Logging Estimates
Stonepuppet
logged in New England. Where would the best place to be to get fair
estimates on the value of the wood logged ?
It's through a forestry association, but someone told me I should get quotes
directly from the logger ?
Thanks
Joe Zorzin
Never sell directly to a logger. Never base value on what a logger tells
you. HIRE A FORESTER. But, I don't mean a forester who works for a sawmill
or logging firm- I mean a consulting forester.
The forester will mark the timber based on the science of silviculture and
the science of forestry economics. He/she will tally the timber, then carry
out a "timber showing", then receive bids from all loggers and mills in the
region, he'll prepare a contract in your interest, prepare any required
state or local impact reports (cutting plans), hold a performance bond, etc.
If you don't know any consulting foresters, call up your state forestry
agency and ask for a list of consulting foresters.
Preferably, retain one who is a member of the Forest Steward's Guild. Go to
the Guild's web site at http://foreststewardsguild.org/ and you can find a
list of foresters for your state.
--
*************
Joe Zorzin
http://www.forestmeister.com
"Stonepuppet" <plea...@ingroup.com> wrote in message
news:9cssc.24837$zO3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Larry Harrell
> Never sell directly to a logger. Never base value on what a logger tells
> you. HIRE A FORESTER. But, I don't mean a forester who works for a sawmill
> or logging firm- I mean a consulting forester.
>
> The forester will mark the timber based on the science of silviculture and
> the science of forestry economics. He/she will tally the timber, then carry
> out a "timber showing", then receive bids from all loggers and mills in the
> region, he'll prepare a contract in your interest, prepare any required
> state or local impact reports (cutting plans), hold a performance bond, etc.
>
> If you don't know any consulting foresters, call up your state forestry
> agency and ask for a list of consulting foresters.
>
> Preferably, retain one who is a member of the Forest Steward's Guild. Go to
> the Guild's web site at http://foreststewardsguild.org/ and you can find a
> list of foresters for your state.
>
> --
> *************
> Joe Zorzin
> http://www.forestmeister.com
>
>
Nice "commercial", Joe <G>! Actually, you left out the push for
"profitting from good silviculture, near AND longterm".
New bumper sticker I just made up: "Eco-Forestry
Rocks!...Economically"
Larry, Eco-Forestry Technician
mhagen
Hey, that's all good stuff. Wait till you have to hunt the wily client.
The consultants on this list are pretty reserved about advertising
themselves. If we can do it "in line" with a pertinent answer, so much
the better. That's not spamming. The guy who periodically advertises
his books (Dr. S.), now that's spam. This group is pretty clean
compared to what's happened to the old agroforestry group.
Stonepuppet
But how to i know, even though he shopped around for the best bid, he
doesn't pocket the ensuing profits all himself and not pass them along ?
"Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
news:10b6crq...@corp.supernews.com...
>
dstaples
> I believe the person I'm using right now is a forester.
>
> But how to i know, even though he shopped around for the best bid, he
> doesn't pocket the ensuing profits all himself and not pass them along ?
>
>
extent, the job you get. Find a forester from one of the accredited
universities, with association to one of the forestry groups. Make sure he
is an independent forester. Do as Joe suggests and call your state
foresters.
You believe he is a forester? Check his credentials, find out if he is
independent or working for a mill or logger. Ask for references of previous
clients.
Just like lawyers, doctors, and Indian chiefs, forestry has a few bad eggs.
Joe Zorzin
"Stonepuppet" <plea...@ingroup.com> wrote in message
news:1ZNyc.7419$Y3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I believe the person I'm using right now is a forester.
>
> But how to i know, even though he shopped around for the best bid, he
> doesn't pocket the ensuing profits all himself and not pass them along ?
You don't want him to shop for the best bid- you want him to put the timber
out to bid so that others can bid on the timber he decides should be cut
based on good silviculture. If he's shopping for best prices on logs, most
likely he's a forester who wants to market the logs himself- and although
that's one way to go, it's not the safest way to go.
