Origins of freemasonry - Asherah / Ashtoreth "goddess" and phallus worship
Gregory Perry
E.W. Bullinger.
The word 'Asherah is from the root 'ashar, to be straight, erect, or
upright. From this comes the meaning, in a moral sense, to be upright,
hence, to prosper or be happy. The 'Asherah was so called because it was
something set upright or erect in the ground, and worshipped. The word
occurs forty times, and only a careful study of each passage will give a
correct view.
Compared with this, all that men may think or say about the 'Asherah is
of little value. The word is always rendered grove or groves in the
Authorized Version; and always left as a proper name in the Revised
Version.
From a conspectus of the passages, we learn that it was either a living
tree with the top cut off, and the stump or trunk fashioned into a certain
shape (Deuteronomy 16:21); or it was artificially fashioned and set erect
in the ground (Isaiah 17:8. 1 Kings 14:15; 16:33). It was made of wood
(Judges 6:26) or stone. What the shape was is indicated in 1 Kings 15:13,
and 2 Chronicles 15:16, where in the Authorized Version. "an idol in a
grove", should be (as in the Revised Version) "an abominable image for an
'Asherah". It could be "cut down" (Exodus 34:13, the first occurrence of
the word); "plucked up" (Micah 5:14); "burnt" (Deuteronomy 12:3); or
"broken in pieces" (2 Chronicles 34:4).
It is often coupled with mazzevoth, or stone "pillars" (Revised Version)
(and rendered images in Authorized Version), connected with Baal-worship.
That it could not have been in a "grove" is clear from 2 Kings 17:10,
where it is forbidden to set one up "under any green tree".
While it is distinguished from Ashtoreth the goddess, it is yet
associated with that goddess, Ashtoreth being representative of the
productive (or passive) principle of life; and Baal being representative of
the generative (or active) principle.
The image which represents the Phoenician Ashtoreth of Paphos, as the
sole object of worship in her temple, was an upright block of stone,
anointed with oil, and covered with an embroidered cloth.
Such stones are to be met with all over the Semitic world; especially in
Babylonia, in Syria, Palestine and Arabia. Even the Mahommedan sacred stone
(kaaba) at Mecca remains an object of reverence.
The place Beth-el was so called because of its anointed stone. There was
another Beth-el in Northern Israel.
Two columns of stone stood before every Phoenician temple. Those at Tyre
are described by Herodotus (ii. 44); and the "pillars of the sun" are
mentioned in 2 Chronicles 34:4. Isaiah 17:8, etc.
Like every form of "religion," it had to do with the "flesh;" and hence,
by the law of evolution (which is seen operating only in human affairs) it
soon became corrupted. Evolution is seen in the progress of man's works,
because he begins from ignorance, and goes on learning by his mistakes and
failures. From the moment he ends his works devolution at once sets in and
deterioration begins. This is specially true in the "religious" sphere. All
religions have become corrupt.
So with the 'Asherah. Originally a tree, symbolical of the "tree of
life," it was an object of reverence and veneration. Then came the
perversion of the earlier idea which simply honoured the origin of life;
and it was corrupted and debased into the organ of procreation, which was
symbolized by the form and shape given to the 'Asherah. It was the Phallus
image of Isaiah 57:8, and the "image of the male", Ezekiel 16:17.
These symbols, in turn, became the incentive to all forms of impurity
which were part of its libidinous worship, with the swarms of "devotees"
involved in its obscene orgies.
The serpent was accepted as the symbol of the nexus, and was thus
associated with the "pillar" and the "tree". Hence, it too became an object
of worship.
The principal factor in this form of Canaanite idolatry is that it was
not a primitive conception of a religious rite, but the corruption of an
earlier idea which began with honouring the origin of life.
All the ancient systems of idolatry, connected with Astrology and
Mythology, etc., were, in the same way, not original inventions of what was
new; but the corruption of what was old, and the perversion of primitive
truth.
There can be no doubt about its being, in its essence, Phallic worship
pure and simple, whatever may have been its origin. This abomination was
common to all the ancient nations; and relics of it are found to-day in
various forms, in India and elsewhere. The menhirs of the Celtic religion
are the true descendants of the 'Asherim.
At first it was centred in the Canaanitish nations; and from them it
spread to the others. It was the great abomination of Canaan, and that is
one reason why the Canaanites, as the descendants of the Nephilim, had to
be destroyed by the sword of Israel. The other reason was the origin of
those nations themselves (see Appendix 23 and Appendix 25), with which it
was closely connected. The first mention of the 'Asherah stamps it as being
the special object of Jehovah's hatred. It is given to explain His name as
"jealous"; for that is the name He takes in denouncing it. Compare His
threats in 1 Kings 14:15; 15:13; 16:32, 33; 2 Chronicles 36:14, etc.
It led to Israel's banishment from the land; and subsequently to that of
Judah's.
It is still preserved in veiled language in secret fraternities,
Freemasonry, Theosophy, and in the Roman Church; language so conceals it
that probably those who use it to-day have little idea of what they are
perpetuating; while the ancient symbols I O proclaim "sex as the true God
of Hosts," as the Kabbala declares.
A recrudescence of this is more than hinted at; and it will be better
understood when "the abomination" of Antichrist shall stand once again in
the Temple at Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15).
The following passages will show further the nature of this form of
idolatry :- Jeremiah 5:7; 7:30, 31; 19:4, 5; 37:34 - 35. Hosea 4:12 - 14.
Amos 2:7 - 9.
The word 'Asherah is noted in the margin of each passage where it occurs
in The Companion Bible, but the following complete list is given to put the
student in possession of the whole of the data; and thus to enable him to
form his own conclusions.
Exodus 34:14.
Deuteronomy 7:5; 12:3; 16:21.
Judges 3:7; 6:25, 26, 28, 30.
1 Kings 14:15, 23; 15:13; 16:33; 18:19 (sing).
2 Kings 13:6; 17:10, 16; 18:4; 21:3, 7; 23:4, 6, 7, 14, 15.
2 Chronicles 14:3; 15:16; 17:6; 19:3; 24:18; 31:1; 33:3, 19; 34:3, 4, 7.
Isaiah 17:8; 27:9.
Jeremiah 17:2.
Micah 5:14.
NOTES
1 See The Perfect Way, page 2, and The Computation of 666, pages 105-9.
2 Matthew 24:15; compare Daniel 9:27; 12:11.
bryan
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote a load of rot:
------ 8< snip a load of rot ------
there's only one "goddess" in my life... and she's sat here right next
to me, bless her!
Marcus
news:3d7f382f3faf073d...@news.teranews.com...
> The 'Asherah. This is Appendix 42 From The Companion Bible, commentary by
> E.W. Bullinger.
>
Well thanks for that. Brevity is King.
Marcus
FC Rowner 6974
UGLE
Jack Hickey
Oh, good. Another expert, here to teach us all about Freemasonry.
Stupid parts of the following post have been snipped.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:31:39 GMT, Gregory Perry
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote:
>The
Gregory Perry
Actually, Jack, E.W. Bullinger was a preeminent scholar in the field of
biblical translation and eschatology, born prior to the Civil War in 1837.
Educated at King's College, London, Bullinger was a recognized expert in
the field of biblical languages and translation, and was well educated in
the realm of eastern mysticism, including the esoteric and non dual
traditions that have been adopted by modern day freemasonry. Your treatise
of them thar "Stupid Parts", while highly intelligent and insightful to
boot, does not adequately describe Bullinger's work as a whole.
I've forwarded to the group a seminal work by one Darren McGovern entitled
"A Qabalistic Interpretation of Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham", which might
be something a bit more compatible with your school of thought.
Jack Hickey
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote:
>Actually, Jack, E.W. Bullinger was a preeminent scholar in the field of
>biblical translation and eschatology,
*nod* and I'm sure that Dr. Bullinger was a fine fellow who loved
his mother and changed his socks every month, too. Was he a Grand
Master of Freemasonry?
Part of the problem, Gregory, is that ONLY the GM's are authorized to
speak authoritatively for Freemasonry; and only within their own
jurisdictions, and only during their term of office.
Anything written by ANYONE else ... and that includes every word
written by General Pike ... is an opinion, a philosophical treatise
which may OR MAY NOT accurately reflect actual Masonic thought.
Doctor Bullinger may very well have been a "preeminent scholar in
biblical translation and eschatology." He may very well have been
an expert in ice-cream making and psychedelic eyelid painting, for all
I know. What were his Masonic credentials, empowering him to
expound upon Masonic philosophy?
Jack Hickey, PM, MPS
Master, Isaiah Thomas Lodge AF&AM Worcester MA
Major General Henry Knox Lodge, Boston MA
ethan's grandpa
www.geocities.com/isaiahthomas2001/
Vestan Pance
Gregory Perry
> *nod* and I'm sure that Dr. Bullinger was a fine fellow who loved
> his mother and changed his socks every month, too. Was he a Grand
> Master of Freemasonry?
Of course not. Bullinger spent his entire life exposing darkness, and
translated - literally - each word in the bible back from the original
texts, which resulted in the Companion Bible, published post humously
several years after his death. The E.W. Bullinger Companion Bible includes
commentary on each and every verse, including translations back to the
original Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Massoretic texts. In short, he wasn't
interested in Theosophy, Freemasonry, or any other flavor of the babylonian
talmud and kaballah that constitutes the mystery religions, and wrote about
them only from an empirical and historical perspective.
> Part of the problem, Gregory, is that ONLY the GM's are authorized to
> speak authoritatively for Freemasonry; and only within their own
> jurisdictions, and only during their term of office.
>
> Anything written by ANYONE else ... and that includes every word
> written by General Pike ... is an opinion, a philosophical treatise
> which may OR MAY NOT accurately reflect actual Masonic thought.
Then why is Albert Pike's written word still incorporated into the general
school of masonic thought? And, if each segment of freemasonry is in fact
subject to interpretation by regional GMs, then where exists the basic and
fundamental framework of freemasonry? Sounds like a moving target, a very
transient moving target with no real credo or dogmatic principle. That is
a dangerous concept in itself - TRUTH is not affected by the whim and fancy
of mortal men, weather, trends and patterns in society, or the latest
statistics from the stock market. TRUTH transcends all of those temporal
aspects of life, is timeless in itself, and exists as the basic fundamental
cornerstone of Christianity. The practice of freemasonry is in reality a
simple albeit covert extension of judaism, nothing more.
> Doctor Bullinger may very well have been a "preeminent scholar in
> biblical translation and eschatology." He may very well have been
> an expert in ice-cream making and psychedelic eyelid painting, for all
> I know. What were his Masonic credentials, empowering him to
> expound upon Masonic philosophy?
Every practice, religious or otherwise, has a history attributed to it that
can and should be used as a divining rod to determine the core concepts of
said practice. In the case of freemasonry, which is in reality a very very
young belief system in the grand general scheme of things, still borrows
heavily from the so-called esoteric schools of thought that originated in
Egypt. Regardless of what the current GM has to say about the matter,
freemasonry includes and incorporates kaballah worship in tandem with study
of the babylonian talmud, both of which are quite incompatible with
Christianity.
There is nothing about freemasonry that is secret, with the exception of the
oral traditions you spoke of that are left subject to interpretation by
regional GMs. Each and every thing that I've spoken of in recent posts,
including your own internal ceremonies and indoctrination procedures, can
be had for the paltry sum of $100 or so dollars from Amazon.com. That fact
in itself begs explanation - what then, exactly, does the lodge seek to
protect? Is it simply a culture of secrecy, or are there other parts of
freemasonry, business meanderings, hidden agendas, etc and otherwise, that
the masonic culture protects?
These are all contradictions - TRUTH has no such contradictions, and the
very concept and nature of secrecy is abhorrent to TRUTH.
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>Then why is Albert Pike's written word still incorporated into the general
>school of masonic thought?
Your clumsy attempt at a question cannot be answered. It presupposes
something that is not true.
In particular, Pike's work is not part of Masonry in ANY Masonic
jurisdiction in the real world.
I really hope you didn't pay anything for your misinformation.
>And, if each segment of freemasonry is in fact
>subject to interpretation by regional GMs, then where exists the basic and
>fundamental framework of freemasonry?
Nope again. Each Masonic jurisdiction (hundreds of them in the USA
alone - 51 mainstream and many smaller ones) is Sovereign. That means
that it makes it's own rules and sets it's own laws. Each is presided
over by a Grand Master, who is elected from the membership for a
one-year term. Grand Masters are not "regional", they preside over
Sovereign jurisdictions.
>Sounds like a moving target, a very
>transient moving target with no real credo or dogmatic principle.
Correct. Credos and dogma are found in religions - well, most of
them, anyway.
Freemasonry is a fraternity.
>Regardless of what the current GM has to say about the matter,
>freemasonry includes and incorporates kaballah worship in tandem with study
>of the babylonian talmud,
<ROFL>
It does? Where?
> what then, exactly, does the lodge seek to protect?
It's privacy. Who has paid dues, to whom is paid moneys, whether or
not we will be cooking chicken at the picnic this year. That sort of
thing.
>Is it simply a culture of secrecy, or are there other parts of
>freemasonry, business meanderings, hidden agendas, etc and otherwise, that
>the masonic culture protects?
Nope. It is a fraternity, much like many other fraternities.
Remarkably like Scouting, but without the camp outs, and with a
different metaphor.
>These are all contradictions - TRUTH has no such contradictions, and the
>very concept and nature of secrecy is abhorrent to TRUTH.
<LOL>
I bet some "security companies" with web sites advertising their
skills at keeping things secret and secure would be amused at that
notion.
--
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
Brother Gene .*.
past Master of two (2) Black Lodges
Blackmer #442 and Black Mountain #845
Egotistic but helpful leader and privileged part owner of alt.freemasonry
Often imitated, never duplicated!
H.M.S.H.
Q.P.H.D.
Regular 1,765 degree Mason
Most Wonderful Grand High Exhaulted Imperial Omnipotent Mystic Regal Stomper, and Wearer of the Official Purple Underwear
http://www.blackmountainlodge.net
http://www.freemason.org
http://mastermason.com/BrotherGene
http://www.mastermason.com/BrotherGene/frequently_asked_questions.htm
MBBFMN #387
ICQ #503060
************************************
"Are you guys ready? Let's Roll!!"
Todd Beamer, Flight 93
************************************
And in case I don't see ya' - Good Afternoon, Good Evening and Good Night!
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCM/CC/TW/O d--(++) s:,s++ a+ C+(++++) U--- P! L-- E! W++ N+++ o-- K- w++++ O---- M--(+) V? PS+++ Y+ PGP-- t* 5 X- R* tv+++ b++ DI+++ D G e* h---- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Remember: Your Masonry may be different from someone else's.
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2003. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
Objects in this post are funnier than they appear
Can you imagine a world without hypothetical situations?
Does this line make my sig look too fat?
Be seeing you
Jack Hickey
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote:
>The E.W. Bullinger Companion Bible includes
>commentary on each and every verse, including translations back to the
>original Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Massoretic texts.
It sounds fascinating, from your description and what I've just been
reading about it on the Net. I'm placing an order for a copy with
B&N on Monday. Thank you.
>> Anything written by ANYONE else ... and that includes every word
>> written by General Pike ... is an opinion, a philosophical treatise
>> which may OR MAY NOT accurately reflect actual Masonic thought.
>Then why is Albert Pike's written word still incorporated into the general
>school of masonic thought?
*shrug* When your first premise fails, your whole argument fails.
There are some Masons, including a few who frequent this newsgroup,
who are interested in Pike. The great majority of Masons,
worldwide, are not.
Personally, I am the installed Master of a Lodge, a Knight of the
Temple, and a Shriner; and I've never read Pike. I have yet to meet
a Mason (in person) who has read Pike.
I *tried* to read "Morals and Dogma" once. It found it highly
soporific.
A year or so ago, I conducted an informal survey of my Lodge; I was
able to find ONE Mason in my Lodge (other than myself) who has ever
even heard of General Pike. This other fellow has been a Mason
for almost seventy years. He has heard of Albert Pike. Never
read anything written by him, but he had heard of him, as the author
of a very old and very dusty book in the library.
I pulled the Masonic Library's copy of "Morals and Dogma" a couple of
years ago; a copy printed in the 1920's. The pages were yellowing,
and many of them still stuck together from the original printing.
No one has EVER checked this book out; from the look of it, no one
ever pulled it off the shelf since it was new, until I did.
Now, I am not going to make any comments on the relative worth of
General Pike's work. I don't know anything about it except for
occasional excerpts I've read here in this newsgroup, and I don't know
anyone who does know anything about it. I have read a few remarks
from Scottish Rite Masons who have posted here that they found the
book worthwhile, which I think is wonderful for them.
Please do consider giving a re-think to "incorporated into the general
school of Masonic thought."
> And, if each segment of freemasonry is in fact
>subject to interpretation by regional GMs,
There is, I think, a significant difference between "regional" GM's,
who, as far as I can understand the term, do not exist; and the Grand
Masters of each jurisdiction. Within his own jurisdiction, and
during his term of office, a Grand Master of Masons is SOVEREIGN,
rather than "regional" -- beholden to no one, answerable only to the
assembled Grand Lodge.
A Grand Master's decisions may be subject to interpretation, even
reversal, by the body of the Grand Lodge -- but by no one else except
the next GM.
>then where exists the basic and
>fundamental framework of freemasonry?
That is what we refer to as "Landmarks." The Landmarks are those
traditional aspects of the Fraternity which give Freemasonry its shape
and historical continuity. For example, the use of the Apron as
the "badge of a Mason," the Hiramic Legend in the third degree; the
three-degree system itself, the titles of "Master" and "Wardens" as
the presiding officers of a Lodge, the use of the symbolism of the
working tools of the building trade to illustrate moral lessons ....
that sort of thing. They are Landmarks. If you change them,
what you have is something that looks like Freemasonry, but isn't.
