Is there a way to respond to an expired article if you know the message ID?

[Arlen Holder]

Is there a way to respond to an expired article if you know the message ID?
(assuming only purposefully free newsservers are in use such as neodome)

This is an old Message-ID of my thread from 12/16/2018 about FreedomPop:
o OLD: Message-ID: <pv6ei5$bs0$1...@news.mixmin.net>

This is a new Message-ID of my article from today about FreedomPop:
o NEW: Message-ID: <rgak4b$vll$1...@news.mixmin.net>

All I want to do is UPDATE the old thread
o <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.mobile.android/uZkl7ny85II/XGtsBWimCQAJ>
With the same information that is in the new article above.
o <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.mobile.android/G6ZWN1SiJSs/53fw6vQNBAAJ>

When I check the free newsservers, the OLD article has expired in all.

{me} telnet news.neodome.net 119
Trying 95.216.243.224...
Connected to neodome.net.
Escape character is '^]'.
200 news.neodome.net InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.6.3 ready (posting ok)

{me} help
200 news.neodome.net InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.6.3 ready (posting ok)
100 Legal commands
ARTICLE [message-ID|number]
AUTHINFO USER name|PASS password|GENERIC program [argument ...]
BODY [message-ID|number]
CAPABILITIES [keyword]
COMPRESS DEFLATE
DATE
GROUP newsgroup
HDR header [message-ID|range]
HEAD [message-ID|number]
HELP
IHAVE message-ID
LAST
LIST [ACTIVE [wildmat]|ACTIVE.TIMES [wildmat]|COUNTS
[wildmat]|DISTRIB.PATS|DISTRIBUTIONS|HEADERS
[MSGID|RANGE]|MODERATORS|MOTD|NEWSGROUPS
[wildmat]|OVERVIEW.FMT|SUBSCRIPTIONS [wildmat]]
LISTGROUP [newsgroup [range]]
MODE READER
NEWGROUPS [yy]yymmdd hhmmss [GMT]
NEWNEWS wildmat [yy]yymmdd hhmmss [GMT]
NEXT
OVER [range]
POST
QUIT
STARTTLS
STAT [message-ID|number]
XGTITLE [wildmat]
XHDR header [message-ID|range]
XOVER [range]
XPAT header message-ID|range pattern [pattern ...]
Report problems to <use...@neodome.net>.
.

{me} group comp.mobile.android
211 6888 1354 8251 comp.mobile.android

{me} article <rgak4b$vll$1...@news.mixmin.net>
220 0 <rgak4b$vll$1...@news.mixmin.net> article
Path: news.neodome.net!news.mixmin.net!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Arlen Holder <arlen...@newmachine.com>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
Subject: Re: T-Mobile Sprint Merger: Say goodbye to scam calls
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
blah blah blah
.

{me} article <pv6ei5$bs0$1...@news.mixmin.net>
430 No such article

This shows I can easily respond to the new article, but not the old.

In summary, given I simply want to add the new article to the old thread,
without creating a new thread, but just by updating the old thread...

Is there a way, using only the basic known purposefully free newsservers,
to respond to an old expired article via telnet?

[kensi]

On 8/4/2020 12:18 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Is there a way, using only the basic known purposefully free newsservers,
> to respond to an old expired article via telnet?

Just use any reader software or method that will let you hand-edit the
References: header before sending, and add the desired Message-ID to
this. If need be, add the header itself, too.

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:36:09 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> But the OP would have to be in position to edit headers on the proto
> article in order to do that, as it's a feature of no newsreader.

Thanks to all who purposefully helpfully posted the solution to the given
problem set of updating an expired thread with new information, without
creating a disjoint new thread, and which is then permanently archived
by dejagoogle and any other permanent Usenet archive that is out there.

