Understanding Freemasonry
Ed King
> [critiques wanted please...]
<Massive snip of what appears to be a word-for-word plagiarism of
another work previously published in the US and found on the web as well>
Want a critique? Head to the web site below!
Ed
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
John Enigma
Masons.
From what I understand is Masons search for the truth, while not condemning
a particular religion. I have been studying other religious texts and have
found interesting things while doing my own research. If I depended strictly
on the church or other traditional Christian organizations to answer my
questions--they would rather have me stay in ignorant bliss. Why is it such
a sin for individuals to even hint that other texts may actually be
referencing the same thing? Just look at the story of Gilgamesh and the
reference to a Great Flood, if you've read the story it sounds remarkably
familiar.
As for sticking to the bible. I believe that the bible is the inspired word
of God given to men which they wrote down. Then through the ages
institutions of men have poked and prodded and decided which books should be
in it and which should not be. Take for instance the Book of Enoch which is
clearly referenced in the New Testament by Jude. This book alone would
answer many questions a Christian could encounter. If the Book of Jude is
inspired text and clearly the Word of God, then why do the institutions tell
me that the Book of Enoch is not inspired and should not be taken seriously
even though it is referenced in one that is. To me this makes no sense.
I'm the type of person who reads the bible and if I encounter an issue that
I don't understand clearly, I'm going to research it. Usually the pastor or
even the bible does not clearly define things and I have to go to different
texts to get a better understanding. For example the Three Magi (not wise
men, though they probably were wise) that gave Jesus the gifts at birth. How
many Christians know what Magi are? And how many preachers are willing to
tell them?
From what I understand is that the Masons take all of these texts seriously
and promote the sharing of ideas. Clearly this cannot be a terrible thing.
My relationship is with Jesus Christ. Different religious texts may all
refer to the same God, but it is up to me to choose my path to salvation.
This is something that is personal to the individual and not something
driven by a group. It seems that the Masons are promoting a clearer
understanding and an open exchange of ideas between their members. Is this
wrong? It seems the ones preaching against the Masons are espousing hate and
condemnation. For what--a willingness to learn more about their God?
If an individual relies totally on their church or church leaders to give
them the answers then they will surely be in the dark and lack an
understanding. In order to develop a personal relationship with God, then
it's time to get personal and do the research. From my personal experience
it seems many pastors today want to keep the reigns on their members and to
eliminate any personal understanding of the bible. Any groups that promote
otherwise are seen as evil, it's easy to place a label on a particular
group. The hard part is gaining an understanding, that takes time and
research.
Even in the beginning of the church some practiced their faith in secret for
fear of being put to death for their beliefs. Were they wrong?
If I am wrong in my perceptions of the Masons, then please clarify this for
me.
Regards,
John Enigma
I'm actually not a Mason, honest. I use a pseudo name so I don't receive
hate mail for expressing my thoughts. It is a functional e-mail though.
Rowland C. Croucher
Understanding Freemasonry
6.30 pm, Sunday 9 August 1998
It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
as Freemasonry. Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
aprons!
The earliest historical records of the practice of Freemasonry date from
London in 1717, with the first minutes of a Masonic meeting at 1723.
Around this time James Anderson wrote his Constitutions, a revision of a
14th century stonemason’s Christian guidebook. Through the 18th and
19th centuries Lodges sprang up all over Britain and its colonies, as
well as the United States.
Freemasons progress through a series of degrees involving secret oaths
and rituals. All Masons are initiated into the “Blue Lodge,” consisting
of three degrees. Upon completion of the third degree the candidate
attains the rank of “Master Mason.”
>From this point a Mason may pursue further degrees through one of two
paths: the “York Rite” or the more popular “Scottish Rite.” There are
also affiliated minor orders.
We’ll approach the subject of Freemasonry by examining three questions.
Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a fraternal society? Is it
compatible with Christianity? And what public statements have
mainstream Christian denominations made regarding their members’
involvement in Freemasonry?
** 1. Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a
fraternal society? **
The New Dictionary of Theology (Leicester: IVP, 1988) defines a religion
as “belief in God or gods, together with the practical results of such a
belief as expressed in worship, ritual, a particular view of the world
and of the nature and destiny of man, and the way someone ought to live
his daily life” (p. 575).
Some Masons argue that their society is not a religion but merely a
fraternal society. We can apply this definition to their beliefs and
practices, looking at their own writings, to identify whether
Freemasonry is secular or religious.
If it is a religion, then Christian Freemasons need to explain why they
practice another religion, no matter how compatible it is with Christian
faith.
First, as to belief in God or gods, the first degree candidate is asked,
“In whom do you put your trust?” and he answers, “In God.”
According to Manly Hall, a 33rd degree Mason, the brothers should “enter
the temple (i.e. Lodge) in reverence, for it is in truth the dwelling
place of a Great Spirit, the Spirit of Masonry” (The Lost Keys of
Freemasonry (Richmond: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply Co., 1976)
100).
Second, regarding the expression of religious belief in ritual, worship,
worldview and human destiny, the testimony is equally convincing. “Our
lodges stand on holy ground,” says the First Degree Ritual, Tracing
Board (p. 76), “because the first lodge was consecrated by three grand
offerings thereon made, which met with Divine approbation (Abraham,
David and Solomon). Those three did then, do now, and I trust ever
will, render the ground of Freemasonry holy.”
Hall, in The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, states that “the mason must
realise that his true initiation is a spiritual and not a physical
ritual” (p. 34).
In The Worshipful Master and What He Should Know (A. Lewis Publishers,
1975), G. Blakey explains that “the hoodwink [ritual blindfold?]
represents the darkness before birth, before education and spiritual
enlightenment” (p. 32).
As Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia reveals, Freemasons even have special
funeral rites: “a religious service to commit the body of a deceased
brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit
back to the Great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight
with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the
religion of Freemasonry” (New York: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply
Co., 1961) 512.
Third, do the religious beliefs of Freemasonry influence a member’s
daily life? They do. In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
a 24-inch gavel, symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
compass to remind him that "perseverance is necessary to establish
perfection, that the rude material can receive its fine polish from
repeated efforts alone, and that nothing short of indefatigable exertion
can induce the habit of virtue, enlighten the mind, and purify the soul"
(First Degree Ritual, Working Tools, pp. 71-72).
A Freemason’s daily life is also influenced by the spiritual power of
the first three degrees: "There he stands (outside) our portals, on the
threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and
ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered only with
the pollutions of the outer and profane world, he comes inquiringly to
our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil
which conceals divine truth from his uninitiated sight" (A. Mackey, A
Manual of the Lodge (New York: Charles Merrill, 1870) 20).
The Masonic Encyclopedia admits that, like Christianity, Freemasonry is
also a religion, and that “the difference between a Lodge and a church
is one of degree and not of kind” (Coil, Masonic Encyclopedia, p. 512;
cf Lyndon Ellis, Blinded By the Lie, p. 42).
Freemasonry involves a belief in an all-powerful deity, the practice of
prayers, pledges, oaths, hymns, readings from sacred literature, a
particular view of human destiny, and teachings on sin, salvation and
ethical action.
There is no doubt that Freemasonry is a religion. The question is: why
do Christians who are also Freemasons practise a rival religion? Is it
really another religion? Is Freemasonry incompatible with Christian
faith?
** 2. Is Freemasonry compatible with Christianity? **
Many Christians who are Freemasons have researched neither its teachings
nor its practices. What does Freemasonry teach about major Christian
doctrines?
Freemasonry regards sacred books of other religions, such as the Koran,
as equivalent to the Bible; and it expresses something less than
commitment to the Bible itself: “the Bible, with all the allegories it
contains, expresses, in an incomplete manner only, the religious science
of the Hebrews” (A. Pike, Morals and Dogma (Charlestown: Southern
Jurisdiction of the US, Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree, 1958) 744).
Although when he wrote to the churches of Galatia, Paul did not have
Freemasonry in mind, his words are pertinent to our present subject: "I
am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you
by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is
really no gospel at all . . . If anybody is preaching to you a gospel
other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned"!
(Galatians 1:6-7a, 9b; cf 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
Belief in God is essential to Freemasonry, but God is understood as the
“Great Architect of the Universe,” the “All-Seeing Eye,” or the “Great
Spirit.” As Ellis says, “Freemasonry doesn’t teach its members to have
a relationship with Jesus, or with the Holy Spirit . . . But the Father
of Freemasonry is absent, silent, violent, non-expressive, partial,
prejudiced, and a perfectionist” (p. 160).
Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
names. The Masonic Quarterly Bulletin of July 1915, for example, stated
that Freemasonry “invites to its altar men of all faiths, knowing that,
if they use different names for ‘the Nameless One of a hundred names,’
they are praying to the one God and Father of all” (p. 17).
Contrast this to the explicit words of the first Commandment: “I am the
Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2-3; cf Deuteronomy
6:4; Matthew 4:10).
Regarding Jesus Christ, Freemasons emphasise his ethical teaching but
marginalise or ignore his deity, his saving work, and his participation
in the trinity of persons who form the one God of Christianity. They
also place Jesus on a par with other great religious leaders:
"[Freemasonry] reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses,
the Lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of
Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, great teachers of morality, and
eminent reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the Order to
assign to each such higher and even divine character as his creed and
truth require" (Pike, Morals and Dogma, 525).
The New Testament writers were unanimous in their affirmation that Jesus
Christ was and is unique, and that his mission was equally unique, and
that he was quite unlike other religious teachers. It is Jesus alone
who died and rose again; it is Jesus alone of whom Paul declared: "God
exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above
every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
In contrast to evangelical Christianity, Freemasonry denies the
doctrines of original sin and human depravity. For example, in Carl
Claudy’s Little Masonic Library (vol. 4; 1946: 51), we’re told that "The
perfection is already within. All that is required is to remove the
roughness and the excrescences [i.e. abnormal growth], ‘divesting our
hearts and consciences of all devices and superfluities of life’ to show
forth the perfect man and Mason within. Thus the gavel becomes also the
symbol of personal power."
Notice the emphasis on personal betterment and working toward
perfection, which is said to be innate and within our grasp. The Bible
teaches that none of us is righteous; in fact, we are slaves to sin
until we ask Jesus to free us and forgive us (see Romans 3:23; 6:22-23;
John 8:31-36). Likewise, John says: "If we claim to be without sin we
deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all
unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8-9).
If Freemasonry adopts the view of secular humanism in relation to our
sins, neither does it offer any clear plan for human salvation. All it
really offers is a vague allusion in the Masonic funeral service “to a
certain ‘pass’ whereby we may obtain entrance into the Grand Lodge above
. . . (and) immortality. We are told that this pass is the pass of a
pure and blameless life” (Ball, The Builder, 1:287). Contrast this with
Romans 1:16-17; John 14:1-6).
Freemasonry also shares commonalities with witchcraft and the occult.
In his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, A. Mackey reveals that “much light,
it must be confessed, is thrown on many of the mystical names in the
higher degrees by these dogmas of magic; and hence magic furnishes a
curious and interesting study for the Freemason” (Philadelphia: McClure,
1924: 459).
Some occult rituals and practices adopted by Freemasonry - and carrying
with them their occult symbolism - include the twelve star signs on the
roof of a Masonic Lodge; the serpent eating its tail; circumambulation;
the inverted five-pointed star; the equilateral triangle and other
geometric shapes; the point within a circle; the speaking of mantras and
of sacred words not mentioned in the Bible; the east-west alignment of
Masonic Lodges; the three basic degrees of initiation; and the practice
of striking a blindfolded initiate on the head before giving him new
light (see also J.F. Newton, ‘The degrees of Masonry,’ Little Masonic
Library (vol. 4; 1946: 171-252)).
The Bible forbids believers to be involved in any form of witchcraft or
occultism (see Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Exodus 7-8; Leviticus 19:31; 1
Samuel 28).
Many evangelical Christians also see conflicts between Freemasonry and
biblical teaching in the areas of the taking of secret oaths and the
practice of racism among Freemasons.
** 3. What public statements have mainstream Christian
denominations made **
regarding their members’ involvement in Freemasonry?
Interestingly, the only avowedly Christian tradition that is not
permitted to participate in Freemasonry, so far as I know, is
Mormonism, many of whose rituals bear strong similarity to those
practiced in Masonic Lodges.
On the other hand, most Christian churches forbid members to be involved
in Masonic Lodges. The Roman Catholic church has long opposed
Freemasonry. Again, so far as I know, no Christian denomination in the
world that has undertaken a serious investigation of Freemasonry this
century has subsequently affirmed the involvement of Christians in the
Lodge.
The Lutheran Church of Australia has stated that “all organisations,
whether secret and oath-bound or open, which are either avowedly
religious, or practise the forms of religion, without confessing as a
matter of principle the Triune God and Jesus Christ as the Son of God
come in the flesh and our Saviour from sin . . . are anti-Christian”
(Doctrinal Statements and Theological Opinions, 1956).
The Baptist Union of Scotland concluded that “total obedience to Christ
precludes joining any organisation such as the Masonic movement which
seems to demand a whole-hearted allegiance to itself, and at the same
time refuses to divulge all that is involved in that allegiance prior to
joining . . . The initiate is required to commit himself to Masonry in a
way that a Christian should only commit himself to Christ” (1965).
The Baptist Union of Great Britain and Ireland concluded its inquiry
into Freemasonry by declaring that “there is an inherent incompatibility
between Freemasonry and the Christian faith. Also that commitment
within the movement is inconsistent with a Christian’s commitment to
Jesus Christ as Lord” (1988).
The Presbyterian Church of Queensland noted that “Freemasonry
transgresses the first three Commandments by its use of titles and
attributes of God not revealed in Scripture” (The Lodge and
Presbyterianism, 1987: 20)).
Its Victorian counterpart went further in its 1997 Assembly Minutes:
“[We] declare Freemasonry to be totally incompatible with Christianity
and therefore sinful . . . [We] request all ministers and elders to act
pastorally in the church in a manner appropriate to their situation for
the help and deliverance of Freemasons.”
Similar statements have been made by the Wesleyan Methodist Church of
Australia, the Salvation Army (both in Australia and at its 1991
International Leaders’ Conference), and by the Anglican Diocese of
Sydney.
