The DEVIL
level
fear in humanity, to keep the masses in line, started by the ruling /
educated classes in each culture. To suport this claim just look at the
early stages of man the Witch Doctor (Educated) told the people when it
would rain, who caused it and why etc.. then look at the dark and middle
ages, look at the "Books" and "Information" available from both these
periods and the patern is quite clear as all information was written in line
with Authorotairian propaganda by the ruling classes sons or the "Educated",
because if it was not then it was not published and the author was dead or
"Re-Educated" .doubtless the idea of an Anti-good or anti-true has likewise
existed in many cultures from time immemorial, (Hades etc) however if you
read the book "The Golden Bough" by Sir James Frances (I Think thats the
author) you can see a linear patern of evolution in place;
Magic and spells, incantations and rituals have been the foundations of our
complete civilisation they give us a feeling of rage or peace,(Effectively
everything in life has a kind of ritual right up to sex with the missus) or
romance or calm "In the begining was the word (Idea,Concept,Thought) and the
word was god and the word was with god" or gods in the case of very early
civilisation in a poor attempt to explain WHY ARE WE HERE!! 540 thousand new
births 370 thousand deaths (approx) per day! I will die, you will die VERY
SOON... a blink of an eye, a strike of a match. a very frigile thing. wHAT!
IN VAIN I here you ask?
So if to us it is a mystery to our superior intelects, Imagine what a
confusion life must have been for the early peoples of the world, with SOOO
many other things requiring explanation, everything was nearly inexplicable.
SO wipe your slate clean and start from the begining WITHOUT your superior
education, Imagine it.... the sky rolling along, the stars so vast and
misterious AWSOME!
imagine it.
So in these rituals, spells etc comes our ingredient, Belief ( The most
powerful thing you have, thats why we destroy so much with it) which still
cannot be measured, observed (except metaphisically or social
psychologically) there is no unit (Like Volts, amps) of belief, love, truth,
lies, hate, falsehood....effectively we live in a world of two sides...
sometimes known as light and dark or good and evil (:p) but I like to call
them Tangable and Intangable... or matter and spirit, or form and thought,
and the vast majority of Ignorants only attach importance to the tangeable
or material. The Car you drive, the house you live in, The people you
socialise with, the way you style your hair, clothes, make-up (This is known
as vanity and pride or EGOMANIA) ok "evil" as it is called in our limited
english language (Latin is far more definitive i.e. forty different types of
love and by the way THE "being misunderstood" or "misunderstanding" part of
our existence has alot to do with war etc or "Evil") is an idea, concept,
thought which animates itself in various forms in tangeble reality. it is
usually nessesary for another species existence to carry out or "animate"
the "evil" deed based on the participater's (the participater being the
individual animating the "evil" deed) lack of knowledge, wisdom, or its own
"misunderstanding" of the individual being "misunderstood" in one word
ignorance.
So there is your greatest "Evil" Ignorance, lack of education, stupidity.the
"BELIEF" that the participater ( Based apon his/her upbringing, i.e. every
individual, radio show, television program, film, book, song, influence)
"BELIEVES based upon "INFLUENCE" in his/her life dictates his/her own level
of ignorance. Take HISTORY, look at your history, look at every folly and
you will see time and time again the ONLY way to defeat your enemy is to
"UNDERSTAND" your enemy and nine out of ten times the enemy will be
ignorance.
So SATAN is a fiction, a FALSEHOOD of EXTREME proportions and to quo. the
book, DO NOT LEAN TO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING or THERE FOR THE GRACE OF GOD
GO I. having stated that, look at the light and dark. most think because
there is light there must be dark. so because there is a god there must be a
devil. GOD created light and dark, if you are Judeo/Christian he created all
Tangeable life, but what of the intangeable, the Idea's, concepts, thoughts
that animate phisical reality. did he create those to... of course he did.
that is where truth resides. take a concept like EQUALITY nowhere in
tangeable reality does it exist i.e. no two things, particles, anything are
equal...but WE understand the CONCEPT and try to act upon it what was it
christ said "all men are CREATED EQUAL" so there is only 1 GOD" In the
begining was the word, (Idea,concept,thought) and the word was god and the
word was with god"
David Simpson
typed furiously:
A lot of nothing to do with Freemasonry.
--
Regards
David Simpson (Remove "farook" to reply)
(Unattached MM)
Bad manners should not be a capital crime ...
for a first offence.
Robert Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"
Gene Zippy
>OK.. first of all SATAN is a judeo/christian concept,
OK.. first of all SATAN is a Christian concept, not known in Judaism.
[remainder of off-topic stuff mercifully snipped]
--
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
Brother Gene .*.
H.M.S.H.
Q.P.H.D.
http://www.blackmountainlodge.net
http://www.freemason.org
http://www.mastermason.com/BrotherGene
http://www.mastermason.com/BrotherGene/frequently_asked_questions.htm
MBBFMN #387
************************************
"Are you guys ready? Let's Roll!!"
Todd Beamer, Flight 93
************************************
Remember: Your Masonry may be different from someone else's.
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2002. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
Objects in this post are funnier than they appear
Be seeing you
Torab
>
> OK.. first of all SATAN is a Christian concept, not known in Judaism.
>
Hi Gene!
I'm beginning to see what an impossibly huge task it would be to
address all the misconceptions brought by those who are biased against
'religion' in general to alt.freemasonry! Seems that most critics have
the biggest bone to pick with Christianity, of which they still know
only what their sorry teachers in public schools taught them --- or
what their local ignorant "bible-thumper" militia shoved down their
throats... this is not the burden of Freemasonry to undo, of course.
I myself appreciate J.G. Fraser's contribution to the field as much as
anyone. And it baffles me that so many who read his works feel that it
somehow justifies their ignorant attacks on religions in general.
Apparently they recieved no education on matters of religion, so they
tend to cite Fraser's work on the other less known mythic subcultures
as an indictment of religion's premises - which it isn't. And of
course, since 'religion' = Christianity, of which nothing is visible
to them outside of what's on TV, why NOT fight the GOOD fight against
the "hypocritical TV evangelists, bigots & child molestors"? DOWN WITH
RELIGION they scream...
This seems to me to be a very widespread problem.
Considering the fact that Freemasons do not 'evangelise', I often
wonder how it is that it gets lumped in with attacks on "religious
lunacy" by persons who have been traumatized by the low-brow elements
of whatever local religious groups happen to be around them.
Considering too, that many "religious lunatics" themselves
misunderstand Freemasonry to be 'pagan', I am suprised to find persons
who are "Frazer aware" to be dumping on Freemasons as neccisarily
advocating the God/Satan paradigm at all.
I guess misunderstandings of this nature are nothing new.
