The Kabbalah and Freemasonry

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Gregory Perry

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Oct 10, 2003, 9:38:00 PM10/10/03
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http://www.abaris.net/freemasonry/worrel/kabbalah.htm

"A careful look at many of the rites and rituals of Freemasonry reveals that
there is indeed much kabbalistic influence to be found there. Some of our
rites have obvious kabbalistic influence, such as the 28th degree of the
Ancient and Accepted Scottish rite which is called: 'The Knight of the
Sun'."

http://www.dcsr.org/educ.htm

Washington D.C. Scottish Rite of Freemasonry

"Red and white columns also appear on the hangings. In legendary terms, the
red columns remind us of the severity of Hebrew punishing ordeals (An eye
for an eye and a tooth for a tooth etc..), while the white columns refer to
Jehovah's the mercy for the Jews when they behave according to his will
again after trespassing His commands (e.g. the golden calf, the brazen
serpent etc..). In symbolic terms, according to the mystical philosophy of
the Kabbalah, the white and red columns symbolize the cyclical nature of
Good and evil."

http://www.aasrvalleyofnewyorkcity.com/Education.htm

Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite Northern Jurisdiction Valley of New York City

"The syllabus will not be afraid to confront topics which have recently been
ignored or avoided in Masonry, for there is a growing interest among
younger members in the spirituality, and in the symbolism of Masonry.
Thus, the course will make a point of exploring many of the symbolic roots
of our Degree system, including the Kabbalah, Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism,
Alchemy, Sacred Geometry and Templary. Indeed, it is impossible to
understand many of the teachings and symbolism of the Degrees without
understanding the intellectual climate in which they were written."

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9991/kabbalah.html

Freemasonry in Israel Tree of Life of the Kabbalah and Morality

"These Moral Powers of Perfection became the basis for the degrees and
teachings of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. The Kabbalah names "Or"
(Ohr, 'Light') any energy received from G-d through the 10 channels of the
Sefirot and apprehensible by humans. 'Faith in G-d' is the primary Moral
Power corresponding to the first of the Sefirot, "Keter" (Kehtehr, 'G-d's
Crown'). In the Kabbalah, 'Faith in G-d' is described as "Or EinSof" (Ohr
AinSohf, 'G-d's Light') that fills all the senses of a person. Hence, the
symbolic meaning of Masonic 'Light' is first of all 'Faith in G-d.' The
human search for light begins within our own inner selves, since all have
been "given" a seed of light. If we develop our faith in G-d and reveal
moral conduct, these sprouts can now acquire more light."

http://www.angelfire.com/va/mason/sr17.htm

Seventeenth Degree, Knight Of The East And West

"The apron (right) reverses the colors of the 16°, with the body of the
apron being yellow (dawn and breaking light) and the trim of red (zeal and
faith). Both the apron body and the flap are triangular, symbol of the
Deity. The body of the apron is decorated with the Tetractys, formed of 10
Yuds (a character of the Hebrew alphabet and the first letter of the
Tetragammaton). They are symbolic of the ten manifestations of God
(Sephiroth) found on the Tree of Life of the Kabbalah and, thus, symbolic
of God's action in the creation and maintenance of the universe."

http://www.2be1ask1.com/library/kabbalah.html

THE MYSTERIES OF THE KABBALAH AND FREEMASONRY Bro. Raymond L. Schwartz,
Harmony Lodge No. 8, Newton, New Jersey, U. S. A.

"There is no doubt that there is a confluence between Freemasonry and the
ancient Hebrew religion. This present study seeks to establish that there
is a parallel between certain themes from the Kabbalah and Freemasonry.
This thesis will be developed by examining the works of authors devoted to
the Kabbalah and comparing them with the degrees and lectures of
Freemasonry. Gershom G. Scholem in his book, On the Kabbalab and its
Symbolism, asserts that "Kabbalistic speculation and doctrine is concerned
with the realm of the divine emanations or Sefiroth, in which God's
creative power unfolds" (Scholem, 1965)."

http://www.thelodgeroom.com/council.html

Branches Of Freemasonry The Council of Kadosh - Degrees 19 - 30

"28° Knight of the Sun - This is the last of the philisophical degrees of
the Scottish Rite and its material is derived from the Kabbalah. It looks
at science, reason and faith as seen through the consistancy of nature."

http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/calendar.htm

Freemasons of the Grand Lodge of D.C. in Washington, D.C.

"Tue 14 #45 (T) Stated: Kabbalah; Jewish Mystical Thought & Freemasonry"

Gene Zippy

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Oct 11, 2003, 12:42:18 AM10/11/03
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:38:00 GMT, Gregory Perry
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:

absolutely nothing of his own, in 91 lines.


--
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Be seeing you

Glen A. Cook

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Oct 11, 2003, 1:22:47 AM10/11/03
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Mr. Perry:

You've made comments about higher Freemasons. Who are these higher Freemasons?
Glen A. Cook
www.cooklaw.org

Peter Renzland

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Oct 11, 2003, 3:05:44 AM10/11/03
to
In article <20031011012247...@mb-m14.aol.com>, Glen A. Cook wrote:
> Mr. Perry:
>
> You've made comments about higher Freemasons.
> Who are these higher Freemasons?

He did? In this thread? I think not.
(BTW, congratulations on having arrived at the summit!)


I find it hilarious that:

1. Gregory starts a thread "The Kabbalah and Freemasonry",
consisting of Masonic links and excerpts relating to the Qabbalah.

2. Gene derides Gregory for posting 91 lines *without* comment.

3. Glen questions Gregory on his (nonexistent?) comments.


OB-Topic:

"Sunday October 26 2003 at 2:00PM the Rosicrucian Society
of Canada will be hosting the second part on the Qabbalah
(QABALAH) at the Axxxxxx xxxxxx temple.

This lecture is open to all:Masons, non masons, Men, and Women.
RSVP: xxxxxxx"

-- Pete

Jim Bennie

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Oct 11, 2003, 7:11:57 AM10/11/03
to
In <q42fovsaafl8ar2u7...@4ax.com>, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·.

<br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:38:00 GMT, Gregory Perry
> <gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:

> absolutely nothing of his own, in 91 lines.

And, to no surprise, nor quoting from the actual Masonic ritual, as
I've requested a number of times to prove his claims.

Jim Bennie
PM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver

KIV11

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Oct 11, 2003, 9:58:52 AM10/11/03
to
Glen A. Cook continues to ask:

>You've made comments about higher Freemasons. Who are these higher
>Freemasons?

Glen, you have obviously never heard of the Rastafarian Masons !!! <VBWG>

George K.

Gregory Perry

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Oct 11, 2003, 12:13:32 PM10/11/03
to
Over the past week, I've posted questions and comments pertaining to the
origins and history of the symbols included within freemasonry. I've also
made a few statements about the inherent incompatibility between
Christianity and freemasonry, which is patently obvious to any casual
reader of the bible once presented with the basic tenets of the Babylonian
Talmud and Kabbalah.

I've posted direct quotes from Albert Pike, a masonic scholar and Kabbalist
that is quoted and included in virtually every site on the Internet
pertaining to freemasonry that I've browsed - in those quotes, Pike states
that all religions came from and return to the Kabbalah, and also states
that freemasonry is in fact a religion. However, according to the sages
from alt.freemasonry, Pike had nothing to do with the lodge (!!!) and only
played a minor role in formulating the precepts and principles of modern
day freemasonry.

After being scolded for even considering Pike's literature, I've posted
several bits of information regarding the occult nature of the Kabbalah,
most of which was taken from Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods". Just
mentioning Hoffman's book in conjunction with freemasonry immediately got
me labeled a Neo-Nazi sympathizer and a bigot, although I've been emphatic
about my lack of hate for any race, creed, or color - mere possession of
Hoffman's book is apparently enough to be considered a holocaust denying
Neo-Nazi white supremacist, and with that logic since I own a copy of
Aesop's Fables maybe I should also be considered a Greek poet as well, or
at least a Greek poet sympathizer. Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods"
contains specific quotes pertaining to the anti-Christian nature of the
Babylonian Talmud and Kabbalah, and goes into a great bit of meticulously
documented detail about the origins of the oral traditions of the Pharisees
and Saducees, traditions of which Jesus Christ spoke out against on
multiple occasions. The Babylonian Talmud has been severely censored by
the Roman Catholic Church and others that wish to cover up the fact that
the Babylonian Talmud preaches anti-Christian bigotry, so go out and
purchase your own uncensored copy of the Babylonian Talmud and read those
passages for yourself: Steinsaltz, Rabbi Adin, Goldberg (ed.), The Talmud,
The Steinsaltz Edition, New York, Random House, 1999. In addition, before
reading ADL-sponsored tripe (you know, the same ADL that funded the lawsuit
removing the 10 Commandments from an Alabama courtroom, that ADL) about
Hoffman being a Neo Nazi bigot, you might learn something by spending $9.95
on his book and reading it instead of regurgitating the propaganda that's
been spoon fed to you by the ADL.