Here in western Mass., whenever I've seen a consulting forester attempt to
get involved with marketing the logs- they usually screw up and the owner
gets the short end of the stick.
Again, be sure the guy is an independant forester- not working for a mill
and not being too close to any one mill- sometimes that happens and that's a
danger sign. Don't tell the guy you want to maximize the timber at the
expense of the woodlot or he'll creme the place. You should want the job to
be good forestry- that is, trees that should be cut will be cut and trees
that shouldn't be cut won't be cut in order to allow the forest to recover
and be productive for the future. If you leave some good trees, that won't
hurt the sale price that much. And, if you later want to sell the property,
having left some good trees, a competant forester can appraise the value of
the timber that is left, so that you can factor that in to your the price
you ask for the property. And, if the job is done right, the place will look
much better- it will be far more productive in the future, it will be better
ecology- better for wildlife- better aesthetics- better for watershed
protection- and you'll earn a lot of good karma. <G>
If you haven't yet signed a contract with your forester, you can always let
him go. You want him to mark and tally the trees- then put the sale out to
bid to all possible buyers- at the showing he should present a contract that
serves your interest, not his- and he should be involved with overseeing the
harvest and holding a bond.
Joe
Stonepuppet
"Joe Zorzin" <abc@xyz> wrote in message
>
>
>> news:1ZNyc.7419$Y3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
This has become a bit confusing. He did say he was an independent Forester,
and they use "Log-Pro" to market the logs prepacked the way the mills want
them somehow, so they get better bids for them this way.
In 2002, I got estimates on 3 different levels, and since i was planning on
selling the property with home fairly soon, I opted for the greater cut for
X amount. Now I assumed since the market was better and there has been a 2
year growth the X dollar amount would be greater. But on getting the papers,
I noticed the wood MBF and cord amounts didn't tally with the 2002 figures.
When I brought up this up to him, he at first seemed a little
uncomfortable, then said was aiming for the same X dollar amount and a
lesser cut, and that the cut I opted for in 2002 would have been in so many
words... ghastly. He did not mention it would have been a "ghastly" cut in
02 at all, just the maximum cut under the forestry plan.
Is something funny here, was he saving face for the discrepancies,or does
this sound like something that would ordinarily be done ?
2002 white pine 100 MBF in 2004 218
2002 hemlock 1 mbf in 2004 50
2002 red pine, 1 mbf in 2004 0
2002 spruce fir 1 mbf in 2004 1
2002 hard maple, 1 mbf in 2004 1
2002 white birch 17 mbf in 2004 20 mbf
2002 oak 37 mbf in 2004 80 mbf
2002 ash 10 mbf in 2004 10 mbf
2002 beech and soft maple 15 mbf in 2004 15 mbf
pulpwood
2002 spruce and fir 2 cords /2004 1 cord
2002 hardwood and aspen 495 cords /2004 200 cords
2002 pine 100 cords /2004 100 cords
2002 hemlock 2 cords /2004 50 cords
for the same X dollar amount as in 02.
Appreciate the help, Thanks
Joe Zorzin
"Stonepuppet" <plea...@ingroup.com> wrote in message
news:%QoAc.15684$Y3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
I never heard of such a system, in 30 years of practicing forestry in Mass.
If you give the guy's name I'll investigate to find out if he's really
independant or a front for some logger or mill. The forester, most of the
time, shouldn't be marketing logs- he should be marketing the "stumpage"
which is the trees still in the woods. It's best to market the standing
trees. Some truly independant foresters attempt to market logs too- they'll
hire a logger, and maybe a trucker and try to sell the logs themselves- in
theory this could get a better price for the owner- in reality, it usually
gets less as the forester, unless he's done this a lot, is likely to mess
up. The odds are he's a front for some logging firm or a mill.
>
> In 2002, I got estimates on 3 different levels, and since i was planning
on
> selling the property with home fairly soon, I opted for the greater cut
for
> X amount.