Fascinating issue, this anti-Masonry.
-T
Dave Clark
news:b73c5d1b.02110...@posting.google.com:
>> >OK.. first of all SATAN is a judeo/christian concept,
>>
>> OK.. first of all SATAN is a Christian concept, not known in Judaism.
>>
>
>
> Hi Gene!
>
> I'm beginning to see what an impossibly huge task it would be to
> address all the misconceptions brought by those who are biased against
> 'religion' in general to alt.freemasonry! Seems that most critics have
> the biggest bone to pick with Christianity, of which they still know
> only what their sorry teachers in public schools taught them --- or
> what their local ignorant "bible-thumper" militia shoved down their
> throats... this is not the burden of Freemasonry to undo, of course.
>
Hello Torab,
Sadly enough, some of these religeously intollerent people believe that
"the end justifies the means" and to them it doesn't matter if they have to
resort to lies to make their point.
Some of what they preace is not from experience or study, they are merely
parroting monsense from close-minded people.
> I myself appreciate J.G. Fraser's contribution to the field as much as
> anyone. And it baffles me that so many who read his works feel that it
> somehow justifies their ignorant attacks on religions in general.
> Apparently they recieved no education on matters of religion, so they
> tend to cite Fraser's work on the other less known mythic subcultures
> as an indictment of religion's premises - which it isn't. And of
> course, since 'religion' = Christianity, of which nothing is visible
> to them outside of what's on TV, why NOT fight the GOOD fight against
> the "hypocritical TV evangelists, bigots & child molestors"? DOWN WITH
> RELIGION they scream...
>
>
> This seems to me to be a very widespread problem.
>
Sad, isn't it. I have friends of many faiths and would never insinuate
that they are evil or doomed because they follow a different book than I
do.
>
> Considering the fact that Freemasons do not 'evangelise', I often
> wonder how it is that it gets lumped in with attacks on "religious
> lunacy" by persons who have been traumatized by the low-brow elements
> of whatever local religious groups happen to be around them.
> Considering too, that many "religious lunatics" themselves
> misunderstand Freemasonry to be 'pagan', I am suprised to find persons
> who are "Frazer aware" to be dumping on Freemasons as neccisarily
> advocating the God/Satan paradigm at all.
>
> I guess misunderstandings of this nature are nothing new.
> Fascinating issue, this anti-Masonry.
>
>
> -T
>
Some of it is misunderstanding and some is diliberate. The ones with the
lower intelligence levels believe what they are reading or what they are
told to believe in order to achieve salvation.
Others just want to make a buck.
--
Dave Clark, MM (JW)
Eureka Lodge A.F. & A.M., No 283, G.R.C.
Sir Winston Churchill said, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and
won't change the subject."
-- remove one x if you need to email me --
ankhor
"level" <le...@blueyonder.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:VEmw9.6157$dv6...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> OK.. first of all SATAN is a judeo/christian concept, in order to instill
> fear in humanity, to keep the masses in line, started by the ruling /
> educated classes in each culture.
A shepherd has a dog, it looks fears, and the sheeples will tend towards
the shepherd in fear of the dog, but the dog is it`s henceman.
Many more deaths, animals die, even individual cells die in your body.
What is their purpose? to serve the greater good (or evil, depends on the
person ;o) )
are they aware? they do have a degree of control over you.
Are you the God of this ecosphere? Or are they your "gods"?
> So if to us it is a mystery to our superior intelects, Imagine what a
> confusion life must have been for the early peoples of the world, with
SOOO
> many other things requiring explanation, everything was nearly
inexplicable.
> SO wipe your slate clean and start from the begining WITHOUT your superior
> education, Imagine it.... the sky rolling along, the stars so vast and
> misterious AWSOME!
We study DNA, They study nature, and what is the shape you see a lot?
The pentagram(flowers), One of the building blockshapes.
So, like today, there are herds of uninterested breeders, and there are man
of science
and knowledge, who seek the truth.
nope the word spells something different, ignore ance.
Which in itself holds something else. To ignore, is , you have the knowledge
but you choose to disregard it. Or you could gain the knowledge and you
choose
to disregard it.
So ignorance is it`s meaning in this day and age, is actually a
misinterpretation
of the true meaning of the word.
And good and evil are values given by society.
> So there is your greatest "Evil" Ignorance, lack of education,
stupidity.the
> "BELIEF" that the participater ( Based apon his/her upbringing, i.e. every
> individual, radio show, television program, film, book, song, influence)
Like I said, the believer is ignorant because he/she chooses to ignore
the other values given because he/she holds stronger towards the values
given
by a book. Which gives (a false sense of) security in their lives.
> "BELIEVES based upon "INFLUENCE" in his/her life dictates his/her own
level
> of ignorance. Take HISTORY, look at your history, look at every folly and
> you will see time and time again the ONLY way to defeat your enemy is to
> "UNDERSTAND" your enemy and nine out of ten times the enemy will be
> ignorance.
If you ignore your enemy, there would most likely be no conflict. ;o)
> So SATAN is a fiction, a FALSEHOOD of EXTREME proportions and to quo. the
> book, DO NOT LEAN TO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING or THERE FOR THE GRACE OF GOD
> GO I. having stated that, look at the light and dark. most think because
> there is light there must be dark.
Light is important to us because we are "seeërs". Daydwellers.
If we would have been blind as a bat ( :o) ), God would
have started with, "Let there be sound".
Who knows what we can`t see?
I used this argument ones to somebody to explain the possibility of
the paranormal.
Imagine that the whole world was blind, but by some accident your
gene which controls eyesight was switched on.
How would people react to you? How would you explain to them
what you saw? In the beginning you wouldn`t really notice your
differentness.
for you would adapt towards the normal strain of live.
> so because there is a god there must be a
> devil. GOD created light and dark, if you are Judeo/Christian he created
all
> Tangeable life, but what of the intangeable, the Idea's, concepts,
thoughts
> that animate phisical reality. did he create those to... of course he did.
> that is where truth resides. take a concept like EQUALITY nowhere in
> tangeable reality does it exist i.e. no two things, particles, anything
are
> equal...but WE understand the CONCEPT and try to act upon it what was it
> christ said "all men are CREATED EQUAL"
Yep, allthough cloning might put a stop to that. ;o)
> so there is only 1 GOD" In the
> begining was the word, (Idea,concept,thought) and the word was god and the
> word was with god"
Let there be sound. ;o)
William
"Torab" <boo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b73c5d1b.02110...@posting.google.com...
Fact is religion (of all varietys) and its adherents has caused more wars,
suffering, and death, over the centuries than anything else.
