Question for newsserver admins on date headers on Mixmin (Steve Crook)

[Henry Jones]

Question for newsserver admins on date headers
(especially Steve Crook)

This question originally came from the windows newsgroups, but it applies
more to newsservers and news agents than to Windows, per se.

Q: Where does the date header actually come from?

1) If we telnet to aioe.org and then run a test post without using a date
header, the resulting date header shows up in UTC time in "+0000 (UTC)"
format.
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)

2) If we telnet to aioe.org and supply a valid date header, then whatever
valid date header was supplied is what results.
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -0000 (UTC)
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (foobar)
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -1234
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46
etc.

3) Then, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone set,
and we post to aioe, we *always* get a date header using the "+0000 (UTC)"
format.
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)

4) Similarly, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone
set, and we post to netfront, we *always* get a date header using the same
"+0000 (UTC)" format.
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)

5) However, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone set,
and we post to mixmin (port 563), we *always* get a date header using a
different "-0000 (UTC)" format.
For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -0000 (UTC)

What is going on?

It seems from our tests above as if Pan isn't sending *any* date header
(and there is no setting to set a date header anyway); so the date header
*seems to be* whatever defaults on the newsserver.

Is that the case?

PS: We're are of the ± syntax:
+0000 means UTC is local time.
-0000 means UTC without indicating local time.
(UTC) is a comment which can be anything inside the (_).

REFERENCES:
RFC 2822 Sec. 3.3 specifies the ANSI standard for legal characters
RFC 3339 specifies the Unknown Local Offset Convention
RFC 5536 specifies the "Date" header field.
RFC 5322 specifies the 'date-time' token.

[TOSEM]

Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote;

>Question for newsserver admins on date headers
>(especially Steve Crook)
>
>This question originally came from the windows newsgroups, but it applies
>more to newsservers and news agents than to Windows, per se.
>
>Q: Where does the date header actually come from?
>

//
In <n.s.r> there exists a thread of ~118 posts in response to the question
in the past 24 hours:
#Subject: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

Having read the thread -- and concurring with much of what is posted as
answers -- I ask now why it is the same question is now being posted to
<a.f.n> and just hours after your last response in that thread:
#Message-ID: <nlc1j4$4jl$1...@news.albasani.net>
#Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 22:21:52 -0000 (UTC)

The discussion continued for some time.. are you finding difficulty
comprehending the answer/s given?

[Henry Jones]

On Mon, 04 Jul 2016 19:44:54 +1000, TOSEM wrote:

> The discussion continued for some time.. are you finding difficulty
> comprehending the answer/s given?

This is a courtesy message to TOSEM, and as such, can be ignored by
everyone else.

I know you to be a class A troll, but since you're the only one who
responded, and, since your response does not appear to be a troll, in and
of itself, I will courteously respond accurately and completely to your
question (since I am entering you into my killfile as soon as I send this
out).

The question is really aimed at newsserver admins (which should be clear
from the subject line and the OP).

Of the newsserver admins, the only one I know of who responds here are
Steve Crook, Ray Banana, and maybe Jesse Rehmer, although Alex, Paolo, and
the other news-server admins are certainly welcome to respond.

Welcome also are the knowledgeable people, but very few non-newsserver
admins will know the answer to this question - which will be just a wild-
assed guess on their part (as it is on mine).

Now we come to your question. I have read every single post on this
subject, having come in from the Windows group and then migrated to the
newsreader group. The number of posts is meaningless. Absolutely
meaningless. Of the actual *useful* posts, there are about a half dozen,
of which half are RFC-related (which *are* useful), and the rest are pure
wild-assed guesses (some of which do *not* fit the facts).

You, TOSEM, are never going to be able to answer the question, simply
because you do not know the answer to the question. It's as simple as
that. I'm far more likely to find out the answer by experimentation, than
I will ever get an ounce of useful information from you.

You will spend infinite time accusing me of being everyone you know, so, I
will save you the time by admitting I'm everyone you think I am. I'm
Derbyshire, and I have sex with sheep and I'm Paul, and whatever you want
me to be.

I will *not* respond to a further message from you as I will plonk you
immediately, if not sooner. There is absolutely no risk to me by putting
you permanently in my killfile because you cannot ever answer the question.

You don't have the skills required to answer the question.
The only skill you have is the ability to type and concoct meaningless
conspiracy theories, which you are welcome to fester in your polluted mind.

In the end, all I care about is the answer to the question.
If the likes of news server admins. Everyone else can only impart a guess,
and my guess (since I have run experiments) is far better than theirs will
be.

Again, I repeat the question, which only seeks an answer.
If this thread is only 3 posts long, yet it has the answer, it would be
considered a success.

*To the newsserver admins*:
Q: How do the date headers get into the header line.
Specifically, how does the "±0000 (UTC)" get there if the news agent
doesn't add it? (or does it?)

[Henry Jones]

On Mon, 04 Jul 2016 20:53:31 +0000, Henry Jones wrote:

> *To the newsserver admins*:
> Q: How do the date headers get into the header line.
> Specifically, how does the "±0000 (UTC)" get there if the news agent
> doesn't add it? (or does it?)

If anyone has openssl (I don't), can you test this out and report back
what the header DATE shows up as?

YOU: openssl news.mixmin.net 563
YOU: post
MIXMIN: 340 Ok, recommended ID <mixmin-will-suggest-a-message-id>
YOU: Message-ID: <use-that-suggested-message-id>
YOU: References: References: <nlck57$bg7$1...@news.mixmin.net>
YOU: Newsgroups: alt.free.newsservers
YOU: Subject: Re: Question for newsserver admins on date headers on Mixmin
(Steve Crook)
YOU: From: you <y...@example.com>
YOU:
YOU: This is a test of "openssl news.mixmin.net 563" sans date.
YOU: .
MIXMIN: 240 Article received <it-will-show-the-message-id>
YOU: quit
YOU: 205 Bye!
YOU: Connection to host lost.

We expect a negative date format (e.g., "-0000 (UTC)"), but I don't have
openssl (I'm only on Windows where it has to be compiled, and I've never
compiled anything before). However, openssl should be almost native on
Linux if you are on Linux.

