting after receipt) then
why does one need to create "substance" in addition??? Think that
they're going to make the retiring Brother slap himself on the forehead
and say, "Wow! Why didn't *I* think of that?"
Well, maybe you do - but that too would show how little you know about
an organization you don't belong to.
> Again the Baldwin version, by way of response to Christian brother
> demitting for finding lack of Christ.
Who cares, really. Do you think that by repeating this drivel it will
make it any more meaningful to a Mason either sending or receiving it?
Do you imagine that Lodge Secretaries will now be adopting it instead of
using the standard, 'Dear Mr. Smith, By vote of XYZ Lodge #123, your
request for a demit has been honored and a certificate to that effect is
enclosed herewith.'? Don't hold your breath....
> Respectable ___________,
<ROFL> "Respectable" --- Hey, ANYBODY????? Does your Lodge use that
term in addressing someone???? I can't even find it in my Webster's
'Guide to Office Letters'.....
Why not just leave Masonry to the Masons, Mr. Baldwin, and content
yourself with something else, eh?
<Balance of foolishness snipped yet again while Mr. Baldwin tries to
think of a cute name to call me now....>
Ed King
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
Jim Bennie
> As someone clamming to be a Christian, It sounds like masonry is the
> center point of your life.
Why? Because I point out hypocrisy? I see you couldn't refute it,
and instead cast aspersions on my religious beliefs. I'm not
surprised.
Jim Bennie
IPM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver
Jim Bennie
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:37:50 GMT, NormDstorm
> <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>Your the mason you tell me. Masonry sees all religions the same.
> Poppycock. Balderdash. The fraternity of Freemasonry doesn't "see"
> religions at all. The fraternity recognizes that an individual's
> religious beliefs are a private matter, best left between them and
> their Divine Creator, and leaves the matter right where it belongs.
Doesn't your nation's Constitution guarantee such, Gene? Why don't
chaps like Schnobelen urge Christians to "get out" of the United
States, just like they urge Christians to get out of Freemasonry
for the exact same reason?
Jim Bennie
> <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>None of the institutions above FORBID me from expressing my beliefs to
>>my fellow man (as far as I know they don't)
> Nor does the fraternity of Freemasonry.
How true, Gene. I expressed my beliefs in this very thread earlier,
as I have done so on a number of occasions. Obviously, Freemasonry
doesn't forbid me from doing so. Nor does it tell me how to worship
the Creator, which is more than I can say for some people purporting
to speak for Him,
Jim Bennie
> It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
> where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
> and from those connections there is a strong indication that the
> founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
> why the organization is the way it is, and most of you low level
> masons don't even have a clue where your heading down this road.
I see. Someone who has no grand knowledge of Freemasonry up in
Kelowna has it all figured out, but millions upon millions of
men over two centuries "don't have a clue".
> Before I was a christian I read the bible and it didn't have much
> impact. It seemed like a neat little book with a bunch of cute stories
> and some rules for living your life. Once I came to the realization
> of who Christ was and what he did. The Bible made allot more sense
> and I found meaning for my life in almost every passage I read.
I'd pleased to see you're secure in your faith.
> I'm not condemning them, I just know there are allot of uninformed
> Christians who don't read their bible enough to know your organization
> is not where a Christian should be spending there time.
Actually, you're being presumptuous again. The Bible says nothing
about fraternal organisations.
Jim Bennie
> Why does there need to be "substance"? In many jurisdictions, a request
> for a demit is something which can not, by either by-laws or Grand
> Master edict, be denied.
As a man joins of his own free will and accord, Ed, isn't he
entitled to leave the same way?
Jim Bennie
IPM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver
(oh wait, I'm not supposed to tell you my Lodge ;)
Jim Bennie
> In article <ajm8ju0r8o1uip8n0...@4ax.com>, NormDstorm wrote:
>> You may not attend that church but you still have to follow the views
>> of some church to believe a god.
> You do?
Apparently not, Ed.
>> but all you really need is the Bible.
You don't need a church. Just a Bible. But you actually need something
more than that, it seems. You need to have someone come on Usenet and
interpret it for you because you obviously don't have it right if you
say there's nothing incompatible between a fraternal organisation (ie
the Freemasons, Oddfellows or Knights of Columbus) with Christianity.
Richard White
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:24:26 +0100, "Richard White"
> <whi...@mailops.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> >> are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
> >> my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
> >> commandments.
> >
> >Oops! I thought you understood a little bit about Christianity? Since
when
> >did Jesus ("who gave himself for me") give the Commandments?
>
> Jesus said
> John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Elsewhere Moses is reported as getting them from God, not Jesus. What's
more, in Moses' time, Jesus did not exist.
Of course, in the above quote, you don't give the context: is Jesus
ostensibly speaking purely on his own behalf, or on behalf of God as a
whole? The latter would be consistent and make sense.
[...snipped...]
Ed King
> Ed King <edk...@masonicinfo.com> wrote:
> > Why does there need to be "substance"? In many jurisdictions, a request
> > for a demit is something which can not, by either by-laws or Grand
> > Master edict, be denied.
>
> As a man joins of his own free will and accord, Ed, isn't he
> entitled to leave the same way?
Not according to the erudite Mr. Baldwin it appears. Whack them on the head
on the way out the door as well and kick them in the butt!
It's my understanding that in some jurisdictions a request for a demit does
not even have to be read before the lodge. It's an 'administrative matter',
plainly and simply.
And beyond that - as has been noted - if one *truly* wants to leave, they
should be _resigning_ rather than requesting a demit which in some
jurisdictions leaves one still a Mason but simply unaffiliated.
> Jim Bennie
> IPM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver
> (oh wait, I'm not supposed to tell you my Lodge ;)
<chuckle>
Fraternally,
Ed King
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 11:27:31 +0200, "Malcolm Tucker"
> <mtu...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
> >
> >"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message news:4b92jugrfs0d8d4rf...@4ax.com...
> >> This is a sample letter of resignation from the Masonic lodge, taken
> >> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
> >
> >I hope you were careful to obtain permission to reproduce
> >the authors copyrighted work.
>
> None of the institutions above FORBID me from expressing my beliefs to
> not be proper for a Christian to attend them. Or it is their
> responsibility to disregard those rules, at the risk of persecution in
> order to obey Christ.
>
> (บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
> ซ.ทฐท. N d S .ทฐท.ป
> (ธ.ทบ(ธ.ทจ* *จท.ธ)บท.ธ)
Is it just my eyes or did you neatly avoid addressing the issues
of copyright?
Mr. Schnoebelen really needs those funds to help his 'ministry',
you know. Why aren't you helping out by not using copyright
material???
Have you bought his book about identification of dirty bombs yet?
I'm amazed at how he can become an expert on so many things just
when they become newsworthy - and with no prior evidence ever of
any training, experience, or exposure to those things. Just
amazing!
Oh, and while you're bandying his 'letter' about, perhaps you'd
care to comment on his 'life history' which I've outlined at
www.masonicinfo.com/schnoebelen.htm It's be great if you could
clear up some of those inconsistencies - since you're such a
supporter of his after all....
Ed King
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:15:20 GMT, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.ท.
> <br_...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >Actually, I haven't found any religion, other than certain sects of
> >Christianity, that teach that they have an exhaustive and exclusive
> >understanding of the Unknowable.
>
> You obviously haven't looked to deep into any others than.
So could you name some religions - other than certain sects of
Christianity - that teach that they have an exhaustive and exclusive
understanding of the Unknowable?
