Oh Lord My God Is There No Help For The Widow's Son ?
John The Reformer
I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged.
Now you folks no I never claimed to be an expert on your hobby.
I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
that particular line was unnecessary.
That being said I have an interest in your organization from a political,
and historical perspective.
This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
with masons.
If only to get some practice in at defending your organization. Believe
me in the responses I have seen so far I should say you are all quite
capable of defending yourself in an intelligent and thoughtfull manner.
Some of you stated that there was a Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress.
Some of you didn't respond to that point and took me up on another.
Some said my understanding of the exact method of using this sign
was wrong or warm or in the ballpark ( I got some e-mails directly
which surprised me quite a bit).
So as I was just going off of memory and maybe having a bit of fun I looked
up a reference.
No I know that rituals have changed over the years and there are concordant
bodies and rites that have differences as well I suppose as regional and
national variations.
But Here Goes Again.
Another phrase (or gesture) used in extreme situations is the Grand
Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress.
A Masonic defendent in court might bury his hands at some point and cry," Oh
Lord My God, is there no help for the widow's son? "
Although that might sound a bit odd to the average listener, it could be
understood as a cry of anguish.
If a masonic judge or juror heard it, they would be honor bound (by a blood
oath) to acquit such a person, or at least fight for a hung jury.
The gesture which accompanies this (or it can be given alone, if necessary)
is for the person to raise his arms over his head (almost as in a hands up
position and then lowering them in three stages, pivoting the forearms at
the elbow until they are perpendicular to the floor, palms down.
Any Mason, seeing that gesture, or hearing the above words would be
oath-bound to do anything possible to save the other Mason from danger,
up to, but not including, the loss of his own life.
DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR
Now the above I took from the source stated above, and it does differ
slightly from the way I initially stated it from my rather poor memory.
The main difference I see is that it says up to but not including, the
loss of life. Perhaps I read that elsewhere or got it mixed up.
The important points are as It are Thus :
1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
4. I would surmise that it is to get Masons out of trouble.
Now although some of you stated that a Mason would never get himself
into trouble or do anything untoward - they are still human.
Additionally the above mentioned distress might have occured during
some sory of "mission" as it were so Masons might think that getting
the brother "off the Hook" was justified as he was serving some sort
of higher purpose.
5. This however doesn't excuse the fact that it is in this land one law
for all, no special treatment or favours.
Thank-you
JOHn
P.S. I am most interested in getting an answer to my point number 3 if
my conjecture is wrong.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Jack Hickey
<gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
>with masons.
Quite so. There is another, very good, newsgroup for that purpose.
>If only to get some practice in at defending your organization.
I don't happen to believe that it needs a defense.
>Some said my understanding of the exact method of using this sign
>was wrong or warm or in the ballpark
My objection was to your statement that "if any Mason denies that it
is done EXACTLY..." (your capitalization) "this way, he is a liar."
Since it is NOT done EXACTLY that way, and you STILL are misquoting
the line (as done in my jurisdiction), then my objection was, and
still is, valid. You still don't have it right, and I have no
obligation to correct you.
>If a masonic judge or juror heard it, they would be honor bound (by a blood
>oath) to acquit such a person, or at least fight for a hung jury.
There IS no "blood oath" as such. The symbolic penalties of
Freemasonry are explained as just precisely that -- symbolic. No
Mason anywhere swears to perform them, and no Mason anywhere swears to
allow them to be inflicted on himself.
There is in the U.S. today, such a thing as a "jury consultant,"
a specialist in helping lawyers pick the best possible jury for their
case. Defense lawyers use them, as do prosecutors.
Any prosecution jury consultant that allowed a jury member to be
empanelled, when a member of the same fraternal organization as the
accused, should hang up his hoodoo bag. The juror could be challenged
and dismissed for cause.
A Masonic judge, knowing the accused to be a member of his own
Fraternity, would likely recuse himself or face mistrial and reversal.
>DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR
If you are depending on Duncan's for your information, this explains
quite a lot.
I often refer people to Duncan's when they ask me about the "secrets"
of Freemasonry; since you can buy a copy for just a few dollars, or
get it out of a library, it rather gives the lie to the idea that
everything about Masonry is "secretive." On the other hand, I've
never told anyone that Duncan's is authoritative, either.
I don't know of any jurisdiction that actually uses the ritual as
given in Duncan's, though it is quite close in some respects; and
widely divergent in others.
>1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
Didn't deny that, obviously.
>2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
>other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
>detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
The ritual sign exists largely for the purpose of the ritual.
I imagine that, if one is in sincere distress, one would want to use a
sign or signal that would be recognized by as many people as possible.
Since the GHS would only be recognized as such by Masons, and since we
are a small (and dwindling) part of the population, it would seem to
defeat its own purpose to use it in a life-or-death situation.
>3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
It is traditional. It has a purpose within the body of that
tradition.
>4. I would surmise that it is to get Masons out of trouble.
Of course you would, since you don't know any better.
>Now although some of you stated that a Mason would never get himself
>into trouble or do anything untoward - they are still human.
Thank you for the polite qualification.
>Additionally the above mentioned distress might have occured during
>some sory of "mission" as it were so Masons might think that getting
>the brother "off the Hook" was justified as he was serving some sort
>of higher purpose.
Getting a little outre, there, I think. What sort of "mission" do
you have in mind?
>5. This however doesn't excuse the fact that it is in this land one law
>for all, no special treatment or favours.
What planet are you posting from, John?
Jack Hickey, MM
Senior Deacon
Isaiah Thomas Lodge
Worcester MA
ri...@my-dejanews.com
For someone with an unprejudiced interest in Freemasonry, your accusation
about Masons getting out of legal trouble by using the Grand Hailing Sign of
Distress is suspiciously anti-Masonic like. I'll play the straight man,
however. To save bandwidth, I will snip those lines except the ones I am
answering.
In article <79h499$k89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am not an anti-mason.
>
> I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged.
>
> That being said I have an interest in your organization from a political,
> and historical perspective.
>
> This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
> with masons.
>
Indeed. Masons founded this forum and left it unmoderated for that purpose.
It has remained unmoderated.
>
> 1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
>
It does.
> 2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
> other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
> detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
>
I will give you a very personal time when the GHSof D was used by one Mason to
me. My Father, a Mason, and I spent all night standing beside my Mother's
deathbed. After twelve very long hours, and forty-three years of marriage, my
mother passed from this Earth with Dad and I holding her hands. Before we
called the nurses in, Dad looked at me, and could not speak. He gave me the
GHSofD and I responded in turn. Until that moment, I never realized the full
import of the sign. His pain and distress was so great, his need so acute,
that nothing else could express it. A Mason would not use the sign unless the
need were such. It would not be used as you have described, and I personally
take offense at the suggestion.
> 3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
>
> 4. I would surmise that it is to get Masons out of trouble.
>
See the above.
> Now although some of you stated that a Mason would never get himself
> into trouble or do anything untoward - they are still human.
>
> Additionally the above mentioned distress might have occured during
> some sory of "mission" as it were so Masons might think that getting
> the brother "off the Hook" was justified as he was serving some sort
> of higher purpose.
>
> 5. This however doesn't excuse the fact that it is in this land one law
> for all, no special treatment or favours.
>
> Thank-you
>
> JOHn
>
> P.S. I am most interested in getting an answer to my point number 3 if
> my conjecture is wrong.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
Your whole assumption is wrong. To begin with, Freemasonry is not about
gaining priviledge, but gaining inner improvement and fellowship. If you
read Masonic literature not printed by anti-Masonic sources and converse with
Mason, you will find that it is the internal qualities of a man which qualify
a man to be made a Mason.
Sure, Masons are human. There are Mason who have undoubtedly broken the
law. I think you will find that they are a much, much , smaller
percentage of the population of prisons than any other group. Not
because they receive a special advantage in court, but because they
simply do not do the type of things to get them there in the first place
with the same frequency other populations in our society do.
As a Mason, one of the lessons taught me that I had an obligation to be a
peaceful and law abiding citizen. If I were ever to break the law in a
manner which caused me to have a court trial, I would not want to have
Masons in the jury. If there were, I would definitely not want them to
know I had been a Mason at one time. Masons tend to be hard where
law-breakers are concerned. Even more so if a criminal was a Mason.
Notice I said *was* a Mason. In all likelyhood, If I committed a crime
and my Lodge knew about it, I would face a Masonic Trial in that Lodge.
If found guilty, I would receive the ultimate penalty of Freemasonry,
expulsion from the Fraternity.
Yes, that is correct. The "blood oaths" you refer to are symbolic parts
of the Ritual. In themselves, the actual penalties of the Obligations
(not oaths) sound horrible. Masons know that they are part of a teaching
lesson. They are a play, if you will, designed to teach the values of
Freemasonry. The actual penalties of breaking the Obligations of
Freemasonry are suspension, or expulsion. They can be invoked in Texas
for such things as drunkeness and being a libertine. If a Mason in this
jurisdiction is found guilty of a crime in a court of law, he is
automatically expelled from Freemasonry. The reality is that before he
committed the crime, he expelled himself by thought and action.
Does this answer your question?
Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, Texas
newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
JunDec735
I have never read the document, "DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR",
to which you have referred, so I cannot speak on its veracity. But in my
travels I have visited lodges in several jurisdictions in the US, and
elsewhere, during which I witnessed ritual degree work that included the
versions of the statement and actions that you have desribed.
In none of those meetings were there wordings exactly like you wrote. This is
very understandable as there is NO Universal body that controls all Freemasonry
and dictates its exact ritual. Each Masonic Jurisdiction establishes its own
ritual and, although the allegory used is the same in most jurisdictions,
differences in wordings and actions do vary.
But I can refute the statement of Masons reacting in a favorable manner towards
its use in a criminal case. In every jurisdiction that I witnessed this degree,
where the words and signs, that you refer to, are taught, there is also an
obligation taken which specifically excluded criminal activity as a reason to
support a Brother Mason.
Mike Beltzer
Senior Deacon
Cuyahoga Falls Lodge #528. Ohio
John The Reformer
ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> John,
>
> For someone with an unprejudiced interest in Freemasonry, your accusation
> about Masons getting out of legal trouble by using the Grand Hailing Sign of
> Distress is suspiciously anti-Masonic like. I'll play the straight man,
> however. To save bandwidth, I will snip those lines except the ones I am
> answering.
JOhn : Maybe they don't use the sign, maybe they know each other already
or they have someone contact that official and let them know that brother
so and so is in "distress" and please help him out. It is only natural
for any outsider to be suspicous of this sort of thing, and I did go
to the trouble to reference some Masonic Literature rather than relying
on conjecture.
> In article <79h499$k89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I am not an anti-mason.
> >
> > I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged.
> >
>
> > That being said I have an interest in your organization from a political,
> > and historical perspective.
> >
> > This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
> > with masons.
> >
>
> Indeed. Masons founded this forum and left it unmoderated for that purpose.
> It has remained unmoderated.
John : Thank-you I won't abuse that privledge as I have many questions.
>
> >
> > 1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
> >
>
> It does.
>
> > 2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
> > other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
> > detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
> >
>
> I will give you a very personal time when the GHSof D was used by one Mason to
> me. My Father, a Mason, and I spent all night standing beside my Mother's
> deathbed. After twelve very long hours, and forty-three years of marriage, my
> mother passed from this Earth with Dad and I holding her hands. Before we
> called the nurses in, Dad looked at me, and could not speak. He gave me the
> GHSofD and I responded in turn. Until that moment, I never realized the full
> import of the sign. His pain and distress was so great, his need so acute,
> that nothing else could express it. A Mason would not use the sign unless the
> need were such. It would not be used as you have described, and I personally
> take offense at the suggestion.
JOhn : condolences.
>
> > 3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
> >
> > 4. I would surmise that it is to get Masons out of trouble.
> >
>
JOHn : See the above.
>
> > Now although some of you stated that a Mason would never get himself
> > into trouble or do anything untoward - they are still human.
> >
> > Additionally the above mentioned distress might have occured during
> > some sory of "mission" as it were so Masons might think that getting
> > the brother "off the Hook" was justified as he was serving some sort
> > of higher purpose.
> >
> > 5. This however doesn't excuse the fact that it is in this land one law
> > for all, no special treatment or favours.
> >
> > Thank-you
> >
> > JOHn
> >
> > P.S. I am most interested in getting an answer to my point number 3 if
> > my conjecture is wrong.
> >
> > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
>
> Your whole assumption is wrong. To begin with, Freemasonry is not about
> gaining priviledge, but gaining inner improvement and fellowship. If you
> read Masonic literature not printed by anti-Masonic sources and converse with
> Mason, you will find that it is the internal qualities of a man which qualify
> a man to be made a Mason.
John : gaining privlege is undoubtabley secondary however I intuetively
think it is still there especially in employment and business arrangements.
>
> Sure, Masons are human. There are Mason who have undoubtedly broken the
> law. I think you will find that they are a much, much , smaller
> percentage of the population of prisons than any other group. Not
> because they receive a special advantage in court, but because they
> simply do not do the type of things to get them there in the first place
> with the same frequency other populations in our society do.
JOhn: Although I don't reside in the U.K. I recently read some info
on the U.K. Offical site of the Grand Lodge or some such. It discussed
the new legislation passed in Parliament where all judges, prosecuters,
and Police now have to declare whether they are members. The reasons
given where evidently some cases that came to the forefront where this
happened. Anyway it was just recently passed, have a look.
>
> As a Mason, one of the lessons taught me that I had an obligation to be a
> peaceful and law abiding citizen. If I were ever to break the law in a
> manner which caused me to have a court trial, I would not want to have
> Masons in the jury. If there were, I would definitely not want them to
> know I had been a Mason at one time. Masons tend to be hard where
> law-breakers are concerned. Even more so if a criminal was a Mason.
> Notice I said *was* a Mason. In all likelyhood, If I committed a crime
> and my Lodge knew about it, I would face a Masonic Trial in that Lodge.
> If found guilty, I would receive the ultimate penalty of Freemasonry,
> expulsion from the Fraternity.
see above
>
> Yes, that is correct. The "blood oaths" you refer to are symbolic parts
> of the Ritual. In themselves, the actual penalties of the Obligations
> (not oaths) sound horrible. Masons know that they are part of a teaching
> lesson. They are a play, if you will, designed to teach the values of
> Freemasonry. The actual penalties of breaking the Obligations of
> Freemasonry are suspension, or expulsion. They can be invoked in Texas
> for such things as drunkeness and being a libertine. If a Mason in this
> jurisdiction is found guilty of a crime in a court of law, he is
> automatically expelled from Freemasonry. The reality is that before he
> committed the crime, he expelled himself by thought and action.
JOhn : they couldnt have always been symbolic, I fail to see what getting
some 18 year old Lewis apprentice to memorize cutting someones throat and
ripping their tongue out by the root then burying their body at high tide mark
does for their moral betterment. Sounds kind of nasty and Occultish to this
PROFANE.
> Does this answer your question?
JOHn : Not entirely, perhaps you could address some of the reservations
I raised above, also I understand in the U.K. they have removed the blood
oaths from the ritual. Is this the case, if so then why not on this side ?
>
> Richard Jackson, PM
> Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
> Corrigan, Texas
> newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
ri...@my-dejanews.com
John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <79hjih$utc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > For someone with an unprejudiced interest in Freemasonry, your accusation
> > about Masons getting out of legal trouble by using the Grand Hailing Sign of
> > Distress is suspiciously anti-Masonic like. I'll play the straight man,
> > however. To save bandwidth, I will snip those lines except the ones I am
> > answering.
>
> JOhn : Maybe they don't use the sign, maybe they know each other already
> or they have someone contact that official and let them know that brother
> so and so is in "distress" and please help him out. It is only natural
> for any outsider to be suspicous of this sort of thing, and I did go
> to the trouble to reference some Masonic Literature rather than relying
> on conjecture.
>
What literature? I have researched Freemasonry from the inside out and never
seen what you mentioned. I do know of one instance in my home town where a
defendant in a criminal case made himself known as a Freemason to the
prosecuting attourney (who was a well known Freemason). That attourney
immediately indicated a side-bar. He asked for and received peremission to
withdraw from the case, giving it over to an assistant. His explanation was
that he wanted no reason for the case to be overturned due to a conflict of
interest. The accused was convicted of wrongful death and given the maximum
sentence possible under the law. The district attourney continued to advise
his assistant in the case and the jury's decision (one of whom I know to be a
Mason) voted guilty is less than an hour.
> >
> > Indeed. Masons founded this forum and left it unmoderated for that purpose.
> > It has remained unmoderated.
>
> John : Thank-you I won't abuse that privledge as I have many questions.
> >
> > >
> > > 1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
> > >
> >
> > It does.
> >
> > > 2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
> > > other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
> > > detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
> > >
> >
> > I will give you a very personal time when the GHSof D was used by one Mason
to
> > me. My Father, a Mason, and I spent all night standing beside my Mother's
> > deathbed. After twelve very long hours, and forty-three years of marriage,
my
> > mother passed from this Earth with Dad and I holding her hands. Before we
> > called the nurses in, Dad looked at me, and could not speak. He gave me the
> > GHSofD and I responded in turn. Until that moment, I never realized the
full
> > import of the sign. His pain and distress was so great, his need so acute,
> > that nothing else could express it. A Mason would not use the sign unless
the
> > need were such. It would not be used as you have described, and I
personally
> > take offense at the suggestion.
>
> JOhn : condolences.
Thank you. This has been some years ago. The reason I told the story was to
emphasize the real use of the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress. When a Mason is
in such distress that he can not speak, when the circumstances are dire in the
extreme and he is among strangers, the sign can bring the friendship of a
Brother to his side to relieve him and share his pain.
> > Your whole assumption is wrong. To begin with, Freemasonry is not about
> > gaining priviledge, but gaining inner improvement and fellowship. If you
> > read Masonic literature not printed by anti-Masonic sources and converse
with
> > Mason, you will find that it is the internal qualities of a man which
qualify
> > a man to be made a Mason.
>
> John : gaining privlege is undoubtabley secondary however I intuetively
> think it is still there especially in employment and business arrangements.
> >
I've been a Mason for quite a few years now and not found it to give me any
advantage in buying an automobile. Nor has Freemasonry guaranteed me
promotion within my profession. This in spite of the fact that for twenty
four of the last twenty-five years, my immediate supreriors at the school
district where I teach have been Freemasons as well as some members on the
Board of Trustees.
It is a natural thing to purchase from those people you know, and like. I
have purchases, for example, automobiles over the years from Brother Masons.
I have also purchase automobiles from non-Masons when they had the same unit
and sold it at a better price. Friendship is one thing, business another.
Everything being equal, I would rather do business with a Mason. Everything
being equal, wouldn't you rather do business with someone you know and trust
rather tan a stranger?
> JOhn: Although I don't reside in the U.K. I recently read some info
> on the U.K. Offical site of the Grand Lodge or some such. It discussed
> the new legislation passed in Parliament where all judges, prosecuters,
> and Police now have to declare whether they are members. The reasons
> given where evidently some cases that came to the forefront where this
> happened. Anyway it was just recently passed, have a look.
> >
There have been alledged cases where there is collaboration or corruption. I
personally have nothing against all public servants disclosing their Masonic
membership. I do think it is wrong to only single out Freemasonry. If you
wish to make every public servand disclose every aspect of their private
business as concerns organizations, then let us have the pubically proclaim
their church affiliation (or lack there-of), all clubs and organizations they
belong to, their full business interests (including stock market
investments), etc. etc. What is good for the goose is good for the gander,
wouldn't you say?
> >
> > Yes, that is correct. The "blood oaths" you refer to are symbolic parts
> > of the Ritual. In themselves, the actual penalties of the Obligations
> > (not oaths) sound horrible. Masons know that they are part of a teaching
> > lesson. They are a play, if you will, designed to teach the values of
> > Freemasonry. The actual penalties of breaking the Obligations of
> > Freemasonry are suspension, or expulsion. They can be invoked in Texas
> > for such things as drunkeness and being a libertine. If a Mason in this
> > jurisdiction is found guilty of a crime in a court of law, he is
> > automatically expelled from Freemasonry. The reality is that before he
> > committed the crime, he expelled himself by thought and action.
>
> JOhn : they couldnt have always been symbolic, I fail to see what getting
> some 18 year old Lewis apprentice to memorize cutting someones throat and
> ripping their tongue out by the root then burying their body at high tide mark
> does for their moral betterment. Sounds kind of nasty and Occultish to this
> PROFANE.
>
As far as I know, there has never been a case where anyone has been found
guilty of carrying out the symbolic penalties of Freemasonry. There have
been several instances where imposters, for some idiots have injured and
killed people claiming do so in Masonic Initiation, but no substanciated
evidence. If you only take the last three hundred years or so, considering
there are so many Masons, don't you think that speaks for itself.
You call yourself Profane. I assume you are using the same meaning that
Freemasonry does, unknowledgable. I agree, it does sound nasty and
occultish. So do many of the Initiations used by college fraternities and
sororities. As I stated, it is part of a teaching lesson in a play.
> > Does this answer your question?
>
> JOHn : Not entirely, perhaps you could address some of the reservations
> I raised above, also I understand in the U.K. they have removed the blood
> oaths from the ritual. Is this the case, if so then why not on this side ?
There are no blood oaths. There is an Obligation taken for each degree. The
reasons the Obligations are the way they are is one word. Tradition. Masons
have many traditions. We enjoy the traditions of Freemasonry. Personally, I
don't think we should change our Ritual because a few conspiracy theorists
and ultra-conservative people calling themselves Christians don't like the
wording. We do not ask you or anyone else to become a member of our
Fraternity. You have to ask for yourself, and then pass inspection before
being accepted to become one of us. If you don't like the wording, don't
apply. No one is asking you to. If I enter a business in a mall which has
nothing I wish to purchase, I don't stay there and complain, I leave and go
somewhere that has what I want. Those who attack Freemasonry are welcomed to
do the same.
eas...@redriverok.com
>
> I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged
Well then I agree with you on that. As Sr. Warden of my lodge, past patron
of my OES chapter, 32d Scottish Rite, Shriner, and Sr. Demolay, I would
always appose special treatment for the few or privelaged. That is why
masonry actually demands that its members hold to a HIGHER standard of moral
conduct. That is why our charity is open to all. I am currently working with
my lodge to raise money for the liver transplant of a women who has NO
connections to masonry whatsoever.
.
>
> Now you folks no I never claimed to be an expert on your hobby.
Well you claimed knowledge of something of which you had no knowledge.
>
> I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
> who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
> that particular line was unnecessary.
Apology accepted. It does take a big man to apologize in a newsgroup.
>
> That being said I have an interest in your organization from a political,
> and historical perspective.
>
> This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
> with masons.
Then ask your questions, don't make unfounded accusations.
>
> If only to get some practice in at defending your organization. Believe
> me in the responses I have seen so far I should say you are all quite
> capable of defending yourself in an intelligent and thoughtfull manner.
>
I did, yet you never responded to my post.
> Some of you stated that there was a Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress.
>
> Some of you didn't respond to that point and took me up on another.
>
> Some said my understanding of the exact method of using this sign
> was wrong or warm or in the ballpark ( I got some e-mails directly
> which surprised me quite a bit).
>
> So as I was just going off of memory and maybe having a bit of fun I looked
> up a reference.
>
> No I know that rituals have changed over the years and there are concordant
> bodies and rites that have differences as well I suppose as regional and
> national variations.
>
> But Here Goes Again.
>
> Another phrase (or gesture) used in extreme situations is the Grand
> Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress.
>
> A Masonic defendent in court might bury his hands at some point and cry," Oh
> Lord My God, is there no help for the widow's son? "
>
> Although that might sound a bit odd to the average listener, it could be
> understood as a cry of anguish.
>
> If a masonic judge or juror heard it, they would be honor bound (by a blood
> oath) to acquit such a person, or at least fight for a hung jury.
That is simply not true. I gave you a case of a masonic judge who gave a
mason from his own lodge the maximum punishment allowed. We had a mason in
my town 10 years ago, also the president of the local university, who was
accused of embezzlement. The lodge had a masonic trial and he was convicted
and expelled by us, before the state court even had gotten started. Any
mason trying to use masonry as a cover for his crimes will be prompltly
expelled from the order.
>
> The gesture which accompanies this (or it can be given alone, if necessary)
> is for the person to raise his arms over his head (almost as in a hands up
> position and then lowering them in three stages, pivoting the forearms at
> the elbow until they are perpendicular to the floor, palms down.
>
> Any Mason, seeing that gesture, or hearing the above words would be
> oath-bound to do anything possible to save the other Mason from danger,
> up to, but not including, the loss of his own life.
>
> DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR
Duncans ritual has been shown to be in error many, many times. Why do anti's
keep quoting it???
>
> Now the above I took from the source stated above, and it does differ
> slightly from the way I initially stated it from my rather poor memory.
> The main difference I see is that it says up to but not including, the
> loss of life. Perhaps I read that elsewhere or got it mixed up.
>
> The important points are as It are Thus :
>
> 1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
Yes that is correct.
