Ordo Templi Orientis
jasid
What is the Ordo Templi Orientis?
My understanding is that the OTO is the terrorist faction of
the Freemasons. This is, in fact, their "Murder Incorporated".
The OTO has been staffed by such luminaries as:
Aleister Crowley, L.Ron Hubbard, and other "philanthropic
minded individuals" of the past.
Do some research on the Ordo Templi Orientis and its
connection to feeble-minded "pagan groups". Is the OTO
merely another front group of our delightful Freemason
friends --in the case of the OTO not hesitating to
resort to torture, murder, and child abuse? If you fall
afoul of these humanitarian Freemasons, keep looking over
your shoulder for their "hit squad": the Ordo Templi Orientis.
Freemason
WTF???
>My understanding is that the OTO is the terrorist faction of
>the Freemasons. This is, in fact, their "Murder Incorporated".
Your basis?
>The OTO has been staffed by such luminaries as:
>Aleister Crowley, L.Ron Hubbard, and other "philanthropic
>minded individuals" of the past.
I knew about Crowley, but Hubbard was a sci-fi hack writer. IMHBCO, most of
his sci-fi work seems to be of the teen-age jerk-off variety.
>Do some research on the Ordo Templi Orientis and its
>connection to feeble-minded "pagan groups".
<SNIP>
Maybe you should try some research yourself - quit taking "NWO" as the New
Gospel.
Better yet, get your medication prescription updated (or dosage increased -
take your pick).
BTW, I am not afraid to sign my posts, Coward.
Randy Spradling
The Freemason
"To know oneself is the ultimate form of aggression."
MasonTruth
>Subject: Ordo Templi Orientis
>From: jasid <ja...@adaris.ici.net>
>Date: 10/4/98 6:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <36181E...@adaris.ici.net>
>
>A question to OPEN MINDED Masons and skeptics:
Dear Sir,
What planet did you land here from? Do they have Masons up there?
Did you stop taking medication?
Where do you guys get so much garbage to post? Have you ever considered doing
something worthwhile with your life? Why not volunteer at the Masonic Home and
work with the elderly or the Masonic Orphanage and work with kids..They need
help always at Shriner Hospitals, why not volunteer there.?
Find out about Freemasonry first before you post such garbage..
Sincerely
MasonTruth
Bro. Manny Blanco
Moreno Valley Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, CA
MasonTruth
>Subject: Re: Ordo Templi Orientis
>From: free...@aol.com (Freemason)
>Date: 10/4/98 7:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <19981004225845...@ng86.aol.com>
>
>
>WTF??? means:
Who's the fool?
Well you are right there.. This guy is off his rocker... What a nut job!
Sincerely & Fraternally
Bill Heidrick
jasid <ja...@adaris.ici.net> wrote:
>A question to OPEN MINDED Masons and skeptics:
>What is the Ordo Templi Orientis?
A 501 (c) 3 tax exempt religious group, founded at the turn of the
19th to 20th century. Although OTO borrows many of its traditions
from Masonry, it is not masonry and has not claimed to make or raise
masons since 1920.
>My understanding is that the OTO is the terrorist faction of
>the Freemasons. This is, in fact, their "Murder Incorporated".
You understand wrongly. OTO does not engage in political activity, is
not a faction of any kind in regard to masonry, and does not commit or
countenance criminal activity.
>The OTO has been staffed by such luminaries as:
>Aleister Crowley, L.Ron Hubbard, and other "philanthropic
>minded individuals" of the past.
Crowley led OTO from 1923 until his death in 1947. Hubbard was never
a member of OTO
>Do some research on the Ordo Templi Orientis and its
>connection to feeble-minded "pagan groups".
Try some research yourself. In particular, you might like to look
into the litigative history of sources you may be relying upon -- in
the area of settlements of libel suits brought by OTO. against
publishers and authors of such drivel during the last 20 years.
As to "feeble-minded pagan groups", are you an agnostic or an
athiest? Such a remark does not appear likely to come from a person
of religious orientation. There's nothing wrong with being agnostic
or athiest, but an overly limited and hostile mind may find all
religious expression feeble-minded.
>Is the OTO
>merely another front group of our delightful Freemason
>friends
No.
> --in the case of the OTO not hesitating to
>resort to torture, murder, and child abuse?
OTO does not do or countenance such conduct. In simple fact, OTO has
brought child abuse to the attention of the authorities in the few
instances when evidence was found.
>If you fall
>afoul of these humanitarian Freemasons, keep looking over
>your shoulder for their "hit squad": the Ordo Templi Orientis.
Nuts.
93 93/93
Bill Heidrick
Treasuer General
Ordo Templi Orienis
Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
Germany in the later decades of the 19th century. IIRC it has eleven
degrees, the titles of some of which correspond with those of Royal Arch
Masonry ... e.g. Prince of Jerusalem ..