My goal was to UPDATE the permanent archives, without creating a new
thread, where the permanent archives, in this case, is an Android ng:
o <http://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-android>
o <http://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com>

The suggestion of using the nntp "reference header" seems to have worked
the first time I tried it as shown in this screenshot just before sending:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/kGG8W31b/telnetnntp01.jpg>

It seems to have worked in that typical permanent archives were updated:
o <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.mobile.android/uZkl7ny85II/XGtsBWimCQAJ>
o <https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/c6M64Wr0/do-you-use-freedompop-in-the-usa-if-so-what-are-the-details>

Where I didn't know what would happen if I used multiple message-id's in
the reference header, so I used only the one message-id from the original
post.
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/uZkl7ny85II/b-W2UAM1BAAJ>
o <https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/c6M64Wr0/do-you-use-freedompop-in-the-usa-if-so-what-are-the-details#post8>

Where a simple search will find the thread, including the belated update:
o <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.mobile.android/freedompop>
o <https://narkive.com/search?q=freedompop> (I don't know how to do a ng-only search)

This is a good general purpose solution, using telnet, to update an old
thread which has been expired from our current news servers, as it could
just as well have been the Usenet newsreader newsgroup:
o <http://tinyurl.com/news-software-readers>
o <http://news.software.readers.narkive.com>

Or the free newsserver newsgroup (or any permanently archived newsgroup):
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newsservers>
o <http://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com>

So that others always benefit from every action, here's pseudocode:
{me} telnet nntp.aioe.net 119
{me} group comp.mobile.android
{me} post
{it} 340 Ok, recommended message-ID <rgbtq6$blf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
{me} from: Arlen Holder <arlen...@newmachine.com>
{me} newsgroups: comp.mobile.android
{me} subject: Re: Do you use FreedomPop in the USA? If so, what are the details?
{me} message-id: <rgbtq6$blf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
{me} references: <pv6ei5$bs0$1...@news.mixmin.net>
{me} <blank line>
<I include the desired update message body here>
{me} .
{me} quit

BTW, it didn't actually go that smoothly simply due to the cut-and-paste
into the Windows Subsystem for Linux isn't necessarily intuitive, and, for
whatever reason, today, the neodome server was down, but nonetheless, the
purposefully helpful advice of using the reference header worked great!
o <https://i.postimg.cc/kGG8W31b/telnetnntp01.jpg>

The reason why it matters is that my goal on Usenet is to create useful
permanent archives of (tons of) tutorials and answers to questions and
freeware reviews, etc., so what I want is to APPEND to a thread (however
old) whatever new information is found to SOLVE the problem set (i.e., I
didn't want to create a new thread).

Now, when someone searches the permanent archives, they can find the new
update inside the old thread, and, since the new article isn't expired,
others can add more information (which they already did!).
o <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.mobile.android/freedompop>

Thanks for being purposefully helpful in answering the given question.
--
2 kinds of people post to Usenet: Those who add value; and those who chat.

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:36:09 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Yes, that would be a standard References header in a followup. The old
> References header in the precursor article is retained with the Message-ID
> of the precursor article appended to the end.

Given Adam H. Kerman was purposefully helpful, I'm posting another response
as I realized, belatedly, in my haste to show that it worked, I forgot to
answer _all_ his questions!

Let me know if my response below needs further clarification.

> Also, the OP would still need to see the precursor article with its
> References header in order to copy its contents into the followup
> article he's writing. If he can find it on a server in which it's not
> been expired, why not just inject the followup through that server?

That's a perfectly valid question, where I do things differently than many
of you in that I only use free newsservers (e.g., mixmin, neodome, aioe,
etc.), for privacy reasons... where EVERY ONE I checked had expired the
thread I wanted to UPDATE.

Of course, I can always find the article in the permanent archives:

o <http://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-android>
o <http://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com>

But I can't post from narkive, and I wouldn't want to post from the
dejagoogle archives (for privacy reasons which are obvious to all).

Do you know of any other way to respond to an expired article than telnet?
(or your ancient newsreader which you get reamed for using! :)

> But the OP would have to be in position to edit headers on the proto
> article in order to do that, as it's a feature of no newsreader.

My "newsreader" is an amalgam of scripts written originally by Marek
Novotny on the Linux newsgroup <http://tinyurl.com/alt-os-linux>, where the
end result is that it randomly chooses any one of six thousand free vpn
servers, and it uses a random time clock (if I want to privatize my date
stamp) and random identifying headers, etc..