In the face of such united opposition by Christian denominations to
their members’ involvement in Freemasonry, and in the face of the fact
that Christianity is incompatible with Freemasonry on biblical and
theological grounds, it is surprising that - apparently - no Baptist
Union in Australia has made a public declaration on the issue one way or
the other.
One thing is certain: Baptist churches in Australia are not exempt from
the influence of Freemasonry, and many Australian Baptist churches have
members who are also Freemasons.
In the United States, a resolution at the Southern Baptist Convention in
the mid-1980s questioned the compatibility of Freemasonry with the
denomination’s doctrinal statements. Many Southern Baptist ministers
and laypeople were practising Freemasons, and the resolution caused
quite a stir.
The Convention directed the Home Mission Board to study the issue, but
the Board side-stepped the issue, claiming that Freemasonry did not fall
within the scope of its responsibilities since the Board’s own
Interfaith Witness Department did not recognise Freemasonry as a
religion!
Eventually, in 1992, the Southern Baptist Convention formally directed
the Interfaith Witness Department itself to study the compatibility of
Southern Baptist and Masonic doctrine.
In March 1993 the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention
published a report on Freemasonry. The report commended Freemasonry for
its works of charity and education, and for upholding values such as
honesty, integrity, industry and moral character; and noted several
incompatibilities, such as the use of offensive titles such as
“Worshipful Master,” bloody oaths and obligations, the pagan and occult
nature of many of the writings of past Masons, the Bible’s shared role
among other items in Masonic temples, the doctrine of salvation by
works, the doctrine of universalism (i.e. that all will be saved), and
the refusal of most American Masonic Lodges to admit African Americans
to membership.
The report concluded with a strangely ambivalent statement reminiscent
of the style of Sir Humphrey in Yes, Prime Minister: "In light of the
fact that many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible
with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, while others are
compatible . . . we therefore recommend that consistent with our
denomination’s deep convictions regarding the priesthood of the believer
and the autonomy of the local church, membership in a Masonic Order be a
matter of personal conscience" (“A Report on Freemasonry” by the Home
Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, reproduced in
Christian News 31 (21), 24 May 1993: 3).
One of the ironies of this finding is that its faulty logic can be
applied to Jehovah’s Witnesses, yet Southern Baptists do not allow
participation and cooperation of their members with Witnesses “as a
matter of personal conscience”!
It seems to me that the otherwise stringently evangelical Southern
Baptists have found it necessary to compromise their doctrine and
witness when it comes to associations with Freemasonry. The lesson for
Baptists in Australia is not to fall into the same trap when the issue
is raised within our fellowships.
As I said at the beginning of this series of messages, if our churches
were properly fulfilling our mission, many people would not need to have
their felt needs met by cults and pseudo-Christian organisations. We
have a biblical mandate to minister to the whole needs of people in our
communities: spiritual, emotional, social and physical needs.
If you’re personally involved in Freemasonry, do some research and
decide where your allegiance lies. If you have friends or family who
are involved, share with them your reservations and beliefs, and pray
for them.
If you’re approached by a Mason and encouraged to join, it pays to be
prepared; ask some leading questions, and expect some serious and honest
answers.
You owe it to yourself, and to those you influence, to seek the truth
and to live in the light - the Light of the One true God who has fully
revealed himself in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, who has died for
your sins and who alone is able to free you from slavery, turn your
darkness into light, and offer you the hope of eternal life.
Copyright © 1998 Rod Benson. All rights reserved. Sermon 180 presented
at Blakehurst Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia, on Sunday 9 August
1998. Unless otherwise noted, scripture quotations are from The Holy
Bible: New International Version (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1980).
[References to the experience of a Uniting Church minister friend with
parishioners who were also Freemasons, and to an interview with an
ex-Freemason during the service in which this sermon was preached, have
been deleted from the text]
Recommended reading:
Lyndon Ellis, How to Tell If You’ve Been Blinded By the Lie (Mt Walker,
Qld: Wagtail Graphics, 1997).
George A. Mather & Larry A. Nichols, Masonic Lodge (Grand Rapids:
Zondervan, 1995).
L. James Rongstad, How to Respond to the Lodge (St Louis: Concordia,
1977).
[To order Lyndon Ellis' book, call (07) 3288 7799 or write to 49 Edwards
St, FLINDERS VIEW 4305 AUSTRALIA.]
--
Shalom! Rowland Croucher (rowl...@mira.net)
John Mark Ministries - resources for pastors/leaders
(Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham Trading Post)
WEBSITE (1600+ articles 1000+ links 7000+ hits a day)
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm
MasonTruth
>From: "Rowland C. Croucher" <rowl...@mira.net>
>Date: 11/3/98 11:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <363F4FCF...@mira.net>
>
>Recommended reading:
>Lyndon Ellis, How to Tell If You’ve Been Blinded By the Lie (Mt Walker,
>Qld: Wagtail Graphics, 1997).
>George A. Mather & Larry A. Nichols, Masonic Lodge (Grand Rapids:
>Zondervan, 1995).
>L. James Rongstad, How to Respond to the Lodge (St Louis: Concordia,
>1977).
>
>[To order Lyndon Ellis' book, call (07) 3288 7799 or write to 49 Edwards
>St, FLINDERS VIEW 4305 AUSTRALIA.]
>
And your point is????? Dear Sir, All joking aside, you went through one heck of
a lot of trouble just to sell a book... Freemasonry is not a religion but I can
see how it would be financially wise for you to say it is... After all how
would so-called men of God like yourself make a living if they couldn't sell
anti-Masonic
tracts and books? Seeing people like yourself who use God as a forum to sell
hate and lies is truly disheartening..
Sorry But No Cigar!!!
Sincerely & Fraternally
A Mason & a Christian.
MasonTruth
Bro. Manny Blanco
Moreno Valley Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, CA
TYC45
In the U.K a candidate is asked "In all case's of danger, in whom do you put
your trust" and not simply "In whom do you put your trust" as you stated.
John Hickey
<rowl...@mira.net> wrote:
>[critiques wanted please...]
Thank you for the invitation.
While I am not able to comment in detail on the positions of the
Evangelical churches, as I am happily not a member of any of them,
I am pleased to tell you that this treatise misrepresents Freemasonry
in detail and in nearly every particular.
>It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
>as Freemasonry.
Difficult to determine the origins? Read John Robinson's book,
"Born in Blood."
Freemasonry is a world-wide Fraternity. The Lodge is a unit of that
Fraternity. In this sentence above, you are using "Masonic Lodge" as
a synonym for "Freemasonry," which is grossly incorrect.
>Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
>Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
>aprons!
I have never heard this, but I've heard other equally egregiously
stupid claims. Masonic lessons are couched in allegory. The use of
the fig leaf as an apron could be considered one such.
In any case, no REGULAR Masonic lodge would consider Mother Eve to be
one of the first Freemasons, regardless of her dress or lack of it.
>The earliest historical records of the practice of Freemasonry date from
>London in 1717, with the first minutes of a Masonic meeting at 1723.
>Around this time James Anderson wrote his Constitutions, a revision of a
>14th century stonemason’s Christian guidebook. Through the 18th and
>19th centuries Lodges sprang up all over Britain and its colonies, as
>well as the United States.
The above is correct, as far as I know.
>Freemasons progress through a series of degrees involving secret oaths
>and rituals.
Correct, with the exception of the word "secret." This does change
the tenor of the argument a bit, though, doesn't it?
> All Masons are initiated into the “Blue Lodge,” consisting
>of three degrees. Upon completion of the third degree the candidate
>attains the rank of “Master Mason.” From this point a Mason may pursue
> further degrees through one of two paths: the “York Rite” or the more
> popular “Scottish Rite.” There are also affiliated minor orders.
This is correct, although the term "Blue Lodge" is something of a
pejorative. The proper term, I think, would be "Craft" Lodge.
Whether the York Rite or the Scottish Rite is "more popular" depends
largely on the jurisdiction.
>If it is a religion, then Christian Freemasons need to explain why they
>practice another religion, no matter how compatible it is with Christian
>faith.
And if it is not a religion, as Freemasons claim, then Evangelical
Christians need to explain why they object so strongly to a Fraternity
which teaches the lessons of "Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth."
Could it be that the churches fail so miserably in the practical
application of their teachings that they have to object to any form of
competition?
>Some Masons argue that their society is not a religion but merely a
>fraternal society.
Precisely. It is a Fraternity which teaches and stresses the
practical applications of those lesson which the churches should be
teaching, in the teaching of which the churches fail miserably.
The churches teach: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;" the
Masonic lodge takes that teaching out of the pages of the Book which
Evangelicals so love to memorize without understanding, and provides
a framework and a support system within which the individual Mason can
work together with his brethren, to actually put that teaching into
practice.
>Second, regarding the expression of religious belief in ritual, worship,
>worldview and human destiny, the testimony is equally convincing. “Our
>lodges stand on holy ground,” says the First Degree Ritual, Tracing
>Board (p. 76), “because the first lodge was consecrated by three grand
>offerings thereon made, which met with Divine approbation (Abraham,
>David and Solomon). Those three did then, do now, and I trust ever
>will, render the ground of Freemasonry holy.”
I still cannot understand why Evangelical Christians have such
difficulty understanding the concepts of "allegory" and "symbolism."
>In The Worshipful Master and What He Should Know (A. Lewis Publishers,
>1975), G. Blakey explains that “the hoodwink [ritual blindfold?]
Yes. The hoodwink is a blindfold.
>As Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia reveals, Freemasons even have special
>funeral rites: “a religious service
A memorial service, I think, rather than a religious service.
I am a soldier. A year ago, I conducted a memorial service for a
departed comrade; I am not an ordained minister and the service I said
was never intended to be "religious." It was a celebration of a
fellow soldier's life, and a farewell. The Masonic service is
similar.
>Third, do the religious beliefs of Freemasonry influence a member’s
>daily life? They do.
Let's hope so.
> In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
>a 24-inch gavel,
A 24-inch gavel?
Go read that book you're copying out of again. If it really says,
"24-inch gavel," throw the book away. Quickly. This is not only
nonsense, -----> it's totally absurd, bordering on stupidity. <-----
> symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>compass
Nope. Wrong. Not correct in ANY particular. Congratulations.
Absolutely wrong.
>A Freemason’s daily life is also influenced by the spiritual power of
>the first three degrees:
Only if he is very fortunate.
>The Masonic Encyclopedia admits that, like Christianity, Freemasonry is
>also a religion, and that “the difference between a Lodge and a church
>is one of degree and not of kind”
But that difference in degree is a BIG difference. You can say
absolutely the same thing about two different churches, also.
>The question is: why
>do Christians who are also Freemasons practise a rival religion?
Simplest answer: they don't.
>Many Christians who are Freemasons have researched neither its teachings
>nor its practices.
Many Christians have little idea what the teachings of Christianity
are, friend. They hear the words, but not the music.
There is MORE to Christianity than memorizing passages out of a Book.
>Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
>acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
>names.
Correct. How many different gods do YOU think we should be
acknowledging?
>Many evangelical Christians also see conflicts between Freemasonry and
>biblical teaching in the areas of the taking of secret oaths and the
>practice of racism among Freemasons.
Many evangelical Christians cannot see goodness anywhere except in the
little white church they attend; and if they sit on the left side of
the church, they doubt the orthodoxy of the people on the right side
of the church, and they suspect the opinions of the people in the rows
in front of them and behind them.
Evangelical Christianity is *NOT* Christianity. It is the moral and
religious equivalent of hate-mongering racism.
Freemasonry has not been free of the stain of racism, but we're
getting better. I can't say the same about the hateful
Evangelical "Christian" churches.
>Interestingly, the only avowedly Christian tradition that is not
>permitted to participate in Freemasonry, so far as I know, is
>Mormonism, many of whose rituals bear strong similarity to those
>practiced in Masonic Lodges.
Grossly incorrect. Many Mormons are fine Masons, and vice-versa.
There was a problem years ago which has since been corrected; and it
was NOT the LDS Church which forbade its members to be Masons; it was
the Grand Lodge of Utah which refused to admit Mormons. This is no
longer the case.
Many years ago, I was a Mormon. I have since left that Church, for
reasons which have no bearing here, but I was an Elder of the LDS for
many happy years and I did receive the Temple Endowment in
1986. It was a very moving, very religious experience and I have
never lost my high regard for the fine people of that Church.
I have my own theories about the reasons for the similarities between
the Temple Endowment and the EA degree, and I will NOT discuss either
one in an open newsgroup.
>If you’re approached by a Mason and encouraged to join, it pays to be
>prepared; ask some leading questions, and expect some serious and honest
>answers.
This is wise advice at any time, and applies equally well not only to
Freemasonry, but to nearly any other sphere of activity, including
churches.
Jack Hickey
Senior Deacon
Isaiah Thomas Lodge
Worcester MA
CHarris141
>[critiques wanted please...]
>
>Understanding Freemasonry
>
>6.30 pm, Sunday 9 August 1998
>
>It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
>as Freemasonry. Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
>Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
>aprons!
Can you give proof of this outrageous statement. No where is it taught that the
charge you have made is correct.
>The earliest historical records of the practice of Freemasonry date from
>London in 1717, with the first minutes of a Masonic meeting at 1723.
Again you are mis informed. Please note and I quote:
"The Grand Lodge of Scotland is custodian of the oldest Lodge records in the
world being those of Aitchison's Haven. The first entry in the Minute Books of
that Lodge is dated 9th January 1598. Prior to 1602 the Scottish New Year began
on 25th March. By modern reckoning, therefore, the anniversary will not take
place until 9th January 1999. It must immediately be said that this Lodge no
longer exists. The oldest records of a Lodge which is in existence still are
those belonging to The Lodge of Edinburgh (Mary's Chapel), No.1. The minutes of
that Lodge commence on 31st July 1599."
Andersons Constitutions were around 1723 though.
> a revision of a
>14th century stonemason’s Christian guidebook
First time I have heard that one.
>If it is a religion, then Christian Freemasons need to explain why they
>practice another religion, no matter how compatible it is with Christian
>faith.