I then did some additional research on the Kabbalah and its implications on
freemasonry using one simple search term, google "Scottish Rite" +kabbalah,
the first 20 results of which I posted to alt.freemasonry that clearly and
unequivocally show that, according to your own brothers, the origins of
freemasonry do in fact stem from the Kabbalah and Kabbalistic mysticism:

"Some of our rites have obvious kabbalistic influence, such as the 28th
degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish rite which is called: 'The
Knight of the Sun'."

"Thus, the course will make a point of exploring many of the symbolic roots
of our Degree system, including the Kabbalah. . ."

"There is no doubt that there is a confluence between Freemasonry and the
ancient Hebrew religion. This present study seeks to establish that there
is a parallel between certain themes from the Kabbalah and Freemasonry."

Not to mention the 32 steps of the Tree of Life, the list goes on and on and
on.

The response from the various members of alt.freemasonry was as expected -
fingers plugging up both ears with eyes closed, "nya nya I can't hear you
nya nya". You guys have no clue what freemasonry is, that's how convoluted
and self-obsessed you are - you will even deny the very quotes from your
own scholars and lodge brothers, just to justify your own actions.

That's not a fraternity, and that's not a religion - that's confusion.

This doesn't even take into consideration some of the more blatant heretical
lines of thought that I've seen posted over the last few days - that Daniel
practiced sorcery, Jesus Christ was a Pharisee, Lucifer was just a minor
angel, etc. You won't even touch the Tubal Cain issue, because there is
nothing you can possibly say about it.

These sentiments are all indicative of the self ingratiating nature of
freemasonry - in short, you believe that little worm voice in your head
when he intimates to you that YOU are god, YOU run the show, YOU can
translate the Scriptures as you see fit and pollute the minds of the lower
rank and file with your poisonous libel. Out of every freemason I've ever
talked to, each one has said "I don't know that I necessarily believe in an
entity called Lucifer or Satan." That is amazing to me, simply amazing.
You've created your own surrogate belief system, a cult of personality that
revolves around secrecy and a virtual caste system based in part on the
Kabbalah's Tree of Life.

"god is man, and man is god" is the culmination of your efforts. That one
phrase whispered into your ear at the 33rd degree is the sum total of what
you've accomplished with your life in the fraternity of freemasonry, a
sentiment that will ultimately lead to your own destruction at the twilight
of your existence.

Freemasonry is an occult practice, the roots of which began with and
continue in the Kabbalah and Babylonian Talmud.

Christianity and Kabbalah worship are completely incompatible, and if you
fancy yourself a Christian you must choose one or the other.

Christian or freemason, it's that simple.

End of alt.freemasonry for me, adios.


Regards,

Gregory Perry

jhdolan

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Oct 11, 2003, 1:30:08 PM10/11/03
to
Gregory Perry wrote:


> Christian or freemason, it's that simple.

Or both or even neither.



> End of alt.freemasonry for me, adios.

A hearty dios to you too.

jHam WM You have the time, they might not:
White River #90 Feed the hungry with a click of your mouse:
Royalton (Bethel), Vt. http://www.thehungersite.com <- dare ya!

Joe Steve Swick III

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Oct 11, 2003, 1:47:47 PM10/11/03
to
___Gregory Perry___

"A careful look at many of the rites and rituals of Freemasonry reveals that
there is indeed much kabbalistic influence to be found there. Some of our
rites have obvious kabbalistic influence, such as the 28th degree of the
Ancient and Accepted Scottish rite which is called: 'The Knight of the Sun'"
(http://www.abaris.net/freemasonry/worrel/kabbalah.htm).

<snip of netquotes>

http://www.2be1ask1.com/library/kabbalah.html

THE MYSTERIES OF THE KABBALAH AND FREEMASONRY Bro. Raymond L. Schwartz,
Harmony Lodge No. 8, Newton, New Jersey, U. S. A.

"There is no doubt that there is a confluence between Freemasonry and the
ancient Hebrew religion. This present study seeks to establish that there is
a parallel between certain themes from the Kabbalah and Freemasonry. This
thesis will be developed by examining the works of authors devoted to the
Kabbalah and comparing them with the degrees and lectures of Freemasonry.
Gershom G. Scholem in his book, On the Kabbalab and its Symbolism, asserts
that "Kabbalistic speculation and doctrine is concerned with the realm of
the divine emanations or Sefiroth, in which God's creative power unfolds"
(Scholem, 1965)."

-----

So, the first quote suggests that there is "Kabbalistic influence,"
especially in the 28th Degree of the Scottish Rite, while the latter
suggests thematic parallels. This OF COURSE true! Among other things, the
Scottish Rite is intended as a survey of religious philosophy (i.e., a kind
of course in comparative religion) for its members. Just as the 18th Degree
focuses on Christian themes, so the 28th Degree focuses on the teachings of
the hermtic philosophers as well as the fundamental doctrines in the
Kabbalah. That does not mean one must be a Kabbalist in order to be a
Scottish Rite Mason -- any more than one must be a Christian. In fact,
Pike's personal opinion in the matter was that "the Kabalah ... as a
religious tradition, ... [was] a corruption of the religious teachings
which had found their true expression in the teachings of Zoroaster and in
the Vedas" (Hutchens, _Glossary_, 247). I hasten to add that one need not
accept Pike's theories in the matter, either. I certainly do not, although I
cannot help but be impressed by Pike's erudition -- i.e., the breadth and
depth of his thought.

Now, in order for you to defend your position, (since you are the one making
the claim), you must be able to:

1) Cite SPECIFIC instances where Freemasonry draws from the Jewish Mystical
Tradition, or Kabbalah (not simply "It's in the 28th Degree"); and
a) demonstrate that the SPECIFIC material which you assert is "drawn"
from this tradition is in fact "in direct opposition to Christianity."

2) Demonstrate where Freemasonry has drawn from the Babylonian Talmud.
Please provide a cite both to the Masonic ritual, and to the precise
location in the Babylonian Talmud where the so-called "borrowing" occurred.

3) You have elsewhere claimed that both the Talmud and the Kabbalah are
sorcery, and that Freemasonry is likewise sorcery. In your mind, what
SPECIFIC parts of Freemasonry are "sorcery" Mr. Perry? I'm not looking for
generalized statements, but specific quotes from the ritual, since that is
where the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

Elsewhere, I have provided significant quotes from both the Talmud and the
Kabbalistic tradition which are not at all out of keeping with Christianity,
thereby demonstrating that even if you can demonstrate it, borrowing alone
does not make Masonry "in direct opposition to Christianity." The precise
nature of the borrowing is the issue.

Cheers,
JSW


Joe Steve Swick III

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Oct 11, 2003, 1:50:00 PM10/11/03
to
___Glen A. Cook___

You've made comments about higher Freemasons. Who are these higher
Freemasons?

___George K___


Glen, you have obviously never heard of the Rastafarian Masons !!! <VBWG>

----

The Rasta Degree? Must be from the "Ohhhhh So Rite."

JSW


Joe Steve Swick III

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Oct 11, 2003, 2:45:42 PM10/11/03
to
___Glen A. Cook___

You've made comments about higher Freemasons. Who are these higher
Freemasons?

___Peter Renzland___


He did? In this thread? I think not.

----

Actually, Peter, Mr. Perry has been taking a serious drubbing in other
threads (in which I do seem to recall him making comments about "higher
masons").

It appears that he has started THIS thread as a way to disengage from these
other messy arguments he has involved himself in, so that he can make a more
graceful exit from our forum.

Cheers,
JSW


David Simpson

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Oct 11, 2003, 3:55:27 PM10/11/03
to
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:05:44 GMT, Peter Renzland
<phr...@sympatico.ca> typed furiously:

>
> "Sunday October 26 2003 at 2:00PM the Rosicrucian Society
> of Canada will be hosting the second part on the Qabbalah
> (QABALAH) at the Axxxxxx xxxxxx temple.
>
> This lecture is open to all:Masons, non masons, Men, and Women.
> RSVP: xxxxxxx"
>
>-- Pete

Pete, perhaps you should read all the threads to which Mr. Perry has
been a respondent before posting further.