The actual interface to the article is vi (on Linux) & vim (on Windows).

It doesn't do killfiles all that well, as I have to manually add the person
to plonk them, so I've only plonked two people in my entire life (Snit and
Alan Baker), but it works well for my purposes, which are privacy for the
headers and editing functionality for the body.

> Funny, I can edit headers in the composer of my newsreader with its
> ancient interface that I regularly get condemned for continuing to use.

hehhehheh... I started with rn and then went to tin way back when I was on
Solaris machines, where I know what you mean in that sometimes, the old
stuff has key functionality that the new stuff doesn't have.

The only thing I'm a bit confused about is how the "threading" works when I
want to insert the last article into a current article that has a bunch of
message-id's in the References header, where you explained it well.

I only used a _single_ message-id in my references header on this 1st test:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/kGG8W31b/telnetnntp01.jpg>

But in the future, I'll test how the "threading" works when I add multiple
message-id's to the References header (I admit, I really don't know how
threading works because my system has a rudimentary LIFO sorting output).

Thanks for your purposefully helpful advice!
--
Two kinds of people are on Usenet - those who add value & those who chat.

[Eli the Bearded]

In news.software.readers, Arlen Holder <arlen...@newmachine.com> wrote:
> Given Adam H. Kerman was purposefully helpful, I'm posting another response
> as I realized, belatedly, in my haste to show that it worked, I forgot to
> answer _all_ his questions!
>
> Let me know if my response below needs further clarification.

Learn to use the Supersedes: header when you are replacing a post with a
revised version. Those of us using news servers that honor cancels and
supersedes will only need to see one of your replies.

Also, using Google Groups URLs is fraught. They do not seem to care if
they break links when they make changes. Message-IDs are more stable.
Non-Usenet / Google Groups repositories of knowledge are even better at
being longterm useful.

Elijah
------
consider a wiki, for example

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:26:15 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

> Convention is that the References header has the message ID of the first
> article in a thread, and (up to) the four most recent articles
> previously. If you provide more or fewer message IDs different software
> might have different success in threading messages. I find trn tries
> very heroically to thread stuff, and can deal with just a single message
> ID, but to use the thread tree selector it does help to have more.

>
>> References header in the precursor article is retained with the Message-ID
>> of the precursor article appended to the end.
>

> References: <original@id> <message-4@id> <message-3@id> <message-2@id> <message-1@id>

Thanks Eli the Bearded for patiently explaining the References header
convention of <original><fourth><third><second><first response>

Where I see exactly that in your headers just now:
Message-ID: <eli$20080...@qaz.wtf>
References: <rganif$m4h$1...@neodome.net> <159655248...@zzo38computer.org> <rgc2pp$11r$2...@dont-email.me>

Where <rganif$m4h$1...@neodome.net> is the original post, by me;
And <rganif$m4h$1...@neodome.net> is the first response by ne...@zzo38computer.org.invalid
And <159655248...@zzo38computer.org> is a response to that by "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
And <rgc2pp$11r$2...@dont-email.me> is your response to Adam Kerman.

I had never looked at threading before, mainly because my newsreader setup
uses LIFO for the most part, as it's an amalgam of scripts & dictionary and
vpn files and killswitches and header lines, etc., i.e., not a newsreader,
per se (although it works just fine "as" a newsreader, only it uses telnet
and vim & a bunch of dictionary scripts to randomize key headers for
privacy).

>> Also, the OP would still need to see the precursor article with its
>> References header in order to copy its contents into the followup
>> article he's writing. If he can find it on a server in which it's not
>> been expired, why not just inject the followup through that server?
>

> It doesn't matter where he injects it, the NNTP servers don't care about
> threading, that's a newsreader concern.

Thanks for clarifying that all I need to know are two things to inject the
article seamlessly into any free newsserver (bearing in mind that free
newsservers are all that I use, e.g., dizum, netfront, albasani, etc.),
again, for basic privacy reasons.