Freemasonry is a religous fraternity. All teaching of the Craft Lodge is from
the story of King Solomons Temple. It has many religious aspects to it but
does not go as far as a religion because it has no sacrements, does not define
what Sin or Salvation is, Does not select a particular Holy book, Does not tell
a member how to belief, But it does tell the member to be active in the
Religion of his choice and that his duty to God comes before the duty to
Freemasonry which is after his family.
>“In whom do you put your trust?” and he answers God
That is correct, No Athiest may be made a Freemason.>
>According to Manly Hall, a 33rd degree Mason, the brothers should “enter
>the temple (i.e. Lodge) in reverence, for it is in truth the dwelling
>place of a Great Spirit, the Spirit of Masonry” (The Lost Keys of Freemasonry
(Richmond: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply Co., 1976)
>100).
, Manly Hall didn't become a Mason until 1954, so his 1923 book, Lost Keys of
Freemasonry, represents the personal theories of a non-Mason. Further, Mr. Hall
(who passed away in August 1990) was a self-avowed mystic and not a "leading
authority" of Freemasonry. He was a promulgator of mystic and theosophical
philosophies; his writings have not received official sanction by any Masonic
bodies. The fact that he held the Thirty-third Degree and was respected by many
Thirty-Third Degree Masons and even by the Supreme Councils 33º is no more
significant than the fact that various Baptist, Anglican, or Methodist authors
also hold or held that honor.
-Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry by Art DeHoyos & S. Brent Morris
Rest of nonsense about Manly P. Hall snipped because it is not accurate of
Freemasonry as defined by above quote.
>They do. In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
>a 24-inch gavel, symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>compass to remind him that "perseverance is necessary to establish
>perfection
Where in the heck is that from? You may want to study up a bit because there
is no such thing as a 24 inch Gavel. The gavel is a working tool of the EA
degree but compasses is not a working tool per the lectures of any Masonic Blue
Lodge degree (in Missouri).
You also go on to quote several sources way out of date and Mackey is not an
authority nor does he have bearing on me being a Freemason 128 yrs later in
Missouri.
>Freemasonry involves a belief in an all-powerful deity, the practice of
>prayers, pledges, oaths, hymns, readings from sacred literature, a
>particular view of human destiny, and teachings on sin, salvation and
>ethical action.
Freemasonry requires a belief in God - TRUE
We have opening and closing prayers in lodge as it is the utmost of importance
to ask Divine guidence before doing anything in life. - TRUE
We Do not define Sin, Salvation nor have teachings on them.. Please get better
educated.
>Freemasonry regards sacred books of other religions, such as the Koran,
>as equivalent to the Bible
No you mis understand. If the aspirant of Freemasonry is of another faith, His
obligations are taken upon the Holy Book of his faith so they are binding upon
him. All ritual and allegories are taken from the Old Testament. The Book of
faith of a Mason is his rule and guide of faith and practice, to me it is the
Bible, the Koran and others have no bearing on what I believe. Your statement
is untrue.
>Freemasonry doesn’t teach its members to have
>a relationship with Jesus, or with the Holy Spirit . .
True we do not as we are not a religion.
>Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
>acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
>names.
Jews, Muslims and Christians all revere God, the God of Abraham. They worship
and understand him in differant ways. When a Mason prays he does so to the God
in whom he trusts. That is the beauty of Freemasonry, drawing men together who
have differing beliefs, not judging them but working together for a common goal
of good morals and helping others and the less fortunate. Can Christianity say
the same?
>Regarding Jesus Christ, Freemasons emphasise his ethical teaching but
>marginalise or ignore his deity,
We are not a Christian organization therefore we are incapable of defining
Jesus as Devine. let the Church do that, they do a good job.
McDonald Lodge # 324 AF & AM (Junior Warden)
Independence, Missouri
York Rite, York Rite College, 32nd AASR (SJ), Knight of Jericho - Order of True
Kindred, Shriner, Hillbilly Clan # 124
Paul C. Dickie
<jhi...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:47:43 -1000, "Rowland C. Croucher"
><rowl...@mira.net> wrote:
>>Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first Masons, and that
>>the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first aprons!
>I have never heard this, but I've heard other equally egregiously
>stupid claims. Masonic lessons are couched in allegory. The use of
>the fig leaf as an apron could be considered one such.
But would it not be rather too small to protect one from chips of stone?
Anyway, I can hardly imagine Adam and Eve as Freemasons. For one thing,
there were insufficient people around at the time to hold a Lodge; for
another, they'd have suffered from a near-total dearth of candidates...
>And if it is not a religion, as Freemasons claim, then Evangelical
>Christians need to explain why they object so strongly to a Fraternity
>which teaches the lessons of "Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth."
I'd guess that their brand of "Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth" is
conditional to belonging to their creed, doctrine or sect, and thus they
consider that Universal brotherly love, relief and truth, applying
equally to people of other faiths is, somehow, anathema to them.
>> In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives a 24-inch gavel,
>
>A 24-inch gavel?
Perhaps he meant a pavior's maul? o-)
>Go read that book you're copying out of again. If it really says,
>"24-inch gavel," throw the book away. Quickly. This is not only
>nonsense, -----> it's totally absurd, bordering on stupidity. <-----
It is only with difficulty that I've stopped laughing from the image
that popped into my mind of a warden needing both hands to raise the
gavel before he could give the knocks...
>> symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>>compass
>Nope. Wrong. Not correct in ANY particular. Congratulations.
>Absolutely wrong.
And he also omitted the gold watch, didn't he? o-)
>>Many Christians who are Freemasons have researched neither its teachings
>>nor its practices.
Many Christians have researched neither the history nor the origins of
their Church. So what?
>>Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
>>acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
>>names.
>Correct. How many different gods do YOU think we should be
>acknowledging?
Perhaps he would insist on Jews being converted to Christianity -- and
by force, if necessary?
>>Many evangelical Christians also see conflicts between Freemasonry and
>>biblical teaching in the areas of the taking of secret oaths and the
>>practice of racism among Freemasons.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Eh? As far as I'm concerned, there is no question of racism in
Freemasonry. OTOH, I'd query if all evangelical Christians can claim
that there is no racial segregation in their churches, or that there has
never been such segregation in their churches. Do they embrace Jews as
their brethren and, if not, why not?
>Freemasonry has not been free of the stain of racism, but we're
>getting better. I can't say the same about the hateful
>Evangelical "Christian" churches.
Some of those putatively "Christian" churches do make one wonder...
--
< Paul >
Paul C. Dickie
<rowl...@mira.net> wrote:
>[critiques wanted please...]
And you'll get one.
>In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
>a 24-inch gavel, symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>compass to remind him that "perseverance is necessary to establish
>perfection, that the rude material can receive its fine polish from
>repeated efforts alone, and that nothing short of indefatigable exertion
>can induce the habit of virtue, enlighten the mind, and purify the soul"
>(First Degree Ritual, Working Tools, pp. 71-72).
That, my dear chap, is utter balderdash; it is completely and utterly
wrong and does not even begin to approximate to the working tools of the
Entered Apprentice.
>The Masonic Encyclopedia admits that, like Christianity, Freemasonry is
>also a religion, and that the difference between a Lodge and a church
>is one of degree and not of kind (Coil, Masonic Encyclopedia, p. 512;
>cf Lyndon Ellis, Blinded By the Lie, p. 42).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aha! So now it becomes clear why you posted piffle; you'd been reading
piffle and you'd been misinformed thereby.
>Freemasonry involves a belief in an all-powerful deity, the practice of
>prayers, pledges, oaths, hymns, readings from sacred literature, a
>particular view of human destiny, and teachings on sin, salvation and
>ethical action.
Put in those terms, a Lodge meeting would appear to conduct a religious
service, yet that would not adequately describe the business of a Lodge.
>There is no doubt that Freemasonry is a religion.
Perhaps that might be true for the bamboozled author of the flummery
you've been reading, but it isn't remotely accurate.
>Is it really another religion?
No.
>Is Freemasonry incompatible with Christian faith?
No more so than membership of the Automobile Association...
>What does Freemasonry teach about major Christian doctrines?
It doesn't, as such. It teaches brotherly love, relief from suffering
and truth, but it doesn't claim them to be Christian doctrines.
>Although when he wrote to the churches of Galatia, Paul did not have
>Freemasonry in mind, his words are pertinent to our present subject: "I
>am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you
>by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is
>really no gospel at all . . . If anybody is preaching to you a gospel
>other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned"!
>(Galatians 1:6-7a, 9b; cf 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
No "gospel" is taught or preached in Masonic lodges. The business of a
Lodge is not a religious service.
>Belief in God is essential to Freemasonry, but God is understood as the
>Great Architect of the Universe, the All-Seeing Eye, or the Great
>Spirit. As Ellis says, Freemasonry doesn't teach its members to have
>a relationship with Jesus, or with the Holy Spirit . . .
Correct -- and why should it? Masonry does not seek to teach or enforce
any particular religion or creed.
>Contrast this to the explicit words of the first Commandment: I am the
>Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of
>slavery. You shall have no other gods before me (Exodus 20:2-3; cf
>Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 4:10).
And I don't. Now tell me -- when did you last eat pork?
Yet is not pork forbidden to the adherents of the Almighty that brought
the Children of Israel out of bondage in the land of Pharoah?
Me? I'm a vegetarian...
>Regarding Jesus Christ, Freemasons emphasise his ethical teaching but
>marginalise or ignore his deity, his saving work, and his participation
>in the trinity of persons who form the one God of Christianity. They
>also place Jesus on a par with other great religious leaders:
No, no, no and thrice more, no.
Masonry has no teaching whatever about Christ, or His ethical teachings.
Masonry is not a religion and does not claim to be a religion. Each and
every member retains his own religion; Jewish Masons remain Jewish,
Islamic Masons remain Islamic and Christian Masons remain Christian.
>The New Testament writers were unanimous in their affirmation that Jesus
>Christ was and is unique, and that his mission was equally unique, and
>that he was quite unlike other religious teachers. It is Jesus alone
>who died and rose again;
I believe that, if you take the care to look at other religions of 100BC
to 100 AD, you may find that a similar claim was made of/for Mithras.
I'm not preaching Mithraism, but it is not wise to make such sweeping
statements when they are demonstrably inaccurate.
>In contrast to evangelical Christianity, Freemasonry denies the
>doctrines of original sin and human depravity.
And that would *never* do, would it? Without those "catch-all"
doctrines, pompous, po-faced preachers wouldn't be able to maintain any
advantage over the congregation, would they? Why, the congregation
might even begin to see that the preacher is, at best, only a man much
as themselves and, at worse, that he's not unlike Frank Baum's "Wizard
of Oz".
The rest of your posting contains equal amounts of bunkum and blather.
It is a waste of time addressing each point in turn, for I rather
suspect that you've already made up your mind before you posted what, on
reflection, I expect was probably a "troll".
>[To order Lyndon Ellis' book,
Why should one order that rubbish? Newspaper is better for lighting
barbeques and, moreover, newspaper is cheaper.
--
< Paul >
Bordure
>Message-id: <363F4FCF...@mira.net>
>
>[critiques wanted please...]
Ok you asked for it.
>Understanding Freemasonry
>
>6.30 pm, Sunday 9 August 1998
>
>It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
>as Freemasonry.
Yes becasue it is an organisation that evolved instead of spring in to
exsistence. Or that is what the best historical research can determine.
> Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first >Masons, and that the fig
leaves they >wore were the society’s first aprons!
Never heard this one before what is the source of this information for with
out a source it is meaningless.
>The earliest historical records of the practice >of Freemasonry date from
London in 1717, with >the first minutes of a Masonic meeting at 1723 Around
this time James Anderson wrote his >Constitutions, a revision of a 14th century
stonemason’s Christian guidebook. Through the 18th >and >19th centuries Lodges
sprang up all over Britain and its colonies, as well as the United >States.
>
>Freemasons progress through a series of degrees involving secret oaths
>and rituals. All Masons are initiated into the “Blue Lodge,” consisting
>of three degrees. Upon completion of the third degree the candidate
>attains the rank of “Master Mason.”
All Craft Mason recieve degrees through Master Mason the others are apendant
bodies.
>>From this point a Mason may pursue further degrees through one of two
>paths: the “York Rite” or the more popular “Scottish Rite.” There are
>also affiliated minor orders.
>We’ll approach the subject of Freemasonry by examining three questions.
>Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a fraternal society? Is it
>compatible with Christianity? And what public statements have
>mainstream Christian denominations made regarding their members’
>involvement in Freemasonry?
>
> ** 1. Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a
>fraternal society? **
>
>The New Dictionary of Theology (Leicester: IVP, 1988) defines a religion
>as “belief in God or gods, together with the practical results of such a
>belief as expressed in worship, ritual, a particular view of the world
>and of the nature and destiny of man, and the way someone ought to live
>his daily life” (p. 575).
Using the defintion above maonry does require that each of it members have a
religion For a group to be a religion we would all have to share the same
beliefs about the God worshiped. Masonry does not set such standards for the
members.
>Some Masons argue that their society is not a religion but merely a
>fraternal society. We can apply this definition to their beliefs and
>practices, looking at their own writings, to identify whether
>Freemasonry is secular or religious.
>
>If it is a religion, then Christian Freemasons need to explain why they
>practice another religion, no matter how compatible it is with Christian
>faith.
Only if the tenets of the religion were different from what they already
believed otherwise it woud be semantics. As Masonry only requires a belief in
a supreme being and does not define the supreme being or set that being goals
for salvation or any other requiremnts for faith we are not a religion
>First, as to belief in God or gods, the first degree candidate is asked,
>“In whom do you put your trust?” and he answers, “In God.”
And the same could be said for the boy scouts.
>According to Manly Hall, a 33rd degree Mason, the brothers should “enter
>the temple (i.e. Lodge) in reverence, for it is in truth the dwelling
>place of a Great Spirit, the Spirit of Masonry” (The Lost Keys of
>Freemasonry (Richmond: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply Co., 1976)
>100).
You would have given this author more credibility if you had not said ye was a
33ed degree mason. As when he wrote the book he was not a mason and would not
join the fraturnity for several years. Further you attempt to give credibiltiy
by quote the publisher as a masonic supply co. with a date of 1976 which is
the date of reprint not of writing this leads to false assumptions. The
writing of lost keys is colored by the time frame in which it was written which
was the 1920's if memory serves. So what Hall had to say then is meaningless
to what freemasonry thinks it applies only to what a non mason thought.