--
Regards
David Simpson (Remove "farook" to reply)
(Unattached MM)
Bad manners should not be a capital crime ...
for a first offence.
Robert Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"

Joe Steve Swick III

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Oct 11, 2003, 5:47:53 PM10/11/03
to
___Gregory Perry___

You guys have no clue what freemasonry is
----

LOL! Speak for yourself, Mr. Perry. For those keeping score:

1) You claimed that "JABULON" was a secret Masonic name for Deity. I
demonstrated that this was incorrect.
2) You claimed that "JABULON" referred to the pagan deity "Ba'al." I
demonstrated that this was likewise incorrect.
3) You asserted without evidence that Freemasonry was somehow connected with
Asherah worship.
4) You asserted that John Dee was the founder of Freemasonry. I challenged
you for a citation, which you were unable to produce.
5) You claimed that I was wrong to assert that Daniel was an Astrologer to
King Nebuchadnezzar, and bore the official title, "Rab Chartomia," or "Chief
Astrologer." You were later forced to concede my point.
6) You claimed that Jesus spoke out against the oral tradition of the
Pharisees. I demonstrated that Jesus instructed his followers to FOLLOW that
oral tradition, and himself recognized the authority of the Pharisees.
7) You claimed that Freemasonry was sorcery, but were unable to provide a
single bit of ritual evidence in support of your claim.
8) You claimed that Freemasonry was in opposition to Christianity because it
borrowed from Kabbalah and the Babylonian Talmud; yet you were unable to
demonstrate that any aspect, which Freemasonry might have borrowed from
these traditions, exhibited the least hostility towards Christianity.
9) You claimed not to be an antisemite because you were sympathetic with the
plight of the Palestinians and abhorred the treatment of Arabs. I
demonstrated that the word "antisemitism" is generally understood to
restrictively apply to hatred of Jews and Judaism, and was in fact coined by
Wilhelm Marr as a suitable euphemism for the word "Judenhass" or
"Jew-hatred."
10) Your evidence for your claims is largely based upon the work of a
notorious historical revisionist Michael A. Hoffman II, who not only wrote
"Judaism's Strange Gods," -- a rant against Judaism, but also "Masonic
Assassins," which posits that Freemasons killed William Morgan, Joseph
Smith, and Edgar Allan Poe.

You now suggest you'd like to leave because we apparently don't know as much
about Freemasonry as you.

:-))

___Gregory Perry___


you will even deny the very quotes from your own scholars and lodge
brothers, just to justify your own actions.

-----

I don't suppose we "deny the very quotes from our own scholars and lodge
brothers." Rather, we expect that every statement is held up to rigorous
examination, and we feel free to reject that which does not accord with
reason and our own experience.

___Gregory Perry___


That's not a fraternity, and that's not a religion - that's confusion.

------

Actually, I prefer to call it INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM, Mr. Perry. Masons are
encouraged to think for themselves.

___Gregory Perry___


This doesn't even take into consideration some of the more blatant heretical
lines of thought that I've seen posted over the last few days - that Daniel
practiced sorcery

-----

Tsk, tsk, Mr. Perry. Let us not micharacterize the discussions here -- in
fact, NO ONE said any such thing, except you in this very post! I merely
demonstrated that Daniel was Court Astrologer to King Nebuchadnezzar, and in
fact had the official title of RAB CHARTOMIA -- "Chief of the Astrologers,"
or "Master of the Magicians," if you prefer. Now, if this is heresy, then
the Bible itself is the source of it, Mr. Perry.

I further pointed out that while Daniel claimed to be able to divine dreams
by aid of Deity, that strictly speaking, divination is considered an occult
art, and knowledge of its contents is by definition "occult knowledge." I
nowhere stated that Daniel practices sorcery. This is a very specific thing,
defined quite precisely in Mosaic Law. So, if you believe that

___Gregory Perry___


Jesus Christ was a Pharisee,

-----

The scriptures strongly suggest that this is true. Contrary to your opining
that Jesus rejected the "Oral Tradition," Jesus actually commanded his
followers to DO all that the Pharisees SAY, because they SIT IN MOSES' SEAT.
This provides evidence from Jesus' own mouth that he acknowledged the
authority of the Pharisees. Again, if there is any heresy here, then the
Bible is the source of it.

___Gregory Perry___


Lucifer was just a minor angel, etc.

----

I don't recall any posting by you on this subject at all -- and a google
search does not show any posting by you which includes the word "Lucifer."

___Gregory Perry___


You won't even touch the Tubal Cain issue, because there is nothing you can
possibly say about it.

-----

Actually, I posted a reply to you on this subject, and was quite
disappointed that you chose not to respond. I don't know what you might
possibly mean by "the Tubal Cain issue," since I certainly don't see it as
an issue in Freemasonry. You might as well be talking about the "daily mail
issue" at the post office, or the "reading the Bible issue" in Christianity.

___Gregory Perry___


These sentiments are all indicative of the self ingratiating nature of
freemasonry - in short, you believe that little worm voice in your head when
he intimates to you that YOU are god

-----

Actually, Freemasonry does not dictate to any of its members what they shall
believe about the Supreme Being, any more than the Boy Scouts so dictate.
Masonry certainly does not tell a man that HE is a god. Perhaps you would be
so kind as to show where in its instruction such an idea may be found?

___Gregory Perry___
YOU run the show
-----

But I DO run the show. In the United States, "running the show" is called
"the right to liberty and the pursuit of individual self-interest."

___Gregory Perry___


YOU can translate the Scriptures as you see fit

-----

Translating the Scriptures as I see fit was one of the issues leading to the
Reformation, was it not? The idea of

___Gregory Perry___


and pollute the minds of the lower rank and file with your poisonous libel.

----

The lower rank and file? So, you still believe that there is some kind of
"higher Mason"? Who might these "higher Masons" be, Mr. Perry?

___Gregory Perry___


Out of every freemason I've ever talked to, each one has said "I don't know
that I necessarily believe in an entity called Lucifer or Satan." That is
amazing to me, simply amazing.

-----

Freemasonry is not a religion, and does not concern itself with such matters
as the individual's belief or disbelief in an entity called Lucifer or
Satan. This is a matter of their personal religious tradition, not of their
Lodge affiliation. Based upon religious affiliation, I assume that there are
indeed folks on this very forum who believe in "an entity called Lucifer or
Satan."

___Gregory Perry___


You've created your own surrogate belief system, a cult of personality

----

Surrogate belief system? Surrogate for WHAT?
Cult of WHOSE personality?

___Gregory Perry___
[Freemasonry] revolves around secrecy and a virtual caste system based in


part on the Kabbalah's Tree of Life.

------

Actually, as most historians and competent writers have noted, Freemasonry
is exceedingly egalitarian, and its "secrets" are few. Even IF one were to
concede that it is "based in part on the Kabbalah's Tree of Life," you have
in no way demonstrated this fact, or shown why it would be a bad thing.

___Gregory Perry___


"god is man, and man is god" is the culmination of your efforts. That one
phrase whispered into your ear at the 33rd degree is the sum total of what
you've accomplished with your life in the fraternity of freemasonry, a
sentiment that will ultimately lead to your own destruction at the twilight
of your existence.

----

Really? I hvae several versions of the 33rd Degree ritual, none of which
contain these words. Perhaps you would be so kind as to cite the specific
source for you claim?

___Gregory Perry___


Freemasonry is an occult practice, the roots of which began with and
continue in the Kabbalah and Babylonian Talmud.

----

What specific practices in Freemasonry do you consider to be "occult," Mr.
Perry?

___Gregory Perry___


Christianity and Kabbalah worship are completely incompatible, and if you
fancy yourself a Christian you must choose one or the other. Christian or
freemason, it's that simple.

-----

By whose ipse dixit, Mr. Perry? I assert that Freemasonry is generally
compatible with Christianity (depending upon the particular denomination),
and that most Christians need not make the choice you here suggest.

___Gregory Perry___


End of alt.freemasonry for me, adios.

-----

All Masons in this forum will now stand and cheer your much-awaited
departure!

Don't let the e-door hit you in the rump as you make your exit, Mr. Perry.
It might look bad.

Joe Swick, PM
Verity Lodge No. 59 F&AM
Kent, Washington


Joe Steve Swick III

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 5:52:36 PM10/11/03
to
___Glen A. Cook___

You've made comments about higher Freemasons. Who are these higher
Freemasons?

___Peter Renzland___


He did? In this thread? I think not.