[TOSEM]

Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using
puppet>Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote;

>If anyone has openssl (I don't), can you test this out and report back
>what the header DATE shows up as?
>

/LOFRL
..not 0nce but Twice ..!..<nleica$1r2v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

Hi Paul... busy 4July weekend at the keyboard..?[rhet]

ewe can run, Paul,,, but as you find.. yew can't hide
yer tells :---D
--
<n.s.r> added
fup to <a.idiots>

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 03:11:36 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote:

>Question for newsserver admins on date headers
>(especially Steve Crook)
>
>This question originally came from the windows newsgroups, but it applies
>more to newsservers and news agents than to Windows, per se.
>
>Q: Where does the date header actually come from?

Seamus, the date header actually comes from the nntp
server.

HTH.

Now, please shut your troll pie hole.




--

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

"It is my learned opinion that a man
should not mince words just to spare
the sensibilities of the thin-skinned
or the ignorant."

[TOSEM]

"Sir Gregory Hall, Esq." <greghall@yacht_master.fake> wrote;

>On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 03:11:36 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote:
>
>>Question for newsserver admins on date headers
>>(especially Steve Crook)
>>
>>This question originally came from the windows newsgroups, but it applies
>>more to newsservers and news agents than to Windows, per se.
>>
>>Q: Where does the date header actually come from?
>
>Seamus, the date header actually comes from the nntp
>server.
>
>HTH.
>
>Now, please shut your troll pie hole.

heh.. Paul has been told that (date origin for mixmin)... several times.
Paul thinks that should be fixed..heh :---D

..stay tuned for Durrbs tantrun @ 11

[Steve Crook]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 03:11:36 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones wrote in
Message-Id: <nlck57$bg7$1...@news.mixmin.net>:

> Question for newsserver admins on date headers
> (especially Steve Crook)
>
> This question originally came from the windows newsgroups, but it applies
> more to newsservers and news agents than to Windows, per se.
>
> Q: Where does the date header actually come from?

The Date header is a mandatory field, usually added by the posting
agent. If the agent doesn't supply one, the server could either reject
it, or (more commonly) add one itself.

> 1) If we telnet to aioe.org and then run a test post without using a date
> header, the resulting date header shows up in UTC time in "+0000 (UTC)"
> format.
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
>
> 2) If we telnet to aioe.org and supply a valid date header, then whatever
> valid date header was supplied is what results.
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -0000 (UTC)
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (foobar)
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -1234
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46
> etc.

The Date header spec is pretty loose. This has come about by changing
requirements over several decades. According to the current spec, the
"+/- 4Digit" element specifies the timezone but it makes allowances for
virtually freeform text after it due to the obsolete formats that still
exist in many agents.

>
> 3) Then, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone set,
> and we post to aioe, we *always* get a date header using the "+0000 (UTC)"
> format.
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
>
> 4) Similarly, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone
> set, and we post to netfront, we *always* get a date header using the same
> "+0000 (UTC)" format.
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
>
> 5) However, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone set,
> and we post to mixmin (port 563), we *always* get a date header using a
> different "-0000 (UTC)" format.
> For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -0000 (UTC)
>
> What is going on?

The +0000 format SHOULD be used to indicate UTC but -0000 is also
acceptable. Both mean zero hours deviation from UTC.

> It seems from our tests above as if Pan isn't sending *any* date header
> (and there is no setting to set a date header anyway); so the date header
> *seems to be* whatever defaults on the newsserver.

Yes, that certainly appears to be the case. It's not ideal as the
server cannot convey what timezone the user is in.

> Is that the case?
>
> PS: We're are of the ± syntax:
> +0000 means UTC is local time.
> -0000 means UTC without indicating local time.
> (UTC) is a comment which can be anything inside the (_).
>
> REFERENCES:
> RFC 2822 Sec. 3.3 specifies the ANSI standard for legal characters
> RFC 3339 specifies the Unknown Local Offset Convention
> RFC 5536 specifies the "Date" header field.
> RFC 5322 specifies the 'date-time' token.

--
And with glasses high we raised a cry for freedom had arrived

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:01:13 +0000, Steve Crook wrote:

> The +0000 format SHOULD be used to indicate UTC but -0000 is also
> acceptable. Both mean zero hours deviation from UTC.

Thanks Steve for weighing in, and for wading past the inevitable trolls
that frequent this newsgroup.

Just to clarify, while both the -0000 and the +0000 indicate zero hours
deviation from UTC, they do mean slightly different things to the
technorati.

According to RFC3339: 4.3. Unknown Local Offset Convention
If the time in UTC is known, but the offset to local time is
unknown, this can be represented with an offset of "-00:00". This
differs semantically from an offset of "Z" or "+00:00", which imply
that UTC is the preferred reference point for the specified time.
RFC2822 [IMAIL-UPDATE] describes a similar convention for email.

It seems that aioe and netfront use +0000 but really should be using -0000
as your server does (unless they are both actually located in UTC where UTC
is the server's actual local time).

According to https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.3
"The form "+0000" SHOULD be used to indicate a time zone at
Universal Time. Though "-0000" also indicates Universal Time,
it is used to indicate that the time was generated on a system
that may be in a local time zone other than Universal Time
and that the date-time contains no information about the local
time zone.

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:01:13 +0000, Steve Crook wrote:

>> It seems from our tests above as if Pan isn't sending *any* date header
>> (and there is no setting to set a date header anyway); so the date
>> header *seems to be* whatever defaults on the newsserver.
> Yes, that certainly appears to be the case. It's not ideal as the
> server cannot convey what timezone the user is in.

Thanks Steve,

I ran further tests, using a newsreader (40tude dialog) that can remove
outgoing headers, which pretty much proved that Pan isn't sending *any*
date header.

That explains why your Mixmin server is forced to add the date header on
this particular post (which is using Pan).

I believe your server's use of -0000 is the correct setting, since your
server is likely not located in UTC (in which case it would use +0000
instead).

[Henry Jones]

> I believe your server's use of -0000 is the correct setting, since your
> server is likely not located in UTC (in which case it would use +0000
> instead).

Here is a post from 40tude dialog which *is* sending out a date header to
Mixmin.

The date header above should be generated from my local machine's timezone
setting (which is set to GMT -2 Mid Atlantic).

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:37:59 -0100, Henry Jones wrote:

> The date header above should be generated from my local machine's timezone
> setting (which is set to GMT -2 Mid Atlantic).

Here's the same test to mixmim.