>Second, regarding the expression of religious belief in ritual, worship,
>worldview and human destiny, the testimony is equally convincing. “Our
>lodges stand on holy ground,” says the First Degree Ritual, Tracing
>Board (p. 76), “because the first lodge was consecrated by three grand
>offerings thereon made, which met with Divine approbation (Abraham,
>David and Solomon). Those three did then, do now, and I trust ever
>will, render the ground of Freemasonry holy.”
Since you do not credit the above line it makes it hard to give you the best
answer the easy one is this has not been said in any lodge that I have been
present in. Although there are difference in rituals. But is this a religous
belief in ritual or is is worship I would say no
>Hall, in The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, states that “the mason must
>realise that his true initiation is a spiritual and not a physical
>ritual” (p. 34).
Again you quote a book written by then a non mason so it is the opinion of a
non mason. It has no bearing on Masonry except as what a person tthough about
masonry when he wrote it.
>In The Worshipful Master and What He Should Know (A. Lewis Publishers,
>1975), G. Blakey explains that “the hoodwink [ritual blindfold?]
>represents the darkness before birth, before education and spiritual
>enlightenment” (p. 32).
As masonry could be called a search for light or knowledge the symbolism would
be appropriate.
>As Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia reveals, Freemasons even have special
>funeral rites: “a religious service to commit the body of a deceased
>brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit
>back to the Great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight
>with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the
>religion of Freemasonry” (New York: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply
>Co., 1961) 512.
Yes Masonry does hav a ceremony where we say goodbye to a departed brother and
pray each in our own way that he will be attain that house built no with hands
eternal in the heavans . but the many groups have this type of ceremony done
either in conjuction or seperately from a religious service. The military
being the most common one I can think of. It would be nice if you had
finished the quote from coil however. Where he goes on to say that a brother
who depends soley on masonry for his salvation has made a mistake. ( how did
you happen to mis that very important part of the text.
>Third, do the religious beliefs of Freemasonry influence a member’s
>daily life? They do. In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
>a 24-inch gavel, symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>compass to remind him that "perseverance is necessary to establish
>perfection, that the rude material can receive its fine polish from
>repeated efforts alone, and that nothing short of indefatigable exertion
>can induce the habit of virtue, enlighten the mind, and purify the soul"
>(First Degree Ritual, Working Tools, pp. 71-72).
naughty naughty the attmpt here is to show the beliefs of Masonry are a
religion by calling it religous beliefs you assume the proof is made. Do the
belifs of freemasnory influence a members life Of course they do as Masons are
encourage to remember others act uprightly and stay in control of there actions
How could these fail. The working tools given above are incorrect
per any first degree I have sat through Try a little more research.
continued
Bordure.
Fred Larson
#37 AFAM Edmond
AASR Valley of Guthrie
No one has the right to tell someone else what they believe in is wrong unless
they are willing to give everyone else the same right.
Floyd Dennis
> [critiques wanted please...]
>
> Understanding Freemasonry
>
> 6.30 pm, Sunday 9 August 1998
>
> It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
> as Freemasonry. Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
> Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
> aprons!
I have *never* heard a Mason make this claim. I have, however, heard/read
this claim made by those opposed to Masonry, in a transparent attempt to
manufacture a target for their ammunition.
<snip>
>
> According to Manly Hall, a 33rd degree Mason,
> the brothers should “enter
> the temple (i.e. Lodge) in reverence, for it is in truth the dwelling
> place of a Great Spirit, the Spirit of Masonry” (The Lost Keys of
> Freemasonry (Richmond: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply Co., 1976)
> 100).
Your statement is EXTREMELY (and deliberately?) misleading, in that you
give the impression Hall wrote "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry" backed by a
personal knowledge of the Fraternity. You do not acknowledge the commonly
known fact that "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry" was written by Hall several
decades BEFORE he ever set foot in a working Masonic Lodge. His personal
knowledge of Masonic teachings at the time of his authorship was precisely
the same as (apparently) yours - zilch.
Critical readers should ask themselves this question - if Mr. Croucher
(and others like him) had *real* proof that Freemasonry conflicted with
the basic tenets of Christianity, should they not be able to prove their
case from *within* those Christian tenets? Did Christ ever ask His
disciples to lie to and/or mislead people for Him?
<the rest snipped as rubbish masquerading as analysis>
Floyd Dennis, Jr.
Sam Davis Lodge #661, GL of Tennessee
http://sam_davis.home.mindspring.com/
32° AASR, S.J. USA, Valley of Nashville, Orient of TN
fbde...@mindspring.com
Bordure
>the first three degrees: "There he stands (outside) our portals, on the
>threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and
>ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered only with
>the pollutions of the outer and profane world, he comes inquiringly to
>our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil
>which conceals divine truth from his uninitiated sight" (A. Mackey, A
>Manual of the Lodge (New York: Charles Merrill, 1870) 20).
This may be from Mackey, as I do not have the work I can not say However in
the work I have seen these words are not used. Masonry does try to show a
better way to live your life. Yes The person awithing is unware of the
lessons we will try to teach and feels what we have to share is valuable to him
personally.
>The Masonic Encyclopedia admits that, like Christianity, Freemasonry is
>also a religion, and that “the difference between a Lodge and a church
>is one of degree and not of kind” (Coil, Masonic Encyclopedia, p. 512;
>cf Lyndon Ellis, Blinded By the Lie, p. 42).
Again it would be nice to have the full quote from the primary source insted of
from a secondayr with an obvious agenda. Also one must admit there are many
defineitions of religion It is a logical falacy to assume Coil was using
yours.
>Freemasonry involves a belief in an all-powerful deity, the practice of
>prayers, pledges, oaths, hymns, readings from sacred literature, a
>particular view of human destiny, and teachings on sin, salvation and
>ethical action.
yes T be a freemason you must believe a God is this objectionalble
Yes we believe man should praye to his creator
the all teaching hold value and should be read for such and that the Bible
hold many valuable lesson a simple truth.
We do not however teach on Sin Salvation or distiney. We do belief a mason
should work fairly with all manking.
>There is no doubt that Freemasonry is a religion. The question is: why
>do Christians who are also Freemasons practise a rival religion? Is it
>really another religion? Is Freemasonry incompatible with Christian
>faith?
There is much doubt if freemasonry is a religion Why would a christian have
any problem associating with a group who believes in Treating all men fairly,
brotherly love, relief, Tolerance and a beleif in the creator.
> ** 2. Is Freemasonry compatible with Christianity? **
>
>Many Christians who are Freemasons have researched neither its teachings
>nor its practices. What does Freemasonry teach about major Christian
>doctrines?
Actually Freemasonry teaches that each man should get invloved with his own
religion as much as possible and that his duty to God comes before all others.
>Freemasonry regards sacred books of other religions, such as the Koran,
>as equivalent to the Bible; and it expresses something less than
>commitment to the Bible itself: “the Bible, with all the allegories it
>contains, expresses, in an incomplete manner only, the religious science
>of the Hebrews” (A. Pike, Morals and Dogma (Charlestown: Southern
>Jurisdiction of the US, Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree, 1958) 744).
Freemasonry belives that the religious teaching of any religion are valid for
the people who believe in them and that each man has a right to find or chose
what he will believe.
As to the bible most of its teaching are in allegories ar is not and each
person must interpt them for himself with the help of God.
>Although when he wrote to the churches of Galatia, Paul did not have
>Freemasonry in mind, his words are pertinent to our present subject: "I
>am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you
>by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is
>really no gospel at all . . . If anybody is preaching to you a gospel
>other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned"!
>(Galatians 1:6-7a, 9b; cf 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
I fail to see the connection AS Freemasonry encourages it members to be
active participants in their churchs As we teach no gospels and we preach to
no one How does it apply?
>Belief in God is essential to Freemasonry, but God is understood as the
>“Great Architect of the Universe,” the “All-Seeing Eye,” or the “Great
>Spirit.” As Ellis says, “Freemasonry doesn’t teach its members to have
>a relationship with Jesus, or with the Holy Spirit . . . But the Father
>of Freemasonry is absent, silent, violent, non-expressive, partial,
>prejudiced, and a perfectionist” (p. 160).
>
Masonry not being a religion does not teach it members in the christian
religion or any other. It does encourage it members to practice there faith
without asking what it is. Now this is followed with a defintion of what
masonry has for a father which is interesting as masonry has never done it.
>Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
>acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
>names. The Masonic Quarterly Bulletin of July 1915, for example, stated
>that Freemasonry “invites to its altar men of all faiths, knowing that,
>if they use different names for ‘the Nameless One of a hundred names,’
>they are praying to the one God and Father of all” (p. 17).
Freemasonry and freemason are not interchangeable terms What a freemason
believes is person what the organization states is quite another. Freemasonry
requires a belief in a supreme being by definition there can only be one. If
the membership believes in a supreme being Well you can follow the logic.
Know freemasonry does not define the supereme being but leaves it to the
members religion to do that. A christian will have his view and a Hindu will
have his. As your relationship with God is personal Freemasonry allows it to
be just that.
>Contrast this to the explicit words of the first Commandment: “I am the
>Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
>You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2-3; cf Deuteronomy
>6:4; Matthew 4:10).
And freemasonry let you follow that completely We force nor encourage any many
to believe other than that he believes.
>Regarding Jesus Christ, Freemasons emphasise his ethical teaching but
>marginalise or ignore his deity, his saving work, and his participation
>in the trinity of persons who form the one God of Christianity.
As we are not teaching religion this is true. We also do not teach about any
other belief system in lodge but again leave it to the members religion.
> They >also place Jesus on a par with other great religious leaders:
>"[Freemasonry] reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses,
>the Lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of
>Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, great teachers of morality, and
>eminent reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the Order to
>assign to each such higher and even divine character as his creed and
>truth require" (Pike, Morals and Dogma, 525).
This is what Pike said in one place which would seem to Place Jesus on a par
But as this is out of context it is meaning less One could have just as
easily have quoted Pike where he says That Jesus is the Greatest of all
teachers which is in Morales and Dogama as well. But we are taking about
morale lesson and not religion Although Morales and Dogama is a book on
comparitive religion. Whose goal is to show how there are certain truths all
religions hold in common. Or the area of agreement .
>The New Testament writers were unanimous in their affirmation that Jesus
>Christ was and is unique, and that his mission was equally unique, and
>that he was quite unlike other religious teachers. It is Jesus alone
>who died and rose again; it is Jesus alone of whom Paul declared: "God
>exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above
>every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
>and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus
>Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
A false argument of course the writings that were chosen for the bible all
agree it was planned that way. Sort of why you don't see any of the writing of
James. But to teach the above would make freemasonry a religion which we are
not. You are basing the argument on a book of faith with the only proof of
authority being faith. The majority of the worlds population would disagree
with this.
>In contrast to evangelical Christianity, Freemasonry denies the
>doctrines of original sin and human depravity. For example, in Carl
>Claudy’s Little Masonic Library (vol. 4; 1946: 51), we’re told that "The
>perfection is already within. All that is required is to remove the
>roughness and the excrescences [i.e. abnormal growth], ‘divesting our
>hearts and consciences of all devices and superfluities of life’ to show
>forth the perfect man and Mason within. Thus the gavel becomes also the
>symbol of personal power."
>
Since masonry is not a religion why should it agree with any sect or
denomination or faith. But let us use the argument put forth just for fun.
Ecangelical Christianty says man is tainted by orginal sin and is depraved.
Claudy says that deep inside man is a spark of perfection. (maybe his faith in
God and in Christ promise of Salvation) When he gives up those things not
important ot salvation he becomes a better person. Sort of like what Jesus
told the rich man to do. Think not about self but others.
>Notice the emphasis on personal betterment and working toward
>perfection, which is said to be innate and within our grasp. The Bible
>teaches that none of us is righteous; in fact, we are slaves to sin
>until we ask Jesus to free us and forgive us (see Romans 3:23; 6:22-23;
>John 8:31-36). Likewise, John says: "If we claim to be without sin we
>deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins,
>he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all
>unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8-9)
Again since Freemasonry is not a religion why does the writer insist we teach
one. masnory teaches that we can make a difference in the here and now and
that we should turn to our religion for the hereafter. The lesson works with
out faith is meaningless but so is faith without commitment
Masonry can not save your soul and does not pretend that it can and in fact
tells you to look to your faith. It does tell you that you can better yourself
and your world by implementing some simple rules for living. Happily these
rules for live fit in very nicely with what the great teachers have said.
>If Freemasonry adopts the view of secular humanism in relation to our
>sins, neither does it offer any clear plan for human salvation. All it
>really offers is a vague allusion in the Masonic funeral service “to a
>certain ‘pass’ whereby we may obtain entrance into the Grand Lodge above
>. . . (and) immortality. We are told that this pass is the pass of a
>pure and blameless life” (Ball, The Builder, 1:287). Contrast this with
>Romans 1:16-17; John 14:1-6).
AS Freemasonry is a secular organization why is there a problem with a secular
view. We pray for our departed brother that he will be found worthy. What is
the problem with this?
>Freemasonry also shares commonalities with witchcraft and the occult.
>In his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, A. Mackey reveals that “much light,
>it must be confessed, is thrown on many of the mystical names in the
>higher degrees by these dogmas of magic; and hence magic furnishes a
>curious and interesting study for the Freemason” (Philadelphia: McClure,
>1924: 459).
AS this quote is completly out of context it is meaningless Freemasonry
encourgages study in all things .
>Some occult rituals and practices adopted by Freemasonry - and carrying
>with them their occult symbolism - include the twelve star signs on the
>roof of a Masonic Lodge; the serpent eating its tail; circumambulation;
>the inverted five-pointed star; the equilateral triangle and other
>geometric shapes; the point within a circle; the speaking of mantras and
>of sacred words not mentioned in the Bible; the east-west alignment of
>Masonic Lodges; the three basic degrees of initiation; and the practice
>of striking a blindfolded initiate on the head before giving him new
>light (see also J.F. Newton, ‘The degrees of Masonry,’ Little Masonic
>Library (vol. 4; 1946: 171-252)).