Oh, and perhaps you could toss in your theological/philosophical
scholastic credentials just so we'll know that you've got some basis for
your judgement.
> >>Keep in mind this started as a thread to Christian to explain why I
> >>think they are going astray in masonry..
> >
> >And just exactly why Do you believe that your fellow Christians, who
> >you do not know, and about whose lives you know nothing whatsoever,
> >"are going astray in Masonry"? A Masonry that you are not a member
> >of, and have shown nothing more than a passing familiarity with?
>
> It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
> where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
Perhaps you could tell us about your knowledge then? Clearly it must be
FAR more than we Masons know, eh?
> and from those connections there is a strong indication that the
> founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
> why the organization is the way it is,
Who were the founders of Freemasonry? Could you identify them for us
please? This should be a very helpful piece of information.
Oh, and don't forget to let us know what those plans are too, ok?
Considering how the world has changed in 300+ years, this should be very
interesting as well.
> and most of you low level masons don't even have a clue where
> your heading down this road.
Of course we don't. We're just the dumb toadys who haven't a clue. Some
day, we might become those "high ranking Masons" ourselves but then we'll
be too brainwashed to ever want to admit the horrors we're now exposed to.
Of course, while 5 million or so Masons (some 8400 made in Ohio in one
class just a few weeks ago as well) are FAR too dumb to figure this out
but you - a non-Mason with (to date at least) no evidence of any
credentials for your judgement - have gotten it all figured out. You're a
pretty impressive guy, Mr. Hand!
By the way (if I'm not imposing too very much) could you tell us who you
consider "high ranking Masons"???
> >>Anyone who is not a christian may think they understand the bible and
> >>what it teaches, but without the Holy Spirits help it is hart to find
> >>meaning in it.
> >
> >And you know this, how?
>
> Before I was a christian I read the bible and it didn't have much
> impact. It seemed like a neat little book with a bunch of cute stories
> and some rules for living your life. Once I came to the realization
> of who Christ was and what he did. The Bible made allot more sense
> and I found meaning for my life in almost every passage I read.
And your current theological credentials include..... What degrees from
what schools?
Or are you 'self-taught'....??
You know, if I was about to build a huge, expensive, once-in-a-lifetime
house, I wouldn't go out and get all my advice from an engineer who was
self-taught - would you?
> >2. Lose the judgmental attitude. Let our Divine Creator tell us who
> >is "going astray" and who is not. It IS, after all, HIS determination
> >to make, isn't it?
>
> By the time he lets you know weather you did ok or not it will be the
> final judgment and too late. he left us the Bible and his Holy Spirit
> on earth to do just that. But it is the responsibility of Christs
> Church to edify one another.
Freemasonry is a fraternity. Your discussion/argument/complaint in this
area has nothing to do with the organization of Freemasonry any more than
it has to do with the organization of British Parliament.
> >3. Find an appropriate venue, and discuss the Gospel. Coming into a
> >newsgroup that deals with a fraternal organization, and discussing
> >your religious judgements, does not engender interest.
>
> Well with a thread of 30+ replies I would say there was some intrest.
Actually, if you look at it, you'll find that most of them are from Masons
who are attempting to show you just how silly your arguments are. Volume
does not make right, you know.
> I would have been just as happy to have left my original post and had
> it serve its original purpose of making Christians think about the
> things they do in Biblical terms. but people decided that my view was
> incorrect and decided they needed to correct me.
And you, not wanting to be shown absolutely wrong, keep injecting more and
more foolishness (like this 'low level Mason stuff, for example).
I'm still waiting to hear about your relationship with Schnoebelen, by the
way....
> That's what user net is all about.
>
> Don't you love it. :)
Well, it's fun until truth starts getting in the way of people's fantasies
and they go running off with their tails between their legs!
> >Your condemnations of your fellow Christians are unwelcome here, and
> >present the worst possible picture to us non Christians. Happily, I
> >understand that you do not represent the beautiful Christian belief in
> >any way, and are not representative of those who hold it near and
> >dear.
>
> I'm not condemning them, I just know there are allot of uninformed
> Christians who don't read their bible enough to know your organization
> is not where a Christian should be spending there time.
> (บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
> ซ.ทฐท. N d S .ทฐท.ป
> (ธ.ทบ(ธ.ทจ* *จท.ธ)บท.ธ)
Perhaps you could point to the section in the Bible which tells everone
all about Freemasonry specifically?
I know there are a LOT of questions here: I surely hope you'll prove your
true Christian devotion to truth and will answer each and every one of
them.
Ed King
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
Gene Zippy
<ros...@ih2000.net> wrote:
>Don't you tell me about what this forum is for. I'm a mason; I know what
>it's about
Are you?
Wonderful. Welcome.
It is customary here, as elsewhere among Brethren, to offer your Lodge
information. Mine is in my sig, but to save you the trouble, I am a
past Master of Blackmer #442 and also of Black Mountain #845, both in
San Diego, Grand Lodge of California.
And you are from...?
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Gene Zippy
> <br_...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >Actually, I haven't found any religion, other than certain sects of
> >Christianity, that teach that they have an exhaustive and exclusive
> >understanding of the Unknowable.
>
> You obviously haven't looked to deep into any others than.
Ah. Well enlighten me, as I am only familiar with a dozen or so
religious frameworks. Aside from Christianity, what religion teaches
that it has an exclusive grasp of the ultimate Truth?
> It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
> where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
I see. What, exactly, ARE our "roots"?
Historians - professional and amateur - have been trying to determine
them for quite a while, but to everyone else, they are lost to
antiquity.
What knowledge do you claim to have that no one else does?
> and from those connections there is a strong indication that the
> founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
> why the organization is the way it is,
And from your posts, there is a strong indication that you have "no
grand knowledge" of neither Masonry, Christianity, nor what your posts
say about your beliefs.
> and most of you low level masons don't even have a clue where
> your heading down this road.
Oh, yes, the "low level Masons" nonsense again.
BTW, Masonry, being the proper name of an organization, merits
capitalization.
Anyway, perhaps you could share with us just who the non "low level
Masons" are, and how they get to rise above their "low level". Also,
I am curious as to what means you used to gain this knowledge that
millions of actual members of the fraternity have been totally unaware
of. Perhaps you would consent to share with us? Testify as to your
understandings, enlighten us about our fraternity - about which you
"have no grand knowledge"?
> >>Anyone who is not a christian may think they understand the bible and
> >>what it teaches, but without the Holy Spirits help it is hart to find
> >>meaning in it.
> >
> >And you know this, how?
>
> Before I was a christian I read the bible and it didn't have much
> impact. It seemed like a neat little book with a bunch of cute stories
> and some rules for living your life. Once I came to the realization
> of who Christ was and what he did. The Bible made allot more sense
> and I found meaning for my life in almost every passage I read.
I see. And that experience somehow allowed you to be privy to what
"Anyone who is not a christian may think" and what they understand and
what they don't?
Fascinating. Please do tell us more about how you come to this
knowledge.
> >2. Lose the judgmental attitude. Let our Divine Creator tell us who
> >is "going astray" and who is not. It IS, after all, HIS determination
> >to make, isn't it?
>
> By the time he lets you know weather you did ok or not it will be the
> final judgment and too late.
I see. Your judgements are noted, and will be given all due
consideration.
>he left us the Bible and his Holy Spirit
> on earth to do just that. But it is the responsibility of Christs
> Church to edify one another.
Oh, you are doing this to "edify" other Christians?
> >3. Find an appropriate venue, and discuss the Gospel. Coming into a
> >newsgroup that deals with a fraternal organization, and discussing
> >your religious judgements, does not engender interest.