The senior officer is designated Outer Head of the Order (OHO) and at
the time of the public emergence of the OTO the incumbent was Theodor
Reuss.
Aleister Crowley was a successor in that role and reshaped the OTO
significantly, bequeathing it IMHO a centralised constitution which
seems to have had the effect of institutionalising schism and
factionalism within the organisation, to the extent that there were in
the 1980s a number of OTOs claiming to be the legitimate heirs to
Crowley's spiritual legacy and (outside the UK at least) his residual
copyrights. Within the UK these resided in the Crown as he was an
undischarged bankrupt when he died on 1st Dec 1947. The issue of the
copyrights in the US was settled by the secular courts in favour of the
"Caliphate OTO"; they have a website -- http://otohq.org/otohq.html
AFAIAA, aside from a tradition of the OTO having developed as a
non-gender-exclusive branch of Grand Orient Masonry, the only formal
link between the Masons and the OTO resides in a charter said to have
been granted to a Bro/Fra Yarker who was a member of both the OTO and
the Masons in the early decades of this century. My understanding is
that under the terms of this charter there was some reciprocal
recognition of degrees between the Masons and the OTO. I heard that some
research had been carried out in the library in Gt Queen St into this
document, but that the results had been inconclusive.
By authority of a similarly cloudy tradition, the senior officer of the
OTO in "Hibernia, Iona et Omnia Britannorum" is accorded the style of an
honorary Bishop of the Church of England, though this is not understood
to include entitlement to a seat in the House of Lords.
For anyone interested, there is a comprehensive body of material
published in the book "Secret Rituals of the OTO" by Francis King. This
is probably out of print, but copies turn up on the 2nd hand market from
time to time.
The OTO are many things, some good, some bad, but they are emphatically
NOT the "terrorist faction of the Freemasons". Whoever gave you that
impression was leading you towards cloud-cuckoo-land!!
Visita Interioram Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem
--
jasid wrote:
> A question to OPEN MINDED Masons and skeptics:
>
> What is the Ordo Templi Orientis?
>
> My understanding is that the OTO is the terrorist faction of
> the Freemasons. This is, in fact, their "Murder Incorporated".
>
> The OTO has been staffed by such luminaries as:
> Aleister Crowley, L.Ron Hubbard, and other "philanthropic
> minded individuals" of the past.
>
> Do some research on the Ordo Templi Orientis and its
> connection to feeble-minded "pagan groups". Is the OTO
> merely another front group of our delightful Freemason
> friends --in the case of the OTO not hesitating to
> resort to torture, murder, and child abuse? If you fall
CHarris141
Clarification... The Royal Arch degrees do not have a degree called Prince of
Jerusalem. That is a Scottish Rite degree (16)
Chris Harris
McDonald Lodge # 324 AF & AM (Junior Warden)
Independence, Missouri
York Rite, York Rite College, 32nd AASR (SJ), Order of True Kindred (second
degree)
Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
I have seen the "Prince of Jerusalem" listed as Degree 16 in a hierarchy of 33,
of which the first 3 are the degrees of Craft Masonry. The higher degrees seem
variously described as "Royal Arch" and "Scottish Rite" and I had assumed that
these were the same. Perhaps this is the case in some jurisdictions??
Visita Interioram Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem
CHarris141
Setup of Masonic Degrees & Appendant Bodies
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ATTENTION!!!!
Freemasonry is set up somewhat differently in different parts of the world.
Below is a list of the degrees in the jurisdiction of Missouri. The base of
everything is the Blue or Craft Lodge. Then you have the option of taking one
or both of the "Rites." Neither one of them makes you more of a Master Mason
but it sheds additional light about Freemasonry. Each degree is listed below
the governing body that controls it.
BLUE (CRAFT) LODGE:
Entered Apprentice; Fellow Craft; Master Mason
"THE YORK RITE OF FREEMASONRY"
CHAPTER OF ROYAL ARCH MASONS
Mark Master, Past Master (Virtual/Installed), Most Excellent Master, Holy Royal
Arch
COUNCIL OF ROYAL & SELECT MASTERS
Royal Master, Select Master, Super-Excellent Master
COMMANDERY OF KNIGHTS TEMPLAR
Illustrious Order of the Red Cross, Order of Malta, Order of the Temple
HONORARY YORK RITE ORGANIZATIONS
- Allied Masonic Degrees of the USA
- Holy Royal Arch Knight Templar Priests
- Knight Masons of the USA
- Knights of the York Cross of Honour (KYCH)
- Masonic Societas Rosicruciana In Civitatibus Foederatis
(Rosicrucian Society of the United States)
- Red Cross of Constantine
- York Rite Sovereign College of North America
====================================
THE ANCIENT & ACCEPTED SCOTTISH RITE OF FREEMASONRY
(Southern Jurisdiction)
LODGE OF PERFECTION
Secret Master, Perfect Master, Confidential Secretary, Provost & Judge;
Intendant of the Building; Elu of the Nine, Elu of the Fifteen; Elu of the
Twelve; Master Architecht; Royal Arch of Solomon; Perfect Elu.