[TOSEM]

Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using
puppet>Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote;

>Here's the same test to mixmim.<---------- add that faux par to yer script parse'n corrector.!!

errr.. yer really stretching the welcome in using our(tino) bandwidth for
yer dance steps in testing.
Is the locality of test froups lost to you,, n00b?

--
note: attribution line sees a permanent change to better indicate to new
players just whom is the puppet master behind the k00k Show.
"Paula's Downfall - The sock from zoonoses.de gets Pwned"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyBYSuqQBQ

[Adam H. Kerman]

Steve Crook <st...@mixmin.net> wrote:

You know, seamus has managed to drag this discussion elsewhere. If you
insist on troll feeding seamus yet again, let's stick with the current
standard, shall we?

It's "+/- 4Digit" OR one of the time zone abbreviations that were commonly
used in the past and acknowledged as obsolete in the currect standard
when, btw, UTC wasn't yet the commonly-used abbreviation for Coordinated
Universal Time.

Steve, it is not both. The abbreviations are obsolete but they are still
standard. If both "+/- 4Digit" AND "virtually freeform text after it
due to the obsolete formats" are used, that would be nonstandard. Please
don't advise this, Steve.

You're just adding confusion here and you're playing seamus's silly game.

Conventionally, one might include the time zone abbreviation in a
parenthetical comment, as comments are allowed on the Date header, but
if the abbreviation is used in parentheses, it is a comment and the
contents of a comment are freeform, never addressed in standard.

>>3) Then, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone set,
>>and we post to aioe, we *always* get a date header using the "+0000 (UTC)"
>>format.
>>For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)

>>4) Similarly, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone
>>set, and we post to netfront, we *always* get a date header using the same
>>"+0000 (UTC)" format.
>>For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)

>>5) However, if we post from Pan 0.140 on WinXP with a local time zone set,
>>and we post to mixmin (port 563), we *always* get a date header using a
>>different "-0000 (UTC)" format.
>>For example: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 -0000 (UTC)

>>What is going on?

>The +0000 format SHOULD be used to indicate UTC but -0000 is also

>acceptable. Both mean zero hours deviation from UTC. . . .

That's merely part of the meaning. The full meaning is that +0000 indicates
that UTC is local time, i.e. local time in London when winter time is
in effect. -0000 means that local time isn't indicated or is unknown,
so we're using UTC instead.

Therefore, when various News servers have been adding a Date header to
the proto-article received from the user that didn't include a valid Date
header, and the time local to the News server isn't indicated, then
-0000 is standard and +0000 is nonstandard. As noted in the other thread,
any number of articles have had +0000 included on the Date header, which
is harmless but nonstandard.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote:

>Thanks Steve for weighing in, and for wading past the inevitable trolls
>that frequent this newsgroup.

hi seamus

[kensi]

On 04/07/2016 4:53 PM, Henry Jones wrote:
> This is a courtesy message to TOSEM, and as such, can be ignored by
> everyone else.
>
> I know you to be a class A troll,

Oh, he's a lot more than a mere troll; like L. Ron Hubbard he bought his
own publicity eventually and became a full-blown kOok.

> but since you're the only one who responded, and, since your response
> does not appear to be a troll, in and of itself, I will courteously
> respond accurately and completely to your question (since I am entering
> you into my killfile as soon as I send this out).

Futile, especially if you tell him you're doing it. He'll morph and/or
spawn a fresh sockpuppet.

> You, TOSEM, are never going to be able to answer the question, simply
> because you do not know the answer to the question. It's as simple as
> that. I'm far more likely to find out the answer by experimentation, than
> I will ever get an ounce of useful information from you.

SPNAK!

*snicker*

> You will spend infinite time accusing me of being everyone you know, so, I
> will save you the time by admitting I'm everyone you think I am. I'm

> D*rbysh*r*, and I have sex with sheep and I'm Paul, and whatever you want
> me to be.

*snicker*

> You don't have the skills required to answer the question.
> The only skill you have is the ability to type and concoct meaningless
> conspiracy theories, which you are welcome to fester in your polluted mind.

*snicker*

> *To the newsserver admins*:
> Q: How do the date headers get into the header line.
> Specifically, how does the "±0000 (UTC)" get there if the news agent
> doesn't add it? (or does it?)

Date: is a required header field, per RFC1036, which also recommends GMT
(but should probably be UTC these days) for that field.

RFC5537 clearly implies (in §3.4) that a proto-article (i.e., what you
compose in a newsreader and click "send" on) may lack the Date: field,
but states that this is a mandatory field in an injected article, which
means the server must add it if it is missing. The server must also add
the Injection-Date: header. Typically if the server adds both they'll be
identical, though I don't think that's guaranteed.

If you want to know whether your newsreader is setting the Date: field
or the server is adding it, the surest way to know is by empirical
testing. Use a server that doesn't mandate encryption (i.e., not Mixmin;
aioe should do nicely) and turn off encryption, then send an article
however you normally do while Wireshark is set up and running and
configured to capture NNTP traffic. Then you can inspect the actual
network packets your newsreader sent, and see whether or not it
generated a Date: header of left it up to the server to do so.

My guess, but I emphasize that it's a guess and only examining your
network traffic (or the source code, if available, for your newsreader)
can answer the question definitively, is that your particular newsreader
is not generating a date header, and that the time zone setting in it is
solely for deciding how to display dates *to* you in *downloaded* articles.

Per RFC1036 §2.1.2 "It is recommended that times in message headers be
transmitted in GMT and displayed in the local time zone," i.e. clients
may use a local time zone setting to display article dates in the local
time zone regardless of the original header value's time zone, for
instance by displaying 16:00 EDT as 13:00 PDT for a user on the West
Coast. So the existence of a time zone setting in your newsreader need
not mean that this determines the TZ of the Date: on an article you
*post* with it, or even whether the proto-article *has* a Date:.

I hope this answers your question as best as possible. Further answers
will, again, require examining your newsreader's source code and/or the
network traffic it generates, which means it's unlikely a server admin
here will be able to tell you anything new, except in the unlikely event
that one of them volunteers to watch the *inbound* traffic while you
post an article to tell you whether your client generated a
proto-article with or without a Date: header.

As for -0000 vs. +0000, the documentation I've read says to use -0000 to
indicate an unknown time zone, and +0000 to indicate a known offset of 0
from UTC. That means if an article's date is given in UTC the offset
should be +0000, not -0000, whether or not that's the author's local
time zone. Most likely -0000 is used by servers if a client sends a
Date: without specifying either an offset from UTC or a recognized time
zone name such as GYT.