>
> Well with a thread of 30+ replies I would say there was some intrest.
Only in correcting your many errors and allowing you to show everyone
interested enough to read just who and what you are - and let them
judge for themselves.
Just yesterday, BTW, I had lunch with another lurker who will be
applying for membership, largely as a direct result of your posts.
Thank you.
> I would have been just as happy to have left my original post and had
> it serve its original purpose of making Christians think about the
> things they do in Biblical terms.
But that is not what many were thinking about your judgements and
condemnations about a fraternity you "have no grand knowledge of".
Care to guess what they WERE thinking?
>but people decided that my view was
> incorrect and decided they needed to correct me.
Well, it would be wrong to let your many and obvious errors stand
unaddressed, wouldn't it?
If someone were to believe such nonsense, it would be unfortunate
indeed.
> That's what user net is all about.
>
> Don't you love it. :)
Actually, it is *usenet*, and yes, I enjoy it very much. I
particularly enjoy posters like you, who come in to a newsgroup about
an organization you "have no grand knowledge of" and proceed to judge
us all and condemn us all to eternal damnation, just because we are
members of a fraternity.
Very entertaining. Pity some people might misunderstand your posts as
coming from a Christian.
> >Your condemnations of your fellow Christians are unwelcome here, and
> >present the worst possible picture to us non Christians. Happily, I
> >understand that you do not represent the beautiful Christian belief in
> >any way, and are not representative of those who hold it near and
> >dear.
>
> I'm not condemning them,
<LOL>
" By the time he lets you know weather you did ok or not it will be
the final judgment and too late."
Not a judgement, huh?
<LOL>
>I just know there are allot of uninformed
> Christians who don't read their bible enough to know your organization
> is not where a Christian should be spending there time.
Statements like that prompt several questions.
1. "I just know there are allot of uninformed Christians"
How do you claim to know who is informed of what?
2. " who don't read their bible enough to know"
How do you claim to know how much they read what, and how much insight
that reading gives them?
3. "your organization is not where a Christian should be spending
there time."
Since the fraternity of Freemasonry is not mentioned in Scripture,
indeed NO fraternity is mentioned there, on what do you base this
judgement?
Why should "Christians not be spending their time" as members of a
fraternity? How do you claim to have come to this knowledge?
If "Christians not be spending their time" as members of a fraternity,
should "Christians be spending their time" in usenet? Why or why not?
Finally, one question in general. What is it that you believe gives
you the responsibility to judge an organization you "have no grand
knowledge of", and Christians you do not know and have never met?
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Gene Zippy
wrote:
>Goldy-locks, who the hell cares what you think is appropriate?
I presume you were addressing me, Mr. Baldwin. However, you
misspelled my name. It is "Goldman".
If, however, you were addressing someone else, please forgive my
error.
>There's little of substance in your reply, aside from the fact that we agree
>to accept brother______'s demit for whatever reason.
You completely misunderstand both my reply, and what actually happens
in Masonry (as it exists in the real world). I will try to explain
one more time.
The Master, and the Lodge in turn, have no option to accept or reject
a dimit. It is not a request. The member submits it and *it is
accepted*. No "reasons", no options, no responses other than a
confirmation that the dimit has been received and the date it became
effective.
Gene Zippy
wrote:
>His name is Eugene Goldman, Mr. Baldwin. Do you gain pleasure from
>insulting a person by mocking their name?
It would seem that he does. If he were a Mason, I would expect better
from him.
>Actually, I think that most Masons here care about what Gene things
>because he's a _legitimate_ Mason who understands Freemasonry and how it
>works. He doesn't attempt to explain to people how to leave the
>Salvation Army nor does he give advice (to the best of my knowledge at
>least) on how one might explain their religious convictions to the bank
>which has just rejected their check due to lack of funds.
No. Only when a store runs out of a sale item.
>You see, Mr. Baldwin, Gene's idea of what's appropriate for Masons is in
>accordance with Masonic protocol and policy - something you have no
>knowledge of, save whatever fanciful concoction you imagine from day to
>day. Your fantasy of what to say is absolutely useless - except for
>inciting further anger on the part of an individual whose mind is
>already made up.
<LOL>
I can just see it.
"I dimit."
"Well, you are not a good person."
"Up yours."
Yea, real constructive.
Perhaps that is why the rules and regulations are as they are.
"I dimit."
"Dimit received, effective the date of your letter. Should you later
change your mind, please contact this Lodge."
>Perhaps that's what they do in your dance club, Mr. Baldwin, but it's
>now what's done in Freemasonry.
At least not in the real world.
><ROFL> "Respectable" --- Hey, ANYBODY????? Does your Lodge use that
>term in addressing someone???? I can't even find it in my Webster's
>'Guide to Office Letters'.....
I have never heard that honorific used in Masonry, or indeed anywhere
else, other than Mr. Baldwin's fanciful idea of a response to a dimit.
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Gene Zippy
<jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:
>> Poppycock. Balderdash. The fraternity of Freemasonry doesn't "see"
>> religions at all. The fraternity recognizes that an individual's
>> religious beliefs are a private matter, best left between them and
>> their Divine Creator, and leaves the matter right where it belongs.
>
>Doesn't your nation's Constitution guarantee such, Gene?
It does.
>Why don't
>chaps like Schnobelen urge Christians to "get out" of the United
>States, just like they urge Christians to get out of Freemasonry
>for the exact same reason?
They don't want to get rid of it, they want to change it, remake it in
the image of their imagination, where everything that is not
compulsory (like believing as they do) is forbidden (like personal
freedoms).
Fish Taco Joe Schmuckatelli
<ros...@ih2000.net> wrote:
>> I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
>> Bible Old and New Testament is the inspired Word of God.
>
>That's your business. I could care less.
...meaning you DO care. At least a little bit.
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| Solid like Linux
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Use your bandwidth. If you don't, it'll go stale.
If Bill Gates had a dime for every time a Windows box
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If you can read this .sig, you're too damn close.
Save a cow. Eat a vegetarian!
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth Driver
> In article <517a6846.02071...@posting.google.com>, John
> Baldwin wrote:
>
> > Goldy-locks,
>
> His name is Eugene Goldman, Mr. Baldwin. Do you gain pleasure from
> insulting a person by mocking their name?
Not at all, Brother Ed. I believe Mr. Baldwin was addressing Gene in
Antient & Primitive Oriental, a language peculiar to his claimed
Masonic Rite.
In the fragment quoted above, the '-locks' is silent; 'Go' (should be
an umlaut, circumflex accent, and triple oak-leaf cluster over the
'o') is a prefix indicating the pluperfect compound vocative case; and
'-ldy' (accent-grave over all three letters, plus no less than
eighteen subscript-iotas under the 'd') means 'man'. 'Gold' is
implied from context.
[I guess you can kind of see why the Rite is dying out; who but the
hardiest student of Antient and Primitive lore could master the
intricacies thereof?]
S&F,
Gareth - (not ancient, still primitive)
KIV11
>It's my understanding that in some jurisdictions a request for a demit does
>not even have to be read before the lodge. It's an 'administrative matter',
>plainly and simply.
>
Under the jurisdiction of the GL of NY, F&AM, if a Brother's dues are up to
date and he submits a request for dimit, the letter is usually read, in Lodge,
for information purposes only, no vote is taken. The dimit must be granted. The
Secretary then sends the appropriate notification to the Grand Secretary's
Office to have the dimit prepared accordingly so it can be forwarded to the
Brother.
George K.