>
Okay lets start with the silliest of these. The east west alignment of the
lodge. Most churches are alighned this way as was King Solumon Temple lets
get real. Most of the word spoken in lodge are english and can be found in the
bible KJV at any rate as the language is archaic. Since I have never seen the
signs of the zodiac around the roof of a lodge give it up. the snake eating
its tail again sorry. But it is the age old symbol for eternity. The
equallaeral triangle. a symbol of the trintiy also the shape the US flag is
folded into sorry again Symbols have only themeaning given to them by the
users not from the outstide. And striking on the head before being given
light sorry wrong here to.
>The Bible forbids believers to be involved in any form of witchcraft or
>occultism (see Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Exodus 7-8; Leviticus 19:31; 1
>Samuel 28).
Actually I think you will find it is divination Since we don't do it what is
the problem.
>Many evangelical Christians also see conflicts between Freemasonry and
>biblical teaching in the areas of the taking of secret oaths and the
>practice of racism among Freemasons.
Well if you have a problem giving a sollum promise sorry As I read it bible
it says swar not friviolus or by thing you can not control. Since all the
oaths I have taken have not been friviolus
starting with my oath on entering service doesnot wash.
> ** 3. What public statements have mainstream Christian
> denominations made **
>regarding their members’ involvement in Freemasonry?
>
>Interestingly, the only avowedly Christian tradition that is not
>permitted to participate in Freemasonry, so far as I know, is
>Mormonism, many of whose rituals bear strong similarity to those
>practiced in Masonic Lodges.
As joseph Smith was a Mormon how does that figure.
>On the other hand, most Christian churches forbid members to be involved
>in Masonic Lodges. The Roman Catholic church has long opposed
>Freemasonry. Again, so far as I know, no Christian denomination in the
>world that has undertaken a serious investigation of Freemasonry this
>century has subsequently affirmed the involvement of Christians in the
>Lodge.
Most huh Lets see Bishop Carl Saunders Joseph Fort Newton, Norman Vncient
Peale to name just a few.
>The Lutheran Church of Australia has stated that “all organisations,
>whether secret and oath-bound or open, which are either avowedly
>religious, or practise the forms of religion, without confessing as a
>matter of principle the Triune God and Jesus Christ as the Son of God
>come in the flesh and our Saviour from sin . . . are anti-Christian”
>(Doctrinal Statements and Theological Opinions, 1956).
>
Since we are not a religion not a problem
>The Baptist Union of Scotland concluded that “total obedience to Christ
>precludes joining any organisation such as the Masonic movement which
>seems to demand a whole-hearted allegiance to itself, and at the same
>time refuses to divulge all that is involved in that allegiance prior to
>joining . . . The initiate is required to commit himself to Masonry in a
>way that a Christian should only commit himself to Christ” (1965).
I would disagree with this a Masonry teaches a man's first obligations and
duties are to God
>And the result which is not mention above is that ther was no problem except
for certain vocal minorities
>The Convention directed the Home Mission Board to study the issue, but
>the Board side-stepped the issue, claiming that Freemasonry did not fall
>within the scope of its responsibilities since the Board’s own
>Interfaith Witness Department did not recognise Freemasonry as a
>religion!
You should read the results of Dr. Leazers study after which he became a
freemason.
>Eventually, in 1992, the Southern Baptist Convention formally directed
>the Interfaith Witness Department itself to study the compatibility of
>Southern Baptist and Masonic doctrine.
>
>In March 1993 the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention
>published a report on Freemasonry. The report commended Freemasonry for
>its works of charity and education, and for upholding values such as
>honesty, integrity, industry and moral character; and noted several
>incompatibilities, such as the use of offensive titles such as
>“Worshipful Master,” bloody oaths and obligations, the pagan and occult
>nature of many of the writings of past Masons, the Bible’s shared role
>among other items in Masonic temples, the doctrine of salvation by
>works, the doctrine of universalism (i.e. that all will be saved), and
>the refusal of most American Masonic Lodges to admit African Americans
>to membership.
>The report concluded with a strangely ambivalent statement reminiscent
>of the style of Sir Humphrey in Yes, Prime Minister: "In light of the
>fact that many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible
>with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, while others are
>compatible . . . we therefore recommend that consistent with our
>denomination’s deep convictions regarding the priesthood of the believer
>and the autonomy of the local church, membership in a Masonic Order be a
>matter of personal conscience" (“A Report on Freemasonry” by the Home
>Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, reproduced in
>Christian News 31 (21), 24 May 1993: 3).
Again read the orginal report by Dr. Leazer
>One of the ironies of this finding is that its faulty logic can be
>applied to Jehovah’s Witnesses, yet Southern Baptists do not allow
>participation and cooperation of their members with Witnesses “as a
>matter of personal conscience”!
>
>It seems to me that the otherwise stringently evangelical Southern
>Baptists have found it necessary to compromise their doctrine and
>witness when it comes to associations with Freemasonry. The lesson for
>Baptists in Australia is not to fall into the same trap when the issue
>is raised within our fellowships.
In other words as they do not agaree with the author there are other issues
sorry does not wash
>As I said at the beginning of this series of messages, if our churches
>were properly fulfilling our mission, many people would not need to have
>their felt needs met by cults and pseudo-Christian organisations. We
>have a biblical mandate to minister to the whole needs of people in our
>communities: spiritual, emotional, social and physical needs.
A little poisoning of the well here Masonry is nt a cult or does it make any
claim to being Christian as it is a secular fraturnity these do not apply.
>If you’re personally involved in Freemasonry, do some research and
>decide where your allegiance lies. If you have friends or family who
>are involved, share with them your reservations and beliefs, and pray
>for them.
Yes do
>If you’re approached by a Mason and encouraged to join, it pays to be
>prepared; ask some leading questions, and expect some serious and honest
>answers.
As we do not recruit unlikly but again do your research before you take the
athours words as fact which so many of them are not.
Snip
>--
>
>Shalom! Rowland Croucher (rowl...@mira.net)
Bordure.
Eugene Goldman.·.
wrote:
*[critiques wanted please...]
Ok.
*Understanding Freemasonry
If only you did.
*It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
*as Freemasonry. Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
*Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
*aprons!
And yet the FACT remains that the fraternity was formed in 1717 in London
England.
*The earliest historical records of the practice of Freemasonry date from
*London in 1717, with the first minutes of a Masonic meeting at 1723.
*Around this time James Anderson wrote his Constitutions, a revision of a
*14th century stonemason’s Christian guidebook. Through the 18th and
*19th centuries Lodges sprang up all over Britain and its colonies, as
*well as the United States.
And this was "difficult to determine"? Interesting.
*Freemasons progress through a series of degrees involving secret oaths
*and rituals.
So do Boy Scouts.
*All Masons are initiated into the “Blue Lodge,” consisting
*of three degrees.
And all Boy Scouts are initiated into the "Troop", consisting of six degrees.
*Upon completion of the third degree the candidate
*attains the rank of “Master Mason.”
And upon completion of the sixth degree the scout attains the rank of "Eagle
Scout".
*>From this point a Mason may pursue further degrees through one of two
*paths: the “York Rite” or the more popular “Scottish Rite.” There are
*also affiliated minor orders.
From this point a scout may persue further degrees through a variety of paths,
including Exploring, Venture Scouts and the Order of the Arrow.
*We’ll approach the subject of Freemasonry by examining three questions.
*Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a fraternal society? Is it
*compatible with Christianity? And what public statements have
*mainstream Christian denominations made regarding their members’
*involvement in Freemasonry?
* ** 1. Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a
*fraternal society? **
*
*The New Dictionary of Theology (Leicester: IVP, 1988) defines a religion
*as “belief in God or gods, together with the practical results of such a
*belief as expressed in worship, ritual, a particular view of the world
*and of the nature and destiny of man, and the way someone ought to live
*his daily life” (p. 575).
This would apply equally to both Masonry and Scouting.
*First, as to belief in God or gods, the first degree candidate is asked,
*“In whom do you put your trust?” and he answers, “In God.”
And a Scout vows to do his "duty to G-d".
*Second, regarding the expression of religious belief in ritual, worship,
*worldview and human destiny, the testimony is equally convincing. “Our
*lodges stand on holy ground,” says the First Degree Ritual, Tracing
*Board (p. 76), “because the first lodge was consecrated by three grand
*offerings thereon made, which met with Divine approbation (Abraham,
*David and Solomon). Those three did then, do now, and I trust ever
*will, render the ground of Freemasonry holy.”
Where did you get THIS fabrication? Who's opinion is this? These words are not
part of the ritual of ANY degree in this jurisdiction.
*Hall, in The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, states that “the mason must
*realise that his true initiation is a spiritual and not a physical
*ritual” (p. 34).
And, interestingly, I am told that Hall was NOT a Mason when he wrote this.
*In The Worshipful Master and What He Should Know (A. Lewis Publishers,
*1975), G. Blakey explains that “the hoodwink [ritual blindfold?]
*represents the darkness before birth, before education and spiritual
*enlightenment” (p. 32).
Uh huh. And a Congressman represents his constituents.
*As Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia reveals, Freemasons even have special
*funeral rites: “a religious service to commit the body of a deceased
*brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit
*back to the Great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight
*with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the
*religion of Freemasonry” (New York: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply
*Co., 1961) 512.
So does Scouting, the Military (THEY also do weddings!), and many other non
religion organizations.
*Third, do the religious beliefs of Freemasonry influence a member’s
*daily life?
What "religious beliefs? A belief in a Supreme Being? Or Brotherly Love,
Relief, Truth, Faith, Hope, Charity, Tolerance, Temprence, Fortitude, Prudence
and Justice? I guess you COULD call these "religious beliefs", but that would
be a streach.
*They do. In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
*a 24-inch gavel, symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
*compass to remind him that "perseverance is necessary to establish
*perfection, that the rude material can receive its fine polish from
*repeated efforts alone, and that nothing short of indefatigable exertion
*can induce the habit of virtue, enlighten the mind, and purify the soul"
*(First Degree Ritual, Working Tools, pp. 71-72).
Did you get this from the same source as your earlier "quote"? If so, whoever
sold that to you claiming it to be accurate ripped you off, big time. You
really should ask for your money back.
*Freemasonry involves a belief in an all-powerful deity,
Actually, it would be more correctr to say that Masonry *requires* a belief,
before an applicant may become a Mason. This is because the fraternity, exactly
like Scouting, and being a witness in a court of law, does not have any
teachings about the nature of that Being, but the Virtues Brotherly Love,
Relief, Truth, Faith, Hope, Charity, Tolerance, Temprence, Fortitude, Prudence
and Justice are predicated on such a belief.
*the practice of prayers,
Well, in that, like Congress, Scouting and Navy League, we open our meetings
with an Invocation and close them with a Benediction, this is correct. The
picture you paint, however, is decieving.
*pledges, oaths,
Yes, like serving as a witness in court, getting married (even in a civil
ceremony) taking public office, holding Military rank, Scouting, or practicing a
profession, we do.
*hymns,
Never heard one in Lodge or Troop. Utter fabrication.
*readings from sacred literature,
My freshman philosophy class read from "sacred literature" and so does the play
my daughter is in! You may have seen it, it has been on Broadway. Joseph and
the Technicolor Dreamcoat". Wonderful story, right from "sacred literature".
*a particular view of human destiny,
As does Scouting.
*and teachings on sin, salvation
Never heard any in Lodge or Troop. Another fabrication.
* and ethical action.
"Joseph", my philosophy course, Scouting, and most professional societies have
these, yes. The legal profession calls them "cannons", I believe.
*There is no doubt that Freemasonry is a religion.
Then there should be no doubt that, by THE EXACT SAME STANDARDS, Scouting is
also. The practice of a profession, serving in Government or Military service,
or as a witness in a court of law leave "little doubt", using your "logic".
This DESPITE the SOLID FACT that neither Masonry nor Scouting EVER Practice
sancerdotal functions, Teach Theology, Ordain Clergy, Define sin and salvation,
Perform sacrements, Publish or specify a Holy Book, Describe or define the
Diety.
You have made a most interesting conclusion, based on fraudulent and deceptive
data.
Due to the erronious nature of your primary assumptions, the remainder of your
volumnuous post has been snipped.
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
And in case I don't see ya' - Good Afternoon, Good Evening and Good Night!
Who said that?
Brother Gene .*.
http://www.blackmountainlodge.net
Every day spent practicing Brotherly Love, Relief, Truth, Faith, Hope, Charity, Tolerance, Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence and Justice is a GOOD day.
Eugene Goldman.·.
*I'm not a Mason, but I can't understand why these groups are so opposed to
*Masons.
*
*From what I understand is Masons search for the truth, while not condemning
*a particular religion.
And this is the first and foremost reason. The nature of these individuals'
beliefs are such that to feel valid, they MUST invalidate others.
*My relationship is with Jesus Christ. Different religious texts may all
*refer to the same God, but it is up to me to choose my path to salvation.
This is another major reason.
*If I am wrong in my perceptions of the Masons, then please clarify this for
*me.
No, you are right on the money.
Eugene Goldman.·.
*Most huh Lets see Bishop Carl Saunders Joseph Fort Newton, Norman Vncient
*Peale to name just a few.
Let me give you a couple of names of Masons you might recognise:
RELIGIOUS LEADERS: Bishop Carl J Sander (United Methodist Church), Rabbi
Seymour Atlas, Dr. James P. Wesberry (Former Exectuive director of the Southern
Baptist Publication Sunday), The Reverend George W. Truett (President of the
Southern Baptist Convention), The Reverend John A O'Brien, Ph.D. (Roman Catholic
Preist and professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame), Cardinal
Mariano Rampolla (Roman Catholic Cardinal), James C. Baker (Bishop, Methodist
Church, organized first Wesley Foundation in U.S.), Hosea Ballou (Founder,
Universalist Church), Robert E. B. Baylor (Baptist clergyman, founder of Baylor
University), Preston Bradley (founder of the Peoples Church), Father Francisco
Calvo (Catholic Priest who started Freemasonry in Costa Rica in 1865), Hugh I.
