FS: Do Ford Australia Admit having an EL head problem
michael haller
I wonder if any of you know if Ford Australia admit that they have a
cylinder head problem due to faulty head bolts?
I have a 1997 EL Falcon that has just done 100,000km and blown the head
gasket. The mechanic that is fixing it said that Ford had a heap of
problems with these heads over the years and he feels if I write to them
they might refund me some of the cost - at least the $100 for the head bolts
if nothing else.
Can anyone assist me on this issue and does anyone know Fords address in
Melbourne?
Many thanks,
Mick Haller
mha...@ozemail.com.au
The Raven's claw
my failure to check oil levels. I am sure if Ford had any serious problem,
the public would be well aware of it. I feel blown head gaskets could be
caused by a number of other reasons, maybe we should blame ford for my wheel
bearings too mmm ???
Peter
Emma
"michael haller" <mha...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:hAHU9.44$VK2....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
yes ford did have probs with head bolts in the ef's but it was supposed to
be fixed in the el, as for getting money out of them - good luck!
Noddy
"michael haller" <mha...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:hAHU9.44$VK2....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>
> I wonder if any of you know if Ford Australia admit that they have a
> cylinder head problem due to faulty head bolts?
No.
The only Ford 6 cylinder that had an aknoledged head problem was the EA, and
even that wasn't something they considered a "major" issue.. Everything else
is fine, but people *still* jump to conclusions whenever they have a
problem.
> I have a 1997 EL Falcon that has just done 100,000km and blown the head
> gasket. The mechanic that is fixing it said that Ford had a heap of
> problems with these heads over the years and he feels if I write to them
> they might refund me some of the cost - at least the $100 for the head
bolts
> if nothing else.
Good luck :)
Up until very recently, I ran my own mechanical repair workshop, and the
bulk of my clientele were fleet cars. Of those, a good portion were EF & EL
sedans driven by blokes who thought they were Mario Andretti :)
I didn't mind, as it kept me busy, but these cars got the living crap canned
out of them on a daily basis yet very few of them suffered from cylinder
head problems. Over the course of 5 years or so that I had a maintenance
contract with a large company, I'd be *very* lucky if I'd fixed more than
half a dozen head gasket problems on late model Falcons, and in every one of
those cases without exception, the problem was caused by a component failure
that caused an overheat.
Not once was a head bolt the cause of a complaint.
I can't speak for your particular mechanic, but if he suggests that the head
bolts are the cause then I'd say he's puilling your leg...
> Can anyone assist me on this issue and does anyone know Fords address in
> Melbourne?
They're in the phone book if you're serious about contacting them, but I can
tell you one thing for certain: Unless you've owned the car from new and can
show a perfect dealer service history with absolutely *no* previous
problems, they're not going to care about you.
The Ford 6 cylinder uses head bolts that are specially designed to be a
"torque to yield" fastener, which means the bolt is tightened to stretch
*beyond* it's elastic limit. The purpose of this is to give much more
accurate clamping pressure than a conventional bolt that's tightened to a
specific torque setting, and it leaves little "room" for the bolt to move
around when the head casting expands and contracts due to temperature
changes.
The down side to this technique is that the bolts can only be tightened
once, and *must* be replaced with new ones whenever they are removed for
whatever reason.
For that reason alone, they cop a bit of unfair flak, as a few bolts have
been known to break in service. However, in the overwhelming majority of
cases where this occurs, it's caused by the ignorance of the mechanic
tightening the bolt a second time, which weakens it considerably, and the
movement of the head is enough to cause the bolt to break.
I took the head off my own EF at around 65000km when I fitted a camshaft to
it, to give it a bit of a port job and do some work on the valve seats, and
replaced the bolts when I did, and it's given me no problems over the
additional 40 odd thousand km's it's travelled since then. Additionally,
every head gasket I've ever replaced on a Falcon 6 of this type, I've
*always* replaced the bolts as per spec, and I've never had a come-back
problem.
You'd be surprised at the number of people in the trade who are unaware of
the necessity to do this, and re-use old bolts whenever they need to remove
the head. The ignorance of some people who call themselves "mechanics" is
amazing, and not all that many can see the need for spending 50 bucks or so
on a new set of bolts when the old ones "look okay" to them.
Try to find out a little bit about the service history of your car if you're
not the original owner. If it's ever had the head removed in it's life, then
there's a better than good chance that the original head bolts were re-used,
and if that's the case, it's most likely the cause of your problem now.