>
> 2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
> other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
> detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
>
> 3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
>
> 4. I would surmise that it is to get Masons out of trouble.
>
No it is not. At least not the kind of trouble you mention.
> Now although some of you stated that a Mason would never get himself
> into trouble or do anything untoward - they are still human.
>
> Additionally the above mentioned distress might have occured during
> some sory of "mission" as it were so Masons might think that getting
> the brother "off the Hook" was justified as he was serving some sort
> of higher purpose.
>
> 5. This however doesn't excuse the fact that it is in this land one law
> for all, no special treatment or favours.
And I have given you now too cases where masons where given STICTER
punishemnts by their fellow masons. And yet you still ignore them.
>
> Thank-you
>
> JOHn
>
> P.S. I am most interested in getting an answer to my point number 3 if
> my conjecture is wrong.
>
I keep answering your questions and you keep ignoring my answers.
John The Reformer
Johns Reply: Your explanation is a reasonable one, I'm sure there are
always rotten apples in any barrel. Do you think this may be more
common among masons in higher positions in society ? Politicans and big
wheels always seem to get off entirely or just lightly when they are in hot
water. Maybe they just have better counsel, dunno.
----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : Must be nice.
-----------------------------------------------
> > > Your whole assumption is wrong. To begin with, Freemasonry is not about
> > > gaining priviledge, but gaining inner improvement and fellowship. If you
> > > read Masonic literature not printed by anti-Masonic sources and converse
> with
> > > Mason, you will find that it is the internal qualities of a man which
> qualify
> > > a man to be made a Mason.
> >
> > John : gaining privlege is undoubtabley secondary however I intuetively
> > think it is still there especially in employment and business arrangements.
> > >
>
> I've been a Mason for quite a few years now and not found it to give me any
> advantage in buying an automobile. Nor has Freemasonry guaranteed me
> promotion within my profession. This in spite of the fact that for twenty
> four of the last twenty-five years, my immediate supreriors at the school
> district where I teach have been Freemasons as well as some members on the
> Board of Trustees.
>
> It is a natural thing to purchase from those people you know, and like. I
> have purchases, for example, automobiles over the years from Brother Masons.
> I have also purchase automobiles from non-Masons when they had the same unit
> and sold it at a better price. Friendship is one thing, business
another.
> Everything being equal, I would rather do business with a Mason. Everything
> being equal, wouldn't you rather do business with someone you know and trust
> rather tan a stranger?
--------------------------------------------------------
John : It certainly makes life a little more difficult for non-masons
who may be decent people themselves. If it is simply a case of private
business to private business or merely frequenting an establishment that
you were familiar with then it is not problematic. If however there are
instances where public institutions are involved, which are of course paid
for by everyone then If there was some favouritism in bidding for contract
tenders or hirings, that would be another matter entirely.
--------------------------------------------------------
> > JOhn: Although I don't reside in the U.K. I recently read some info
> > on the U.K. Offical site of the Grand Lodge or some such. It discussed
> > the new legislation passed in Parliament where all judges, prosecuters,
> > and Police now have to declare whether they are members. The reasons
> > given where evidently some cases that came to the forefront where this
> > happened. Anyway it was just recently passed, have a look.
> > >
>
> There have been alledged cases where there is collaboration or corruption. I
> personally have nothing against all public servants disclosing their Masonic
> membership. I do think it is wrong to only single out Freemasonry. If you
> wish to make every public servand disclose every aspect of their private
> business as concerns organizations, then let us have the pubically proclaim
> their church affiliation (or lack there-of), all clubs and organizations they
> belong to, their full business interests (including stock market
> investments), etc. etc. What is good for the goose is good for the gander,
> wouldn't you say?
-------------------------------------------------------
John Reply : I would concur with you completely. If something is
implemented in North America following the U.K. Legislation then it
should apply to every one. I am personnaly put-out when I see businesses
or yellow page ads displaying those fish signs. Of course this fish
sign nonsense is now a war with many people sporting fish signs with Darwin
in their midst. I don't see why masons would have a problem with this, in
fact I think it would be good p.r., and clear the air quite a bit.
----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
John Replys : Quite. However I am sure you like to "kick the tires a bit"
and may be "think it over", and then "shop around" , before making
your "purchase". That really is the dilemma if you are the type of person
who wants to thoroughly research something before making up their minds
or taking a position. A Secret Society or a Society with Secrets
does not lend it self well to the "budget concious" shopper.
Hopefully your a patient salesman.
-------------------------------------------------
Brian Elliott
person first researching Masonry, is that there is no central Masonic
authority. You mention UGLE and then "this side" (of the ocean). There
are, probably, more than 1000 Grand Lodges. Each one is sovereign unto
itself. My Grand Lodge (Grand Lodge A.F. & A.M. of Canada in the Province
of Ontario) can set and interpret ritual and make rules regarding the
Masons and Lodges belonging to it. If my Grand Lodge decides that there
should be no blood oaths, then there will be no blood oaths, in the
jurisdiction of Ontario. We cannot tell the Grand Lodge of New York, next
door to us, that they should not use blood oaths. It is not in the
jurisdiction of GLO -- it is none of our business. All my Grand Lodge can
do is to withdraw recognition of GLNY. All that means is that GLO members
cannot sit in GLNY lodges or have Masonic commmunications with members
there (and vice-versa). There are more than 100 Grand Lodge jurisdictions
in the U.S. There is no one person, or body, which can speak for any two
of these bodies -- each speaks for itself. You cannot accuse Masonry in
general of something unless you are sure that all of these bodies subscribe
to that thing. To discover the gestalt of the brotherhood, this venue is a
valuable resource to you and to others. Ask questions. The brothers will
answer from the perspective of their own learning. You have seen that the
Grand Hailing Sign is different between jurisdictions. I'm not even sure
that "hailing" is how it is spelled in GLO, I don't think so .. I will have
to look it up.
You got a rocky start with this group, none of us likes to be attacked,
especially by information which is incorrect to at least some of us.
For some background information, start at a site such as
http://freemasonry.org and follow the web-ring to visit as many sites as
you like. Specific questions on specific sites or bodies will be easiest
to get replies to. They will also probably bring comparative answers about
other jurisdictions and can be very interesting.
If I can help, e-mail me or another brother and I am sure that we will try
to help to the best of our abilities. My ability is less than many others,
but I will do what I can.
Best wishes
Brian Elliott
Defenders Lodge #590
John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<79k1gm$q44$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
ri...@my-dejanews.com
John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Johns Reply: Your explanation is a reasonable one, I'm sure there are
> always rotten apples in any barrel. Do you think this may be more
> common among masons in higher positions in society ? Politicans and big
> wheels always seem to get off entirely or just lightly when they are in hot
> water. Maybe they just have better counsel, dunno.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
I think it is common among all societies that those in power or those with
the money have more influence and more of the ability to defend themselves in
court or other circumstances. The saying "might makes right" was more than
likely around in some form many years prior to modern Freemasonry. If a man
is a Freemason and a millionaire, is his ability to hire good lawyers and
aviod conviction because he is a Mason, or because he is rich? I suspect
that money is more a factor. So is position.
> > Thank you. This has been some years ago. The reason I told the story was
to
> > emphasize the real use of the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress. When a Mason
is
> > in such distress that he can not speak, when the circumstances are dire in
the
> > extreme and he is among strangers, the sign can bring the friendship of a
> > Brother to his side to relieve him and share his pain.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> JOhn reply : Must be nice.
>
> -----------------------------------------------
All men need friends. One of the rocks upon which the foundation of
Freemasonry is founded is Brotherhood. Being a Brother means sharing
someone's hard times as well as good. Regardless of where I go, I nearly
always meet Brothers. They may not know me, but they and I know we have
common values or we wouldn't be Masons.
Some years ago, one of my uncles had the misfortune to have an annurism (sp?)
rupture in the back of a knee. He and my aunt were in Las Vegas at the time.
His situation was touch and go for a while and he had to stay in the hospital
there for some weeks recovering from the near loss of life and the loss of his
leg. My aunt's funds quickly started running low in the first week.
One of the staff in the hospital was the wife of a Mason. Noticing my
uncles's Masonic ring, she asked my aunt if she could help. This lady and
her husband who had never met my aunt and uncle took my aunt into her house
as a guest until my uncle could travel. They befriended my relatives based
totally upon the need of a Brother and his wife. They took a total stranger
in their house based solely upon the Fraternal bond.
Nice? That word hardly describes it.
> John : It certainly makes life a little more difficult for non-masons
> who may be decent people themselves. If it is simply a case of private
> business to private business or merely frequenting an establishment that
> you were familiar with then it is not problematic. If however there are
> instances where public institutions are involved, which are of course paid
> for by everyone then If there was some favouritism in bidding for contract
> tenders or hirings, that would be another matter entirely.
>
I don't know about Canada, but here there are proceedures which ensure fair
practices in governmental business. In schools, anything over a certain
ammount has to be bid by vendors. The best bid wins.
As I said before. Friendship is friendship. Business is business. All
things being equal, I will do business with a friend first. Since most of my
friends are Masons, that means I deal with other Masons. That does not stop
me from buying from a total stranger is he or she offers the same service or
material at a substancially lower price.
> John Reply : I would concur with you completely. If something is
> implemented in North America following the U.K. Legislation then it
> should apply to every one. I am personnaly put-out when I see businesses
> or yellow page ads displaying those fish signs. Of course this fish
> sign nonsense is now a war with many people sporting fish signs with Darwin
> in their midst. I don't see why masons would have a problem with this, in
> fact I think it would be good p.r., and clear the air quite a bit.
>
I invite you to go to the web site http://www.grand-lodge.org/ and read about
the Grand Lodge of England. There are many links there to UK Freemasonry
which include lodges, the degrees and rituals used at the Lodges, etc. It
may surprize you a bit.
> John Replys : Quite. However I am sure you like to "kick the tires a bit"
> and may be "think it over", and then "shop around" , before making
> your "purchase". That really is the dilemma if you are the type of person
> who wants to thoroughly research something before making up their minds
> or taking a position. A Secret Society or a Society with Secrets
> does not lend it self well to the "budget concious" shopper.
>
> Hopefully your a patient salesman.
>
I understand completely. Prudence is always a good virtue. You should also
be aware that we have many people who come to this newsgroup posing seemingly
innocent questions who have only one agenda regardless of the answers. Antis
are well known here for posing as knowledge seekers when their ultimate
agenda is to discredit and/or defame Freemasonry in any way possible. All of
us who post here have been bitten. Pessimism has become a trait of many
Masons who didn't start out that way on alt.freemasonry. So far, I have
found nothing in your post to indicate a hidden agenda. I am very patient
when dealing with anyone who has a honest desire to learn, if it be
Freemasonry or any other area.
Richard White
John The Reformer wrote in message <79h499$k89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I am not an anti-mason.
Glad to hear it.
>I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged.
I am sure the Freemasons who were selected by the German and Austrian Nazis
would rather have done without being "selected for special treatment" !!
Being put in a Nazi concentration camp was indeed special treatment. It
doesn't necessarily mean more favourable treatment.
>I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
>who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
>that particular line was unnecessary.
Apology accepted.
[.......snipped............]
>Another phrase (or gesture) used in extreme situations is the Grand
>Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress.
I repeat my previous statement in reply to your previous post: "The name
you give does not match any that I was given when raised to the
degree of a Master Mason".
You need to be aware that each masonic jurisdiction has its own ritual,
including its own variation of masonic signs and names for them - mine does
not have the sign you refer to.
Looks like there won't be any "help" for me in an American court ??? :-)
>A Masonic defendent in court might bury his hands at some point and cry,"
Oh
>Lord My God, is there no help for the widow's son? "
He may try this. He would undoubtedly be asked by the Judge to explain his
remark. A failure or refusal to do so would be contempt of court. As we
say: 'Go straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect £200'.
>Although that might sound a bit odd to the average listener, it could be
>understood as a cry of anguish.
I doubt it - I have never heard a cry of anguish like that, or even a report
of one.
>If a masonic judge or juror heard it, they would be honor bound (by a blood
>oath) to acquit such a person, or at least fight for a hung jury.
A Judge or Juror who was a Freemason would be DUTY BOUND to REFUSE the
request for assistance, the Freemasons conditions for "helping" others are
very clearly defined:-
1. to help a friend or brother in time of need WITHOUT detriment to one's
self or connections
2. murder, treason, felony and all other crimes contrary to the laws of God
and the ordinances of the Realm being at all time most especially excepted
In other words a Freemason is told specifically not to help another in an
illegal or immoral way.
>The gesture which accompanies this (or it can be given alone, if necessary)
>is for the person to raise his arms over his head (almost as in a hands up
>position and then lowering them in three stages, pivoting the forearms at
>the elbow until they are perpendicular to the floor, palms down.
This question is a non-sequitur bearing in mind my previous answer.
>Any Mason, seeing that gesture, or hearing the above words would be
>oath-bound to do anything possible to save the other Mason from danger,
>up to, but not including, the loss of his own life.
Likewise, see my points on limitations
> DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR
>Now the above I took from the source stated above, and it does differ
>slightly from the way I initially stated it from my rather poor memory.
I believe Dunan's is outdated, and no longer fully applicable.
[......snipped.....]
>3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
>P.S. I am most interested in getting an answer to my point number 3 if
>my conjecture is wrong.
It seems an interesting perspective of your mentality that a sign requesting
assistance (i.e. a distress signal) must automatically relate to evading
justice in criminal cases. What if the brother were being robbed? Or
was suffering some other form of distress other than the risk of being found
guilty of a crime? After all, when the Titanic sent a distress signal,
no-one assumed that it had been used/sent for an improper purpose. So why
should this assumption be made of Freemasons?
Just to keep you happy, yes there is a "distress" sign - but "not as you
know it Jim".
Regards,
Richard White
PM
Addington Lodge No. 5080
Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
UGLE
Jim Bennie
In <79kjmi$7pe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Johns Reply: Your explanation is a reasonable one, I'm sure there are
> always rotten apples in any barrel. Do you think this may be more
> common among masons in higher positions in society ? Politicans and big
> wheels always seem to get off entirely or just lightly when they are in hot
> water. Maybe they just have better counsel, dunno.
Two things here seem to be more a perception than reality, at least
locally. Just who are these Masonic "politicians and big wheels"
anyway? There isn't a single Mason who is an MLA in Victoria. Not a
single Mason in the federal cabinet. I can think of one mayor, one
councillor and one school trustee from West Vancouver to Hope.
That's got to be somewhere around one percent of the elected
municipal politicians in the Lower Mainland.
Of all the politicians in our province that have gotten into hot
water legally, I can think of only one .. and this goes back a couple
of decades .. who was a Mason. He was a municipal politician who
booted out of his Lodge by his fellow Masons *before* his case came
to a court trial (where he was convicted). So much for "privilege"
and "Masons protecting their own". It's a myth.
> If however there are
> instances where public institutions are involved, which are of course paid
> for by everyone then If there was some favouritism in bidding for contract
> tenders or hirings, that would be another matter entirely.
Agreed.
Jim Bennie
PM Nos. 65 & 44, Vancouver
Eugene Goldman.·.
<gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
*I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
*who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
*that particular line was unnecessary.
Apology accepted.
*Some of you stated that there was a Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress.
Yes there is.
Not at all like you described, and of little consequence to anyone not
a member of the fraternity, but there is, indeed, such a sign.
*If a masonic judge or juror heard it, they would be honor bound (by a blood
*oath) to acquit such a person, or at least fight for a hung jury.
No, not really. You see, in each and every degree ceremony, the
Candidate is admonished several times that NOTHING in Masonry should
take preference over the duty he owes to his Creator, his Country, his
Neighbor or himself. In an example such as you mention, the Judge's
of Jurror's duty to his country would, for any Mason, preclude showing
any favoritism to any litagant on the basis of any fraternal or social
association. The Oaths a Judge and Jurror make take presidence over
any obligations made by Masons.
So, in actual fact, If a masonic judge or juror heard it, they would
be honor bound (by a blood oath) to **do their best job as Judge or
jurror, irrespective of their personal feelings, or fraternal
associatioons**, including (if appropriate given the facts of the
case) conviction and arguement FOR appropriate penalties to be
imposed.
*Any Mason, seeing that gesture, or hearing the above words would be
*oath-bound to do anything possible to save the other Mason from danger,
*up to, but not including, the loss of his own life.
Unless a higher priority precluded his assistance, such higher duties
include those to his Creator, his Country, his Neighbor and himself.
In those cases, the higher duties must prevail.
*Now the above I took from the source stated above, and it does differ
*slightly from the way I initially stated it from my rather poor memory.
*The main difference I see is that it says up to but not including, the
*loss of life. Perhaps I read that elsewhere or got it mixed up.
But you missed the important admonitions made to the Candidate earlier
in the ceremonies that NOTHING in his Obligations, or in Masonry
should EVER preclude those he owes to his DIety, his Country, his
Neighbor or himself.
*The important points are as It are Thus :
*
*1. The Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress Exists.
Yup, sure does.
*2. The Above Sign must obviously exist for some purpose or
*other wise it wouldn't exist - if anything Masonic Rituals are
*detailed and everything has some logical purpose.
Yup.
*3. If it has a purpose what might that be?
The purpose is to teach the wisdom of caring for one's fellow man. To
teach that, as a Mason, he has an obligation to assist those in need,
particularly those who have made a similar obligation to him, so long
as doing so would not interfere in any way with the Important Duty he
owes to his Creator, and those to his Country, his Neighbor and
himself..
*4. I would surmise that it is to get Masons out of trouble.
An interesting, if invalid assumption.
*Now although some of you stated that a Mason would never get himself
*into trouble or do anything untoward - they are still human.
True.
*Additionally the above mentioned distress might have occured during
*some sory of "mission" as it were so Masons might think that getting
*the brother "off the Hook" was justified as he was serving some sort
*of higher purpose.
It might have, but likely didn't.
*5. This however doesn't excuse the fact that it is in this land one law
*for all, no special treatment or favours.
Absolutely, and such principle (along with the governments which
expouse it) is supported, repeatly, in the ceremonies.
*Thank-you
My pleasure.
*P.S. I am most interested in getting an answer to my point number 3 if
*my conjecture is wrong.
It is, and I hope I have done so.
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
Who said that?
Brother Gene .*.
www.blackmountainlodge.net
www.freemason.org
MBBFMN #387
And in case I don't see ya' - Good Afternoon, Good Evening and Good Night!
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 1999. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
John The Reformer
eas...@redriverok.com wrote:
> In article <79h499$k89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I am not an anti-mason.
> >
> > I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged
>
> Well then I agree with you on that. As Sr. Warden of my lodge, past patron
> of my OES chapter, 32d Scottish Rite, Shriner, and Sr. Demolay, I would
> always appose special treatment for the few or privelaged. That is why
> masonry actually demands that its members hold to a HIGHER standard of moral
> conduct. That is why our charity is open to all. I am currently working with
> my lodge to raise money for the liver transplant of a women who has NO
> connections to masonry whatsoever.
> JOHn reply : well done
-------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Now you folks no I never claimed to be an expert on your hobby.
>
> Well you claimed knowledge of something of which you had no knowledge.
-----------------------------------------------
John reply : incorrect. I claimed knowledge of something of which
I had knowledge. I quoted from Duncan's ritual Monitor, a Masonic
source. You said duncan's is inaccurate, please provide me with a
quotation on the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress from a Masonic
reference which is accurate or your claim is simple conjecture
(by the rules of evidence).
----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
> > who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
> > that particular line was unnecessary.
>
> Apology accepted. It does take a big man to apologize in a newsgroup.
>
> >
> > That being said I have an interest in your organization from a political,
> > and historical perspective.
> >
> > This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
> > with masons.
>
> Then ask your questions, don't make unfounded accusations.
----------------------------------------------------------
JOHn reply: the accusations were not unfounded as there has been examples
where masons have used this in a courtroom or with enforcement authorities
successfully or Unsucessfully (please review some of the responses from you
collegues in this forum ).
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > If only to get some practice in at defending your organization. Believe
> > me in the responses I have seen so far I should say you are all quite
> > capable of defending yourself in an intelligent and thoughtfull manner.
> >
>
> I did, yet you never responded to my post.
-----------------------------------------------------
JOhn Reply : I received at least a half dozen lenghthy replys to my
post and I answered half of them which covered the same ground as
yours. Am sorry am only getting around to yours now, no slight
intended.
-----------------------------------------------------------
expelled from the order.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
John reply: what is simply not true ? The quote I gave was DIRECTLY from
Duncan's Ritual Monitor. The responses given by your collegues indicated
that this had happened on occasion but was excedingly rare and usually
unsuccessful. NO Arguement. However is this the case in all areas of
the country or planet ? Are there some backward areas in smaller locals
where this is still going on ? I DON'T KNOW.
There does appear to be some instances of this happening recently in the U.K.
as the British Parliament has recently passed legislation requiring all
Judges, Prosecutors, and Police to sign a statement declaring whether they
are members of masonic lodges or not.
In the debates in Parliament the reasons given for the necessity of this
legislation by the GOVERNMENT where that this sort of thing has gone on
including cases of officers and officals engaging In malfiesence to protect
reputations and careers.
Please contact the Grand Lodge web site in the U.K. to verify this for
yourself. I have no axe to grind, I am not an anti-mason, every one and every
organization can use some improvement, none are perfect.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> > The gesture which accompanies this (or it can be given alone, if necessary)
> > is for the person to raise his arms over his head (almost as in a hands up
> > position and then lowering them in three stages, pivoting the forearms at
> > the elbow until they are perpendicular to the floor, palms down.
> >
> > Any Mason, seeing that gesture, or hearing the above words would be
> > oath-bound to do anything possible to save the other Mason from danger,
> > up to, but not including, the loss of his own life.
> >
> > DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR
>
> Duncans ritual has been shown to be in error many, many times. Why do anti's
> keep quoting it???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : Huh ? It's your ritual monitor, you tell me. If it is in
error why does it exist, why is it on the shelves in public library's?
Who was this Duncan anyway, a senior Mason or official one would assume.
Therefore he obviously had some approval given to his publishing it by
higher authority within your organization.
Maybe there is some disagreement within Masonry on what is and what isn't
the correct interpretation of Ritual.
Ancient vs Antient ? What's that all about anyway ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : I have probably answered some of your points (to my way of
thinking anway) in this post and if you review the responses I made to
your collegues in other posts you may find some more "reasonings" from
me.
Regardevoux
--------------------------------------------------------------------
John The Reformer
---------------------------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : agreed I did get off to a rocky start with this group.
ON first reviewing some of the postings and seeing the foul language
that some where using against some people who where quoting from the
bible I perhaps didn't feel in a particularly "fraternal" mood.
My first posting WAS confrontational, as most of the replys I have
received have been measured I no longer feel the necessity to take
this tact.
Merci
JOHn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John The Reformer
br_...@pacbell.net (Eugene Goldman.·.) wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:07:40 GMT, John The Reformer
> <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> *I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
> *who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
> *that particular line was unnecessary.
>
> Apology accepted.
>
------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : Yes you have, very nicely reasoned.
Regardevoux
----------------------------------------------------
>----- Be Well. Travel with a light heart.
> Who said that?
>
> Brother Gene .*.
> www.blackmountainlodge.net
> www.freemason.org
> MBBFMN #387
> And in case I don't see ya' - Good Afternoon, Good Evening and Good Night!
>
> Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 1999. All rights reserved.
> Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may
be granted to others upon request.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
John The Reformer
-----------------------------------------------------------
JOHn reply : yes thank-you, it is very hard to get to the nub of the matter
on this subject. I'm really not interested in the signs of recognition,
I have been doing some reading on the History of the "Craft" where it
came from it's origins etc.
The only reason I started on this G.H.S.D. business was I was a little put out
by some of the language used in the responses to some of the supposed
"anti's", my impression was this was a highly confrontational venue
so I mistakenly took a highly confrontational tact.
REgardevoux
--------------------------------------------------------------------
John The Reformer
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> John The Reformer wrote in message <79h499$k89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
> >I am anti - special treatment for the few or privledged.
>
> would rather have done without being "selected for special treatment" !!
> Being put in a Nazi concentration camp was indeed special treatment. It
> doesn't necessarily mean more favourable treatment.
>
> Apology accepted.
>
> >Another phrase (or gesture) used in extreme situations is the Grand
> >Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress.
> I repeat my previous statement in reply to your previous post: "The name
> you give does not match any that I was given when raised to the
> degree of a Master Mason".
>
> You need to be aware that each masonic jurisdiction has its own ritual,
> including its own variation of masonic signs and names for them - mine does
> not have the sign you refer to.
>
> Looks like there won't be any "help" for me in an American court ??? :-)
>
> Oh
> >Lord My God, is there no help for the widow's son? "
> remark. A failure or refusal to do so would be contempt of court. As we
> say: 'Go straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect £200'.
>
> >understood as a cry of anguish.
> of one.