Evans (National head of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A.), Most Reverend Geoffrey
F. Fisher (former Archbishop of Canterbury), Eugene M. Frank (Methodist Bishop),
Reverend Dr. Norman Vincent Peale (Methodist Episcopal minister and author)
Titus Low (President of Methodist Council of Bishops) Dr. Martin Luther King,
Jesse Jackson (Operation P.U.S.H. and AME Baptist Church) and many others.
Mike Wells
Rowland C. Croucher wrote in message <363F4FCF...@mira.net>...
>[critiques wanted please...]
>
>Understanding Freemasonry
>
>6.30 pm, Sunday 9 August 1998
>
>It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
>as Freemasonry. Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
>Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
>aprons!
I thought that was a joke when I first heard it. However, that was the
belief of some of the romantics of early to mid 19th century. I'm not aware
of anyone who gives credence to that in the present.
The authors you reference gathered quotes supportive of their supposition
while ignoring others, and designed to prove a point regardless of the
facts. This type of "research" is biased, misleading, and profitable to the
author by its sensationalist nature.
For every quote provided, I might furnish a dozen which refutes the
previous. Why? Because Freemasonry has no central spokesman, no unified
stance, no one authority who speaks for all. It is just a member's opinion.
Sorry, big snip necessary. If you wish to discuss Masonry using original
material, or by inviting the author to post here, we will be glad to
accommodate. Let us proceed one point at a time, please.
>Shalom! Rowland Croucher (rowl...@mira.net)
>
> John Mark Ministries - resources for pastors/leaders
> (Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham Trading Post)
>WEBSITE (1600+ articles 1000+ links 7000+ hits a day)
> http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm
Mike Wells
Normal #673, A.F&A.M., Illinois
"Let the unskilful learn, and let the learned improve their recollection."
Chris
organization would violate my duties to Christ, and my Church. I think this qualifies as a religion according to the original post in this thread.
I have been approached by a friend who is a distributor for Amway. In as much as he felt I might be interested, he has brought me to a few meetings,
which are held monthly.
Here is what happened at all the meetings I attended.
The meeting was opened with a prayer, invocation, blessing, whatever you would like to call it. Then matters of business were discussed. At this time
people who had attained various levels were recognized, then there was an inspirational message shared with the group by distributors who had attained
one of the higher levels (diamond, double diamond etc.) Then at the close of the meeting yet another prayer (benediction if you like) and then the
meeting is over, refreshments are served, and people talk and introduce themselves to the new people there.
We were not instructed biblically, and none of the teachings of Christ were expounded, nor even referred to. There were people attending who were not of
the Christian Faith, and yet we all got along famously.
Indeed, the focus of the meeting was not any religion at all, but rather how to build a better business while helping people to realize their dreams.
Many times I heard the principles of helping others, brotherly love, charity and a host of other virtues similar to those of both Christian and Masonic
teachings. Many times the message was hope and love and personal improvement through belief in God. Yet no particular God was proposed. I assume that is
because Amway is not a religion, but a business, and therefore leaves matters of personal Salvation and religion to it's members to sort out for
themselves.
We were told ways to live our daily lives that would enable us to improve ourselves, our neighbours futures (through the sharing of the plan), and our
business, through the practice of the aforementioned virtues(interestingly I have heard many tapes from people involved in Amway and these messages are
consistent throughout).
I could go on and add something for virtually every aspect of Masonry that was addressed in the original post, but it would be a waste of bandwidth to
explain what was said about human destiny and a host of other topics covered by the original post.
Please tell me, is Amway a religion, or a commercial business venture?
Chris
Eugene Goldman.·.
*Honestly I do not know much about this whole thread, but let me relate my experience with something similar. Somebody please tell me if joining this
*organization would violate my duties to Christ, and my Church. I think this qualifies as a religion according to the original post in this thread.
As YOU are the one who knows what those duties are, YOU must be the one to
determine if something would or would not violate them. <s>
*I have been approached by a friend who is a distributor for Amway. In as much as he felt I might be interested, he has brought me to a few meetings,
*which are held monthly.
Amway? Those satanic devil worshipers? <LOL>
*Here is what happened at all the meetings I attended.
*
*The meeting was opened with a prayer, invocation, blessing, whatever you would like to call it. Then matters of business were discussed. At this time
*people who had attained various levels were recognized, then there was an inspirational message shared with the group by distributors who had attained
*one of the higher levels (diamond, double diamond etc.) Then at the close of the meeting yet another prayer (benediction if you like) and then the
*meeting is over, refreshments are served, and people talk and introduce themselves to the new people there.
Oh boy! You are in trouble now! Praying with nonChristians? Yoking yourself
with unbelievers? Inspirational messages? I see trouble in River City. <LOL>
*We were not instructed biblically, and none of the teachings of Christ were expounded, nor even referred to. There were people attending who were not of
*the Christian Faith, and yet we all got along famously.
No Jesus? They MUST be satanists! I have been told, by VERY reputable sources
(sic) that doing anything without Jesus is satanic!
*Indeed, the focus of the meeting was not any religion at all, but rather how to build a better business while helping people to realize their dreams.
*Many times I heard the principles of helping others, brotherly love, charity and a host of other virtues similar to those of both Christian and Masonic
*teachings. Many times the message was hope and love and personal improvement through belief in God. Yet no particular God was proposed. I assume that is
*because Amway is not a religion, but a business, and therefore leaves matters of personal Salvation and religion to it's members to sort out for
*themselves.
This is the devil's work, for sure! Get out! Get out while you have the
presence of mind to withstand their brainwashing! <LOL>
*We were told ways to live our daily lives that would enable us to improve ourselves, our neighbours futures (through the sharing of the plan), and our
*business, through the practice of the aforementioned virtues(interestingly I have heard many tapes from people involved in Amway and these messages are
*consistent throughout).
They have their own Plan? Surely, by now, you have recognised the deamon's work
in this. <LOL>
*I could go on and add something for virtually every aspect of Masonry that was addressed in the original post, but it would be a waste of bandwidth to
*explain what was said about human destiny and a host of other topics covered by the original post.
*
*Please tell me, is Amway a religion, or a commercial business venture?
You opened the meeting with a nonChristian prayer, listened to inspirational
speaches that omitted the name of Jesus, and learned of a Plan that did not
include eternal salvation. Obviously, according to what I have been told by the
antis (who would NEVER try to be deceptive, would they? <LOL>) this is a
religion, and the complete absence of Jesus means it is an unChristian religion!
Get out, I beseach you! Before it is too late.
Jim Bennie
<p...@bozzie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Anyway, I can hardly imagine Adam and Eve as Freemasons. For one thing,
> there were insufficient people around at the time to hold a Lodge; for
> another, they'd have suffered from a near-total dearth of candidates...
But at least they could directly do something about the problem :)
> >> In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives a 24-inch gavel,
> >
> >A 24-inch gavel?
Only in Texas. EVERYTHING's big down there! :)
Jim Bennie
PM, Plantagenet No. 65 (defunct)
PM, Lodge Southern Cross No. 44, Vancouver BC
RedRopers
You opened the meeting with a nonChristian prayer, listened to inspirational
speaches that omitted the name of Jesus, and learned of a Plan that did not
include eternal salvation. Obviously, according to what I have been told by
the antis (who would NEVER try to be deceptive, would they? <LOL>) this is a
religion, and the complete absence of Jesus means it is an unChristian
religion!Get out, I beseach you! Before it is too late.
Gene,
I swear you're nuts!!!! ;)
Jana
RedRopers
Only in Texas. EVERYTHING's big down there! :)
Uh huh! Men have been telling women that for years. We're not impressed. ;)
Jana
Chris
of our choice) followed by announcements and inspirational messages.
We had rituals known as graduations in which degrees were bestowed upon us after seeking the blessing of God.
(I am informed that this is not the case in the US but here in Canada it is)
Is this too a satanic cult?
"Eugene Goldman.·." wrote:
> *I could go on and add something for virtually every aspect of Masonry that was addressed in the original post, but it would be a waste of bandwidth to
> *explain what was said about human destiny and a host of other topics covered by the original post.
> *
> *Please tell me, is Amway a religion, or a commercial business venture?
>
> You opened the meeting with a nonChristian prayer, listened to inspirational
> speaches that omitted the name of Jesus, and learned of a Plan that did not
> include eternal salvation. Obviously, according to what I have been told by the
> antis (who would NEVER try to be deceptive, would they? <LOL>) this is a
> religion, and the complete absence of Jesus means it is an unChristian religion!
> Get out, I beseach you! Before it is too late.
>
Eugene Goldman.·.
*From: hypn...@pacbell.net (Eugene Goldman.·.)
*
*You opened the meeting with a nonChristian prayer, listened to inspirational
*speaches that omitted the name of Jesus, and learned of a Plan that did not
*include eternal salvation. Obviously, according to what I have been told by
*the antis (who would NEVER try to be deceptive, would they? <LOL>) this is a
*religion, and the complete absence of Jesus means it is an unChristian
*religion!Get out, I beseach you! Before it is too late.
*
*Gene,
*
*I swear you're nuts!!!! ;)
NO! I have been listening to the antis, and reading what is on their web pages.
All of these self-proclaimed experts on Christianity (with one exception) say
the same thing about organizations like Chris described. If they are to be
believed, his salvation is in question by his being yoked to such as he
describes.
Besides, ever since they stopped selling their shoe polish, they have been just
another MLM anyway.
<s>
Eugene Goldman.·.
*I am also reminded of elementary and high school, wherein we opened each day with a generic prayer (later replaced by a minutes silent reflection on the God
*of our choice) followed by announcements and inspirational messages.
*
*We had rituals known as graduations in which degrees were bestowed upon us after seeking the blessing of God.
*
*(I am informed that this is not the case in the US but here in Canada it is)
*
*Is this too a satanic cult?
Of course!
When you apply the test the antis use to other activities and organizations, it
yields some interesting results.
It works like this:
Anti - "Masonry uses the Holy Bible in it's ceremonies, and does not require an
affermation of Jesus as one's personal savior. Therefore it is [insert favorite
judgement here]."
Now, apply this to holding public office, or serving as a witness or jurror in a
court of law.
Now you try one. It's fun!
Jack Hickey
<p...@bozzie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Anyway, I can hardly imagine Adam and Eve as Freemasons. For one thing,
>there were insufficient people around at the time to hold a Lodge; for
>another, they'd have suffered from a near-total dearth of candidates...
Adam and Eve produced sons. When they got older, those sons
got married. Ever wonder whom it was they got married TO?
I imagine they could have produced "candidates" in much the same
manner that they produced brides for their sons.
It sounds unbearable kinky to me. I have to approve.
>>> In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives a 24-inch gavel,
>>A 24-inch gavel?
>It is only with difficulty that I've stopped laughing from the image
>that popped into my mind of a warden needing both hands to raise the
>gavel before he could give the knocks...
My Masonic district (23rd Brookfield) awards a "traveling hiram" to
the lodge which, each month, has the best (or anyway, the MOST)
representation at the Sixth Forum classes and dinners each month.
This traveling gavel is about four feet tall, with a head the size of
a (small) beer keg, and weighs about forty pounds. I've yet to hear
of anyone actually trying to use it to give the knocks, but I'd pay
for the privilege of seeing it done.
>>> symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>>>compass
>>Nope. Wrong. Not correct in ANY particular. Congratulations.
>>Absolutely wrong.
>And he also omitted the gold watch, didn't he? o-)
Not to mention the solid-silver saddle and bridle for the goat.
>
>>>Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
>>>acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
>>>names.
>>Correct. How many different gods do YOU think we should be
>>acknowledging?
>Perhaps he would insist on Jews being converted to Christianity -- and
>by force, if necessary?
I don't think there's a whole lot of "perhaps" about it, Paul.
Difficult it is for me to understand, however, how they would intend
to go about restoring those foreskins.
>>Freemasonry has not been free of the stain of racism, but we're
>>getting better. I can't say the same about the hateful
>>Evangelical "Christian" churches.
>Some of those putatively "Christian" churches do make one wonder...
<apology>
It was pointed out to me in private e-mail, by a Brother here who
belongs to an Evangelical Church, those I am guilty of gross
over-generalization.
I acknowledge and I rejoice that there are good and kind and decent
people to be found everywhere, including within those Evangelical
denominations, and I apologize to any who were offended by my
characterization of *all* Evangelicals as "hateful."
In mitigation, I submit that I've just returned from vacation and I'm
not thrilled to be back, and I was momentarily overcome by frustration
at these people who arrogate to themselves the right to preach where
it's not needed nor wanted. I regretted that characterization almost
immediately, but I am not able to cancel messages for some reason, so
I could not call it back.
</apology>
Paul C. Dickie
>>a Plan that did not include eternal salvation. Obviously, according
>>to what I have been told by the antis (who would NEVER try to be
>>deceptive, would they? <LOL>) this is a religion, and the complete
>>absence of Jesus means it is an unChristian religion! Get out, I
>>beseach you! Before it is too late.
>I swear you're nuts!!!! ;)
Indeed. Look at the way he spelled "beseech"...o-)
--
< Paul >
Mike Restivo
<<snipped for context>>
> <apology>
>
> It was pointed out to me in private e-mail, by a Brother here who
> belongs to an Evangelical Church, those I am guilty of gross
> over-generalization.
>
> I acknowledge and I rejoice that there are good and kind and decent
> people to be found everywhere, including within those Evangelical
> denominations, and I apologize to any who were offended by my
> characterization of *all* Evangelicals as "hateful."
>
> In mitigation, I submit that I've just returned from vacation and I'm
> not thrilled to be back, and I was momentarily overcome by frustration
> at these people who arrogate to themselves the right to preach where
> it's not needed nor wanted. I regretted that characterization almost
> immediately, but I am not able to cancel messages for some reason, so
> I could not call it back.
>
> </apology>
>
> Jack Hickey
> Senior Deacon
> Isaiah Thomas Lodge
> Worcester MA
One's moral integrity is exemplified not by canceling an intemperate
message before anyone read it; that would be an example of prudence, but
by admitting to one's error and supplying the corrective. Amidst the
perpetual flame wars in this place, apologies, and the moral leadership
they can exemplify, are all too rare.