HTH.

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate

[Mike Easter]

Henry Jones wrote:

>> The date header above should be generated from my local machine's timezone
>> setting (which is set to GMT -2 Mid Atlantic).
>

It appears to me that your clock is 'correctly' set to one hour west of
UTC, not two. Rather, I should say, your Date indicates one hour west
offset, not two, and a 'corresponding' localtime one hour earlier than UTC.

Your Date and mixmin's Injection:

Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:39:25 -0100

Injection-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 11:39:42 -0000 (UTC)


One hour west offset in the northern hemisphere's summertime is an
unusual local time setting.


--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:54:32 -0400, kensi wrote:

> Date: is a required header field, per RFC1036, which also recommends GMT
> (but should probably be UTC these days) for that field.

I know you, Kensi, to be reasonable, so I will comment upon your post, as I
see none of TOSEM's, although I'm sure they are there.

> RFC5537 clearly implies (in §3.4) that a proto-article (i.e., what you
> compose in a newsreader and click "send" on) may lack the Date: field,
> but states that this is a mandatory field in an injected article, which
> means the server must add it if it is missing.

Thank you for confirming that, and for supplying the terminology, that a
proto article may lack a date, but the injected article must have the date.

> The server must also add
> the Injection-Date: header. Typically if the server adds both they'll be
> identical, though I don't think that's guaranteed.

Interesting that the Injection Date is mandatory.
Odd. Many posts' headers do not contain an "Injection Date".
Does mine from Steve's server contain an Injection date?

> If you want to know whether your newsreader is setting the Date: field
> or the server is adding it, the surest way to know is by empirical
> testing.

Yup. Found that out.
Methinked that Pan did not set the Date & that 40tude dialog does.

> Use a server that doesn't mandate encryption (i.e., not Mixmin;
> aioe should do nicely) and turn off encryption, then send an article
> however you normally do while Wireshark is set up and running and
> configured to capture NNTP traffic. Then you can inspect the actual
> network packets your newsreader sent, and see whether or not it
> generated a Date: header of left it up to the server to do so.

I don't have Linux but if I did, I'd run tcpdump & wireshark.
On Windows, it's much harder because I don't have either running.

> My guess, but I emphasize that it's a guess and only examining your
> network traffic (or the source code, if available, for your newsreader)
> can answer the question definitively, is that your particular newsreader
> is not generating a date header, and that the time zone setting in it is
> solely for deciding how to display dates *to* you in *downloaded* articles.

I think you're correct for Pan, which does not seem to have any date
settings. For 40Tude Dialog, there are ways to change the date as needed.

> Per RFC1036 §2.1.2 "It is recommended that times in message headers be
> transmitted in GMT and displayed in the local time zone," i.e. clients
> may use a local time zone setting to display article dates in the local
> time zone regardless of the original header value's time zone, for
> instance by displaying 16:00 EDT as 13:00 PDT for a user on the West
> Coast.

Actually, this might be wrong.

I won't be the one to argue the point, but others argued that the "GMT"
(sans the parentheses) is not the current standard. It's legacy. But not
the current standard.

The current standard, I'm told, is to put whatever you want *inside*
parenthesis, e.g., "+0400 (GMT)".

> So the existence of a time zone setting in your newsreader need
> not mean that this determines the TZ of the Date: on an article you
> *post* with it, or even whether the proto-article *has* a Date:.

I'm not sure where you're saying that there is a timezone setting *in* the
newsreader. To my knowledge, none of the newsreaders I use have a timezone
setting. The operating system has a timezone setting. The newsreader seems
to know about that in the case of 40Tude Dialog, but not in the case of
Pan.

> I hope this answers your question as best as possible. Further answers
> will, again, require examining your newsreader's source code and/or the
> network traffic it generates, which means it's unlikely a server admin
> here will be able to tell you anything new, except in the unlikely event
> that one of them volunteers to watch the *inbound* traffic while you
> post an article to tell you whether your client generated a
> proto-article with or without a Date: header.

Actually, I just wanted to know from the server admins why they chose to
disply a +0000 or a -0000 when the proto article does not contain a date.

Strictly speaking, AIOE with a +0000 is indicating that the server is using
UTC as it's time zone (I think that's what the plus means), whereas Mixmin
with a -0000 is indicating that it's not necessarily in the UTC zone but
that it corrects the injection article to UTC time.

I'm really just asking server admins what their defaults are, although I
can tell what their defaults are by sending a proto article sans date - so
I'm really just asking "why" they chose the defaults that they chose.

> As for -0000 vs. +0000, the documentation I've read says to use -0000 to
> indicate an unknown time zone, and +0000 to indicate a known offset of 0
> from UTC. That means if an article's date is given in UTC the offset
> should be +0000, not -0000, whether or not that's the author's local
> time zone. Most likely -0000 is used by servers if a client sends a
> Date: without specifying either an offset from UTC or a recognized time
> zone name such as GYT.

I agree with you on the interpretation of the plus and minus, but in
practice, I can tell you experimentally that Netfront and Aioe use the +
sign as in "+0000 (UTC)", while Mixmin uses the minus sign as in "-0000
(UTC)" by default when the proto article does not contain header
information.

I'm just asking the respective admins why they chose the plus or the minus.

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 08:49:31 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> It appears to me that your clock is 'correctly' set to one hour west of
> UTC, not two. Rather, I should say, your Date indicates one hour west
> offset, not two, and a 'corresponding' localtime one hour earlier than UTC.

I agree that it *appears* that way because the injected header is:

Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:39:25 -0100

http://i.cubeupload.com/TnZp9W.gif

But the proto header was supposed to be -0200 because I set Windows XP to
be in the mid-atlantic time zone of "GMT - 02:00 Mid-Atlantic" simply by
clicking on the Windows Date and Time Properties.

Why GMT-2 shows up as UCT -1, I don't know.

> Your Date and mixmin's Injection:
> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:39:25 -0100
> Injection-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 11:39:42 -0000 (UTC)

Kensi kindly told me the first date is the "proto-article" date while the
second date is the "injected-article" date.

The first came from the news agent querying the operating system I guess,
while the second came from the news server itself.

> One hour west offset in the northern hemisphere's summertime is an
> unusual local time setting.