CHAPTER OF ROSE CROIX
Knight of the East, Knight of Jerusalem; Knight of the East & West; Knight Rose
Croix
COUNCIL OF KADOSH
Grand Pontiff; Master of the Symbolic Lodge; Noachite; Knight of the Royal Ax;
Chief of the Tabernacle; Knight of the Brazen Serpent; Prince of Mercy; Knight
Commander of the Temple; Knight of the Sun; Scottish Knight of St. Andrew;
Knights Kadosh
CONSISTORY
Insepector Inquisitor; Master of the Royal Secret.
Honorary Scottish Rite Organizations
Royal Order of Scotland
====================================
ADOPTIVE MASONRY
(groups that have a Masonic requirement but are for both women & men)
- Order of Amaranth
- Order of True Kindred
- Order of Eastern Star
- White Shrine of Jerusalem
- Ladies Oriental Shrine, Inc.
- Daughters of the Nile
- Social Order of the Beauceant (for the wives of Knights Templar - women only)
====================================
OTHER MEN'S GROUPS
- Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the Mystic Shrine (the Shriners)
- Mystic Order Veiled Prophets of the Enchanted Realm (the Grotto)
- Tall Ceadars of Lebanon
- National Sojourners
====================================
YOUTH GROUPS
- DeMolay International (boys)
- International Order of Jobs Daughters (girls)
- Rainbow Girls (girls)
====================================
Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
The following is a synopsis of the Degrees of the OTO as presented in the History
section of their website:
O
Minerval
I
M.
II
M..
III
M
PM
IV
Companion of the Holy Royal Arch of Enoch.
Prince of Jerusalem.
Knight of the East and of the West.
V
Sovereign Prince of Rose Croix. (Knight of the Pelican and Eagle.)
Member of the Senate of Knight Hermetic Philosophers Knights of the Red
Eagle.
VI
Illustrious Knight (Templar) of the Order of Kadosch, and Companion of the
Holy Graal.
Grand Inquisitor Commander, Member of the Grand Tribunal.
Prince of the Royal Secret.
VII
Very Illustrious Sovereign Grand Inspector General.
Member of the Supreme Grand Council.
VIII
Perfect Pontiff of the Illuminati.
IX
Initiate of the Sanctuary of the Gnosis.
X
Rex Summus Sanctissimus (Supreme and Most Holy King).
Again, styles and titles do seem to vary between different jurisdictions and
flavours of the Order. The suggestion seems to be that the degrees I, II, and III
equate with Craft Masonic degrees, but IIRC titles borrowed from the Order of the
Golden Dawn have been used in some OTO lodges and oases for degrees above Minerval:
Zelator; Theoricus; Practicus; Philosophicus;
In the Golden Dawn these were viewed as having elemental attributions and were/are
subordiate to Adept and Magister grades; the numbering scheme was not necessarily
rigid. This cross-fertilisation in some OTO traditions may have originated with
Crowley, who was certainly a Fra of the Golden Dawn for a while, though quite
possibly not a Bro within any conventional Masonic tradition.
Bill Heidrick
"Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L." <sfd.n...@workline.com> wrote:
>The OTO is an occult order which emerged into public view, I think, in
>Germany in the later decades of the 19th century.
Founded, not emerged, by Karl Kellner around 1896-8 as a divergent
branch of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor. Reuss named it Ordo
Templi Orientis about 1906
> IIRC it has eleven
>degrees, the titles of some of which correspond with those of Royal Arch
>Masonry ... e.g. Prince of Jerusalem ..
13 numbered degrees (including Minerval as zero), plus several
intermediate degrees of which Prince(ess) of Jerusalem is one of the
intermediate.
>Aleister Crowley was a successor in that role and reshaped the OTO
>significantly, bequeathing it IMHO a centralised constitution
The main constitutional work was undertaken in the Reuss years.
Crowley had a local constitution under that for the English speaking
branch, but other than some studies and abstracts Crowley did not
substantially alter the Reuss 1906 and 1917 constitutions. The
present constitution is more active, in the form of corporate Articles
and Bylaws.
> which
>seems to have had the effect of institutionalising schism and
>factionalism within the organisation, to the extent that there were in
>the 1980s a number of OTOs claiming to be the legitimate heirs to
>Crowley's spiritual legacy and (outside the UK at least) his residual
>copyrights.