Bad option- that gives the logger or forester the idea that you want the
forest massacred- which isn't in your interest because if they do massacre
it- it will look like hell and hurt the real estate value. Better to do a
nice harvest with good silviculture, leaving good "growing stock"- then when
you sell, your forester should be able to document the value of the trees
left in the woods and you can attempt to factor that into the sale of the
property.
> Now I assumed since the market was better and there has been a 2
> year growth the X dollar amount would be greater. But on getting the
papers,
> I noticed the wood MBF and cord amounts didn't tally with the 2002
figures.
> When I brought up this up to him, he at first seemed a little
> uncomfortable, then said was aiming for the same X dollar amount and a
> lesser cut, and that the cut I opted for in 2002 would have been in so
many
> words... ghastly. He did not mention it would have been a "ghastly" cut
in
> 02 at all, just the maximum cut under the forestry plan.
This so called forester doesn't sound like a real forester to me- he should
be encouraging you to do real forestry- good harvesting- then he should put
the trees out to bid, not the logs- to all possible buyers in the region-
maximizing the price that way- and supervising the harvest- and holding a
bond- and writing a great contract for you. This guy sounds like he's
working for a logging firm or mill- which I've now said several times. <G>
>
> Is something funny here, was he saving face for the discrepancies,or does
> this sound like something that would ordinarily be done ?
If he's offering you prices, he isn't a forester- he's a logger. Does this
guy have a forester's license? Ask him that. I may suggest to an owner that
prices are in a certain range but I can't give the precise prices because
I'm not in the wood business, like this guy apparently is.
You might like to call the state Dept. of Conservation and Recreation and
ask to talk to the "service forester". Ask if this guy is a licensed
forester and if he's really independant or working for some logging firm or
a mill. If it's the latter, dump the guy. If you haven't signed a contract
you owe him nothing. Then start over- and when you do, look for an
independant forester who will-
- mark the timber based on good silviculture and long term economics, don't
say you want to maximize the short term profit
- he'll then provide you with a spreadsheet analysis of what's been marked
- he'll then have a timber showing- showing the timber to at least several
wood buyers
- he'll prepare a contract for you and a state cutting plan
- he'll hold a bond to ensure that the work is performed according to the
contract
- he'll supervise the harvest
If you are in Mass., you can give me a call at 413-655-8183 and we can talk
some more about this. I may know the forester- or I may be able to recommend
someone else. If you try to email me directly from here, it won't work as I
set up a false email address to use in the newsgroups to avoid getting on
spam lists. You could get my true email address by going to my web site.
mhagen
were made using different goals and during different markets. ANY market
oriented cruise is a one shot deal. Even using a grid system and
rigorous quality control repeated cruises of the same parcel will yield
different results - but within a narrow statistical range depending on
the sampling intensity. In sampling, as in most things, you get only
what you pay for.
If the forester cruised in this way, he would also have produced a stand
map which would be a pretty accurate portrayal of your property. From
what I've seen locally, most self labeled "foresters" only do a walk
through and a rough estimate since they actually plan on having the
timber scaled (another good idea if your timber volume is valuable!).
Mike H.
Joe Zorzin
> To be fair, the two estimates may not have anything in common since they
> were made using different goals and during different markets. ANY market
> oriented cruise is a one shot deal. Even using a grid system and
> rigorous quality control repeated cruises of the same parcel will yield
> different results - but within a narrow statistical range depending on
> the sampling intensity. In sampling, as in most things, you get only
> what you pay for.
>
> If the forester cruised in this way, he would also have produced a stand
> map which would be a pretty accurate portrayal of your property. From
> what I've seen locally, most self labeled "foresters" only do a walk
> through and a rough estimate since they actually plan on having the
> timber scaled (another good idea if your timber volume is valuable!).
> Mike H.
But, the timber should be marked- if not marked, the property will surely be
butchered. In the west, it may be that good foresters only cruise the stand-
since the silviculture is simpler- here, with so many different species and
trees of such differences in quality, the stand really should be marked. If
not marked, there is no control over what will happen and the owner will get
ripped off.