It was actually "GMT minus 2" from the Windows Date & Time Properties:
http://i.cubeupload.com/TnZp9W.gif

It was chosen to be a test TZ that would be obvious when it shows up in a
header (although I had expected -2 and not -1 from that Mid-Atlantic TZ).

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:22:19 +0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> hi seamus

That proves that you are TOSEM's sock.
plonk!

[Mike Easter]

Henry Jones wrote:
> Why GMT-2 shows up as UCT -1, I don't know.

That same function in WinXP also has:

Automatically adjust clock for daylight saving changes

That moved your clock 'forward'.

--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:21:47 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> That same function in WinXP also has:
>
> Automatically adjust clock for daylight saving changes
>
> That moved your clock 'forward'.

That makes too much sense!
:)

Thanks for clarifying.

[Adam H. Kerman]

You kill filed me? Again?

Promises, promises

[TOSEM]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote;
//

>Steve, it is not both. The abbreviations are obsolete but they are still
>standard. If both "+/- 4Digit" AND "virtually freeform text after it
>due to the obsolete formats" are used, that would be nonstandard. Please
>don't advise this, Steve.
>

exactly Adam..
... we(tinw) can expect somewhere on Usenet someone is going to now get
tangled in a "I am not Seamus -- my parenthesised comment tells you I am in
Godzilla Land, Seamus lives in Canada"...followed hotly by that same old
circular expansive " SYS Admins say different" shite.

>You're just adding confusion here and you're playing seamus's silly game.

In the past times I put Steve's comments as merely being overly liberal,,
as his sig file implies. Today the evidence is overwhelming - Steve hasn't
a fskn clue on just what a wolf amongst sheep can get up to... with the
t00Ls in good order. Nor do I today entertain any consideration Steve might
actually know what he 'talks' about.
Maybe he can read MAN.. an' that is about it,, hardly an authoritive t00L
for Usenet per se :-/

I acknowledge many of us(tinu) are well capable of pointing a nntp server
operation at Usenet. In some form I take comfort in that it is primarily
knob-heads who do provide these hopelessly undisciplined(rogue) pipes as
they do attract the chronic lame, corralling them all in one place and so
easily lampooned in sharing their master's voice.

I ( for one vocal) do appreciate your work in maintaining a stable
baseline to guide us(tinu) Adam. I acknowledge we (U an' eye) do not
always agree on all issues but that in itself builds a healthy respect in
reading a poster who has got a full grip on "how it works".

cheers..

[TOSEM]

Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using

puppet>kensi <kkensi...@gmail.invalid> wrote;
>On 04/07/2016 4:53 PM, Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using

>puppet>Henry Jones wrote:
>> This is a courtesy message to TOSEM, and as such, can be ignored by
>> everyone else.
>>

exception being yer puppetmaster.. hey hey

/LOFL

>> I know you to be a class A troll,
>

cite?

>Oh, he's a lot more than a mere troll; like L. Ron Hubbard he bought his
>own publicity eventually and became a full-blown kOok.
>

..says a full blown certified k00k.

>> but since you're the only one who responded, and, since your response
>> does not appear to be a troll, in and of itself, I will courteously
>> respond accurately and completely to your question (since I am entering
>> you into my killfile as soon as I send this out).
>

Paul - gibbus a break FFS.
Filters within that POS yew boot up to post with are beyond yer skills to
script in..!

.snortles

>Futile, especially if you tell him you're doing it. He'll morph and/or
>spawn a fresh sockpuppet.
>

err..
follow yer example Paul..?
not likely.. yew just do not rank the effort these days. Your schtick well
recognised by more than enough Netizens.

[caveat] -- IF I did employ a sock (n0t a new persona, engroupe) it is fact
YOU would never know, either technically nor in prose.
Yer a brass band of tuba and bass drum only.. heh [guffaw]

[Nadegda]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2016 07:05:50 +1000, TOSEM (Pie Gurl) P...@yahoo.com WINNER

- Kook of the Year 2012 wrote:

> kensi <kkensi...@gmail.invalid> wrote;

>>On 04/07/2016 4:53 PM, Henry Jones wrote:
[paranoia in attribs denied]

>>> This is a courtesy message to TOSEM, and as such, can be ignored by
>>> everyone else.
>
> exception being yer puppetmaster.. hey hey
>
> /LOFL
>
>>> I know you to be a class A troll,
>
> cite?

The citations for that one would fill an encyclopedia, kook.

>>Oh, he's a lot more than a mere troll; like L. Ron Hubbard he bought his
>>own publicity eventually and became a full-blown kOok.
>
> ..says a full blown certified k00k.

... says 2012's Kook of the Year.

>>> but since you're the only one who responded, and, since your response
>>> does not appear to be a troll, in and of itself, I will courteously
>>> respond accurately and completely to your question (since I am
>>> entering you into my killfile as soon as I send this out).
>
> Paul - gibbus a break FFS.
> Filters within that POS yew boot up to post with are beyond yer skills
> to script in..!
>
> .snortles

Delusions noted.

>>Futile, especially if you tell him you're doing it. He'll morph and/or
>>spawn a fresh sockpuppet.
>
> err..
> follow yer example Paul..?
> not likely.. yew just do not rank the effort these days. Your schtick
> well recognised by more than enough Netizens.
>
> [caveat] -- IF I did employ a sock (n0t a new persona, engroupe) it is
> fact YOU would never know, either technically nor in prose.

So confident are you? Yet every single one of your past socks was
identified within 23 seconds of its birth. They all have the same kooky
online "speech impediment". The one you won Goofy Azzed Babboon for.

<snicker>

> Yer a brass band of tuba and bass drum only.. heh [guffaw]

... says the kook who has won every lifetime achievement kook award
except for the bobo and shows every sign (knife threats, RL stalking
activities) of eventually getting up the gumption to win that one too,
for fuck's sake.

[TOSEM]

Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using

puppet>Nadegda <nad31...@gmail.invalid> wrote;
>On Wed, 06 Jul 2016 07:05:50 +1000, TOSEM wrote:
>
//

>>>On 04/07/2016 4:53 PM, Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using
>>>puppet>Henry Jones wrote:

[fukwittery in attrib editing deleted]

>>>> This is a courtesy message to TOSEM, and as such, can be ignored by
>>>> everyone else.
>>
>> exception being yer puppetmaster.. hey hey
>>
>> /LOFL

^^^^^^^

.. musta woke the t/h/urd puppet up.!???[rhet]

Not able to config in setting filters for your puppets, Paul.. err Henry?
Yer as predictable as brown nuggets post a saltwater enema.. FFS :--D

>>
[...]