>
> request for assistance, the Freemasons conditions for "helping" others are
> very clearly defined:-
>
> 1. to help a friend or brother in time of need WITHOUT detriment to one's
> self or connections
>
> 2. murder, treason, felony and all other crimes contrary to the laws of God
> and the ordinances of the Realm being at all time most especially excepted
>
> In other words a Freemason is told specifically not to help another in an
> illegal or immoral way.
>
> >is for the person to raise his arms over his head (almost as in a hands up
> >position and then lowering them in three stages, pivoting the forearms at
> >the elbow until they are perpendicular to the floor, palms down.
>
>
>
>
>
> [......snipped.....]
>
> It seems an interesting perspective of your mentality that a sign requesting
> assistance (i.e. a distress signal) must automatically relate to evading
> justice in criminal cases. What if the brother were being robbed? Or
> was suffering some other form of distress other than the risk of being found
> guilty of a crime? After all, when the Titanic sent a distress signal,
> no-one assumed that it had been used/sent for an improper purpose. So why
> should this assumption be made of Freemasons?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, yes, yes. The criminal example was the one that was given to me.
As for being robbed or on a sinking ship I would hope that you would
respond equally for assistance whether one used the g.h.s.d. signal
or not.
NOn-masons are people too.
Regardevoux
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Just to keep you happy, yes there is a "distress" sign - but "not as you
> know it Jim".
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
TYC45
Committee and no one has suggested that a Mason used the sign of Grief and
Distress in the courtroom recently.
According to the Select Commitee's report the recent Mason Register has been
introduced to allay public fears about Freemasonry.
I am aware of only one case when a Freemason inadvertantly let it be known in a
courtroom that he was a Freemason, the Judge announced that he was aware that
the defendant was a Freemason and immediately withdrew from the case.
I suspect that most Freemasons would not dare to use a sign of distress in a
courtroom because Masonic rules specifically prohibit lawbreaking, if a Mason
would be stupid enough to use the sign of distress in the courtroom then he
would run the risk of receiving a stiffer sentence than if he did not.
The majority of journalists who report court cases are not Freemasons and as it
is not difficult to find out what the Masonic sign of distress is then a
journalist who recognised the sign of distress being used would certsainly find
it a good story to run, probably on the front page.
In addition sentences are fixed within a scale and a judge who was unduly
lenient would find his decisions overturned in the court of appeal, if a judge
regularly showed favour to Masonic defendants then senior judges would soon ask
the judge why he was giving unduly lenient sentences.
In the legal profession a reputation is everything and any corrupt judge would
soon find himself doing the judicial equivalent of directing traffic or being
forced to resign.
John The Reformer
JOhn Reply : I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of freemasonry,
or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it, certainly
not any means of recognition.
I am constantly amazed when I go by the MaSONIC tEMPLE IN MY TOWN HOW NO ONE
KNOWS WHAT THAT BUILDING IS FOR, MANY THINK IT IS A SYNAGOGUE- I'M NOT
KIDDING.
Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40, I should
say 90% of the populace of that age know zilch about Masonry and you
can carry that forward into "journalists".
The legislation in Britain was not brought forth because of mass public
outcry, it was brought forth as a result of an internal Government Inquiry
looking at a number of criminal investigations, prosecutions, and internal
police and crown personnel matters. It was the recomendations of this
internal, confidential Government Inquiry Report that led to the legislation
being introduced and passed.
The fact is that in the United Kingdom today, the Birthplace of Modern
Freemasonry all Freemasons who are employed as Police Officers, Judges,
Prosecutors or other Legal officials must now REGISTER with the GOVERNMENT.
Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Buck
I thought that I explained all of this to you once before! Why do you persist?
What part did you not understand? Duncan's is only good for 1845 to 1864 and
only in one part of the U.S. and covers at least eight degrees, some of which
don't even exist in some places and, but not inclusive of, in others are
required! Some of this stuff changes from year to year and from place to place.
All those who have replied to you have told you what they can and none will
tell you how to be recognized as a Mason unless you are one and if you are one
then you already know. Some times it is as simple as showing a dues card.
Something that you will find for almost any club or church or whatever. All
have modes of recognition. (See my Elk ears, or was that mouse ears, I am
getting confused by your nonsense.)
Let me give you an example of the kind of grief that you might have from
knowing signs of distress. I was working on a black project, the B-2 Bomber
to be exact. In an area where the U.S. Government didn't even allow radios.
The Emergency PA system came on (for the first time in the history of Northrop
in a black area) and announced that the Space Shuttle had crashed and for all
Northrop employees that had worked on the Space Shuttle to standby.
When I got home, I turned on the news and saw the Shuttle go up in flames and
heard a Mason call out in distress with his last breath.
Trust me, you don't need this grief. You don't have a need to know, you are
not qualified to know, you have not proven a right to know our modes of
recognition and no Mason will give you what you are trying to pry from our
keyboards. In addition, we would have to give you, not one sign of distress
but one for every degree that has one. Let's see that amounts to
approximately sixty or better. How long do you have here?
Mike, MM
--
Live long and prosper.
eas...@redriverok.com
Well allow me to correct you. After several postings you revealed that your
only source of knowledge was Duncan's. At first you did not indicate that.
As to giving you a reference, I will not. Masonry, like every organization
in thw world, has some private matters.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > I apologize for using such unfraternal suggestions that a mason
> > > who denys that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress exists is a Liar,
> > > that particular line was unnecessary.
> >
> > Apology accepted. It does take a big man to apologize in a newsgroup.
> >
> > >
> > > That being said I have an interest in your organization from a political,
> > > and historical perspective.
> > >
> > > This is an open forum, I would assume you would not only want to dialogue
> > > with masons.
> >
> > Then ask your questions, don't make unfounded accusations.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> JOHn reply: the accusations were not unfounded as there has been examples
> where masons have used this in a courtroom or with enforcement authorities
> successfully or Unsucessfully (please review some of the responses from you
> collegues in this forum ).
I have given you examples expressly to the contrary.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > >
> > > If only to get some practice in at defending your organization. Believe
> > > me in the responses I have seen so far I should say you are all quite
> > > capable of defending yourself in an intelligent and thoughtfull manner.
> > >
> >
> > I did, yet you never responded to my post.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> JOhn Reply : I received at least a half dozen lenghthy replys to my
> post and I answered half of them which covered the same ground as
> yours. Am sorry am only getting around to yours now, no slight
> intended.
I can understand that. This is a really busy newsgroup.
It is simply not true that a mason can give some sign or phrase and get off
from a crime. That is what my cases are too illustrate. As to smaller
"locals" I live in Bryan County Oklahoma on the OK/TX state line, I don't
think it gets more backward than that:) Yet we still don't excuse masons for
criminal conduct. In face we demand a higher standard from masons. Any
mason attempting to use masonry to cover crimes is likely to get a STIFFER
penalty.
>
> There does appear to be some instances of this happening recently in the U.K.
> as the British Parliament has recently passed legislation requiring all
> Judges, Prosecutors, and Police to sign a statement declaring whether they
> are members of masonic lodges or not.
>
Well I have no knowledge of masonry in England and cannot comment.
> In the debates in Parliament the reasons given for the necessity of this
> legislation by the GOVERNMENT where that this sort of thing has gone on
> including cases of officers and officals engaging In malfiesence to protect
> reputations and careers.
>
Of course it could be some antimasonic conspiracy theories gone amok... But
again I don't know the situation in England and cannot comment.
> Please contact the Grand Lodge web site in the U.K. to verify this for
> yourself. I have no axe to grind, I am not an anti-mason, every one and every
> organization can use some improvement, none are perfect.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > The gesture which accompanies this (or it can be given alone, if
necessary)
> > > is for the person to raise his arms over his head (almost as in a hands up
> > > position and then lowering them in three stages, pivoting the forearms at
> > > the elbow until they are perpendicular to the floor, palms down.
> > >
> > > Any Mason, seeing that gesture, or hearing the above words would be
> > > oath-bound to do anything possible to save the other Mason from danger,
> > > up to, but not including, the loss of his own life.
> > >
> > > DUNCAN, MALCOLM C., DUNCANS RITUAL MONITOR
> >
> > Duncans ritual has been shown to be in error many, many times. Why do
anti's
> > keep quoting it???
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> JOhn reply : Huh ? It's your ritual monitor, you tell me. If it is in
> error why does it exist, why is it on the shelves in public library's?
It is not my ritual monitor. No masonic monitor includes the esoteric work.
And if you are asking why an book with errors would exist or be in the public
library, then I suggest you take a closer look at libraries. This is the
United states any person can write and publish anything they wish. Libraries
carry many different books, some of which espouse opposing views. Not all can
be correct.
>
> Who was this Duncan anyway, a senior Mason or official one would assume.
NO.
>
> Therefore he obviously had some approval given to his publishing it by
> higher authority within your organization.
>
No, he had no approval to publish anything. This is the United states any
person can write and publish anything they wish.
> Maybe there is some disagreement within Masonry on what is and what isn't
> the correct interpretation of Ritual.
>
Well that is true.
Well then let me state again: THERE IS NO DEATH PENALTY IN MASONRY.
eas...@redriverok.com
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> JOhn Reply : I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of freemasonry,
> or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it, certainly
> not any means of recognition.
Really? IN the U.S. there are 4 million + masons. I rarely meet anyone who
does not know that masonry is a fraternity.
>
> I am constantly amazed when I go by the MaSONIC tEMPLE IN MY TOWN HOW NO ONE
> KNOWS WHAT THAT BUILDING IS FOR, MANY THINK IT IS A SYNAGOGUE- I'M NOT
> KIDDING.
>
then your local lodge is slacking. My lodge is constantly involved in charity
work and is well known in our community.
> Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40, I should
> say 90% of the populace of that age know zilch about Masonry and you
> can carry that forward into "journalists".
Hmmm Must be different in your part of the world.
>
> The legislation in Britain was not brought forth because of mass public
> outcry, it was brought forth as a result of an internal Government Inquiry
> looking at a number of criminal investigations, prosecutions, and internal
> police and crown personnel matters. It was the recomendations of this
> internal, confidential Government Inquiry Report that led to the legislation
> being introduced and passed.
What constitutes "mass public outcry"/???
>
> The fact is that in the United Kingdom today, the Birthplace of Modern
> Freemasonry all Freemasons who are employed as Police Officers, Judges,
> Prosecutors or other Legal officials must now REGISTER with the GOVERNMENT.
>
> Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
Yep, pretty similiar to Germany in the late 1930's just before Hitler tried to
murder all the masons.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Eugene Goldman.·.
<gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
*The fact is that in the United Kingdom today, the Birthplace of Modern
*Freemasonry all Freemasons who are employed as Police Officers, Judges,
*Prosecutors or other Legal officials must now REGISTER with the GOVERNMENT.
*
*Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
I would agree. We went through two similar situations here in the
USA. One in Salem, Mass. a generation or two ago, and one in
Washington headed up by a paranoid politician named McCarthy. Both
were complete embarrasments to the nation as a whole, as they clearly
illustrated that (despite the fact that we are granted certain
freedoms in our Constitution) rule of law, normal human decency and
common sense often take a back seat to political ambition and bigotry.
Sad periods in our national history, and a sad one in the history of
England.
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
Eugene Goldman.·.
<gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
*JOhn reply : Yes you have, very nicely reasoned.
Simple truth, sir.
John The Reformer
------------------------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : There seems to be a pattern of you folks answering the questions
you want to answer (whether I asked them or not ), or responding to points
(whether I made them or not), I believe in Rhetoric it is called begging
the question or building a strawman.
1. Where did I ever say I wanted to know the means of recognition ? I didn't.
2. I don't want to know the means of recognition.
3. I don't care what the means of recognition are.
4. Please don't tell me.
5. The only reason I used the G.M.H.S.D. was to point to the larger issue
of general concerns of the criminal justice system. Re: Masons giving
other Masons special or preferential treatment. Which I AND MANY OTHERS,
consider to be a LEGITIMATE question.
6. Duncans Ritual Whatever - This is the first I have seem of this 1845
business, it's breaking news to me.
7. HOw is a non-mason to engage in a coherent discussion with a mason
about the existance of certain practices if every time they ask a question
they get a) YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO KNOW THIS IT IS OUR PRIVATE MATTER.
OR B) YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THIS IT IS OUR PRIVATE MATTER.
OR c) YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY AN ANTI SO GO AWAY BEFORE WE GET YOU
8. Yes we were all deeply saddened by the Challenger Disaster. Is using the
G.H.S.D. somehow a superior or deeper form of expressing grief than
say crying ?
"Flesh hangs from soul".
"Blessed is the wise person who seeks truth.
When one finds it, one rests upon it forever,
and is not afraid of those who want to disturb one. "
The Book Of Thomas
or The Secret Sayings of the Savior
A Gnostic Gospel
eas...@redriverok.com
Big Ole Snip
>
> JOhn reply : There seems to be a pattern of you folks answering the questions
> you want to answer (whether I asked them or not ), or responding to points
> (whether I made them or not), I believe in Rhetoric it is called begging
> the question or building a strawman.
>
> 1. Where did I ever say I wanted to know the means of recognition ? I didn't.
>
> 2. I don't want to know the means of recognition.
>
> 3. I don't care what the means of recognition are.
>
> 4. Please don't tell me.
>
> 5. The only reason I used the G.M.H.S.D. was to point to the larger issue
> of general concerns of the criminal justice system. Re: Masons giving
> other Masons special or preferential treatment. Which I AND MANY OTHERS,
> consider to be a LEGITIMATE question.
OK if there is preferntial treatment,then that is not right. Yet what I see
is masons holding other masons to a higher standard. Now with that said you
might define exactly what constitutes unacceptable preferential treatment.
By that I mean that people NATURALLY have an affinity for those they share
common ground with. For example if a Highway Patrolman where too pull me
over after I had a couple of drinks he is likely to be quite strict with me,
on the other hand if that same highway patrolmen is a former marine and pulls
over a young man just home from marine bootcamp..... Now is this wrong, or
just the natural affinity people feel for someone they have something in
common with??
>
> 6. Duncans Ritual Whatever - This is the first I have seem of this 1845
> business, it's breaking news to me.
It is true, and it is not used by any grand lodge. You see much of our ritual
is simply not written down at all. That part that is written down is in small
books called "monitors" and is public information.
>
> 7. HOw is a non-mason to engage in a coherent discussion with a mason
> about the existance of certain practices if every time they ask a question
> they get a) YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO KNOW THIS IT IS OUR PRIVATE MATTER.
I have seen several masons, myself included, give you quite forthright
answeers to your questions.
>
> OR B) YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THIS IT IS OUR PRIVATE MATTER.
>
> OR c) YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY AN ANTI SO GO AWAY BEFORE WE GET YOU
>
> 8. Yes we were all deeply saddened by the Challenger Disaster. Is using the
> G.H.S.D. somehow a superior or deeper form of expressing grief than
> say crying ?
I would say no... But I cannot speak for what another man feels.
another big ole snip
Eugene Goldman.·.
<gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
*6. Duncans Ritual Whatever - This is the first I have seem of this 1845
*business, it's breaking news to me.
Had you bothered to look at the publication date of the book you
aledgedly got your "information" from, you would have seen it, and not
have had to have it called to your attention.
*7. HOw is a non-mason to engage in a coherent discussion with a mason
*about the existance of certain practices if every time they ask a question
*they get a) YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO KNOW THIS IT IS OUR PRIVATE MATTER.
*
* OR B) YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THIS IT IS OUR PRIVATE MATTER.
*
* OR c) YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY AN ANTI SO GO AWAY BEFORE WE GET YOU
Simply ask the question. Don't try to tell us what you think you know
about us, don't try to impress us with your research, don't try to
decieve. If you want to know something - ask. Your honest questions
will be answered honestly. Your baiting, deceptive questions will
also be answered in kind. Your choice. Do you want answers or do you
want to proove some point?
Richard White
John The Reformer wrote in message <79p9nt$lr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>JOhn Reply : I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of freemasonry,
>or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it, certainly
>not any means of recognition.
Everyone has "heard" of Freemasonry - although I agree fully that most are
ignorant of the facts pertaining to it.
>I am constantly amazed when I go by the MaSONIC tEMPLE IN MY TOWN HOW NO
ONE
>KNOWS WHAT THAT BUILDING IS FOR, MANY THINK IT IS A SYNAGOGUE- I'M NOT
>KIDDING.
Intriguing - mine has a great big sign on the front saying "Masonic Centre";
I don't think anyone would mistake it for still being the Church that it was
before it was converted.
>Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40, I should
>say 90% of the populace of that age know zilch about Masonry and you
>can carry that forward into "journalists".
As per my reply above - I think not so.
>The legislation in Britain was not brought forth because of mass public
>outcry, it was brought forth as a result of an internal Government Inquiry
>looking at a number of criminal investigations, prosecutions, and internal
>police and crown personnel matters.
Now you are completely wrong !! The legislation arose because of a
combination of a Parliamentary Committee (NOT a "Government Inquiry") which
was chaired by Chris Mullen MP. This is the politician who was previously
described in the Private Eye magazine as "the ...censored... character who
claims to know the identities of the true Birmingham Pub bombers, but
refuses to reveal them". He, and his Labour Party colleagues have been
hostile to Freemasonry, and despite finding NOTHING proven they decided to
recommend the introduction of a register of all English & Welsh Freemasons
involved in the Police, Law and the Judiciary.
>It was the recomendations of this
>internal, confidential Government Inquiry Report that led to the
legislation
>being introduced and passed.
A Parliamentary Committee is NOT the Government. These committees are
formed from backbench MPs who are not members of the Government or
Opposition leadership.
As far as I am aware, no legislation has yet been enacted - it is currently
still proposed. (I am open to correction if anyone has an update)
>The fact is that in the United Kingdom today, the Birthplace of Modern
>Freemasonry all Freemasons who are employed as Police Officers, Judges,
>Prosecutors or other Legal officials must now REGISTER with the GOVERNMENT.
The legislative proposal, announced by Jack Straw MP (the Home Secretary),
stated that the register would initially be VOLUNTARY, but may be made
compulsory if not enough "volunteers" registered.
NOTE: this register will NOT cover Scotland (which has a much higher per
capita level of masonic membership) and this register will NOT cover
**_secret_societies_** (such as Opus Dei, the Catetians etc.) and this
register will not cover other societies where member may discuss something
besides society business.
A good example of this last category would be Golf Clubs. Why does to
junior employee "lose" to his boss at golf? How easy is it for a corrupt
officer and lawyer to concoct a conspiracy over a game of golf - at least
100 yards away from the nearest soul? How difficult in a lodge meeting
with 20 to 100 other people?
>Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
Not really ............... except for the very selective form of, and
distorted propaganda supporting, the legislative proposals.
Eugene Goldman.·.
<whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
*>Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
*
*Not really ............... except for the very selective form of, and
*distorted propaganda supporting, the legislative proposals.
Richard,
I would say it IS serious. Look into the events in this country
called "The Salem Witch Trials" and "The McCarthy Hearings". Rampant
paranoia, cultivating mass hysteria, promoting bigotry and generating
hate toward any group of law abiding citizens is VERY serious.
The USA survived our "dark times", will England?
TYC45
England will endure as it always has, The only time I have seen mass hysteria
in England was following the death of Diana, Princess of Wales.
People openly wept and lined the streets for a woman who was no longer a member
of the Royal family, shops shut for the day and London was bought to a
standstill.
Moving back to the subject, the voluntary Mason register is very much a pet
project of one man, Chris Mullin M.P. The Mason register will probably go when
he does.
Chris Mullins other credentials include being the author of a book which tells
the story of the U.K under a socialist government which borrowed money from the
then Soviet Union to fund nurses wages.
John The Reformer
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> John The Reformer wrote in message <79p9nt$lr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >JOhn Reply : I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of freemasonry,
> >or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it, certainly
> >not any means of recognition.
--------
>
> Everyone has "heard" of Freemasonry - although I agree fully that most are
> ignorant of the facts pertaining to it.
-------------
>
> >I am constantly amazed when I go by the MaSONIC tEMPLE IN MY TOWN HOW NO
> ONE
> >KNOWS WHAT THAT BUILDING IS FOR, MANY THINK IT IS A SYNAGOGUE- I'M NOT
> >KIDDING.
------------
> Intriguing - mine has a great big sign on the front saying "Masonic Centre";
> I don't think anyone would mistake it for still being the Church that it was
> before it was converted.
----------------
>
> >Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40, I should
> >say 90% of the populace of that age know zilch about Masonry and you
> >can carry that forward into "journalists".
------------
> As per my reply above - I think not so.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOhn reply : YUP, I think 90 % is a fairly accurate guesstimate.
Half the population is female - they are not allowed to
become freemasons, only join concordant bodies and
anyway most are too busy with family or career. I should
say in this group it is more probably like 97 %.
Another healthy chunk of the population are immigrants
from the Third World 97% there as well.
Lastly we are left with Males under 40. We Have had the
love and peace generation, the me generation, the now
generation, the generation x, and now the gangsta
generation. I should say that if you got 10 % of this
group knowing anything about masonry assuming they have
even heard of it before you'd be lucky.
This is the current state boys, the "enlightenment"
is complete.
Congratulatons.
YO Homey you be crip or blood ?, I gots ta ax da quezshdun.
No probs dude it's all good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >
> >The legislation in Britain was not brought forth because of mass public
> >outcry, it was brought forth as a result of an internal Government Inquiry
> >looking at a number of criminal investigations, prosecutions, and internal
> >police and crown personnel matters.
>----snip------------------------------------------------------------------
(NOT a "Government Inquiry") which
> was chaired by Chris Mullen MP. This is the politician who was previously
> described in the Private Eye magazine as "the ...censored... character who
> claims to know the identities of the true Birmingham Pub bombers, but
> refuses to reveal them". He, and his Labour Party colleagues have been
> hostile to Freemasonry, and despite finding NOTHING proven they decided to
> recommend the introduction of a register of all English & Welsh Freemasons
> involved in the Police, Law and the Judiciary.
---------------------------------------------------------------
JOHn Reply :
1. YOu just never learn, are you really that thick ?
2. You counter arguement to this "event" is the attack the person or persons
who brought it in by impuning their motives (they're anti's).
DUH !!! No kidding, thanks for the news flash.
3. or they're just nasty or they have their own agenda or, or -give me a
break.
Why don't you try counter arguing the substance of their claims vis specific
cases etc which where brought out at the commons committee with the HOme
Secretary giving his testimony. It is still available in hansard on the House
Web Site.
4. If all you are going to do is continue on this tact your case is
doomed (not that I think this is a bad idea, because I don't. I just
feel there should be full disclosure on all affiliations by public
servants)
5. Masons do have a lot to answer for, there have been numerous cases
of malfiesence, you did bring this on, ON YOUR OWN. You have none to
blame but yourself. Your secretiveness and perennial back-scratching
is bound it build up enmity over a period of time. With the dawn
of the information age events and idea's are moving more rapidly.
6. It is probably only a matter time before this is put into
place in other countries. Not an if, but a when.
7. If they're is co-operation there shouldn't be any reason at all for
you too feel uncomfortable or "hampered". The talk of "NAZI's or
Salem witch hunts is complete Hysteria, AND PARANOIA, something you
are always accusing others of.
8. Parliament is not Government - that's a good one. So what is government
then some faceless apparatchek toiling and manouvering away ala YES PRIME
MINISTER ? PLEEEEAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEE give me a break from the sophistry.
----snip-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> >Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
>
> Not really ............... except for the very selective form of, and
> distorted propaganda supporting, the legislative proposals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOHN :
After me now - Head out of sand, no out, no not in, out, oh I give up.
------------------------------------------------------------------>
> regards,
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>---------------------------------------------------------------
Regards also
St. JOHn the Sublime (formerly john the reformer)
INdependent Researcher and Seeker of Neat Stuff
eas...@redriverok.com
Again, you simply are ignoring the fact that lodges have signs on them, are
listed in the yellow pages, and are usually involved in local charity. A
person being completely oblivious to that would have to be monumentally
obtuse.
BTW , just not being elibile for membership in an organization does not make
one unaware that the organization exists. I am not catholic and therefore
inelligable for the Knights of Columbus, but I am aware that they exist and
basically what they are.
> Another healthy chunk of the population are immigrants
> from the Third World 97% there as well.
>
> Lastly we are left with Males under 40. We Have had the
> love and peace generation, the me generation, the now
> generation, the generation x, and now the gangsta
> generation. I should say that if you got 10 % of this
> group knowing anything about masonry assuming they have
> even heard of it before you'd be lucky.
Yes and how many of those generation X'ers had fathers/uncles/grandfathers
etc who where masons? are you also claiming that simply because they are not
masons that they are blind to the signs on buildings they drive past? You
also ignore the fact that various masonic bodies support college
scholarship's, those younb people tell other people where they got the dough
for college.
>
>
(snip for brevity)
Walter the Reformed
the first letter of any word would you please take your finger off the caps
lock key? THere are many of us here who just can't take you seriously.