I dont think you really need to read many books to see that is clearly the
case! Another thing that appears glaringly obvious, is that any member of a
particuliar religion, will generally without fail be of the opinion that
thier own religion, is in someway better than any other.
Will
Torab
True...
This also applies to race/culture (one's own culture is superior to
other's).
A certain level of this is natural. I hear the popular old "religion
and its adherents has caused more wars, death etc." complaint a lot.
If we subtracted 'religion' from this equation something else that
"differentiates" us from one another would surely rise in it's place.
It is a human trait.
I will metaphorically illustrate the way I see it at this point in the
human story. Consider the night sky to be God. Sailors from Egypt use
the same stars as sailors from China or Peru do in their navigations -
the "constellations" of the Zodiac. No one would know this at first,
of course, since everyone will have different names for these
constellations, and different ways of charting them. However, were one
to spend the time to sit down and study the star charts of the other
cultures, they would undoubtedly be able to deduce that they were
describing the same array of stars, but at different times of the year
ie. from a different terrestrial perspective. In times of barabarism,
the plunder of distant lands would be done as a method of establishing
the supremacy of one view of God over another. In times of
civilization, the trading of maps to open the general human endevour
up to a broad understanding of all the territories of the Earth would
be a general practice (for trade). The part that gets muddied by some
modern day advocates of peace on Earth, however, is that the
territories of the EARTH remain vastly different while the territories
of the HEAVENS (what we can see of them) are always the same. So it is
inappropriate to say that "all religions should agree on
everything"...
But we ARE at a stage where the trading of the maps is taking place.
The ugliness in man, his need to dominate and destroy others in order
to establish his supremacy over other beings, remains, whether cloaked
in religious language or not. But we are now reaching a point where it
will be generally agreed that the starry firmament above all of us
remains fixed, and that argueing over our different definitions of
it's markings is a CULTURAL matter, and less and less a religious one.
Truly, the "exploration of the Earth" is a matter of learning
different ways of perceiving the One Reality. We have bloodied
ourselves, and committed heartless, unforgivable genocides in the
process of coming to the point where an exchange of maps is the ONLY
way to proceed. The only obstacle to this is wheteher or not one
"believes" in the "supernatural" properties of the stars... (the magic
hocus pocus of knowing the equinoxes, solstices, eclipses, NSEW etc.
ooohh, scary).
It's simply a matter of pragmatics and education.
In other words, don't blame the Stars for mankind's inability to put
them to good and proper use.
-T
jeff
seth.often equated with lucifer and baalzebul these ancient recognitions are
lumped together by xians but the only thing they may have in common is a
middle eastern origin?ancient man with a bicameral mind and plenty of
tryptamines to ingest invented these ideaologies to explain the
inexplainable i.e.put things into our perspective.whereas completely alien
intelligences discovered and contacted could not be described within our
limited scope and were often refered to as"other" the next word being"what"?
"ankhor" <im4fr*remove*@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3dc33e45$0$85001$e4fe...@dreader7.news.xs4all.nl...
Will
Any amount of rhetoric, will not negate the obvious fact that religion, has
been behind more death and suffering throughout the world, than anything
else, and that this has been going on for longer than anything else.
The abandonment of religious crutches, and making a proper attempt to live,
work, and exist on a co-operative basis, seems to me, to be something that
would be far more positive, than going on with things as they are.
Will
Dave Clark
news:aq2kl8$cfq$1...@sparta.btinternet.com:
>
> Any amount of rhetoric, will not negate the obvious fact that
> religion, has been behind more death and suffering throughout the
> world, than anything else, and that this has been going on for longer
> than anything else.
>
> The abandonment of religious crutches, and making a proper attempt to
> live, work, and exist on a co-operative basis, seems to me, to be
> something that would be far more positive, than going on with things
> as they are.
>
> Will
>
Finally, something you have said that I agree with wholeheartedly. That is
one of the reasons why Masonry teaches tolerance, with respect to the
various religions.
Try to keep what I have said in a proper perspective though. Although I am
tolerent of and respect other religions, it doesn't means that I intend to
convert or run out and get circumsised or retreat to a tibetan Monastery.
--
Dave Clark, MM (JW)
Eureka Lodge A.F. & A.M., No 283, G.R.C.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/krackerjax/
Sir Winston Churchill said, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and
won't change the subject."
-- remove XX if you need to email me --
Will
"Dave Clark" <master...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns92BB237AC356Bkr...@207.35.177.135...
> "Will" <aegi...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:aq2kl8$cfq$1...@sparta.btinternet.com:
>
> >
> > Any amount of rhetoric, will not negate the obvious fact that
> > religion, has been behind more death and suffering throughout the
> > world, than anything else, and that this has been going on for longer
> > than anything else.
> >
> > The abandonment of religious crutches, and making a proper attempt to
> > live, work, and exist on a co-operative basis, seems to me, to be
> > something that would be far more positive, than going on with things
> > as they are.
> >
> > Will
> >
>
> Finally, something you have said that I agree with wholeheartedly. That is
> one of the reasons why Masonry teaches tolerance, with respect to the
> various religions.
>
> Try to keep what I have said in a proper perspective though. Although I
am
> tolerent of and respect other religions, it doesn't means that I intend to
> convert or run out and get circumsised or retreat to a tibetan Monastery.
>
> --
> Dave Clark, MM (JW)
> Eureka Lodge A.F. & A.M., No 283, G.R.C.
>
religious fanatiscism, should play any part in society today.
Will
Dave Clark
news:aq2nlp$phs$1...@venus.btinternet.com:
> Its good to see we agree on something.............I dont really feel
> than religious fanatiscism, should play any part in society today.
>
> Will
>
Neither do I. I have been a soldier for over 20 years and I hate the idea
of fighting wars over religious intolerance.
--
Dave Clark, MM (JW)
Eureka Lodge A.F. & A.M., No 283, G.R.C.
Jinn
> OK.. first of all SATAN is a judeo/christian concept,
Half-right. Christian.
> in order to instill
> fear in humanity, to keep the masses in line, started by the ruling /
> educated classes in each culture. To suport this claim just look at the
> early stages of man the Witch Doctor (Educated) told the people when it
> would rain, who caused it and why etc.. then look at the dark and middle
> ages, look at the "Books" and "Information" available from both these
> periods and the patern is quite clear as all information was written in line
> with Authorotairian propaganda by the ruling classes sons or the "Educated",
> because if it was not then it was not published and the author was dead or
> "Re-Educated"
Well, that was all very Marxian of you. What it has to do with
Freemasonry, I don't really know...
>.doubtless the idea of an Anti-good or anti-true has likewise
> existed in many cultures from time immemorial, (Hades etc)
Probably 'all' of them. I usually don't support generalizations, but
I think that might be a safe one to make.