>> But the OP would have to be in position to edit headers on the proto
>> article in order to do that, as it's a feature of no newsreader.
>

> OP seemed capable enough using NNTP directly. It's just a matter of
> connecting and POSTing. For simplicity, I'd probably precompose the
> message and then use cut-n-paste. Or just use a dummy inews to do that:
>
> https://qaz.wtf/src/inews.tgz
>
> That's the one I've been using since my a.s.s.m moderator days in the
> mid-1990s.

I happened to be on Windows when I tested this (although I could have been
on Linux) where I simply used the Windows Subsystem for Linux because
"telnet" and "bang bang" and "bang minus-1 global search & replace", etc.,
is easier when I'm experimenting with commands.

My sequence was pretty simple, although I had a slight problem on pasting
and a slight problem with "telnet" so I went to WSL instead, and then I had
a slight problem with neodome so I went to aioe instead, and then I had a
slight problem with pasting but I went with control+q instead, etc. :)

Pseudocode... (so that others can reproduce for themselves}
{me} Win+R > cmd {alt+ctrl+enter} <== optional, to get an admin cmd window
{it} C:\WINDOWS\system32> <== this is the admin $p$g prompt apparently
{me} C:\WINDOWS\system32> telnet
{it} 'telnet' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
{it} operable program or batch file. <== I could "enable" it but screw that
c:\> wsl <== optional, to get into the Windows subsystem for Linux
{it} uname@pcname:/mnt/c/WINDOWS/system32$ <== this is the wsl prompt
{me} uname@pcname:/mnt/c/WINDOWS/system32$ telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
{it} Trying 46.165.242.75...
{it} Connected to nntp.aioe.org.
{it} Escape character is '^]'.
{it} 200 nntp.aioe.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.4 ready (posting ok)

{me} post
{it} 340 Ok, recommended message-ID <rgbtq6$blf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
{me} from: Arlen Holder <arlen...@newmachine.com>
{me} newsgroups: comp.mobile.android
{me} subject: Re: Do you use FreedomPop in the USA? If so, what are the details?
{me} message-id: <rgbtq6$blf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
{me} references: <pv6ei5$bs0$1...@news.mixmin.net>
{me} <blank line>

<I first tried control+V to paste but then went with control+q>
{me} .
{me} quit

In actuality, the screenshot below skips the failed Windows telnet step
(and yes, I could look up how to enable telnet, but wsl is so much better)
so I actually started it with wsl:
{me} Win+R > wsl {enter}
{it} uname@pcname:/mnt/c/{where you were}$ <== this is the wsl prompt

The advantage of WSL inside of Windows is you get nice Linux tools that
operate on the Windows files (e.g., locate, grep, sed, awk, ls, etc.).
--
For a five-minute tutorial on installing WSL from the command line, see:
o Tutorial for setting up Ubuntu as a Windows Subsystem for Linux WSL in Windows 10
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/PV4Shdb67iM>

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 20:47:15 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> {me} Win+R > cmd {alt+ctrl+enter} <== optional, to get an admin cmd window

Oooooooops. Correction!

I put the wrong control characters, and since I'm always trying to help
others, just allow me to clarify the "cmd" control character difference
(since I always want others to just "cut and paste" from my posts):

Windows 10:
o Win+R > cmd {Enter} <== this opens a "user" command window
o Win+R > cmd {Ctrl+Shift+Enter} <== this opens an "admin" command window

Yet... paradoxically...
o Win+R > wsl {Enter} <== a "whoami" shows this to be a "user" window
o Win+R > wsl {Ctrl+Shift+Enter} <== this is _still_ a "user" window

However, strangely enough...
o Win+R > wsl {Enter} <== pwd shows the cwd is /mnt/c/Users/{user}$
o Win+R > wsl {Ctrl+Shift+Enter} <== cwd is set as /mnt/c/WINDOWS/system32

Hence, there is some "magic" in the control+shift+enter sequence.
o What Windows "magic" invokes a command window as an Administrator window simply by using Control+Shift+Enter versus Enter?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.msdos.batch/ee2rqSSOkS4>

Go figure.
--
The reason this is important is when you're entering telnet commands, the
Linux telnet has options not necessarily in the Windows telnet, and, more
importantly, the Linux (in this case, Ubuntu) shell also has nice options.