This gets complicated, too, since not every jurisdiction agrees on
exactly what the Landmarks are, or even that there ARE any.
There are distinct differences between jurisdictions -- in this very
newsgroup, you'll sometimes see a comment by a Mason prefaced by the
abbreviation "IMJ" -- in my jurisdiction -- because we realize that
things are done differently in other places.
>Sounds like a moving target, a very
>transient moving target with no real credo or dogmatic principle.
*nod* You're getting the idea. "No real credo or dogmatic
principle." I'll accept that. No dogmas in Freemasonry.
No need for them, either, since Freemasonry is demonstrably NOT a
religion in itself. At best, it is an adjunct, or, as we phrase it
IMJ in the Second Degree, "interwoven with religion" -- but not
religion itself. It is ultimately irrelevant which particular
religion or Creed a particular Mason practices, as far as Masonry
itself is concerned.
>The practice of freemasonry is in reality a
>simple albeit covert extension of judaism, nothing more.
Interesting premise. Can you justify it?
If Freemasonry is an extension of Judaism, and I am the Master of a
Lodge, would that make me a Rabbi?
>Every practice, religious or otherwise, has a history attributed to it that
>can and should be used as a divining rod to determine the core concepts of
>said practice.
"Attributed to it" being the key words here, Greg. A history
attributed to it BY OTHERS who may or may not -- usually not -- have
the first idea of what they are talking about. In the early years
of Christianity, the earliest disciples were explicitly accused of
Cannibalism -- because they seriously claimed to eat flesh and drink
blood! The others who "attributed history" to them did not
understand the underlying symbolism BEHIND those core concepts.
>Regardless of what the current GM has to say about the matter,
>freemasonry includes and incorporates kaballah worship in tandem with study
>of the babylonian talmud, both of which are quite incompatible with
>Christianity.
I know very little about either Kabalah or Talmud, personally, never
having studied either; so I am not really qualified to expound upon
how compatible either may be with Christianity. I would be
interested in hearing why YOU think they are not compatible, though.
>There is nothing about freemasonry that is secret, with the exception of the
>oral traditions you spoke of that are left subject to interpretation by
>regional GMs. Each and every thing that I've spoken of in recent posts,
>including your own internal ceremonies and indoctrination procedures, can
>be had for the paltry sum of $100 or so dollars from Amazon.com.
You spent a hundred dollars to read the initiation ceremonies of
Freemasonry? "Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry" is available in most
fine bookstores for only about eleven dollars, and I have seen all
three degrees written out, in detail, on several webpages -- for free.
The ritual given in Duncan is not actively used anywhere, as far as I
know, but it is similar enough that, if I get stuck on remembering a
word in my cipher book, I can often find the correct word in Duncan.
Your statement, above, that "there is nothing about Freemasonry that
is secret" is absolutely correct, though you mucked it up by
continuing past the comma.
>That fact
>in itself begs explanation - what then, exactly, does the lodge seek to
>protect? Is it simply a culture of secrecy, or are there other parts of
>freemasonry, business meanderings, hidden agendas, etc and otherwise, that
>the masonic culture protects?
Let me give you an example.
A few years ago, my Lodge became aware of the situation of a local
elderly gentleman, not a Mason, the neighbor of one of the Brethren.
This old fellow -- in his late 80's then, and since passed -- was
having a hard time surviving on his Social Security payments. The
old gentleman had no food in his house for two weeks of each month;
his utilities were in immediate danger of being shut off for
nonpayment, and the town was dunning him for property taxes.
It's often a shame, the way the elderly are treated ...
My lodge took care of his utility payments, so that he would not lose
his heat and lights with winter approaching, and we paid his property
tax for him so that he wouldn't lose his home; we spent a couple of
hundred dollars to put food in his house. One of the Lodge brethren
is a lawyer, and another was (until recently) a government worker, a
caseworker for Medicare. Those two Brothers worked together and
made very darned sure that the old man would not have the same
problems again. The caseworker actually got the SSI payments
increased so that the old man had money at the end of the month,
rather than the other way 'round.
The old man lived quite easily, from then until he passed. He had no
family at his funeral -- he had outlived them all -- so most of the
mourners were Masons; and most of the Masons had never met the man.
Now, I could easily have published the details of what we did in the
local newspaper, and bought us a little free publicity at the expense
of the old man's pride and dignity; I could easily give you the old
man's name right here, right now.
But I won't. It's a secret. NO ONE outside the Lodge needs to
know.
Want another example? A 10-year-old little girl in my foster
daughter's class at school needs glasses -- she's severely
nearsighted. Her (single) mother can't afford the glasses. I
brought the problem to the Lodge, and we made the appointment at
Lenscrafters. The optometrist is preparing the glasses right now
... they may be ready tonight. The little lady will have glasses on
her face at school on Monday.
Should I tell you her name, and her mother's? Should I publicize
it? Maybe we should let all her little friends know that this
little girl needed a helping hand, and embarrass her ...
Better all around to keep it a secret, isn't it?
Want another example? I have more ... every one of us here has
several.
>These are all contradictions - TRUTH has no such contradictions, and the
>very concept and nature of secrecy is abhorrent to TRUTH.
Just a few lines above, you stated that there is "nothing about
Freemasonry that is secret," yet you go on to damn Freemasonry for its
secrecy. Am I allowed to be confused, here?
Gregory Perry
> Nope. It is a fraternity, much like many other fraternities.
> Remarkably like Scouting, but without the camp outs, and with a
> different metaphor.
Except when someone challenges the authority and/or principles of the lodge,
they get ruined. Personally, in business, financially, every aspect of
their life dumped into the largest intelligence entity on the face of the
planet, the hidden hand's agenda of vindication.
bryan
oh good lord... another one who's read "inside the brotherhood".
grow up, gregory.
Jawn
gr...@PerryResearch.com says...
<de-lurking>
Ah! Now we're getting somewhere; an honest to goodness, bold and
unequivocal assertion.
Got anything like verifiable proof to support it?
David Simpson
Can you name one person that you know personally to whom that has
happened?
Can you produce one name from anywhere of one person to whom it can be
proven that has happened?
If I was a betting man, which I'm not, I be prepared to bet my entire
life savings that you cannot find one nameable case of that happening
anywhere in the entire world. Plenty of rumours, innuendo, urban
legend type of stuff but no substance and never any names.
If you consider that to be the case then why are you posting here?
Aren't you scared that you are going to become a victim?
Thank you for the entertainment. Don't quit your day job.
--
Regards
David Simpson (Remove "farook" to reply)
(Unattached MM)
Bad manners should not be a capital crime ...
for a first offence.
Robert Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"
Joe Steve Swick III
Bullinger spent his entire life exposing darkness, and translated -
literally - each word in the bible back from the original texts, which
resulted in the Companion Bible, published post humously several years after
his death. The E.W. Bullinger Companion Bible includes commentary on each
and every verse, including translations back to the original Hebrew,
Aramaic, Greek, and Massoretic texts. In short, he wasn't interested in
Theosophy, Freemasonry, or any other flavor of the babylonian talmud and
kaballah that constitutes the mystery religions, and wrote about them only
from an empirical and historical perspective.
Unfortunately for you, Gregory, it appears that Father Abraham worshipped
Asherah, and that Sarah was her priestess, and that this was the reason they
were hanging out around the terebinths at Mamre. One of the first things
that Abraham did when he got a son was... plant a GROVE OF TREES. Go read it
for yourself in Genesis. Now, if you'd like some scholarly commentary a bit
more recent than the late Dr. Bullinger, you might read Savina J. Teubal,
Sarah the Priestess: The First Matriarch of Genesis.
Of course, there is much more about this. Raphael Patai has done a wonderful
work entitled "The Hebrew Goddess." I have the third enlarged edition of
this book. Dr. Patai notes that not only was Asherah considered the consort
of YHWH, but a place was set aside in the Holy Temple at Jerusalem, where
she was reverenced. And more: broidered on the veil before the Holy of
Holies, were Cherubim, apparently in erotic embrace. When the temple was
destroyed and its treasures taken, much ridicule was heaped upon Israel for
this -- apparently it scandalized even pagans.
The concept of the Divine Bride (or Heavenly Mother) persists into modern
Judaism, especially in mystical Jewish circles, in the greeting of the
Shekinah, the Sabbath Bride.
And, perhaps unconsidered by you, such ideas persist in Christianity, as
well -- at least n the image of the Church as Bride of God, and the
Celestial Marriage Feast. Some scholars would argue that this kind of
image persists in Christianity, because initially it was itself a stream of
mystical Judaism. This is demonstrated by quite a few Christian notions that
are not part of normative Judaism, but find their closes parallel with the
Kabbalistic traditions you wish to disparage in Dr. Bullinger's name.
Some times they go beyond that. For instance, the image of Mary, both Mother
of God, and Consort of the Divine (and I dont' mean just the Catholic
belief) stretches even mystical Judaism until it touches directly with
Egyptian and Asian goddess myths.
I wonder what Dr. Bullinger would say about that. :-) Perhaps, Mr. Perry,
you should broaden your reading and look in the mirror a while before you
wag a critical finger at Freemasonry -- which in fact is not at all guilty
of the crimes you would lay at her door.
Kindest,
Joe Swick
Heretic
Jim Bennie
<hic...@netzero.comd> wrote:
> The ritual given in Duncan is not actively used anywhere, as far as I
> know, but it is similar enough that, if I get stuck on remembering a
> word in my cipher book, I can often find the correct word in Duncan.
Speaking of your own jurisdiction, it should be mentioned. The book
isn't remotely close to what my lodge uses or in too many places
outside the USA. It'd be absolutely useless.
The same as your "interwoven with religion". No degree in my lodges
makes such a claim. I think that's Webb via Preston.
Jim Bennie
PM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver
Jim Bennie
> On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 23:47:00 GMT, Gregory Perry
> <gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>>they get ruined. Personally, in business, financially, every aspect of
>>their life dumped into the largest intelligence entity on the face of the
>>planet, the hidden hand's agenda of vindication.
> Can you produce one name from anywhere of one person to whom it can be
> proven that has happened?
Well, there's Rain Barrel Man. ;)
Frankly, I'm trying to figure out his, er, cryptic, reference to
"the largest intelligence entity of the face of the planet", whatever
that's supposed to be.
Jim Bennie
PM/DC, Lodge Southern Cross No. 44, Vancouver
Jack Hickey
Bennie) wrote:
>Speaking of your own jurisdiction, it should be mentioned.
I think I did mention that ... a couple of times.
Jack
Malcolm Tucker
"Jim Bennie" <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:blohvp$5oa$1...@luna.vcn.bc.ca...
> Frankly, I'm trying to figure out his, er, cryptic, reference to
> "the largest intelligence entity of the face of the planet", whatever
> that's supposed to be.
>
Don't knock it Jim, He's trying to say he thinks we are all clever
Malcolm
Lion of the North Lodge..
KIV11
>Except when someone challenges the authority and/or principles of the lodge,
>they get ruined. Personally, in business, financially, every aspect of
>their life dumped into the largest intelligence entity on the face of the
>planet, the hidden hand's agenda of vindication.
>
Ok, because of your incredibly closed mind and presupposed position on
Freemasonry, consider yourself ruined!
George K.
Gregory Perry
Yahweh/Jehova, and predated Christianity with traditions such as
Zoroaster/Zarathushtra, Mithraism, and a host of other systems that
freemasonry borrows from. In short, a matriarchal v. patriarchal form of
worship that is now making the rounds in the form of "New Age" philosophy,
Theosophy, and kaballah worship, to name a few.
It was a perversion of the original tree of life, and as any student of the
bible can plainly see was considered blasephemy by Jehovah.
Catholicism (especially post-Vatican II) also borrows heavily from such
symbology, as Roman Catholicism was itself an attempted hybrid of the
goddess mythos and Christianity.
Kaballah worship has no place with Christianity, and advocates the use of
black magic, incantations, amulets, and occult symbology that is in direct
conflict with the bible - which is no wonder why the adoption of
kaballastic magic and study is sweeping the nation, especially hollywood -
madonna is into it (and mentioned how "wonderful" her newfound worship of
kaballah was at an interview about her children's book last month), and a
list of other silver screen luminaries such as Roseanne Barr, Sandra
Bernhard and Elizabeth Taylor, the list goes on and on.
What you guys don't understand is that by promoting the so-called babylonian
mystery religions ("mystery babylon" in end-speak), you are helping usher
in the END, the study of which has been obfuscated and confused to the
point of ridicule - "you actually believe THAT bullshit? That's silly,
lets go watch Fox News."
The END, is quite simple, and is the Parable of the Fig Tree spoken of by
Jesus Christ, Mt 24:32-34, Mk 13:28-30, Lk 21:28-32, the clock of which
started ticking with the reunification of Israel on May 14 1948:
1) A combination and tolerance of all the major World religions, spiritual
dialecticism if you will
2) The process of purification from Numbers, which includes ritual sacrifice
in the form of a perfect red heifer, here it is, thanks to some Texas "born
again" Christian cattle farmers and genetic engineering:
http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/RedHeifer/
http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher041102.asp
Referred to by David Landau from Haaretz as "a four-legged bomb", never mind
the fact that ritual sacrifice was OVER after the Order of Melchizedek, it
ended with the advent of Jesus Christ, his blood was the final atonement.
3) The rebuilding of the Third Temple in Jerusalem (must get rid of the Dome
of the Rock first, so now the threat is of course those terrorist Muslim
fanatics)
4) SHOWTIME - Antichrist stands on the Temple Mount, bling bling, and
declares himself the Christ, the Bodhisattva, the Maitreya Buddah,
Judaism's Moschiach, THE MESSIAH. The literal translation of antichrist is
not against Christ, he isn't some pointy headed red devil, the definition
is "instead of Christ, anti-christos", he's the REPLACEMENT, there is no
rapture, that's a pile of mistruth propagated by the so-called born again
Christian religious right who don't have time to pick up a bible, a greek
lexicon, and a copy of Strong's.
And YOU guys, with your self described matriarchal extension of judaism,
fall for it hook line and sinker. And so does everyone else that you've
polluted with the message.
You've distracted them from the TRUTH, which is a line by line
interpretation of the bible, it's not hard to do and a child can figure it
out, as long as he or she isn't occupied with some mystery babylon garbage
that's as old as the planet.
Gregory Perry
>>Except when someone challenges the authority and/or principles of the
>>lodge,
>>they get ruined. Personally, in business, financially, every aspect of
>>their life dumped into the largest intelligence entity on the face of the
>>planet, the hidden hand's agenda of vindication.
>>
> Can you name one person that you know personally to whom that has
> happened?
>
> Can you produce one name from anywhere of one person to whom it can be
> proven that has happened?
>
> If I was a betting man, which I'm not, I be prepared to bet my entire
> life savings that you cannot find one nameable case of that happening
> anywhere in the entire world. Plenty of rumours, innuendo, urban
> legend type of stuff but no substance and never any names.
>
> If you consider that to be the case then why are you posting here?
> Aren't you scared that you are going to become a victim?
>
> Thank you for the entertainment. Don't quit your day job.
Yes, I can.
It happened to me.
I lost everything.
Stay tuned for details.
Malcolm Tucker
"Gregory Perry" <gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote in message
> David Simpson wrote:
>
> Yes, I can.
>
> It happened to me.
>
> I lost everything.
>
> Stay tuned for details.
And yet you still have Perry Research Inc . . . . . . .
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>David Simpson wrote:
It did? Do you have proof that Freemasons were behind it or was it
just your own bad business decisions? We would like names and lodge
numbers of those responsible so that, if what you are claiming
actually happened, we can expel those people from our honourable
fraternity.
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>The so-called goddess mythos you speak of is an absolute abomination to
>Yahweh/Jehova, and predated Christianity with traditions such as
>Zoroaster/Zarathushtra, Mithraism, and a host of other systems that
>freemasonry borrows from. In short, a matriarchal v. patriarchal form of
>worship that is now making the rounds in the form of "New Age" philosophy,
>Theosophy, and kaballah worship, to name a few.
>
The fish are biting well tonight. If you had read more than the first
few lines before jumping in to top post your tirade you may have
learnt something new. Ho hum.
>It was a perversion of the original tree of life, and as any student of the
>bible can plainly see was considered blasephemy by Jehovah.
>
Since you are obviously not a student of the Bible how can you tell?
>Catholicism (especially post-Vatican II) also borrows heavily from such
>symbology, as Roman Catholicism was itself an attempted hybrid of the
>goddess mythos and Christianity.
>
>Kaballah worship has no place with Christianity, and advocates the use of
>black magic, incantations, amulets, and occult symbology that is in direct
>conflict with the bible - which is no wonder why the adoption of
>kaballastic magic and study is sweeping the nation, especially hollywood -
>madonna is into it (and mentioned how "wonderful" her newfound worship of
>kaballah was at an interview about her children's book last month), and a
>list of other silver screen luminaries such as Roseanne Barr, Sandra
>Bernhard and Elizabeth Taylor, the list goes on and on.
>
Does Kaballah advocate the use of black magic? I think your ignorance
is showing.
>What you guys don't understand is that by promoting the so-called babylonian
>mystery religions ("mystery babylon" in end-speak), you are helping usher
>in the END, the study of which has been obfuscated and confused to the
>point of ridicule - "you actually believe THAT bullshit? That's silly,
>lets go watch Fox News."
>
The problem for you is that Freemasonry does not promote any religions
let alone the "so-called babylonian mystery religions". You obviously
believe some pretty way-out rubbish which has no relation to truth.
What "matriarchal extension of judaism"? It is you who have fallen for
the claptrap of the anti-masons hook, line and sinker. It is yourself
that has been polluted with the wrong message.