----

Actually, he has repeated it in this thread, as well, Peter. Here it is, in
case you missed it:

====


"These sentiments are all indicative of the self ingratiating nature of
freemasonry - in short, you believe that little worm voice in your head when

he intimates to you that YOU are god, YOU run the show, YOU can translate
the Scriptures as you see fit and pollute the minds of the lower rank and


file with your poisonous libel.

====

The "lower rank and file" are the operative words here, Brother Renzland.
He also said that Freemasonry was a Kabbalah-inspired caste system, which
similarly implies this kind of ranking.

Cheers,

Peter Renzland

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 5:50:48 PM10/11/03
to

That explains why I hadn't seen what Glen was referring to.
Hot pursuit across thread boundaries. Scary! :-)

-- Peter

Peter Renzland

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 6:09:24 PM10/11/03
to
Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> ___Glen A. Cook___
> You've made comments about higher Freemasons. Who are these higher
> Freemasons?
>
> ___Peter Renzland___
> He did? In this thread? I think not.
> ----
>
> Actually, he has repeated it in this thread, as well, Peter. Here it is, in
> case you missed it:
>
>====
> "These sentiments are all indicative of the self ingratiating nature of
> freemasonry - in short, you believe that little worm voice in your head when
> he intimates to you that YOU are god, YOU run the show, YOU can translate
> the Scriptures as you see fit and pollute the minds of the lower rank and
> file with your poisonous libel.
>====

And Glen questioned him about it 11 hours *before* he wrote it!!!
Those higher FM's can see the future. WOW!! Can't wait! :-)

-- Pete

Gene Zippy

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 7:49:01 PM10/11/03
to
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:05:44 GMT, Peter Renzland
<phr...@sympatico.ca> interestingly poked out:

>2. Gene derides Gregory for posting 91 lines *without* comment.

I didn't "deride" him. I just noted that he did not express a single
thought of his own. Makes me wonder why he bothers to post.

Gene Zippy

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 8:10:33 PM10/11/03
to
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:32 GMT, Gregory Perry
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:

>Over the past week, I've posted questions and comments pertaining to the


>origins and history of the symbols included within freemasonry.

And the very few questions you have asked have all been answered - to
no apparent avail, but accurately.

>I've also
>made a few statements about the inherent incompatibility between
>Christianity and freemasonry,

None of which bore any resemblance to being supported by facts...

>I've posted direct quotes from Albert Pike, a masonic scholar and Kabbalist
>that is quoted and included in virtually every site on the Internet
>pertaining to freemasonry that I've browsed -

Yes, isn't it wonderful what can be done with search engines? One can
carefully select exactly and only the sites that they want to see, and
(if so inclined) ignore any that do not fit their expectations.

>in those quotes, Pike states
>that all religions came from and return to the Kabbalah, and also states
>that freemasonry is in fact a religion. However, according to the sages
>from alt.freemasonry, Pike had nothing to do with the lodge (!!!)

No, Pike was a member of a Lodge somewhere (South Carolina, I think),
but he never had anything to do with making any changes in Masonry.
His influence was confined to a small ancillary organization -
relatively unknown outside the US, and having a small minority of
American Masons as members. Not significant to Masonry, by any means.

>and only
>played a minor role in formulating the precepts and principles of modern
>day freemasonry.

That would be NO role at all, outside his ancillary organization.


>
>After being scolded for even considering Pike's literature, I've posted
>several bits of information regarding the occult nature of the Kabbalah,
>most of which was taken from Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods".

None of which had anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.

>Just
>mentioning Hoffman's book in conjunction with freemasonry immediately got
>me labeled a Neo-Nazi sympathizer and a bigot,

No, it was the neo-nazi, bigoted comments you made, and conclusions
you reached that did it.

>although I've been emphatic
>about my lack of hate for any race, creed, or color - mere possession of
>Hoffman's book is apparently enough to be considered a holocaust denying
>Neo-Nazi white supremacist, and with that logic since I own a copy of
>Aesop's Fables maybe I should also be considered a Greek poet as well, or
>at least a Greek poet sympathizer. Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods"
>contains specific quotes pertaining to the anti-Christian nature of the
>Babylonian Talmud and Kabbalah, and goes into a great bit of meticulously
>documented detail about the origins of the oral traditions of the Pharisees
>and Saducees, traditions of which Jesus Christ spoke out against on
>multiple occasions.

None of which has anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.

>The Babylonian Talmud has been severely censored by
>the Roman Catholic Church and others that wish to cover up the fact that
>the Babylonian Talmud preaches anti-Christian bigotry, so go out and
>purchase your own uncensored copy of the Babylonian Talmud and read those
>passages for yourself: Steinsaltz, Rabbi Adin, Goldberg (ed.), The Talmud,
>The Steinsaltz Edition, New York, Random House, 1999. In addition, before
>reading ADL-sponsored tripe (you know, the same ADL that funded the lawsuit
>removing the 10 Commandments from an Alabama courtroom, that ADL) about
>Hoffman being a Neo Nazi bigot, you might learn something by spending $9.95
>on his book and reading it instead of regurgitating the propaganda that's
>been spoon fed to you by the ADL.

None of which has anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.

>I then did some additional research on the Kabbalah and its implications on
>freemasonry using one simple search term, google "Scottish Rite" +kabbalah,
>the first 20 results of which I posted to alt.freemasonry that clearly and
>unequivocally show that, according to your own brothers, the origins of
>freemasonry do in fact stem from the Kabbalah and Kabbalistic mysticism:

<LOL>
Well, you decided to interpret things that way, so I guess it makes
sense to you.

>The response from the various members of alt.freemasonry was as expected -
>fingers plugging up both ears with eyes closed, "nya nya I can't hear you
>nya nya".

What did you say? I wasn't paying attention.

>You guys have no clue what freemasonry is,

<ROFL>
Let me get this straight. "We", who have been members of the
fraternity of Freemasonry for years, even decades, who have presided
over multiple Lodges, conferred hundreds of Degrees, and taught every
lesson that the fraternity has to teach,
we "have no clue what freemasonry is"?
But you, who have never been a Mason, and obviously have no factual or
experiential knowledge of what the fraternity is and is not, know all
about it. Right?
<ROFL>

You really should get an agent. You are quite amusing.

>that's how convoluted
>and self-obsessed you are - you will even deny the very quotes from your
>own scholars and lodge brothers, just to justify your own actions.

We don't "deny" what they said, we just understand that it doesn't
mean what you want (or is it need) it to mean.

> Out of every freemason I've ever
>talked to, each one has said "I don't know that I necessarily believe in an
>entity called Lucifer or Satan."

I certainly don't. But I'm not a Christian, and that is a Christian
invention.

>Freemasonry is an occult practice, the roots of which began with and
>continue in the Kabbalah and Babylonian Talmud.

Oh? How? In which of the Three Degrees of Masonry is that found?

>Christianity and Kabbalah worship are completely incompatible, and if you
>fancy yourself a Christian you must choose one or the other.

<LOL>

>Christian or freemason, it's that simple.
>
>End of alt.freemasonry for me, adios.
>

Well, don't go away mad.

Hasta la vista.

Gene Zippy

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 8:11:29 PM10/11/03
to
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:47:53 GMT, "Joe Steve Swick III"
<jsw...@mindspring.com> interestingly poked out:

>You now suggest you'd like to leave because we apparently don't know as much
>about Freemasonry as you.

Well, for Pete's sake, don't try to talk him out of it!

Peter Renzland

unread,
Oct 11, 2003, 9:15:35 PM10/11/03
to
>> You now suggest you'd like to leave because we apparently
>> don't know as much about Freemasonry as you.
>
> Well, for Pete's sake, don't try to talk him out of it!

Now it's all my fault, eh? :-)

(I did think the thread started out kinda interesting.)

-- Pete

Jim Bennie

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 12:20:49 AM10/12/03
to
In <ed5hov050patp8v8f...@4ax.com>, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·.

<br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:32 GMT, Gregory Perry
> <gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
> >Over the past week, I've posted questions and comments pertaining to the
> >origins and history of the symbols included within freemasonry.

> And the very few questions you have asked have all been answered - to
> no apparent avail, but accurately.

While huge, gaping holes have been left behind when asked simple
questions like "please quote from the Masonic ceremonies where this
is mentioned."

Instead, such went simply unanswered and the same irrelevant nonsense
was robotically posted over and over. So much for "research".

> >I've posted direct quotes from Albert Pike, a masonic scholar and Kabbalist
> >that is quoted and included in virtually every site on the Internet
> >pertaining to freemasonry that I've browsed -

> Yes, isn't it wonderful what can be done with search engines? One can
> carefully select exactly and only the sites that they want to see, and
> (if so inclined) ignore any that do not fit their expectations.