That's pretty complicated, far more so that would be of likely
interest here. In essence there is one OTO and several imitations.
>Within the UK these resided in the Crown as he was an
>undischarged bankrupt when he died on 1st Dec 1947.
That matter was cleared up in regard to the copyrights in bankruptsy
for the UK in recent years.
>AFAIAA, aside from a tradition of the OTO having developed as a
>non-gender-exclusive branch of Grand Orient Masonry,
Not related to Grand Orient Masonry. Kellner and Reuss thought OTO
had a claim to United Grand Lodge of England craft regularity and to
authority to operate the pendant AASR. Kellner died before this was
settled. Reuss applied for recognition and was disabused of this
view. At that point, OTO ceased to claim to make or raise Masons --
the application was in 1917 and the cessation of the claim was made
complete in 1919.
>the only formal
>link between the Masons and the OTO resides in a charter said to have
>been granted to a Bro/Fra Yarker who was a member of both the OTO and
>the Masons in the early decades of this century.
John Yarker did charter OTO under Reuss to work Memphas and Mizraim.
Yarker also separately and individually chartered Crowley. Yarker was
never an OTO member. OTO does not work M & M degrees at this time.
> My understanding is
>that under the terms of this charter there was some reciprocal
>recognition of degrees between the Masons and the OTO.
Not relevant to the Yarker M & M chartering. OTO had a policy of
accepting AASR degree ranks as equivalent on application to certain
OTO degree ranks. Thus AASR members could enter OTO without separate
initiation on applying and paying a fee. The last schedule of such
reciprocal fees was set up in type for printing in 1919, for Volume
III, No. 1 of Crowley's Equinox. At that time the AASR claim of Reuss
fell through and the page was canceled out, not published.
>By authority of a similarly cloudy tradition, the senior officer of the
>OTO in "Hibernia, Iona et Omnia Britannorum" is accorded the style of an
>honorary Bishop of the Church of England, though this is not understood
>to include entitlement to a seat in the House of Lords.
No. This isn't the case. Separately, through Ger.Encausse, OTO has
integrated within it the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, a religious line
claiming episcopal consecration in convergence from Doinel and from
the sczim of Utrecht. The latter gives a claim to apostolic
succession in the sense of Episcopi Vgrantis. It means little or
nothing in the established Church of England. OTO VIIth degree
includes, as one of three stages within the options of the degree,
consecration as an EGC bishop.
Needless to say, there's one particular landmark of Masonry definitely
not maintained in OTO. Freemasonry is not a religion. OTO is a
church.
>For anyone interested, there is a comprehensive body of material
>published in the book "Secret Rituals of the OTO" by Francis King. This
>is probably out of print, but copies turn up on the 2nd hand market from
>time to time.
The rituals there are close but not exact. King's included theories
are often wildly inaccurate.
>The OTO are many things, some good, some bad, but they are emphatically
>NOT the "terrorist faction of the Freemasons". Whoever gave you that
>impression was leading you towards cloud-cuckoo-land!!
Here we are agreed. :-)
93 93/93
Bill Heidrick
Bill Heidrick
"Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L." <sfd.n...@workline.com> wrote:
>The detail of your response appreciated ...
>The following is a synopsis of the Degrees of the OTO as presented in the History
>section of their website:
> O
> Minerval
> I
...
> IX
> Initiate of the Sanctuary of the Gnosis.
> X
> Rex Summus Sanctissimus (Supreme and Most Holy King).
To which we add XIth -- outside the regular structure of OTO -- and
XIIth, an alternate designation for the OHO of OTO, aka Frater
Superior.
>Again, styles and titles do seem to vary between different jurisdictions and
>flavours of the Order. The suggestion seems to be that the degrees I, II, and III
>equate with Craft Masonic degrees, but IIRC titles borrowed from the Order of the
>Golden Dawn have been used in some OTO lodges and oases for degrees above Minerval:
>Zelator; Theoricus; Practicus; Philosophicus;
I've never seen that, except in one pre-Reuss ritual which used some
G.'.D.'. related titles probably gleaned from SRIA, not those
particular four. However, those four grade titles are used in
A.'.A.'., Crowley's reconstruction of the G.'.D.'. and an organization
utterly unrelated to OTO and separate from OTO.
93 93/93
Bill Heidrick
Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
Bill Heidrick wrote:
> 93,
>
> "Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L." <sfd.n...@workline.com> wrote:
> >The OTO is an occult order which emerged into public view, I think, in
> >Germany in the later decades of the 19th century.
>
> Founded, not emerged, by Karl Kellner around 1896-8 as a divergent
> branch of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor. Reuss named it Ordo
> Templi Orientis about 1906
>
>
It's always a privelege to be corrected in matters of historical fact by
someone with access to primary sources. Thank you Sir!!