>You've distracted them from the TRUTH, which is a line by line
>interpretation of the bible, it's not hard to do and a child can figure it
>out, as long as he or she isn't occupied with some mystery babylon garbage
>that's as old as the planet.
>
You are trying hard to distract us with lies. Freemasonry does not
occupy itself with anything about Babylon at all. Babylon is not
mentioned in the Ceremonies and Ritual of a Freemason's Lodge. ...
Well not in my jurisdiction anyway.
Jawn
gr...@PerryResearch.com says...
>
> Yes, I can.
>
> It happened to me.
>
> I lost everything.
>
> Stay tuned for details.
Remember, verifiable proof is required. Just what "verifiable" means is
left as an exercise for you. Anything less is just wasting your time.
Gregory Perry
> Since you are obviously not a student of the Bible how can you tell?
Ho hum.
> Does Kaballah advocate the use of black magic? I think your ignorance
> is showing.
Christian Kabbalists led by Pico della Mirandola, 'No science can better
convince us of the divinity of Christ than magic and Kabbalah'
Franciscan monk Francesco Giorgi's 1525 tribute to the Zohar, "De Harmonia
mundi" and Cornelius Agrippa's "De Occulta Philosophia" circa 1531,
resulting in 1564 occult masterwork "Monas hieroglyphica", reigning figure
of Protestant occultism, Dr. John Dee, the astrologer royal to Queen
Elizabeth I and founder of Freemasonry.
Sanhedrin 25d - Jewish women are "witches" by observing that "such is the
way of the world"
"Sefer HaRazim" and "Harba de Mosheh", Sanhedrin 17a decrees that to be
qualified for appointment to the Sanhedrin (religion court), a man must be
a practitioner of sorcery.
Rabbi Simon ben Yohai uses magic to turn opponent into a 'heap of bones'
(Shevi'it 38d)
Rabbis use sorcery to create a calf (Sanhedrin 65b)
Rabbi Isaac Luria, Kabbalistic sage, "after tikkun was accomplished the
spirit of Cain would prevail on earth" - didn't Cain murder his brother,
Abel? What's that Tubal Cain thing freemasonry talks about?
Sefer Yetzirah - fortune telling, numerology, astrology as ways to contact
DEMONS.
Sefer Yetzira's modern publisher, "...aids the development of telekinetic
and telepathic powers. These powers were meant to help initiates perform
feats that outwardly appeared magical. The magical kabbalah...uses various
signs, incantations...by which initiates could influence or alter natural
events."
"The influence of Kabbalah on exoteric Judaism was widespread, presenting
Jews with a powerful set of mystical symbols...influencing halakah and
giving magical practices respectability as elements of practical Kabbalah."
Alan Unterman, Dictionary of Jewish Lore and Legend (offical of the
Yeshurun Synagogue in Gatley, England)
The Gnostic components are too many to mention, Simon Magnus, first Gnostic,
"Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and
amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was the power of God
that is called great"
Gershom Scholem (1897-1982) was Professor of Kabbalah at Hebrew University
in Jerusalem. "...in practical Kabbalah...a good deal of 'BLACK' MAGIC --
that is, MAGIC...of various DARK, DEMONIC POWERS...Such BLACK MAGIC
embraced a wide realm of DEMONOLOGY and various forms of SORCERY that were
designed to disrupt the natural order of things and to create illicit
connections between things that were meant to be kept separate...In the
Tikkunei Zohar the manipulation of such forces is considered justifiable
under certain circumstances..." (!!!!!!???)
More from Scholem "...amulets and protective charms can be found side by
side with the invocation of DEMONS, INCANTATIONS...and even SEXUAL MAGIC
and NECROMANCY...As early as the geonic period the title ba'al shem, or
'master of the name' signified a master of practical Kabbalah who was an
expert at issuing amulets for various purposes, invoking ANGELS or DEMONS"
1996 Israeli elections, Rabbi Kedouri distributes "kabbalistic amulets" to
those Israelis who promised to vote for Shas. The "good luck
charms...swayed thousands of voters"
Yeshivat Kamekubalim, rabbinic seminary, noted for "specializing in the
occult"
Sefer Raziel:
"...amulets and incantations have to be tested and approved. The rabbi or
kabbalist who gives his blessing can be blamed or lose his reputation if
his charm does not work; conversely he gains kudos -- and a good income --
if his amulets or spells are effective" Helen Jacobus, "Eye Jinx", Jewish
Chronicle May 7 1999
"Kabbalists taught that the Torah...is a vast body of symbols...symbolic
discourse assumes control" Lawrence Fine, "Kabbalistic Texts"
http://www.geocities.com/elemental_adept/ (High Magic, the Hermetic
Kabbalah)
Most of above quotes from Michael Hoffman's "Judaisms Strange Gods". Do
yourself a favor and pick up a copy before you stick your foot in your
mouth again.
The list goes on and on, and I'm tired of typing. Kabbalah is sorcery.
> The problem for you is that Freemasonry does not promote any religions
> let alone the "so-called babylonian mystery religions". You obviously
> believe some pretty way-out rubbish which has no relation to truth.
mmmmmmmmmkkkaaaay...
Refute it then, give citations and facts, not mere mortal opinions. Hidden
from the blue lodge, the "outer portico to the Temple" has no clue what
goes on up top. Freemasonry borrows heavily from Kabbalah.
> What "matriarchal extension of judaism"? It is you who have fallen for
> the claptrap of the anti-masons hook, line and sinker. It is yourself
> that has been polluted with the wrong message.
mmmmmkkkay...
> You are trying hard to distract us with lies. Freemasonry does not
> occupy itself with anything about Babylon at all. Babylon is not
> mentioned in the Ceremonies and Ritual of a Freemason's Lodge. ...
> Well not in my jurisdiction anyway.
Refute the arguments then with citations, quotes, and research, none of your
mortal opinions.
Kaballah and Babylonian Talmud == sorcery.
Sorcery is not compatible with the bible & Christianity.
Gal. 5:19-20
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
fornications, uncleaness, lasciviousness,"
20 "Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies," witchcraft = sorcery. Gr. "pharmakeia", or Gr.
"pharmakon"
Next.......
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out 130 lines, part of
one of which had something to do with the fraternity of Freemasonry:
>Freemasonry borrows heavily from Kabbalah.
It does? How, where?
Please provide some facts to support your most interesting claim.
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>Except when someone challenges the authority and/or principles of the lodge,
>they get ruined.
<LOL>
You have never actually been in a Masonic Lodge, have you? We had a
discussion last meeting about changing our meeting night.
What a disagreement!
No one was ruined.
> Personally, in business, financially, every aspect of
>their life dumped into the largest intelligence entity on the face of the
>planet, the hidden hand's agenda of vindication.
>
We also have bases on the moon. Did you know that?
<LOL>
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>Yes, I can.
>It happened to me.
>I lost everything.
Everything but your business, it seems.
What else was there for you to lose? Your sanity?
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote 128 lines of anti-Jewish vitriol,
without a single bit of relationship to the fraternity of Freemasonry,
other than the posting of the bile to this newsgroup.
>The so-called goddess mythos you speak of is an absolute abomination to
[blablabla snipped]
Malcolm Tucker
"Gregory Perry" <gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote in message
> reigning figure of Protestant occultism, Dr. John Dee, the astrologer
royal to Queen
> Elizabeth I and founder of Freemasonry.
Please provide some support for this statement.
The origins of freemasonry of of great interest to many Masons, so some
proof of our founder's input will be most welcome.
> Snipped lots of weird stuff ending with <
> The list goes on and on, and I'm tired of typing. Kabbalah is sorcery.
Yes , but what does sorcery or Kabbalah have to do with Freemasonry ?
> Hidden from the blue lodge, the "outer portico to the Temple" has no clue
what
> goes on up top. Freemasonry borrows heavily from Kabbalah.
How do you know?
You claim that 99.999% of the members - who are exhorted many times " To
make a daily advancement in masonic knowledge" -have no clue what goes on ,
yet you have figured it all out.
Well done !
>
> Refute the arguments then with citations, quotes, and research, none of
your
> mortal opinions.
You are making the weird claims about freemasonry - back up your claims with
some creditable sources.
> Kaballah and Babylonian Talmud == sorcery.
> Sorcery is not compatible with the bible & Christianity.
And the relation of this to Freemasonry is. . . . .?
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>David Simpson wrote:
>
>> Since you are obviously not a student of the Bible how can you tell?
>
>Ho hum.
>
>> Does Kaballah advocate the use of black magic? I think your ignorance
>> is showing.
>
[snip]
>
>Most of above quotes from Michael Hoffman's "Judaisms Strange Gods". Do
>yourself a favor and pick up a copy before you stick your foot in your
>mouth again.
>
>The list goes on and on, and I'm tired of typing. Kabbalah is sorcery.
>
OK. Now show that Freemasonry uses Kabbalah.
>> The problem for you is that Freemasonry does not promote any religions
>> let alone the "so-called babylonian mystery religions". You obviously
>> believe some pretty way-out rubbish which has no relation to truth.
>
>mmmmmmmmmkkkaaaay...
>
>Refute it then, give citations and facts, not mere mortal opinions. Hidden
>from the blue lodge, the "outer portico to the Temple" has no clue what
>goes on up top. Freemasonry borrows heavily from Kabbalah.
>
LOL. You are the one making the accusations. You need to prove your
case. I may not be a member of too many of the ancillary bodies but,
legally, they are not part of Freemasonry. No Freemason is forced to
join any further organisations after the Craft lodge. All those
organisations do is add further expositions of the knowledge attained
in the first three degrees. In other words, more morality plays.
>> What "matriarchal extension of judaism"? It is you who have fallen for
>> the claptrap of the anti-masons hook, line and sinker. It is yourself
>> that has been polluted with the wrong message.
>
>mmmmmkkkay...
>
>> You are trying hard to distract us with lies. Freemasonry does not
>> occupy itself with anything about Babylon at all. Babylon is not
>> mentioned in the Ceremonies and Ritual of a Freemason's Lodge. ...
>> Well not in my jurisdiction anyway.
>
>Refute the arguments then with citations, quotes, and research, none of your
>mortal opinions.
>
So you do consider that eyewitness accounts are unacceptable, yet you
are prepared to convict on hearsay and other inadmissible evidence.
As I stated Babylon is NOT mentioned in the ceremonies and ritual of
Freemasonry in my jurisdiction. I know as I have been through those
degrees.
How is it possible for me to quote something which does not exist?
>Kaballah and Babylonian Talmud == sorcery.
>
>Sorcery is not compatible with the bible & Christianity.
>
I agree. You have yet to prove that "Sorcery" exists in any form or
has any actual results.
>Gal. 5:19-20
>19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
>fornications, uncleaness, lasciviousness,"
>20 "Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
>seditions, heresies," witchcraft = sorcery. Gr. "pharmakeia", or Gr.
>"pharmakon"
>
Witchcraft, sorcery do not equal the Greek "pharmakeia". This is the
word which gives us pharmacy and chemists. Drug Stores, in the US, are
supposed to be run by Pharmacists. Do you consider them to be
sorcerers?
Of course in the verse quoted as 20 above the word "hatred" appears
along with "strife" and "seditions". What is it you are posting here?
Those three words seem to reflect the tenor of your posts reasonably
well. Shouldn't you be obeying that injunction as well as following
the Ten Commandments. One in particular springs to mind. I believe it
says something about bearing false witness.
Gregory Perry
> OK. Now show that Freemasonry uses Kabbalah.
"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back to the
Kabaalah. In that ancient philosophy, the Initiate will find the source of
many doctrines." (Morals and Dogma p. 741)
"These [aspects and teachings of Masonry] were practiced from remote ages,
in ancient temples of many nations....The most learned among Masonic
scholars...conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some
aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the
Temple of Solomon, and of the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and
Rome, as well as the basic doctrine of the Essenes, Gnostics and other
mystic Orders." (Texas Monitor)
"Freemasonry today does not see Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior of
the world." (Baptist Study)
"He who desires to attain to the understanding of the Grand Word and the
possession of the Great Secret, ought carefully to read the Hermetic
philosophers, and will undoubtedly attain initiation, as others have done;
but he must take, for the key of their allegories, the single dogma of
Hermes, contained in his table of Emerald, and follow, to class his
acquisitions of knowledge and direct the operation, the order indicated in
the Kabalistic alphabet of the Tarot." (Morals and Dogma p. 777)
In Henry C. Clausen's (past Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite)
book he states in regard to the 28th degree of the Ancient and Accepted
Scottish rite which is called: "The Knight of the Sun": "This is a
Kabalistic and Hermetic Degree of the greatest antiquity, dealing with the
primal matter of all things. The allegory is man in search of truth. It
teaches a philosophic design for a doctrine of natural religion as part of
the mystery." (p. 172)
"Masonry...is the universal, eternal, immutable religion...." Pike
"The religion of Masonry is cosmopolitan, universal...." Albert G. Mackey
Michael Glover - NORWOOD #90 Masonic Spring Workshop 1994: "QADOSH LA YAHWEH
- Holiness to the Lord Good afternoon. Again I am extremely pleased to be
invited to present another paper at the Masonic Spring Workshop. For those
who were present for my paper last year today's paper follows as a logical
continuation of that research. Last year I touched very briefly on the
Kabbalah. I made mention that I understood only the very rudiments of the
Kabbalah and was very unprepared to field any but the most basic inquiries.
Now after another year's research am somewhat more comfortable but still
temper my statements with the preface that I have only scratched the
surface and claim no real competency in regards to the Kaballah..."
The author of "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry," Authur Edward Waite was a
co-creator of the Rider-Waite Tarot deck.
"For if you are a Freemason and you were to research the traditional
Kabbalah and then research the Tarot, you would discover for yourself the
true meanings of the catechisms, allegories and symbolisms taught to you in
your first three degrees. And one thing is certain. There is no question
that the teachings of the Kabbalah predate the institution of Freemasonry!"
(The Tarot and the Templars)
"The two Pillars Jachin and Boaz were originally built by King Solomon to
represent the emanations of God known as Netzach and Hod. The secrets of
Netzach and Hod are found in the ancient Hebrew mysticism known as the
Kaballah." (The Tarot and the Templars)
"We have scarcely touched the hem of the garment of Kabalistic Mysteries.
King Solomon's Seal, or the Seal of Wisdom, like the Hebraic language, is
universal. Out of this sign, as out of the " Word ", come many shades of
meaning, many interpretations~ It is an inexhaustible fountain of
knowledge. The purpose of these all too sketchy paragraphs will have been
accomplished if it will have served to lift, ever so slightly, the veil
which conceals the Wisdom of the Ages."
Gregory Perry
> royal to Queen
>> Elizabeth I and founder of Freemasonry.
>
> Please provide some support for this statement.
> The origins of freemasonry of of great interest to many Masons, so some
> proof of our founder's input will be most welcome.
One of many: http://www.jwmt.org/v1n1/dee.html
Dee was also credited with the origins of the Golden Dawn.
Re: Kabbalah in freemasonry, read prior post for quotes and sources.
Malcolm Tucker
"Gregory Perry" <gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote in message
> >> reigning figure of Protestant occultism, Dr. John Dee, the astrologer
> > royal to Queen
> >> Elizabeth I and founder of Freemasonry.
> >
> > Please provide some support for this statement.
> > The origins of freemasonry of of great interest to many Masons, so
some
> > proof of our founder's input will be most welcome.
>
> One of many: http://www.jwmt.org/v1n1/dee.html
>
> Dee was also credited with the origins of the Golden Dawn.
Thank you for the Link,
However the article nowhere sugguests that John Dee was the founder of
Freemasonry.
It did not even mention Freemasonry at all !?
>
> Re: Kabbalah in freemasonry, read prior post for quotes and sources.
Yes, your quoted from a Albert Pike, who has had zero influence on
Freemasonry.
Read the preface to Pikes book to put his words into context.
In my 23 years as a mason the only place which I have heard of Pike is here
in Alt.fm.
I doubt that any other members in my lodges have ever heard of him.
Can you quote from any creditable scholar about this supposed influence of
Kabbalah in freemasonry
Jim Bennie
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote:
> David Simpson wrote:
> > OK. Now show that Freemasonry uses Kabbalah.
> "Masonry is a search after Light.
<snip>
Yawn. Quoting those dreaded mortals again, I see.
> "Freemasonry today does not see Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior of
> the world." (Baptist Study)
Neither does my radio station. I guess that means it's full of
sorcerers, too. Maybe that's why the ratings are up.
Neb Revod
> Neither does my radio station. I guess that means it's full of
> sorcerers, too. Maybe that's why the ratings are up.
>
OMG, neither does my car.
DEMONIC TOYOTA, I REBUKE YOU!
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>David Simpson wrote:
>
>> OK. Now show that Freemasonry uses Kabbalah.
>
>"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back to the
>Kabaalah. In that ancient philosophy, the Initiate will find the source of
>many doctrines." (Morals and Dogma p. 741)
>
Pike, as you have been told, had some influence on the Scottish Rite
in the Southern Jurisdiction. He had no influence on the rest of
Masonry. He also states that anyone is free to disagree with him and
to reject his ideas. His opinions are just that, his opinions. While
the search *may* lead us to the Kaballah which is the source of many
doctrines ... including, but not limited to, Judaism, Islam and
Christianity.
>"These [aspects and teachings of Masonry] were practiced from remote ages,
>in ancient temples of many nations....The most learned among Masonic
>scholars...conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some
>aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the
>Temple of Solomon, and of the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and
>Rome, as well as the basic doctrine of the Essenes, Gnostics and other
>mystic Orders." (Texas Monitor)
>
While a lot of Freemasons would like to claim that sort of thing as
being the truth the Craft can only claim its existence as being from
1717 in its present form. There are some documents which pre-exist
that time most notably in Scotland. Other than that there is no proof
of any primal connection other than the fact that some symbols may
appear to coincide. The meaning attributed to those symbols is usually
quite different.