In this case, the so called forester has made no effort to get full payment
for the owner, before the job starts- that's the only reputable way- to
insure that the owner won't get robbed blind.
Joe
Stonepuppet
> To be fair, the two estimates may not have anything in common since they
> were made using different goals and during different markets. ANY market
> oriented cruise is a one shot deal. Even using a grid system and
> rigorous quality control repeated cruises of the same parcel will yield
> different results - but within a narrow statistical range depending on
> the sampling intensity. In sampling, as in most things, you get only
> what you pay for.
>
> If the forester cruised in this way, he would also have produced a stand
> map which would be a pretty accurate portrayal of your property. From
> what I've seen locally, most self labeled "foresters" only do a walk
> through and a rough estimate since they actually plan on having the
> timber scaled (another good idea if your timber volume is valuable!).
> Mike H.
Mike,
I'm sorry... but some of the language you used I don't understand. "even
using a grid system".. or
having the timber "scaled".... I'm a complete newbie to this.
What the forester explained to me, was he has his own subsidiary called
"Log-Pro" that markets the timber. But he had not marked the trees nor even
mentioned marking the trees until i brought it up to him myself. Then he
said "of course we mark the trees"... but he had already wanted to park the
cutting equipment here before the contracts were even signed.. I asked why
and he said otherwise they would have to park them at "his office"
somewhere... which led me to believe perhaps the logger is his too ? or very
close to his company.
Someone told me i should have the trees marked and get "bids" ..that this
sometimes brings 2.5 the price of another method. The forester said he
doesn't get bids, but markets through log pro to various mills. But he did
offer to get me 4 bids somehow ? I get the feeling theyre the same mills
though, because he mentioned the prices having changed, because white
hemlock or pine or something changed its offered price at "X" company. And
that he made the decision to leave more trees standing than decided on in
02. I guess i would have felt more comfortable had he let me know this. And
if i had an idea of just how many trees really would have been cut each
time, rather than just seeing a rough estimate on paper.
Obviously this is an important decision to me, I thank you for the help.
Genna
mhagen
Maybe you should go to the local library and look for a landowner
oriented forestry book. Here are two good ones:
The Forest and the Trees; Gordon Robinson, 1988, Island Press.
Working with your Woodland, A landowners Guide; Mollie Beatty, Charles
Thompson, Lynn Levine, 1983/1993, University Press of New England.
Also check to see if any Forest Stewards Guild members are in your
state. The SAF is also a good start - look for foresters with small
sales and inventory experience.
You should not only require a Forester to get you several bids on this,
it seems you should ask for proposals from several Foresters. This one
sounds like he's the manager, the logger, the buyer and the seller.
I was mentioning standard methods of determining the timber volumes and
quality on a parcel. One has two major choices: measure the wood before
its cut or after. When done beforehand, it's called an inventory or on
the west coast, a timber cruise. This is a statistically valid estimate
of the amount of timber in all the local sorts and grades.
The second option is measuring the timber after cutting. This is called
log scaling and is done by an independent third party at a Scale
station. If you have a scaling bureau near you it's a possibility, if
not a second cruise to check the first might be a good idea if the
timber is valuable enough. This is also common practice in the industry.
Either method gets the Forester the material to then develop an
appraisal which is the dollar value of the timber minus the costs of
harvest, haul, reforestation, management services, excise tax, etc. The
final number is the one the landowner is usually most interested in. A
good Forester will do this for several scenarios, marking prescriptions
or levels of harvest, then let the owner decide what they'd like.
Painting the trees to be left is the last step before bringing in buyers
to estimate the timber on their own. If the Forester's done a good job,
they'll see a legitimate amount of profit in it and give you a bid. If
the Forester's off on his cruise or costs, they won't.
This is where it gets sticky with a Log Buyer who's fronting for a mill
or one who's got a monopoly going. They can shift costs to other sales
with bigger margins, spread their expenses over a lot of different sales
or even eat a few costs if the important goal is just to keep the heavy
machinery payments up to date and a mill running.