> > IIRC it has eleven
> >degrees, the titles of some of which correspond with those of Royal Arch
> >Masonry ... e.g. Prince of Jerusalem ..
>
> 13 numbered degrees (including Minerval as zero), plus several
> intermediate degrees of which Prince(ess) of Jerusalem is one of the
> intermediate.
>
> >Aleister Crowley was a successor in that role and reshaped the OTO
> >significantly, bequeathing it IMHO a centralised constitution
>
> The main constitutional work was undertaken in the Reuss years.
> Crowley had a local constitution under that for the English speaking
> branch, but other than some studies and abstracts Crowley did not
> substantially alter the Reuss 1906 and 1917 constitutions. The
> present constitution is more active, in the form of corporate Articles
> and Bylaws.
>
> > which
> >seems to have had the effect of institutionalising schism and
> >factionalism within the organisation, to the extent that there were in
> >the 1980s a number of OTOs claiming to be the legitimate heirs to
> >Crowley's spiritual legacy and (outside the UK at least) his residual
> >copyrights.
>
> That's pretty complicated, far more so that would be of likely
> interest here. In essence there is one OTO and several imitations.
>
I tend towards an anti-hierarchical position philosophically. For some more
general views check out http://www.sonic.net/fenwick/chaos/crisis.html (not
my site!!)
> >Within the UK these resided in the Crown as he was an
> >undischarged bankrupt when he died on 1st Dec 1947.
>
> That matter was cleared up in regard to the copyrights in bankruptsy
> for the UK in recent years.
>
>
A technicality now since a 50 yr limitation applies in UK at least.
> >AFAIAA, aside from a tradition of the OTO having developed as a
> >non-gender-exclusive branch of Grand Orient Masonry,
>
> Not related to Grand Orient Masonry. Kellner and Reuss thought OTO
> had a claim to United Grand Lodge of England craft regularity and to
> authority to operate the pendant AASR. Kellner died before this was
> settled. Reuss applied for recognition and was disabused of this
> view. At that point, OTO ceased to claim to make or raise Masons --
> the application was in 1917 and the cessation of the claim was made
> complete in 1919.
>
>
There was certainly at least one occult body in London in the late 1960s
claiming formal authority from Crowley which was making Masons. It's
membership included the late blues musician Graham Bond. I thought it was the
OTO, perhaps not.
Then again, there was at least one individual in London in the mid 1970s
claiming to be Aleister Crowley's physical offspring with supposed formal
authority to confer all sorts of honoraria and degrees - pretty well anything
listed in the "Yes" telegram to Waite published in Gems From the Equinox,
IIRC. I did note recently though that that particular individual, or another
sporting the same unconventional forename, was cited as authoritative support
for supposed (or fantasised) activities at a research facility in Montauk,
Long Island. There are webpages, try keying "Crowley" and "Montauk" into a
few search engines. Here's an e.g.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/2987/montauk.htm
This clarifies the context of a bizarre alehouse discussion which followed
one of the "Rites of Eleusis" commemorative revival performances in London in
1990. Someone commented on the clerically sartorial style of the senior
officer of the OTO in the jurisdiction, someone else recalled that a
predecessor in the post had looked on occasions indistinguishable from a
'central casting' Bishop. My reference above was a recollection drawn from
the subsequent conversation.
Dr. Roger M. Firestone
Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L. <sfd.n...@workline.com> wrote:
>My thanks for your clarification.
>
>I have seen the "Prince of Jerusalem" listed as Degree 16 in a hierarchy of 33,
>of which the first 3 are the degrees of Craft Masonry. The higher degrees seem
>variously described as "Royal Arch" and "Scottish Rite" and I had assumed that
>these were the same. Perhaps this is the case in some jurisdictions??
There are two main branches of Freemasonry beyond the three degrees of
Ancient Craft or Symbolic Masonry: the York Rite and the Ancient and
Accepted Scottish Rite (AASR). The AASR consists of an additional 29
degrees plus an honorary (33rd) degree, conferred in four closely
co-ordinated bodies; in the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States,
these bodies are the Lodge of Perfection (4-14), the Chapter of Rose
Croix (15-18), the Council of Kadosh (19-30), and the Consistory
(31-32), while in the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction (US), the bodies are
the Lodge of Perfection (4-14), the Council of Princes of Jerusalem
(15-16), the Chapter of Rose Croix (17-18), and the Consistory (19-32).
The 33rd degree is conferred in a Supreme Council.
The York Rite consists of three primary bodies and many smaller groups.