>"Freemasonry today does not see Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior of
>the world." (Baptist Study)
>
Freemasonry does not preach or espouse any religion at all. I'm sure
that those Freemasons who are Christian do see Jesus as the unique Son
of God and Saviour of the world. Those who are not Christian would not
of course. Freemasonry as an order does not have any opinion one way
or another.
>"He who desires to attain to the understanding of the Grand Word and the
>possession of the Great Secret, ought carefully to read the Hermetic
>philosophers, and will undoubtedly attain initiation, as others have done;
>but he must take, for the key of their allegories, the single dogma of
>Hermes, contained in his table of Emerald, and follow, to class his
>acquisitions of knowledge and direct the operation, the order indicated in
>the Kabalistic alphabet of the Tarot." (Morals and Dogma p. 777)
>
>In Henry C. Clausen's (past Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite)
>book he states in regard to the 28th degree of the Ancient and Accepted
>Scottish rite which is called: "The Knight of the Sun": "This is a
>Kabalistic and Hermetic Degree of the greatest antiquity, dealing with the
>primal matter of all things. The allegory is man in search of truth. It
>teaches a philosophic design for a doctrine of natural religion as part of
>the mystery." (p. 172)
>
>"Masonry...is the universal, eternal, immutable religion...." Pike
>
Pike, as with anyone was entitled to his opinion. He did, however have
very little do to with Freemasonry as his focus was almost entirely on
the AASR.
>"The religion of Masonry is cosmopolitan, universal...." Albert G. Mackey
>
Correct. It does not actually specify any religion just that members
should have a religion before they join. Freemasonry does not seek to
change any member's beliefs.
>Michael Glover - NORWOOD #90 Masonic Spring Workshop 1994: "QADOSH LA YAHWEH
>- Holiness to the Lord Good afternoon. Again I am extremely pleased to be
>invited to present another paper at the Masonic Spring Workshop. For those
>who were present for my paper last year today's paper follows as a logical
>continuation of that research. Last year I touched very briefly on the
>Kabbalah. I made mention that I understood only the very rudiments of the
>Kabbalah and was very unprepared to field any but the most basic inquiries.
>Now after another year's research am somewhat more comfortable but still
>temper my statements with the preface that I have only scratched the
>surface and claim no real competency in regards to the Kaballah..."
>
"no real competency in regards to the Kaballah..." would surely imply
the Kaballah is not a prime focus in Freemasonry. More evidence that
your informants are wrong.
>The author of "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry," Authur Edward Waite was a
>co-creator of the Rider-Waite Tarot deck.
>
Which show that Freemasons may have many interests. Big deal;.
>"For if you are a Freemason and you were to research the traditional
>Kabbalah and then research the Tarot, you would discover for yourself the
>true meanings of the catechisms, allegories and symbolisms taught to you in
>your first three degrees. And one thing is certain. There is no question
>that the teachings of the Kabbalah predate the institution of Freemasonry!"
>(The Tarot and the Templars)
>
Absolutely true. The second word in that quote is "if". Remember that.
Of course the Kaballah must predate the institution of Freemasonry,
... by several thousand years I believe.
>"The two Pillars Jachin and Boaz were originally built by King Solomon to
>represent the emanations of God known as Netzach and Hod. The secrets of
>Netzach and Hod are found in the ancient Hebrew mysticism known as the
>Kaballah." (The Tarot and the Templars)
>
No idea who wrote that book but it sounds like a good fiction story.
Of course the names of the pillars are mentioned in the bible, yet you
claimed that the bible had nothing to do with the Kaballah.
>"We have scarcely touched the hem of the garment of Kabalistic Mysteries.
>King Solomon's Seal, or the Seal of Wisdom, like the Hebraic language, is
>universal. Out of this sign, as out of the " Word ", come many shades of
>meaning, many interpretations~ It is an inexhaustible fountain of
>knowledge. The purpose of these all too sketchy paragraphs will have been
>accomplished if it will have served to lift, ever so slightly, the veil
>which conceals the Wisdom of the Ages."
I have no idea from where this quote may have come. I have never seen
it before.
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>Dee was also credited with the origins of the Golden Dawn.
Which also has nothing to do with the fraternity of Freemasonry - very
much like your posts!
Gregory Perry
> doctrines ... including, but not limited to, Judaism, Islam and
> Christianity.
(!!!)
Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity. That
statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
fraternity.
>>"These [aspects and teachings of Masonry] were practiced from remote ages,
>>in ancient temples of many nations....The most learned among Masonic
>>scholars...conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in
>>some aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries
>>of the Temple of Solomon, and of the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt,
>>Greece, and Rome, as well as the basic doctrine of the Essenes, Gnostics
>>and other mystic Orders." (Texas Monitor)
>>
> While a lot of Freemasons would like to claim that sort of thing as
> being the truth the Craft can only claim its existence as being from
> 1717 in its present form. There are some documents which pre-exist
> that time most notably in Scotland. Other than that there is no proof
> of any primal connection other than the fact that some symbols may
> appear to coincide. The meaning attributed to those symbols is usually
> quite different.
1717 was the year freemasonry split into different factions. Its roots are
much older, and I am just repeating words from your sages, your adepts,
your scholars - you can't praise them on one hand, then say their credo is
bullshit once someone asks a simple question about the origins of the
lodge. There are hundreds of overt references to kabbalah being
intertwined with the lodge, and kaballah has been proven to be sorcery.
Sorcery is not compatible with Christianity, and if you consider yourself a
Christian and a Mason, you've got some splainin' to do on payday.
Not to mention the fact that freemasonry, like judaism, advocates lying to
and deceiving the lower degrees/gentiles, so pretty much anything you say
should be considered suspect - I'm goyim.
As for the rest of the quotes and commentary, it makes no point to beat a
dead horse. End of thread for me.
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity.
Actually, Kaballah has a LOT to do with Jesus' education, but it has
nothing to do with the fraternity of Freemasonry.
>That
>statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
>fraternity.
That explains a lot.
So, you have no intention of actually learning anything about Masonry.
What are you doing here?
>Not to mention the fact that freemasonry, like judaism, advocates lying to
>and deceiving the lower degrees/gentiles, so pretty much anything you say
>should be considered suspect - I'm goyim.
As one of our former regulars used to say:
Scratch an anti, expose a bigot.
>As for the rest of the quotes and commentary, it makes no point to beat a
>dead horse. End of thread for me.
Have a nice whatever.
David Simpson
<spammer...@spamcop.net> typed furiously:
I own a YOTA. It no longer goes to.
Tom Accuosti
news:r7f4ovo3bebk5hgm4...@4ax.com
| On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:02:07 -0700, Neb Revod
| <spammer...@spamcop.net> typed furiously:
|
|| In article <bls71d$60$1...@vcn.bc.ca>, jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca says...
||
||| Neither does my radio station. I guess that means it's full of
||| sorcerers, too. Maybe that's why the ratings are up.
|||
||
|| OMG, neither does my car.
||
|| DEMONIC TOYOTA, I REBUKE YOU!
|
| I own a YOTA. It no longer goes to.
I used to own YODA. I had to "force" it to go, espcially in the winter.
--
Tom Accuosti
Friendship #33 AF&AM
Southington, CT
http://www.megahits.com/friendship33
(Sign our Guestbook!)
Joe Steve Swick III
I preface my comments by stating that my opinions are my own, and don't
necessarily reflect those of the Lodge or any other Freemason besides
myself. Buckle up, here we go! -- jsw
__Gregory Perry___
The so-called goddess mythos you speak of is an absolute abomination to
Yahweh/Jehova, and predated Christianity
-----
Now, these goddess myths I've spoken of commonly teach that the god (e.g.
Osiris) impregnated a sometimes mortal woman (e.g. Isis), and was born as
his own son (e.g., Horus) -- making the woman both the consort of the god
and the god's mother. Of course, Christianity does not partake in any way,
shape or form of this mythos, which you have identified as "an absolute
abomination." Right? ;-)
Furthermore, my point was that the Bible is fairly clear that goddess
worship was an artifact of Patriarchal worship, and that Abraham himself was
such a worshipper. Such practices were curtailed by Moses; nevertheless,
they more or less continued as a regular part of Israelite worship for many
hundreds of years. And, my final remark is that this has little to nothing
to do with Freemasonry.
__Gregory Perry___
The so-called goddess mythos ... [may be found in] traditions such as
Zoroaster/Zarathushtra, Mithraism, and a host of other systems that
freemasonry borrows from.
-----
That's an interesting theory, Gregory. Unfortunately, it is an assumption
which you fail to suppor with any facts in evidence.
__Gregory Perry___
In short, a matriarchal v. patriarchal form of worship that is now making
the rounds in the form of "New Age" philosophy, Theosophy, and kaballah
worship, to name a few.
-----
"Kabbalah worship"? Kabbalah means "that which is received" -- i.e., the
Jewish oral tradition. It is fundamentally a Jewish mystical and
philosophical stream, which makes use of certain meditative and prophetic
techniques described in the Bible. So far as I know, no one "worships
Kabbalah" -- rather, they worship God, and use contemplative and prophetic
techniques to deepen their sense of union with the Divine.
During the middle ages, Christian scholars were astounded by how closely
Kabbalistic teaching followed the teaching of Jesus/Christianity (as found,
for instance, in the Gospel of John), and they used these similarities to
attempt to convert Jews. Eventually, Christian exposure to this tradition
gave rise to a Christian "Cabalah" which still strongly influences Christian
mystical schools of thought.
__Gregory Perry___
[Kabbalah] was a perversion of the original tree of life, and as any student
of the bible can plainly see was considered blasephemy by Jehovah.
-----
Kabbalah was considered "blasphemy" by God? Really? What specific part of it
does God declare to be "blasphemous"? Please carefully cite your sources for
both the practice and the Divine disapproval. What do you mean when you say
that Kabbalah is a "perversion of the original Tree of Life"?
___Gregory Perry___
Catholicism (especially post-Vatican II) also borrows heavily from such
symbology, as Roman Catholicism was itself an attempted hybrid of the
goddess mythos and Christianity.
-----
Now, no weasling out of this, Gregory. I was very careful to NOT imply that
all Christians believed in the Catholic teaching of Mary as Theotokos.
Rather, I focused on the teachings nearly EVERY Christian believes:
Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?
Do you believe that this virgin consorted with the God, and that this was
how she became pregnant?
Do you believe that the child she bore was in fact the very God of Heaven,
incarnate?
If you answer these questions in the affirmative, then you accept a central
aspect of pagan goddess worship, dress it up however you might like. Now, I
happen to be a Christian, and I would answer the three questions above in
the affirmative. My point is that, even if "goddess religion" had some
connection with Freemasonry (and I suggest to you that it does not), I'd be
careful not to be the pot calling the kettle black, eh.
___Gregory Perry___
Kaballah [sic] worship has no place with Christianity, and advocates the use
of black magic,
----
Kabbalah advocates the use of black magic? Where? Please cite your source.
___Gregory Perry___
[Kabbalah advocates the use of] incantations,
----
You mean, prayers?
___Gregory Perry___
[Kabbalah advocates the use of] amulets,
-----
You mean, sacred relics -- like anointing oil, prayer handkerchiefs, the
wearing of the cross as jewelry, etc? The truth of the matter is, such items
have played a part in normative Christianity for most of its history. I have
in front of me a copy of Marvin Meyer and Richard Smith, ed., _Ancient
Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power_. This book makes the point
that regular Christians frequently made use of Christian amulets, rituals,
prayers, clothing and the like, and that these were considered a regular
part of their religion.
You can see this book right here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691004587/
Where did early Christians get such ideas? Perhaps from Jesus himself. For
as Morton Smith might have argued in his book Jesus the Magician, one man's
miracle is another man's magic:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1569751552/
___Gregory Perry___
[Kabbalah advocates the use of] occult symbology that is in direct conflict
with the bible
----
What "occult symbology" does the Kabbalah advocate, Gregory? Christians have
long made use of scores of various symbols -- some of them rooted in the
text of the Bible, some not. The meaning of these symbols are of course
"occult" -- i.e., hidden-- to those who do not know what they mean. I'd
point out that numerous of Jesus' parables have an "occult" meaning, as
Jesus himself states.
___Gregory Perry___
- which is no wonder why the adoption of kaballastic magic and study is
sweeping the nation, especially hollywood -
----
Frankly, "magic" is just a nasty name for religious practices you don't
like. Christianity looks like magic to a great many folks. As for what is
"sweeping the nation" -- I'd question whether that is really "Kabbalah" or
whether its just a fad. The truth of the matter is, strict dedication to
religious fundamentals is central to the study of authentic Kabbalah (as
well as Cabbalah). If a person lacks this, then perhaps you should question
whether he or she is really a Kabbalist.
___Gregory Perry___
madonna is into it (and mentioned how "wonderful" her newfound worship of
kaballah was at an interview about her children's book last month), and a
list of other silver screen luminaries such as Roseanne Barr, Sandra
Bernhard and Elizabeth Taylor, the list goes on and on.
-----
See above. I'd only mention that neither Madonna, nor Roseanne Barr, nor
Sandra Bernhard nor Elizabeth Taylor are Freemasons. Whether they are
Kabbalists is anybody's guess, but I'd guess not -- and I'd further guess
that Freemasonry isn't Kabbalah.
___Gregory Perry___
What you guys don't understand is that by promoting the so-called babylonian
mystery religions ("mystery babylon" in end-speak), you are helping usher in
the END, the study of which has been obfuscated and confused to the point of
ridicule - "you actually believe THAT bullshit? That's silly, lets go watch
Fox News."
-----
What you apparently don't understand is that this has nothing whatsoever to
do with Freemasonry.
___Gregory Perry___
And YOU guys, with your self described matriarchal extension of judaism,
----
Since you say this is self-described, I'd like you to show us where,
Gregory. I know of no Freemason who declares Masonry to be a "matriarchal
extension of Judaism."
___Gregory Perry___
[You guys] fall for it hook line and sinker. And so does everyone else that
you've polluted with the message.
-----
Polluted with what message?
___Gregory Perry___
You've distracted them from the TRUTH, which is a line by line
interpretation of the bible, it's not hard to do and a child can figure it
out, as long as he or she isn't occupied with some mystery babylon garbage
that's as old as the planet.
-----
The principles of Freemasonry are Brotherly Love, Relief, Truth, Temperence,
Fortitude, Prudence, and Justice. Perhaps in your considered religious view,
these principles are "pollution" and "garbage"? If you find these principles
distract you from your personal religious obligation, then feel free to just
keep walkin' Gregory. We promise not to stop you! :-P
Kindest,
Joe Swick
Heretic
Joe Steve Swick III
Does Kaballah advocate the use of black magic? I think your ignorance is
showing.
___Gregory Perry___
Christian Kabbalists led by Pico della Mirandola, 'No science can better
convince us of the divinity of Christ than magic and Kabbalah'
-----
Actually, Mirandola is a respected Renaissance Christian philosopher, who
continues to be read today:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/REN/PICO.HTM
That he believed that both magic and Kabbalah could convince one of the
divinity of Christ hardly makes him a "sorcerer" or a "black magician" as
you aver.
___Gregory Perry___
Franciscan monk Francesco Giorgi's 1525 tribute to the Zohar, "De Harmonia
mundi" and Cornelius Agrippa's "De Occulta Philosophia" circa 1531,
-----
So, you suggest that Francesco Giorgi and Cornelius Agrippa were
sorcerers/black magicians? LOL.
___Gregory Perry___
resulting in 1564 occult masterwork "Monas hieroglyphica", reigning figure
of Protestant occultism, Dr. John Dee, the astrologer royal to Queen
Elizabeth I and founder of Freemasonry.
----
It is true that John Dee was astrologer to Queen Elizabeth. Then again, the
Prophet Daniel was the astrologer to King Nebuchadnezzar, and was honored
with the title, "rab chartomia," which literally means "Chief of the
Astrologers," and is rendered "Master of the Magicans" in the KJV of the
Bible (Daniel 4:9; 5:11). While there is a technical distinction between the
two, in point of fact, both such individuals might serve in the Royal Court,
and the word CHARTOM could be used generally to describe one possessed of
occult knowledge -- i.e., diviners, astrologers, magicians, and so forth.
I'd love to see your evidence that Dee was the "founder of Freemasonry." I
strongly suspect you won't be able to demonstrate this by any evidence
whatsoever.
___Gregory Perry___
<snip egregious misreading and misrepresentation of the Talmud>
Rabbi Isaac Luria, Kabbalistic sage, "after tikkun was accomplished the
spirit of Cain would prevail on earth" - didn't Cain murder his brother,
Abel? What's that Tubal Cain thing freemasonry talks about?
-----
Cain and Tubal Cain are two entirely different individuals, Gregory. Maybe
you should re-read your Bible.
___Gregory Perry___
Sefer Yetzirah - fortune telling, numerology, astrology as ways to contact
DEMONS.
-----
The Sefer Yetzirah does not discuss "contacting demons." It also is not a
text for divination.
___Gregory Perry___
Sefer Yetzira's modern publisher, "...aids the development of telekinetic
and telepathic powers. These powers were meant to help initiates perform
feats that outwardly appeared magical. The magical kabbalah...uses various
signs, incantations...by which initiates could influence or alter natural
events."
----
Have you ever READ the Sefer Yetzirah, Gregory? It is largely a philosophica
work -- I don't believe that it once discusses "the development of
telekinetic and telepathic powers." And, I daresay there is a vast
difference between what is here called "the magical kabbalah" and what most
Jewish and Christian mystics do.
<snip large amounts of nonsense about Kabbalah as black magic>
___David Simpson___
You are trying hard to distract us with lies. Freemasonry does not occupy
itself with anything about Babylon at all. Babylon is not mentioned in the
Ceremonies and Ritual of a Freemason's Lodge. ... Well not in my
jurisdiction anyway.