THank you,
WAlter THe REformed
John The Reformer <gnos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:79rmi7$5dn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
Richard White
John The Reformer wrote in message <79rmi7$5dn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <79qdgd$955$1...@mendelevium.btinternet.com>,
> "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
<79p9nt$lr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >JTR:-
>> > I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of freemasonry,
>> >or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it,
certainly
>> >not any means of recognition.
>> RW:-
>> Everyone has "heard" of Freemasonry - although I agree fully that most
are
>> ignorant of the facts pertaining to it.
[........... snipped ..............]
>> >JTR:-
>> >Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40, I should
>> >say 90% of the populace of that age know zilch about Masonry and you
>> >can carry that forward into "journalists".
>> RW:-
>> As per my reply above - I think not so.
>JTR:-
>JOhn reply : YUP, I think 90 % is a fairly accurate guesstimate.
>[........... details expounding "YUP" snipped ..........]
RW:-
You have missed the main point of my reply. I was trying to point out that
your 90% are mostly aware of Freemasonry - even if they don't know much or
anything about it.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> >JTR:-
>> >The legislation in Britain was not brought forth because of mass public
>> >outcry, it was brought forth as a result of an internal Government
Inquiry
>> >looking at a number of criminal investigations, prosecutions, and
internal
>> >police and crown personnel matters.
>> RW:-
>> [............significant part of RW reply snipped by JTR
..................]
>> (NOT a "Government Inquiry") which
>> was chaired by Chris Mullen MP. This is the politician who was
previously
>> described in the Private Eye magazine as "the ...censored... character
who
>> claims to know the identities of the true Birmingham Pub bombers, but
>> refuses to reveal them". He, and his Labour Party colleagues have been
>> hostile to Freemasonry, and despite finding NOTHING proven they decided
to
>> recommend the introduction of a register of all English & Welsh
Freemasons
>> involved in the Police, Law and the Judiciary.
RW:-
John, you have snipped out the more significant part of my reply, and then
made the remarks below on the basis of what's left.
The main thrust of my response was that the proposed registration of
Freemasons in police/law/judiciary was the recommendation of the
Parliamentary Select Committee for Home Affairs and NOT an internal
Government inquiry (as you previously stated). I also pointed out that the
registration will be VOLUNTARY, will apply to only Freemasons in
police/law/judiciary in ENGLAND & WALES (i.e. not the whole UK), finally
that (AFAIK) it is not even law yet.
>JTR:-
>1. YOu just never learn, are you really that thick ?
No - I not thick, and neither do I think you are. It seems that, as a
reaction to my correcting some erroneous statements by you, you have resort
to an ad hominem attack on me rather than simply agree your error and carry
on with the thread. I did not accuse you of being "thick", I did not
attack you, I did not do anything other than respond to your post and
correct your mistakes in it.
Should you persist with insulting and uncivil dialogue I shall have to
inform you ISP.
>2. You counter arguement to this "event" is the attack the person or
persons
> who brought it in by impuning their motives (they're anti's).
Chris Mullin is an astute politician. As with all politician, his politics
and motives have to be examined. I cited a report on him carried in
Private Eye (hardly a masonic stooge paper !!) which described his actions
in regard to the Birmingham Pub bombings.
This is HIGHLY relevent, because he is trying to prove / find evidence of
masonic conspiracies in the police and judicial handling of the six bombers
who were convicted and then many years later released after an appeal court
eventually found them not guilty. IF indeed Mullin knew who the guilty
people were all along - then why did he not say so? Is his attack against
Freemasonry here a means to deflect criticism of HIS involvement in the
handling of the investigation?
> DUH !!! No kidding, thanks for the news flash.
>3. or they're just nasty or they have their own agenda or, or -give me a
>break.
My comment about Chris Mullin is the truth - as far as I am aware. It is
also however an aside. You chose to snip out and ignore in this reply the
main part of my response.
>Why don't you try counter arguing the substance of their claims vis
specific
>cases etc which where brought out at the commons committee with the HOme
>Secretary giving his testimony. It is still available in hansard on the
House
>Web Site.
If you want "evidence" try the following web pages:-
Home Affairs Committee 3rd Report
http://internet.lodge.org.uk/dscgi/ds.py/Get/File-65/report.html
Judiciary & Freemasonry
http://internet.lodge.org.uk/dscgi/ds.py/Get/File-21/mullins.htm
What Freemasonry Is
http://www.grand-lodge.org/wfi.htm
Home Affairs - First Report
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199798/cmselect/cmhaf
f/258-i/ha0102.htm
>4. If all you are going to do is continue on this tact your case is
>doomed (not that I think this is a bad idea, because I don't. I just
>feel there should be full disclosure on all affiliations by public
>servants)
I take it that includes Party Political memberships and likewise membership
of or support of Lobby/Pressure groups??? A great many local government
"politically impartial and unbiased" servants are also involved in such
organisations. A common tactic of Labour Party activists is to be a member
in one constituency and be elected as a Councillor there, yet also be
employed by the Council in another constituency.
Will membership of sports clubs (incl. golf clubs) be included in your ideal
of "full disclosure"?
And to revert to a bit of what I stated and you snipped out: what about
real secret societies? (e.g. Opus Dei etc.)
>5. Masons do have a lot to answer for, there have been numerous cases
>of malfiesence, you did bring this on, ON YOUR OWN.
Provide examples: details of case and evidence which demonstrated that
Freemasonry has been responsible for "numerous cases of malfiesence".
After all, you want me to provide this to support my arguments.
>You have none to
>blame but yourself. Your secretiveness and perennial back-scratching
>is bound it build up enmity over a period of time. With the dawn
>of the information age events and idea's are moving more rapidly.
Let's have some examples of "back scratching" shall we??? Perhaps the
Labour Government type will do: you give me a SECRET loan, and in return
when you are investigated by the Inland Revenue for possible tax evasion you
will keep your job as minister responsible for closing tax avoidance
loopholes??? Until someone spills the beans that is.......and they are NOT
Freemasons are they???
>6. It is probably only a matter time before this is put into
>place in other countries. Not an if, but a when.
This is something which I will leave to brethren from other countries to
discuss.
>7. If they're is co-operation there shouldn't be any reason at all for
>you too feel uncomfortable or "hampered". The talk of "NAZI's or
>Salem witch hunts is complete Hysteria, AND PARANOIA, something you
>are always accusing others of.
Did anyone dream in 1929 what would be happening in 1939? The simple fact
is that we are in danger of having a legally sponsored and enforced form of
unfair discrimination against Freemasons - compared with the very opposite
that is legislated for in respect of sexual and racial discrimination. The
latter also including religious and ethnic/nationalist discrimination.
Already there is effective anti-masonic discrimination in the Metropolitan
Police force. NO Freemason will get a job in any specialist agency/unit
there.
And as for "registration", the police have already "penetrated" Grand Lodge
(UGLE). A while back, a friend and brother in the Met. was required to
resign in order to gain a promotion. FACT: about a month after resigning,
and without reporting anything first to his superiors, his boss told him
"well done, I see you've resigned".
To be honest, we don't need another register - the police have already got
one.
>8. Parliament is not Government - that's a good one
Thank you - I thought it was a good point too.
>So what is government
>then some faceless apparatchek toiling and manouvering away ala YES PRIME
>MINISTER ? PLEEEEAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEE give me a break from the sophistry.
Not "Sophistry" but Politics. Even with a 179 seat majority in the
Commons, MPs still have influence on Government proposals, and some have
been modified after taking this into account.
Again, you have missed my point in my previous reply and snipped out what I
stated. The Select Committee consists of backbench MPs - not Government
Ministers. It is these backbench MPs who have targetted Freemasonry. To be
frank, the Government couldn't really be bothered - which is why it is
simply agreeing to the Committee's proposal without any further thought.
The Government is more concerned about the prospect of another scandal
involving ministers - like the Liberian arms fiasco just released.
>> RW:-
>> Not really ............... except for the very selective form of, and
>> distorted propaganda supporting, the legislative proposals.
> JTR:
>After me now - Head out of sand, no out, no not in, out, oh I give up.
RW:-
Sarcasm doesn't really suit you. It certainly doesn't help impress other
readers of this thread with the logic of your arguments.
Regards,
St. John The Sublime
"Walter the Reformed" <wal...@reformed.com> wrote:
> DEar JOhn. WOuld you please do me a favor? WHen you are done capitalizing
> the first letter of any word would you please take your finger off the caps
> lock key? THere are many of us here who just can't take you seriously.
>
> THank you,
>
> WAlter THe REformed
---------------------------------------------------------
WhAtEvEr YoU SaY WaLtEr, aNd ReMeMbEr ReGiStRaTiOn Is QuIcK aNd EaSy,
aNd It'S GoVeRnMeNt PoLiCy (BBC Report March 8 1998 which indicated the)
(policy was now in effect after being tabled)
( the previous month)
>
St. John The Sublime's logic is a pecular system of morality,
veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols, it is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief and truth.
Alistair Rae
I have a couple of points WRT your posting, I have followed the
rest of the thread, but you've now raised a point which requires
some clarification: First one point of detail ;-)
John The Reformer wrote in message
<79o2mr$14a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>John reply : incorrect. I claimed knowledge of something of
which
>I had knowledge. I quoted from Duncan's ritual Monitor, a
Masonic
>source. You said duncan's is inaccurate, please provide me with
a
>quotation on the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress from a Masonic
>reference which is accurate or your claim is simple conjecture
>(by the rules of evidence).
There is no Grand Hailing Sign of Distress
There is a Grand or Royal sign, the Hailing sign
There is a sign of Grief and Distress.
Neither of the above resemble what you initially described.
Your description was of a sign which would have no real
application in a courtroom, I am obligated to go no further with
this.
>
>JOHn reply: the accusations were not unfounded as there has been
examples
>where masons have used this in a courtroom or with enforcement
authorities
>successfully or Unsucessfully (please review some of the
responses from you
>collegues in this forum ).
>
Your description and words imply that one of your sources is a
book called 'The Brotherhood' by Stephen Knight, he made the same
errors. Much of his book relies on the hypothesis that the
'victims' thought that their misfortune was down to 'the masons'
it had very little evidence in it, merely unsupported claims.
>
>There does appear to be some instances of this happening
recently in the U.K.
>as the British Parliament has recently passed legislation
requiring all
>Judges, Prosecutors, and Police to sign a statement declaring
whether they
>are members of masonic lodges or not.
>
>In the debates in Parliament the reasons given for the necessity
of this
>legislation by the GOVERNMENT where that this sort of thing has
gone on
>including cases of officers and officals engaging In malfiesence
to protect
>reputations and careers.
The commitee which instigated this requirement came to the
conclusion that there was nothing in the obligations of
Freemasonry which was contrary to the laws of the country and
none of the allegations made of ill practice could be supported,
but they must do something to allay public concern. To me this
looks like, nobody can actually support anything, but we've got
to do something to keep the vocal minority quiet.
Personally I will quite happily sign a declaration if required,
as long as it also requires me to declare my membership of a
theatre club, a Triathlon club and a Photography club. This
requirement is an infringement of my civil liberties and will
lead to discrimination.
>JOhn reply : Huh ? It's your ritual monitor, you tell me. If it
is in
>error why does it exist, why is it on the shelves in public
library's?
>
>Therefore he obviously had some approval given to his publishing
it by
>higher authority within your organization.
Publishers can publish anything they want, it doesn't have to be
authorised. There are many different rituals. In the UK alone
there are about 7, without including Lady Masons rituals and Co
Masonry. In the USA there are in excess of 50. There is no
definitive document which details the ritual.
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
Alistair Rae
John The Reformer wrote in message
>In article <19990208224039...@ng39.aol.com>,
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>JOhn Reply : I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of
freemasonry,
>or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it,
certainly
>not any means of recognition.
>
In fact the press in the UK is fairly Anti, most lodge buildings
in the UK are easily recognisable, by the sign on the front
saying '.... Masonic Hall....'. The recognitions have been
published in a number of documents, including most major papers.
>>
>Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40,
I'm 28, was inittiated at 25. In Scotland many are initiated at
18. Most of my friends and aquaintences are aware of
Freemasonry.
>The legislation in Britain was not brought forth because of mass
public
>outcry, it was brought forth as a result of an internal
Government Inquiry
>looking at a number of criminal investigations, prosecutions,
and internal
>police and crown personnel matters. It was the recomendations of
this
>internal, confidential Government Inquiry Report that led to the
legislation
>being introduced and passed.
>
Get hold of the document, read it yourself and don't read the
c**p churned out by 'Avengers'. The commitee could not find any
jutification for the allegations, the initial draft of the
recommendations had no mention of a register. This was forced on
the commitee by Chriss Mullins MP, a man who claims to know which
terrorist thugs murdered a large number of innocent people in
Birmingham, but refuses to identify them to the security
services. Make of that mans integrity what you will.
>The fact is that in the United Kingdom today, the Birthplace of
Modern
>Freemasonry all Freemasons who are employed as Police Officers,
Judges,
>Prosecutors or other Legal officials must now REGISTER with the
GOVERNMENT.
If you in the USA were required to declare a membership of a
fraternal, charitable organisation, just what kind of outcry
would there be? This is a serious infringement of civil
liberties and freedom of association. I will declare membership,
if I am also required to declare other memberships, as are my
colleagues!
Yours
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
Alistair Rae
the UK, perhaps that gives us a better perspective on things than
certain other members of this planets population. Having read a
substantial chunk of the presentations made to the committee I am
perfectly aware of what was said, and not said. I have also read
several interviews with Mr Mullins MP where he said that he would
not be happy with the committee result, unless it agreed with
him. The man should be tried for aiding and abetting murder, I
seriously doubt his ability as a public servant and reliability
as a representative of the people.
John The Reformer wrote in message
<79rmi7$5dn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <79qdgd$955$1...@mendelevium.btinternet.com>,
> "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>JOhn reply : YUP, I think 90 % is a fairly accurate guesstimate.
>
> Half the population is female - they are not allowed
to
> become freemasons, only join concordant bodies and
> anyway most are too busy with family or career. I
should
> say in this group it is more probably like 97 %.
And of course they are allowed to join feminine Maosnry and Co
Masonry!
>
> Another healthy chunk of the population are
immigrants
> from the Third World 97% there as well.
Exactly which 'Third World Contries' are you referring to. A
quick glance through my UGLE and GLoS yearbooks reveals hundreds
of Lodges in the ' Third World'
>
> Lastly we are left with Males under 40. We Have had
the
> love and peace generation, the me generation, the
now
> generation, the generation x, and now the gangsta
> generation. I should say that if you got 10 % of
this
> group knowing anything about masonry assuming they
have
> even heard of it before you'd be lucky.
Perhaps where you are, but not here pal!
> (NOT a "Government Inquiry") which
>> was chaired by Chris Mullen MP. This is the politician who
was previously
>> described in the Private Eye magazine as "the ...censored...
character who
>> claims to know the identities of the true Birmingham Pub
bombers, but
>> refuses to reveal them". He, and his Labour Party colleagues
have been
>> hostile to Freemasonry, and despite finding NOTHING proven
they decided to
>> recommend the introduction of a register of all English &
Welsh Freemasons
>> involved in the Police, Law and the Judiciary.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>JOHn Reply :
>
>
>1. YOu just never learn, are you really that thick ?
>
Learn what exactly?
>2. You counter arguement to this "event" is the attack the
person or persons
> who brought it in by impuning their motives (they're anti's).
>
> DUH !!! No kidding, thanks for the news flash.
>
>3. or they're just nasty or they have their own agenda or,
or -give me a
>break.
>
>Why don't you try counter arguing the substance of their claims
vis specific
>cases etc which where brought out at the commons committee with
the HOme
>Secretary giving his testimony. It is still available in hansard
on the House
>Web Site.
>
none of which were particularly supportable beyond the 'and its
all because of the Masons' point!
>4. If all you are going to do is continue on this tact your case
is
>doomed (not that I think this is a bad idea, because I don't. I
just
>feel there should be full disclosure on all affiliations by
public
>servants)
Exactly.
ALL affiliations, where does public servant stop.
I am a member of a Masonic Lodge, a Royal Arch Chapter a Theatre
Club a Triathlon Club and a Photography Club. When everyone is
required to declare all memberships then fair enough, until then
then this 'volountary register' is little short of Fascism.
>
>5. Masons do have a lot to answer for, there have been numerous
cases
>of malfiesence, you did bring this on, ON YOUR OWN. You have
none to
>blame but yourself.
Ehhm. What exactly? Cant find anything particularly
supportable in the documentation.
>8. Parliament is not Government - that's a good one.
It's not. Parliment is a body of elected politicians, qualified
for little else but impressing the ill educated and unthinking
majority in this country. Dont vote the politicians will win!
Governemnt in the UK is made up of the House of Commons and the
House of Lords. The HoC has a number of commitees, one of which
made the recomendation, under the influence of a man who is
little more than an IRA terrorost to persecute a law abiding
fraternity.
>> >Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you say ?
>>
>> Not really ............... except for the very selective form
of, and
>> distorted propaganda supporting, the legislative proposals.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> JOHN :
>
>After me now - Head out of sand, no out, no not in, out, oh I
give up.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
-->
>> regards,
>>
>> Richard White
>> PM
>> Addington Lodge No. 5080
>> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
>> UGLE
>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Regards also
>
>St. JOHn the Sublime (formerly john the reformer)
>INdependent Researcher and Seeker of Neat Stuff
Researcher? Or recycler of conspiracy theory?
St. John The Sublime
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> John The Reformer wrote in message <79rmi7$5dn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <79qdgd$955$1...@mendelevium.btinternet.com>,
> > "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> John The Reformer (JTR) wrote in message
> <79p9nt$lr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >> >JTR:-
> >> > I doubt if many "journalists" have even heard of freemasonry,
> >> >or if they have have heard of it know anything at all about it,
> certainly
> >> >not any means of recognition.
>
> >> RW:-
> >> Everyone has "heard" of Freemasonry - although I agree fully that most
> are
> >> ignorant of the facts pertaining to it.
>
> [........... snipped ..............]
St. John the Sublime Reformer says: If you want me to stop snipping
you, then you stop snipping me. Got it ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >> >JTR:-
> >> >Freemasonry is almost completely unknown by people under 40, I should
> >> >say 90% of the populace of that age know zilch about Masonry and you
> >> >can carry that forward into "journalists".
> >> RW:-
> >> As per my reply above - I think not so.
>
> >JTR:-
> >JOhn reply : YUP, I think 90 % is a fairly accurate guesstimate.
> >[........... details expounding "YUP" snipped ..........]
----------------------------------------------------------------
St. John the Sublime Reformer UNSNIPS Himself :
We have had the love and peace generation, the flower children generation,
the Me generation, the now generation, the x generation, and finally
now, and most sublimely the 'GANSTA' generation.
The "enlightenment" is complete boys.
Congratulations.
Yo, yo, yo, Homey yo be Crip or Blood ? I gots ta know.
No probs dude, iz all good.
Ges don go dissing me, dig ?
Dig home.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
St. John the Sublime Reformer says: sorry R.W. I didn't mean to snip out
the "more significant part of my reply" (R.W.)
No slight intended
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The main thrust of my response was that the proposed registration of
> Freemasons in police/law/judiciary was the recommendation of the
> Parliamentary Select Committee for Home Affairs and NOT an internal
> Government inquiry (as you previously stated). I also pointed out that the
> registration will be VOLUNTARY, will apply to only Freemasons in
> police/law/judiciary in ENGLAND & WALES (i.e. not the whole UK), finally
> that (AFAIK) it is not even law yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
St. John the Sublime REformer Says : WRONGO R.W.
The measures, or policy (don't think it was an actual new piece of legislation
probably an Order in Council) came into effect as OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY
on March 8, 1998 after having been tabled the previous month in the Commons
by Home Secretary The Rt. Hon. Jack Straw - B.B.C. Report March 11, 1998.
Mr. Straw said "Membership of Secret Societies such as Freemasonry can raise
suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is therefore important
the public know the facts."
"I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a secret
society but a society with secrets.
"I think it is widely accepted that one secret they should not be keeping
is who their members are in the criminal justice system."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
impartiallit
>
> >JTR:-
> >1. YOu just never learn, are you really that thick ?
>
> No - I not thick, and neither do I think you are. It seems that, as a
> reaction to my correcting some erroneous statements by you, you have resort
> to an ad hominem attack on me rather than simply agree your error and carry
> on with the thread. I did not accuse you of being "thick", I did not
> attack you, I did not do anything other than respond to your post and
> correct your mistakes in it.
>
> Should you persist with insulting and uncivil dialogue I shall have to
> inform you ISP.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
St. John The Sublime Reformer Says:
"The gravity of old age"
War of the Jews
Joseph ben Mathias "Josephus" A.D. 37 - 100
Royal, Priest, Pharisee, General, Prisoner, Prophet, Seer to
Cesear Titus Flavious, Historian
Steady on old chum.
We're on the same side.
Saying 1 He said "whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings
will not taste death."
Saying 2 Jesus said "Let one who seeks not stop seeking until one finds.
When one finds, one will be disturbed.
When one is disturbed, one will be amazed,
and will rule over all."
The Gospel of Thomas
or
The Secret Sayings of Jesus
----snip--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>------------
>
> Chris Mullin is an astute politician. As with all politician, his politics
> and motives have to be examined. I cited a report on him carried in
> Private Eye (hardly a masonic stooge paper !!)
>
> This is HIGHLY relevent,
--------snip--------------------------------------------------------------
St. John The Sublime Reformer Says:
This IS highly relevant.
You mean there are Masonic Stooge Papers?
Please be so kind to provide me with a list of these Masonic Stooge Papers,
perhaps M.P. Mullen, and Mr. Straw would also be interested in your
information - they may even want to hear your testimony directly on this
before their committee.
This could be your 15 minutes of fame R.W.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sniplet
-----------
> If you want "evidence" try the following web pages:-
>
> Home Affairs Committee 3rd Report
> http://internet.lodge.org.uk/dscgi/ds.py/Get/File-65/report.html
>
> Judiciary & Freemasonry
> http://internet.lodge.org.uk/dscgi/ds.py/Get/File-21/mullins.htm
>
> What Freemasonry Is
> http://www.grand-lodge.org/wfi.htm
>
> Home Affairs - First Report
>
> http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199798/cmselect/cmhaf
> f/258-i/ha0102.htm
----------------------------
St. John the Sublime Reformer Says: thank-you, I have bookmarked them.
---------------------------
sniplet
------->
> And to revert to a bit of what I stated and you snipped out: what about
> real secret societies? (e.g. Opus Dei etc.)
----------
S.J.S.R. says : no arguement from me I think both sides of this little
hidden esoteric war should have their linen aired - you may be pleasantly
surprised which side the general public chooses.
-----------------------------------------------
>
> >5. Masons do have a lot to answer for, there have been numerous cases
> >of malfiesence, you did bring this on, ON YOUR OWN.
>
> Provide examples: details of case and evidence which demonstrated that
> Freemasonry has been responsible for "numerous cases of malfiesence".
> After all, you want me to provide this to support my arguments.
>
>----sniplet------------
S.J.S.R. says: thats what the current subject is, it is probably better
to resolve the government inquiry side first but here goes.
The Dunblaine, Scotland massacre of 17 school children by a crazed gun
toting psycopath. This mass murderer and convicted pedophile had applied
for a gun aquisition permit numerous times and been decline numerous times.
He then became a freemason and subsequently had his permit approved.
During the subsequent Special Police Branch enquiry which was investing
how this lunatic obtained his permit when he was refused it so often, it
determined that he belonged to the same masonic lodge as the police officers
in the station that approved it. The files for his application review have
disappeared however. It is suspected that masons in the local police
department destroyed these files to avoid any embarrasment to themselves
or their lodge.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> >7. If they're is co-operation there shouldn't be any reason at all for
> >you too feel uncomfortable or "hampered". The talk of "NAZI's or
> >Salem witch hunts is complete Hysteria, AND PARANOIA, something you
> >are always accusing others of.
> Did anyone dream in 1929 what would be happening in 1939? The simple fact
> is that we are in danger of having a legally sponsored and enforced form of
> unfair discrimination against Freemasons - compared with the very opposite
> that is legislated for in respect of sexual and racial discrimination. The
> latter also including religious and ethnic/nationalist discrimination.
>
-------------------
S.J.S.R. says : More Hyperbole, Speculation, and Conspiracy Theorys.
------------------
. Already there is effective anti-masonic discrimination in the Metropolitan
> Police force. NO Freemason will get a job in any specialist agency/unit
> there.
>-------------------
S.J.S.R. says : Another scandal ? First I've heard about this one, could
you tell me (if you know) the events leading up to this policy of not
allowing any freemasons in Scotland yard type branches or internal
affairs. There must have been some really serious cases of malfiesence
to bring about this GOVERNMENT POLICY.
-sniplet--------------------------------------------------------
> >8. Parliament is not Government - that's a good one
>
> Thank you - I thought it was a good point too.
>
> >So what is government
> >then some faceless apparatchek toiling and manouvering away ala YES PRIME
> >MINISTER ? PLEEEEAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEE give me a break from the sophistry.