Even more remarkable, Gene, was the comment about "mortals". It doesn't
make much sense to dismiss opinions made by "mortals" and then prattle
on with "direct quotes" from Al Pike as if they're authoritative.

I notice the failure to use the term "Christian" next to Pike's name
above. Using the Perry illogic, if Pike was a Christian and a Kabbalist,
then all Christians (including Mr. Perry) are Kabbalists.

> His influence was confined to a small ancillary organization -
> relatively unknown outside the US, and having a small minority of
> American Masons as members. Not significant to Masonry, by any means.

Mr. Perry's bee-in-a-bonnet seems to involve only ancillery
organisations, as if they're Freemasonry itself. Constant talk about
the Royal Arch degree and the 28th and 33rd degrees. Does *any*
Scottish Rite valley actually confer Pike's version of the 28th?

He kinda skipped past the KT orders, didn't he? I'd be interested
to learn how "defending the Christian faith" is anti-Christian.

> >The response from the various members of alt.freemasonry was as expected -
> >fingers plugging up both ears with eyes closed, "nya nya I can't hear you
> >nya nya".

> What did you say? I wasn't paying attention.

Evidently, neither was Mr. Perry. The "response" to a number of his claims
was "quote from the Masonic ceremonies where it says that." In each case,
he conveniently didn't answer. No surprise, as Freemasonry doesn't
advocate or teach such.

> Let me get this straight. "We", who have been members of the
> fraternity of Freemasonry for years, even decades, who have presided
> over multiple Lodges, conferred hundreds of Degrees, and taught every
> lesson that the fraternity has to teach,
> we "have no clue what freemasonry is"?
> But you, who have never been a Mason, and obviously have no factual or
> experiential knowledge of what the fraternity is and is not, know all
> about it. Right?
> <ROFL>

If only television was so entertaining. Just think if he had followed
through with his promise to post how <chuckle> Freemasonry killed his
business.

> >Freemasonry is an occult practice, the roots of which began with and
> >continue in the Kabbalah and Babylonian Talmud.

> Oh? How? In which of the Three Degrees of Masonry is that found?

It's simple, Gene. Espousing the ideals of faith, hope, charity,
truth, brotherly love, and so on .. it's the core of the Babylonian
talmud, whatever that is. Get with the programme!

Gee, he and that Royism guy would be quite a pair, wouldn't they?

> Hasta la vista.

Sorry, Gene, they've picked a governor already.

Jim Bennie

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 12:25:16 AM10/12/03
to
In <ed5hov050patp8v8f...@4ax.com>, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·.
<br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:32 GMT, Gregory Perry
> <gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
> >Over the past week, I've posted questions and comments pertaining to the
> >origins and history of the symbols included within freemasonry.

> And the very few questions you have asked have all been answered - to
> no apparent avail, but accurately.

While huge, gaping holes have been left behind when asked simple


questions like "please quote from the Masonic ceremonies where this
is mentioned."

Instead, such went simply unanswered and the same irrelevant nonsense
was robotically posted over and over. So much for "research".

> >I've posted direct quotes from Albert Pike, a masonic scholar and Kabbalist


> >that is quoted and included in virtually every site on the Internet
> >pertaining to freemasonry that I've browsed -

> Yes, isn't it wonderful what can be done with search engines? One can
> carefully select exactly and only the sites that they want to see, and
> (if so inclined) ignore any that do not fit their expectations.

Even more remarkable, Gene, was the comment about "mortals". It doesn't

make much sense to dismiss opinions made by "mortals" and then prattle
on with "direct quotes" from Al Pike as if they're authoritative.

I notice the failure to use the term "Christian" next to Pike's name
above. Using the Perry illogic, if Pike was a Christian and a Kabbalist,
then all Christians (including Mr. Perry) are Kabbalists.

> His influence was confined to a small ancillary organization -


> relatively unknown outside the US, and having a small minority of
> American Masons as members. Not significant to Masonry, by any means.

Mr. Perry's bee-in-a-bonnet seems to involve only ancillery


organisations, as if they're Freemasonry itself. Constant talk about
the Royal Arch degree and the 28th and 33rd degrees. Does *any*
Scottish Rite valley actually confer Pike's version of the 28th?

He kinda skipped past the KT orders, didn't he? I'd be interested
to learn how "defending the Christian faith" is anti-Christian.

> >The response from the various members of alt.freemasonry was as expected -


> >fingers plugging up both ears with eyes closed, "nya nya I can't hear you
> >nya nya".

> What did you say? I wasn't paying attention.

Evidently, neither was Mr. Perry. The "response" to a number of his claims


was "quote from the Masonic ceremonies where it says that." In each case,
he conveniently didn't answer. No surprise, as Freemasonry doesn't
advocate or teach such.

> Let me get this straight. "We", who have been members of the


> fraternity of Freemasonry for years, even decades, who have presided
> over multiple Lodges, conferred hundreds of Degrees, and taught every
> lesson that the fraternity has to teach,
> we "have no clue what freemasonry is"?
> But you, who have never been a Mason, and obviously have no factual or
> experiential knowledge of what the fraternity is and is not, know all
> about it. Right?
> <ROFL>

If only television was so entertaining. Just think if he had followed


through with his promise to post how <chuckle> Freemasonry killed his
business.

> >Freemasonry is an occult practice, the roots of which began with and


> >continue in the Kabbalah and Babylonian Talmud.

> Oh? How? In which of the Three Degrees of Masonry is that found?

It's simple, Gene. Espousing the ideals of faith, hope, charity,

Mike Wells

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 7:48:00 AM10/12/03
to

"Jim Bennie" <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:bmakr1$4l3$1...@vcn.bc.ca...

> Mr. Perry's bee-in-a-bonnet seems to involve only ancillery
> organisations, as if they're Freemasonry itself. Constant talk about
> the Royal Arch degree and the 28th and 33rd degrees. Does *any*
> Scottish Rite valley actually confer Pike's version of the 28th?

No, the AASR, SJ of which Pike was a member has revised its Degree work and,
in doing so, has ceased presenting the Degrees as written by Pike.

Mike


Jim Bennie

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 4:15:50 PM10/12/03
to
In <Qbbib.34842$mQ2....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "Mike Wells"

Then I wonder if any Valley under the SJ confers the 28th degree, or
if it's merely communicated.

We did the 28th for a couple of years.

Jim Bennie
32o BC Consistory

Mike Wells

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 4:42:28 PM10/12/03
to

"Jim Bennie" <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:bmccpm$omq$1...@vcn.bc.ca...

In the NMJ, of which I am a member, the Valley has the option of presenting
Degree work in addition to the required Degrees making the 28th optional.
For the SJ, I am uninformed on the matter.

Mike


nukleus

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 5:19:12 PM10/12/03
to
In article <bmakr1$4l3$1...@vcn.bc.ca>, jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca (Jim Bennie) wrote:
>In <ed5hov050patp8v8f...@4ax.com>, Gene "Zippy" Goldman.·.
><br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:32 GMT, Gregory Perry
>> <gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>> >Over the past week, I've posted questions and comments pertaining to the
>> >origins and history of the symbols included within freemasonry.
>
>> And the very few questions you have asked have all been answered - to
>> no apparent avail, but accurately.
>
>While huge, gaping holes have been left behind when asked simple
>questions like "please quote from the Masonic ceremonies where this
>is mentioned."

And since freemasonry is the secret cult
going as far, as using passwords to recognize one another,
where are your 'ceremonies' are published?

One more time: What is this 'craft' thing?

>Instead, such went simply unanswered and the same irrelevant nonsense
>was robotically posted over and over. So much for "research".

Irrelevant nonsense and poisonous lies is what YOU have,
you perverts.

Enough.

nukleus

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 5:19:08 PM10/12/03
to
In article <ed5hov050patp8v8f...@4ax.com>,
br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:32 GMT, Gregory Perry
><gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:

>>I've posted direct quotes from Albert Pike, a masonic scholar and Kabbalist


>>that is quoted and included in virtually every site on the Internet
>>pertaining to freemasonry that I've browsed -
>
>Yes, isn't it wonderful what can be done with search engines? One can
>carefully select exactly and only the sites that they want to see, and
>(if so inclined) ignore any that do not fit their expectations.
>
>>in those quotes, Pike states
>>that all religions came from and return to the Kabbalah, and also states
>>that freemasonry is in fact a religion. However, according to the sages
>>from alt.freemasonry, Pike had nothing to do with the lodge (!!!)
>
>No, Pike was a member of a Lodge somewhere (South Carolina, I think),
>but he never had anything to do with making any changes in Masonry.
>His influence was confined to a small ancillary organization -
>relatively unknown outside the US, and having a small minority of
>American Masons as members. Not significant to Masonry, by any means.