___Gregory Perry___
Refute the arguments then with citations, quotes, and research, none of
your mortal opinions.
-----
It is not necessary to prove a negative. It is sufficient to knock down your
silly assertions. If you claim there is a connection between Freemasonry and
"Black Magic" or the Kabbalah, the burden lies upon you to make your case
with evidence and facts. As it is, you have not, in my opinon, reasonably
demonstrated the likelihood of your very wild claim.
___Gregory Perry___
Kaballah and Babylonian Talmud == sorcery.
-----
The Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli) is called this because of where it was
compiled, not because of its contents, which you have so egregiously
misrepresented on this forum. Furthermore, Kabbalah is not sorcery -- it is
primarily philosophy, and contains meditative and prophetic practices which
are indicated in the Bible.
___Gregory Perry___
Sorcery is not compatible with the bible & Christianity.
Gal. 5:19-20
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
fornications, uncleaness, lasciviousness," 20 "Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred,
variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies," witchcraft =
sorcery. Gr. "pharmakeia", or Gr. "pharmakon"
-----
Perhaps you would be benefitted by reviewing your definition of terms a bit
more closely. What is "pharmakeia"? To what specific practice does it
allude? Isn't it where we get the English word PHARMACOLOGY? Perhaps this
passage is meant to say Christians shouldn't take modern medicines? LOL.
I would be quite interested to see what "pharmakeia" really is, and how this
does or does not relate to Mirandola, Dee, the Babylonian Talmud, etc. etc.
I have a feeling you are stretching this word to mean something it was never
intended to mean.
JSW
Jim Bennie
<br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:52:33 GMT, Gregory Perry
> <gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
> >Dee was also credited with the origins of the Golden Dawn.
> Which also has nothing to do with the fraternity of Freemasonry - very
> much like your posts!
And the Soviets used to credit themselves with a whole pile of things,
like inventing the telephone.
I think it's pretty well documented who formed the Golden Dawn in the
late 19th century. I doubt John Dee was around then.
Jim Bennie
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> wrote:
> 1717 was the year freemasonry split into different factions.
Poppycock. Anyone who has done the least modicum of research knows
full well this is when four Lodges in London, England, got together
and decided they'd like to meet every three months, and have an annual
feast. And they picked a GM to be in charge.
> Its roots are
> much older, and I am just repeating words from your sages, your adepts,
> your scholars - you can't praise them on one hand, then say their credo is
> bullshit once someone asks a simple question about the origins of the
> lodge.
> There are hundreds of overt references to kabbalah being
> intertwined with the lodge, and kaballah has been proven to be sorcery.
More poppycock. Quote from the lodge ritual where it states anything
about kaballah. Not a bunch of easily-manipulated opinions of long-dead
"mortals" on some web page.
> Sorcery is not compatible with Christianity, and if you consider yourself a
> Christian and a Mason, you've got some splainin' to do on payday.
Wow! Ricky Ricardo's on this very newsgroup. And all this time, with
the "mortal" talk, I thought you were Agnes Moorehead.
> Not to mention the fact that freemasonry, like judaism, advocates lying to
> and deceiving the lower degrees/gentiles,
Careful. There was some sage adept who said "Scratch an anti-Mason and
find an anti-Semite".
Why don't you quote from the Masonic ceremonies where members are used
to be "good men and true" because "truth is a divine attribute"? Doesn't
sound like "lying to the lower degrees", does it? As such doesn't happen,
it's not a surprise.
> so pretty much anything you say should be considered suspect
"My mind's made up; don't confuse me with the facts." I can't say I'm
surprised.
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>> the search *may* lead us to the Kaballah which is the source of many
>> doctrines ... including, but not limited to, Judaism, Islam and
>> Christianity.
>
>(!!!)
>
>Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity. That
>statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
>fraternity.
>
Would you agree that Christianity took its rise from Judaism? You
would have to say yes, since Jesus and all the Disciples were Jews.
This means that Kaballah, a Jewish tradition and method of study, has
everything to do with the creation of both Islam and Christianity
since they are both offshoots of Christianity.
>>>"These [aspects and teachings of Masonry] were practiced from remote ages,
>>>in ancient temples of many nations....The most learned among Masonic
>>>scholars...conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in
>>>some aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries
>>>of the Temple of Solomon, and of the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt,
>>>Greece, and Rome, as well as the basic doctrine of the Essenes, Gnostics
>>>and other mystic Orders." (Texas Monitor)
>>>
>> While a lot of Freemasons would like to claim that sort of thing as
>> being the truth the Craft can only claim its existence as being from
>> 1717 in its present form. There are some documents which pre-exist
>> that time most notably in Scotland. Other than that there is no proof
>> of any primal connection other than the fact that some symbols may
>> appear to coincide. The meaning attributed to those symbols is usually
>> quite different.
>
>1717 was the year freemasonry split into different factions.
Correction. 1717 was the year that the first recorded Grand Lodge was
formed. The split into the Moderns and Ancients came later.
>Its roots are
>much older, and I am just repeating words from your sages, your adepts,
>your scholars - you can't praise them on one hand, then say their credo is
>bullshit once someone asks a simple question about the origins of the
>lodge. There are hundreds of overt references to kabbalah being
>intertwined with the lodge, and kaballah has been proven to be sorcery.
>
The point we are making is that most Freemasons have never heard of
Pike, let alone praising him. Other authors can only write their
opinions. Opinions are not binding on any Freemason who is free to
disagree.
In your religious institution are you free to disagree with a decision
by your Pastor?
>Sorcery is not compatible with Christianity, and if you consider yourself a
>Christian and a Mason, you've got some splainin' to do on payday.
>
Why? As I, and many others, have stated many times there is nothing
incompatible with Christianity in Freemasonry.
Sorcery is not practised by any person or Freemason I have met.
I have been there. I know. You have not been there. You can not know.
>Not to mention the fact that freemasonry, like judaism, advocates lying to
>and deceiving the lower degrees/gentiles, so pretty much anything you say
>should be considered suspect - I'm goyim.
>
Who cares whether you are goyish or not? Freemasonry does NOT espouse
or promote any religion. Freemasonry especially promotes truthfulness
to all persons. It is one of our guiding principles.
>As for the rest of the quotes and commentary, it makes no point to beat a
>dead horse. End of thread for me.
Perhaps there is a God.
David Simpson
<tacc...@earthlink.net> typed furiously:
>"David Simpson" <faro...@picknowl.com.au> wrote in message
>news:r7f4ovo3bebk5hgm4...@4ax.com
>| On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:02:07 -0700, Neb Revod
>| <spammer...@spamcop.net> typed furiously:
>|
>|| In article <bls71d$60$1...@vcn.bc.ca>, jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca says...
>||
>||| Neither does my radio station. I guess that means it's full of
>||| sorcerers, too. Maybe that's why the ratings are up.
>|||
>||
>|| OMG, neither does my car.
>||
>|| DEMONIC TOYOTA, I REBUKE YOU!
>|
>| I own a YOTA. It no longer goes to.
>
>I used to own YODA. I had to "force" it to go, espcially in the winter.
Ah! but on mine the sign on the boot (trunk) actually says "yota"
David Simpson
<faro...@picknowl.com.au> typed furiously:
>On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:37:25 GMT, Gregory Perry
><gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>
>>> the search *may* lead us to the Kaballah which is the source of many
>>> doctrines ... including, but not limited to, Judaism, Islam and
>>> Christianity.
>>
>>(!!!)
>>
>>Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity. That
>>statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
>>fraternity.
>>
>Would you agree that Christianity took its rise from Judaism? You
>would have to say yes, since Jesus and all the Disciples were Jews.
>This means that Kaballah, a Jewish tradition and method of study, has
>everything to do with the creation of both Islam and Christianity
>since they are both offshoots of Christianity.
>
I apologise. That last phrase should have read "since they are both
offshoots of Judaism."
Joe Steve Swick III
OK. Now show that Freemasonry uses Kabbalah.
___Gregory Perry___
"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back to the
Kabaalah. In that ancient philosophy, the Initiate will find the source of
many doctrines." (Morals and Dogma p. 741)
----
Yes... but Pike here merely speaks of Kabbalah as a philosophical system
worthy of investigation. As I recall, he says something quite similar about
nearly every other religious tradition within the covers of Morals and
Dogma. Perhaps that is because Morals and Dogma is a textbook of
comparative religion and philosophy. Duh.
Pike's comments are no indication that Freemasonry uses Kabbalah, any more
than his comments regarding Hinduism are an indication that Freemasonry uses
THAT tradition.
___Gregory Perry___
"These [aspects and teachings of Masonry] were practiced from remote ages,
in ancient temples of many nations....The most learned among Masonic
scholars...conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some
aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the
Temple of Solomon, and of the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and
Rome, as well as the basic doctrine of the Essenes, Gnostics and other
mystic Orders." (Texas Monitor)
-----
Yes. That is the LEGENDARY history of the Craft. It is included in the
ritual primarily for its ALLEGORICAL significance, as the "most learned
among Masonic scholars" can tell you.
___Gregory Perry___
"Freemasonry today does not see Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior
of the world." (Baptist Study)
-----
Of course not! Neither do the Boy Scouts, but I don't see the Baptists
making a study and whining about THEM.
<snip remainder of various interesting but largely irreleent personal
opinions>
Cheers,
JSW
Joe Steve Swick III
> >||
> >|| DEMONIC TOYOTA, I REBUKE YOU!
> >|
> >| I own a YOTA. It no longer goes to.
> >
> >I used to own YODA. I had to "force" it to go, espcially in the winter.
>
> Ah! but on mine the sign on the boot (trunk) actually says "yota"
I've seen many that are reduced to just plain YO.
Obviously, this is shorthand for "Ygdrasillian Order" -- firsthand evidence
that those Japanese auto manufacturers are in league with NEO-PAGANS.
Sorcery! Sorcery! Ahhhhhh! They probably study Kabbalah, too.
<cough>
Kindest,
Joe Swick
+++ +++++ +++++++
VISIT the final resting place of all good Illuminati/ Alien/ Cthulhu/
Mormon/ Freemason/ K of C/ World Domination conspiracies and rants!
Protection from the MOJO! FNORD
http://home.pacifier.com/~dkossy/kooksmus.html
Joe Steve Swick III
"The two Pillars Jachin and Boaz were originally built by King Solomon to
represent the emanations of God known as Netzach and Hod. The secrets of
Netzach and Hod are found in the ancient Hebrew mysticism known as the
Kaballah." (The Tarot and the Templars)
___David Simpson___
No idea who wrote that book but it sounds like a good fiction story. Of
course the names of the pillars are mentioned in the bible, yet you claimed
that the bible had nothing to do with the Kaballah.
----
More than this: the name of EVERY ONE of the Kabbalistic spheres (Mr.
Perry's "emanations of God") including NETZACH and HOD are "mentioned in the
Bible." In fact, 7 of them are mentioned in ONE VERSE!
<play appropriate 1950's sci-fi woo-woo music in the background>
For goodness' sake. Kabbalah is largely a religious and philosophical
tradition. It is comprised of meditative techniques described in the Bible,
as well as a set of exegetical tools for understanding the significance of
the Biblical narrative. If parts of it seem "magical," perhaps that has more
to do with the fact that it originates quite some time before the advent of
the modern scientific method.
In fact, to one who accepts that method fully, MOST RELIGION looks
remarkably like "magic" in the pejorative sense of the word. If you doubt
this, just go pick up a copy of Carl Sagan's classic, _The Demon-Haunted
World_." In fact, given your preoccupation with sorcery, Mr. Perry, you
should probably read this book anyway. Perhaps it will act as a kind of
spiritual laxative for whatever it is that has you all bound up.
Cheers,
Joe Swick
Heretic
Joe Steve Swick III
Not to mention the fact that freemasonry, like judaism, advocates lying to
and deceiving the lower degrees/gentiles, so pretty much anything you say
should be considered suspect - I'm goyim.
___Brother Gene___
As one of our former regulars used to say: Scratch an anti, expose a
bigot.
----
Mr. Perry is apparently an "Identity Christian." I will refrain from
commenting on what "identity" that is, but I think your own quote sums
things up nicely, Gene.
Kindest,
JSW
Joe Steve Swick III
Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity. That
statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
fraternity.
___David Simpson___
Would you agree that Christianity took its rise from Judaism? You would
have to say yes, since Jesus and all the Disciples were Jews. This means
that Kaballah, a Jewish tradition and method of study, has everything to do
with the creation of both Islam and Christianity
-----
Indeed. As is masterfully argued by Alan F. Segal in his book, Paul the
Convert:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300052278/
One of the things this book is criticized for is its digression into
details. However, those details are quite fascinating, and tend to
demonstrate Paul's connection with the tradition that would later become
known as MERKABAH MYSTICISM -- i.e., the Kabbalah. Oops!
___Mr. Perry___
Sorcery is not compatible with Christianity, and if you consider yourself a
Christian and a Mason, you've got some splainin' to do on payday.
-----
I don't believe that Mr. Perry has defined just what practices he considers
to be "sorcery," nor has he demonstrated that men, *acting as Freemasons*,
engage in such practices.
___David Simpson___
Sorcery is not practised by any person or Freemason I have met.
----
He's probably going to use a nice circular argument like this: "Sorcery is
what you Freemasons do!"
LOL.
___David Simpson___
Perhaps there is a God.
----
On THAT you can rely, David.
JSW
Joe Steve Swick III
Except when someone challenges the authority and/or principles of the lodge,
they get ruined. Personally, in business, financially, every aspect of
their life dumped into the largest intelligence entity on the face of the
planet, the hidden hand's agenda of vindication.
___Jim Bennie___
Frankly, I'm trying to figure out his, er, cryptic, reference to "the
largest intelligence entity of the face of the planet", whatever that's
supposed to be.
----
Since the Patriot Act was passed into law, it refers to the U.S. Government,
which has thereby given itself the right to spy on anything it damned well
pleases, including Mr. Gregory's bank account, internet conversations, and
brand of toilet paper.
In response, what does Mr. Perry do? Why, quite logically, he posts to
ALT.FREEMASONRY, where he obsessively complains about Masonic intelligence
gathering.
My suggestion is that you borrow a nickel and buy a clue, Mr. Perry. If you
are worried about big, scary, intelligence agencies, you need look no
further than your own government. If you'd like to make a difference in the
world, I would suggest to you taht THERE is the place to start.
As for Freemasons -- we are not sorcerers, or witches, or the devil in
disguise. We are just a fraternal group, Mr. Perry. The principles we
espouse are Brotherly Love, Relief, Truth, Prudence, Temperence, Fortitude,
and Justice. If Freemasons carry any "magic" at all, it is merely that which
is found vouchsafed in these principles. Those who live by the same
understand just how that "magic" works.
Sincerely,
Joe Swick
Joe Steve Swick III
That fact in itself begs explanation - what then, exactly, does the lodge
seek to protect? Is it simply a culture of secrecy, or are there other
parts of freemasonry, business meanderings, hidden agendas, etc and
otherwise, that the masonic culture protects? <snip>
___Brother Hickey___
A few years ago, my Lodge became aware of the situation of a local elderly
gentleman <snip> Now, I could easily have published the details of what we
did in the local newspaper, and bought us a little free publicity at the
expense of the old man's pride and dignity; I could easily give you the old
man's name right here, right now.
But I won't. It's a secret. NO ONE outside the Lodge needs to know....
Want another example? A 10-year-old little girl in my foster daughter's
class at school needs glasses -- she's severely nearsighted. Her (single)
mother can't afford the glasses. I brought the problem to the Lodge, and
we made the appointment at Lenscrafters. The optometrist is preparing the
glasses right now ... they may be ready tonight. The little lady will have
glasses on her face at school on Monday. Should I tell you her name, and her
mother's? Should I publicize it? Maybe we should let all her little friends
know that this little girl needed a helping hand, and embarrass her ...
Better all around to keep it a secret, isn't it?
-----
God bless Masonry -- and God BLESS the secrets it keeps!
Matthew 6:2-4, 25:34-40!
Joe Swick
Gregory Perry
> Cain and Tubal Cain are two entirely different individuals, Gregory. Maybe
> you should re-read your Bible.
Tubal Cain was a descendant of Cain. Literally translates as "Flows from
Cain". Progeny of Cain. Kenite.
John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires
of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in
the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he
speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
(Deleted large portions of commentary from both sides) - I've given you
quotes from reputable sources within the fields of Talmud and Kaballah
inspired mysticism, you've responded with personal opinion.
> The Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli) is called this because of where it
> was compiled, not because of its contents, which you have so egregiously
> misrepresented on this forum. Furthermore, Kabbalah is not sorcery -- it
> is primarily philosophy, and contains meditative and prophetic practices
> which are indicated in the Bible.
Nothing has been misrepresented. I can spew quotes from the Talmud all day
long, to which you would respond with opinion. In terms of Christianity,
the Talmud advocates absolute hatred and bigotry towards Jesus Christ and
Christians. It also teaches hatred towards those not of the judaic faith
and ilk.
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Sanhedrin 106a. Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of
princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."
Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not pay a gentile the wages owed him for work.
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a gentile there will be no death penalty.
What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Direct quotes from the Talmud. Why do you "enlighten" me about those
passages? Hurry up and label me anti-semitic while you're at it.
Of all of the world religions, judaism is about the only one in diametric
opposition to Christianity.
> Perhaps you would be benefitted by reviewing your definition of terms a
> bit more closely. What is "pharmakeia"? To what specific practice does it
> allude? Isn't it where we get the English word PHARMACOLOGY? Perhaps this
> passage is meant to say Christians shouldn't take modern medicines? LOL.
The root 'pharmakeia' refers to potions and concoctions used in conjunction
with witchcraft, for the summoning and manipulation of spiritual entities
and so-called lesser gods.