>... says the kook who has won every lifetime achievement kook award
>except for the bobo and shows every sign (knife threats, RL stalking
>activities) of eventually getting up the gumption to win that one too,
>for fuck's sake.

yer claims Derbyshire are as hollow as that absented web site for k00k
awards, the one you wish you could sponsor and build. Do be providing an
unbroken URL for ANY web page citing your claims in peer review.

/snortles

[Henry Jones]

Steve, I found more information by running a few tests.

While Pan didn't seem to be inserting a date in the proto article, 40Tude
does seem to be inserting a date in the proto article.

Given we know that if no date is sent in the proto article, the newsservers
inject a *default* date of the format:
Test 1. AIOE Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:10:11 +0000 (UTC)
Test 2. Netfront Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:10:11 +0000 (UTC)
Test 3. Mixmin Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:10:11 -0000 (UTC)

The descrepancy above with Aioe and Netfront is odd, given that the
negative 0000 of Mixmin just indicates GMT time (and says nothing about
where the newsserver equipment is actually located), while the plus 0000
indicates (literally) that the machine who set the date is (literally) in
the GMT (which is probably an untruth in the case of aioe and netfront).

So basically, what the headers say above is that:
Test 1. Aioe is located *in* the GMT TZ
Test 2. Netfront is located *in* the GMT TZ.
Test 3. Mixmin is *not* located in the GMT TZ.

Here is the result of a further experiment of setting the local TZ to GMT
and allowing the newsserver to send that GMT date header to the newsserver.

Note that I had *expected* Mixmin to show -0000 but it showed +0000!

Local time set to GMT & the date header supplied in the proto article:
Test 4. AIOE Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:10:11 +0000
Test 5. Netfront Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:10:11 +0000
Test 6. Mixmin Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:10:11 +0000

I guess that makes sense though, because what the proto header told the
news server is that the TZ *was* GMT, so, the newsservers are dutifully
reporting that the sender is *in* the GMT (with the use of the plus sign).

So the only things that do not make sense is why the aioe and netfront
newsservers use a plus sign when they inject their own date header.

It seems only the mixmin server is configured properly.
(Either that, or the aioe and netfront servers are actually *in* the GMT
time zone.)

[Henry Jones]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:55:12 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones wrote:

> It seems only the mixmin server is configured properly.
> (Either that, or the aioe and netfront servers are actually *in* the GMT
> time zone.)

I was hoping I could type the "date" command once telneted into those three
servers, but they all seem to have the exact same date.

1. telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
date
111 20160706043018

2. telnet news.netfront.net 119
date
111 20160706043034

3. telnet news.mixmin.net 119
date
111 20160706043059

[Henry Jones]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:06:40 +0530, Henry Jones wrote:

> I was hoping I could type the "date" command once telneted into those three
> servers, but they all seem to have the exact same date.
>
> 1. telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
> date
> 111 20160706043018
>
> 2. telnet news.netfront.net 119
> date
> 111 20160706043034
>
> 3. telnet news.mixmin.net 119
> date
> 111 20160706043059

Dizum seems to be in a different time zone though:

telnet news.dizum.net 119
200 sewer InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.3 ready (no posting)
date
111 20160706042020

So, dizum seems about an hour behind the other news servers above.

[Steve Crook]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 02:55:12 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones wrote in
Message-Id: <nlhruf$7sc$1...@news.mixmin.net>:

The discrepancy between servers is almost certainly due to the INN
version they're running. Mixmin is frequently updated against the
development branch while (I expect) the others are running a stable
release. You can view the relevent code for INN here:-
https://inn.eyrie.org/trac/browser/trunk/lib/date.c
Look for the function: parsedate_rfc5322_lax

The text on the last change to this file reads:-

"Use -0000 instead of +0000 as the time zone in generated headers not at
Universal Time nnrpd now uses -0000 as the time zone for Date: and
Injection-Date: header fields it generates. It was previously using
+0000, wrongly systematically indicating a local time zone at Universal
Time when the localtime paramater is set to false (which is the default)
in readers.conf. The +0000 time zone will now be used only if localtime
is set to true and UTC is really the local time zone of the server.
Improve the documentation of readers.conf, mentioning a use case for the
localtime parameter. Thanks to Russ for it. convdate now similarly also
uses -0000."

The server (by default) adds a Date header in UTC but it can be
configured to use localtime instead. In my case that would be confusing
as the server runs GMT/BST to match my local time, not that of its
location.

[kensi]

On 05/07/2016 12:50 PM, Henry Jones wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:54:32 -0400, kensi wrote:
>
>> Date: is a required header field, per RFC1036, which also recommends GMT
>> (but should probably be UTC these days) for that field.
>
> I know you, Kensi, to be reasonable, so I will comment upon your post, as I
> see none of TOSEM's, although I'm sure they are there.

Oh, they are. He's bubbling and frothing mightily. He's really got a bee
in his bonnet about you, because he is, most likely, a
clinically-diagnosable paranoiac.

>> RFC5537 clearly implies (in §3.4) that a proto-article (i.e., what you
>> compose in a newsreader and click "send" on) may lack the Date: field,
>> but states that this is a mandatory field in an injected article, which
>> means the server must add it if it is missing.
>
> Thank you for confirming that, and for supplying the terminology, that a
> proto article may lack a date, but the injected article must have the date.

You're welcome.

>> The server must also add
>> the Injection-Date: header. Typically if the server adds both they'll be
>> identical, though I don't think that's guaranteed.
>
> Interesting that the Injection Date is mandatory.
> Odd. Many posts' headers do not contain an "Injection Date".
> Does mine from Steve's server contain an Injection date?

Yep. Injection-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 16:50:58 -0000 (UTC)

Older posts and ones from servers running older software may lack that
header because it was added to the standard relatively recently. Prior
to that dates might be buried in Injection-Info:, or put in headers with
names like NNTP-Posting-Date: and X-NNTP-Posting-Date:, but it was such
a common practice to add some such information to article headers that
they decided to standardize the format for doing so, and Injection-Date:
was born.

>> If you want to know whether your newsreader is setting the Date: field
>> or the server is adding it, the surest way to know is by empirical
>> testing.
>
> Yup. Found that out.
> Methinked that Pan did not set the Date & that 40tude dialog does.