Pike was one of the MOST prominent freemasons on record,
you lil poisonous snake of masonic disinformation peddler.
There is even a library dedicated to him in Washington, DC.

Compared to Pike, you, lil pervert, are just a hissing sound.

>>and only
>>played a minor role in formulating the precepts and principles of modern
>>day freemasonry.

MAJOR role.

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious
name to give to the Spirit of Darkness!
Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears
the Light, and with it's splendors intolerable blinds
feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!

Morals and Dogma, page 321
Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
Sovereign Grand Commander Supreme Council 33°,
The Mother Supreme Council of the World

"We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists,
and we shall provoke a formidable
social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the
effects of absolute atheism, origin
of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend
themselves against the world minority of
revolutionaries, will exterminate those
destroyers of civilization, and the multitude,
disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic
spirits will be from that moment without compass,
anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where
to render its adoration, will receive the pure
doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the
public view, a manifestation which will result
from the general reactionary movement which will
follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism,
both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
Letter 15 August 1871
Addressed to Grand Master Guiseppie Mazzini 33°
Archives British Museum
London, England

>That would be NO role at all, outside his ancillary organization.

This seems to be bordering on senile.
Pike, a criminal was pardoned by the US president.
That does not look like some "minor role".

"Pike became a Convicted War Criminal in a
War Crimes Trial held after the Civil Wars end.
He had fled to British Territory in Canada.
Pike only returned to the U.S. after
his hand picked Scottish Rite Succsessor
James Richardon 33° got a pardon for him after,
making President Jackson a 33° Scottish Mason
in a ceremony held inside the White House itself!"

>>After being scolded for even considering Pike's literature, I've posted
>>several bits of information regarding the occult nature of the Kabbalah,
>>most of which was taken from Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods".

>None of which had anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.

What does or what does NOT have to do with freemasonry
can only be considered once you open up all your secrets.

First of all, what is "craft", you 'brotherhood' or a
"charitable organization" or a club of some sorts
as you claim yourself to be depending on the agenda
of deception you persue at the moment?

One more time:

What
is
craft?

>>Just
>>mentioning Hoffman's book in conjunction with freemasonry immediately got
>>me labeled a Neo-Nazi sympathizer and a bigot,

>No, it was the neo-nazi, bigoted comments you made, and conclusions
>you reached that did it.

Masonic deception and fabrication is quite sophisticated indeed.
Some of it is outlined on this web page:

http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/

One of the most common tricks they use is to require 'proof'.
Secret cult requiring 'proof' is something well beyond obscene.
Prove that CIA did something.
How?

You see, first you'd have to open up those top secret archives.
Then, and ONLY then, we can even BEGIN to start talking about
'proofs', and you know it all too well.

Why is your 'brotherhood' is so secretive?
What kind of agenda do you pursue?

>>although I've been emphatic
>>about my lack of hate for any race, creed, or color - mere possession of
>>Hoffman's book is apparently enough to be considered a holocaust denying
>>Neo-Nazi white supremacist, and with that logic since I own a copy of
>>Aesop's Fables maybe I should also be considered a Greek poet as well, or
>>at least a Greek poet sympathizer. Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods"
>>contains specific quotes pertaining to the anti-Christian nature of the
>>Babylonian Talmud and Kabbalah, and goes into a great bit of meticulously
>>documented detail about the origins of the oral traditions of the Pharisees
>>and Saducees, traditions of which Jesus Christ spoke out against on
>>multiple occasions.
>
>None of which has anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.

Yes, it does.

Enough.

Joe Steve Swick III

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 8:11:27 PM10/12/03
to
___Jim___

Does *any* Scottish Rite valley actually confer Pike's version of the 28th?

___Mike___
The AASR, SJ of which Pike was a member has revised its Degree work and, in


doing so, has ceased presenting the Degrees as written by Pike.

___Jim___


Then I wonder if any Valley under the SJ confers the 28th degree, or if
it's merely communicated.
We did the 28th for a couple of years.

-----

Pikes discussion of the 28th comprises over one quarter of Morals and Dogma.
I've never seen the degree, and I feel cheated! :-)

JSW


Gene Zippy

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 9:28:47 PM10/12/03
to
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:20:49 +0000 (UTC), jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca (Jim
Bennie) interestingly poked out:

>While huge, gaping holes have been left behind when asked simple
>questions like "please quote from the Masonic ceremonies where this
>is mentioned."

Yes, well, as we know that there are no such quotes to be found, is it
surprising that our amusing little friend is silent?

>Instead, such went simply unanswered and the same irrelevant nonsense
>was robotically posted over and over. So much for "research".

Typical, actually.

>Even more remarkable, Gene, was the comment about "mortals". It doesn't
>make much sense to dismiss opinions made by "mortals" and then prattle
>on with "direct quotes" from Al Pike as if they're authoritative.

Maybe he belongs to one of those cults that believe they are immortal?

>I notice the failure to use the term "Christian" next to Pike's name
>above. Using the Perry illogic, if Pike was a Christian and a Kabbalist,
>then all Christians (including Mr. Perry) are Kabbalists.

Well, he DOES refer quite a bit to Kabbalah. It makes sense.

>Mr. Perry's bee-in-a-bonnet seems to involve only ancillery
>organisations, as if they're Freemasonry itself. Constant talk about
>the Royal Arch degree and the 28th and 33rd degrees. Does *any*
>Scottish Rite valley actually confer Pike's version of the 28th?
>
>He kinda skipped past the KT orders, didn't he? I'd be interested
>to learn how "defending the Christian faith" is anti-Christian.

I can't wait to hear that one, myself.

>If only television was so entertaining. Just think if he had followed
>through with his promise to post how <chuckle> Freemasonry killed his
>business.

Maybe we gave his business a terrible, fatal disease.

>It's simple, Gene. Espousing the ideals of faith, hope, charity,
>truth, brotherly love, and so on .. it's the core of the Babylonian
>talmud, whatever that is. Get with the programme!
>
>Gee, he and that Royism guy would be quite a pair, wouldn't they?

No kidding.
<LOL>

>> Hasta la vista.
>
>Sorry, Gene, they've picked a governor already.
>

Yes, we did, didn't we?

Jim Bennie

unread,
Oct 12, 2003, 11:22:34 PM10/12/03
to
nukleus <nuk...@invalid.addr> wrote:
> Irrelevant nonsense and poisonous lies is what YOU have,
> you perverts.

Hey, Face of Disgrace-guy! When you are going to reveal the names of
the Masons you keep claiming are destroying the environment? Tell
us the lodges they belong to as proof of their Masonic membership.
Go ahead! I'm giving yet *another* chance to do it. W.C. Fields
doesn't count this time.

Malcolm Tucker

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 1:03:33 AM10/13/03
to

"nukleus" <nuk...@invalid.addr> wrote in message
news:bmcgfb$e2a$2...@toster.Te.NeT.UA...

>
> One more time: What is this 'craft' thing?
>
Craft, noun, boat or vessel of any kind.
craft is used collectively without plural suffix : the harbour was full of
all manner of craft.

Hope it helps

malcolm


Jim Bennie

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 1:53:20 AM10/13/03
to
In <P4mib.8307$av5...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Joe Steve Swick

III" <jsw...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Pikes discussion of the 28th comprises over one quarter of Morals and Dogma.
> I've never seen the degree, and I feel cheated! :-)

Several years ago, some of the younger A&ASR members here got together
and decided to get a team together to confer the degree because they felt
it was the most profound one in the Scottish Rite. Unfortunately, the team
disbanded and I never got to see the degree.

Canada, by the way, was formed from the Northern Jurisdiction
(appropriate, I guess :)

Scottish Rite (and Preceptory) both meet on my lodge night, so I only
get there when they meet on a weekend. They do that twice a year, so
I'll try to see 30 and 31 again this month and 14 next month.