>
> Not "Sophistry" but Politics. Even with a 179 seat majority in the
> Commons, MPs still have influence on Government proposals, and some have
> been modified after taking this into account.
>
>---sniplet-------------------------------
S.J.S.R. says : The government consists of 179 members of parliament, ergo
if one or several or many of those members research, recomend, and enact
a new policy then it is the GOVERNMENT who is making that policy.
There is a transcript (page 19) of a House Select committee where jack
Straw appeared (a jucical committee) where he mentions that although
there was not complete unanimity on this bi-party committee there was
substantial supports from the left and the right side of the house.
It would seem to me this is more than the work of one or two idealogues,
it seems to have broad support both in the public and the political spheres.
-------sniplet-----
> Sarcasm doesn't really suit you. It certainly doesn't help impress other
> readers of this thread with the logic of your arguments.
----------
S.J.S.R. says: if you and your collegues don't "dis" me with sarcasm
then I won't "dis" you.
Dig, Homey ?
---------------------------
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>
>-------------------------------
St. John The Sublime's logic is a pecular system of morality,
veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols, it is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief and truth.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Richard White
You disappoint me. Having proved the falsehood of your story about Thomas
Hamilton (Dunblane murderer) being Freemason in another of your postings,
you just go and repeat the lies here. So again I have to repudiate them.
Please stop wasting everyone's time and patience with this crap, which you
probably got from the recent posting on this subject from that lunatic
Avengers/VOMIT. If you're simply going to parrot his unbelievable
fantasies then nobody with a critical brain is going to believe anything you
say - and will probably just filter your posts out of their in-box.
St. John The Sublime wrote in message <79uisl$n2a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
[...........snipped................]
>> >SJSR/JTR:-
>> >5. Masons do have a lot to answer for, there have been numerous cases
>> >of malfiesence, you did bring this on, ON YOUR OWN.
>> RW:-
>> Provide examples: details of case and evidence which demonstrated that
>> Freemasonry has been responsible for "numerous cases of malfiesence".
>> After all, you want me to provide this to support my arguments.
>SJSR/JTR:-
>S.J.S.R. says: thats what the current subject is, it is probably better
>to resolve the government inquiry side first but here goes.
>The Dunblaine, Scotland massacre of 17 school children by a crazed gun
>toting psycopath. This mass murderer and convicted pedophile had applied
>for a gun aquisition permit numerous times and been decline numerous times.
>He then became a freemason and subsequently had his permit approved.
>During the subsequent Special Police Branch enquiry which was investing
>how this lunatic obtained his permit when he was refused it so often, it
>determined that he belonged to the same masonic lodge as the police
officers
>in the station that approved it. The files for his application review have
>disappeared however. It is suspected that masons in the local police
>department destroyed these files to avoid any embarrasment to themselves
>or their lodge.
I repeat my previous response to this falsehood:-
----------------------------------------------------------
WRONG ! You seem to be prepared to repeat any anti-masonic bullshit
you've been fed (or have "found" by yourself) in a pathetic attempt to
besmirch the good name of Freemasonry. In this case that foul and obscene
character known as "Fluffy" who posts as Avengers/VOMIT and whose actual
name is Todd posted an article claiming that Hamilton was a Freemason:
"http://x10.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/getdoc.xp?AN=439378160&CONTEXT=918690159
.960954552&hitnum=2".
This lie about Thomas Hamilton being a member of a Lodge under the Grand
Lodge of Scotland has already been dealt with so many times that I didn't
realise anyone would be so stupid as to try it on again.
As recently as the 2nd of this month this year (February 1999) it was
responded to quite succinctly by Bro. Jim Bennie in a newsgroup posting to
THIS newsgroup - read it for yourself:
"http://x10.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/getdoc.xp?AN=439733610&CONTEXT=918689839
.961020015&hitnum=0".
This is what the Official Report of the investigation into the shootings had
to say (in chapter five of the report):-
"5.6 Thomas Hamilton harboured a long-standing grievance against the
Scouts and the police. In the large volume of correspondence which he
generated a recurring theme is his assertion that the police were biased in
favour of the "brotherhood of masons" and that there was a "brotherhood"
link between the Scouts and the police. In passing it may be noted that this
together with evidence given by Mr Deuchars indicated that Thomas Hamilton
had never been a freemason. I am satisfied that he was not a member of the
masons. "
Does it need to be clearer??????
If you don't believe me then read it for yourself. The WHOLE report is on
the web at:
http://www.official-documents.co.uk/document/scottish/dunblane
Alistair Rae
>St. John the Sublime REformer Says : WRONGO R.W.
>
>The measures, or policy (don't think it was an actual new piece
of legislation
>probably an Order in Council) came into effect as OFFICIAL
GOVERNMENT POLICY
>on March 8, 1998 after having been tabled the previous month in
the Commons
>by Home Secretary The Rt. Hon. Jack Straw - B.B.C. Report March
11, 1998.
>
>Mr. Straw said "Membership of Secret Societies such as
Freemasonry can raise
>suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is
therefore important
>the public know the facts."
Note the use of the term Secret Society, which Freemasonry is
not.
>
>"I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a
secret
>society but a society with secrets.
Neither is it that.
>S.J.S.R. says: thats what the current subject is, it is probably
better
>to resolve the government inquiry side first but here goes.
>
>The Dunblaine, Scotland massacre of 17 school children by a
crazed gun
>toting psycopath. This mass murderer and convicted pedophile had
applied
>for a gun aquisition permit numerous times and been decline
numerous times.
>He then became a freemason and subsequently had his permit
approved.
>During the subsequent Special Police Branch enquiry which was
investing
>how this lunatic obtained his permit when he was refused it so
often, it
>determined that he belonged to the same masonic lodge as the
police officers
>in the station that approved it. The files for his application
review have
>disappeared however. It is suspected that masons in the local
police
>department destroyed these files to avoid any embarrasment to
themselves
>or their lodge.
Can you actually support this statement? Bearing in mind that
there is no documentary evidence of any kind to be found I'd be
surprised.
This allegation was originally printed in the Scottish Daily
Record, the report contained a lot of speculation and no
evidence, a retraction and apology was later printed by the
paper.
The 'Record' is a virulently Anti paper, frequently twisting
stories to include Freemasonry and criticise it. A recent
article about a murder, in a street outside a Masonic Hall, spent
more space discussing the Hall, and its purpose than it did the
murder, or the victim. Neither victim or perpetrators were
Masons, and it was completely irrelavent. Since this paper has
an apparent agenda the veracity of its other reports is seriously
in doubt.
>
>S.J.S.R. says : The government consists of 179 members of
parliament, ergo
>if one or several or many of those members research, recomend,
and enact
>a new policy then it is the GOVERNMENT who is making that
policy.
Again perhaps you might like to check your facts regarding the
structure of the UK Government.
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
Why does thunder sound delicate?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Remove the Engineering Solution in the reply to address
St. John The Sublime
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Dear John",
>
> You disappoint me. Having proved the falsehood of your story about Thomas
> Hamilton (Dunblane murderer) being Freemason in another of your postings,
> you just go and repeat the lies here. So again I have to repudiate them.
------------------------------------------------
You havn't "proved" a damn thing richard.
You selectively quote back from the report.
The report did not give a blow by blow of hamiltons application process.
The report did not give copies of his application as attachment.
The report did not clear the police of wrongdoing AT ALL.
IN fact the report VILLIFIED the local police.
chapter 6 " I find the reasons which were given (by central scotland
police) and accepted for him being authorized to hold more than one
permit were UNSATISFACTORY.
"The authority which he recieved for possession of more than one firearm
was received WITHOUT AN ENQUIRY, AS WAS REQUIRED.
Chapter 7 "The fact that Hamilton was able to retain his firearms
and ammunition RAISES QUESTIONS NOT MERELY IN THE WAY IN WHICH
CENTRAL SCOTLAND POLICE DISCHARGED THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES BUT AS
TO THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE.
Now as it was a Tory Government which oversaw the report, and as half
of Majors Cabinet were masons, it is highly unlikely that such a
delicate topic would come out in a official report.
I am currently making an enquiry to obtain a copy of the accusation
that Hamilton was a Mason.
As soon as I have it I will send you a note.
Until that time I will not restate THIS particuar accusation.
In it's place I give you the following statement of David Thomas,
former head of the Monmouthshire CID.
"The insidious effect of Freemasonry among the police has to be
experienced to be believed."
Page 49
The Brotherhood
Stephan Knight
"THE EXPLOSIVE EXPOSE' OF THE SECRET WORLD OF THE FREEMASONS"
Grafton Books
A Division of the Collins Publishing Group
8 Grafton Stree, London W1X 3LA
First published in Great Britain by
Granada Publishing, 1983.
--------------------
>sniplet
-----------------------------
> WRONG ! You seem to be prepared to repeat any anti-masonic bullshit
> you've been fed (or have "found" by yourself) in a pathetic attempt to
> besmirch the good name of Freemasonry. In this case that foul and obscene
> character known as "Fluffy" who posts as Avengers/VOMIT and whose actual
> name is Todd posted an article claiming that Hamilton was a Freemason:
> "http://x10.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/getdoc.xp?AN=439378160&CONTEXT=918690159
> .960954552&hitnum=2".
------------------------
John : What was that bit you said in your last posting to me about"threatening
to report me to my Isp" on account of "abusive language" ?
Get a GRIP on yourself man, this is not Larry King Live.
-------------------------
>
> As recently as the 2nd of this month this year (February 1999) it was
> responded to quite succinctly by Bro. Jim Bennie in a newsgroup posting to
> THIS newsgroup - read it for yourself:
> "http://x10.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/getdoc.xp?AN=439733610&CONTEXT=918689839
> .961020015&hitnum=0".
----------------------------
JOhn : I wasn't around then.
------------------------
>
> This is what the Official Report of the investigation into the shootings had
> to say (in chapter five of the report):-
>
> "5.6 Thomas Hamilton harboured a long-standing grievance against the
> Scouts and the police. In the large volume of correspondence which he
> generated a recurring theme is his assertion that the police were biased in
> favour of the "brotherhood of masons" and that there was a "brotherhood"
> link between the Scouts and the police. In passing it may be noted that this
> together with evidence given by Mr Deuchars indicated that Thomas Hamilton
> had never been a freemason. I am satisfied that he was not a member of the
> masons. "
>
> Does it need to be clearer??????
-----------------------------------------------------
John says : see above, however it is obvious by the inclusion of
this "masonic connection angle" that the inquiry did have some
concerns that Hamilton might have been a Freemason.
Why would they think that ?
Answer: There had obviously been an accusation or accusations that he
HAD been a freemason.
THEY just were unable to prove the accusation as a result of the
testimony of a certain Mr. Dechars.
I don't know who this Mr. Dechars is but if he was to testify to
the fact of whether Hamilton was a Freemason it is probable that
he was an official of the local lodge.
In otherwords he is in a conflict of interest on this matter.
I don't know whether any membership records of the local lodge
were supenoed, as there is no attachment or reference. So the
testimony of Mr. Dechars is unsubstantiated.
Hopefully there are some records of whether this occurred.
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>
>
St. John The Sublime's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols; it is based on his
St. John The Sublime
"Alistair Rae" <Engineering_S...@iee.org> wrote:
>
> St. John The Sublime wrote in message
> <79uisl$n2a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> >
> >The measures, or policy (don't think it was an actual new piece
> of legislation
> >probably an Order in Council) came into effect as OFFICIAL
> GOVERNMENT POLICY
> >on March 8, 1998 after having been tabled the previous month in
> the Commons
> >by Home Secretary The Rt. Hon. Jack Straw - B.B.C. Report March
> 11, 1998.
> >
> >Mr. Straw said "Membership of Secret Societies such as
> Freemasonry can raise
> >suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is
> therefore important
> >the public know the facts."
>
> not.
>
> >
> secret
> >society but a society with secrets.
>
--------------------------------
St. John The Sublime Reformer says: sorry chum that is the standard
company line in North America.
--------------------
>
> >S.J.S.R. says: thats what the current subject is, it is probably
> better
> >to resolve the government inquiry side first but here goes.
> >
> >The Dunblaine, Scotland massacre of 17 school children by a
> crazed gun
> >toting psycopath. This mass murderer and convicted pedophile had
> applied
> >for a gun aquisition permit numerous times and been decline
> numerous times.
> >He then became a freemason and subsequently had his permit
> approved.
> >During the subsequent Special Police Branch enquiry which was
> investing
> >how this lunatic obtained his permit when he was refused it so
> often, it
> >determined that he belonged to the same masonic lodge as the
> police officers
> >in the station that approved it. The files for his application
> review have
> >disappeared however. It is suspected that masons in the local
> police
> >department destroyed these files to avoid any embarrasment to
> themselves
> >or their lodge.
>
> Can you actually support this statement? Bearing in mind that
> there is no documentary evidence of any kind to be found I'd be
> surprised.
---------------------
John says: What do you mean by support ?
--------------------------
>
> This allegation was originally printed in the Scottish Daily
> Record, the report contained a lot of speculation and no
> evidence, a retraction and apology was later printed by the
> paper.
>
> The 'Record' is a virulently Anti paper, frequently twisting
> stories to include Freemasonry and criticise it. A recent
> article about a murder, in a street outside a Masonic Hall, spent
> more space discussing the Hall, and its purpose than it did the
> murder, or the victim. Neither victim or perpetrators were
> Masons, and it was completely irrelavent. Since this paper has
> an apparent agenda the veracity of its other reports is seriously
> in doubt.
----------------------------------------------
JOhn says: thanks for the lead, hopefully this newspaper's archives
are available on the web
-------------------------------
>
> >
> >S.J.S.R. says : The government consists of 179 members of
> parliament, ergo
> >if one or several or many of those members research, recomend,
> and enact
> >a new policy then it is the GOVERNMENT who is making that
> policy.
>
> Again perhaps you might like to check your facts regarding the
> structure of the UK Government.
----------------------------------------
I am fully aware of the facts regarding the structure of the UK government
as the Queen of Canada has some of her homes there.
The Government consists of elected officials, that's why it is called
a democracy.
Whichever party wins the most seats in a general election in the
U.K. is called by the Queen of Canada to form a Government.
The leader of the said party then presents his cabinet to the
Queen of Canada who decides if she approves of the government
for Great Britain.
After the Queen of Canada has done this the Government goes about it's
business which includes cabinet ministers (such as Home Secretary
Straw) and parliamentary committees (such as MP Cullen's).
This is the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland, a Commonwealth of Canada.
Any decisions or directions Cabinet Ministers or Committees take is
approved by the Governments Priorities and Planning Committee then
becomes government policy.
Ergo the new policy requiring All Freemasons who are Police, Judges,
Magistrates, Judicial employees, Prison Guards, or Parole Officers
must register IS A GOVERNMENT POLICY.
The Head of Government for the United Kingdom, the Queen of Canada
of course has final approval.
Evidently she and the Prince of Wales HEARTILY approve of the policy
of REGISTERING FREEMASONS.
There seems to be more than only two people behind this particular
anti-masonic conspiracy, adding the Queen of Canada and the Prince
of Wales (heir to the throne of Canada) means we now have a conspiracy of
at least four members!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------->
St. John The Sublime's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols; it is based on his
TYC45
retardation and illustrated by his Postings.
It is based on his three grand symbols of mental obfuscation, repetition and
lies.
Chuck Mize
St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:79vrt8$s2k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>
>"The insidious effect of Freemasonry among the police has to be
>experienced to be believed."
>
>Page 49
>The Brotherhood
>Stephan Knight
>
>"THE EXPLOSIVE EXPOSE' OF THE SECRET WORLD OF THE FREEMASONS"
>
>Grafton Books
>A Division of the Collins Publishing Group
>8 Grafton Stree, London W1X 3LA
>
>First published in Great Britain by
>Granada Publishing, 1983.
This is the book you use to prove all of your paranoid rantings? You should
call yourself St. John the Duped and Mislead...You do realize that you have
now dropped all pretense to being anything other than a regular old,
run-of-the-mill anti, don't you?
Chuck Mize
Sherwood-Midday Lodge #164
Beaverton Lodge #100
Portland, OR
Alistair Rae
St. John The Sublime wrote in message
>In article <hTHw2.5361$cQ5....@nnrp2.clara.net>,
> "Alistair Rae" <Engineering_S...@iee.org> wrote:
The files for his application
>> review have
>> >disappeared however. It is suspected that masons in the local
>> police
>> >department destroyed these files to avoid any embarrasment to
>> themselves
>> >or their lodge.
>>
>> Can you actually support this statement? Bearing in mind that
>> there is no documentary evidence of any kind to be found I'd
be
>> surprised.
>
>---------------------
>
>John says: What do you mean by support ?
>
Have you any evidence for this statement, or is this merely
speculation or second hand rumour mongering. If you can justify
a statement of this kind then I am sure there are many bodies who
would be interested to hear it, not least the Police :)
>> >
>> >S.J.S.R. says : The government consists of 179 members of
>> parliament, ergo
>> >if one or several or many of those members research,
recomend,
>> and enact
>> >a new policy then it is the GOVERNMENT who is making that
>> policy.
>>
>> Again perhaps you might like to check your facts regarding the
>> structure of the UK Government.
>
>----------------------------------------
>
>I am fully aware of the facts regarding the structure of the UK
government
>as the Queen of Canada has some of her homes there.
>
Perhaps in that case you might like to note that Parliment is not
made up of 179 sitting members. The laobour party currently has
a majority of 179.
>The Government consists of elected officials, that's why it is
called
>a democracy.
>
The Govt is formed of 3 bodies. The house of Commons, the
members of which are elected, The house of Lords, who are members
by virtue of their position, and the executive who are employed.
>Whichever party wins the most seats in a general election in the
>U.K. is called by the Queen of Canada to form a Government.
>
>The leader of the said party then presents his cabinet to the
>Queen of Canada who decides if she approves of the government
>for Great Britain.
>
>After the Queen of Canada has done this the Government goes
about it's
>business which includes cabinet ministers (such as Home
Secretary
>Straw) and parliamentary committees (such as MP Cullen's).
>
>This is the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain
and
>Northern Ireland, a Commonwealth of Canada.
>
>Any decisions or directions Cabinet Ministers or Committees take
is
>approved by the Governments Priorities and Planning Committee
then
>becomes government policy.
After it has been discussed and voted on in the two houses,
through numerous revisions and rewrites.
>
>Ergo the new policy requiring All Freemasons who are Police,
Judges,
>Magistrates, Judicial employees, Prison Guards, or Parole
Officers
>must register IS A GOVERNMENT POLICY.
No its not, it is at present a proposal, it has not yet completed
the process of embodiment in law.
>
>The Head of Government for the United Kingdom, the Queen of
Canada
>of course has final approval.
I'd be interested to see what would happen if she actually tried
to repeal an act having been through the tortuous process of
embodiment in law.
I would suggest a more detailed investigation of your arguments
before they are presented to this forum. Allegations require
proof, and statements really could do with being correct.
Yours
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
QCCC
St. John The Sublime Reformer
St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <hTHw2.5361$cQ5....@nnrp2.clara.net>,
> "Alistair Rae" <Engineering_S...@iee.org> wrote:
> >
> > St. John The Sublime wrote in message
> > <79uisl$n2a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >
> > >St. John the Sublime REformer Says : WRONGO R.W.
> > >
> > >The measures, or policy (don't think it was an actual new piece
> > of legislation
> > >probably an Order in Council) came into effect as OFFICIAL
> > GOVERNMENT POLICY
> > >on March 8, 1998 after having been tabled the previous month in
> > the Commons
> > >by Home Secretary The Rt. Hon. Jack Straw - B.B.C. Report March
> > 11, 1998.
> > >
> > >Mr. Straw said "Membership of Secret Societies such as
> > Freemasonry can raise
> > >suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is
> > therefore important
> > >the public know the facts."
> >
> > Note the use of the term Secret Society, which Freemasonry is
> > not.
> >
> > >
> > >"I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a
> > secret
> > >society but a society with secrets.
> >
> > be keeping is who their members are in the criminal justice
> > system"
>
> Neither is it that
---------------------------------------------
> St. John The Sublime Reformer says: sorry chum that is the standard
> company line in North America.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> The 'Record' is a virulently Anti paper, frequently twisting
> > stories to include Freemasonry and criticise it. A recent
> > article about a murder, in a street outside a Masonic Hall, spent
> > more space discussing the Hall, and its purpose than it did the
> > murder, or the victim. Neither victim or perpetrators were
> > Masons, and it was completely irrelavent. Since this paper has
> > an apparent agenda the veracity of its other reports is seriously
> > in doubt.
>
> ----------------------------------------------
JOhn Replys : interesting, thanks for the information.
There certainly does seem to be a number of as you say
"virulently Anti Masonic Newspapers", must be a
U.K. phenomenom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
St. John The Sublime Reformer
> "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > "Dear John",
> >
> > You disappoint me. Having proved the falsehood of your story about Thomas
> > you just go and repeat. So again I have to repudiate them.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> You havn't "proved" a thing richard.
Regards,
St. John The Sublime Reformer
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
St. John The Sublime Reformer
"Chuck Mize" <cmize@n*spamteleport.com> wrote:
>
> St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
> news:79vrt8$s2k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> >
> >"The insidious effect of Freemasonry among the police has to be
> >experienced to be believed."
> >
> >Page 49
> >The Brotherhood
> >Stephan Knight
> >
> >"THE EXPLOSIVE EXPOSE' OF THE SECRET WORLD OF THE FREEMASONS"
> >
> >Grafton Books
> >A Division of the Collins Publishing Group
> >8 Grafton Stree, London W1X 3LA
> >
> >First published in Great Britain by
> >Granada Publishing, 1983.
>
> call yourself St. John the Duped and Mislead...You do realize that you have
> now dropped all pretense to being anything other than a regular old,
> run-of-the-mill anti, don't you?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Chuck you guys keep asking me to provide you with examples.
If I quote from Newspapers its - they're completely Anti, everything
in this or that paper is "nonsense".
If I quote from published books quoting the statements of officials
and providing you with page numbers and mailing addresses of the
publishing house as well as the author its - don't you know that that
book is completely anti ?
It seems that ALL MATERIAL, AND TESTIMONY OF MASON'S OR OFFICIALS on
this matter is considered by you to be "rubbish" and "nonsense".
The reason you always give for this material being "rubbish" and "nonsense"
is simply that if is "ANTI" it can't be true, on account of all "ANTI"
is "rubbish" and "nonsense".
Now I understand.
I've seen the light.
Sail on O Ship of Solomon, sail on.
Regards,
St. John The Sublime Reformer
---------------------
> Chuck Mize
> Sherwood-Midday Lodge #164
> Beaverton Lodge #100
> Portland, OR
>
>
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
St. John The Sublime Reformer
> >In article <hTHw2.5361$cQ5....@nnrp2.clara.net>,
> > "Alistair Rae" <Engineering_S...@iee.org> wrote:
>> >>
> >> Can you actually support this statement? Bearing in mind that
> >> there is no documentary evidence of any kind to be found I'd
> be
> >> surprised.
> >
> >---------------------
> >
> >John says: What do you mean by support ?
> >
>
> speculation or second hand rumour mongering. If you can justify
> a statement of this kind then I am sure there are many bodies who
> would be interested to hear it, not least the Police :)
>
What is your justification for this statement ?
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Again perhaps you might like to check your facts regarding the
> >> structure of the UK Government.
> >
> >----------------------------------------
> >
> >I am fully aware of the facts regarding the structure of the UK
> government as the Queen of Canada has some of her homes there.
--------------------------------------------------
> >
> Perhaps in that case you might like to note that Parliment is not
> made up of 179 sitting members. The laobour party currently has
> a majority of 179.
---------------------------------------------------
Thank-you, noted.
------------------------------------------------
>
> >The Government consists of elected officials, that's why it is
> called a democracy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Govt is formed of 3 bodies. The house of Commons, the
> members of which are elected, The house of Lords, who are members
> by virtue of their position, and the executive who are employed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Whichever party wins the most seats in a general election in the
> >U.K. is called by the Queen of Canada to form a Government.
> >
> >The leader of the said party then presents his cabinet to the
> >Queen of Canada who decides if she approves of the government
> >for Great Britain.
> >
> >After the Queen of Canada has done this the Government goes
> about it's business which includes cabinet ministers (such as Home
> Secretary Straw) and parliamentary committees (such as MP Cullen's).
> >
> >This is the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain
> and Northern Ireland, a Commonwealth of Canada.
> >
> >Any decisions or directions Cabinet Ministers or Committees take
> is approved by the Governments Priorities and Planning Committee
> then becomes government policy.
---------------------------------------
>
> After it has been discussed and voted on in the two houses,
> through numerous revisions and rewrites.
----------------------------
>
> >
> >Ergo the new policy requiring All Freemasons who are Police,
> Judges, Magistrates, Judicial employees, Prison Guards, or Parole
> Officers must register IS A GOVERNMENT POLICY.
---------------------------------------------------
> No its not, it is at present a proposal, it has not yet completed
> the process of embodiment in law.