> however if you
> read the book "The Golden Bough" by Sir James Frances (I Think thats the
> author)
No, no. Frazer. Sir James Frazer. (Authors are hard for folks to
look up if you don't spell them correctly.)
> you can see a linear patern of evolution in place;
You can if you want to. But that doesn't mean it's there. <s>
> Magic and spells, incantations and rituals have been the foundations of our
> complete civilisation they give us a feeling of rage or peace,(Effectively
> everything in life has a kind of ritual right up to sex with the missus) or
> romance or calm "In the begining was the word (Idea,Concept,Thought) and the
> word was god and the word was with god" or gods in the case of very early
> civilisation in a poor attempt to explain WHY ARE WE HERE!! 540 thousand new
> births 370 thousand deaths (approx) per day! I will die, you will die VERY
> SOON... a blink of an eye, a strike of a match. a very frigile thing. wHAT!
> IN VAIN I here you ask?
> So if to us it is a mystery to our superior intelects
<stifling lividity> And there it is, folks, the arrogance of "modern"
man, in any age. Not an iota of support for it, either.
> , Imagine what a
> confusion life must have been for the early peoples of the world, with SOOO
> many other things requiring explanation, everything was nearly inexplicable.
> SO wipe your slate clean and start from the begining WITHOUT your superior
> education,
I'm pretty well educated, but I don't know that it's "superior" to
what they had. Just different. I'd have no idea how to survive in
the wilderness, for example.
> Imagine it.... the sky rolling along, the stars so vast and misterious AWSOME!
> imagine it.
You don't have to. They're still there. Go outside sometime & check
'em out.
> So in these rituals, spells etc comes our ingredient, Belief ( The most
> powerful thing you have, thats why we destroy so much with it) which still
> cannot be measured, observed
Which, of course, is outdated Western science's major beef with it.
The subject/object model is outdated, my dear. Please read yourself
any given physics book after the time of Einstein. You'll see what I
mean. Honest.
> (except metaphisically or social
> psychologically) there is no unit (Like Volts, amps) of belief, love, truth,
> lies, hate, falsehood....effectively we live in a world of two sides...
Major Western fallacy #2. The Western preoccupation with dualism and
opposites, and the belief that 'that' is the ultimate level of
Reality. You certainly have all of it down, don't you? <s>
> sometimes known as light and dark or good and evil (:p) but I like to call
> them Tangable and Intangable... or matter and spirit, or form and thought,
Descartes is just 'so' happy right now.
> and the vast majority of Ignorants only attach importance to the tangeable
> or material.
<sigh> You know, when you misspell key words in your statement (like
"tangible," for example) while you're referring to other folks as
"ignorant," you really don't do much for your credibility, son.
> The Car you drive, the house you live in, The people you
> socialise with, the way you style your hair, clothes, make-up (This is known
> as vanity and pride or EGOMANIA)
I will believe that you know something about that. <s> You might
also check out the words "egocentricity" and "narcissism"...
> ok "evil" as it is called in our limited english language
Oh, I think that "evil" is whole different ballgame, played on a much
higher (or lower, depending on your perspective) level -- not that the
above personality disorders can't 'contribute' to evil acts.
Certainly. If egocentricity is carried to its extreme, you have
sociopathy. But even then, sociopaths can be violent or not.
> (Latin is far more definitive i.e. forty different types of love
I don't know Latin, but that sounds correct. Many other languages
have multiple words for "love." I myself have pointed this out
before. Says a lot about the language itself, and about the attitudes
held by those who created it. We could get deeply into linguistic
philosophy here, i.e., Does culture inform language, or the other way
'round? But let's not.
> and by the way THE "being misunderstood" or "misunderstanding" part of
> our existence has alot to do with war etc or "Evil") is an idea, concept,
> thought which animates itself in various forms in tangeble reality.
Okay, well, that was rather convoluted and unintelligible, but I think
you're saying that communication problems brought about by the
inherent inequivalencies of language from culture to culture give us
some serious problems. That's the first part, I believe. But I still
don't think you know diddly about the nature of evil.
> it is usually nessesary for another species existence to carry out >or "animate" the "evil" deed based on the participater's (the participater >being the individual animating the "evil" deed) lack of knowledge, wisdom, or > its own "misunderstanding" of the individual being "misunderstood" in one word
> ignorance.
So why didn't you just do that in the first place? Ignorance -->
Evil. Just like you could have spared us all that Frazer stuff.
Magic --> Religion --> Science. That's what Frazer said, in a
nutshell. (He wasn't right, but that's what he said.)
> So there is your greatest "Evil" Ignorance, lack of education, stupidity.the
> "BELIEF" that the participater ( Based apon his/her upbringing, i.e. every
> individual, radio show, television program, film, book, song, influence)
> "BELIEVES based upon "INFLUENCE" in his/her life dictates his/her own level
> of ignorance. Take HISTORY, look at your history, look at every folly and
> you will see time and time again the ONLY way to defeat your enemy is to
> "UNDERSTAND" your enemy and nine out of ten times the enemy will be
> ignorance.
I would say that most ignorance comes from egocentricity, actually.
And Western philosophy, with its insistence on the Subject/Object
model, perpetuates it (which is so ironic it's almost funny,
considering the alternative view).
> So SATAN is a fiction,
I'll agree with that. Unless you want to believe in Jungian
archetypes. Then he might actually exist on some plane, simply as a
result of human energy being poured into his image all these
centuries.
> a FALSEHOOD of EXTREME proportions and to quo. the
> book, DO NOT LEAN TO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING or THERE FOR THE GRACE OF GOD
> GO I. having stated that, look at the light and dark. most think because
> there is light there must be dark. so because there is a god there must be a
> devil. GOD created light and dark,
And here is where Christianity has one of its big hangups: It
presents God & Satan as adversaries (i.e. light & dark), and then says
that God created everything. It both attempts to put God on a level
'with' Satan, as half of a duality, and 'also' attempt to elevate God
to the highest position. This might work, except that the God from
which the light & dark came is never acknowledged as having the dark
in his own Being to begin with. If you were looking at the Kabbalah,
or at Taoism, for example, you would see light and dark as existing on
the second rung of the ladder, having split into separate entities
from one Source.
> if you are Judeo/Christian he created all
> Tangeable life, but what of the intangeable, the Idea's, concepts, thoughts
> that animate phisical reality. did he create those to... of course he did.
The Source is the Source. Whatever you call it.
> that is where truth resides. take a concept like EQUALITY nowhere in
> tangeable reality does it exist i.e. no two things, particles, anything are
> equal...but WE understand the CONCEPT and try to act upon it what was it
> christ said "all men are CREATED EQUAL" so there is only 1 GOD"
Christ spoke English? I doubt it.