Speaking of the Shrine, how is the A&ASR doing down in Seattle since
the change?

bryan

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 5:09:12 AM10/13/03
to

hi malcolm

i still have a bunch of rand left over from my visit to durban...
would your lodge like a donation?

regards

bryan

David Simpson

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 6:52:08 AM10/13/03
to
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:19:08 GMT, nuk...@invalid.addr (nukleus) typed
furiously:

>In article <ed5hov050patp8v8f...@4ax.com>,
>br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net wrote:
>>On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:32 GMT, Gregory Perry
>><gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>
>>>I've posted direct quotes from Albert Pike, a masonic scholar and Kabbalist
>>>that is quoted and included in virtually every site on the Internet
>>>pertaining to freemasonry that I've browsed -
>>
>>Yes, isn't it wonderful what can be done with search engines? One can
>>carefully select exactly and only the sites that they want to see, and
>>(if so inclined) ignore any that do not fit their expectations.
>>
>>>in those quotes, Pike states
>>>that all religions came from and return to the Kabbalah, and also states
>>>that freemasonry is in fact a religion. However, according to the sages
>>>from alt.freemasonry, Pike had nothing to do with the lodge (!!!)
>>
>>No, Pike was a member of a Lodge somewhere (South Carolina, I think),
>>but he never had anything to do with making any changes in Masonry.
>>His influence was confined to a small ancillary organization -
>>relatively unknown outside the US, and having a small minority of
>>American Masons as members. Not significant to Masonry, by any means.
>
>Pike was one of the MOST prominent freemasons on record,
>you lil poisonous snake of masonic disinformation peddler.
>There is even a library dedicated to him in Washington, DC.
>

While there may be a library dedicated to him in Washington that does
not mean that he was a prominent Freemason. Most Freemasons throughout
the world have never heard of the man.

He did have, so I have been told, a large influence on the Scottish
Rite of the Southern Jurisdiction. The Scottish Rite (SR) is a side
organisation that Freemasons may join if they so desire. It is not
compulsory. Less than 20% of Freemasons actually join the SR.

The Southern Jurisdiction is, I'm led to believe, smaller in numbers
than the Northern Jurisdiction. The NJ does not mention Pike at all.

Outside of North America there are few Scottish Rite organisations and
none of them mention Pike at all.

Thus you have a few Freemasons who have heard of Pike. This number is
restricted to the members of the SJ of the SR. A minority of a
minority and you want Pike to be a Giant. Sorry but he is only a
minnow in a very large sea.

Do you have verifiable proof of this claim?

>>>After being scolded for even considering Pike's literature, I've posted
>>>several bits of information regarding the occult nature of the Kabbalah,
>>>most of which was taken from Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods".
>
>>None of which had anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.
>
>What does or what does NOT have to do with freemasonry
>can only be considered once you open up all your secrets.
>

What secrets? The names of people to whom we extend relief? The amount
of money we give to charity? Those are definitely secret. The rest of
our supposed secrets are available in most public libraries for anyone
to read.

>First of all, what is "craft", you 'brotherhood' or a
>"charitable organization" or a club of some sorts
>as you claim yourself to be depending on the agenda
>of deception you persue at the moment?
>
>One more time:
>
>What
>is
>craft?
>

Craft is handiwork. Needle craft, Woodwork, Stonework, etc. are all
crafts. Most crafts require a learned skill. Freemasonry is a craft
because you have to learn to behave in an honest and upright manner.
It's a shame that you can't learn those lessons.

>>>Just
>>>mentioning Hoffman's book in conjunction with freemasonry immediately got
>>>me labeled a Neo-Nazi sympathizer and a bigot,
>
>>No, it was the neo-nazi, bigoted comments you made, and conclusions
>>you reached that did it.
>
>Masonic deception and fabrication is quite sophisticated indeed.
>Some of it is outlined on this web page:
>
>http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/
>

LOL. A mishmash of innuendo, hate and lies joined together by
appalling English.

>One of the most common tricks they use is to require 'proof'.
>Secret cult requiring 'proof' is something well beyond obscene.
>Prove that CIA did something.
>How?
>

You make the claim. You prove that it is so. Simple. Nothing obscene
about it at all.

>You see, first you'd have to open up those top secret archives.
>Then, and ONLY then, we can even BEGIN to start talking about
>'proofs', and you know it all too well.
>

ROFL. What archives? The one's in the Albert Pike Memorial Library
perhaps. ROFL. As far as I know they are open to public perusal just
like the library at my Grand Lodge.

>Why is your 'brotherhood' is so secretive?
>What kind of agenda do you pursue?
>

None at all. ... No ... that's not quite right. We exist to take good
men and make them better men.

>>>although I've been emphatic
>>>about my lack of hate for any race, creed, or color - mere possession of
>>>Hoffman's book is apparently enough to be considered a holocaust denying
>>>Neo-Nazi white supremacist, and with that logic since I own a copy of
>>>Aesop's Fables maybe I should also be considered a Greek poet as well, or
>>>at least a Greek poet sympathizer. Hoffman's "Judaism's Strange Gods"
>>>contains specific quotes pertaining to the anti-Christian nature of the
>>>Babylonian Talmud and Kabbalah, and goes into a great bit of meticulously
>>>documented detail about the origins of the oral traditions of the Pharisees
>>>and Saducees, traditions of which Jesus Christ spoke out against on
>>>multiple occasions.
>>
>>None of which has anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.
>
>Yes, it does.
>
>Enough.
>

How do you know? You have never been a Freemason. Perhaps you should
do some research into some individual freemasons. Freemasonry, as an
organisation, is fragmented into hundreds of sovereign Grand Lodges.
Some of them recognise each other and allow their individual members
to inter visit, others don't. How those, who can't even agree to allow
visits to other lodges around the world, can be expected to unite
under some SECRET AGENDA is rather beyond my simple understanding.

KIV11

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 9:21:44 AM10/13/03
to
Greg Perry wrote:

>
>End of alt.freemasonry for me, adios.

Wanna bet?

George K.

Malcolm Tucker

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 10:00:41 AM10/13/03
to

"bryan" <ntlhel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message>

> hi malcolm
>
> i still have a bunch of rand left over from my visit to durban...
> would your lodge like a donation?
>
> regards
>
> bryan

Hi Bryan ,
What a question!

Could you e-mail me ? I lost your address that works in my last crash
which destroyed my address book.

regards
Malcolm

mtu...@mweb.co.za


bryan

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 11:28:24 AM10/13/03
to
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:00:41 +0200, "Malcolm Tucker" <mtucker at mweb

dot co dot za> wrote:

>
>"bryan" <ntlhel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message>
>> hi malcolm
>>
>> i still have a bunch of rand left over from my visit to durban...
>> would your lodge like a donation?
>>
>> regards
>>
>> bryan
>
>Hi Bryan ,
>What a question!
>
>Could you e-mail me ? I lost your address that works in my last crash
>which destroyed my address book.

certainly!

Joe Steve Swick III

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 11:46:11 AM10/13/03
to
___Greg Perry___

End of alt.freemasonry for me, adios.

___George K___
Wanna bet?
-----

I think he was surprised at the thorough beating he took here, George. We
can hope it might be a while before he comes back to post more nonsense.

JSW


KIV11

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 1:37:08 PM10/13/03
to
Joe wrote:

>
>I think he was surprised at the thorough beating he took here, George. We
>can hope it might be a while before he comes back to post more nonsense.

He'll be back quicker then you think, using a new name, etc.

George K.

nukleus

unread,
Oct 13, 2003, 3:17:01 PM10/13/03
to
In article <q5vjov8kq7fom24i7...@4ax.com>,
br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:20:49 +0000 (UTC), jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca (Jim
>Bennie) interestingly poked out:

First of all, before we even start,
it is but self evident that freemasonry
is indeed rooted in occult and Kabbalah.

There is nothing much to even argue about.
Freemasons can not possibly deny their obscession
with symbology. The very term 'craft' is evidence of it.

Now, outside of mainstream religions, such as
Christianity, symbology is used where?
Well, in occult, and occult, in turn,
is merely a derivation of Kabbalah for one thing.

Madam Blavatskaya and Aleister Crowley contributed
to the modern version of this cult in the most
profound degree.

Blavatskaya and her extensive studies of
Egypt, India and Tibet is probably one of the most
prominent figures in history of occult.

Most of these masonic disinformation peddlers here
are likely to claim that neither Blavatskaya nor
Crowley are genuine masons. Sure, some of the
publically available information is simply mind
bogglingly revealing the very nature of it all.
So, they 'blew the cover' from this whole thing,
rooted in worshipping of the most profound evil
there ever was in the entire history of mankind.

Furthermore, many of known symbols in freemasonry
that are publically available are clearly occult
and Kabbalistic symbols.

Furthermore, as symbology is about the PRIME
obscession of this evil cult, its major purpose is...

Learning the mastership of manipulation of matter
thus gaining 'power' over all existence
as far as material aspect goes,
and not only purely material,
but quite beyond it indeed.