-------------------------------------------
March 8, 1998. The government's new policy of a registar for Freemasons
who are Police Officers, Judges, Magistrates, Prison Guards, Parole
Officers, and Justice System employees has come into effect after having
being tabled by Home Secretary Jack Straw the previous month, along
with the report of the commons committee of inquiry into Freemasonry
in the Criminal Justice System - B.B.C.
It seems that it is simply a change in government policy and not a new
piece of legislation.
I assume If the various Masonic Bodies do not co-operated with the
voluntary registry then the government will introduce legislation
mandating it, with the ultimate remedial measure of seizing membership
lists if necessary.
---------------------------------------
> >
> >The Head of Government for the United Kingdom, the Queen of
> Canada of course has final approval.
----------------------
>
> I'd be interested to see what would happen if she actually tried
> to repeal an act having been through the tortuous process of
> embodiment in law.
>
> I would suggest a more detailed investigation of your arguments
> before they are presented to this forum. Allegations require
> proof, and statements really could do with being correct.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I could make the accusation in this forum that the moon revolved around
the earth, and both around the sun. However I would have to first ensure
that the book or periodical that I quoted from was not held by you to be
"anti".
As I do not possess the current offical list of "anti's" from Imperial
Wizzo World Headquarters in Washington, D.C. I will not do so.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Furthermore it would it seems that The Queen of Canada and the Prince
of Wales (the future King of Canada) HEARTILY endorse the above
policy of registering Freemasons within the U.K.
Thus with this addition the "anti-masonic" conspiracy now widens to
FOUR people.
This could be trouble.
regards,
St. John The Sublime Reformer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yours
>
> Alistair Rae MM
> UGLE
> QCCC
>
> Why does thunder sound delicate?
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Remove the Engineering Solution in the reply to address
>
>
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
Richard White
St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
<7a3kla$2gg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <53%w2.27936$202.13...@news1.teleport.com>,
> "Chuck Mize" <cmize@n*spamteleport.com> wrote:
>>
>> St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in
message
>> news:79vrt8$s2k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>> >
>> >experienced to be believed."
>> >
>> >Page 49
>> >The Brotherhood
>> >Stephan Knight
>> >
should
>> call yourself St. John the Duped and Mislead...You do realize that you
have
>> now dropped all pretense to being anything other than a regular old,
>> run-of-the-mill anti, don't you?
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>in this or that paper is "nonsense".
Not so. I believe that only one newspaper article, relating to the false
rumour that Dunblane murderer Hamilton was a Freemason, has been repudiated.
I have subsequently discovered also that the GL of Scotland made its own
search of its membership records. It found one or two other Thomas
Hamiltons who are (or had been) Freemasons - but the infamous one had never
been one.
>
>If I quote from published books quoting the statements of officials
>and providing you with page numbers and mailing addresses of the
>publishing house as well as the author its - don't you know that that
>book is completely anti ?
You have quoted here from one book and one book only. That book must
therefore be either biased for/against Freemasonry or unbiased. In this
case it is biased against Freemasonry. I have read the book (many years
ago) and found little evidence to support the claims behind the stories in
it.
What I can tell you is that the level of masonic membership among the police
(at least the Met. in London) used to be much higher than it is today. One
reason why it has fallen is that the proportion of officers who are female
has significantly increased. Another is the innate hostility of present
day middle ranking and senior officers to the Craft.
For example, one of the first things that the CIB (=Internal Affairs) does
when investigating a policeman is to find out if he is a Freemason. They do
this even if masonic connections are not suspected - it seems to be an
automatic process along with checking his name and address. The police
have their own informants in UGLE - they already know who is and who is not
a Freemason. They also know when a Freemason has resigned - as happened
with a friend of mine who resigned from his lodge in order to enhance his
police career.
Richard White
St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
<7a3ntv$4m9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>March 8, 1998. The government's new policy of a registar for Freemasons
>who are Police Officers, Judges, Magistrates, Prison Guards, Parole
>Officers, and Justice System employees has come into effect after having
>being tabled by Home Secretary Jack Straw the previous month, along
>with the report of the commons committee of inquiry into Freemasonry
>in the Criminal Justice System - B.B.C.
"John",
To quote your own quotation: "....The government's new POLICY of a registar
[sic] ......has come into effect after having being tabled ....."
"John": this is a policy not a law. The Government's policy is that a
voluntary registration process will be introduced and that it will be made
compulsory if not enough of the Freemasons involved "voluntarily register".
As I have stated in another post, the police have covert access to UGLE's
records, and so despite a **public** image of ignorance, the **actual**
position of the Government is that they know full well whic Judges,
Policemen etc. are Freemasons and will also therefore know if they are
vountarily registering.
>
>It seems that it is simply a change in government policy and not a new
>piece of legislation.
>
>I assume If the various Masonic Bodies do not co-operated with the
>voluntary registry then the government will introduce legislation
>mandating it, with the ultimate remedial measure of seizing membership
>lists if necessary.
This last act would of course be just so typical of a democratic regime -
wouldn't it? Does it not worry you that the membership list of a private
society should be "seized"?
>
>---------------------------------------
>> >
>> >The Head of Government for the United Kingdom, the Queen of
>> Canada of course has final approval.
The last time the Sovereign refused to give Royal Assent to a Bill was in
1702 (Queen Anne). You need to go back before that to find the last time
the Royal Assent was withdrawn after first being given - if indeed it could
be, I think it would require a second Act of Parliament to repeal the
former.
Richard White
"John",
St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
<7a39nt$pj3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> > This is what the Official Report of the investigation into the
shootings had
>> > to say (in chapter five of the report):-
>> >
>> > "5.6 Thomas Hamilton harboured a long-standing grievance against the
>> > Scouts and the police. In the large volume of correspondence which he
>> > generated a recurring theme is his assertion that the police were
biased in
>> > favour of the "brotherhood of masons" and that there was a
"brotherhood"
>> > link between the Scouts and the police. In passing it may be noted that
this
>> > together with evidence given by Mr Deuchars indicated that Thomas
Hamilton
>> > had never been a freemason. I am satisfied that he was not a member of
the
>> > masons. "
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> John says : see above, however it is obvious by the inclusion of
>> this "masonic connection angle" that the inquiry did have some
>> concerns that Hamilton might have been a Freemason.
No John - read what it says in the report. HAMILTON wrote a large amount
or correspondence in which (among other things) he "generated a recurring
theme is his assertion that the police were biased in favour of the
`brotherhood of masons`".
In other words it wasn't the inquiry which was concerned with a masonic
involvement but Hamilton who believed that there was a masonic bias in the
police which was also connected with the Scouting movement. If you bother
to read more of the report around this you will discover that Hamilton was
at odds with both the police and the scouting movement and was writing many
letters of complaint to them.
>> Why would they think that ?
>>
>> Answer: There had obviously been an accusation or accusations that he
>> HAD been a freemason.
As I have just pointed out - not so. All you have demonstrated is that you
can read but you cannot understand.
>> THEY just were unable to prove the accusation as a result of the
>> testimony of a certain Mr. Dechars.
Again "John", try both reading and understanding the report. It says: "In
passing it may be noted that THIS together with evidence given by Mr
Deuchars indicated that Thomas Hamilton had never been a freemason." I
have highlighted the word "this" in case you missed it. The word "this"
relates to the previous sentence in which Hamilton's accusations AGAINST
masonic conspiracy are recorded.
In other words, Lord Cullen is drawing the conclusion that because Hamilton
repeatedly asserted that he was the victim of a masonic conspiracy involving
both the local police and the scouting movement, then THIS indicates that
Hamilton was NOT a Freemason. If he had been a Freemason, would he then
complain about being a victim of "brotherhood of masons" as he himself put
it?
>>
>> I don't know who this Mr. Dechars is but if he was to testify to
>> the fact of whether Hamilton was a Freemason it is probable that
>> he was an official of the local lodge.
>>
>> In otherwords he is in a conflict of interest on this matter.
There is no evidence of this. The Mr. Deuchars (note correct spelling)
was a I believe a senior police officer. You should also remember that his
evidence in this matter was just supportive - not primary.
>>
>> I don't know whether any membership records of the local lodge
>> were supenoed, as there is no attachment or reference. So the
>> testimony of Mr. Dechars is unsubstantiated.
The Grand Master Master of Scotland has stated to Parliament that this
Thomas Hamilton was never a Freemason.
"John", just ask yourself this question: why if Hamilton was so convinced
in his letters of complaint that he was being discriminated against (or
victimised) by the Freemasons would there be any reason to believe that he
was also a Freemason?
KIV11
You are wasting your breath, in this case "the truth will set you free" will
not apply because nothing which is fact or has been proven logical will make a
dent. "John" will never believe the truth because he has his own agenda. If you
told him 2 + 2 = 4, he would give you suposition anfter suposition proving you
were wrong, why? Because you are a Mason and the bottom line to "these people"
is that we all lie.
In any case I thank you for the very well researched information. A little
education, every once in a while, makes this NG worthwhile!
Fraternally,
W George F. Kivowitz
Guiding Light-Olympia Lodge #808
1st Nassau Masonic District (Long Island)
Grand Lodge F&AM, State of NY
Michael B. Buck
reposting his own post but he is also cross posting and modifying the subjects
to keep himself on the NG in multiple subjects.
Mike, MM
Richard White wrote:
>
> St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
> <7a3ntv$4m9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >March 8, 1998. The government's new policy of a registar for Freemasons
> >who are Police Officers, Judges, Magistrates, Prison Guards, Parole
> >Officers, and Justice System employees has come into effect after having
> >being tabled by Home Secretary Jack Straw the previous month, along
> >with the report of the commons committee of inquiry into Freemasonry
> >in the Criminal Justice System - B.B.C.
>
> "John",
>
> To quote your own quotation: "....The government's new POLICY of a registar
> [sic] ......has come into effect after having being tabled ....."
>
....
Alistair Rae
> "Alistair Rae" <Engineering_S...@iee.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >John says: What do you mean by support ?
>> >
>>
>> Have you any evidence for this statement, or is this merely
>> speculation or second hand rumour mongering. If you can
justify
>> a statement of this kind then I am sure there are many bodies
who
>> would be interested to hear it, not least the Police :)
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> What is your justification for this statement ?
>
Put simply your initial allegation is of a criminal offence. If
you have evidence of which the Cullen enquiry was unaware of then
it should be reported to the relavent investigative authorities
for further action.
Additionally if there was criminal behaviour within the local
Lodge then action will be taken by Provincial Grand Lodge and
Grand Lodge.
Alistair Rae
St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
<7a388p$oj9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> > The 'Record' is a virulently Anti paper, frequently twisting
>> > stories to include Freemasonry and criticise it. A recent
>> > article about a murder, in a street outside a Masonic Hall,
spent
>> > more space discussing the Hall, and its purpose than it did
the
>> > murder, or the victim. Neither victim or perpetrators were
>> > Masons, and it was completely irrelavent. Since this paper
has
>> > an apparent agenda the veracity of its other reports is
seriously
>> > in doubt.
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>
>JOhn Replys : interesting, thanks for the information.
>
> There certainly does seem to be a number of as you
say
> "virulently Anti Masonic Newspapers", must be a
> U.K. phenomenom.
>----------------------------------------------------------------
----
There are about 4 papers in the UK which have a noticeable anti
stance on Freemasonry. The rest tend towards a balanced
viewpoint on the issue. The real Anti's are also those that are
Anti - Europe, Anti - women serving in the military, Anti -
freedom of information etc. They are also the ones that publish
racist headlines whenever a tinpot dictator like Saddam Hussein
starts vocalising, and get upset when Britons are arrested,
jailed and Tried in any country other than England (Note the
distinction between England and the rest of the UK).
According to these papers Louise Woodward was not a child killer,
but a poor, distressed young girl lost and alone in the big bad
United States of America :-( Yet an Australian Nanny who
committed a similar offence was Satans right hand )))
this type of absolutist journalism discredits that trade, and
provides no confidence in the accuracy of their other reporting.
If you really want to base your arguments on a foundation such as
this then carry on.
Papers for grown ups on the other hand actually discuss issues
rather than sensationalise.
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
Skipper642
>The Widow's Son ?
>From: St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com>
>Date: 2/13/99 4:37 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <7a3kla$2gg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>In article <53%w2.27936$202.13...@news1.teleport.com>,
> "Chuck Mize" <cmize@n*spamteleport.com> wrote:
>>
>> St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
>> news:79vrt8$s2k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>> >
>> >"The insidious effect of Freemasonry among the police has to be
>> >experienced to be believed."
>> >
>> >Page 49
>> >The Brotherhood
>> >Stephan Knight
>> >
>> >
>> >Grafton Books
>> >A Division of the Collins Publishing Group
>> >8 Grafton Stree, London W1X 3LA
>> >
>> >First published in Great Britain by
>> >Granada Publishing, 1983.
>>
>> call yourself St. John the Duped and Mislead...You do realize that you have
>> now dropped all pretense to being anything other than a regular old,
>> run-of-the-mill anti, don't you?
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>in this or that paper is "nonsense".
>
>and providing you with page numbers and mailing addresses of the
>publishing house as well as the author its - don't you know that that
>book is completely anti ?
>
>this matter is considered by you to be "rubbish" and "nonsense".
>
>The reason you always give for this material being "rubbish" and "nonsense"
>is simply that if is "ANTI" it can't be true, on account of all "ANTI"
>is "rubbish" and "nonsense".
>
>Now I understand.
>
>I've seen the light.
>
>Sail on O Ship of Solomon, sail on.
>
>
>Regards,
>
It has APPEARED to me that you persist in quoting from documents that you claim
to be authorative expositions of Masonic thought when you admit those documents
are authored by persons whose purpose is to denigrate Freemasonry. You would
place us in the untenable position of trying to explain why you should not
accept the positions of these people you define as experts on Masonry. Should
it surprise you that we reject out-of-hand the presumed "authority" of those
whose purpose is to condemn our fraternity? Are you really surprised that we
do not accept your presumption that they speak the truth about Freemasonry?
You cannot define the rules of debate, especially when you presume to begin by
define whose words both debaters must accept as authoritative.
Skip Dees, KYCH
Midland, Texas
Jim Bennie
<st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> Why is there innate hostiliy among High and middle ranking Police officers
> today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
> Are they all paranoids ? Or have they been victimized or seen there
> co-workers victimised by Freemasons ?
Really, John? You're here in the Lower Mainland. Can you name
which local "high and middle ranking police officers" are hostile
toward Freemasons?
Wouldn't you say the majority of the rank and file are under 40?
I thought you said people under 40 here had never heard of
Freemasonry. Why would there be "innate hostility" against people
who have never even heard of Freemasonry, let alone belong to it?
Jim Bennie
PM Nos. 65 & 44, Vancouver
Jim Bennie
<st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> If this was the case it would be possible both for him to be a lodge
> member and not a mason because one is not really a mason until they
> are raised to the rank of master mason completing their apprenticeship.
You're applying American Masonic customs to Scotland here, John.
One is a Lodge member after the 1st degree in Scotland. In the
US, afaik, he can't sign the bylaws or vote in Lodge until after
his 3rd. Same as BC.
Jim Bennie
PM Nos. 65 & 44, Vancouver BC
St. John The Sublime Reformer
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
> This last act would of course be just so typical of a democratic regime -
> wouldn't it? Does it not worry you that the membership list of a private
> society should be "seized"?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well we know now exactly what kind of powers governments not only possess
but actually excercise in times of emergencies like in WW II and natural
disasters democratic or otherwise.
Government worry's me period. I am especially worried also if there
was some type of government within the government that the general
public was unaware of operating towards their own goals of which
were known only to themselves.
In the U.K. and Canada we use as our modo not the "land of liberty",
but the land of "peace order and good government".
Based on my own personal experiences with both ways of organizing
the thought patterns of populaces a walk in the park or
drive through an unfamiliar area of town at night is much more recommended
in a land of "peace order and good government". Try it yourself sometime.
If there is some problems (ala P2) going on then the price of seizing
lists is I feel a reasonable one to pay and certainly nothing that
has not gone on before in similar uncertain times.
regardevoux
John
>
> >
> ,
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>
>
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> "John",
>
> St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
> <7a39nt$pj3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >> John says : see above, however it is obvious by the inclusion of
> >> this "masonic connection angle" that the inquiry did have some
> >> concerns that Hamilton might have been a Freemason.
>
> theme is his assertion that the police were biased in favour of the
>
> In other words it wasn't the inquiry which was concerned with a masonic
> involvement but Hamilton who believed that there was a masonic bias in the
> police which was also connected with the Scouting movement. If you bother
> to read more of the report around this you will discover that Hamilton was
> at odds with both the police and the scouting movement and was writing many
> letters of complaint to them.
>
> >>
> >> Answer: There had obviously been an accusation or accusations that he
> >> HAD been a freemason.
>
> can read but you cannot understand.
>
> >> testimony of a certain Mr. Dechars.
>
> passing it may be noted that THIS together with evidence given by Mr
> Deuchars indicated that Thomas Hamilton had never been a freemason." I
> relates to the previous sentence in which Hamilton's accusations AGAINST
> masonic conspiracy are recorded.
>
> In other words, Lord Cullen is drawing the conclusion that because Hamilton
> repeatedly asserted that he was the victim of a masonic conspiracy involving
> both the local police and the scouting movement, then THIS indicates that
> Hamilton was NOT a Freemason. If he had been a Freemason, would he then
> complain about being a victim of "brotherhood of masons" as he himself put
> it?
JOhn responds :
I would conjecture that he could have been an entered apprentice or
fellowcraft, then done something that his lodge disapproved of resulting in
his being ostracized.
If this was the case it would be possible both for him to be a lodge
member and not a mason because one is not really a mason until they
are raised to the rank of master mason completing their apprenticeship.
In fact it may be the case that using similar semantics that one is
also not a member of the lodge until one is a master similar to one
is not a lawyer or member of the bar until he completes his articling
and passes the exam.
I have noticed a rather canny ability of masons to carefully
dance around on the head of a pin when answering questions similar
to what the American President just did (although of course on a
entirely different level) when he gave as his reasoning for first
denying an encounter with Ms. Lewinsky "well it all depends what
your definition of is is."
> >>
> >> I don't know who this Mr. Dechars is but if he was to testify to
> >> the fact of whether Hamilton was a Freemason it is probable that
> >> he was an official of the local lodge.
> >>
> >> In otherwords he is in a conflict of interest on this matter.
>
> There is no evidence of this. The Mr. Deuchars (note correct spelling)
> was a I believe a senior police officer. You should also remember that his
> evidence in this matter was just supportive - not primary.
>
> >>
> >> I don't know whether any membership records of the local lodge
> >> were supenoed, as there is no attachment or reference. So the
> >> testimony of Mr. Dechars is unsubstantiated.
>
> The Grand Master Master of Scotland has stated to Parliament that this
> Thomas Hamilton was never a Freemason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again he could make such a statement truthfully if Mr. Hamilton was
only a entered apprentice or fellowcraft. He would be answering to
the letter of the law, but obviously not the broad spirit of the
question.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "John", just ask yourself this question: why if Hamilton was so convinced
> in his letters of complaint that he was being discriminated against (or
> victimised) by the Freemasons would there be any reason to believe that he
> was also a Freemason?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See above,
Like to see this potential loose end tied up before I let the matter go
completely.
regards,
JOhn
> Regards,
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>
>
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the justification for your statement ?
I am not part of any as you say "they", unless of course you
are referring to non-masons.
Regards,
St. John The Sublime Reformer
"Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
> <7a3kla$2gg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > "Chuck Mize" <cmize@n*spamteleport.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in
> message
> >> news:79vrt8$s2k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> >> >
> >> >"
>
> (at least the Met. in London) used to be much higher than it is today. One
> reason why it has fallen is that the proportion of officers who are female
> has significantly increased. Another is the innate hostility of present
> day middle ranking and senior officers to the Craft.
>
> For example, one of the first things that the CIB (=Internal Affairs) does
> when investigating a policeman is to find out if he is a Freemason. They do
> this even if masonic connections are not suspected - it seems to be an
> automatic process along with checking his name and address. The police
> have their own informants in UGLE - they already know who is and who is not
> a Freemason. They also know when a Freemason has resigned - as happened
> with a friend of mine who resigned from his lodge in order to enhance his
> police career.
>
>
> Richard White
> PM
> Addington Lodge No. 5080
> Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> UGLE
>
Why is there innate hostiliy among High and middle ranking Police officers
today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
Are they all paranoids ? Or have they been victimized or seen there co-workers
victimised by Freemasons ?
To me this is pretty compelling evidence that their is some problem, or
has been some problem attributed to Freemasonry within the criminal justice
field in the U.K.
Perhaps this problem is also as prevelent in other countries but has
come to the forefront first in the U.K. due to the inherant decency
and fair play of British People.
I think a line of inquiry into similar matters on this side of the
pond is probably in order.
regards,
John
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
St. John The Sublime Reformer
charr...@aol.com (CHarris141) wrote:
> Dear john,
>
> I never thought I would write a dear john letter. Anyway, you write:
>
> >Hey Chuck you guys keep asking me to provide you with examples.
>
> >If I quote from Newspapers its - they're completely Anti, everything
> >in this or that paper is "nonsense"
>
> >
> >and providing you with page numbers and mailing addresses of the
> >publishing house as well as the author its - don't you know that that
> >book is completely anti ?
>
> against Freemasonry that they will make up stuff or cut and paste old
arguments
> that have been proven false time and time again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you justify your statement that these arguements have been proven false
time and time again ?
I've learnt from Alastair Rae's postings that senior and middle ranking
police officials in the U.K. are biased against Freemasonry within
their departments.
This would seem to indicate that there is a problem.
Contrary to your unsubstantiated claims that these arguements have been
proven false.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here is what I would advise you to do. Read books written by Masonic authors
> about Freemasonry (ie the first three degrees).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean there are books written by masonic authors that discuss corruption,
nepotism, cronyism, and malfiesence by freemasons within the criminal
justice system and other government bodies.
If so please provide me with a list of some so I can order them and
read them as you suggest.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember that they are writing
> from their opinion and personal interpretations and what they say may or may
> not be agreed upon by others. If you have a question about what they write
> post it and we will answer with our interpretation. If you have a question,
> say about Albert Pike, well he was active in the York Rite (Grand High Priest
> of Arkansas twice) and Scottish Rite. His book M & D was written only for the
> Southern Jurisdiction of the United States and then only as a refrence and is
a
> compilation of other works. So if you ask a Maosn about Pike and he lives
> overseas or in the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction AASR, Pike never had anything
> to do with them and the arugment is mute.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this the Pike who was 33 degree mason and head of the supreme body
for the southern jurisdiction ?
I believe he (if he is the same one you are referrring to) is called
the plato of freemasonry publishing some 19 books on the matter, including
the famous Morals and Dogma.
I also understand he was one of the founders if not the founder of the
Klu Klux Klan which only ceased being an offical masonic concordant body
in the nineteen forties.
Regards,
St. John The Sublime Reformer
> Chris Harris, MPS
> McDonald Lodge # 324 AF & AM Independence, Missouri
> (Junior Warden & Education Officer)
> York Rite, York Rite College, 32° AASR (SJ), Order of True Kindred,
> homepage: http://members.aol.com/CHarris141/mason.html
> Copyright 1999 by Christopher Harris
ri...@my-dejanews.com
St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <7a3uql$fhh$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> >
>
> > This last act would of course be just so typical of a democratic regime -
> > wouldn't it? Does it not worry you that the membership list of a private
> > society should be "seized"?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well we know now exactly what kind of powers governments not only possess
> but actually excercise in times of emergencies like in WW II and natural
> disasters democratic or otherwise.
>
> Government worry's me period. I am especially worried also if there
> was some type of government within the government that the general
> public was unaware of operating towards their own goals of which
> were known only to themselves.
>
> In the U.K. and Canada we use as our modo not the "land of liberty",
> but the land of "peace order and good government".
>
> Based on my own personal experiences with both ways of organizing
> the thought patterns of populaces a walk in the park or
> drive through an unfamiliar area of town at night is much more recommended
> in a land of "peace order and good government". Try it yourself sometime.
>
> If there is some problems (ala P2) going on then the price of seizing
> lists is I feel a reasonable one to pay and certainly nothing that
> has not gone on before in similar uncertain times.
>
> regardevoux
>
> John
>
> >
> > >
> > ,
> >
> > PM
> > Addington Lodge No. 5080
> > Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> > UGLE
> >
> >
>
> St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
> veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
> three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
John,
The P-2 situation used as an example of corrupt Freemasons is not a good
one. Among Freemasons, P2 is not a recognized organization. It is a
corrupt organization which attempted to look honest by adopting a Masonic
appearance.
I, as you know, have no problems with public officials disclosing their
affiliations as long as they are required to disclose ALL of them, and
not just one. I might not wish to vote for someone who was a member of a
particular church, for example. In another case, someone might not like
the Lions Club (I can't imagine why). Some might find Beta Sigma Phi
members to be snobbish and vote against them as a matter of principal.