> In the begining was the word, (Idea,concept,thought)
That's not what it says (not that I put much stock in the translation
anyway). In those "primitive" cultures that you (and most academics
in the west) seem to think were so ignorant, words are very important.
They are 'catalysts' for ideas, concepts, and thoughts -- not these
intangibles themselves. They are the agents by which the intangible
is made tangible. Words are 'very' powerful.
> and the word was god and the word was with god"
An outward expression of the totality of God. Not a 'transformation'
of God into that which the Word creates, but rather an 'extension,' if
you will. The Source never depletes. Thus, the Word 'is' God, and
yet God is not simply transformed into it. God in the SpiritMind,
forever breathing God into the physical universe, his Body.
Study yourself some tribal religion and quantum physics, level. Read
Jamake Highwater's "The Primal Mind" for a better understanding of the
former, and Gary Zukav's "Dancing Wu Li Masters" for the latter. A
little Joseph Campbell, Fritjof Capra, and Ken Wilber wouldn't hurt
ya, either.
I promise. <s>
Jinn >:-)
Jinn
> Hi Gene!
>
> I'm beginning to see what an impossibly huge task it would be to
> address all the misconceptions brought by those who are biased against
> 'religion' in general to alt.freemasonry! Seems that most critics have
> the biggest bone to pick with Christianity, of which they still know
> only what their sorry teachers in public schools taught them --- or
> what their local ignorant "bible-thumper" militia shoved down their
> throats... this is not the burden of Freemasonry to undo, of course.
No. A good shrink is usually the best one to take that on. :-)
> I myself appreciate J.G. Fraser's contribution to the field as much as
> anyone.
And if he were here, he'd probably appreciate your spelling his name
right. Frazer, Frazer, Frazer. They can't look it up if you don't
spell it right, Torab.
> And it baffles me that so many who read his works feel that it
> somehow justifies their ignorant attacks on religions in general.
It kinda baffles 'me' why you're a fan of his, actually. He 'did'
painstakingly collect a lot of data, but he never really knew what he
was looking at. His conclusions suck. Frankly. <s>
> Apparently they recieved no education on matters of religion, so they
> tend to cite Fraser's work on the other less known mythic subcultures
> as an indictment of religion's premises - which it isn't.
The problem isn't that there's actually some sort of difference
between them and Christianity, dear. The problem is that his
conclusions were 'altogether' wrong.
> And of course, since 'religion' = Christianity,
You're being facetious here, I hope.
> of which nothing is visible to them outside of what's on TV, why NOT fight >the GOOD fight against the "hypocritical TV evangelists, bigots & child >molestors"? DOWN WITH RELIGION they scream...
But generalizing just makes the world 'so' much simpler...<s> Here's
an aphorism our old friend R*****o might be proud of: "Generalization
is the lazy man's substitute for genuine efforts at philosophy."
You can quote me on that. I just did. :-)
> This seems to me to be a very widespread problem.
Si, senor. Es verdad.
> Considering the fact that Freemasons do not 'evangelise', I often
> wonder how it is that it gets lumped in with attacks on "religious
> lunacy" by persons who have been traumatized by the low-brow elements
> of whatever local religious groups happen to be around them.
> Considering too, that many "religious lunatics" themselves
> misunderstand Freemasonry to be 'pagan', I am suprised to find persons
> who are "Frazer aware" to be dumping on Freemasons as neccisarily
> advocating the God/Satan paradigm at all.
> I guess misunderstandings of this nature are nothing new.
> Fascinating issue, this anti-Masonry.
People who are screwed up need somebody to point a finger at, in lieu
of looking at themselves. It's their little hobby. <s>
Jinn >:-)
> -T
Jinn
>
> Fact is religion (of all varietys)
You know 'all' of them? Really?
> and its adherents has caused more wars, suffering, and death, over the >centuries than anything else.
Mentally and emotionally disturbed people have been using religion as
an 'excuse' to act out, over the centuries. Religion is their
scapegoat. "God made me do it" sounds so much better to the
self-righteous than "The Devil made me do it," after all...
> I dont think you really need to read many books to see that is clearly the
> case!
It'd be a real shame if you actually had to read a book! What a
torture!
> Another thing that appears glaringly obvious, is that any member of a
> particuliar religion, will generally without fail be of the opinion that
> thier own religion, is in someway better than any other.
Nope. Not the case in the East. Hindus, for example, will just
gobble up Christianity, lump Jesus right in with everybody else as a
genuine prophet, and take him along for the ride. The other half of
the world is 'not' hopelessly plagued with the notion of being
"exclusively correct," "one way," "one right answer," etc.
That's a Western problem. Generally. (But not without fail.) <s>
Jinn >:-)
> Will
ankhor
"jeff" <sche...@access995.com> schreef in bericht
news:1j1x9.5847$t1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> satan=set=ha shaitan long before xianity or judaism there was set or
> seth.often equated with lucifer and baalzebul these ancient recognitions
are
> lumped together by xians but the only thing they may have in common is a
> middle eastern origin?ancient man with a bicameral mind and plenty of
> tryptamines to ingest invented these ideaologies to explain the
> inexplainable i.e.put things into our perspective.whereas completely alien
> intelligences discovered and contacted could not be described within our
> limited scope and were often refered to as"other" the next word
being"what"?
Yep shaitan, I read the dan brown book, "angels and demons" good book.
Or Tesla did invent something with his free energy, when he experimented
with his tower and peope got a blue , ...........halo..........., what about
the philedelphia experiment.
Time is on our side, if we control it ofcourse.
Maybe not aliens, but just us.
people living deep into the earth in shelters in ancient times.
Maybe hiding for us.
Just a guess, and why the theosophiens keep searching, for they know
but not know where.
level
Jinn <pathou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9f924648.0211...@posting.google.com...
> "level" <le...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<VEmw9.6157$dv6...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...
> > OK.. first of all SATAN is a judeo/christian concept,
>
> Half-right. Christian.
>
> > in order to instill
> > fear in humanity, to keep the masses in line, started by the ruling /
> > educated classes in each culture. To suport this claim just look at the
> > early stages of man the Witch Doctor (Educated) told the people when it
> > would rain, who caused it and why etc.. then look at the dark and middle
> > ages, look at the "Books" and "Information" available from both these
> > periods and the patern is quite clear as all information was written in
line
> > with Authorotairian propaganda by the ruling classes sons or the
"Educated",
> > because if it was not then it was not published and the author was dead
or
> > "Re-Educated"
>
> Well, that was all very Marxian of you. What it has to do with
> Freemasonry, I don't really know...