NormDstorm
<whi...@mailops.com> wrote:
>
>"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:rnq7jucoc5ka17vbs...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:24:26 +0100, "Richard White"
>> <whi...@mailops.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >
>[...snipped...]
>> >> are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
>> >> my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
>> >> commandments.
>> >
>> >Oops! I thought you understood a little bit about Christianity? Since
>when
>> >did Jesus ("who gave himself for me") give the Commandments?
>>
>> Jesus said
>> John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
>Elsewhere Moses is reported as getting them from God, not Jesus.
> What's more, in Moses' time, Jesus did not exist.
Jesus has always been, he just came in human form only 2000 years ago.
There are plenty of times in the old Testament where Christ manifested
in physical form. he was represented in many different ways.
>
>Of course, in the above quote, you don't give the context: is Jesus
>ostensibly speaking purely on his own behalf, or on behalf of God as a
>whole? The latter would be consistent and make sense.
>
Jesus is God therefore they are His commandments. Originally God
wrote the commandments on the tablets with his own finger, but in
Moses rage after coming down from the mountain and seeing the
israelites worshiping the golden cow he broke them in to pieces and
had to rewrite them himself.
Feel free to read the following to find the context. but I believe
there isn't much to interpret there its plainly obvious that anyone
that follows Christ and loves Him will desire to do what He has asked
us to do. The law doesn't save us but neither douse it condemn us.
It still pleases God when we don't sin.
John 14:1-31 KJV John 14:
<Jesus speaking>
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in
me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how
can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from
henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth
us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet
hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father
that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else
believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works
that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the
Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another
Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it
seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth
with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. {comfortless:
or, orphans}
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me:
because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and
I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that
loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I
will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt
manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my
words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and
make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye
hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will
send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things
to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world
giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let
it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto
you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the
Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is
come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this
world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the
Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
David Simpson
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:14:34 +0100, "bryan" <burz...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
[snip]
>
>Christians have always been persecuted because we broke the harmony
>people have just living the way they want. The more compliant we get
>with the world views the less effective we will be in spreading the
>gospel.
>
Funny! I thought that Christians did most of the persecuting,
especially since they gained control of the Roman Empire.
>>
[snip]
>
>Its the same reason a Christian shouldn't go to a bar or strip club.
>Most don't for this reason, and any that do go should go because they
>see it as a ministry opportunity.
Where does it say that a Christian shouldn't have a drink if he wants
one or watch a stripper if he likes that sort of thing? Provided the
strippers are not being degraded by the experience then nothing is
wrong with the sight of an attractive lady removing her clothes in
time, or not, with music.
Most of the degrading, of course, comes from the puritanical,
fundamentalist Christians who seem to like forbidding any things that
are enjoyable. I rather pity them.
All of the above has no relationship to Freemasonry since freemasonry
does not tell a man how, who, when, where or why he should worship.
That is the province of a church, or religion, and the freemason is
told to do his worship in the manner of his own religion.
--
Regards
David Simpson (Remove "farook" to reply)
(Unattached MM)
Bad manners should not be a capital crime ...
for a first offence.
Robert Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"
David Simpson
<whi...@mailops.com> wrote:
>
>"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:rnq7jucoc5ka17vbs...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:24:26 +0100, "Richard White"
>> <whi...@mailops.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >
>[...snipped...]
>> >> are called to that kind of radical discipleship. If I am to be true to
>> >> my Lord who loved me and who gave Himself for me, then I must keep His
>> >> commandments.
>> >
>> >Oops! I thought you understood a little bit about Christianity? Since
>when
>> >did Jesus ("who gave himself for me") give the Commandments?
>>
>> Jesus said
>> John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
>Elsewhere Moses is reported as getting them from God, not Jesus. What's
>more, in Moses' time, Jesus did not exist.
>
>Of course, in the above quote, you don't give the context: is Jesus
>ostensibly speaking purely on his own behalf, or on behalf of God as a
>whole? The latter would be consistent and make sense.
>
>[...snipped...]
>
Aren't you forgetting the two commandments that Christ is credited
with?
1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart etc.
2. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
This is in the lead up to the parable of the Good Samaritan.
David Simpson
Of course I don't agree with Stormy Normy for the most part.
NormDstorm
Refute what the evidence is in the original letter. If have read any
of Bills work or heard him speak you would probably have a different't
view. Don't just go blindly through life... Check out what he has to
say and judge it against the Bible for yourself. If you think he's a
liar just because one of your biased brothers told you so you may want
to double check. Ed King's web sight is quite biased and he doesn't
have a thing to say about the validity of Bills views on Masonry he
only attacks his credibility in other areas. Which I might add is
pretty week the minor facts in the timeliness of his life, which if
you'v heard him speak makes sense.
I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
on in the higher levels of Masonry.
You can check out Bill's site here
http://www.withoneaccord.org/
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>Refute what the evidence is in the original letter.
Already done, in this very thread, by several people, in several
different ways.
>If have read any
>of Bills work or heard him speak you would probably have a different't
>view.
I've read some, and found it to be factually void and rather lacking
in credibility.
>Don't just go blindly through life... Check out what he has to
>say and judge it against the Bible for yourself. If you think he's a
>liar just because one of your biased brothers told you so you may want
>to double check.
Absolutely correct. However, that is not why he is a liar. Bill is a
liar because he deliberately fabricates supposed facts in order to
create a false impression.
>Ed King's web sight is quite biased and he doesn't
>have a thing to say about the validity of Bills views on Masonry he
>only attacks his credibility in other areas. Which I might add is
>pretty week the minor facts in the timeliness of his life, which if
>you'v heard him speak makes sense.
He makes sense if you already believe what he is saying. EVERYONE who
has *objectively* reviewed his statements, and tested them against the
real world, has come to the same conclusion.
>I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
>on in the higher levels of Masonry.
<LOL>
I didn't have to go any further than the FIRST TWO SENTENCES!
"Witchcraft, Mormonism, Freemasonry, UFO cults, and even Satanism.
There are a lot of competing ideas out there in the religious
marketplace."
Neither a belief in UFOs, nor the fraternity of Freemasonry is "in the
religious marketplace."
If you somehow believe the fraternity of Freemasonry is "in the
religious marketplace", please state your reasons, so we may correct
your error.
If you belie
Robin L. Gooch
Rabbi's article was a good way to shut up some of these fundementalists
quacks.
Michael W Gooch MM
Tolerance #1165
Beaumont, Texas
"Gene Zippy Goldman.·." <br_...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:resajuoegdmght8dn...@4ax.com...
Gene Zippy
<ros...@ih2000.net> wrote:
>Sorry bout that Gene. I don't mean to offend amyone but I thought that
>Rabbi's article was a good way to shut up some of these fundementalists
>quacks.
>
>Michael W Gooch MM
>Tolerance #1165
>Beaumont, Texas
No problem at all, and thank you for your quick response.
Beaumont, is that anywhere near Houston? Do you know Jack Wise, a
frequent contributor here?
Jeff Naylor
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
>on in the higher levels of Masonry.
Right after you prove that you've stopped beating your wife.
Fish Taco Joe Schmuckatelli
wrote:
>Beaumont, is that anywhere near Houston? Do you know Jack Wise, a
>frequent contributor here?
Geno, Geno, Geno... you call yourself a geek? Do you not know that Mapquest is
Your Friend?
According to said website, Beaumont is ENE of Houston, near the Louisiana state
line. About 85 miles or so away.
Steve Crane
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:15:20 GMT, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·.
> It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
> where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
> founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
> masons don't even have a clue where your heading down this road.