There have been plenty of suppositions and unfounded accusations made in
the UK against Freemasonry and government. I wonder how many of those
suppositions and accusations have been found to have any factual basis?
In most cases, propagandists work on the old principal that if they
repeat a lie often enough, some of the poeple will believe it. If they
continue repeating it, most will. Considering the mumbers of Freemasons
in the UK, Canada, and the US, wouldn't you say that the actual incidence
of coruptin proven against Freemasonry is rather low?
What I am pointing out here is that almost any group you wish to look at
will have a higher incidence of PROVEN misdeeds than Freemasonry has
supposed misdeeds. The Catholic Church and pediophilic priests, no
contest, many more proven incidents of warped priests than supposed
Masonic wrongdoings. Fundamentalist Christians and television ministers
misusing millions of dollars worth of contributions or committing sexual
misconduct, again no contest. The Preachers have a worse record in far
less time. Shall I continue?
My point is this. We are not perfect. Undoubtedly there are Freemasons who
do not follow what they know to be right. If there weren't, Grand Lodges
would not have rules for Masonic Trials allowing errent members to be
dismissed from the Fraternity. It is my belief, however, that you will find
far fewer Freemasons involved in wrongdoing around the World than any other
group you can name, including preachers and priests. There are five million
M\Freemasons (give or take a hndred or so thousand) around the World. There
are two million on the North American Continent alone. The incidence of
supposed wrongdoing is very low. The PROVEN incidence of wrongdoing is much
less than any other group you can name.
You use the governments of the UK and Canada as examples. You have quoted
supposed incidents of wrongdoing and asked Masons to defend Freemasonry. I
now ask you to prove the charges of wrongdoing. Not supposition or
unsupported charges, but actual proof of your, or anyone else's case. Isn't
that the way trials work? In Canada and the UK, aren the accused innocent
until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or even with a
preponderance of the evidence? Why should Freemasonry be treated any
differently from any other accused person or organization?
Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, Texas
newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
ri...@my-dejanews.com
St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <7a40co$pul$1...@mendelevium.btinternet.com>,
> "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > "John",
> >
> > In other words, Lord Cullen is drawing the conclusion that because Hamilton
> > repeatedly asserted that he was the victim of a masonic conspiracy involving
> > both the local police and the scouting movement, then THIS indicates that
> > Hamilton was NOT a Freemason. If he had been a Freemason, would he then
> > complain about being a victim of "brotherhood of masons" as he himself put
> > it?
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> JOhn responds :
>
> I would conjecture that he could have been an entered apprentice or
> fellowcraft, then done something that his lodge disapproved of resulting in
> his being ostracized.
>
> If this was the case it would be possible both for him to be a lodge
> member and not a mason because one is not really a mason until they
> are raised to the rank of master mason completing their apprenticeship.
>
Actually, this is not correct John. A man is considered a Mason from the
point of being Initiates as an Entered Apprentice Mason. he is called
Brother from the point where he takes the Entered Apprentice Mason's
Obligation. The degree of his participation and running of a Lodge varies
from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but he is a Mason.
> In fact it may be the case that using similar semantics that one is
> also not a member of the lodge until one is a master similar to one
> is not a lawyer or member of the bar until he completes his articling
> and passes the exam.
>
Nope. You are comparing two different things. A fraternity is not the same
as professional credentials.
> I have noticed a rather canny ability of masons to carefully
> dance around on the head of a pin when answering questions similar
> to what the American President just did (although of course on a
> entirely different level) when he gave as his reasoning for first
> denying an encounter with Ms. Lewinsky "well it all depends what
> your definition of is is."
>
We have learned to be careful with our answers because of antis. There is a
decided tendency among antis to take anything said and attempt to turn it to
their reasoning and to support their supposition. In other instances, there
are parts of the esoteric work that we can not discuss with non-Masons. These
parts of our work require a bit of caution when discussing theings related to
them.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know who this Mr. Dechars is but if he was to testify to
> > >> the fact of whether Hamilton was a Freemason it is probable that
> > >> he was an official of the local lodge.
> > >>
> > >> In otherwords he is in a conflict of interest on this matter.
> >
> > There is no evidence of this. The Mr. Deuchars (note correct spelling)
> > was a I believe a senior police officer. You should also remember that his
> > evidence in this matter was just supportive - not primary.
> >
> > >>
> > >> I don't know whether any membership records of the local lodge
> > >> were supenoed, as there is no attachment or reference. So the
> > >> testimony of Mr. Dechars is unsubstantiated.
> >
> > The Grand Master Master of Scotland has stated to Parliament that this
> > Thomas Hamilton was never a Freemason.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Again he could make such a statement truthfully if Mr. Hamilton was
> only a entered apprentice or fellowcraft. He would be answering to
> the letter of the law, but obviously not the broad spirit of the
> question.
>
Your supposition is wrong again John. I suspect that should you ask, the
Constitution of the Grand Lodge of Scotland, AF&AM requires Lodges to report
EA and FC just as our Grand Jurisdiction does. EA and FC ARE Masons from the
point of Initiation, and are on the records of our Grand Lodge here in Texas.
I believe it is so with Scotland.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > "John", just ask yourself this question: why if Hamilton was so convinced
> > in his letters of complaint that he was being discriminated against (or
> > victimised) by the Freemasons would there be any reason to believe that he
> > was also a Freemason?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> See above,
>
> Like to see this potential loose end tied up before I let the matter go
> completely.
>
> regards,
>
> JOhn
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Richard White
> > PM
> > Addington Lodge No. 5080
> > Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> > UGLE
> >
> >
Where is your proof? Again, this isssue is one of supposition. The only
evidence offered of Masonic Membership in this issue is that there is no
evidence the accused party is or ever was a Mason under the jurisdiction of
the Grand Lodge of Scotland, AF&AM, where he resided. To continue to accuse
Freemasonry and Masonic involvement in this case without any supportive
evidence is not even circumstantial. Indeed, the only evidence which can be
verified in this case as far as Masonic Membership of this guy is that he was
not a member! How, then, can this be a loose end? If his membership is not
proven, it is not. In court, a jury or a judge must make decisions based on
what is proven, or on circumstances, which together, support a believable
accusation. The circumstances in this case are not sufficient to support the
supposition of Masonic Membership in the face of Evidence to the contrary.
Case closed.
Richard Jackson, PM
Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
Corrigan, Texas
newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
ri...@my-dejanews.com
> "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
> > <7a3kla$2gg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > >In article <53%w2.27936$202.13...@news1.teleport.com>,
> > > "Chuck Mize" <cmize@n*spamteleport.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> St. John The Sublime <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in
> > message
> > >> news:79vrt8$s2k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> > >> >
> > >> >"
> >
> > What I can tell you is that the level of masonic membership among the police
> > (at least the Met. in London) used to be much higher than it is today. One
> > reason why it has fallen is that the proportion of officers who are female
> > has significantly increased. Another is the innate hostility of present
> > day middle ranking and senior officers to the Craft.
> >
> > For example, one of the first things that the CIB (=Internal Affairs) does
> > when investigating a policeman is to find out if he is a Freemason. They do
> > this even if masonic connections are not suspected - it seems to be an
> > automatic process along with checking his name and address. The police
> > have their own informants in UGLE - they already know who is and who is not
> > a Freemason. They also know when a Freemason has resigned - as happened
> > with a friend of mine who resigned from his lodge in order to enhance his
> > police career.
> >
> >
> > Richard White
> > PM
> > Addington Lodge No. 5080
> > Old Olavians Lodge No. 5758
> > UGLE
> >
>
> Why is there innate hostiliy among High and middle ranking Police officers
> today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
>
> Are they all paranoids ? Or have they been victimized or seen there co-workers
> victimised by Freemasons ?
>
> To me this is pretty compelling evidence that their is some problem, or
> has been some problem attributed to Freemasonry within the criminal justice
> field in the U.K.
>
> Perhaps this problem is also as prevelent in other countries but has
> come to the forefront first in the U.K. due to the inherant decency
> and fair play of British People.
>
> I think a line of inquiry into similar matters on this side of the
> pond is probably in order.
>
> regards,
>
> John
>
> ========================================================================
> veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
> three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
John,
Are you saying that prejudice is evidence of wrongdoing?
eas...@redriverok.com
St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why is there innate hostiliy among High and middle ranking Police officers
> today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
>
There isn't.
> Are they all paranoids ? Or have they been victimized or seen there co-workers
> victimised by Freemasons ?
Nope.
>
> To me this is pretty compelling evidence that their is some problem, or
> has been some problem attributed to Freemasonry within the criminal justice
> field in the U.K.
It might be if it where more than a wild accusation.
>
> Perhaps this problem is also as prevelent in other countries but has
> come to the forefront first in the U.K. due to the inherant decency
> and fair play of British People.
Oh my... anglophile, or just plain bigoted??
St. John The Sublime Reformer
ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7a7r4t$b93$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > In article <7a3uql$fhh$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> > "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > This last act would of course be just so typical of a democratic regime -
> > > wouldn't it? Does it not worry you that the membership list of a private
> > > society should be "seized"?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Well we know now exactly what kind of powers governments not only possess
> > but actually excercise in times of emergencies like in WW II and natural
> > disasters democratic or otherwise.
> >
> >
> > lists is I feel a reasonable one to pay and certainly nothing that
> > has not gone on before in similar uncertain times.
> >
> > regardevoux
> >
> > John
> >
> The P-2 situation used as an example of corrupt Freemasons is not a good
> one. Among Freemasons, P2 is not a recognized organization. It is a
> corrupt organization which attempted to look honest by adopting a Masonic
> appearance.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
A word on P-2
Your statement that p2 wasn't an official recognized lodge is accurate.
It simply operated like one under the instructions, blessing and,
complete involvement by "official" Italian Freemasonry.
Your inference that it had nothing to do with Freemasonry is therefore
inaccurate.
Lodge Propaganda Due as it was called or P2 for short was a secret
grouping of masons.
P-2 was formed in 1966 at the behest of the then Grand Master of the
Grand Orient of Italy, Giordano Gamberini.
The Grand Masters plan was to establish a group of eminent men who
would be sympathetic and useful to Freemasonry.
P-2 in the words of the Leader of Italy's Republican Party as "the
centre of pollution of national life - secret, perverse, and
corrupting".
This imbroglio of corruption, blackmail and murder brought down the
coalition government of premier Arnaldo Forlani and decimated the
upper echelons of Italian power.
It was involved in every scam going from the Mafia, Massive Banking Frauds,
Grotesque Corruption, Selling Secrets to the KGB, Drug Trafficking, and
Massive C.I.A. Sponsored Electoral Fraud and Assassinations.
It had everything to do with Italian Freemasonry.
It was set up by the leadership of Italian Freemasonry and contained all
the highest ranking Italian Freemasons who evidently didn't mind in
the slightest sharing fraternal relations with utter scum.
And why should the Leadership of the Grand Orient of Italy along with
remainder of Senior Italian Freemasons have minded this, they were
after all utter scum themselves.
The head bagman Lico Gelli had his Freemasons in every decision-making
centre in Italian politics it reached the very heart of Italian Government
leadership and passed massive amounts of N.A.T.O. and U.S. Secrets straight in
to the hands of the K.G.B. (for a little profit of course, kicked back to
the Grand Orient of Italy).
Lico Gelli was of course found hanging from Blackfriars Bridged in London
with chunks of masonry stuffed into his pocket as well as other signs of
fraternity.
The symbol of Italian Freemasonry is of course a Black Friar.
The London Police claimed it was a suicide but performed no autopsy, this is
currently being rectified after over ten years of lobbying by his family.
Gelli's body was recently exhumed and the results could yet involve the
brethern of Avalon.
This REEEEEAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYY MAKES ME PUKE !!!!!!!!!!!
Rebarfs,
John The Sublime Reformer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Richard Jackson, PM
> Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
> Corrigan, Texas
> newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
CHarris141
>Can you justify your statement that these arguements have been proven false
>time and time again ?
Such as the Leo Taxil Hoax, as one good examlpe. see this website for
documentation.
http://www.chrysalis.org/masonry/taxilcon.htm
I no nothing of UK Freemasonry. First of all taht is not my Jurisdiction and
know nothing of your claims.
>You mean there are books written by masonic authors that discuss corruption,
>nepotism, cronyism, and malfiesence by freemasons within the criminal
>justice system
Freemasonry in the United States and especially here in Missouri does not as
far as I know have a problem with the Police. Again you refer to something I
am not well versed in and so I will not comment.
>Is this the Pike who was 33 degree mason and head of the supreme body
>for the southern jurisdiction ?
Yes, Albert Pike was given this award. The only bodies Pike could comment on
with authority and then only during is tenure was:
His Local Lodge (while he was Master)
The Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons (again during his tenure)
Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction only and again only
during his tenure. Morals & Dogma's is a good book to read if you like taking
a course in comparitve Religion and philosophy. Pike was a deeply religious
man who was Episcopalian (if memory serves me correct).
Pike has no KKK membership nor was he the founder, Nathan Bedford Forrest was
and I believe he was an EA in his own lodge and never got further. KKK was a
club to preserve the Southern Way of of life for Gentlemen Plantation owners
and to keep Blacks in check. The only General Order ever issued to Forrest was
to disband. The Current KKK has never and will never be an appendant body to
Freemasonry. I have heard rumors that there are Freemasons who are Klansmen
but can not substantiate this rumor.
Christopher Harris, MPS
Jim Bennie
In <7a824o$glk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, St. John The Sublime Reformer
<st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> Why is there innate hostiliy among High and middle ranking Police officers
> today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
> Are they all paranoids ? Or have they been victimized or seen there
> co-workers victimised by Freemasons ?
Really, John? You're here in the Lower Mainland. Can you name
which local "high and middle ranking police officers" are hostile
toward Freemasons?
Jim Bennie
Jim Bennie
In <7a7sn2$cc7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, St. John The Sublime Reformer
<st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> If this was the case it would be possible both for him to be a lodge
> member and not a mason because one is not really a mason until they
> are raised to the rank of master mason completing their apprenticeship.
You're applying American Masonic customs to Scotland here, John.
One is a Lodge member after the 1st degree in Scotland. In the
US, afaik, he can't sign the bylaws or vote in Lodge until after
his 3rd. Same as BC.
I trust you are not accusing the GL of Scotland of some kind of
semantical subterfuge and cover-up?
Jim Bennie
PM Nos. 65 & 44, Vancouver BC
eas...@redriverok.com
> A word on P-2
>
> Your statement that p2 wasn't an official recognized lodge is accurate.
>
> It simply operated like one under the instructions, blessing and,
> complete involvement by "official" Italian Freemasonry.
>
False. An unrecognized lodge is one that regular lodges do not recognize as
actually being a masonic lodge and have no masonic communication with. The P2
lodge was completely clandestine.
> Your inference that it had nothing to do with Freemasonry is therefore
> inaccurate.
No it is entirely accurate. Your understanding of what a recognized vs
unrecongized lodge is, however, inaccurate.
>
> Lodge Propaganda Due as it was called or P2 for short was a secret
> grouping of masons.
No it was a clandestine group that used the name masonry. Just as any group
can call themselves a catholic church, that does not make them one.
>
> P-2 was formed in 1966 at the behest of the then Grand Master of the
> Grand Orient of Italy, Giordano Gamberini.
Your source is??
>
> The Grand Masters plan was to establish a group of eminent men who
> would be sympathetic and useful to Freemasonry.
You actually know what he was thinking?? Thats amazing...
>
> P-2 in the words of the Leader of Italy's Republican Party as "the
> centre of pollution of national life - secret, perverse, and
> corrupting".
It certainly was subversive. It also was not a masonic lodge.
>
> This imbroglio of corruption, blackmail and murder brought down the
> coalition government of premier Arnaldo Forlani and decimated the
> upper echelons of Italian power.
Yes
>
> It was involved in every scam going from the Mafia, Massive Banking Frauds,
> Grotesque Corruption, Selling Secrets to the KGB, Drug Trafficking, and
> Massive C.I.A. Sponsored Electoral Fraud and Assassinations.
This of course is pure speculation. But then again most of what you post is.
>
> It had everything to do with Italian Freemasonry.
Since it was not an actual italian lodge, no it did not.
>
> It was set up by the leadership of Italian Freemasonry and contained all
> the highest ranking Italian Freemasons who evidently didn't mind in
> the slightest sharing fraternal relations with utter scum.
You make this assertion with no supporting evidence. However I am glad to
see that you have at least dropped your pretense of being neutral on masonry
and are now open in your attempts to discredit our fraternity. It makes for
more honest discourse.
>
> And why should the Leadership of the Grand Orient of Italy along with
> remainder of Senior Italian Freemasons have minded this, they were
> after all utter scum themselves.
As I said, at least you are now open in your anti masonry.
>
> The head bagman Lico Gelli had his Freemasons in every decision-making
> centre in Italian politics it reached the very heart of Italian Government
> leadership and passed massive amounts of N.A.T.O. and U.S. Secrets straight in
> to the hands of the K.G.B. (for a little profit of course, kicked back to
> the Grand Orient of Italy).
Again do you have some evidence to support your wild accusations, or are you
simply another lunatic with conspiracy theories??
>
> Lico Gelli was of course found hanging from Blackfriars Bridged in London
> with chunks of masonry stuffed into his pocket as well as other signs of
> fraternity.
YOu have some source for this?? BTW if what he did was condoned by masonry,
why would masons kill him?? You might also note that hanging is not mentioned
in any penalty ever associated with any branch of masonry.
>
> The symbol of Italian Freemasonry is of course a Black Friar.
The symbol of all actual masonry is a square and compass. A "black friar" is
in no way symbolic of any branch of masonry.
>
> The London Police claimed it was a suicide but performed no autopsy, this is
> currently being rectified after over ten years of lobbying by his family.
>
> Gelli's body was recently exhumed and the results could yet involve the
> brethern of Avalon.
>
> This REEEEEAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYY MAKES ME PUKE !!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Rebarfs,
>
> John The Sublime Reformer
It would be nice if you would provide some sources/support for your wild
accusations....
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Richard Jackson, PM
> > Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
> > Corrigan, Texas
> > newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
> >
> > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
St. John The Sublime Reformer
ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7a824o$glk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,> > In article <7a3u3c$fbh$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> > today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
> >
> > Are they all paranoids ? Or have they been victimized or seen there co-
workers
> > victimised by Freemasons ?
> >
> > has been some problem attributed to Freemasonry within the criminal justice
> > field in the U.K.
> >
> > come to the forefront first in the U.K. due to the inherant decency
> > and fair play of British People.
> >
> > pond is probably in order.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > John
> >
> > ========================================================================
> > veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
> > three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
> >
> > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
>
>
> Are you saying that prejudice is evidence of wrongdoing?
------------------------------------------------------------------
John reply:
Certainly not Richard.
Mr. White said that there is innate hostility among High and Middle
ranking Police officers towards the craft today.
Since it's inception I understand U.K. Policing Authorities have tended
to have a higher than average percentage of their High and Middle Ranking
Officers Who are masons than elsewhere.
For the situation to complete reverse itself in less than a generation
is singular.
Todays High and Middle Ranking Officers were yesterdays lower ranking
officers. Where, how, and why did they aquire this "innate
hostility to the craft" (R.White) within less than a generation,
after centuries of their predecesors having completely
opposite sentimates?
Perplexing.
Regards,
John
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard Jackson, PM
> Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
> Corrigan, Texas
> newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
========================================================================
Chuck Mize
St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in
message news:7a824o$glk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>
>Why is there innate hostiliy among High and middle ranking Police officers
>today towards Freemasons within their departments ?
Why don't you call them up and ask them yourself instead of relying on a
book published several years ago that is of dubious scholarly value. "The
Brotherhood" is nothing other than sensationalism and if that is your only
source for the drivel that you post here then you are just one more
misinformed anti. I'm sure in your "research" you came upon books and
newspaper articles that were positive or at least indifferent to Freemasonry
but you don't quote them because they don't fit into your narrow,
preconceived notion of what our fraternity is all about.
You get upset because people snip out parts of your posts when they are
replying to you, but you must understand that everything you are posting has
already been discussed and most of us aren't interested in reading it
hundreds of more times again. You haven't come up with anything original
that hasn't already been discussed here. You are just one more anti who has
nothing original to say.
>To me this is pretty compelling evidence that their is some problem, or
>has been some problem attributed to Freemasonry within the criminal
justice
>field in the U.K.
And how many of these coworkers have you actually talked to? None. You read
a few sensational paragraphs out of a book and that is convincing proof?
Please.
>Perhaps this problem is also as prevelent in other countries but has
>come to the forefront first in the U.K. due to the inherant decency
>and fair play of British People.
>
>I think a line of inquiry into similar matters on this side of the
>pond is probably in order.
A "line of inquiry" might be in order for some individual cases of men who
abuse their membership in the Masonic Lodge, but what you are doing doesn't
even resemble a line of inquiry. What you are doing is regurgitation the
same, worn-out arguments that every other anti who posts to this group has
done before you. I am surprised that you continue to post so much
considering that not one single person in this entire newsgroup has agreed
with anything you have had to say. Not one.
Chuck Mize
Sherwood-Midday Lodge #164
Beaverton Lodge #100
Portland, OR
Chuck Mize
>
>You mean there are books written by masonic authors that discuss
corruption,
>nepotism, cronyism, and malfiesence by freemasons within the criminal
Yes, I'm sure there are books out there like that, but again, it is just
more anti drivel for you to spout. You are not interested in any sort of
truth about Freemasonry because several of us have been trying to point you
in the right direction. Like I have said before, there is nothing special
about your brand of anti-masonry and I'm pretty sure that the only reason
you're doing all of this is so that you can have a special section on Ed
King's website that is devoted just to you. You must be jealous of Ken
Mitchell...
Chuck Mize
>What is the justification for your statement ?
>
>I am not part of any as you say "they", unless of course you
>are referring to non-masons.
>
John, that's just not true. You are just one more anti that we lump together
because you all sound alike.
KIV11
Thanks for beating me to the punch. It is amazing that all of a sudden he
became stupid (if it walks, talks, smells and looks like - it usually is). He
just wouldn't put what I said together. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to
wait for his next bit of nonsense.
Chuck Mize
news:19990215160020...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
I guess we will. Not that I'm that excited to hear his anti song and dance
over and over again...
Alistair Rae
St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
<7a9bog$hd7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> St. John The Sublime Reformer
<st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>> > In article <7a3uql$fhh$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
>> > "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Snipped absolute drivel to reduce bandwidth wastage.
The source of all this is that well known volume of popular
fiction 'the Brotherhood' by Stephen Knight.
When is the 'The masons killed Stephen Knight' fantasy going to
be rolled out for our entertainment ;-) ??
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
Alistair Rae
St. John The Sublime Reformer wrote in message
>In article <19990213100255...@ng23.aol.com>,
> charr...@aol.com (CHarris141) wrote:
>> Dear john,
>>
>> I never thought I would write a dear john letter. Anyway, you
write:
>>
>
ranking
>police officials in the U.K. are biased against Freemasonry
within
>their departments.
Negative.
A quick review of my postings will reveal that I have made no
such statement. As I am not a Policeman, but an Electronics
Engineering Manager, I have no knowledge of the internal opinions
of the Police fraternity.
>>
>> Here is what I would advise you to do. Read books written by
Masonic authors
>> about Freemasonry (ie the first three degrees).
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>You mean there are books written by masonic authors that discuss
corruption,
>nepotism, cronyism, and malfiesence by freemasons within the
criminal
>justice system and other government bodies.
>
Any close examination of the documents which you have cited would
indicate that the claims made in them are unsubstantiated. There
is no mention of supporting evidence within them, and the only
statements in them fall along the lines of 'they were all nasty
to me and I think they are all Masons'.
Since neither 'the Brotherhood' or the sequel 'Inside the
Brotherhood' contain anything which has ever been substantiated
then I think we can doubt their veracity.
In fact a recent statement by Tony Baldry MP, when discussing the
infringement of UK Masons civil liberties, was that of 34
investigations into allegations of Masonic Influence within local
authorities only one had any justification for further
investigation. This later investigation came to a null
conclusion. In contrast, of 5 complaints of discrimination
against Freemasons two have been proved and compensating action
taken.
The 34 investigations mentioned above prove to be the pool of
examples used by Knight and Short for their books.
IMHO the fact that none of the examples used in the books have
actually been supported in a legal investigation indicates that
they are little more than doorstops :)
Alistair Rae MM
UGL
ri...@my-dejanews.com
> ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <7a7r4t$b93$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > > In article <7a3uql$fhh$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> > > "Richard White" <whi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > This last act would of course be just so typical of a democratic regime
-
> > > > wouldn't it? Does it not worry you that the membership list of a
private
> > > > society should be "seized"?
> > >
> > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Well we know now exactly what kind of powers governments not only possess
> > > but actually excercise in times of emergencies like in WW II and natural
> > > disasters democratic or otherwise.
> > >
> > >
> > > lists is I feel a reasonable one to pay and certainly nothing that
> > > has not gone on before in similar uncertain times.