† Mike Restivo
Chris
Well that was kinda my point. It is a tad ridiculous to apply these conditions to Masonry, but nothing else. I thought I would add another analogy to illuminate
this discrepancy.
Just another MLM LOL I take it you liked the polish hehehe
Chris
"Eugene Goldman.·." wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 19:46:04 GMT, Chris <net.j...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> *I am also reminded of elementary and high school, wherein we opened each day with a generic prayer (later replaced by a minutes silent reflection on the God
> *of our choice) followed by announcements and inspirational messages.
> *
> *We had rituals known as graduations in which degrees were bestowed upon us after seeking the blessing of God.
> *
> *(I am informed that this is not the case in the US but here in Canada it is)
> *
> *Is this too a satanic cult?
>
> Of course!
>
> When you apply the test the antis use to other activities and organizations, it
> yields some interesting results.
>
> It works like this:
> Anti - "Masonry uses the Holy Bible in it's ceremonies, and does not require an
> affermation of Jesus as one's personal savior. Therefore it is [insert favorite
> judgement here]."
>
> Now, apply this to holding public office, or serving as a witness or jurror in a
> court of law.
>
> Now you try one. It's fun!
>
RedRopers
From: "Paul C. Dickie" <p...@bozzie.demon.co.uk>
Paul,
Personally, I could care less about his spelling. It's close enough, I love
Gene to death, he always comes up wtih something to make me laugh when I"m down
in the dumps.
As far as I'm concerned he's one in a million.
Jana
Eugene Goldman.·.
wrote:
*Indeed. Look at the way he spelled "beseech"...o-)
It DOESN'T start with a "b"?
Sorry. <s>
Eugene Goldman.·.
*ROFL
*
*Well that was kinda my point. It is a tad ridiculous to apply these conditions to Masonry, but nothing else. I thought I would add another analogy to illuminate
*this discrepancy.
Just get out, before they brainwash you into their luciferian conspiracy.
*Just another MLM LOL I take it you liked the polish hehehe
The best around, bar none.
Eugene Goldman.·.
wrote:
*Thirdly, quoting Albert Pike when referring to Craft Freemasonry in my
*Jurisdiction is about as relevant as referring to the US Declaration of
*Independance when reading the NSW Liquor Licencing Act. It may be
*instructive, but any arguments based on the comparison need careful
*evaluation, and may not be as useful as first thought. Besides, I was 20
*years a Mason before I had _heard_ of "Morals
*& Dogma", I still haven't read it, and no-one from this jurisdiction has
*ever mentioned the book in an official capacity.
<LOL>
I love your allogory! Yes, even quoting Pike as relavent to Craft Masonry in
American jurisdictions would be as relavent as quoting Arestotle (sp) on matters
pertaining to the Greek Orthodox Church. Of the millions of American Masons,
perhaps hundreds have read M&D. I have read parts, and it seems to be an
interresting commentary on the prevailing religious philosophies of the time.
Certainly not authoritative on the meanings behind ANY of the AASR work, and as
he was NEVER a Grand Master of ANY Masonic jurisdiction, hardly authoritative on
anything related to Craft Masonry. No one in any American jurisdiction I know
of has ever mentioned it in any official capacity, either.
Ross Ebeling
Firstly, in responding to this, I am speaking as a private individual, and
any remarks are my own opinion. Whilst I sincerely believe those are not at
variance with any established Masonic Jurisdiction in NSW, I do not and
cannot speak for the UGL NSW, the UGCofM&RAM NSW, or any other order I am a
member of.
Secondly, let me say that as the original posting originated in NSW, let me
respond as a NSW freemason. That way we can talk apples and apples, not
pears and pomegranites. I have no problem with someone in NSW using American
writings to condemn American freemasonry - my Stateside Brethren are quite
capable of looking after themselves, and prove it regularly.
Thirdly, quoting Albert Pike when referring to Craft Freemasonry in my
Jurisdiction is about as relevant as referring to the US Declaration of
Independance when reading the NSW Liquor Licencing Act. It may be
instructive, but any arguments based on the comparison need careful
evaluation, and may not be as useful as first thought. Besides, I was 20
years a Mason before I had _heard_ of "Morals
& Dogma", I still haven't read it, and no-one from this jurisdiction has
ever mentioned the book in an official capacity.
Finally, I am responding to the "call for comments" issued. I will not enter
into a protracted argument about what is good or bad, right or wrong etc
etc. In spite of any other activity I have been making, this time I will be
as professional as possible.
I shall include my comments in the body of the main text, quoted in full
below.
Rowland C. Croucher wrote in message <363F4FCF...@mira.net>...
>[critiques wanted please...]
>
>Understanding Freemasonry
>
>6.30 pm, Sunday 9 August 1998
>
>It’s difficult to determine the origins of the Masonic Lodge, also known
>as Freemasonry. Some Masons claim that Adam and Eve were the first
>Masons, and that the fig leaves they wore were the society’s first
>aprons!
>
>The earliest historical records of the practice of Freemasonry date from
>London in 1717, with the first minutes of a Masonic meeting at 1723.
>Around this time James Anderson wrote his Constitutions, a revision of a
>14th century stonemason’s Christian guidebook. Through the 18th and
<snipped>
>
>>From this point a Mason may pursue further degrees through one of two
>paths: the “York Rite” or the more popular “Scottish Rite.” There are
>also affiliated minor orders.
From a purely critical standpoint, I will ask you to delete the "more
popular" from the above. I don't believe it's true in NSW - they're about
equal.
>
>We’ll approach the subject of Freemasonry by examining three questions.
>Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a fraternal society? Is it
>compatible with Christianity? And what public statements have
>mainstream Christian denominations made regarding their members’
>involvement in Freemasonry?
>
> ** 1. Is Freemasonry a religion or merely a
>fraternal society? **
>
<snipped>
>If it is a religion, then Christian Freemasons need to explain why they
>practice another religion, no matter how compatible it is with Christian
>faith.
>
>First, as to belief in God or gods, the first degree candidate is asked,
>“In whom do you put your trust?” and he answers, “In God.”
Which is merely to indicate the existence of a strong faith. The quote is
incorrect, as well.
>
>According to Manly Hall, a 33rd degree Mason, the brothers should “enter
>the temple (i.e. Lodge) in reverence, for it is in truth the dwelling
>place of a Great Spirit, the Spirit of Masonry” (The Lost Keys of
>Freemasonry (Richmond: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply Co., 1976)
>100).
I can't talk about the 33rd Degree, and neither can the Author. However,
poetic licence is surely not blasphemous. Neither is it indicative of a
religious adoration.
>
>Second, regarding the expression of religious belief in ritual, worship,
>worldview and human destiny, the testimony is equally convincing. “Our
>lodges stand on holy ground,” says the First Degree Ritual, Tracing
>Board (p. 76), “because the first lodge was consecrated by three grand
>offerings thereon made, which met with Divine approbation (Abraham,
>David and Solomon). Those three did then, do now, and I trust ever
>will, render the ground of Freemasonry holy.”
>
>Hall, in The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, states that “the mason must
>realise that his true initiation is a spiritual and not a physical
>ritual” (p. 34).
I do not understand why the emphasis on a candidate's sprirtual growth is
significant other than to encourage his own development. If the Author is
not arguing from a pre-concieved point, then this is surely harmless - to
encourage someone's spritual development is a good thing, I would have
thought. If the Author _is_ arguing from the position that Masonry is bad,
then nothing I say will alter it, anyway.
>
>In The Worshipful Master and What He Should Know (A. Lewis Publishers,
>1975), G. Blakey explains that “the hoodwink [ritual blindfold?]
>represents the darkness before birth, before education and spiritual
>enlightenment” (p. 32).
Is this point relevant?
>
>As Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia reveals, Freemasons even have special
>funeral rites: “a religious service to commit the body of a deceased
>brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit
>back to the Great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight
>with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the
>religion of Freemasonry” (New York: Macoy Publishing & Masonic Supply
>Co., 1961) 512.
The RSL also has its own particular funeral service. It is something we do
not hide from the bereaved, and I have already promised my mother that I
will perform that service for Dad when the time comes. I hope someone will
do that favour for me also. However, I am concerned about the quote, and
would dispute it. I do not think the UGLNSW would support such a document.
>
>Third, do the religious beliefs of Freemasonry influence a member’s
>daily life? They do. In the first degree ritual, a candidate receives
>a 24-inch gavel, symbolising the extent and cost of his work, and a
>compass to remind him that "perseverance is necessary to establish
>perfection, that the rude material can receive its fine polish from
>repeated efforts alone, and that nothing short of indefatigable exertion
>can induce the habit of virtue, enlighten the mind, and purify the soul"
>(First Degree Ritual, Working Tools, pp. 71-72).
The quote is hopelessly muddled, but for obvious reasons I am not about to
correct it. Besides, we have already agreed to a NSW viewpoint. In that
event, I will restrict my response to saying that the Author is surely not
reprimanding people from encouraging others to strive continually in
studying and understanding their own faith? If it is not right for the Craft
to encourage perseverence in understanding God's Word, then surely the words
of the original Papal Bull of Leo IX are correct in their entirety, and so
we must assume that state schools are an abomination as well.
>
>A Freemason’s daily life is also influenced by the spiritual power of
>the first three degrees: "There he stands (outside) our portals, on the
>threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and
>ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered only with
>the pollutions of the outer and profane world, he comes inquiringly to
>our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil
>which conceals divine truth from his uninitiated sight" (A. Mackey, A
>Manual of the Lodge (New York: Charles Merrill, 1870) 20).
I do not recognise the quote at all. Speaking as a NSW mason, I question the
relevance. It is not part of _our_ ritual, but quotes from 1870 are fraught
with danger.....I am sure I could come up with some really embarassing ones
about Australian Aborigines that various Churches would not like trotted out
in 1998. Let us read the writers of 120 years ago with sensitivity and
common sense, or else we're all in trouble.
>
>The Masonic Encyclopedia admits that, like Christianity, Freemasonry is
>also a religion, and that “the difference between a Lodge and a church
>is one of degree and not of kind” (Coil, Masonic Encyclopedia, p. 512;
>cf Lyndon Ellis, Blinded By the Lie, p. 42).
I do not think Coil is in favour under _this_ Jurisdiction. This definition
is incorrect.
>
>Freemasonry involves a belief in an all-powerful deity, the practice of
>prayers, pledges, oaths, hymns, readings from sacred literature, a
>particular view of human destiny, and teachings on sin, salvation and
>ethical action.
Is this so wrong? Scouts take obligations, sing hymns and say prayers.
Witnesses and Juries in Law Courts are called on to take oaths. Public
Officials are sworn in on the Bible. The main teachings of Freemasonry are
to encourage its members to study their own faith, and gain salvation as
_they_ see it. The language is gauged carefully so that any particpant will
receive the same message - read _your_ Holy Book, pray to _your_ Creator, be
a good man according to _your_ faith. Is this bad in these troubled times,
when congregations are shrinking and kids spend more time watching
television than reading anything, let alone the Bible?
>
>There is no doubt that Freemasonry is a religion. The question is: why
This appears to be a circular argument. It is erroneous logic, as the Author
has not actually _proven_ anything.
>do Christians who are also Freemasons practise a rival religion? Is it
>really another religion? Is Freemasonry incompatible with Christian
>faith?
Just briefly, under the Scottish Constitution, the 18th Deg (Scottish Rite)
requires a belief in the trinity. I have heard of at least one Moslem who
responded to that with 'Jesus? I don't have a problem with Jesus!' and
became a very happy member.
>
>
> ** 2. Is Freemasonry compatible with Christianity? **
>
>Many Christians who are Freemasons have researched neither its teachings
>nor its practices. What does Freemasonry teach about major Christian
>doctrines?
>
>Freemasonry regards sacred books of other religions, such as the Koran,
>as equivalent to the Bible; and it expresses something less than
>commitment to the Bible itself: “the Bible, with all the allegories it
>contains, expresses, in an incomplete manner only, the religious science
>of the Hebrews” (A. Pike, Morals and Dogma (Charlestown: Southern
>Jurisdiction of the US, Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree, 1958) 744).
Once again, I do not believe Pike is appropriate here. However, many, many
people have started out with the same viewpoint. I do not.
>
>Although when he wrote to the churches of Galatia, Paul did not have
>Freemasonry in mind, his words are pertinent to our present subject: "I
>am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you
>by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is
>really no gospel at all . . . If anybody is preaching to you a gospel
>other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned"!
>(Galatians 1:6-7a, 9b; cf 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
This is only appropriate after the Author's first point is accepted as
proven. Otherwise, it is meaningless.
>
>Belief in God is essential to Freemasonry, but God is understood as the
>“Great Architect of the Universe,” the “All-Seeing Eye,” or the “Great
>Spirit.” As Ellis says, “Freemasonry doesn’t teach its members to have
>a relationship with Jesus, or with the Holy Spirit . . . But the Father
>of Freemasonry is absent, silent, violent, non-expressive, partial,
>prejudiced, and a perfectionist” (p. 160).
Freemasonry most definitely _does_ teach its Christian members to have a
relationship with Jesus. Who is Ellis, anyway. Is he important to this
argument. Is he an accepted authority outside Queensland? Is he a member of
One Nation?
>
>Still more significant, Freemasons believe that different religions
>acknowledge the same God, even if their members address him by different
>names. The Masonic Quarterly Bulletin of July 1915, for example, stated
>that Freemasonry “invites to its altar men of all faiths, knowing that,
>if they use different names for ‘the Nameless One of a hundred names,’
>they are praying to the one God and Father of all” (p. 17).
The Fatherhood of GOD and the Brotherhood of MAN. If this is evil, then I am
guilty as charged. However, let us respond honestly to the quote. I believe
that God the Father is the same to Christians, Moslems and Jews - the God of
Abraham and Isaac. Got a problem with that? The rest of the world doesn't.
>
>Contrast this to the explicit words of the first Commandment: “I am the
>Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
>You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2-3; cf Deuteronomy
>6:4; Matthew 4:10).
This is significant to those who have a belief in the God of Abraham and
Isaac. It is not relevant to Jains, Hindus, Native Americans, Kooris, etc
etc etc, nor should it be. Live and let live.