The primary bodies are the Chapter of Royal Arch Masons, the Council of
Cryptic Masons (or Royal and Select Masters), and the Commandery of
Knights Templar. The degrees in these bodies are not normally referred
to by numbers, as there are fewer of them. There are four degrees in
the Chapter (fewer in Pennsylvania, more in W. Virginia and Virginia),
four in the Council (only two required for membership in most states,
with a third optional, and the fourth conferred only on past presiding
officers), and three _orders_ (not degrees) in the Commandery.
There are similarities between some of the AASR degrees and those of the
York Rite; this is natural, because they are based on the same legends
from Craft Masonry and on the same Biblical (e.g., the building
of the Second Temple) or historical (e.g., the martyrdom of Jacques
DeMolay) material. For example, there is a "Royal Arch of Solomon or of
Enoch" degree in the AASR (#13), but it is not the same as the Royal
Arch degree in the Chapter of the York Rite, although there are common
elements.
But it is not true that the Scottish Rite and Royal Arch are the same
anywhere.
Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH
Grand Master of Cryptic Masons in the District of Columbia
Bill Heidrick
"Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L." <sfd.n...@workline.com> wrote:
>> >Within the UK these resided in the Crown as he was an
>> >undischarged bankrupt when he died on 1st Dec 1947.
>>
>> That matter was cleared up in regard to the copyrights in bankruptsy
>> for the UK in recent years.
>>
>>
>A technicality now since a 50 yr limitation applies in UK at least.
Nope. The bankruptsy resolution regarding the copyrights and the
period of Crown holding results in a considerably longer period in
itself under British Law. In addition the Bern convention has also
extended the copyright period. The effected copyrights are now good
in the UK well into the 21st century.
>There was certainly at least one occult body in London in the late 1960s
>claiming formal authority from Crowley which was making Masons. It's
>membership included the late blues musician Graham Bond. I thought it was the
>OTO, perhaps not.
Not OTO. OTO made no Minervals from about the mid 1950's until the
later 1960's -- owing Germer's period of relative dormancy. Germer,
Crowley's immediate successor as OHO of OTO, also closed Grant's camp
and expelled Grant in 1995 e.v.; writing to Noel Fitzgerald, a IXth
degree in England at that time, that there was noone chartered in
England to operate a camp or conduct initiations.
Most of the pretenders arose during that period; Grant during the
remainder of the 50's and others after Germer's death in 1962.
>Then again, there was at least one individual in London in the mid 1970s
>claiming to be Aleister Crowley's physical offspring with supposed formal
>authority to confer all sorts of honoraria and degrees - pretty well anything
>listed in the "Yes" telegram to Waite published in Gems From the Equinox,
That's probably "Amado Crowley", although there was another fellow in
England who published a number of short writings and claimed to be in
OTO without benefit of OTO ever having heard of him. Amado is not
related to Aleister Crowley. Crowley's only son surviving at that
time is named Aleister Attaturk MacAlpine, and he has not made
attempts to pretend to OTO as far as I know. AAMacA is presently
living in Wales, last I heard.
>IIRC. I did note recently though that that particular individual, or another
>sporting the same unconventional forename, was cited as authoritative support
>for supposed (or fantasised) activities at a research facility in Montauk,
>Long Island. There are webpages, try keying "Crowley" and "Montauk" into a
>few search engines. Here's an e.g.
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/2987/montauk.htm
That would be "Amado". It doesn't say much for the authors of the
"Montauk" stuff that one of them was blissfully crediting Amado's
story and looking for him to get the inside story on Crowley earlier
this year. :-)
>This clarifies the context of a bizarre alehouse discussion which followed
>one of the "Rites of Eleusis" commemorative revival performances in London in
>1990. Someone commented on the clerically sartorial style of the senior
>officer of the OTO in the jurisdiction, someone else recalled that a
>predecessor in the post had looked on occasions indistinguishable from a
>'central casting' Bishop. My reference above was a recollection drawn from
>the subsequent conversation.
OTO/EGC bishops have a certain flair on occasions. One of 'em dressed
in Greek Orthodox fashion and broke a 30 year vegetarian fast at a
base ball game in southern California a some years ago, with a hot
dog. Photos were duly taken and published in OYEZ, the local lodge
periodical. I think he's been vegetarian since, possibly out of quasi
formal mourning for the back yard opossom that passed away a few years
later -- it used to come out at night and eat fallen oranges.
93 93/93
Bill
B Heidrick
93,
Oops!
>Germer,
>Crowley's immediate successor as OHO of OTO, also closed Grant's camp
>and expelled Grant in 1995 e.v.;
Too sleepy in the morning when I posted that date from my other ISP. I should
have written "1955 e.v." -- as it was, I had Germer expelling Grant 33 years
after Germer's death! Neat trick, but it's a magical order after all. :-)
93 93/93
Bill Heidrick <heid...@well.com>
Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
B Heidrick wrote:
I had heard previously of the expulsion of Grant by Germer, though it was widely
thought within occult circles in Britain that Grant, who had substantive claims to
be Crowley's "literary executor", was in effect the OHO after Crowley. It was
certainly supposed (among those who cared to consider the matter) in the late
1970s that the OTO had effectively ceased to be, and that it had splintered
asunder in an orgy of "rival OHOs excommunicating each other".