> > >
> > > regardevoux
> > >
> > > John
> > >
>
> > The P-2 situation used as an example of corrupt Freemasons is not a good
> > one. Among Freemasons, P2 is not a recognized organization. It is a
> > corrupt organization which attempted to look honest by adopting a Masonic
> > appearance.
>
> A word on P-2
>
> Your statement that p2 wasn't an official recognized lodge is accurate.
>
> It simply operated like one under the instructions, blessing and,
> complete involvement by "official" Italian Freemasonry.
>
> inaccurate.
>
> grouping of masons.
>
> Grand Orient of Italy, Giordano Gamberini.
>
Question: Is, or was then the Grand Orient Lodge of Itally recognized my most
of the "Regular" Grand Lodge jurisdicitns of the World, or only by other Grand
Orient organizations?
> The Grand Masters plan was to establish a group of eminent men who
> would be sympathetic and useful to Freemasonry.
>
> P-2 in the words of the Leader of Italy's Republican Party as "the
> centre of pollution of national life - secret, perverse, and
> corrupting".
>
> This imbroglio of corruption, blackmail and murder brought down the
> coalition government of premier Arnaldo Forlani and decimated the
> upper echelons of Italian power.
>
> It was involved in every scam going from the Mafia, Massive Banking Frauds,
> Grotesque Corruption, Selling Secrets to the KGB, Drug Trafficking, and
> Massive C.I.A. Sponsored Electoral Fraud and Assassinations.
>
I have no argment with the corruption. The extent of the coruption as far as
intelligence agencies, etc, has yet to be fully proven.
> It had everything to do with Italian Freemasonry.
>
Not everything. There is a regularly organized Grand Lodge of Freemasonry in
Itally which is, and has been regular from its formation. Unlike the P2.
> It was set up by the leadership of Italian Freemasonry and contained all
> the highest ranking Italian Freemasons who evidently didn't mind in
> the slightest sharing fraternal relations with utter scum.
>
> And why should the Leadership of the Grand Orient of Italy along with
> remainder of Senior Italian Freemasons have minded this, they were
> after all utter scum themselves.
>
> The head bagman Lico Gelli had his Freemasons in every decision-making
> centre in Italian politics it reached the very heart of Italian Government
> leadership and passed massive amounts of N.A.T.O. and U.S. Secrets straight in
> to the hands of the K.G.B. (for a little profit of course, kicked back to
> the Grand Orient of Italy).
>
> Lico Gelli was of course found hanging from Blackfriars Bridged in London
> with chunks of masonry stuffed into his pocket as well as other signs of
> fraternity.
>
> The symbol of Italian Freemasonry is of course a Black Friar.
>
The symbol of Grand Orient Itilian Masonry. Please make that distinction. I
can set up a church and call it anything I wish. I could call it Christian
and worship Shiva. Calling it Christian would no more make it a Christian
Church than calling Grand Orient Masonry and P2 makes it regular,
non-clandestine Masonry.
> The London Police claimed it was a suicide but performed no autopsy, this is
> currently being rectified after over ten years of lobbying by his family.
>
> Gelli's body was recently exhumed and the results could yet involve the
> brethern of Avalon.
>
> This REEEEEAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYY MAKES ME PUKE !!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Rebarfs,
>
> John The Sublime Reformer
What? The fact that I do not think your accusations accurate because they
are made of an organizations which was irregular formed from another
organization which was irregular form the get go? My Grand Lodge had no
communication or recognition with them. In any event, even if they had been
recognized, the use of what happened in Italy to attempt to justify the
prejudiced singeling out of any one organization for exposure is in itself
invalid. Unless you are willing to have any part of your private life
exposed for all to see, the loss of individual civil rights should alarm the
Hell out of you. Today, the target is Freemasonry. What if tomorrow, the
target became Catholics in Government in the UK because a vast majority of
IRA is Catholic? Would you be in favor of that?
How about someone's full disclosure of their sex life and partners because
intelligence organizations know one of the easiest ways to subborn someone in
sensitive areas is through sexual blackmail. To prevent that, don't you think
everyone in government or any government job should "dis-clothes" (couldn't
resist the pun) their every sexual escapade and desire? Once this is started,
at what point does it stop? Who decides when it stops or if it does?
ri...@my-dejanews.com
> ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Are you saying that prejudice is evidence of wrongdoing?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> John reply:
>
> Certainly not Richard.
>
> Mr. White said that there is innate hostility among High and Middle
> ranking Police officers towards the craft today.
>
> Since it's inception I understand U.K. Policing Authorities have tended
> to have a higher than average percentage of their High and Middle Ranking
> Officers Who are masons than elsewhere.
>
> For the situation to complete reverse itself in less than a generation
> is singular.
>
> Todays High and Middle Ranking Officers were yesterdays lower ranking
> officers. Where, how, and why did they aquire this "innate
> hostility to the craft" (R.White) within less than a generation,
> after centuries of their predecesors having completely
> opposite sentimates?
>
> Perplexing.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
Perhaps it is true that many former senior officers in law enforcement in the
UK were Freemasons. I have no way to substanciate that, nor does anyone
else. This could just as easily be a matter of perception. One of the most
often quoted books on the subject is "The Brotherhood". The man who wrote
the book had no way of knowing for sure who was and who was not a Mason
unless they revealed themselves to him.
It is also the nature of human beings, and especially low achieving human
beings, to want to blame others for their own short comings. Go to any place
where loosers gather and talk to them. Talk to the homeless, prisoneers in a
prison, workers in a factory who are in production after twenty years, and
you will hear the same thing from the vast majority of them. Their problems
are mainly caused because someone else doesn't like them. It is never
because they didn't get an education, or sold dope, or were not very good
workers. It is always because someone else did something to them, or didn't
like them for one reason or another. Their problems are never their fault.
Perhaps Freemasons were and are considered by some to be elitists who feel
they are somewhat better than other people. Perhaps what small minded people
don't know, they are suspicious or afraid of. These could also play into the
equation rather easily.
I can substanciate that around here, there are many Freemasons who are
members of law enforcement as well as members of the judiciary. There are
also several lawyers. I have never seen any evidence that this caused any
problems here in any degree. Neither have I ever seen anyone cut any slack
because of their Masonic Membership. To tell the truth, the last thing a
Mason here wants is another Mason on the jury in his trial. Masons here tend
to be harder on criminal activity than many other people. If one found out
that a man whose jury thay sat on was a former Mason, it would likely cause
the Mason on the jury to seek the toughest penalty he could for the
defendant.
Floyd Dennis
ki...@aol.com (KIV11) wrote:
<snip>
>Oh well, I guess we'll just have to
>wait for his next bit of nonsense.
Not necessarily. <heh> IMHO his desperate attempts to link us with a
clandestine lodge (and his "scum" statements contained therein)
demonstrate - to me, anyway - that he is deserving (if not desirous)
of the "anti" label. Killfile fodder, as far as I'm concerned.
Life's too short to waste time trying to get *this* pig to carry a
tune. <g>
Floyd Dennis, Jr.
Sam Davis Lodge #661 F.&A.M., Smyrna, Tennessee
http://sam_davis.home.mindspring.com/
32° AASR, S.J. USA, Valley of Nashville, Orient of TN
fbde...@mindspring.com
Alistair Rae
ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7aaiqc$j27$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7aa2q3$5fu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> St. John The Sublime Reformer
<st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>> In article <7a96j3$d89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>I can substanciate that around here, there are many Freemasons
who are
>members of law enforcement as well as members of the judiciary.
There are
>also several lawyers. I have never seen any evidence that this
caused any
>problems here in any degree. Neither have I ever seen anyone
cut any slack
>because of their Masonic Membership.
On thing have noticed during my time as a mason is that many
seem to be high achievers, always pushing themselves in some
manner on another. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that our
membership reflects those levels of society.
Many of my Masonic acquaintances, as with my non Masonic, tend to
be engaged in 'Professional' activities. This includes Doctors,
Lawyers and Barristers, Professional Engineers, Actuaries and
Accountants etc. This is perhaps involved with the content of
freemasonry being attractive to these men intellectually, as part
of their natural desire for self development.
Alistair Rae MM
UGLE
ri...@my-dejanews.com
Brother Rae,
A very good and very valid point. I wish I had thought to bring it up.
Another valid point is that law officers, judges, and officers of the court
are in the service of the people in search of the truth in court. Perhaps the
interior search for the light of truth which each Mason undergoes in his
Masonic journey also appeals to these types of people.
Rog45
because he might be a Brother Mason. It would be against our oath and
teachings. Besides, so many claim to be Masons, that who could distinguish
between the true and the false?
Better to treat all as equals, in Masonry and under the law.
Blood oath? Did I miss something? Well, I cannot refuse or accept the
statement. To asceed to its existance, or to deny it would give a clue to the
real existance, or non-existance to that or any other concept or ritual of
FreeMasonry.
No flames, no fires, just Brotherhood.
Let there be PEACE on Earth, ... and let it begin with ME!
St. John The Sublime Reformer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> Question: Is, or was then the Grand Orient Lodge of Itally recognized my most
> of the "Regular" Grand Lodge jurisdicitns of the World, or only by other Grand
> Orient organizations?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John reply's thus :
Freemasonry was introduced to Italy in about 1733 by an Englishman,
Lord Sackville, but because of its open involvement in politics and
religion Italian Freemasonry was not recognized by the United Grand
Lodge of England until 1973 - in other words it was recognized before
the scandal broke, when this putresence was in full bile expecterant.
Secondly :
The fact that this "lodge" was involved in every type of grotesque
unfraternal treason immaginable obviously didn't seem to bother that
other organization led and staffed chock-a-block by regular "official"
freemasons, The C.I.A.
Nope the bretheren at the Central Intelligence Agency seemed to feel
right at home with this scum.
They knew what they where doing, they conspired with them, and did
absolutely nothing to stop them - they were co-conspirators.
But why should it really surprise anyone that a brethren filled organization
like the C.I.A. would conspire with a criminal organization like Grand Orient
of Italy concordant lodge P-2, they have conspired for years with another
concordant masonic body the M.A.F.I.A. or as it's anachronym spells in
Italian - Mazzini Autorizzi Furti, Incendi, Avelenamenti - Mazzini Authorizes
Thefts, Arson, and Poisoning.
Guiseppi Mazzini (1805-1872) was a soldier, revolutionary, and Freemason who
formed a society in Sicily called the Oblonica, which translates loosley as:
" I reckon with a dagger." As is typical with Masons, Mazzini formed an order
with and order. This elite inner group was called by a term much more
familiar to reader - the mafia !
Mazzini and Albert Pike were the malignant "Bobbsy Twins" of 19th century
Masonry, with Pike founding the Klu Klux Klan running the show in the states,
and Mazzini founding the Mafia running the show on the European Continent.
Ooops didn't your higher lights tell you about this little bit of masonic
history ?
I didn't think so.
JFK anyone ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The Grand Masters plan was to establish a group of eminent men who
> > would be sympathetic and useful to Freemasonry.
> >
> > P-2 in the words of the Leader of Italy's Republican Party as "the
> > centre of pollution of national life - secret, perverse, and
> > corrupting".
> >
> > This imbroglio of corruption, blackmail and murder brought down the
> > coalition government of premier Arnaldo Forlani and decimated the
> > upper echelons of Italian power.
> >
> > It was involved in every scam going from the Mafia, Massive Banking Frauds,
> > Grotesque Corruption, Selling Secrets to the KGB, Drug Trafficking, and
> > Massive C.I.A. Sponsored Electoral Fraud and Assassinations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> I have no argment with the corruption. The extent of the coruption as far as
> intelligence agencies, etc, has yet to be fully proven.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been fully proven Richard check the court and inquiry transcripts for
yourself as well as 10,000 european news articles (the bretheren in the U.S.A.
conviently didn't "encourage" this story to be run in their own backyard).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > It had everything to do with Italian Freemasonry.
> >
>
> Not everything. There is a regularly organized Grand Lodge of Freemasonry in
> Itally which is, and has been regular from its formation. Unlike the P2.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes everything - you have been manipulated by your higher up bretheren just
as non-masons have.
You've been lied to.
The question is now that you know, what are you going to do about it ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get your head out of the sand Richard.
The two are ridiculous comparisons, you might as easily use them for arguing
the non-disclosure of the membership list of organized crime groups.
I'm sure they feel also that their organizations are also "private" and
that the disclosure of their membership lists would also constitute a
"dangerous precedent".
Some company your keeping.
Are you sure Freemasonry isn't a religion ?
You certainly seem to be "keeping the faith".
Regards
St. John The Sublime Reformer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard Jackson, PM
> Corrigan Masonic Lodge #1103 AF&AM
> Corrigan, Texas
> newsgroup article copyright 1999, all rights reserved by Richard Jackson
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
========================================================================
St. John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar system of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on his
three grand principles - Brotherly love, relief, and truth.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
eas...@redriverok.com
> >
> > Question: Is, or was then the Grand Orient Lodge of Itally recognized my
most
> > of the "Regular" Grand Lodge jurisdicitns of the World, or only by other
Grand
> > Orient organizations?
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> John reply's thus :
>
> Freemasonry was introduced to Italy in about 1733 by an Englishman,
> Lord Sackville, but because of its open involvement in politics and
> religion Italian Freemasonry was not recognized by the United Grand
> Lodge of England until 1973 - in other words it was recognized before
> the scandal broke, when this putresence was in full bile expecterant.
>
Well you start of erroneously. There where masonic lodge is italy as early as
the 1500's. What happened in the 1700's is communication began between those
lodges and the newly formed United Grand Lodge of England.
> Secondly :
>
> The fact that this "lodge" was involved in every type of grotesque
> unfraternal treason immaginable obviously didn't seem to bother that
> other organization led and staffed chock-a-block by regular "official"
> freemasons, The C.I.A.
Again totally unsubstantiated allegations from a man who hides his identity
and refers to himself as "st john". Get a grip.
>
> Nope the bretheren at the Central Intelligence Agency seemed to feel
> right at home with this scum.
What "bretheren at the Central Intllegence Agency". Where did you get the
idea that the CIA had any higher percentage of masons than anyother
profession??
>
> They knew what they where doing, they conspired with them, and did
> absolutely nothing to stop them - they were co-conspirators.
Really and you might actually have evidence for this???
>
> But why should it really surprise anyone that a brethren filled organization
> like the C.I.A. would conspire with a criminal organization like Grand Orient
> of Italy concordant lodge P-2, they have conspired for years with another
> concordant masonic body the M.A.F.I.A. or as it's anachronym spells in
> Italian - Mazzini Autorizzi Furti, Incendi, Avelenamenti - Mazzini Authorizes
> Thefts, Arson, and Poisoning.
You are once again dead wrong. The Mafia is a a sicillian organization that
actually refers to itself as La Cosa Nostra not the Mafia. The word Mafia
comes from media hype. As usuall you simply have no idea what you are talking
about.
>
> Guiseppi Mazzini (1805-1872) was a soldier, revolutionary, and Freemason who
> formed a society in Sicily called the Oblonica, which translates loosley as:
> " I reckon with a dagger." As is typical with Masons, Mazzini formed an order
> with and order. This elite inner group was called by a term much more
> familiar to reader - the mafia !
And you have some evidence that he was a freemason??
>
> Mazzini and Albert Pike were the malignant "Bobbsy Twins" of 19th century
> Masonry, with Pike founding the Klu Klux Klan running the show in the states,
> and Mazzini founding the Mafia running the show on the European Continent.
And again you have some evidence?? I would be really shocked to see an Italian
and presumably a catholic involved in founding the KKK>
>
> Ooops didn't your higher lights tell you about this little bit of masonic
> history ?
Who told you, the voices in your head??
St. John The Sublime Reformer
ri...@my-dejanews.com
St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <7ahubs$15$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> St. John The Sublime Reformer <st_john_t...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > In article <7aahlb$i3u$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > ri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > John reply's thus :
> >
> > Freemasonry was introduced to Italy in about 1733 by an Englishman,
> > Lord Sackville, but because of its open involvement in politics and
> > religion Italian Freemasonry was not recognized by the United Grand
> > Lodge of England until 1973 - in other words it was recognized before
> > the scandal broke, when this putresence was in full bile expecterant.
> >
> > Secondly :
> >
> > The fact that this "lodge" was involved in every type of grotesque
> > unfraternal treason immaginable obviously didn't seem to bother that
> > other organization led and staffed chock-a-block by regular "official"
> > freemasons, The C.I.A.
> >
> > Nope the bretheren at the Central Intelligence Agency seemed to feel
> > right at home with this scum.
> >
> > They knew what they where doing, they conspired with them, and did
> > absolutely nothing to stop them - they were co-conspirators.
> >
Undoubtedly there might be Freemasons in the CIA. Your claim that the CIA is
"Brethern Filled" have no substanciation in data. Please provide the
supporting data to prove your claim.
> > But why should it really surprise anyone that a brethren filled organization
> > like the C.I.A. would conspire with a criminal organization like Grand
Orient
> > of Italy concordant lodge P-2, they have conspired for years with another
> > concordant masonic body the M.A.F.I.A. or as it's anachronym spells in
> > Italian - Mazzini Autorizzi Furti, Incendi, Avelenamenti - Mazzini
Authorizes
> > Thefts, Arson, and Poisoning.
> >
> > Guiseppi Mazzini (1805-1872) was a soldier, revolutionary, and Freemason who
> > formed a society in Sicily called the Oblonica, which translates loosley as:
> > " I reckon with a dagger." As is typical with Masons, Mazzini formed an
order
> > with and order. This elite inner group was called by a term much more
> > familiar to reader - the mafia !
> >
Total fabrication. La Cosa Nostra is an orgainzation which came out of
Sicily. It is this organization which was given the name La Mafia by news
men and women. Nothing to do with Freemaosnry, although there might have
been ties with the ourlaw and totally irregular P2 Lodge.
> > Mazzini and Albert Pike were the malignant "Bobbsy Twins" of 19th century
> > Masonry, with Pike founding the Klu Klux Klan running the show in the
states,
Get your facts straight. I thought Nathanial Bedford Forrest, former general
of the Confederate States of America was a founder of the KKK.
> > and Mazzini founding the Mafia running the show on the European Continent.
> >
> > Ooops didn't your higher lights tell you about this little bit of masonic
> > history ?
> >
> > I didn't think so.
> >
> > JFK anyone ?
> >
> >
They can not tell me what isn't fact except in your imagination.
You hadn't informed them of your theories when I became a Mason.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > It has been fully proven Richard check the court and inquiry transcripts for
> > yourself as well as 10,000 european news articles (the bretheren in the
U.S.A.
> > conviently didn't "encourage" this story to be run in their own backyard).
> >
> >
Newspaper articles, especially by certain newspapers engaging in yellow
journalism, are not factual data which can be relied upon. Why not quote
proven data used in court which substanciates the things you claim.
>
> > Yes everything - you have been manipulated by your higher up bretheren just
> > as non-masons have.
> >
> > You've been lied to.
> >
> > The question is now that you know, what are you going to do about it ?
> >
Prove your statement.
> >
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get your head out of the sand Richard.
> >
> > The two are ridiculous comparisons, you might as easily use them for arguing
> > the non-disclosure of the membership list of organized crime groups.
> >
The comparisons are not ridiculous. Individual civil rights are fragile
things easily taken away by over zealous or dictatorial governments. If one
group loses the right to privacy, which is next? Who is going to decide who
should disclose membership and who wouldn't? Would you like to disclose
everything about yourself to the World at large? Perhaps you will give us a
detailed disclosure of your bank accounts, physical and mental health
history, credit rating, criminal record or lack there of, etc. etc. etc. To
tell you the truth, all of this information about anyone is already recorded
and can be accessed if it is part of the record in anyone's files. Privacy
issues are the only things which keep the release of such data at bay right
now.
> > I'm sure they feel also that their organizations are also "private" and
> > that the disclosure of their membership lists would also constitute a
> > "dangerous precedent".
> >
> > Some company your keeping.
> >
And when did the Mafia or any other truely secret organizations disclose
their membership. I have yet to see an congress person, judge, or cop
willingly disclose that part of their income is related to the underworld,
yet over the years, there have been many exposures of such. The KKK used to
have a rule that if a member was arrested, he was immediately expelled from
the organization. This allowed the former member to truthfully swear that he
was not a member of the Klan in a court of law.
I keep quite good company actually. Men whom I know I can trust who are
good and faithful friends.
> > Are you sure Freemasonry isn't a religion ?
> >
> > You certainly seem to be "keeping the faith".
> >
I'm positive Freemasonry is not a religion. I'm not "keeping the faith". I
am telling the truth about an organization which I have either been a member
of or been aware of for over forty years. An organization which my father,
uncles, and great-grandfather were or are members of. None of us have ever
seen anything even mildly related to the wild accusations you make about the
Fraternity.
You do seem to be a bit disturbed by the fact that I asked you to provide
reliable facts and data to support your claims. So far, all I have seen you
do is quote other anti-Masonic authors' also unsubstanciated ravings.
Quoting someone else who has not substanciated their claims is not
substanciation of your accusations. For someone to prove a claim or
accusation requires a logical sequence of verifyable data and facts. You
have provided none. Why don't you take one, just one claim you made in the
above post linking Freemasonry to the criminal activities you claim, and
support it with verifyable evidence? Not newspaper articles from yellow
rags, but actual cases of court records which prove your case. Data gathered
by the police and other agencies which is irrefutable. Can you do that? If
you can, then do so. Be sure to quote specific case numbers, where they can
be found, etc, etc. Then, we will have a logical basis upon which to discuss
what you claim.
> > Regards
> >
> > St. John The Sublime Reformer
> >
Newport, Jerry
were sworn to protect their brother Freemasons should they engage in immoral
or criminal conduct. The royal arch mason swore, " I will aid and assist a
companion royal arch mason, when engaged in any difficulty, and espouse his
cause, so far as to extricate him from the same, if in my power, whether he
be right or wrong... A companion royal arch mason's secrets, given me in
charge as such, and I knowing him to be such, shall remain as secure and
inviolable, in my breast as in his own, murder and treason not excepted, &c"
(pg. 9, The Address of the U.S. Anti-Masonic Convention, 1830).
http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/antim.html
Rog45 wrote in message <19990216235755...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
Newport, Jerry
Newport, Jerry
Newport, Jerry
Jack Hickey
<tamREMOVEMEmSPAM*BL...@doREMOVEnet.com> wrote:
>The royal arch mason swore, (...)
>(pg. 9, The Address of the U.S. Anti-Masonic Convention, 1830).
You're quoting NOT ONLY from a 169-year-old document, but one that
was published by people who obviously had their own agendum to
pursue, and acknowledged it right in their title.
Jack Hickey, MM
Senior Deacon
Isaiah Thomas Lodge
Worcester MA
ri...@my-dejanews.com
"Newport, Jerry" <tamREMOVEMEmSPAM*BL...@doREMOVEnet.com> wrote:
> While not overtly encouraged to participate in criminal activity, Freemasons
> were sworn to protect their brother Freemasons should they engage in immoral
> or criminal conduct. The royal arch mason swore, " I will aid and assist a
> companion royal arch mason, when engaged in any difficulty, and espouse his
> cause, so far as to extricate him from the same, if in my power, whether he
> be right or wrong... A companion royal arch mason's secrets, given me in
> charge as such, and I knowing him to be such, shall remain as secure and
> inviolable, in my breast as in his own, murder and treason not excepted, &c"
>
>
> Rog45 wrote in message <19990216235755...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
> >I don't think a Judge or juriest would allow a criminal to go free, just
> >because he might be a Brother Mason. It would be against our oath and
> >teachings. Besides, so many claim to be Masons, that who could distinguish
> >between the true and the false?
> >
> >Better to treat all as equals, in Masonry and under the law.
> >
> >Blood oath? Did I miss something? Well, I cannot refuse or accept the
> >statement. To asceed to its existance, or to deny it would give a clue to
> the
> >real existance, or non-existance to that or any other concept or ritual of
> >FreeMasonry.
> >
> >No flames, no fires, just Brotherhood.
> >Let there be PEACE on Earth, ... and let it begin with ME!
>
>
And, as is usual for your posts, you quote from Acacia Press, an
electronic anti-Masonic commercial company which makes its living selling
books to poor fools like you. In addition, the source of this
enlightenment which Mr. Crocker quotes is only one hundred and sixty nine
years old.
If something like this was presented as evidence to support a dissertation
before any academic jury in the World in any University, the presenter would
likely be laughed out of the room. It is also likely that not only
would the dissertation not be accepted, but the applicant him or herself
would be taken out of the graduate program for such shoddy methods.
This is typical of the "proof" you offer for your accusations. You need
to find something better to do with your time, or learn how to
adequately research and prove your statements.
CHarris141
>
Sorry, was not part of my obligation as a Royal Arch Mason.
Chris Harris
McDonald Lodge # 324 AF & AM Independence, Missouri
(Junior Warden & Education Officer)
York Rite, York Rite College, 32° AASR (SJ), Order of True Kindred,
homepage: http://members.aol.com/CHarris141/mason.html
Copyright 1999 by Christopher Harris