That is what this 'craft' thing,
practiced deep into the night
with all these occult rituals, is.

It is a cult of 'power', zeal and viciousness.
Merely looking at the minds of all these
'freemasons' here on alt.freemasonry,
their sick, manipulative and evil minds
are open like an open book.

In the archives of this very group, there is a tremendous
amount of evidence of their utterly sick and vicious minds,
of their lies, fabrications and deceit.

It is ALL OVER the place.
Nearly every word they say
and every step they make
is simply a living evidence of it all.

It is hard to imagine any place on usenet,
on any forum around, where concentration
of pathological liars, doing nothing more
then deceiving people as it is here, is as high as it is here.

>>While huge, gaping holes have been left behind when asked simple
>>questions like "please quote from the Masonic ceremonies where this
>>is mentioned."

First, you publish those ceremonies and rituals
for all to see. Then we'll see what this is all
about.

Secondly, what kind of 'ceremonies' are there in
a 'brotherhood'?
If you are not a religion, then what are those
'ceremonies' all about?

Then, once you are at it, open up the meaning and
nature of your 'craft' thing.

If you are but a cheritable organization as you claim,
then why do you need this woodoo 'craft' thing?

If you are merely a 'brotherhood' [of death],
as you claim, then what do you need 'craft' for?

If you are but a club, as you claim some other times,
then what do you need that 'craft' thing for?

What DO you 'craft' if you are merely pseudo-brothers.

What IS the nature of your 'brotherhood'
and what are you all doing there on the first place?
For what?

What UNITES you all?
What principles?
What foundation consisting of what?
Do you have ANY foundation of belief system?
What IS it?

Why do you need to create all these 'laws'
if you are some innocent 'charitable' organization?
For what?

You need 'laws' to love and respect one another?
You think you can feel brotherhood because of
some idiotic 'law', written in a dead book?

Then your heart is dead, you idiots.
If you need 'laws' to make you love one another,
then you are doomed. Doomed to oblivion.

"Blind following the blind
will [INEVITABLY] fall into a ditch".
-- Jesus Christ

Why do you need to maintain utmost secrecy
and use all these passwords, symbols and all other
tricks of secrecy to recognize one another
as though you were some kind of a clandestine operation
with hidden agenda of creating the most
profound evil, just like CIA?

Why?

Why don't you publish it all
if you are love and light seeking bunch
of fellars?

Why?

Well, I tell you why.

Because your intents are evil.
As evil as it gets.
That is why your agenda is hidden
as you cover behind the covers of darkness.

And you are pathological liars.
Pathological.

You are maintaining this secrecy according to
the design of your clandestine cult of evil worshippers,
designed and formulated by the people like
Adam Weishaupt and Albert Pike, a convicted criminal.

Here is a quote by the founder of Illuminati
secret society Adam Weishaupt:

Spartacus (Weishaupt) to Cato (Zwack, A Lawyer)

"Nothing would be more profitable to us than a
right history of mankind. Despotism has robbed
them of their liberty. How can the weak obtain
protection? Only by union; but this is rare.

Nothing can bring this about but hidden societies.
Hidden schools of wisdom are the means which will
one day free men from their bonds.
These have in all ages been the archives of nature,
and the rights of men; and by them shall human nature
be raised from her fallen state.

[Thus this symbol of phoenix,
the bird arising from the ashes,
represented by the number 13.]

Princes and nations shall vanish from the earth.
The human race will then become one family,
and the world will be the dwelling of Rational Men."

Anotherwords, the New World Order.

>>Instead, such went simply unanswered and the same irrelevant nonsense
>>was robotically posted over and over.

Good.

It needs to be posted over and over and over
and over and over
and over.

Here, you worshippers of the most profound evil:

"We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists,
and we shall provoke a formidable
social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the
effects of absolute atheism, origin
of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.

Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend
themselves against the world minority of
revolutionaries, will exterminate those
destroyers of civilization, and the multitude,
disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic
spirits will be from that moment without compass,
anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where
to render its adoration, will receive the pure
doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the
public view, a manifestation which will result
from the general reactionary movement which will
follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism,
both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
Letter 15 August 1871
Addressed to Grand Master Guiseppie Mazzini 33°
Archives British Museum
London, England

You see, not just some jack ass mason like all of you here,
but ILLUSTRIOUS one, you slime.

Want some more?
Heard of KKK?

Here:

"I took my obligations from white men,
not from negroes. When I have to accept
negroes as brothers or leave masonry,
I shall leave it"

- Albert Pike 33rd*

Delmar D. Darrah
History and Evolution of Freemasonry 1954, page 329.
The Charles T Powner Co.

>So much for "research".

Yep.
Want some more?

"General Albert Pike, who stood high in the
Masonic order, was the chief judicial officer
of the Klan." [KKK]

As owner-publisher of the Memphis, Tennessee,
Daily Appeal, Albert Pike wrote in an editorial
on April 16, 1868:

"With negroes for witnesses and jurors, the
administration of justice becomes a blasphemous
mockery.
..
We would unite every white man in the South,
who is opposed to negro suffrage, into one
great Order of Southern Brotherhood, with an
organization complete, active, vigorous,
in which a few should execute the concentrated
will of all, and whose very existence should be
concealed from all but its members."

Pike became a Convicted War Criminal in a
War Crimes Trial held after the Civil Wars end.
He had fled to British Territory in Canada.
Pike only returned to the U.S. after
his hand picked Scottish Rite Succsessor
James Richardon 33° got a pardon for him after,
making President Jackson a 33° Scottish Mason
in a ceremony held inside the White House itself!

Mind, you, inside the White House itself!
Looks like some WEALLY minor freemason,
to whom the entire library was dedicated
and not in some land of obscurity,
but in "mother of all mothers", the 'supreme'
lodge in Washington, DC.

Get it, perverts?

You wish to have zome 'light'?

Not a problem at all.
Just make sure you can take it.

>Typical, actually.

You forgot to say lick, lick.

What are you licking each others ass for?

Are you trying to make it look like some kind
of 'objective' argument?

Well...

What to do. Such is karma marma dharma.
Ever heard?

>>Even more remarkable, Gene, was the comment about "mortals". It doesn't
>>make much sense to dismiss opinions made by "mortals" and then prattle
>>on with "direct quotes" from Al Pike as if they're authoritative.

>Maybe he belongs to one of those cults that believe they are immortal?

Or maybe you are twisting it all way beyond the level of obscene?
Could THAT be that case?

>>I notice the failure to use the term "Christian" next to Pike's name
>>above. Using the Perry illogic, if Pike was a Christian and a Kabbalist,
>>then all Christians (including Mr. Perry) are Kabbalists.

Nope pervert. That does not follow.

>Well, he DOES refer quite a bit to Kabbalah. It makes sense.

>>Mr. Perry's bee-in-a-bonnet seems to involve only ancillery
>>organisations, as if they're Freemasonry itself. Constant talk about
>>the Royal Arch degree and the 28th and 33rd degrees. Does *any*
>>Scottish Rite valley actually confer Pike's version of the 28th?

You, idiots, do not even realize that you obfuscated yourselves
into oblivion.

According to your monkey logic, there is no such a thing
as freemasonry. Do you realize this?

Well, because what IS freemasonry?

This 'lodge' does not recognize that 'lodge'.
This 'jurisdiction' [you sick, criminally minded perverts]
does not recognize THAT 'jurisdiction'.

Blue lodge does not recognize green lodge.
And that state does not recognize that state.
Freemasons in one country do not recognize
their own 'brothers' in another country
and on and on and on.

You mean brother is not brother
if he lives in some other country than yours?

Are you totally sick?
Totally poisoned in your rotten minds
with all these lies and deceit you accumulated
throughout the centuries?

Zo...

What IS freemasonry?
Which fraction of your clandestine cult
does represent it?

Who should be trusted to make such a determination?

What is the most integral part that labels your all,
perverts, as freemasons?

Is there such a thing?

Well, don't strain yourself too much.

There is NO such a thing.
And by design, mind you.
Just to give you a convinient set of excuses
to excuse just about anything and anywhere.

Yes, ALL of you here claim you are freemasons.
But NONE of you can be taken as a representative
to make some conclusion as of to the very nature
of freemasonry.

Because of your sophistication in perverting the facts,
lying, fabricating, you are likely to claim
"Well, that was just an individual opinion of one person.
It does not necessarily represents freemasonry as such,
and even if it does, it does not represent MY version
of freemasonry. He is just from a different 'jurisdiction'"