VERY POLITICAL STATEMENT FROM A VERY DIFFERENT GENRE DOES NOT APPLY HERE AS
"IDEAS" ARE TEN A PENNY FROM CAPITALISM TO MARXISM ALL THE SAME TO ME!
FERVENT FOOLS FOLLOWING FIXED IDEAS. AND I CAN ASSURE U HISTORICALLY THE
STATEMENT I MADE WAS NOT FAR FROM THE TRUTH ..IMHO. AS HISTORY (AND THE
PRESENT / FUTURE) WILL CONFIRM.
> >.doubtless the idea of an Anti-good or anti-true has likewise
> > existed in many cultures from time immemorial, (Hades etc)
>
> Probably 'all' of them. I usually don't support generalizations, but
> I think that might be a safe one to make.
>
> > however if you
> > read the book "The Golden Bough" by Sir James Frances (I Think thats the
> > author)
>
> No, no. Frazer. Sir James Frazer. (Authors are hard for folks to
> look up if you don't spell them correctly.)
DOH!!! IF U LOOK I DID SAY I THINK! BUT THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT WITH THE
READERS
>
> > you can see a linear patern of evolution in place;
>
> You can if you want to. But that doesn't mean it's there. <s>
YES YOU CAN SEE ANY "IDEA" UNDER THE SUN, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS THERE
IN FACT EVERY THING IN THE WORLD OR WHAT YOU HAVE STATED MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT
BE VALID?!?
>
> > Magic and spells, incantations and rituals have been the foundations of
our
> > complete civilisation they give us a feeling of rage or
peace,(Effectively
> > everything in life has a kind of ritual right up to sex with the missus)
or
> > romance or calm "In the begining was the word (Idea,Concept,Thought) and
the
> > word was god and the word was with god" or gods in the case of very
early
> > civilisation in a poor attempt to explain WHY ARE WE HERE!! 540 thousand
new
> > births 370 thousand deaths (approx) per day! I will die, you will die
VERY
> > SOON... a blink of an eye, a strike of a match. a very frigile thing.
wHAT!
> > IN VAIN I here you ask?
> > So if to us it is a mystery to our superior intelects
>
> <stifling lividity> And there it is, folks, the arrogance of "modern"
> man, in any age. Not an iota of support for it, either.
SUPPORT... THERE IS YOUR INHERENT CONTRADICTION AGAIN...YOU TALK ABOUT THE
LACK OF VALID MEASURING (AS IN QUANTUM PHYSICS) BUT EXPECT EVERYTHING TO BE
BACKED UP WITH "OTHER PEOPLES IDEA'S" I DONT KNOW!!.....YOU MISS THE POINT
ITS NOT THE FIGURES ITS THE "IDEA"
>
> > , Imagine what a
> > confusion life must have been for the early peoples of the world, with
SOOO
> > many other things requiring explanation, everything was nearly
inexplicable.
> > SO wipe your slate clean and start from the begining WITHOUT your
superior
> > education,
>
> I'm pretty well educated, but I don't know that it's "superior" to
> what they had. Just different. I'd have no idea how to survive in
> the wilderness, for example.
WELL I AM NOT "PRETTY WELL EDUCATED IN FACT I KNOW NOTHING! I ONLY DISCUSS
IDEA'S THATS ALL. BUT IF U CANNOT SEE THAT WITHOUT PROPER EXPLANATION OF
PARTICULARS IN REALITY I.E. THE RAIN, SNOW, SUN, STARS, CLOUDS, TREE'S,
LIGHTNING, ELECTRICITY AND ON.........ON............ON...... IF U CANNOT SEE
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAN IN A CAVE AND MAN NOW THEN, WELL I DONT
KNOW!!!!!REALLY :)
>
> > Imagine it.... the sky rolling along, the stars so vast and misterious
AWSOME!
> > imagine it.
>
> You don't have to. They're still there. Go outside sometime & check
> 'em out.
I DO CHECK THEM OUT REGULAR BUT ITS NOT THE SIGHT OF THEM ITS THE AESTHETIC
CONCEPT HERE CONVEYED...
>
> > So in these rituals, spells etc comes our ingredient, Belief ( The most
> > powerful thing you have, thats why we destroy so much with it) which
still
> > cannot be measured, observed
>
> Which, of course, is outdated Western science's major beef with it.
> The subject/object model is outdated, my dear. Please read yourself
> any given physics book after the time of Einstein. You'll see what I
> mean. Honest.
AGAIN YOUR MISSING THE "IDEA" ELEMENT THERE BEING MORE IDEAS FLOATING ABOUT
OUT THERE THAN STARS IN THE UNIVERSE......IDEAS...THE BASIS OF ALL REALITY,
THEY FORM YOUR THOUGHTS, ACTIONS, THEY MAKE U DO WAT U DO BASED ON YOUR
FORMULATED BELIEFS DOH! AND FOOLS FERVENTLY "FIXED" I'LL SAY AGAIN "FIXED"
BELIEVE THEM. ITS SIMPLE BELIEF REALLY.......DO U THINK I BELIEVE THIS.
NOW QUANTUM PHYSICS CANNOT EXPLAIN ANYTHING ONLY THAT PARTICULARS HAVE A
TENDENCY TO EXIST, ITS NOT FIXED. OR TO QUOTE A PRETTY WELL POST EINSTIEN
EDUCATED BLOCK LIKE YOURSELF SIR JAMES JEAN "< THE PHYSICAL
WORLD/UNIVERSE/COSMOS> IS NOT SO MUCH A GREAT MACHINE AS A GREAT THOUGHT.
> > (except metaphisically or social
> > psychologically) there is no unit (Like Volts, amps) of belief, love,
truth,
> > lies, hate, falsehood....effectively we live in a world of two sides...
>
> Major Western fallacy #2. The Western preoccupation with dualism and
> opposites, and the belief that 'that' is the ultimate level of
> Reality. You certainly have all of it down, don't you? <s>
AGAIN YOU ASSUME THAT SOMETHING IS A FALLICY BECAUSE SOME WELL EDUCATED
BLOCK LIKE YOURSELF SAID IT DOH
ITS QUITE SIMPLE REALLY...THATS ALL IT IS. SIMPLE TRUTH! IF NATURE, PHYSICS,
SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY AND EVERY DEALING YOU HAVE EVER HAD IN YOUR LIFE DOES NOT
TEACH YOU THAT EVERY ACTION HAS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION
EVERYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ALLEGED BLACK HOLES AND
THE BIG BANG OR ALL SINGULARITIES OF THAT NATURE)....WELL I DONT KNOW....AND
I'M NOT EDUCATED. ITS SIMPLE!
>
> > sometimes known as light and dark or good and evil (:p) but I like to
call
> > them Tangable and Intangable... or matter and spirit, or form and
thought,
>
> Descartes is just 'so' happy right now.