The modern day equivalent of 'gaslighting', or slipping something into an
associate's beverage in order to confuse, bewilder, or exert influence and
control over.
Jim Bennie
<faro...@picknowl.com.au> wrote:
> Correction. 1717 was the year that the first recorded Grand Lodge was
> formed. The split into the Moderns and Ancients came later.
Sadler showed well over 100 years ago there was no "split". Not one
of the lodges which formed the Ancient GL was involved with the
original GL. And of the original Masons of the first five Ancient lodges,
none were ever registered on the roll of the original GL. They were
either Irishmen or Masons made in Ireland.
> In your religious institution are you free to disagree with a decision
> by your Pastor?
Provided he has one, and isn't a one-man "I've got it all figured out
and no one else has" religion. Not that we've seen *that* before.
Hmm. I remarked to Ed King once that you strip away everything, and
these anti-Masonic arguements always boil down to some Messianic
End Times message. Can I call them or what?
Speaking of Ed, I believe somewhere on his site there's mention of
the "Identity" movement referred to in one of the threads.
> Sorcery is not practised by any person or Freemason I have met.
I once went into a bar and made cash turn into a beer. Is that
sorcery? No, wait. The beer was golden colour, so it must have been
alchemy.
> I have been there. I know. You have not been there. You can not know.
> Perhaps there is a God.
That's a topic for another time and place :)
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
>
>> Cain and Tubal Cain are two entirely different individuals, Gregory. Maybe
>> you should re-read your Bible.
>
>Tubal Cain was a descendant of Cain. Literally translates as "Flows from
>Cain". Progeny of Cain. Kenite.
>
>John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires
>of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in
>the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he
>speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
>
>(Deleted large portions of commentary from both sides) - I've given you
>quotes from reputable sources within the fields of Talmud and Kaballah
>inspired mysticism, you've responded with personal opinion.
>
>> The Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli) is called this because of where it
>> was compiled, not because of its contents, which you have so egregiously
>> misrepresented on this forum. Furthermore, Kabbalah is not sorcery -- it
>> is primarily philosophy, and contains meditative and prophetic practices
>> which are indicated in the Bible.
>
>Nothing has been misrepresented. I can spew quotes from the Talmud all day
>long, to which you would respond with opinion. In terms of Christianity,
>the Talmud advocates absolute hatred and bigotry towards Jesus Christ and
>Christians. It also teaches hatred towards those not of the judaic faith
>and ilk.
>
"spew" is the operative word in this sentence.
>Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
>Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
>Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
>Sanhedrin 106a. Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of
>princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."
>Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not pay a gentile the wages owed him for work.
>Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a gentile there will be no death penalty.
>What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
>
>Direct quotes from the Talmud. Why do you "enlighten" me about those
>passages? Hurry up and label me anti-semitic while you're at it.
>
Are you trying to claim that you are not anti-semitic?
>Of all of the world religions, judaism is about the only one in diametric
>opposition to Christianity.
>
You are trying to claim that Jesus, a jew, was diametrically opposed
to Christianity, the religion named after him? ROFL. You cannot be a
Christian if you hate. Hatred is the work of the devil.
>> Perhaps you would be benefitted by reviewing your definition of terms a
>> bit more closely. What is "pharmakeia"? To what specific practice does it
>> allude? Isn't it where we get the English word PHARMACOLOGY? Perhaps this
>> passage is meant to say Christians shouldn't take modern medicines? LOL.
>
>The root 'pharmakeia' refers to potions and concoctions used in conjunction
>with witchcraft, for the summoning and manipulation of spiritual entities
>and so-called lesser gods.
>
Now you are trying to imply that there is more than one God.
<sigh> Is there no end to this torture?
>The modern day equivalent of 'gaslighting', or slipping something into an
>associate's beverage in order to confuse, bewilder, or exert influence and
>control over.
>
LOL. Perhaps you've had an overdose of ecstasy!
Gregory Perry
> ___Mr. Perry___
> Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity.
> That statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
> fraternity.
>
> ___David Simpson___
> Would you agree that Christianity took its rise from Judaism? You would
> have to say yes, since Jesus and all the Disciples were Jews. This means
> that Kaballah, a Jewish tradition and method of study, has everything to
> do with the creation of both Islam and Christianity
> -----
I would not agree.
There was no such thing as "Judaism" before Jesus Christ. Before Messiah,
there was the faith of the Israelites, which became corrupted by the
Pharisees and Sadducees. The Talmud, and the Kabbalah, were both "oral
traditions of the elders", handed down from generation to generation, and
were compiled into written form as the Mishnah in Babylon AFTER the
rejection of Jesus Christ, hence the term "Babylonian Talmud". Christianity
has nothing to do with the Kabbalah, as Jesus Christ was an outspoken
opponent of the "elders" and their system of oral traditions. The term
"Jew" was a derogatory name given to the Israelites by the Gentiles, and
after the rejection of Messiah (Lo Ammi = not My People) they were no
longer regarded as "Israel" by Jehovah, rather as the "Jews".
A good analogy would be that game from grade school, where everyone sits in
a circle and someone starts off with a secret whispered into the ear of the
first person, which is then is whispered from person to person around the
circle. What happens to the original secret by the time it goes full
circle?
> Indeed. As is masterfully argued by Alan F. Segal in his book, Paul the
> Convert:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300052278/
>
> One of the things this book is criticized for is its digression into
> details. However, those details are quite fascinating, and tend to
> demonstrate Paul's connection with the tradition that would later become
> known as MERKABAH MYSTICISM -- i.e., the Kabbalah. Oops!
Haven't read this book, I'll check it out.
> ___David Simpson___
> Sorcery is not practised by any person or Freemason I have met.
> ----
Refer to previous posts re: dark magic and Kabbalah. Incompatible with
Christianity, and spoken against on numerous occasions by Jesus Christ.
Gregory Perry
> Are you trying to claim that you are not anti-semitic?
Absolutely not, I am nothing of the sort. Every morning I wake up and read
about the atrocities committed against the indigenous people of Palestine
in the name of "peace" by the Sharon administration, I have to restrain
myself from puking on my keyboard.
As Arabs are Semites, and I have a profound sense of sympathy for the Arabs
in Palestine, Afghanistan, and Iraq that are being treated like animals on
a daily basis using U.S. tax dollars, the term anti-Semitic has no meaning
in your context.
Anti-Semitism's new definition is "anyone that Israel hates."
> You are trying to claim that Jesus, a jew, was diametrically opposed
> to Christianity, the religion named after him? ROFL. You cannot be a
> Christian if you hate. Hatred is the work of the devil.
Read prior post re: origins of Kabbalah and Talmud. There was no such thing
as "Judaism" prior to the advent of Jesus Christ.
>>spiritual entities and so-called lesser gods.
>>
> Now you are trying to imply that there is more than one God.
Key phrase being "so-called". There are legions of principalities and
powers, but only one true God.
> LOL. Perhaps you've had an overdose of ecstasy!
You should do some research on who is the largest importer of MDMA into the
United States.
Marcus
>
> > LOL. Perhaps you've had an overdose of ecstasy!
To which Gregory Perry replied:
> You should do some research on who is the largest importer of MDMA into
the
> United States.
>
On David's behalf I have done so. According to the DEA (the drug
enforcement agency in the USA for those non-Americans reading) the largest
producer of MDMA that is then exported to the US is the NETHERLANDS.
See http://www.dea.gov/concern/drug_trafficking.html, but I have pasted the
relevant section below:
"MDMA is manufactured clandestinely in Western Europe, particularly in the
Netherlands and to a lesser extent in Belgium. Much of the MDMA is
manufactured in the southeast section of the Netherlands near Maastricht.
Despite the Dutch Government's efforts to curtail MDMA trafficking, the
Netherlands remains a primary source country for the drug. International
MDMA traffickers based in the Netherlands and Belgium, and a significant
number of U.S.-based traffickers who coordinate MDMA shipments to major
metropolitan areas of the United States sometimes use Montreal and Toronto
as transit points."
I would like to ask you, Gregory, what your point is? I am sure he will
correct me but AFAIK David is not Dutch....., nor Belgian.......
Well young Mr Perry?
Marcus
6974 Rowner
UGLE
Gregory Perry
> the Prophet Daniel was the astrologer to King Nebuchadnezzar, and was
> honored with the title, "rab chartomia," which literally means "Chief of
> the Astrologers," and is rendered "Master of the Magicans" in the KJV of
> the Bible (Daniel 4:9; 5:11). While there is a technical distinction
> between the two, in point of fact, both such individuals might serve in
> the Royal Court, and the word CHARTOM could be used generally to describe
> one possessed of occult knowledge -- i.e., diviners, astrologers,
> magicians, and so forth.
Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah were all kidnapped after
Nebuchadnezzar took control of Jerusalem. Daniel was no more an astrologer
or magician than Azariah, renamed to Abednego, was a worshipper of Nego
(although that's the literal translation of Abednego). Nebuchadnezzar,
which is one of the few archetypes in the bible representative of a one
world system of government, assigned those names to them.
Gene Zippy
<jsw...@mindspring.com> interestingly poked out:
>> As one of our former regulars used to say: Scratch an anti, expose a
>>bigot.
>----
>
>Mr. Perry is apparently an "Identity Christian."
Reminds me of another CI bigot who used to hang out here.
>I will refrain from
>commenting on what "identity" that is, but I think your own quote sums
>things up nicely, Gene.
>
It does agree with my experience.
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>There was no such thing as "Judaism" before Jesus Christ.
<ROFL>
THAT one takes the cake! This idjit thinks Jesus invented Judaism?
<ROFL>
Too funny for words.
Gene Zippy
<marcus.collie[losethis]@virgin.net> interestingly poked out:
>I would like to ask you, Gregory, what your point is?
Don't you see it? It's right there, on top of his head.
Ed King
>
> [Well, gotta go head over to Concord, MA to check the stock in the
> colonial armory,
No, no, no.... It's the Old Powder House in Somerville! But that's ok: maybe we
can find a Mason who'll create a statue for the green there in Concord.
> then it's off to Boston to get those two lamps up in the ol' North
> Church filled with oil.
Be sure he's a Mason. That's a fact too!
> We might have to hang them from the Hancock tower this time though to
> get the height we need. At least the name is appropriate.]
Pop quiz: name the smallest national park in the USA and pinpoint it's
location. A clue appears above.... <S>
Fraternally,
Ed King
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
Ed King
>
> Hmm. I remarked to Ed King once that you strip away everything, and
> these anti-Masonic arguements always boil down to some Messianic
> End Times message. Can I call them or what?
Seems so from what I've read of Mr. Perry. I also noted that he's not
produced any evidence that he was "ruined" by Freemasonry. Funny that, huh?
> Speaking of Ed, I believe somewhere on his site there's mention of
> the "Identity" movement referred to in one of the threads.
Oh, yes.... The Christian Identity movement is a FASCINATING study. I
wonder if the SPLC is familiar with Mr. Perry: I'll have to check with my
fellow watchdoggers about him.
Jim Bennie
wrote:
> In article <blutri$6pp$1...@vcn.bc.ca>, Jim Bennie wrote:
> > Hmm. I remarked to Ed King once that you strip away everything, and
> > these anti-Masonic arguements always boil down to some Messianic
> > End Times message. Can I call them or what?
> Seems so from what I've read of Mr. Perry. I also noted that he's not
> produced any evidence that he was "ruined" by Freemasonry. Funny that, huh?
I'm awaiting the words "rain barrel".
> > Speaking of Ed, I believe somewhere on his site there's mention of
> > the "Identity" movement referred to in one of the threads.
> Oh, yes.... The Christian Identity movement is a FASCINATING study. I
> wonder if the SPLC is familiar with Mr. Perry: I'll have to check with my
> fellow watchdoggers about him.
Careful, Ed! You'll be accused of internet stalking or being a goon or
some such silliness.
Here's a philsophical question.. if Freemasons are supposed to be
tolerant of others' religious beliefs, should be tolerant of Christian
Identity? When does the line get drawn?
Ed King
> In <VA.00000c3...@earthlink.net>, Ed King <edk...@masonicinfo.com>
> wrote:
> > In article <blutri$6pp$1...@vcn.bc.ca>, Jim Bennie wrote:
> > > Hmm. I remarked to Ed King once that you strip away everything, and
> > > these anti-Masonic arguements always boil down to some Messianic
> > > End Times message. Can I call them or what?
>
> > Seems so from what I've read of Mr. Perry. I also noted that he's not
> > produced any evidence that he was "ruined" by Freemasonry. Funny that, huh?
>
> I'm awaiting the words "rain barrel".
<ROFL> Yes, that might well be it. Strange how when proof of these bizarre
claims of Masonic world domination are sought, the best that can be offered is
something like that of Maurice or our perennial friend James Todd.
> > > Speaking of Ed, I believe somewhere on his site there's mention of
> > > the "Identity" movement referred to in one of the threads.
>
> > Oh, yes.... The Christian Identity movement is a FASCINATING study. I
> > wonder if the SPLC is familiar with Mr. Perry: I'll have to check with my
> > fellow watchdoggers about him.
>
> Careful, Ed! You'll be accused of internet stalking or being a goon or
> some such silliness.
Yes, wouldn't it be awful to find out the real facts....
> Here's a philsophical question.. if Freemasons are supposed to be
> tolerant of others' religious beliefs, should be tolerant of Christian
> Identity? When does the line get drawn?
Fine line and certainly a slippery slope to it but CI is really nothing more
than a convenient hook on which to hang an agenda of hate. When someone sets up
a tax-exempt religious group for the sole purpose of haranguing others (as many
have done vis-a-vis the Mormons and a couple - Larry Kunk/Ephesians5-11, for
example - relative to Freemasonry), it's not a religion at all.
In court challenges, CI has been held to not be a 'faith' but rather a racist
dogma so....
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>
>> ___Mr. Perry___
>> Kaballah has NOTHING to do with the origins of Islam or Christianity.
>> That statement in itself tells me everything I need to know about your
>> fraternity.
>>
>> ___David Simpson___
>> Would you agree that Christianity took its rise from Judaism? You would
>> have to say yes, since Jesus and all the Disciples were Jews. This means
>> that Kaballah, a Jewish tradition and method of study, has everything to
>> do with the creation of both Islam and Christianity
>> -----
>
>I would not agree.
>
>There was no such thing as "Judaism" before Jesus Christ. Before Messiah,
>there was the faith of the Israelites, which became corrupted by the
>Pharisees and Sadducees. The Talmud, and the Kabbalah, were both "oral
>traditions of the elders", handed down from generation to generation, and
>were compiled into written form as the Mishnah in Babylon AFTER the
>rejection of Jesus Christ, hence the term "Babylonian Talmud". Christianity
>has nothing to do with the Kabbalah, as Jesus Christ was an outspoken
>opponent of the "elders" and their system of oral traditions. The term
>"Jew" was a derogatory name given to the Israelites by the Gentiles, and
>after the rejection of Messiah (Lo Ammi = not My People) they were no
>longer regarded as "Israel" by Jehovah, rather as the "Jews".
>
ROFL. You really have had a great number pressed on you and you've
fallen for it, hook line and sinker. You should, perhaps, go back to
school and demand that they repay any fees paid for your education as
receiving money under false pretenses. Do the same at your church.
>A good analogy would be that game from grade school, where everyone sits in
>a circle and someone starts off with a secret whispered into the ear of the
>first person, which is then is whispered from person to person around the
>circle. What happens to the original secret by the time it goes full
>circle?
>
I couldn't agree more. The original message can be distorted over time
which is why the Talmud came into existence. The Jews realised that
their Oral History was becoming distorted and so it was written down
once the scribes had learnt to write. They learned from their
mistakes. Are you so perfect that you do not need to learn?
I see that you have actually taken notice that the Babylonian Talmud
was written by the Jews while they were in Babylon rather than
predating the Jews as you originally claimed. This shows that you can
learn. Excellent.
>> Indeed. As is masterfully argued by Alan F. Segal in his book, Paul the
>> Convert:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300052278/
>>
>> One of the things this book is criticized for is its digression into
>> details. However, those details are quite fascinating, and tend to
>> demonstrate Paul's connection with the tradition that would later become
>> known as MERKABAH MYSTICISM -- i.e., the Kabbalah. Oops!
>
>Haven't read this book, I'll check it out.
>
>> ___David Simpson___
>> Sorcery is not practised by any person or Freemason I have met.
>> ----
>
>Refer to previous posts re: dark magic and Kabbalah. Incompatible with
>Christianity, and spoken against on numerous occasions by Jesus Christ.
This is something that you have not yet learnt. Kabalah is a system of
study. It is not inherently good or bad. Like Christians (Crusades,
Inquisition) and Muslims, individuals and institutions can distort the
message. You are reacting to the distortions not the original message.
I feel that the book of Leviticus distorts the message contained in
the Ten Commandments. Some of those extra laws were responses to
living conditions at the time. Circumcision protected against
Hęmophillia, pigs, being genetically close to humans, were able to
transmit diseases to humans, shellfish often thrived in areas where
sewage congregated and so also transmitted diseases. The dietary laws
are probably not necessary in this day and age as we can protect
ourselves against most of those diseases and disorders. Some of those
laws, in my opinion, are just plain stupid and selfish and,
thankfully, are negated by the laws of our society (stoning, slavery,
etc.)
I have been claiming that Christianity is a religion of love, yet you
claim to be a Christian and are acting with hate. If you read the
scriptures you will find that Jesus railed against the people
(Pharisees, Levites) and the institutions (money changing, etc) while
exhorting his followers to follow the Jewish law. He did modify that
law by his two extra commandments which were in addition to, not
replacing, the Ten Commandments.
You revile by quoting distortions and calumnies spread by disaffected
persons, and those with an agenda of hate, about an institution of
which you have no personal knowledge. You are bearing false witness.