Stonepuppet
Being in a relatively remote area, I might have a hard time finding
uninvolved foresters, but it sounds like I should get a second opinion at
least.
I'm glad i found this board though, I had absolutely no idea that they
should pay me up front before the work is done, or that the trees should be
marked before cutting. My current forester at first said of course he marks
before cutting, but later said "what if i mark them all and you don't like
it".
I really didn't know how to respond to that. Should i offer to pay him for
marking them, then have competitors assess the value? I don't know if i
really trust his "4 bid" offer. What's to prevent them being associates of
his, or I getting bids lower than what he offered.
>
mhagen
You've never said where you were or what kind of forest you've got.
There may be an expert here who has better advice.
In this area (Olympic peninsula) landowners arent paid up front and if a
sale is also 3rd party scaled, it takes some time to collect all the
scale tickets. And outside of the local watering hole, it's not easy to
tell who's associated with who. Just get a few bids in and pick the
best. In a small community, everybody's associated one way or another.
As far as marking goes, if one is doing a selective cut, then trees MUST
be marked and far enough in advance for loggers to bid on them. Don't
let bidders paint trees, ever.
A few more trees here and there will always have to be added due to
machinery passage, accidental damage and other changes to the plan -
this the the Forester's job. It's not unknown to have to use black or
gray "eraser" paint if the plan changes but this begins to make a
marking job hard to follow. If one is doing a clear cut, patch cut or
some other kind of even aged management, then only the cutting boundary
is marked, not every tree.
Depending on the relative number of trees involved, it may make sense to
mark only leave trees - remember marking is skilled labor and not cheap.
Stonepuppet
>
> You've never said where you were or what kind of forest you've got.
> There may be an expert here who has better advice.
I'm in central New Hampshire, about 15 minutes from Dartmouth. What kind of
forest I have, Im not sure, but it was cut in 96 and it seems to be mostly
pulpwood by the looks of the figures. I'm on 175 acres of mostly woods but
about 15 of it is cleared field and some of it water. The cords/ mbf that
the forester planned to gain out of the cut posted below.
There was an unmentioned difference between the 2002 cut and the 2004 cut I
didnt notice until i dug out my 2002 copy. The same price was offered for
both.
white pine 2002 100 mbf 2004 218mbf
hemlock 2002 1mbf 2004 50mbf
red pine, 2002 1mbf 2004 0mbf
spruce fir 2002 1mbf 2004 1mbf
, hard maple 2002 1mbf 2004 1mbf
white birch 2002 17mbf, 2004 20 mbf
oak 2002 37 mbf 2004 80 mbf
ash 10 2002 10 mbf 2004 10 mbf
beech and soft maple 2002 15 mbf 2004 15 mbf
pulpwood
spruce and fir 2002 2 cords 2004 1 cord
hardwood and aspen 2002 495 cords 2004 200 cords
pine 2002 100 cords 2004 100
cords
hemlock 2002 2 cords 2004 50 cords
If anyone knows, is 90k for this is a fair price in my area ?
>
> In this area (Olympic peninsula) landowners arent paid up front and if a
> sale is also 3rd party scaled, it takes some time to collect all the
> scale tickets. And outside of the local watering hole, it's not easy to
> tell who's associated with who. Just get a few bids in and pick the
> best. In a small community, everybody's associated one way or another.
This forester said it would be paid as they cut / sell. Not sure how
frequently.
>
> As far as marking goes, if one is doing a selective cut, then trees MUST
> be marked and far enough in advance for loggers to bid on them. Don't
> let bidders paint trees, ever.
the forester I planned on using explained how they leave certain trees for
the turkeys and deer, etc. for food.
mhagen
call, eh?
The list looks like two different cruises and probably a much heavier
marking the second time around. And around here a sale of 300 MBF or so
can bring anywhere from $45 to $100K, depending on quality and logging
costs.