That's what the data seems to indicate at this point.

> I don't have Linux but if I did, I'd run tcpdump & wireshark.
> On Windows, it's much harder because I don't have either running.

Wireshark *is* available for Windows.

> I'm not sure where you're saying that there is a timezone setting *in* the
> newsreader. To my knowledge, none of the newsreaders I use have a timezone
> setting. The operating system has a timezone setting. The newsreader seems
> to know about that in the case of 40Tude Dialog, but not in the case of
> Pan.

No? That's surprising. I'd have thought any newsreader considered
half-decent would use it to at least present a tidy report of article
dates in the UI's article list. So it would list something like

Subject Author 1 3:17 PM
Re: Subject Author 2 4:42 PM
Re: Subject Author 1 5:01 PM
Re: Subject Author 3 3:45 PM

rather than something like

Subject Author 1 15:17 -0500
Re: Subject Author 2 14:42 -0700
Re: Subject Author 1 17:01 -0500
Re: Subject Author 3 21:45 +0100

when the posters are scattered all over the planet. The first display
makes it much easier to see the relative timings of the posts, while the
second is what you'd get just displaying the Date: or Injection-Date:
header times without any prettification by the reader's UI. Of course, a
reader could just conform all the times to some fixed TZ such as UTC but
the norm, I'm given to understand, is to conform them to the user's
local TZ if possible.

You're saying Pan *doesn't* do that?

> Actually, I just wanted to know from the server admins why they chose to
> disply a +0000 or a -0000 when the proto article does not contain a date.

Well, it seems Steve Crook answered that with the information he posted
about different inn versions.

[Mike Easter]

kensi wrote:
> Of course, a reader could just conform all the times to some fixed
> TZ such as UTC but the norm, I'm given to understand, is to conform
> them to the user's local TZ if possible.
>
> You're saying Pan *doesn't* do that?

Pan displays the thread pane times in the user's localtime, like Tb and
others.

But it is the only agent I know which doesn't send a Date header, in the
current versions. From old release notes one might infer that older Pan
versions /did/ send a Date header.

--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Steve Crook wrote:

> The discrepancy between servers is almost certainly due to the INN
> version they're running. Mixmin is frequently updated against the
> development branch while (I expect) the others are running a stable
> release. You can view the relevent code for INN here:-
> https://inn.eyrie.org/trac/browser/trunk/lib/date.c
> Look for the function: parsedate_rfc5322_lax

Steve, thank you again for your helpful advice, and I apologize for the
others such as TOSEM (who I have in my killfile but who I'm sure is all
over this accusing me of being everyone he hates for whatever reasons).

You'll note that I always stay on topic and try to get the question
answered, and that I add value - but you may also notice that I'm not as
technical as anyone here - so I may ask questions that seem to have obvious
answers to you.

I ran a quick survey from Windows (finally installing Putty which is far
better than the Windows telnet for copying output!) of what the news
servers are using which you may find helpful:

1. news.mixmin.net:563[SSL] blank/blank
200 news.mixmin.net InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.7.0 (20160520
prerelease) ready (posting ok)
2. news.dizum.net:119 blank/blank

200 sewer InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.3 ready (no posting)

3. nntp.aioe.org:119 blank/blank
200 nntp.aioe.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.4 ready (posting ok)
4. news.mozilla.org:119 blank/blank
200 news.mozilla.org
5. freenews.netfront.net:119 blank/blank
200 news.netfront.net InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.4.6 (20090602
snapshot) ready (posting ok).
6. news.gmane.org:119 blank/blank
200 news.gmane.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.1 ready (posting ok)
7. reader.albasani.net:119 login/passwd
200 news.albasani.net InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.3 (20110312
prerelease) ready (no posting)
8. nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com:119 login/passwd
200 nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com NNTPSwitch-0.12-BWH, 76810 groups
available, posting allowed, slot 1, connections 1
9. news.solani.org:119 login/passwd
200 news.solani.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.2 ready (no
posting)
10. news.eternal-september.org:119 login/passwd
200 news.eternal-september.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.7.0
(20160704 snapshot) ready (posting ok)
11. reader.news4all.se:119 login/passwd
???
12. news.sunsite.dk:119 login/passwd
200 news.sunsite.dk NNRP Service Ready - st...@sunsite.dk (posting ok).
13. news.giganews.com:119 login/passwd
200 News.GigaNews.Com
14. news.newsdemon.com:119 login/passwd
200 Welcome (fx28.fr7)

[TOSEM]

Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote;

//

>You'll note that I always stay on topic and try to get the question
>answered, and that I add value

ewe have run this line into the ground also Paul,, as recently as your
dance in <a.o.l> using "VPNuser".

it aint working.
as relevance I repeat what was put to ewe in :
<nlk05l$h9n$1...@dont-email.me>
Are you truly too stupid to be unaware of this fact?

and more,, the continued utterances(mumbles) in hope of discrediting
well known and respected members of this froup - and others - merely
underlines your level of stupidity - bringing down those who would feed
your pathetic lack of Usenet awareness.

--
<n.s.r> added
fup set <a.i>

[Henry Jones]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Steve Crook wrote:

> The discrepancy between servers is almost certainly due to the INN
> version they're running. Mixmin is frequently updated against the
> development branch while (I expect) the others are running a stable
> release. You can view the relevent code for INN here:-
> https://inn.eyrie.org/trac/browser/trunk/lib/date.c
> Look for the function: parsedate_rfc5322_lax
>
> The text on the last change to this file reads:-
>
> "Use -0000 instead of +0000 as the time zone in generated headers not at
> Universal Time nnrpd now uses -0000 as the time zone for Date: and
> Injection-Date: header fields it generates. It was previously using
> +0000, wrongly systematically indicating a local time zone at Universal
> Time when the localtime paramater is set to false (which is the default)
> in readers.conf. The +0000 time zone will now be used only if localtime
> is set to true and UTC is really the local time zone of the server.
> Improve the documentation of readers.conf, mentioning a use case for the
> localtime parameter. Thanks to Russ for it. convdate now similarly also
> uses -0000."
>
> The server (by default) adds a Date header in UTC but it can be
> configured to use localtime instead. In my case that would be confusing
> as the server runs GMT/BST to match my local time, not that of its
> location.

Thanks Steve for explaining that the latest INN versions probably use -0000
and the earlier ones probably use +0000 (which answers the original
question!).