Dear Sir,
There is obviously some great confusion expressed in your message below.
First of all their is no such thing as "higher ups" in Masonry. None of the
Masons here are "low level" Masons. There is not International organization
of any kind whatsoever. The Grand Master of any given state or country
jurisdiction is the highest ranking individual that exists. He answers to
none, except the membership who voted for him. This 200 year old claim of
"low level" Masons is pure bunk and always has been. God willing and with
the continued agreement of the members in Idaho I will accept that position
in September 2008. (We do plan ahead a bit) At that time the only person I
will answer to will be the membership of the Grand Lodge of Idaho. There is
no such thing as "higher ups".
Ed King
> Ed King <edk...@masonicinfo.com> wrote in message news:<VA.000003c...@earthlink.net>...
> > In article <517a6846.02071...@posting.google.com>, John
> > Baldwin wrote:
> >
> > > Goldy-locks,
> >
> > His name is Eugene Goldman, Mr. Baldwin. Do you gain pleasure from
> > insulting a person by mocking their name?
>
> Not at all, Brother Ed. I believe Mr. Baldwin was addressing Gene in
> Antient & Primitive Oriental, a language peculiar to his claimed
> Masonic Rite.
>
> In the fragment quoted above, the '-locks' is silent; 'Go' (should be
> an umlaut, circumflex accent, and triple oak-leaf cluster over the
> 'o') is a prefix indicating the pluperfect compound vocative case; and
> '-ldy' (accent-grave over all three letters, plus no less than
> eighteen subscript-iotas under the 'd') means 'man'. 'Gold' is
> implied from context.
You know, Bro. Gareth, you're REALLY scaring me now.... <BWG>
I knew those guys from The Harvard were.... well.... But I
just figured that MOST of the lodges in the Cambridge Second were
a bit on the strange side so.... <G,D,&R - REALLY fast.....>
> [I guess you can kind of see why the Rite is dying out; who but the
> hardiest student of Antient and Primitive lore could master the
> intricacies thereof?]
And, of course, with the erudite Mr. Baldwin as their sole surviving
spokesperson using obscenities etc., it certainly doesn't help,
does it? <SIGH>
Fraternally,
Ed King
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
Ed King
wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 05:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Jim Bennie
> <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:
>
> >NormDstorm <normds...@spamhotmail.com> wrote:
> >> As someone clamming to be a Christian, It sounds like masonry is the
> >> center point of your life.
> >
> >Why? Because I point out hypocrisy? I see you couldn't refute it,
> >and instead cast aspersions on my religious beliefs. I'm not
> >surprised.
> >
> >Jim Bennie
> >IPM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver
>
> Refute what the evidence is in the original letter. If have read any
> of Bills work or heard him speak you would probably have a different't
> view.
Have you read any of his works? Have you heard him speak? Has he given
you permission to use his copywritten material?
You don't seem to be very forthcoming with answers here, friend.
> Don't just go blindly through life... Check out what he has to
> say and judge it against the Bible for yourself.
So what do you think about his knowledge of clean back pack bombs?
> If you think he's a liar just because one of your biased brothers
> told you so you may want to double check. Ed King's web sight is
> quite biased and he doesn't have a thing to say about the validity
> of Bills views on Masonry he only attacks his credibility in other
> areas.
So it's ok to lie about everything else but be correct in this?
Interesting concept....
> Which I might add is pretty week the minor facts in the timeliness
> of his life, which if you'v heard him speak makes sense.
<ROFL> Guess you're not going to answer that question about your
educational qualifications for Biblical judgements, are you?
> I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
> on in the higher levels of Masonry.
Perhaps it might be best if Mr. Scnoebelen or one of his sock puppets
like yourself were to prove a single claim, eh? All of these nameless,
placeless, dateless ramblings are just a bit tough to track down. And -
based on Mr. Schnoebelen's life timeline (his wonderful rhetoric
notwithstanding) - it certainly appears that you're one of the real
guillable ones....
> You can check out Bill's site here
> http://www.withoneaccord.org/
>
> (บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
> ซ.ทฐท. N d S .ทฐท.ป
> (ธ.ทบ(ธ.ทจ* *จท.ธ)บท.ธ)
And if you get there now, you can buy one of his newest products that's
"A synergistic blend of fibers and botanicals that have been used for
centuries for their cleansing properties. It works like an intestinal
broom to gently cleanse and eliminate unwanted toxins and help maintain a
healthy colon. This is a detoxifying, energizing and revitalizing program
that can be used occasionally or on a daily basis for nutritional
support.*
It is just amazing what this man knows about Jesus and your colon. I
never fail to be amazed!!!!!
Robin L. Gooch
the crossroads of Interstate 10 and US' 69,96 & 287. It's on the West side
of the Neches River just across from Vidor.
"Gene Zippy Goldman.·." <br_...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:v3sbjukm99uk22pik...@4ax.com...
Jim Bennie
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> Refute what the evidence is in the original letter.
Again? How many more times does it have to be done? Read the comments
in this thread for starters.
> If have read any
> of Bills work or heard him speak you would probably have a different't
> view.
I've read his letter posted here. Oh, wait. That wasn't "Bill's work."
It was a "sample letter." :)
> Don't just go blindly through life... Check out what he has to
> say and judge it against the Bible for yourself.
Agreed. Incidentally, have you found that verse where Jesus told me
not to belong to fraternal organisations? And does that include the
Rotary Club or Kiwanis? What about the Chamber of Commerce? Or Costco?
Or the Book of the Month Club?
> If you think he's a
> liar just because one of your biased brothers told you so you may want
> to double check. Ed King's web sight is quite biased and he doesn't
> have a thing to say about the validity of Bills views on Masonry he
> only attacks his credibility in other areas.
I haven't seen Ed's web site on Schnobelen, to be honest. But what I have
seen here over the years on this newsgroup, when it comes to "bias," is
people who have a bias against Freemasonry, and start telling everyone
how they have it right, and millions and millions of people have it wrong.
Of course, along the way, they absolve themselves of any responsibility
for their interpretations by saying it's God talking, not them. Maybe
that's the reason so few of them dare to be Daniels by posting their
name.
> I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
> on in the higher levels of Masonry.
"Higher levels." Just what would they be? If you think Ed's a liar
just because a biased Bill Schnobelen told you so, you may want to
double-check.
Jim Bennie
wrote:
> In article <1eibju03n3v4vfh0f...@4ax.com>, NormDstorm
> wrote:
> > I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
> > on in the higher levels of Masonry.
> Perhaps it might be best if Mr. Scnoebelen or one of his sock puppets
> like yourself were to prove a single claim, eh?
Can someone start with telling us about those "higher levels of
Masonry"? The highest level whence your correspondent lives is the
Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon. I'd be fascinated to hear
what (s)he thinks "really goes on" there.
> it certainly appears that you're one of the real
> guillable ones....
Kind of a shame, Ed. At this point, the correspondent doesn't seem
like a bad sort; just a little misguided when it comes to fraternal
organisations and a few other things.
> > You can check out Bill's site here
> > http://www.withoneaccord.org/
> And if you get there now, you can buy one of his newest products that's
> "A synergistic blend of fibers and botanicals that have been used for
> centuries for their cleansing properties.
You mean Bill can't make ends meet on his anti-Mason business, so
he's into a new line of work? On second thought, colonics isn't too
much of a step. He's emptying out what his statements about Freemasonry
are full of.
Wait a minute! "That have been used for centuries"? Did they come
from ancient Egypt? What happens when you put a hexagram over them?