This is a transgression against the Commandments of your God.
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>David Simpson wrote:
>
>> Are you trying to claim that you are not anti-semitic?
>
>Absolutely not, I am nothing of the sort. Every morning I wake up and read
>about the atrocities committed against the indigenous people of Palestine
>in the name of "peace" by the Sharon administration, I have to restrain
>myself from puking on my keyboard.
>
Do you also puke when those self-same people set off yet another of
their cowardly suicide bombs? Just so you know, Palestine, as a
nation, has never existed. The people who mow call themselves
Palestinian are actually Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, etc.
>As Arabs are Semites, and I have a profound sense of sympathy for the Arabs
>in Palestine, Afghanistan, and Iraq that are being treated like animals on
>a daily basis using U.S. tax dollars, the term anti-Semitic has no meaning
>in your context.
>
>Anti-Semitism's new definition is "anyone that Israel hates."
>
Correct. Splitting hairs comes easily to you doesn't it. Just as the
swastika is now reviled as a symbol of hatred and bigotry.
>> You are trying to claim that Jesus, a jew, was diametrically opposed
>> to Christianity, the religion named after him? ROFL. You cannot be a
>> Christian if you hate. Hatred is the work of the devil.
>
>Read prior post re: origins of Kabbalah and Talmud. There was no such thing
>as "Judaism" prior to the advent of Jesus Christ.
>
Read my answer to that calumny.
>>>spiritual entities and so-called lesser gods.
>>>
>> Now you are trying to imply that there is more than one God.
>
>Key phrase being "so-called". There are legions of principalities and
>powers, but only one true God.
>
>> LOL. Perhaps you've had an overdose of ecstasy!
>
>You should do some research on who is the largest importer of MDMA into the
>United States.
Why? I don't live there.
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
Nebuchadnezzar was a king of Babylon or Persia. The Persians did have
effective control over most of the known world until they ran up
against Leonidas and the Spartans at Thermopylæ. Subsequent to that
Alexander came out of Macedonia and conquered more than the Persians
had ever dreamed about. Then came the Romans and the rest, they say,
is history.
I suggest that you learn from Joe as he is very knowledgable about
these matters. If he says that Daniel was given a title then he
probably was. He even quotes a reference which is more than you have
done.
Gregory Perry
> I suggest that you learn from Joe as he is very knowledgable about
> these matters. If he says that Daniel was given a title then he
> probably was. He even quotes a reference which is more than you have
> done.
I've posted dozens of quotes and references, only to be labeled a bigot, an
anti-Semite, a "Christian Identity" member, and who knows what else behind
closed doors.
What a great fraternity you guys have there!
David Simpson
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> typed furiously:
>David Simpson wrote:
The fraternity is great. It's some of the crashing bores who try to
break in that causes the problem.
You have only been labelled in those terms because that is how you
appear to us. You come here, uninvited, post abuse about us, act like
a bigot and yet you expect us to be polite and civil. Well I'm sorry
for you. If your world is so small that you don't have any room for
differences then you really are a pitiful excuse for a man.
I suggest that you go and get some education in living with other
people. Learn facts before you make accusations based on hearsay
evidence from some bigot who heard it from someone else who read it on
that website run by a well known crank and bigot who no one has ever
met because he posts under a false identity. At least most of the
Freemasons post here using their own names and giving details of their
Lodge affiliations. There are some who don't, mainly because they
would be subjected to discrimination if their membership became known.
You want to quote Pike? Read the whole book first. Don't just pick out
the bits that someone else has misquoted and taken out of context.
Learn to understand his writings, including the preface where he
states that anyone is entitled to disagree with his ramblings. Be
aware of the place he actually holds instead of assuming that he is
some all powerful grand poo-bah with unlimited knowledge instead of a
small fish in a very large sea.
The same applies to your other quotes. Put them in context. The
sentences before and after often cast an entirely different light on
your quotes. Ask about the author's standing and authority.
Learn history. The history of the Jews is contained in the Old
Testament and some other writings. Just remember that translators make
mistakes so it would be best to study them in the original Hebrew or
Aramaic.
Don't ever take what someone states as the truth unless it can be
independently verified. That includes whatever I say. It also includes
your Pastor. People lie, often quite unintentionally. I believe that
you may be in that category. You have been lied to by others. Verify
what you have been told by asking questions and researching the
subject before you make accusations.
If you ask questions of the posters to this group without being
confrontational you would be answered without rancour in most cases
although your current posting record will, doubtless, be remembered
for some time.
Gregory Perry
>>
> Seems so from what I've read of Mr. Perry. I also noted that he's not
> produced any evidence that he was "ruined" by Freemasonry. Funny that,
> huh?
Don't worry, Rome didn't burn in one night.
Stay tuned.
Ed King
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 01:14:32 GMT, Ed King <edk...@masonicinfo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <l1l5ov403pch9qv0r...@4ax.com>, Bob wrote:
> >>
> >> [Well, gotta go head over to Concord, MA to check the stock in the
> >> colonial armory,
> >
> >No, no, no.... It's the Old Powder House in Somerville! But that's ok: maybe we
> >can find a Mason who'll create a statue for the green there in Concord.
>
> certain that the British marched from Lexington to Concord to seize
> the weapons at the "armory" near Concord center.
OH, the MARCH.... I thought you were just checking stock in general.... <S>
> But, who knows, maybe the just wanted to do some shopping at those cute
> little stores in the center of town.
Or stop at the Chinese restaurant.... Hey: maybe they were headed up to the SR HQ,
right?
> >> then it's off to Boston to get those two lamps up in the ol' North
> >> Church filled with oil.
> >
> >Be sure he's a Mason. That's a fact too!
>
> Sit my children and you shall hear,
> of the midnight ride of Paul Revere.
> He gets all the credit; Dawes gets none of his own,
> but a brief footnote and reference, and a small marker stone.
>
> :-)
You got it! And on the 18th too.... <sigh>
> >Pop quiz: name the smallest national park in the USA and pinpoint it's
> >location. A clue appears above.... <S>
>
> Is it Minuteman National Park ? - so named because it takes nary a
> minute to drive from one end to the other ?
Nope: Paul Revere National Park in Somerville. A small triangle on Winter Hill
which is probably about 30 square feet. It's where the two separated, Dawes going
off to Medford and Revere on to Lexington. Just another bit of Massachusetts
history.... <BWG>
Ed King
Is there some reason you have to wait?
Concocting a better story, perhaps?
Ben Gee
>Ouch must be a F00l Moon night~~
Joe Steve Swick III
the Prophet Daniel was the astrologer to King Nebuchadnezzar, and was
honored with the title, "rab chartomia," which literally means "Chief of the
Astrologers," and is rendered "Master of the Magicans" in the KJV of the
Bible (Daniel 4:9; 5:11). While there is a technical distinction between the
two, in point of fact, both such individuals might serve in the Royal Court,
and the word CHARTOM could be used generally to describe one possessed of
occult knowledge -- i.e., diviners, astrologers, magicians, and so forth.
___Gregory Perry___
Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah were all kidnapped after
Nebuchadnezzar took control of Jerusalem. Daniel was no more an astrologer
or magician than Azariah, renamed to Abednego, was a worshipper of Nego
> (although that's the literal translation of Abednego). Nebuchadnezzar,
which is one of the few archetypes in the bible representative of a one
world system of government, assigned those names to them.
-----
Actually, the NAME Daniel was given was BELTESHAZZAR. "RAB CHARTOMIA" --
Master of the Magicians," was a TITLE -- an OFFICE or RANK which he held,
Mr. Perry. And why do you suppose he was GIVEN that RANK? Do you suppose it
is because he was a great singer of songs, or baker of bread? As the story
in Daniel suggests, he was given this office because of his FACILITY IN
OCCULT KNOWLEDGE, which in the story he applied to divine the meaning of the
king's dream. Daniel was emphatic that this occult ability came from the God
of Heaven. In fact, even the name DANIEL itself is a play on Daniel's role
as DIVINER in Nebuchadnezzar's court, and whence he derived his skills. You
will note that the analytical and predictive aspects of astrology are called
"the JUDGMENT of the horoscope," and that the name DANIEL means GOD IS THE
JUDGE. Here is how this theme plays out in the text of the Book of Daniel:
"The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou
able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the
interpretation thereof? Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and
said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the
astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; But there
is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king
Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.... As for thee, O king, thy
thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass
hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall
come to pass. But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any
wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make
known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the
thoughts of thy heart" (Daniel 2:26-30).
At first glance, you might assume that Daniel, a.k.a. Belteshazzar, obtained
the title "Master of Magicians" BECAUSE he interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's
dream, but later, the King indicates that he actually sought out the advice
of Daniel, BECAUSE HE WAS [apparently already] "RAB CHARTOMIA" -- literally
"Master of Astrologers":
"I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace: I
saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the
visions of my head troubled me. Therefore made I a decree to bring in all
the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the
interpretation of the dream. Then came in the magicians, the astrologers,
the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but
they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof. But at the last
Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name
of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told
the dream, saying, O BELTESHAZZAR, MASTER OF THE MAGICIANS, BECAUSE I KNOW
THAT the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and NO SECRET TROUBLETH THEE,
TELL ME the visions of my dream that I have seen, and THE INTERPRETATION
thereof" (Daniel 4:4-9).
JSW
Joe Steve Swick III
I suggest that you learn from Joe as he is very knowledgable about these
matters. If he says that Daniel was given a title then he probably was. He
even quotes a reference which is more than you have done.
___Gregory Perry___
I've posted dozens of quotes and references
----
Yes, but as I've stated already, Mr. Perry: 0 x 1000 still equals 0.
___Gregory Perry___
...only to be labeled a bigot, an anti-Semite,
-----
Your postings speak for themselves, sir. If you do not wish to have them
stuck all over you, then it is your own responsibility to remove the
"velcro" of your own expressed opinions to which these labels so easily
stick.
___Gregory Perry___
a "Christian Identity" member
----
If you'd be so kind, just what IS your religious affiliation, Mr. Perry?
___Gregory Perry___
and who knows what else behind closed doors.
----
Not to worry. Since your bigoted, anti-Semitic comments are made in public,
we are quite happy to call you a bigot and an anti-Semite directly to your
face.
___Gregory Perry___
What a great fraternity you guys have there!
----
Well, yes! It is a FANTASTIC fraternity, thank you for noticing.
Unfortunately for you, we have a large sign on the front door, which reads:
BIGOTS, THE INTOLERANT & NARROW SECTARIANS NEED NOT APPLY. I can understand
why that might leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but there you have it.
Cheers,
Joe Swick, PM
Verity Lodge No. 59 F&AM
Kent, Washington
Joe Steve Swick III
Are you trying to claim that you are not anti-semitic?
___Gregory Perry___
Absolutely not, I am nothing of the sort. <snip> As Arabs are Semites, and I
have a profound sense of sympathy for the Arabs in Palestine, Afghanistan,
and Iraq that are being treated like animals on a daily basis using U.S. tax
dollars, the term anti-Semitic has no meaning in your context.
Anti-Semitism's new definition is "anyone that Israel hates."
-----
Perhaps a small lesson in history might help clarify this issue for you, Mr.
Perry. The term "antisemitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr, as an acceptable
euphemism for the then-current but extremely vile-sounding German word
"Judenhass," or "Jew-hatred." That is JEW hatred, Mr. Perry -- not "Arab
hatred" or "Palestinian hatred." Historically, the term "antisemitism" has
meant, hatred of JEWS -- or, more specifically, Judaism and its religious
values.
The spelling "anti-Semitic" (with an uppercase "S") is confusing, because it
implies some wider ethic group which includes Arabs. However, this is not at
all the historical meaning of the term "anti-semitism." "Judenhass" is not
"anti-[S]emitism" or even "anti-Arab sentiment." It specifically means
anti-JEWISH, and Wilhelm Marr devised the word "antisemitism" (with a
lower-case "s") to replace it.
Please note this distinction, Mr. Perry. David Simpson asked you if you were
claiming that you were NOT an anti-semite. You replied that you were
absolutely NOT an anti-Semite. But that wasn't what he asked, now was it? I
trust you precisely understood this distinction even before I mentioned it,
but I wished to clarify the point for anyone else who might not be familier
with this kind of weasle-tactic by anti-semites.
Now, with this distinction between uppercase "S" and lowercase "s" clearly
in your mind, please answer the question again honestly: do you claim that
you are NOT an anti-semite?
A simple YES or NO will do, sir.
JSW
Gregory Perry
> Actually, the NAME Daniel was given was BELTESHAZZAR. "RAB CHARTOMIA" --
> Master of the Magicians," was a TITLE -- an OFFICE or RANK which he held,
> Mr. Perry. And why do you suppose he was GIVEN that RANK? Do you suppose
> it is because he was a great singer of songs, or baker of bread? As the
> story in Daniel suggests, he was given this office because of his FACILITY
> IN OCCULT KNOWLEDGE, which in the story he applied to divine the meaning
> of the king's dream. Daniel was emphatic that this occult ability came
> from the God of Heaven. In fact, even the name DANIEL itself is a play on
> Daniel's role as DIVINER in Nebuchadnezzar's court, and whence he derived
> his skills. You will note that the analytical and predictive aspects of
> astrology are called "the JUDGMENT of the horoscope," and that the name
> DANIEL means GOD IS THE JUDGE. Here is how this theme plays out in the
> text of the Book of Daniel:
More poison. Daniel was not an astrologer, and relied specifically on
Jehovah to provide wisdom to the king that his magicians and astrologers
were incapable of providing. Shadrach translates to (=command of Aku, the
moon-god); according to your foolish logic, Shadrach must have worshipped
Aku as well, right?
If I change your name to Joe Steve Sphincter III, does that make you a
sphincter?
Gregory Perry
> If you'd be so kind, just what IS your religious affiliation, Mr. Perry?
Christian, and tolerant of almost every major world religion except the ones
that contain anti-Christian rhetoric. Refer to previous posts re: kaballah
and babylonian talmud that call Jesus Christ's mother a whore, Jesus Christ
was buried in excrement for leading the nation of Israel astray with
sorcery, etc etc.
"The Kaballah was first taught by God to a select company of angels, who
formed a theosophic school in Paradise. After the fall the angels most
graciously communicated this heavenly doctrine to the disobedient child of
earth..." (*Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry* Volume 1, p.166)
"It is further contended that Moses included this Kaballism in the
Pentateuch, through which David and Solomon became initiated into the
Kaballa." (Ibid, p.166)
> Not to worry. Since your bigoted, anti-Semitic comments are made in
> public, we are quite happy to call you a bigot and an anti-Semite directly
> to your face.
Go ahead and play the anti-Semite card Swick, that's all you've got so do
the best you can with it.
> BIGOTS, THE INTOLERANT & NARROW SECTARIANS NEED NOT APPLY. I can
> understand why that might leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but there
> you have it.
You left out the part about "must be a facist to join."
Gene Zippy
>I've posted dozens of quotes and references, only to be labeled a bigot, an
>anti-Semite, a "Christian Identity" member, and who knows what else behind
>closed doors.
Yep, but it wasn't the quotes and references that pointed you out. It
was your bigoted, anti-jewish editorial comments.
>What a great fraternity you guys have there!
It is, actually. We even tolerate people like you. We would never
let someone like you become a member, of course, but you are welcome
to post here.
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 2003. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
Joe Steve Swick III
This seems to be completely off topic for a group which espouses universal
brotherhood, but this line of posts is getting into a petty villification,
and snide comment based on an unconfirmed assessment of what another brother
may be thinking, even though he denies it.
-----
Peter: please review the thread carefully. Gregory Perry is no Brother, and
he most certainly IS an antisemite. Furthermore, the remarks are not at all
"petty villification." Mr. Perry is dodging the issue of whether or not he
is anti-semitic by choosing to define the term as he chooses, rather than as
it is.
___Peter Dettmann___
As to definitions of Semitism based on some "authority", well my Chambers
dictionary must be wrong in asserting that a Semite is any person descended
from Shem, or speaking a Semitic language (including
Hebrew, and Arabic).
----
Please re-read the argument carefully, Peter. The issue isn't whether or not
a "Semite" is any person descended from Shem. Rather, it is about the
definition of the words "antisemitism," and "anti-semitic."
___Peter Dettmann___
Anti Semitic often refers to Anti-Jewish, and Anti-Arab ... often the
context is needed to determine if a particular Semitic group is specifically
meant.
----
Please read carefully. The issue is about the definition of antisemitism. At
the risk of repeating myself, this word wasn't coined to describe hatred of
Arabs. It was specifically coined to replace the word "Judenhass" --
literally, "Jew-hatred." Now, some modern dictionaries choose to hyphenate
the word and capitalize the "S." This is confusing, but generally, you will
see a definition like this:
an·ti-Sem·i·tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Some dictionaries do attempt to broaden the meaning of the word to include
Semitic peoples in general. For example, we find this:
====
antisemitism
Anti-Semitism \An`ti-Sem"i*tism\, n. Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites,
esp. Jews. -- An`ti-Sem\"ite, n. -- An`ti-Sem*it\"ic, a.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
====
While this states that the word "anti-Semitism" may be general hatred of
Semites, *especially* Jews, let me ask you honestly: have you EVER heard
this word used to describe anti-Arab sentiment? Attempts to broaden its
usage notwithstanding, the truth is that antisemitism is HATRED FOR JEWS,
and, generally speaking, the word is NOT used to describe hatred of Arabs,
Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc. The fundamental meaning of this term
is and remains:
=====
antisemitism
anti-Semitism n : the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish
people [syn: anti-Semitism]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
=====
___Peter Dettmann___
However my real point is that as in Lodge, such discussion should remove
both parties until their differrences can be amicably resolved, where upon
they can the clothe themselves and re-enter the Lodge.