It is consistent with the above, I suppose, that there could have been a residual
element of a London OTO group active in the late 1960s. The initiations being
offered were described as Masonic, not specifically OTO or "Minerval", although
the authority claimed was definitely Thelemic and was said to derive directly from
Aleister Crowley. I know of no overt connection, but it is perhaps pertinent that
Boleskine Lodge (Crowley's one-time home near Foyers, Inverness) wound up in the
ownership of another rather better known blues musician from the same milieu, in
the sense that both would show up in the same "Rock Family Tree".
There is no dispute (as far as I am concerned) that the Caliphate OTO presence
established in Britain during 1986 concluded a long period during which there had
been no organised and visible OTO activity in the country.
--
Bill Heidrick
"Fra V.I.T.R.I.O.L." <sfd.n...@workline.com> wrote:
> I had heard previously of the expulsion of Grant by Germer, though it was widely
>thought within occult circles in Britain that Grant, who had substantive claims to
>be Crowley's "literary executor", was in effect the OHO after Crowley.
Grant was not named literary executor in Crowley's last will and
testament, not mentioned in it at all. Symonds and Wilkinson were so
named. Germer discharged the literary executorship on receipt of the
property.
Crowley did recommend Grant to Germer as a possible OTO representative
in the UK. Germer tried Grant, and the expulsion resulted. Grant was
informal secretary to Crowley at Hastings for the better part of a
year during the London Blitz. Crowley named Germer successor to
headship of OTO in extant letters.
>It is consistent with the above, I suppose, that there could have been a residual
>element of a London OTO group active in the late 1960s.
Not from the documents I've seen. Germer instructed Fitzgerald to act
on his behalf to prevent any such formal activity in the late 1950's.
By the late 1960's, not even Gardner was active on OTO behalf in the
UK.
>The initiations being
>offered were described as Masonic, not specifically OTO or "Minerval", although
>the authority claimed was definitely Thelemic and was said to derive directly from
>Aleister Crowley. I know of no overt connection, but it is perhaps pertinent that
>Boleskine Lodge (Crowley's one-time home near Foyers, Inverness) wound up in the
>ownership of another rather better known blues musician from the same milieu, in
>the sense that both would show up in the same "Rock Family Tree".
Does the name Geoff Smith ring a bell? That fellow had some sort of
pretense to OTO going in the UK about then. Not a member.
>There is no dispute (as far as I am concerned) that the Caliphate OTO presence
>established in Britain during 1986 concluded a long period during which there had
>been no organised and visible OTO activity in the country.
We started initiations there in the year following Grady McMurtry's
death (immediate successor to Germer as OHO of OTO). Before then we
had a few Associate members in the UK and traveling members going
through. As of Feburary last (most recent demographics count), there
were 116 OTO members of known address in England.
93 93/93
Bill
jasid
known as Ordo Templi Orientis and the Freemasons...
we are given to understand that the OTO "no longer raises Masons",
was "benevolent" under the reign of the child sexual abuse and
murderer Aleister Crowley, and...is really concerning itself more
with its abstruse bylaws and constitution.
We're supposed to believe that Crowley and other devil worshippers
didn't really foment mayhem, satanic sacrifice of humans, and
other grave felonies. NOOO, that just can't be! And --having at
its disposal this murderous cult, our equally benevolent Masonic
buddies would NEVER consider using this terrorist faction (OTO)
to have its many enemies tortured and murdered. Surrre, I believe
you.
In actual fact, the Freemasons are a secret society which
works directly in opposition to the good causes of humanity.
The Ordo Templi Orientis is a murderous faction of the Freemasons
and must be understood as a grave threat to all informed critics
of "our good Freemason friends".
ri...@my-dejanews.com
underworld of Venus, they will return and head for you next.
Hey! It's possible. The above statement is a plausable as what you posted.
--
Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, Texas
In article <361D9A...@adaris.ici.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bill Heidrick
jasid <ja...@adaris.ici.net> wrote:
>In reply to the several questions about the satanic murder cult
>known as Ordo Templi Orientis and the Freemasons...
You don't read or think very clearly, it seems. OTO is a tax exempt,
incorporated, legal entity in the USA, therefore subject to some
public scrutiny. It would be impossible for such an entity to conceal
such activity for the many years that OTO has been around on that
ground alone. Given the large number of present and former OTO
members, it would be impossible to keep such illicit activity secret
on that additional ground. OTO isn't satanic, does not commit crimes
and is not a part of Freemasonry. Your remarks are slandorous on the
face, but their very absurdity is also evident.