WELL I WILL HAVE TO READ DESCARTES?
>
> > and the vast majority of Ignorants only attach importance to the
tangeable
> > or material.
>
> <sigh> You know, when you misspell key words in your statement (like
> "tangible," for example) while you're referring to other folks as
> "ignorant," you really don't do much for your credibility, son.
FIRST OF ALL "I AM" NOT INTERESTED IN CREDABILITY ONLY IN EDUCATING IF I WAS
INTERESTED IN CREDABILITY I WOULD POST ME REAL NAME ETC...AND LIKE I SAID
I'M NOT WELL EDUCATED LIKE YOURSELF, BUT HEY LIKE I'VSAID A 1000 TIMES ITS
THE "IDEA'S" THAT ARE IMPORTANT NOT THOSE DICTONERY WRITTING SCHOLARS (GOD
BLESS THEM COS CONFUSION WOULD REPLACE ORDER) THE IDEA'S OKEYDOKEY :)
>
> > The Car you drive, the house you live in, The people you
> > socialise with, the way you style your hair, clothes, make-up (This is
known
> > as vanity and pride or EGOMANIA)
>
> I will believe that you know something about that. <s> You might
> also check out the words "egocentricity" and "narcissism"...
NICE WORDS CHEERS TEACH WAT R U IN THE US?! : )
>
> > ok "evil" as it is called in our limited english language
>
> Oh, I think that "evil" is whole different ballgame, played on a much
> higher (or lower, depending on your perspective) level -- not that the
> above personality disorders can't 'contribute' to evil acts.
> Certainly. If egocentricity is carried to its extreme, you have
> sociopathy. But even then, sociopaths can be violent or not.
AGAIN THE MISSCONCEPTION IN MY VIEW....THERE FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO
I.....AND SO WE HAVE PSYCHO'S AND PARANOIDS.....MANIC DEPRESSIVES AND
MEGLOMANIACS.....THIS LIFE AS I KEEP TELLING PEOPLE IS TERMINAL.....YOU DIE
TODAY...TOMORROW ITS ALL THE SAME IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS.....OPPOSITES WILL
STILL EXIST AND
THOSE OTHER TRILLION STAR SYSTEMS WILL KEEP TURNING IN THAT BIG THING WE
CALL LIFE. OK YOU HAVE KIDS AND GRANKIDS....THEY WILL GO THE SAME WAY WAT IN
VAIN......HMMM.... WAT THIS LIFE IS PAINFUL WITH ALL THOSE
PSYCHOS..........WELL ITS MAYBE JUST EDUCATIONAL HA EVIL INDEED.
>
> > (Latin is far more definitive i.e. forty different types of love
>
> I don't know Latin, but that sounds correct. Many other languages
> have multiple words for "love." I myself have pointed this out
> before. Says a lot about the language itself, and about the attitudes
> held by those who created it. We could get deeply into linguistic
> philosophy here, i.e., Does culture inform language, or the other way
> 'round? But let's not.
I AM GALD FINALLY TO HAVE MET A CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENT (SEMI CONSTRUCTIVE) NA
I TELL A LIE......THERE IS A FEW CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS (EXCEPT THE BIT ABOUT
ME HAVING A PERSONALITY DISORDER) HMM HOW I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS THIS WITH
YOU BUT I THINK YOU ARE PERHAPS A LITTLE TO FERVENTLY FIXED.....MAYBE?
>
> > and by the way THE "being misunderstood" or "misunderstanding" part of
> > our existence has alot to do with war etc or "Evil") is an idea,
concept,
> > thought which animates itself in various forms in tangeble reality.
>
> Okay, well, that was rather convoluted and unintelligible, but I think
> you're saying that communication problems brought about by the
> inherent inequivalencies of language from culture to culture give us
> some serious problems. That's the first part, I believe. But I still
> don't think you know diddly about the nature of evil.
hahahah EVIL IS AN IDEA
>
> > it is usually nessesary for another species existence to carry out >or
"animate" the "evil" deed based on the participater's (the participater
>being the individual animating the "evil" deed) lack of knowledge, wisdom,
or > its own "misunderstanding" of the individual being "misunderstood" in
one word
> > ignorance.
>
> So why didn't you just do that in the first place? Ignorance -->
> Evil. Just like you could have spared us all that Frazer stuff.
> Magic --> Religion --> Science. That's what Frazer said, in a
> nutshell. (He wasn't right, but that's what he said.)
I WAS JUST WORMING UP TO THAT....WELL I AM NOT WELL EDUCATED LIKE
YOU......MY MOMMY AND DADDY DID'NT HAVE ANY MONEY : (
>
> > So there is your greatest "Evil" Ignorance, lack of education,
stupidity.the
> > "BELIEF" that the participater ( Based apon his/her upbringing, i.e.
every
> > individual, radio show, television program, film, book, song, influence)
> > "BELIEVES based upon "INFLUENCE" in his/her life dictates his/her own
level
> > of ignorance. Take HISTORY, look at your history, look at every folly
and
> > you will see time and time again the ONLY way to defeat your enemy is to
> > "UNDERSTAND" your enemy and nine out of ten times the enemy will be
> > ignorance.
>
> I would say that most ignorance comes from egocentricity, actually.
> And Western philosophy, with its insistence on the Subject/Object
> model, perpetuates it (which is so ironic it's almost funny,
> considering the alternative view).
SO YOUR EGOCENTRICITY WITH YOUR IDEA'S ON THE FALLICY IN YOUR OPINION OF THE
WESTERN CULTURE....WELL I AGREE IN PART HOW SHALLOW IT REALLY IS BUT I WOULD
SAY YOU ARE JUST AS IRONIC.
>
> > So SATAN is a fiction,
>
> I'll agree with that. Unless you want to believe in Jungian
> archetypes. Then he might actually exist on some plane, simply as a
> result of human energy being poured into his image all these
> centuries.
>
> > a FALSEHOOD of EXTREME proportions and to quo. the
> > book, DO NOT LEAN TO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING or THERE FOR THE GRACE OF
GOD
> > GO I. having stated that, look at the light and dark. most think because
> > there is light there must be dark. so because there is a god there must
be a
> > devil. GOD created light and dark,
>
> And here is where Christianity has one of its big hangups: It
> presents God & Satan as adversaries (i.e. light & dark), and then says
> that God created everything. It both attempts to put God on a level
> 'with' Satan, as half of a duality, and 'also' attempt to elevate God
> to the highest position. This might work, except that the God from
> which the light & dark came is never acknowledged as having the dark
> in his own Being to begin with. If you were looking at the Kabbalah,
> or at Taoism, for example, you would see light and dark as existing on
> the second rung of the ladder, having split into separate entities
> from one Source.