It's also the reason why Ford will do very little to help you, and you
really can't blame them for it either...
Regards,
Noddy.
atec77(antispam)
overheat it ?. (thats what kills them)
Brenden Will
Best bet is to keep and eye on the temp. The EF/EL radiators tend to block
real easy. $180 for a new radiator isn't too bad anyway. I've replace ours
once already as when Ford fixed the head gasket they didn't check the
radiator and I found a nice screw driver mark in it. Hole was covered by the
fans and only wept very slightly.
You won't get any $ from them.
Brenden
"michael haller" <mha...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:hAHU9.44$VK2....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
Dott.Ing.HatzOlah®
michael haller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wonder if any of you know if Ford Australia admit that they have a
> cylinder head problem due to faulty head bolts?
Yes they do have a problem,no they (or any other car co. or other) would ever
admit to it
The positive proof is look at how many times the head and associated bits for it
have changed,only reason being it is badly designed and the bits used are not
real flash
>
>
> I have a 1997 EL Falcon that has just done 100,000km and blown the head
> gasket. The mechanic that is fixing it said that Ford had a heap of
> problems with these heads over the years and he feels if I write to them
> they might refund me some of the cost - at least the $100 for the head bolts
> if nothing else.
Normal,just out of curiosity i ask EVERY EL vintage Ford owner about the head of
said car and nearly 85%+ it has failed or needed some sort of work,this is
backed up by the constant "specials" in the Repco & Ford dealers monthly
catalog,always VSR kits etc for L6 Falcons,futher i am good friends with 3
workshops ALL constantly have Falcons in for this job...
>
>
> Can anyone assist me on this issue and does anyone know Fords address in
> Melbourne?
I posted to your origonal post that Ford do NOT have to a thing as it is over
3YO,in any case mine was 6months/20,000km over but as i had full Ford dealer
service and get on well with the service manager they could put through a
special request form/report(forgot the actual correct FOMOCO name for it) and
FOMOCO will consider it,lucky for me (and the fact that i had FACTORY LPG) they
agreed to pay 100%.To say i was happy with this is a understatement,Ford dealers
quote about $1200 for this job ($800 approx by normal trade) depending how far
they go with it
U have gone all about it the wrong way,they would possibly pay u something if a
FORD dealer did the job,if some other party did it they will just quote the
warranty period and your screwed,they MAY pay for some parts assuming you have
used genuine Ford parts but they are not under any obligation to do so,u should
phone or send them a letter u have nothing to lose.
Look on the bright side u should be ok for another 100,000km !
CDIHL
Noddy
"Dott.Ing.HatzOlahŽ" <hatz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Yes they do have a problem,no they (or any other car co. or other) would
ever
> admit to it
>
> The positive proof is look at how many times the head and associated bits
for it
> have changed,only reason being it is badly designed and the bits used are
not
> real flash
You really have no clue as to what you're talking about Hatz...
For every Falcon you can show me with a cylinder head issue, I can show you
50 that have gone double the distance or more without the slightest trouble.
Regards,
Noddy.
Dott.Ing.HatzOlah®
Noddy wrote:
> "Dott.Ing.HatzOlahŽ" <hatz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > Yes they do have a problem,no they (or any other car co. or other) would
> ever
> > admit to it
> >
> > The positive proof is look at how many times the head and associated bits
> for it
> > have changed,only reason being it is badly designed and the bits used are
> not
> > real flash
>
> You really have no clue as to what you're talking about Hatz...
If u say so,i must be seeing and hearing things
The proof is located in the above,why do u constantly claim otherwise??I suggest
u do a whip around on the phone to workshops and Ford dealers,cylinder head reco
joints would also open your eyes....
>
>
> For every Falcon you can show me with a cylinder head issue, I can show you
> 50 that have gone double the distance or more without the slightest trouble.
Sure when u are making 350 cars a day not ALL but a % will have the
fault,fortunatly not every one,but still far to many have contract that disease
Lucky for Ford most are +100,000km and outside the warranty period (they could
if they wanted to claim "wear&tear" and offer no warranty even inside the said
period), i dont think AU + 99' have that problem,time will tell
CDIHL
>
>
> Regards,
> Noddy.