>
>Regarding Jesus Christ, Freemasons emphasise his ethical teaching but
>marginalise or ignore his deity, his saving work, and his participation
>in the trinity of persons who form the one God of Christianity. They
>also place Jesus on a par with other great religious leaders:
>"[Freemasonry] reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses,
>the Lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of
>Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, great teachers of morality, and
>eminent reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the Order to
>assign to each such higher and even divine character as his creed and
>truth require" (Pike, Morals and Dogma, 525).
Here we go again - Albert Pike!! Well, what can I say. If you think of
Freemasonry as a Philosophy or a peculiar system of morality veiled in
allegory, then you don't have a problem with any of the great religious
leaders, and find value in all their works. If you think of Freemasonry as a
Religion, you're capable of straining at gnats and swallowing camels, and
won't accept anything I say anyway.
>
>The New Testament writers were unanimous in their affirmation that Jesus
>Christ was and is unique, and that his mission was equally unique, and
>that he was quite unlike other religious teachers. It is Jesus alone
>who died and rose again; it is Jesus alone of whom Paul declared: "God
>exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above
>every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
>and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus
>Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
This is only relevant if it is proved that Freemasonry is an alternate
Christian Church. I don't think it is.
>
>In contrast to evangelical Christianity, Freemasonry denies the
>doctrines of original sin and human depravity. For example, in Carl
>Claudy’s Little Masonic Library (vol. 4; 1946: 51), we’re told that "The
>perfection is already within. All that is required is to remove the
>roughness and the excrescences [i.e. abnormal growth], ‘divesting our
>hearts and consciences of all devices and superfluities of life’ to show
>forth the perfect man and Mason within. Thus the gavel becomes also the
>symbol of personal power."
The Ritual assumes that you already have a belief in a Creator and the
associated doctrine. I think this argument is really getting down towards
infant baptism. If you have been accepted into a congregation as a child,
then you only need be vigilant not to backslide and turn away from God. I
won't delve further - "dippers vs dunkers" is a sad old tale anyway, and one
we are all better without reviving.
>
>Notice the emphasis on personal betterment and working toward
>perfection, which is said to be innate and within our grasp. The Bible
>teaches that none of us is righteous; in fact, we are slaves to sin
>until we ask Jesus to free us and forgive us (see Romans 3:23; 6:22-23;
>John 8:31-36). Likewise, John says: "If we claim to be without sin we
>deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins,
>he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all
>unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8-9).
I quote this from the 1992 "Articles of Religion of theMethodist Church"
"Article X--Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after
justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's
judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring
out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be
as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit."
Enough said. The author will either accept that as it stands, or (as I have
sadly found out with colleagues of other Christian sects) reject it entirely
as vain and
false.
>
>If Freemasonry adopts the view of secular humanism in relation to our
>sins, neither does it offer any clear plan for human salvation. All it
>really offers is a vague allusion in the Masonic funeral service “to a
>certain ‘pass’ whereby we may obtain entrance into the Grand Lodge above
>. . . (and) immortality. We are told that this pass is the pass of a
>pure and blameless life” (Ball, The Builder, 1:287). Contrast this with
>Romans 1:16-17; John 14:1-6).
It is not the part of freemasonry to offer human salvation, merely to direct
its members to seek it for themselves, and to offer some allegories alluding
to useful attributes a man can cultivate, such as Charity and Industry.
>
>Freemasonry also shares commonalities with witchcraft and the occult.
>In his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, A. Mackey reveals that “much light,
>it must be confessed, is thrown on many of the mystical names in the
>higher degrees by these dogmas of magic; and hence magic furnishes a
>curious and interesting study for the Freemason” (Philadelphia: McClure,
>1924: 459).
>
>Some occult rituals and practices adopted by Freemasonry - and carrying
>with them their occult symbolism - include the twelve star signs on the
>roof of a Masonic Lodge; the serpent eating its tail; circumambulation;
>the inverted five-pointed star; the equilateral triangle and other
>geometric shapes; the point within a circle; the speaking of mantras and
>of sacred words not mentioned in the Bible; the east-west alignment of
>Masonic Lodges; the three basic degrees of initiation; and the practice
>of striking a blindfolded initiate on the head before giving him new
>light (see also J.F. Newton, ‘The degrees of Masonry,’ Little Masonic
>Library (vol. 4; 1946: 171-252)).
This is about as meaningful as accusing Catholics of idolatry. Take enough
examples out of context, and garble them, and you can prove anything you
like. No, it is not MAGIC we do. The rituals are ALLEGORY. The author might
just as well rail against a 13th century morality play.
>
>The Bible forbids believers to be involved in any form of witchcraft or
>occultism (see Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Exodus 7-8; Leviticus 19:31; 1
>Samuel 28).
>
>Many evangelical Christians also see conflicts between Freemasonry and
>biblical teaching in the areas of the taking of secret oaths and the
>practice of racism among Freemasons.
Only the ones who won't take an oath to tell the "truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help me God". What do these guys do in court? Did
the Honourable the Reverend Fred Nile take an Oath of Obligation when he
accepted his Seat in Parliament?
>
> ** 3. What public statements have mainstream Christian
> denominations made **
>regarding their members’ involvement in Freemasonry?
>
>Interestingly, the only avowedly Christian tradition that is not
>permitted to participate in Freemasonry, so far as I know, is
>Mormonism, many of whose rituals bear strong similarity to those
>practiced in Masonic Lodges.
Not true. We'll accept anyone who believes in a Creator.
>
>On the other hand, most Christian churches forbid members to be involved
>in Masonic Lodges. The Roman Catholic church has long opposed
>Freemasonry. Again, so far as I know, no Christian denomination in the
>world that has undertaken a serious investigation of Freemasonry this
>century has subsequently affirmed the involvement of Christians in the
>Lodge.
>
>The Lutheran Church of Australia has stated that “all organisations,
>whether secret and oath-bound or open, which are either avowedly
>religious, or practise the forms of religion, without confessing as a
>matter of principle the Triune God and Jesus Christ as the Son of God
>come in the flesh and our Saviour from sin . . . are anti-Christian”
>(Doctrinal Statements and Theological Opinions, 1956).
The Lutheran Church holds this about many organisations. I believe the
definition quoted would include Scouts.
>
>The Baptist Union of Scotland concluded that “total obedience to Christ
<snipped for space>
>The Presbyterian Church of Queensland noted that “Freemasonry
>transgresses the first three Commandments by its use of titles and
>attributes of God not revealed in Scripture” (The Lodge and
>Presbyterianism, 1987: 20)).
>
>Its Victorian counterpart went further in its 1997 Assembly Minutes:
>“[We] declare Freemasonry to be totally incompatible with Christianity
>and therefore sinful . . . [We] request all ministers and elders to act
>pastorally in the church in a manner appropriate to their situation for
>the help and deliverance of Freemasons.”
Curiously, the Presbyterian Church of Scotland gave a very cautiously worded
statement similar to that quoted from the Southern Baptists below.
>
>Similar statements have been made by the Wesleyan Methodist Church of
>Australia, the Salvation Army (both in Australia and at its 1991
>International Leaders’ Conference), and by the Anglican Diocese of
>Sydney.
The Uniting Church is a worry here. 50 years ago, the Methodist Knights were
well supported, and a Lodge was formed from its members, Lodge Excalibur.
That lodge spawned two 18th Deg Chapters, John Welsey and Victor Blight.
These guys are Real Methodists, and I have the greatest affection for them.
It would be a great shame if the Uniting Church turned its back on these
true and devout Christians all of a sudden. However, since the current Grand
Master of NSW is an ordained and highly respected Uniting Church Minister,
it is unlikely that there is too much animosity involved.
It is interesting to note that the Anglican Church "discovered" how bad
freemasonry was after the death of King George VI.
>
>In the face of such united opposition by Christian denominations to
>their members’ involvement in Freemasonry, and in the face of the fact
>that Christianity is incompatible with Freemasonry on biblical and
>theological grounds, it is surprising that - apparently - no Baptist
>Union in Australia has made a public declaration on the issue one way or
>the other.
I still do not see how "united" the opposition is. It also appears to come
and go as fashion dictates - almost like female ordination!!
>
>One thing is certain: Baptist churches in Australia are not exempt from
>the influence of Freemasonry, and many Australian Baptist churches have
>members who are also Freemasons.
The author still has not established whether this is actually bad. Perhaps
the breath of tolerance a mason brings is a good thing. It may even help to
prevent recurrences like Kosovo if more people accepted other faiths as
valid to their adherents. In fact, I believe this is fundamental to the
Muslim faith ".......The Christian and the Jew shall not fear to live among
ye" or something like that.
>
>In the United States, a resolution at the Southern Baptist Convention in
>the mid-1980s questioned the compatibility of Freemasonry with the
>denomination’s doctrinal statements. Many Southern Baptist ministers
>and laypeople were practising Freemasons, and the resolution caused
>quite a stir.
>
>The Convention directed the Home Mission Board to study the issue, but
>the Board side-stepped the issue, claiming that Freemasonry did not fall
>within the scope of its responsibilities since the Board’s own
>Interfaith Witness Department did not recognise Freemasonry as a
>religion!
I should think this would have settled the issue. Mind you, Uniting Church
Synods have always been somewhat independant....
>
>Eventually, in 1992, the Southern Baptist Convention formally directed
>the Interfaith Witness Department itself to study the compatibility of
>Southern Baptist and Masonic doctrine.
>
<snipped>
>among other items in Masonic temples, the doctrine of salvation by
>works, the doctrine of universalism (i.e. that all will be saved), and
>the refusal of most American Masonic Lodges to admit African Americans
>to membership.
There is quite a substantial question as to the truth of that phrase
concerning African Americans in the US. I do not believe it is true at all,
and there are many correspondents in this ng who would also dispute it. On
the other hand, the UGL NSW is quite justifiably proud of our Koori
Brethren.
>
>The report concluded with a strangely ambivalent statement reminiscent
>of the style of Sir Humphrey in Yes, Prime Minister: "In light of the
>fact that many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible
>with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, while others are
>compatible . . . we therefore recommend that consistent with our
>denomination’s deep convictions regarding the priesthood of the believer
>and the autonomy of the local church, membership in a Masonic Order be a
>matter of personal conscience" (“A Report on Freemasonry” by the Home
>Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, reproduced in
>Christian News 31 (21), 24 May 1993: 3).
Unfortunately, this phrase really sounds as if the Author is willing to
discount everything that disagrees with him. If I have leave to discount all
that disproves my argument, and accept unchallenged all that proves my
argument, then I can prove anything and the World is mine!
>
>One of the ironies of this finding is that its faulty logic can be
>applied to Jehovah’s Witnesses, yet Southern Baptists do not allow
>participation and cooperation of their members with Witnesses “as a
>matter of personal conscience”!
Perhaps if the Author would refer to "The Advanced Bonewits' Cult Danger
Evaluation Frame 2.0 (Copyright (c) 1979, 1996 c.e., Isaac Bonewits)" and
honestly apply it, then the US Baptist community's concern with the
Jehovah's Witnesses may be better understood.
>
>It seems to me that the otherwise stringently evangelical Southern
>Baptists have found it necessary to compromise their doctrine and
>witness when it comes to associations with Freemasonry. The lesson for
>Baptists in Australia is not to fall into the same trap when the issue
>is raised within our fellowships.
This paragraph is quite at variance with the phrase above " in the face of
such united opposition...." Perhaps in fact, nothing has been compromised
for the reasons I have outlined above.
It is however instructive to note that the Author is quite prepared to ally
himself with various doctrines that support his viewpoint, and yet condemn a
very large portion of the international community as "tainted". Perhaps the
larger community may be correct?
>
>As I said at the beginning of this series of messages, if our churches
>were properly fulfilling our mission, many people would not need to have
<snipped>
>Copyright © 1998 Rod Benson. All rights reserved. Sermon 180 presented
>at Blakehurst Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia, on Sunday 9 August
>1998. Unless otherwise noted, scripture quotations are from The Holy
>Bible: New International Version (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1980).
>
>[References to the experience of a Uniting Church minister friend with
>parishioners who were also Freemasons, and to an interview with an
>ex-Freemason during the service in which this sermon was preached, have
>been deleted from the text]
It would be enlightenting to discover what these people had to say.
Paul C. Dickie
Goldman.·. <hypn...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:01:58 +0000, "Paul C. Dickie" <p...@bozzie.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>*Indeed. Look at the way he spelled "beseech"...o-)
>It DOESN'T start with a "b"?
o-)
--
< Paul >
Ed King
> Amway? Those satanic devil worshipers? <LOL>
Just so you know....
There ARE those who're convinced that Amway is indeed a cult.
Here are a couple of references:
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/cultism-in-amway
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/amo/
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/myth/
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/nightmare-builders/AMOway.html
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/nightmare-builders/DiffGosp2.html
(that's my favorite!)
While these are all appear to be at the same site, those addresses link
to what appear as independent sites elsewhere. These people are
*serious*! Perhaps that's why some have a problem with Freemasonry:
they don't understand what's going on and they aren't mature enough to
understand it. Ergo, it must be a cult!
Maybe we'll find more on OTHER so-called anti-cult sites too.... <BWG>
Fraternally,
Ed
http://www.masonicinfo.com -- Anti-Masonry: Points of View
AUBREY BROWN SR
You mean Amway isn't a cult! All the money I could have saved buying their
cheaper products! You know how much a 15 yo daughter spends a month on
cosmetic supplies! Why didn't I learn the truth 2 years ago!
--
Past Master Aubrey Brown Sr. MPS
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
Ed King wrote in message ...
Ed King
> Ed,
>
> You mean Amway isn't a cult! All the money I could have saved buying their
> cheaper products! You know how much a 15 yo daughter spends a month on
> cosmetic supplies! Why didn't I learn the truth 2 years ago!
If it isn't them, it'd be Mary Kay or somebody else, Brother! Look out for
those pink cadillacs.... We've got a couple around here (and one woman who
drives a pink Lincoln for some bizarre reason!).
AUBREY BROWN SR
It could be worst. I've spotted a couple of pink Mercedes around ChiTown.
They are rewards for high sales volume. The higher the volume, the more
expensive the car given as a reward.
--
Past Master Aubrey Brown Sr. MPS
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
Ed King wrote in message ...