Is the "best-before" date July 4th?
Jim Bennie
<rose...@televar.com> wrote:
> "NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bnp8juoq3aqhtogei...@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:15:20 GMT, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·.
> > It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
> > where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
> > and from those connections there is a strong indication that the
> > founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
> > why the organization is the way it is, and most of you low level
> > masons don't even have a clue where your heading down this road.
> Dear Sir,
> There is obviously some great confusion expressed in your message below.
It's obvious, indeed, Steve. "Strong indication" does not equal "fact";
it means "I'm guessing here based on what others think."
The "founders" were the members of four lodges in London, who seem to
have been more interested in holding a large feast than anything else.
"Other groups it is affiliated with" are pretty well known; the
Shrine and so on. Unless "affiliated with" means (as it always does
with detractors) some nonsense on the web that "so-and-so was a Mason
and so-and-so belonged to (fill in blank), therefore, that's proof the
Masons are affiliated with (fill in blank). With that connect-the-dot
logic, it could be "proven" there are "strong indications" Freemasonry
is connected with just about anything, including Stamp Collecting
associations, the Society for American Baseball Research, antique car
clubs or Costco.
> God willing and with
> the continued agreement of the members in Idaho I will accept that position
> in September 2008. (We do plan ahead a bit)
Are you planning to be at the GL of BC in June 2009? Then I can cross
you off the list of umpteen Masons I hope to meet and somehow, something
gets in the way (my apologies to Glen Cook).
Jim Bennie
> wrote:
> > Refute what the evidence is in the original letter. If have read any
> > of Bills work or heard him speak you would probably have a different't
> > view.
> Have you read any of his works? Have you heard him speak?
Regardless, Ed, shouldn't your time as a member of the Masonic
fraternity means *something* in evaluating the aims and purposes
of the Craft?
> <ROFL> Guess you're not going to answer that question about your
> educational qualifications for Biblical judgements, are you?
In fairness, does not having a doctorate or degree mean someone isn't
qualified to make judgements? (pardon the poor grammar)
Jinn
>"Robin L. Gooch" <ros...@ih2000.net>
...who wrote:
> Sorry bout that Gene. I don't mean to offend amyone but I thought that
> Rabbi's article was a good way to shut up some of these fundementalists
> quacks.
...who signed himself:
> Michael W Gooch MM
...and whose lodge's name is <drumroll>:
> Tolerance #1165
<sigh>
Jinn >:-)
NormDstorm
Sure I'm not married :)
NormDstorm
wrote:
>
>Have you read any of his works? Have you heard him speak? Has he given
>you permission to use his copywritten material?
>
>You don't seem to be very forthcoming with answers here, friend.
>
Yes, yes and yes the permission for use is right along with the
letter, its' purpose is for people to reproduce it.
>> Don't just go blindly through life... Check out what he has to
>> say and judge it against the Bible for yourself.
>
>So what do you think about his knowledge of clean back pack bombs?
I haven't read it, the reason he is able to comment on subjects other
than those he seems to have previous knowledge about is because that's
what he douse. He has a ministry dedicated to getting the truth about
things out to the world.
Do you think Dan Rather has any previous knowledge about clean/dirty
or other bombs, but you probably take the things he says as fact. do
you not think Bill has researchers working on finding out about the
things that people want to know about?
>
>> If you think he's a liar just because one of your biased brothers
>> told you so you may want to double check. Ed King's web sight is
>> quite biased and he doesn't have a thing to say about the validity
>> of Bills views on Masonry he only attacks his credibility in other
>> areas.
>
>So it's ok to lie about everything else but be correct in this?
>Interesting concept....
What did he specifically lie about. your whole page is a bunch of
misinterpretations taken from a bunch of different sources.
Allot of the overlaps in religions really did happen as he explains
it. he really was practicing witchcraft at the same time he was
attending and teaching at St. Francis School of Pastoral Ministry
where he walked around with a pentagram around his neck (and no one
ever said a thing about it he says). I have no doubt he was a liar
back before he was saved, but he probably really believed satan was
god when he took his oath with the masons back then.
as for allot of the other things you see as discrepancy are actual
facts he did still practice witchcraft when he began attending the
mormon church, but toned it down because they are a more moral type
religion. This was also as he was exiting from his role as a priest of
the church of satan because that got him really messed up.
>
><ROFL> Guess you're not going to answer that question about your
>educational qualifications for Biblical judgements, are you?
Sure .. sorry lots of questions being asked of me here.
I forget the exact questions though.
I can read and translate Greek and Hebrew (a little on my own, but
mostly with the help of software) and have about 6 years of semi
formal training in studying and interpretation of scripture.
>
>> I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
>> on in the higher levels of Masonry.
>
>Perhaps it might be best if Mr. Scnoebelen or one of his sock puppets
>like yourself were to prove a single claim, eh? All of these nameless,
>placeless, dateless ramblings are just a bit tough to track down. And -
>based on Mr. Schnoebelen's life timeline (his wonderful rhetoric
>notwithstanding) - it certainly appears that you're one of the real
>guillable ones....
I have personally seen some of his certificates from reaching
monumental steps in his progress up the latter on masonry and his
priest of the church of satan acceptance.
I heard Bill first speak about 8 years ago, well before his ministry
would have been making him a decent living (if it douse at all). I
believe he had no reason to lie back then, and his story hasn't
changed since.
>
>> You can check out Bill's site here
>> http://www.withoneaccord.org/
>>
>> (บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
>> ซ.ทฐท. N d S .ทฐท.ป
>> (ธ.ทบ(ธ.ทจ* *จท.ธ)บท.ธ)
>
>And if you get there now, you can buy one of his newest products
>that's
Free!!!
its a recipe on his page that anyone can get there.
>"A synergistic blend of fibers and botanicals that have been used for
>centuries for their cleansing properties. It works like an intestinal
>broom to gently cleanse and eliminate unwanted toxins and help maintain a
>healthy colon. This is a detoxifying, energizing and revitalizing program
>that can be used occasionally or on a daily basis for nutritional
>support.*
Take it to your doctor and see what he says, it's probably just out of
some medical journal or something any how.
>
>It is just amazing what this man knows about Jesus and your colon. I
>never fail to be amazed!!!!!
>
> Ed King
>
(บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
NormDstorm
Bennie) wrote:
>"Higher levels." Just what would they be? If you think Ed's a liar
>just because a biased Bill Schnobelen told you so, you may want to
>double-check.
Just to make sure it's cleat I didn't call Ed a liar. The facts about
Bill in his site are correct just misinterpreted.
Ed King
> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 02:30:05 GMT, Ed King <edk...@masonicinfo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Have you read any of his works? Have you heard him speak? Has he given
> >you permission to use his copywritten material?
> >
> >You don't seem to be very forthcoming with answers here, friend.
>
> Yes, yes and yes the permission for use is right along with the
> letter, its' purpose is for people to reproduce it.
I see.
> >> Don't just go blindly through life... Check out what he has to
> >> say and judge it against the Bible for yourself.
> >
> >So what do you think about his knowledge of clean back pack bombs?
>
> I haven't read it, the reason he is able to comment on subjects other
> than those he seems to have previous knowledge about is because that's
> what he douse. He has a ministry dedicated to getting the truth about
> things out to the world.
Oh. How very interesting.
> Do you think Dan Rather has any previous knowledge about clean/dirty
> or other bombs, but you probably take the things he says as fact. do
> you not think Bill has researchers working on finding out about the
> things that people want to know about?