[Eli the Bearded]

In news.software.readers, Arlen Holder <arlen...@newmachine.com> wrote:

> I had never looked at threading before, mainly because my newsreader setup
> uses LIFO for the most part, as it's an amalgam of scripts & dictionary and
> vpn files and killswitches and header lines, etc., i.e., not a newsreader,
> per se (although it works just fine "as" a newsreader, only it uses telnet
> and vim & a bunch of dictionary scripts to randomize key headers for
> privacy).

trn is not the best newsreader with respect to newfangledness like
"UTF-8", but it is the best newsreader with respect to "can be compiled
on something that looks like Unix". You might want to give it a try. I
suspect compiling on the Windows Linux subsystem will be a breeze.

I got it to compile and run under Termux on my Android phone.

> My sequence was pretty simple, although I had a slight problem on pasting
> and a slight problem with "telnet" so I went to WSL instead, and then I had
> a slight problem with neodome so I went to aioe instead, and then I had a
> slight problem with pasting but I went with control+q instead, etc. :)

There's an NNTP module for Perl at CPAN that could probably also be
pressed into service as an inews replacement. I use that module for
accessing raw articles from the server and raw overview headers for
post analysis. (Not that I do either often.)

> {it} Escape character is '^]'.
> {it} 200 nntp.aioe.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.4 ready (posting ok)
> {me} post
> {it} 340 Ok, recommended message-ID <rgbtq6$blf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

The convention I've seen used is >>> and <<< lines to indicate the
back and forth, but that works. Does nntp.aioe.org not require a login
to post? Or is it whitelisting by some other metric? (The newsserver I
use white lists by IP address and requires a password for outside
sources.)

> The advantage of WSL inside of Windows is you get nice Linux tools that
> operate on the Windows files (e.g., locate, grep, sed, awk, ls, etc.).

The advantage of Linux is you get nice Unix tools that operate without
paying for Unix licensing (e.g., find, grep, sed, awk, ls, etc.).

Elijah
------
sees no advantage to paying for Windows licensing to use Unix tools

[Adam H. Kerman]

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

>trn is not the best newsreader with respect to newfangledness like
>"UTF-8", but it is the best newsreader with respect to "can be compiled
>on something that looks like Unix". You might want to give it a try. I
>suspect compiling on the Windows Linux subsystem will be a breeze.

If I use UTF-8, trn expects me to add MIME headers, which I do. I don't
bother with ASCII.

Kids today are spoiled with newsreaders that do everything.

>I got it to compile and run under Termux on my Android phone.

Hey, that's wonderful!

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:53:09 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

> Does nntp.aioe.org not require a login to post?

Hi Eli the Bearded,

Yes. You are correct. I use no-login apps for privacy, where, even on
Android and Windows, I ensure there is almost never any login to any server
ever in order to get the app to work (e.g., neither Windows nor and Android
phone requires a login to a server to be effective, but iOS does).

A more detailed answer to your question is that there are a handful of
purposefully free news servers which do not require a login/password to
post, such as aioe, mixmin, netfront, neodome, etc., which assists you in
your privacy (especially when on VPN & when using Stunnel or encryption).

Other purposefully free news servers publicize a default login/password
(e.g., guest/guest), where you can find out about all the purposefully free
news servers and their login credentials on the cc'd news group a.f.n:

o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newsservers>
o <http://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com>

With VPN, you get added privacy, where thousands of free openvpn config
files are available which we've discussed at length on the Linux & Windows
newsgroups many times in the past <http://tinyurl.com/alt-os-linux>:
o For example, <http://vpngate.net>

And, with telnet, you get added control over your time zone stamp,
newsreader line, etc., where I use the telnet scripts that Marek Novotny
kindly wrote up for us years ago, which make use of dictionary-style
lookups for the headers and for the newsservers, etc.

> Or is it whitelisting by some other metric? (The newsserver I
> use white lists by IP address and requires a password for outside
> sources.)