Dott.Ing.HatzOlah®
"Such a system required a level of reliability of things like the cylinder head
gasket, and Ford put a lot of work into improving it a great relief to those who
had head-gasket failures on earlier models. "
What like a EL Noddy ???
CDIHL
Dott.Ing.HatzOlah®
Yeap,never a problem with Falcon 6 cylinder head :
"as well as an alarming habit of spitting out head gaskets "
CDIHL
Noddy
"Dott.Ing.HatzOlahŽ" <hatz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> If u say so,i must be seeing and hearing things
Perhaps, but it may also stem from your trouble understanding what the
problem actually is.
> The proof is located in the above,why do u constantly claim otherwise??I
suggest
> u do a whip around on the phone to workshops and Ford dealers,cylinder
head reco
> joints would also open your eyes....
There is no *proof* you idiot, and I don't have to go around calling
workshops all over the city to find out what I already know.
I made a professional living servicing these cars on a daily basis, and
there is no more of a problem in this area with these cars than there is
with anything else. What part of that can't you understand?
Believe me, I have no reason whatsoever to cover up any faults Ford may have
jad with these models, and it the faults were as commonplace as you and
others claim, I'd be only too happy to confirm it for you.
> Sure when u are making 350 cars a day not ALL but a % will have the
> fault,fortunatly not every one,but still far to many have contract that
disease
Design faults, like you're suggesting the head bolt "problem" of EF & EL
Falcons are, are exactly that, and they affect *large* numbers of cars.
Automatic transmissions on early Magna's are a good example of a design
fault, as nearly *every* one of them suffered in exactly the same way. So
are the head gasket issues on EA Falcons, where cars of that model that
*didn't* have a problem in this area are the exception rather than the rule.
The EF & EL, on the other hand, have been known to have a small percentage
of cars fail with premature head gasket issues over the years, in in every
case I've seen personally it's been the result of a negelcted cooling system
or a cooling system component failure that has caused the engine to overheat
and break the head gasket seal.
This isn't a design fault, but rather a common problem that affects *all*
alloy head equipped vehicles.
I've seen a few EF & EL Falcons with broken head bolts in my time of
repairing them, and in every case I've known personally it's been a result
of the bolt being used a second time that's caused it to fail, and not once
have I, or any of my friends that work in the trade, seen a geunine factory
fitted bolt that has failed in service.
Problems such as this you can blame on the ignorance of the people re-using
the bolts, not the bolts themselves...
Are you beginning to understand yet?
> Lucky for Ford most are +100,000km and outside the warranty period (they
could
> if they wanted to claim "wear&tear" and offer no warranty even inside the
said
> period), i dont think AU + 99' have that problem,time will tell
Well, if you're correct, they all should, as they use exactly the same type
of bolt :)
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
"Dott.Ing.HatzOlahŽ" <hatz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> "Such a system required a level of reliability of things like the cylinder
head
> gasket, and Ford put a lot of work into improving it a great relief to
those who
> had head-gasket failures on earlier models. "
>
> What like a EL Noddy ???
Nice Hatz.
Written by a motoring journo, which makes him about as qualified as you are
in terms of automotive engineering :)
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
> http://www.trueblueford.com/ELfalcon_intro.html
>
> Yeap,never a problem with Falcon 6 cylinder head :
>
> "as well as an alarming habit of spitting out head gaskets "
Fuck, you're a twat :)
Let me tell you quite categorically, if they were even a *quarter* of the
problem that everyone thinks they are, I'd be a very wealthy man by now.
In the period between 1992 and 2002 when I sold my business, I had service
contracts for 11 different companies that covered over 200 different
vehicles. Of those, around 70% were Falcons, mostly sedans but a few
commercials, while the rest were Commodores and Magna's, and a few various
Japanese.
In that ten year period, I had around twenty thousand service and repair
jobs go through my shop on fleet cars alone, as well as the servicing and
repair jobs required for my regular private customers, of which there were
around 150 or so, and the occasional "once off" blow in.
Out of that mixture, the vehicle that earned me the *least* amount of money
over that time were Ford Falcons of the ED, EF, EL & AU range, and in all of
that time, I'd be *very* lucky if I had to replace a couple of Falcon head
gaskets a year. To be even more frank, I replaced more V6 Commodore engines
than Falcon head gaskets, and by a very long way.
The short answer here Hatz, is that unlike you, I don't need to read crap
from soft cocked motoring journo, or some web site know all hero declaring
"faults" with vehicles I know not to be true from personal experience.