Could you tell us how many people Bill has on his support staff - and their
qualifications in nuclear physics?
Any idea how large the staff is at CBS News - and have you seen THEM issuing
a video about how to protect yourself against dirty bombs????
Guess you don't 'get it' here....
> >> If you think he's a liar just because one of your biased brothers
> >> told you so you may want to double check. Ed King's web sight is
> >> quite biased and he doesn't have a thing to say about the validity
> >> of Bills views on Masonry he only attacks his credibility in other
> >> areas.
> >
> >So it's ok to lie about everything else but be correct in this?
> >Interesting concept....
>
> What did he specifically lie about. your whole page is a bunch of
> misinterpretations taken from a bunch of different sources.
Perhaps you could elaborate on those 'misinterpetations'?
And is there a problem when all of the sources are the writings of Mr.
Schnoebelen himself?
> Allot of the overlaps in religions really did happen as he explains
> it. he really was practicing witchcraft at the same time he was
> attending and teaching at St. Francis School of Pastoral Ministry
> where he walked around with a pentagram around his neck (and no one
> ever said a thing about it he says).
<ROFL> Yep. Sounds very legitimate. Ever been to a religious college?
> I have no doubt he was a liar back before he was saved, but he
> probably really believed satan was god when he took his oath with
> the masons back then.
Well, that makes a LOT of sense.
> as for allot of the other things you see as discrepancy are actual
> facts he did still practice witchcraft when he began attending the
> mormon church, but toned it down because they are a more moral type
> religion. This was also as he was exiting from his role as a priest of
> the church of satan because that got him really messed up.
You know, this is the very first time we've run into an apologist for Mr.
Schnoebelen. I'm VERY impressed. It goes to show that P. T. Barnum was indeed
correct.
> ><ROFL> Guess you're not going to answer that question about your
> >educational qualifications for Biblical judgements, are you?
>
> Sure .. sorry lots of questions being asked of me here.
> I forget the exact questions though.
Uh-huh.
> I can read and translate Greek and Hebrew (a little on my own, but
> mostly with the help of software) and have about 6 years of semi
> formal training in studying and interpretation of scripture.
"Semi-formal"? Were you wearing a tuxedo? And it's kind of interesting that
you can read and translate Greek and Hebrew and yet can't even use
appropriate words in your messages here - like repeting the word "douse" for
the word "does" (as below). <shrug>
> >> I challenge Ed to outright refute anything Bill has to say really goes
> >> on in the higher levels of Masonry.
> >
> >Perhaps it might be best if Mr. Scnoebelen or one of his sock puppets
> >like yourself were to prove a single claim, eh? All of these nameless,
> >placeless, dateless ramblings are just a bit tough to track down. And -
> >based on Mr. Schnoebelen's life timeline (his wonderful rhetoric
> >notwithstanding) - it certainly appears that you're one of the real
> >guillable ones....
>
> I have personally seen some of his certificates from reaching
> monumental steps in his progress up the latter on masonry and his
> priest of the church of satan acceptance.
"...monumental steps...." <ROFL> The fellow did absolutely NOTHING more in
Masonry than MILLIONS of others have done. How do you deem that to be
monumental?
And the church of satan gives certificates?
> I heard Bill first speak about 8 years ago, well before his ministry
> would have been making him a decent living (if it douse at all). I
> believe he had no reason to lie back then, and his story hasn't
> changed since.
OK. Think I've made my point about your guillibility before.
> >> You can check out Bill's site here
> >> http://www.withoneaccord.org/
> >>
> >> (บท.ธ(จ*ท.ธ ธ.ท*จ)ธ.ทบ)
> >> ซ.ทฐท. N d S .ทฐท.ป
> >> (ธ.ทบ(ธ.ทจ* *จท.ธ)บท.ธ)
> >
> >And if you get there now, you can buy one of his newest products
> >that's
> Free!!!
> its a recipe on his page that anyone can get there.
REALLY? Guess you'll believe ANYTHING then without checking it out.
Actually, it's a product called Fiberzon - Mint 500gm which Mr. Schnoebelen
will happily sell you for $39.00. Looks like you've been seduced by a
self-created fantasy yet again, eh?
http://www.withoneaccord.org/store/newstuff.html will show you that along
with the colon cleaner, you can get Una de Gato and Essential Oil of Lemon.
I'm sure all of these have a lot to do "... he is able to comment on subjects
other than those he seems to have previous knowledge about is because that's
what he douse. <sic> He has a ministry dedicated to getting the truth about
things out to the world." The truth about colons and lemon oil. I'm always
amazed....
> >"A synergistic blend of fibers and botanicals that have been used for
> >centuries for their cleansing properties. It works like an intestinal
> >broom to gently cleanse and eliminate unwanted toxins and help maintain a
> >healthy colon. This is a detoxifying, energizing and revitalizing program
> >that can be used occasionally or on a daily basis for nutritional
> >support.*
>
> Take it to your doctor and see what he says, it's probably just out of
> some medical journal or something any how.
Yep. And Bill will be very happy to take your money for it. In the past, men
used to travel the country in wagons selling similar things. "Snake Oil
Salesmen" they called them. Seems to me that Mr. Schnoebelen is doing the
same thing with his medicines and mumblings on Masonry, Mormonism, UFOs and
the like. Your mileage may vary.
> >It is just amazing what this man knows about Jesus and your colon. I
> >never fail to be amazed!!!!!
> >
> > Ed King
Ed King
KIV11
>Sure I'm not married :)
So, that woman you've been beating is your girlfriend?
George K.
Gene Zippy
joeschmu...@KILL.SPAMFORD.WALLACE.NOW ("Fish Taco Joe"
Schmuckatelli) wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:32:33 GMT, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·. <br_...@pacbell.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Beaumont, is that anywhere near Houston? Do you know Jack Wise, a
>>frequent contributor here?
>
>Geno, Geno, Geno... you call yourself a geek? Do you not know that Mapquest is
>Your Friend?
Ok, so I am not a Geography geek, ok?
>According to said website, Beaumont is ENE of Houston, near the Louisiana state
>line. About 85 miles or so away.
Close enough.
Gene Zippy
<ros...@ih2000.net> wrote:
>I don't think I know Mr Wise.
Hang around here a while. Jack posts from time to time. m He is a
good man to know.
>Beaumont is a little (pop 113,000) oil town at
>the crossroads of Interstate 10 and US' 69,96 & 287. It's on the West side
>of the Neches River just across from Vidor.
<s>
As you may have gathered, I do not know my Texas Geography that well.
Being a California resident, it doesn't come up all that often.
Anyway, welcome and enjoy your stay here. It's not a bad place to
hang out. The food is good, the neighborhood could use some touching
up, but not too bad. Some of the neighbors are a pain, but they are
entertaining at the same time.
Gene Zippy
<LOL>
Yes, our Mr. Baldwin, et al, should take note. Here is a Master
Mason, a real one, who learned our custom here, and unashamedly gave
us his information. Exactly what any real Mason would do.
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>Right after you prove that you've stopped beating your wife.
>
>Sure I'm not married :)
MURDERER!
Gene Zippy
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>So what do you think about his knowledge of clean back pack bombs?
>
>I haven't read it, the reason he is able to comment on subjects other
>than those he seems to have previous knowledge about is because that's
>what he douse.
That's what he douse, is it?
>He has a ministry dedicated to getting the truth about
>things out to the world.
Shame he never actually presents any truth, then.
>Do you think Dan Rather has any previous knowledge about clean/dirty
>or other bombs, but you probably take the things he says as fact. do
>you not think Bill has researchers working on finding out about the
>things that people want to know about?