The operative sentence is:

"The +0000 time zone will now be used only if localtime
is set to true and UTC is really the local time zone of the server."

Your answer explained everything.
Thanks.

[Nadegda]

On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 11:46:30 +1000, TOSEM (Pie Gurl) P...@yahoo.com WINNER

- Kook of the Year 2012 wrote:

> Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote;
>
> //
>
>>You'll note that I always stay on topic and try to get the question
>>answered, and that I add value
>
> ewe have run this line into the ground also Paul,,

Proof that Jones is Paul, kook?

> as recently as your dance in <a.o.l> using "VPNuser".

Proof that VPNuser is Paul, kook?

> it aint working.
> as relevance I repeat what was put to ewe in :
> <nlk05l$h9n$1...@dont-email.me>
> Are you truly too stupid to be unaware of this fact?
>
> and more,, the continued utterances(mumbles) in hope of discrediting
> well known and respected members of this froup - and others - merely
> underlines your level of stupidity - bringing down those who would feed
> your pathetic lack of Usenet awareness.

You have a kooky notion of who constitute "well known and respected
members of this froup" if you consider yourself to be one and Steve Crook
and Mike Easter *not* to be.

I'm pretty sure the *actual* "well known and respected members" know who
here is well known and respected and who here is a frothing, illucid,
semi-literate paranoid lunatic with delusions of adequacy.

<snicker>

[Henry Jones]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:52:25 -0400, kensi wrote:

> Subject Author 1 3:17 PM
> Re: Subject Author 2 4:42 PM
> Re: Subject Author 1 5:01 PM
> Re: Subject Author 3 3:45 PM
>
> rather than something like
>
> Subject Author 1 15:17 -0500
> Re: Subject Author 2 14:42 -0700
> Re: Subject Author 1 17:01 -0500
> Re: Subject Author 3 21:45 +0100
>
> when the posters are scattered all over the planet. The first display
> makes it much easier to see the relative timings of the posts, while the
> second is what you'd get just displaying the Date: or Injection-Date:
> header times without any prettification by the reader's UI. Of course, a
> reader could just conform all the times to some fixed TZ such as UTC but
> the norm, I'm given to understand, is to conform them to the user's
> local TZ if possible.
>
> You're saying Pan *doesn't* do that?

You're talking about something else.
There are two different dates in any newsreader.
1. The date in the message header (which has an offset)
2. The date in the message when displayed by the newsreader (no offset)

Pan doesn't send out the date header, but Pan displays the dates perfectly
when when listing incoming messages.

> Well, it seems Steve Crook answered that with the information he posted
> about different inn versions.

Yup. Steve answered that the answer is basically that older INN server
versions use +0000 where newer ones recently switched to -0000. It's really
as simple as that, but we didn't know it.

[Henry Jones]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 01:56:00 -0000 (UTC), Nadegda wrote:

>> ewe have run this line into the ground also Paul,,
>
> Proof that Jones is Paul, kook?

I don't see anything from TOSEM except when you quote it, but TOSEM is a
classic troll who just loves to create an argument where none exist.

As such I suggest you stop feeding him.
I will not respond further in this thread.

[Jolly Roger]

He'll change his nym now and start a new thread. ; )

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[TOSEM]

Paul G Derbyshire [aka] Seamus McRae - using

puppet>Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote;
>On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 01:56:00 -0000 (UTC), Paul G Derbyshire
>[aka] Seamus McRae - using puppet>Nadegda wrote:
>
//

>I don't see anything from TOSEM except when you quote it,

heh... that is exactly the projected ideal, hey Paul....
yer fskn tissue thin twat.

>but TOSEM is a classic troll
>

..hardly "classic".."professional" yep[3]... and way better at it than yew
will ever be Paul.

> than who just loves to create an argument where none exist.
>
nope... yer got the bull by the tit, again..Paul :-}

one trigger is exactly you starting sh!te which prompts posters to
bust their nuts feeding you info - reducing them to your level of
stupidity.
some will even play that round in circles.. telling you over and over...
you **and they** ARE that thick.
buuuut not happy with that silliness you cast yet more bait... dickhead :-/

>As such I suggest you stop feeding him.
>I will not respond further in this thread.
>

oH yes you will.. ewe aint "WINNING FOR F*CK SAKE"[1].. the silence as
dudes wake up and blink "wtf I been Seamused..!" is deafening :-}

the very fact you are now driven to support yerself in socks is
the known 'tell' for your expansion of any line of bullsh!te you run, Paul.
Run 'em out Paul... show us(tiau) all yer new shiny toys..FFS !

/snortles

[lightbulb]
hey.. tosser...now yer back in Japan/Asia shouldn't ewe be giving that
anime puppet a run,, you noe...that fast disappearing 'buddy' Kazumi[2]??
0r is that too far back in yer attention span to dredge up..? hahahhaa

chomp that down... luz3r :->>>>>>>>

/tick /tick /tick


[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyBYSuqQBQ
[2] Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net>
[3] see "From"

[TOSEM]

[update]

TOSEM <7he0ther5ide0f3...@derbyshire.kooks.out.example.invalid>
wrote;

[crickets]

>
>[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyBYSuqQBQ
>[2] Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net>
>[3] see "From"

--

<n.s.r> added for posterity
fup set <a.f.n>

[TOSEM]

snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote;
>[xposted: afn, +auk, +afc; fu2: auk]

>I observe that kensi displays an admirable knowledge of the
>intricacies of NNTP, considering that she's a NewsTap user.
>I wonder how she found the time to research all that stuff,
>being an astrophysics professor and all.
>

Oh... too easy,, rlly :--D
..
.. like all professionals Paul has read about,,, Paul asked his 'straight'
sock... the veritable G00gler of all things digital[pun]
<nlkodg$aj0$1...@dont-email.me>
THAT, as per the "spit swap" above,,, is all g00gle.Rhap'd and
reconstituted as his own work :-/

As Adam pstd {paraphrased)... all nonsense around a non issue
raised purely for airtime.

>I admire great intellects, could I possibly have misjudged her?
>
errr... if you thought that was a telescope 'she' had tucked into 'her'
suspender belt....?
hell yeh.. :--------------D

That said... Paul has about as much experience on "up periscope"
as that "Virgin Mary" character in the Three Wise Men story.

--

[psssst]. do please flick me an email to <n0tscaramouche @ hushmail.com>
when you get a minute spare.