----
This is not a Lodge-room, Peter, and Mr. Perry is not a Brother. I am
adamant that the word "antisemitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr as a
euphemisim for "Judenhass" or "Jew-hatred." I am also adamant that Mr. Perry
is an antisemite -- i.e., he hates Jews. There is no amicable "resolution"
to this issue, other than for Mr. Perry to lay aside his antisemitic
rhetoric, and apologize.
___Peter Dettmann___
Private email would be better than fiery responses in a pubic newsgroup.
-----
Peter, how often do you frequent public newsgroups? How familiar are you
with ALT.FREEMASONRY? Did you even bother to read the entire thread which
led to the posting of mine which you criticized?
And, if you don't mind me asking, just what Lodge to you hail from?
Joe Steve Swick III
___Peter Dettmann___
However my real point is that as in Lodge, such discussion should remove
both parties until their differrences can be amicably resolved, where upon
be better than fiery responses in a pubic newsgroup.
----
Aside from noting that this is NOT a "pubic newsgroup," I'd suggest that the
rules you mention above are perhaps more suited to SOC.ORG.FREEMASONRY. I
just googled you, and as you have noted in the past, there is indeed a place
for moderated newsgroups.
Cheers,
Gregory Perry
> Peter: please review the thread carefully. Gregory Perry is no Brother,
> and he most certainly IS an antisemite. Furthermore, the remarks are not
> at all "petty villification." Mr. Perry is dodging the issue of whether or
> not he is anti-semitic by choosing to define the term as he chooses,
> rather than as it is.
I haven't dodged anything - I quoted direct passages from the kaballah and
babylonian talmud, to which you labelled me a bigot, a "Christian Identity"
member, and an anti-Semite - of which I am none of the above.
> Please re-read the argument carefully, Peter. The issue isn't whether or
> not a "Semite" is any person descended from Shem. Rather, it is about the
> definition of the words "antisemitism," and "anti-semitic."
...
> While this states that the word "anti-Semitism" may be general hatred of
> Semites, *especially* Jews, let me ask you honestly: have you EVER heard
> this word used to describe anti-Arab sentiment? Attempts to broaden its
> usage notwithstanding, the truth is that antisemitism is HATRED FOR JEWS,
> and, generally speaking, the word is NOT used to describe hatred of Arabs,
> Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc. The fundamental meaning of this term
> is and remains:
Because the Arabs are considered subhuman by fellows cut from the same cloth
as you. They are LESSER PEOPLE to you and are treated like ANIMALS, abused
and exploited and if anyone questions that logic that person is immediately
labeled an anti-Semite. What a powerful and cowardly tool.
> This is not a Lodge-room, Peter, and Mr. Perry is not a Brother. I am
> adamant that the word "antisemitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr as a
> euphemisim for "Judenhass" or "Jew-hatred." I am also adamant that Mr.
> Perry is an antisemite -- i.e., he hates Jews. There is no amicable
> "resolution" to this issue, other than for Mr. Perry to lay aside his
> antisemitic rhetoric, and apologize.
I never once, in any of my postings to this newsgroup, said or inferred that
I hated anyone. You've had your feathers ruffled and your ego bruised, so
now you must resort to petty meanderings about how I must certainly hate
Jews.
The original points were simple - freemasonry borrows from the talmud and
kaballah. The talmud and kaballah are most certainly not compatible with
Christianity. Ergo freemasonry is not compatible with Christianity, plain
and simple.
I've posted direct quotes from the talmud and kaballah, nothing more.
The talmud specifically says that Jesus Christ's mother was a whore, that he
practiced beastiality, had sex with his donkey, is being punished in hell
by being boiled in hot semen, and that those that practice the Christian
faith are going to be boiled in hot excrement in hell, yet I am a racist
bigot?
How can anyone consider themselves a Christian, and not be offended by those
statements taken directly from the kaballah and babylonian talmud?
Joe Steve Swick III
If you'd be so kind, just what IS your religious affiliation, Mr. Perry?
___Gregory Perry___
Christian,
----
A very broad affiliation, Mr. Perry. Perhaps you can tell me a bit about
your specific denomination? Frankly, you seem to be avoiding the details on
purpose.
___Gregory Perry___
and tolerant of almost every major world religion except the ones that
contain anti-Christian rhetoric. Refer to previous posts re: kaballah and
babylonian talmud that call Jesus Christ's mother a whore, Jesus Christ
was buried in excrement for leading the nation of Israel astray with
sorcery, etc etc.
-----
I've been collecting volumes of the Talmud for quite some time -- there are
quite a few. I don't yet have the specific volumes you've mentioned, so I
really can't comment on them. However, I have a very difficult time
believing that you regularly read the Talmud, and just happened to stumble
upon these passages. If you would be so kind, Mr. Perry, from what specific
source text did you find these quotes? I'm not asking for "The Talmud" or
"The Kabbalah." Rather I'm asking you to provide the reference which CITES
the Talmud, which you have apparently used to make your argument. Is it an
online website? Is it a tract or book? Please be specific; it will assist me
in my own research.
___Gregory Perry___
"The Kaballah was first taught by God to a select company of angels, who
formed a theosophic school in Paradise. After the fall the angels most
graciously communicated this heavenly doctrine to the disobedient child of
earth..." (*Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry* Volume 1, p.166) >
It is further contended that Moses included this Kaballism in the
Pentateuch, through which David and Solomon became initiated into the
Kaballa." (Ibid, p.166)
-----
Mr. Perry, I have this volume, but apparently the pagination is not the same
as yours. My Volume 1 Page 166 is the end of a discussion of the
"Comacines." In fact, I can't think of an entry head under which such a
discussion would even be possible on this page. Perhaps the anti-Masonic
pamphlet or book from which you are quoting got it all wrong? However,
quite a bit farther along in the volume -- under "Kabbala"-- there is a
discussion, which includes the quote you give, with this prefatory
information:
"In what estimation the Kabbala is held by Jewish scholars, we may learn
from the traditions which they teach, and which Dr. Ginsburg has given in
his exhaustive work (Kabbalah, p. 84), in the following words:
'The Kabbalah was first taught by God himself to a select company of angels,
who formed a theosophic school in Paradise. After the fall, the angels most
graciously communicated this heavenly doctrine to the disobedient child of
earth, to furnish the protoplasts with the means of returning to their
pristine nobility and felicity.... Moses ... initiated the seventy elders
into the secrets of this doctrine, and they again transmitted them from hand
to hand. Of all who formed the unbroken line of tradition, David and Solomon
were first initiated into the Kabbalah. No one, however, dared write it down
till Simon ben Jochai, wo lived at the time of the destruction of the second
Temple " (Mackey, "Kabbala," _Encyclopedia of Freemasonry_, Revised
Edition).
Do you have a specific point or concern with Mackey's discussion, Mr. Perry?
___JSW___
Not to worry. Since your bigoted, anti-Semitic comments are made in public,
we are quite happy to call you a bigot and an anti-Semite directly to your
face.
___Gregory Perry___
Go ahead and play the anti-Semite card Swick, that's all you've got so do
the best you can with it.
-----
But Mr. Perry, you have already admitted that you hate Jews/Judaism, the
Babylonian Talmud, and the Kabbalah. I don't know how you can keep a
straight face when claiming you are NOT an antisemite.
___JSW___
BIGOTS, THE INTOLERANT & NARROW SECTARIANS NEED NOT APPLY [to the Lodge].
I can understand why that might leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but
there you have it.
___Gregory Perry___
You left out the part about "must be a facist to join."
----
LOL! As I recall, the fascists of the past century are MOST noted for their
espousal of the very same doctrines we have witnessed YOU preach right here
on ALT.FREEMASONRY, Mr. Perry.
Cheers,
JSW
Jack Hickey
<jsw...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>God bless Masonry -- and God BLESS the secrets it keeps!
Amen.
Jack Hickey, PM, MPS
Master, Isaiah Thomas Lodge AF&AM Worcester MA
Major General Henry Knox Lodge, Boston MA
Eureka Chapter HRA
Hiram Council RSMM
Worcester County Commandery #5
Cairo Shrine Masons
ethan's grandpa
www.geocities.com/isaiahthomas2001/
Gene Zippy
<gr...@PerryResearch.com> interestingly poked out:
>I haven't dodged anything - I quoted direct passages from the kaballah and
>babylonian talmud, to which you labelled me a bigot, a "Christian Identity"
>member, and an anti-Semite - of which I am none of the above.
Keep saying it. Perhaps one day you might come to believe it.
>The original points were simple - freemasonry borrows from the talmud and
>kaballah.
It does? Where? In what section of which of the Three Degrees of
Freemasonry is that?
> The talmud and kaballah are most certainly not compatible with
>Christianity. Ergo freemasonry is not compatible with Christianity, plain
>and simple.
>
>I've posted direct quotes from the talmud and kaballah, nothing more.
No, you posted plenty more. You spewed your opinions of beliefs you
do not hold, on matters which have nothing to do with the fraternity
of Freemasonry. That's fine. Post your filth, and show everyone what
kind of person you are.
>The talmud specifically says that Jesus Christ's mother was a whore, that he
>practiced beastiality, had sex with his donkey, is being punished in hell
>by being boiled in hot semen, and that those that practice the Christian
>faith are going to be boiled in hot excrement in hell, yet I am a racist
>bigot?
No, the Talmud doesn't say those things. Other bigots took statements
out of context to make it look like it could be interpreted that way.
That's ok, though. At least you are studying Talmud. Perhaps some
day you might come to understand it.
>How can anyone consider themselves a Christian, and not be offended by those
>statements taken directly from the kaballah and babylonian talmud?
Because they take them in context and realize that they mean something
completely different from what you and your leaders, or the salesmen
who sold you that bill of goods (depending on your degree of
awareness) want you to think it means.
Gene Zippy
<jsw...@mindspring.com> interestingly poked out:
>Perhaps the anti-Masonic
>pamphlet or book from which you are quoting got it all wrong?
That would be par for the course.
Jack Wise
> That fool Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
>
>
>>If you'd be so kind, just what IS your religious affiliation, Mr. Perry?
>
>
> Christian, and tolerant of almost every major world religion except the ones
> that contain anti-Christian rhetoric. Refer to previous posts re: kaballah
> and babylonian talmud that call Jesus Christ's mother a whore, Jesus Christ
> was buried in excrement for leading the nation of Israel astray with
> sorcery, etc etc.
>
> "The Kaballah was first taught by God to a select company of angels, who
> formed a theosophic school in Paradise. After the fall the angels most
> graciously communicated this heavenly doctrine to the disobedient child of
> earth..." (*Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry* Volume 1, p.166)
>
> "It is further contended that Moses included this Kaballism in the
> Pentateuch, through which David and Solomon became initiated into the
> Kaballa." (Ibid, p.166)
Please present your quotes within the proper context: Mackey is quoting Dr.
Ginsburg in an attempt to show the esteem in which Jewish scholars hold the
Kaballah/Cabala.
That context is not reflected in your post nor does it agree with the point you
are trying to make.
If you wish others to agree with your point of view, then you should be accurate
in your quotes of other and use them in the proper context.
--
Jack Wise
PM, Jacques DeMolay Lodge No. 1390, AF & AM
( www.jd1390.org/jdmlodge.htm )
Houston, TX
Joe Steve Swick III
Actually, the NAME Daniel was given was BELTESHAZZAR. "RAB CHARTOMIA" --
Master of the Magicians," was a TITLE -- an OFFICE or RANK which he held,
Mr. Perry. And why do you suppose he was GIVEN that RANK? Do you suppose it
is because he was a great singer of songs, or baker of bread? As the story
in Daniel suggests, he was given this office because of his FACILITY IN
OCCULT KNOWLEDGE, which in the story he applied to divine the meaning of the
king's dream. Daniel was emphatic that this occult ability came
from the God of Heaven. In fact, even the name DANIEL itself is a play on
Daniel's role as DIVINER in Nebuchadnezzar's court, and whence he derived
his skills. You will note that the analytical and predictive aspects of
astrology are called "the JUDGMENT of the horoscope," and that the name
DANIEL means GOD IS THE JUDGE. Here is how this theme plays out in the text
of the Book of Daniel:
___Gregory Perry___
More poison. Daniel was not an astrologer,
----
Then what WAS his job, Mr. Perry? Official Palace Sluffer? If Belteshazzar
was not in fact, "Chief Astrologer," then it is a very curious thing that he
would have had such a job title! :-) And, if he was not considered a
DIVINER, then why do you suppose he was called to the Palace to interpret
Nebuchadnezzar's dream? Daniel had a reputation. That reputation was as "RAB
CHARTOMIA," or "Chief Astrologer," as the Book of Daniel clearly states. So,
here we have a man, whose official title is "Chief Astrologer," who is
called to the King's Palace in order to interpret the King's dream. Tell me
again what official job you think Daniel REALLY had. LOL.
___Gregory Perry___
[Daniel] and relied specifically on Jehovah to provide wisdom to the king
that his magicians and astrologers were incapable of providing.
----
In other words, he was more skilled at this particular occult art than any
of Nebuchadnezzar's other court diviners. So tell me, Mr. Perry: if I read
Tarot cards for you, and I clearly state to you that I have relied
specifically on YHWH to provide the wisdom to tell you what no other
occultist has been able to, would that change your opinion of my Tarot
reading? :-)
___Gregory Perry___
Shadrach translates to (=command of Aku, the moon-god); according to your
foolish logic, Shadrach must have worshipped Aku as well, right?
----
Not at all. Shadrach was a given name. By contrast, RAB CHARTOMIA is an
OFFICE or an OFFICIAL TITLE, not a name, Mr. Perry. Daniel's given NAME was
Belteshazzar, as I have already noted. If you will recall correctly, my
initial assertion was that Daniel was an Astrologer to King Nebuchadnezzar,
and that the evidence for this was his official title, RAB CHARTOMIA, which
is duly recorded in two places in the Book of Daniel. Furthermore, the book
describes Daniel's experience of interpreting the King's dreams?
___Gregory Perry___
If I change your name to Joe Steve Sphincter III, does that make you a
sphincter?
-----
Aside from the cheap insult, Mr. Perry, I don't suppose that changing my
name in this way would make any difference at all. However, if my OFFICIAL
TITLE was "Sphincter to the King," then one would logically expect that this
is because my job description was to act as the King's anus.
Now, here is what we have established:
Daniel, whose name means "God is Judge," was known in the Babylonian Court
as Belteshazzar. His official TITLE was "Rab Chartomia," which is translated
in the KJV as "Master of Magicians," but which means "Chief Astrologer."
According to the words of Nebuchadnezzar, this title belonged to Daniel even
BEFORE the King called upon him for his services -- i.e., before
Nebuchadnezzar called Daniel to interpret his dream. Like divining the
stars, dream interpretation was consider an occult art; and, while he gave
full credit to God for his interpretations, Daniel was apparently skilled at
this form of divination.
Whether you agree with my conclusions or not you must admit that I've
provided a reasonable argument on Daniel. Now, as I recall, the start of
this conversation was your assertion that Mr. John Dee, Court Astrologer to
Queen Elizabeth, was the founder of Freemasonry. I trust I have provided far
more evidence in favor of the notion that Daniel held the title "Chief
Astrologer" in Nebuchadnezzar's Court than YOU have provided that Dee was
the founder of Freemasonry. So... now it is YOUR turn with John Dee. Let's
see your hand, Mr. Perry: did Dee really "found Freemasonry" as you have
suggested? Can you make your case -- a case at least as strong as my case
that Daniel was Chief Astrologer? Or are you just a "puffer" without a fact
in your favor?
Good luck.
Joe Steve Swick III
___Jack Wise___
Please present your quotes within the proper context: Mackey is quoting Dr.
Ginsburg in an attempt to show the esteem in which Jewish scholars hold the
Kaballah/Cabala.
That context is not reflected in your post nor does it agree with the point
you are trying to make.
If you wish others to agree with your point of view, then you should be
accurate in your quotes of other and use them in the proper context.
-----
Jack, you and I both know that Mr. Perry has never even SEEN a copy of
Mackey's Encyclopedia. If he HAD, he would know PRECISELY how to answer my
argument, and I would then move on to the next logical point. As it is, the
man is simply not properly equipped for this discussion.
I similarly don't think he has seen copies of any actual Kabbalistic text,
and he CERTAINLY hasn't seen any copies of the Talmud. I just located two of
the cites in my own copy of Tractate Gittin, and they have been severely
misrepresented by Mr. Perry and others, to say the least. But more on that
in another posting!
Kindest,
JSW
Joe Steve Swick III
___JSW___
Perhaps the anti-Masonic pamphlet or book from which you are quoting got it
all wrong?
___Gene___
That would be par for the course.
----
As I said to Jack Wise, this fella CERTAINLY isn't reading from any original
source materials. The only real question is what anti book or tract or
website/ng he's pulling from.
JSW
David Simpson
<pe...@aardvark.net.au> typed furiously:
[snip]
Peter, you are correct that this would be off topic in a Lodge. We are
not in a lodge but in a public place. In this public place the
original poster is trying to smear the good name of Freemasonry by
innuendo and other forms of vilification. I, for one, will not let
these lies go unanswered. The current thread is merely pointing out to
lurkers the position and characteristics of the original poster. This
is very much on topic.
Jim Bennie
<br_unders...@at.pacbell.dot.net> wrote:
> That's ok, though. At least you are studying Talmud. Perhaps some
> day you might come to understand it.
In other words, Mr. Perry knows as little about Judaism as he does
Freemasonry? Perryresearch, indeed. I'll settle for more accurate
research, thanks.
> Because they take them in context and realize that they mean something
> completely different from what you and your leaders, or the salesmen
> who sold you that bill of goods (depending on your degree of
> awareness) want you to think it means.
It wouldn't be the first time someone was snookered by those guys, Gene.
Jim Bennie
PM/DC, No. 44, Vancouver