Correct. I do not think he has anyone researching anything.
>What did he specifically lie about.
It begins with his judgement that the fraternity of Freemasonry is a
religion.
>><ROFL> Guess you're not going to answer that question about your
>>educational qualifications for Biblical judgements, are you?
>
>Sure .. sorry lots of questions being asked of me here.
>I forget the exact questions though.
>
>I can read and translate Greek and Hebrew (a little on my own, but
>mostly with the help of software) and have about 6 years of semi
>formal training in studying and interpretation of scripture.
What is "semi formal training"?
>I have personally seen some of his certificates from reaching
>monumental steps in his progress up the latter on masonry
Please describe this "ladder on Masonry". What sort of "monumental
steps" did he supposedly reach?
>I heard Bill first speak about 8 years ago, well before his ministry
>would have been making him a decent living (if it douse at all).
It would seem that it douse.
>I believe he had no reason to lie back then, and his story hasn't
>changed since.
That's ok. There are people who believe that Elvis is alive and doing
oil changes in Soux Falls, South Dakota.
>>And if you get there now, you can buy one of his newest products
>>that's Free!!!
<LOL>
"You can buy a product that is free"?
<LOL>
Got [Backspace]?
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
bryan
news:n4jdju46gkt4dnd80...@4ax.com...
> What is "semi formal training"?
no jeans or trainers.
:^)
Gareth Driver
> I knew those guys from The Harvard were.... well.... But I
> just figured that MOST of the lodges in the Cambridge Second were
> a bit on the strange side so....
*Boston* Second, Bro. Ed. D'ya think we'd share a district with those
nerd-o's at MacLaurin? <G>
> And, of course, with the erudite Mr. Baldwin as their sole surviving
> spokesperson using obscenities etc., it certainly doesn't help,
> does it? <SIGH>
Seems a common problem with those Ancient and Primitive rites. Maybe
it's a secret they don't tell you until the real high degrees?
Jim Bennie
<normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 04:48:16 +0000 (UTC), jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca (Jim
> Bennie) wrote:
> >"Higher levels." Just what would they be? If you think Ed's a liar
> >just because a biased Bill Schnobelen told you so, you may want to
> >double-check.
> Just to make sure it's clear I didn't call Ed a liar.
Nor does it say you did, but yes, let's make that clear if readers
didn't catch what is the turnaround of your sentence about Mr.
Schnoebelen to Ed.
Nor, by the way, did you say what these "higher levels" Bill
Schnobelen was talking about you demanded Ed to refute. Surely
since you've refered to them, you must know what they are. I've
explained where you live, the highest level is the Grand Lodge of
British Columbia and Yukon.
Nor, by the way, did you quote the verse I asked for that tells me
not to join a fraternal organisation, and whether it applies equally
to the Rotary Club or Kiwanis, Costco, Book of the Month Club or
Chamber of Commerce. You're awfully selective in your responses.
Jeff Naylor
George, whoever that woman is he's beating, rest assured that she's a
Christian. Our friend Norm wouldn't want to be caught mixing it up
with those heathen infidels.
I still want to know where he goes and what he does that he never
comes into contact with non-Christians, so as to avoid running the
risk of watering down his beliefs.
S&F,
Jeff Naylor, WM
Lodge Vitruvian, No. 767
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gene Zippy
<jeff__@masonic__light.net> wrote:
>George, whoever that woman is he's beating, rest assured that she's a
>Christian. Our friend Norm wouldn't want to be caught mixing it up
>with those heathen infidels.
>
>I still want to know where he goes and what he does that he never
>comes into contact with non-Christians, so as to avoid running the
>risk of watering down his beliefs.
It must be horrid to live in such fear, that if you discover that
someone close to you has a different religious belief you cannot hold
yours. I really feel sorry for anyone so weak in their own beliefs.
Robert Berger
Even better I would like to know how NDS came to believe that "I just know
there are allot of uninformed
Christians" - has he taken a survey, consulted with the various Christian
sects and obtained statistical information on the religious training of
Christians around the world, personally interviewed a majority of the
Christians living today. Also, what is his criteria for what constitutes
an uninformed vs. well informed Christian? Is rote memorization the
criteria, or does one have to understand the message contained in the New
Testatment? Inquiring minds ( well, me anyway) would like to know!
Fraternally,
Robert M. Berger, S.W. (and admitted infidel)
Home Lodge #721
Van Nuys, CA
"Jim Bennie" <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ah3311$ano$4...@luna.vcn.bc.ca...
> NormDstorm <normds...@spamhotmail.com> wrote:
> > It is true I don't have any grand knowledge of Masonry but I know
> > where it's roots are and, what other groups it is affiliated with.
> > and from those connections there is a strong indication that the
> > founders and high ups have some very specific plans and reasons for
> > why the organization is the way it is, and most of you low level
> > masons don't even have a clue where your heading down this road.
>
> I see. Someone who has no grand knowledge of Freemasonry up in
> Kelowna has it all figured out, but millions upon millions of
> men over two centuries "don't have a clue".
>
> > Before I was a christian I read the bible and it didn't have much
> > impact. It seemed like a neat little book with a bunch of cute stories
> > and some rules for living your life. Once I came to the realization
> > of who Christ was and what he did. The Bible made allot more sense
> > and I found meaning for my life in almost every passage I read.
>
> I'd pleased to see you're secure in your faith.
>
> > I'm not condemning them, I just know there are allot of uninformed
> > Christians who don't read their bible enough to know your organization
> > is not where a Christian should be spending there time.
>
> Actually, you're being presumptuous again. The Bible says nothing
> about fraternal organisations.
J Ruble
but then, he wouldn't have made it.
SCOTTY
"NormDstorm" <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b92jugrfs0d8d4rf...@4ax.com...
> This is a sample letter of resignation from the Masonic lodge, taken
> from the book, MASONRY BEYOND THE LIGHT.
>
J Ruble
Great answer, Brother Jim.
SCOTTY
"Jim Bennie" <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ah30ai$ano$3...@luna.vcn.bc.ca...
> Gene "Zippy" Goldman <br_...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:15:05 GMT, NormDstorm
> > <normds...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> >>None of the institutions above FORBID me from expressing my beliefs to
> >>my fellow man (as far as I know they don't)
>
> > Nor does the fraternity of Freemasonry.
>
> How true, Gene. I expressed my beliefs in this very thread earlier,
> as I have done so on a number of occasions. Obviously, Freemasonry
> doesn't forbid me from doing so. Nor does it tell me how to worship
> the Creator, which is more than I can say for some people purporting
> to speak for Him,
J Ruble
interested, save it, cause it's too much trouble for someone that knows as
little as me.
James L Ruble, raised in Lakeland #190 in 1957.
Scottish Rite, Valley of Roanoke, 32@, 1969.
Kazim Shrine Temple, 1969
Kazim Klowns (and damned proud of it) 1970.
So there you are, for what it's worth.
SCOTTY
J Ruble
We do somewhat disagree about religion, doesn't mean I don't love you as a
Brother, which you know I do.
But, why would this "person" (cause I don't think he is a brother) come in
here with this garbage. It's a beautiful letter, but it ignores totally the
whole meaning of Masonry. I am proud that I can sit in Lodge with a Brother
of a different faith, and (if he is willing to listen) discuss my faith with
him afterwards. Just as you and I can disagree on the minor things of our
faith, while believing in the same G-D.
Isn't that what they taught you in the military, there's always some SOB
that doesn't get the word.
Have a great evening.
SCOTTY