>we are given to understand that the OTO "no longer raises Masons",
>was "benevolent" under the reign of the child sexual abuse and
>murderer Aleister Crowley, and...is really concerning itself more
>with its abstruse bylaws and constitution.
OTO doesn't make or rise Masons, neither does it claim to do so.
Crowley had one incident of possible self defense manslaughter in
India, when he was jumped by robbers and he discharged a firearm. He
is sometimes accused of neglect in the loss of members of his
expedition to climb K2.(Chogo Re), but losses under such conditions
are not unusual. There is no other recorded incident of a death
associated with Crowley under unresolved questionable circumstances.
There is no evidence of any child sexual abuse connected with Crowley
and known to me, although it is remotely possible that changes in laws
since his days (died in 1947) would have some effect on raising the
age of consent since he was alive, regarding partners. As to OTO's
concern with bylaws and such like, abstruse or not, that is the proper
business of any corporate legal entity. To do otherwise would be
neglectful of duty.
>We're supposed to believe that Crowley and other devil worshippers
>didn't really foment mayhem, satanic sacrifice of humans, and
>other grave felonies.
Crowley didn't worship the devil or believe in that imaginary critter.
I don't care what you believe, but what you alledge in public is an
entirely different matter.
>NOOO, that just can't be! And --having at
>its disposal this murderous cult, our equally benevolent Masonic
>buddies would NEVER consider using this terrorist faction (OTO)
>to have its many enemies tortured and murdered. Surrre, I believe
>you.
OTO does not murder, is not subject to Masonic control or vice versa,
does not commit or conspire to commit terrorist actions, does not
torture, and you are repeating yourself. As to "cult", what's that?
All small religious organizations are cults by the dictionary,
including devotional subdivisions of all large religions.
>In actual fact, the Freemasons are a secret society which
>works directly in opposition to the good causes of humanity.
>The Ordo Templi Orientis is a murderous faction of the Freemasons
>and must be understood as a grave threat to all informed critics
>of "our good Freemason friends".
What is your affiliation? You might as well be quoting Hitler in your
prejudiced remarks. This kind of stuff led to sticking OTO members,
Jews, Gypsies and Freemasons in Nazi concentration camps in WWII.
As to "Freemasons" being a secret society, you are being absurd. Most
freemasons make no secret of their membership and claims to membership
by such are quickly responded by their lodges. The rituals should
probably be secret, but have been published in more or less defective
form for over a century. In my personal opinion, humanity owes more
to Freemasonry, "ancient" and since the 18th century than to any other
entity. Certainly we owe more to the guild precursors of Freemasonry
in terms of personal rights and freedoms than to the Magna Carta.
Very likely you wouldn't have the internet, free publication rights
and free speech to air your dubious views if it had not been for the
advances in those areas brought about through the labor of masons over
the centuries. If, despite appearances, you chance to be an American
Protestant in creed, chances are freemasons helped to form your local
church, not as freemasons, but as individuals who may indeed have had
their sense of duty to society enhanced through their membership..
93 93/93
Bill
James Lindsey
>In reply to the several questions about the satanic murder cult
>known as Ordo Templi Orientis and the Freemasons...
>
>In actual fact, the Freemasons are a secret society which
>works directly in opposition to the good causes of humanity.
>The Ordo Templi Orientis is a murderous faction of the Freemasons
>and must be understood as a grave threat to all informed critics
>of "our good Freemason friends".
I wonder why you would even consider psoting this here? Aren't you affraid
the OTO will come and "get you"? Or is this some petty fiction you drew up
to entertain yourself?
?
--
James G. Lindsey, Jr., MM
Pentalpha #564
Indianapolis, IN
MasonTruth
>Message-id: <361D9A...@adaris.ici.net>
>
>In reply to the several questions about the satanic murder cult
>known as Ordo Templi Orientis and the Freemasons...
>
>was "benevolent" under the reign of the child sexual abuse and
>murderer Aleister Crowley, and...is really concerning itself more
>with its abstruse bylaws and constitution.
>
>didn't really foment mayhem, satanic sacrifice of humans, and
>its disposal this murderous cult, our equally benevolent Masonic
>buddies would NEVER consider using this terrorist faction (OTO)
>to have its many enemies tortured and murdered. Surrre, I believe
>you.
>
>works directly in opposition to the good causes of humanity.
>The Ordo Templi Orientis is a murderous faction of the Freemasons
>and must be understood as a grave threat to all informed critics
>of "our good Freemason friends".
>
What do you know about Freemasonry.. I always find it amusing when someone who
knows nothing about Freemasonry steps in and enlightens us who are Masons...
Thanks for the input...