No. Any IP address (practically) can post to the purposefully free news
servers which I've tested since I have over six thousand free VPN servers
to choose from (see long threads on this topic in alt.os.linux).

Each news server admin does control spam though, so, while it has never
happened to me, they do block people, manually, when they spam or when they
get complaints.

In addition, each purposefully free news server uses various algorithms to
control spam (e.g., aioe doesn't allow more than three crossposted
newsgroups, as I recall).

But anyone can post to them, where I have a thread on all of the free news
servers and their login credentials on
<http://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newssservers>.

Bear in mind that newsgroup is filled with trolls though, so, you have to
wade through the childish crap - where at least most people there are
pretty good with NNTP protocol (so just ignore the childish trolls).

>> The advantage of WSL inside of Windows is you get nice Linux tools that
>> operate on the Windows files (e.g., locate, grep, sed, awk, ls, etc.).
>
> The advantage of Linux is you get nice Unix tools that operate without
> paying for Unix licensing (e.g., find, grep, sed, awk, ls, etc.).

Don't get me wrong; I love Linux (I cut my teeth on the DEC & on the PDP 11
before Masscomp, SunOS and Solaris and then Centos/Redhat before Ubuntu).

Linux is great, where I have _plenty_ of tutorials on dual booting Linux
with Windows, since Linux gives you special privileges, such as being able
to turn an iOS device into a read/write device for free:
o How to read/write access iOS file systems on Ubuntu/Windows over USB cable
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/z_KXY4IHLe0>

The beauty of dual boot Windows & Linux is that the Linux gives you
complete access to the entire visible iOS file system _and_ Windows, at the
same time (yes, simultaneously!), where you can't get that with Windows or
the Mac alone (AFAIK).
o Simultaneously slide Windows Linux iOS Android files back and forth over USB at 7GB per minute speeds using 100% native devices (no proprietary software needed)
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/WqIDiVbawRs>

In fact, I strive to make _all_ the operating systems access files from
each other, including iOS which is the most brain dead of them all, IMHO:
o How do we most easily set up a freeware network of Windows + Linux + iOS + Android file systems
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/tKhwlZyOhf0>

While a dual boot Linux is preferable to a straight linux because it
accesses the Windows and Linux file systems simultaneously, and while VMs
and emulation and porting of Linux commands to Windows has been around
forever, I prefer, lately, the huge advantage of adding WSL to Windows.

It only takes about five minutes, and it allows me to run Linux commands
directly on the Windows file system without needing to bother to reboot.

o Tutorial for setting up Ubuntu as a Windows Subsystem for Linux WSL in Windows 10
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/PV4Shdb67iM>

However, dual booting Windows & Linux isn't without its pitfalls. :)
o How to reset dual boot Linux:Win GRUB after "inaccessible boot device"
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/DWccp5p47Vo>

o Proactive setup instructions for dual boot with Windows & Ubuntu via Grub using legacy keyboards
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/WltumTFjzU8>

o Why doesn't Ubuntu 18.04 ask to install next to Windows 10 Pro single HDD as a dual boot?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/D7E7FQ1NLNk>

To more fully answer your question, notice in the last three cites above,
dual booting to Linux with Windows isn't always a cakewalk (although
usually it is); which is why I _love_ that it only takes minutes to add
Ubuntu to Windows as a windows subsystem for linux (WSL).

In short, it was easier to run the telnet suggestions in wsl than it would
have been to boot to Linux to run the exact same commands. :)
--
Usenet is valuable when everyone us purposefully helpful & polite.

[Tebentedor]

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:10:45 +0000, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Do you know of any other way to respond to an expired article than telnet?

Pan can do it. Begin composing an article; save it as a draft; the draft is
a plain text file in ~/.pan2/article-drafts which can be edited externally
to add the References: header; then reopen the draft in Pan, finish
composing if there's any composing left to do, and send.