The EF & EL Falcons are a good, solid reliable car, and the stories about
head gasket failures being commonplace are perpetuated by people who have no
idea of what they're talking about.
Incidentally, just to satisfy your curiosity, and that of anyone else who
may be interested, the car that made me the *most* money was the VN/P/R & S
Commy. Compared to the equivalent Falcon, they're as rough as guts and
nowhere near as reliable or cheap to repair :)
Regards,
Noddy.
Dallas McCarthy
I had the exact same problem with my EL Fairmont Ghia - It's done
92,000kms - I have no idea about the mechanics of a car, so I took it to
some mechanic and he did a pressure test and it was coming from the head. I
called City Ford over at Arncliffe (Sorry this is in NSW) and asked about
their head gaskets. The man said that EL had the same problem as the EF
models and that was the Head Bolts. They were made out of weak material so
broke fairly easily. He then tells me that this was rectified in the AU
models which had head bolts made out of a stronger material. Now hopefully
you aren't like me and understand all that crap - I just go with the flow.
Dallas
"michael haller" <mha...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:hAHU9.44$VK2....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
Jeremy
people talking about head gaskets. Mostly my opinion too.
As far as I know the main reason for any ford falcon six cylinder blowing
head gaskets, is because the block is made from cast iron, and the head from
alloy. These two metals have different expansion and contraction
times/abilities, hence the common head gasket problem. Since the two metals
expand and contract at different times, the head gasket constantly gets hot
spots and cold spots and warping of the head, which in turn eventually
breaks down the head gasket. Changing types of gaskets and bolts throughout
the falcon 6cylinder models over the years was a way of getting around
having to have an all alloy engine. And ford have tried to even up the hot
and cold spots issue aswell.
In my opinion an engine should be either all alloy or all iron, NOT a mix.
(Really old falcon 6cylinders with all iron engines did'nt have any where
near as much of a problem as new iron/alloy engines did they....)
I too often believe that Fords have always been given a bad name with head
gasket problems for no real reason, often it is a dodgy mechanic using head
bolts more then once, or using a cheap and nasty head gasket or coolant.
The head gasket can be considered as the most crucial gasket in an engine as
it is exposed to the most harshest elements.
(Pressure, heat, moisture, chemical exposure, slight movement) Yet most
people/mechanics all too often treat it as any other gasket in the engine.
And on the subject of falcon head gaskets, well my EBII Falcon six cylinder
had only 65,000kms when I bought it over two years ago, it now has close to
130,000kms, and I'm yet to have any head gasket woes... And I dont think it
would have had any head problems prior to 65,000kms.
I did once however have an XF falcon, which kept overheating (blocked
radiator), so I would loose coolant, I then kept topping it up with water
since constantly buying expensive coolant was out of the question, and
getting the radiator fixed also was too expensive for me at the time, not
long after the overheating episode, what do you know? - Blown head gasket,
well not actually a blown head gasket, but rather a small trail of corrosion
in the head going from the combustion chamber to the water jacket, no broken
head bolts.
This just proves one thing, it is quite often a maintenace thing which can
cause a blown head gasket, and with my XF I know that it was not the head
gasket to blame, if I had maintained the car, ie get the radiator unblocked,
I may not have corroded the head, in which case I may not have had any
further issues with the head at all.
In reality Falcon 6 cylinder head gaskets do not break all the time, XD to
XF door handles break all the time, that is a definate design fault example.
Yet with good maintence their life can be prolonged.
Its nearly always a matter of poor maintenance, and with people saying "Dont
buy a Falcon they blow head gaskets all the time" they are lacking in
knowledge/experience, since any part that is made of cast alluminium is
bound to corrode at some stage, take water pumps for example, yet noone
complains about water pumps "blowing" and leaking coolant do they...
Also is say $500 to replace a head gasket really too much money to spend on
your engine, these people that complain about head gasket replacement costs
should'nt be driving a falcon with higher running costs, they should be
driving a Daihatsu Charade in which case they will probably find themselves
stuck with another head gasket problem due to having an alloy head, and will
probably be even more expensive/problematic due to the complex design of
the engine.
False remark to say that falcons always blow head gaskets, and are a huge
problem, definately...
Just need good maintenance as with any car...
Jason Schinzig
cracked heads often.
Anyway, I agree with noddy.
"Jeremy" <meye...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
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