ABSOLUTELY : )
>
> > if you are Judeo/Christian he created all
> > Tangeable life, but what of the intangeable, the Idea's, concepts,
thoughts
> > that animate phisical reality. did he create those to... of course he
did.
>
> The Source is the Source. Whatever you call it.
>
> > that is where truth resides. take a concept like EQUALITY nowhere in
> > tangeable reality does it exist i.e. no two things, particles, anything
are
> > equal...but WE understand the CONCEPT and try to act upon it what was it
> > christ said "all men are CREATED EQUAL" so there is only 1 GOD"
>
> Christ spoke English? I doubt it.
DOH! U KNOW WAT I MEANT
>
> > In the begining was the word, (Idea,concept,thought)
>
> That's not what it says (not that I put much stock in the translation
> anyway). In those "primitive" cultures that you (and most academics
> in the west) seem to think were so ignorant, words are very important.
> They are 'catalysts' for ideas, concepts, and thoughts -- not these
> intangibles themselves. They are the agents by which the intangible
> is made tangible. Words are 'very' powerful.
>
> > and the word was god and the word was with god"
>
> An outward expression of the totality of God. Not a 'transformation'
> of God into that which the Word creates, but rather an 'extension,' if
> you will. The Source never depletes. Thus, the Word 'is' God, and
> yet God is not simply transformed into it. God in the SpiritMind,
> forever breathing God into the physical universe, his Body.
>
> Study yourself some tribal religion and quantum physics, level. Read
> Jamake Highwater's "The Primal Mind" for a better understanding of the
> former, and Gary Zukav's "Dancing Wu Li Masters" for the latter. A
> little Joseph Campbell, Fritjof Capra, and Ken Wilber wouldn't hurt
> ya, either.
>
> I promise. <s>
>
> Jinn >:-)
WELL THANKYOU JINN YOU HAVE GIVEN ME SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT I HOPE I HAVE
DONE LIKEWISE......AT THE END OF THE DAY ITS JUST SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT OR
SPECULATE ABOUT.... THANK YOU : )
Torab
> > somehow justifies their ignorant attacks on religions in general.
>
> It kinda baffles 'me' why you're a fan of his, actually. He 'did'
> painstakingly collect a lot of data, but he never really knew what he
> was looking at. His conclusions suck. Frankly. <s>
Agreed. The data is all that really ever concerned me. "Conclusions"
have been in sad shape ever since it was even considered an academic
neccesity to even HAVE one in this type of research. Never mind that
there's not much possibility of even drawing one without creating
misconceptions. Non-academic and borderline works are equally guilty
on this if not more so. So it never bothered me that he didn't know
what he was looking at. Like anyone else does! (at least as far as
'historicizing' the subject goes.)
[Sorry about my spelling of Frazer - me and my bad memory]
> > Apparently they recieved no education on matters of religion, so they
> > tend to cite Fraser's work on the other less known mythic subcultures
> > as an indictment of religion's premises - which it isn't.
>
> The problem isn't that there's actually some sort of difference
> between them and Christianity, dear. The problem is that his
> conclusions were 'altogether' wrong.
I am not sure that people who loathe 'established' religion
particulary care one way or the other. They see in Frazer only
confirmation of their bias. Somehow the rest of the content eludes
them, not that it's by any means even halfay close to being the 'best'
source on the subject. But this is what people read, this is what the
poster referred to, so this is what I discussed - at least a point of
contact.
>
> > And of course, since 'religion' = Christianity,
>
> You're being facetious here, I hope.
You must really misunderstand me thoroughly if there is even a
question about this! Though it's not easy to surmise another's entire
perspective from a few words, I realise. So, yes, I was being as
facetious as is possible.
> > of which nothing is visible to them outside of what's on TV, why NOT fight >the GOOD fight against the "hypocritical TV evangelists, bigots & child >molestors"? DOWN WITH RELIGION they scream...
>
> But generalizing just makes the world 'so' much simpler...<s> Here's
> an aphorism our old friend R*****o might be proud of: "Generalization
> is the lazy man's substitute for genuine efforts at philosophy."
>
> You can quote me on that. I just did. :-)
That is a very acute observation! Worded in beautiful, bold,
Nietzche-ian clarity. It's interesting to see how the Philosophy of
the Neoplatonists - even the Stoics - is so detailed in comparasin to
modern philosophy... perhaps the lazy man's relation to Hegel would
echo Hegel's relation to Plotinus?
So difficult to bridge these gaps sometimes, no? Aphorisms like yours
help. Thanks.
I've been wanting to ask someone this question, and you are propbably
a good person to answer it: can you describe to me exactly what it was
that made Spinoza "new" to his times and why it made him alienated to
Rabbi's & Qabalists etc? I don't have time to read that much of his
stuff, but I'll have to if I can't get this resolved... I'm trying to
sort out if his was a "peripatetic"/Aristotlean turn or something
else. Since no European voice that I know of ever echoed Al-Ghazzali's
triumph over Avicenna, I'm looking for the reason why - is Spinoza a
good place to look? I want to know what I'm missing here.
> > I guess misunderstandings of this nature are nothing new.
> > Fascinating issue, this anti-Masonry.
>
> People who are screwed up need somebody to point a finger at, in lieu
> of looking at themselves. It's their little hobby. <s>
Must be a strange and lonely world, watching everything in the world
grow more and more menacing the further one drifts from reality...
I for one am glad that when I make errors on this board, that the
right persons come out of the woodwork to correct/educate me amidst
the chatter. It took me the two weeks I've been posting here to
understand 'trolling' and the like enough to disassociate myself from
it. I'm thankful that persons such as yourself remain to make
intelligent comments & give constructive criticism.
-T
Gene Zippy
wrote:
>> Well, that was all very Marxian of you. What it has to do with
>> Freemasonry, I don't really know...
>ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THE POST WAS FOR THE POST ABOUT THE DEVIL. MARXIST IS A
>VERY POLITICAL STATEMENT FROM A VERY DIFFERENT GENRE DOES NOT APPLY HERE AS
>"IDEAS" ARE TEN A PENNY FROM CAPITALISM TO MARXISM ALL THE SAME TO ME!
>FERVENT FOOLS FOLLOWING FIXED IDEAS. AND I CAN ASSURE U HISTORICALLY THE
>STATEMENT I MADE WAS NOT FAR FROM THE TRUTH ..IMHO. AS HISTORY (AND THE
>PRESENT / FUTURE) WILL CONFIRM.
In other words, it had NOTHING to do with the fraternity of
Freemasonry.
[remainder of off-topic rant mercifully snipped]