Check out the References: header of this article. :)

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:11:54 -0000 (UTC), Tebentedor wrote:

> Pan can do it. Begin composing an article; save it as a draft; the draft is
> a plain text file in ~/.pan2/article-drafts which can be edited externally
> to add the References: header; then reopen the draft in Pan, finish
> composing if there's any composing left to do, and send.
>
> Check out the References: header of this article. :)

Hi Tebentedor,

Thank you for that useful purposefully helpful advice, where that makes two
bona fide newsreaders which can properly edit the headers in the proto
article.
o <http://pan.rebelbase.com/>
"It runs on Linux, BSD systems, Mac OS X, and Windows."

While I loved that Pan was cross platform (I always try to make all five
operating systems coexist, iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, and well, if I had
one, the Mac - where I used to use CAP (Columbia Appletalk Protocol) to
make the Mac work with Linux & Windows long ago)...

The fact is I had dropped Pan long ago due to the need of adding Stunnel
for encryption, but I'm sure they've fixed that in the later releases.

I think the last Pan I used was 0.138, which, according to their web page,
was circa 2012, so maybe it's time to add it back to my arsenal of tools!

Thanks for that purposefully helpful hint, which not only helps me, the OP,
but also, as all good threads should, it helps everyone who needs to
respond to an expired article.
--
Usenet is a public helpdesk where people purposefully assist each other.

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 01:56:23 -0400, kensi wrote:

> Just use any reader software or method that will let you hand-edit the
> References: header before sending, and add the desired Message-ID to
> this. If need be, add the header itself, too.

Hi kensi,

Thanks for that purposefully helpful advice.

Based on these two posters in this thread, the good news is that,
apparently, both pan & trn can manually edit the headers of the proto
article.
o Tebentedor (Pan/0.142)
o Adam H. Kerman (trn 4.0-test77)

The two post with that header-editing information in this thread are:
o pan <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/news.software.readers/wCuH27s14eQ/9Q_HyBJNBQAJ>
o trn <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/news.software.readers/wCuH27s14eQ/kqIQB48gBQAJ>

Cross platform download so that others can just click for the solution:
o pan <http://pan.rebelbase.com/>
o trn <https://sourceforge.net/projects/trn/>
--
Yes, I know, we all extensively used rn, tin & trn in the olden days...

[Eli the Bearded]

In news.software.readers, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>> trn is not the best newsreader with respect to newfangledness like
>> "UTF-8", but it is the best newsreader with respect to "can be compiled

> If I use UTF-8, trn expects me to add MIME headers, which I do. I don't
> bother with ASCII.

Yeah, but that's not the real issue(s). You can set up a default set
of headers once and forget about it.

1. As distributed, it has a bug stripping highbit control characters
which munge UTF-8. The hack fix is use -j to disable all control
character filtering. Real fix is to disable highbit control
character filtering:

--- trn-4.0-test77/art.c.orig 2010-09-02 02:12:26.000000000 -0400
+++ trn-4.0-test77/art.c 2018-03-01 20:15:59.000000000 -0500
@ -468,7 +468,7 @@
outpos += 2;
}
else { /* other control char */
- if (dont_filter_control) {
+ if (dont_filter_control || (*bufptr & 0x80)) {
if (outputok)
putchar(*bufptr);
outpos++;

2. When reading articles not in US-ASCII or the local encoding, trn
makes no attempt to convert characters to the local encoding, but
just dumps them to the screen. Typically (for me) this means
ISO-8859-1 being sent raw to my UTF-8 system.

3. Anywhere trn does string length checks (subject and from in newsgroup
listings, headers and body lines in posts, warnings about lines too
long when posting), those checks are not UTF-8 aware.

> Kids today are spoiled with newsreaders that do everything.

That's why I read mail with mailx, too.

Elijah
------
https://github.com/Eli-the-Bearded/eli-mailx

[s|b]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 04:18:24 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> When I check the free newsservers, the OLD article has expired in all.

Forté Agent can retrieve the old message-id without a problem. Not with
a free newsserver though, I'm using news.individual.net.

--
s|b

[Arlen Holder]

Hi S|b,
You're always purposefully helpful, which is appreciated, where I generally
see you on the OS ngs, e.g., <http://tinyurl.com/comp.mobile.android).

Just to gently clarify, the article being expired has nothing to do with
the newsreader, but with the newsserver, while posting to the expired
article has nothing to do with the newsserver, but with the newsreader.

That's why both newsgroups were added, and they solved the problem set!
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newsservers>
o <http://tinyurl.com/news-software-readers>

In summary, three "newsreaders" are known to solve the problem set:
1. trn (manually edit the header in the trn composer window)
2. pan (manually edit the header in the draft ~/.pan2/article-drafts)
3. telnet (manually include the header while typing the proto article)

Where all of which make use of the Message-ID in the References header:
References: <parent@id> <4th@id> <3rd@id> <2nd@id> <1st@id>

Given RFC 5537 defines how the References header field must be created:
o <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5537#section-3.4.4>

The use model is:
a. Find the expired article's reference id (e.g., via dejagoogle)
b. Construct a message that updates the desired thread with new details
c. Add that Message-ID as one of the IDs in the nntp References header

The result is that in all permanent Usenet archives, the update will be
shown as part of the thread, which is a solution to the given problem set.
--
Note: In culled archives, the article will show up standalone as "Re:".

[Grant Taylor]

On 8/6/20 8:23 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> In summary, three "newsreaders" are known to solve the problem set:

You can probably get Thunderbird to do what you want too.

Add the References: header as one of the optional headers and then
choose it in the message composition window.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

[Robert Marshall]

And in (emacs)gnus by removing "^References" from message-hidden-headers
you can edit the references.

Robert
--
Robert Marshall twitter: @rajm

[Ted Heise]

And I'll just add that slrn brings up the References header in the
editing window by default.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Arlen Holder]

SOLVED (Note: All questions on Usenet should have answers updated!)
(It's a common courtesy, and payback for all the help provided.)
(At least one ng should be dejagoogled, for efficient re-use.)

These "newsreaders" are said by others to solve the problem set:

1. trn (manually edit the header in the trn composer window)

2. slrn (brings up the References header in the editing window by default)
3. pan (manually edit the header in the draft ~/.pan2/article-drafts)
4. Thunderbird (add as optional header & choose it in message composition)
5. (emacs)gnus (remove References from message-hidden-headers to edit)
6. bystand (allows arbitrary creation of any desired header line)
7. telnet (manually include the header while typing the proto article)

Where all of which make use of the Message-ID in the References header:
References: <parent@id> <4th@id> <3rd@id> <2nd@id> <1st@id>

Pseudocode:
telnet nntp.aior.org 119
post
from: Arlen Holder <arlen...@newmachine.com>
newsgroups: comp.mobile.android

subject: Re: Do you use FreedomPop in the USA? If so, what are the details?

message-id: <rgbtq6$blf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
references: <pv6ei5$bs0$1...@news.mixmin.net>
<insert a blank line>
The message body goes here.
.
quit

Where the threading should work just fine in any decent newsreader, and, if
the original article has expired in your newsserver, the threading will
still work just fine in the permanent Usenet archives.

To obtain the Message-ID of the expired root article, or the Message-ID in
the article you're responding to, you'll need a long-term archive, which,
luckily, for some newsgroups, dejagoogle does, and, for almost all
newsgroups, narkive also does (while some news servers also archive well).

For an example of a dejagoogle permanent web-searchable no-login archive:

o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newsservers>
o <http://tinyurl.com/news-software-readers>

And for an example of an arbitrary web-searchable Usenet newsgroup archive:
o <http://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com>
o <http://news.software.readers.narkive.com>

See also:
o Question about telnet commands using nntp protocol on Linux/Windows
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/xvlu-DdVFWI>
--
The beauty of Usenet is we learn from the practices & experiences of all.

[Frank Slootweg]

Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:15:40 -0600,
> Grant Taylor <gta...@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> > On 8/6/20 8:23 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> > > In summary, three "newsreaders" are known to solve the problem
> > > set:
> >
> > You can probably get Thunderbird to do what you want too.
> >
> > Add the References: header as one of the optional headers and
> > then choose it in the message composition window.
>
> And I'll just add that slrn brings up the References header in the
> editing window by default.

And tin does the same and ...

Perhaps the question should be: Which newsreader can *not* do this!?
:-)