302 cleveland .. XD Falcon - performance build
cragar
You probably get this question alot .. so i hope you dont get too frustated
and help me out.
I have a 302 cleveland / C4 Auto in my XD. I want to get at least 400HP out
of it one way or the other.
I have a mate who can help me do the rebuild with all the goodies so i aint
taken it to a Performance Engine builder and pay them all the labour.. i
know I will have to get heads ported / machined etc.. i have someone to do
that..
what i ask is what sort of goodies and what needs to be done to get that
sort of power.. here is what i have been told i would need.. any advise
would be ohh so greatfull...
- 351 Crank ( to stroke it to 351)
- use my 302 heads and rods
- edelbrock manifold or alike ..like a torker
- roller rockers
- big cam
- Holley 750 DP or alike carby
there has to be more to it then this .. what else is required. I need like a
recipee , hehe, on the ingredients and what to do with certain things ..
like how much to port / bore heads etc.. ( i aint technically minded so
excuse my terminology.
I have been quoted about 7-$8000 to do this by a mechanic shop .. and to mee
most of that is labour.. i have seen articles on engine builds to get
similar horsepower for half that if you do it yourself (other than the
porting etc.. which you have to get an engineer to do anyway)
Let me know oh ford gurus ..
email me at beasty81@*nospam*hotmail.com
Thanks guys
Brenden
Weiand X-cellertor (something that works to 7000rpm) or the likes.
Denpending on the A$ manifold could cost $650+. Could be less.
You'll need a decent dizzy. Not the factory XD piece of crap. Plus you won't
be able to run vaccuum advance anyway. Dizzy will cost min $280 at the right
place but could cost up to $600-$700 + regraph to your cam specs around
$250
Your auto if you've got an auto will need at least a 3500rpm histall and
your diff will have to be at least 4.11's.
If you've got a manual thats another story. A diff ratio change would be in
order though but it could be 3.7 or 3.5 with a manual.
I am not 100% sure what power with the 302 rods you'll get but the 302 rods
will increase torque but minimise revs. As long rodded motor don't rev well.
Biggest downfall is the cost of the accessories required. Three cores don't
cool modified Clevelands well in traffic. My 4 core cost $655 for my XB but
it's a custom job as barely anyone makes 4 cores for XB's. XD's a totally
different story.
My $7000 engine rebuild blew out to $11,500. I was lazy and didn't build
mine. I'll build the next one. I've got a little higher power than what your
after but only a little. Your definately on the right track.
Roller rockers are a definate. You'll need adjustable ones.
Brenden
"cragar" <beasty81@*nono*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2O9Z7.64$ik1....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Marty Hogan
Brenden <bw...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:rnaZ7.32486$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Don't waste your time with a dual plane manifold. Go for a single plane.
> Weiand X-cellertor (something that works to 7000rpm) or the likes.
> Denpending on the A$ manifold could cost $650+. Could be less.
>
> You'll need a decent dizzy. Not the factory XD piece of crap. Plus you
won't
> be able to run vaccuum advance anyway. Dizzy will cost min $280 at the
right
> place but could cost up to $600-$700 + regraph to your cam specs around
> $250
>
> Your auto if you've got an auto will need at least a 3500rpm histall and
> your diff will have to be at least 4.11's.
>
> If you've got a manual thats another story. A diff ratio change would be
in
> order though but it could be 3.7 or 3.5 with a manual.
Im going to disagree with the diff ratio bit, keep the 2.78, or maybe go low
3's. 4.1 is a waste of time on the street, remember diff ratios multiple
torque, not power, and power is what you need to have to accelerate. The
reason why drag racers use higher diff ratios is that they have huge wheels
and they can make use of the torque multiplication that it provides.
Or to put it another way, if your spinning your wheels with a 2.7, then you
DONT need a higher diff ratio.
Yes im aware that this goes against a lot of what is considered "fact", but
it does make sense :)
Brenden
All of the below is not necessary with a manual.
To run the engine specs you want with an auto. You need atleast 3500rpm
histall. Otherwise the engine will bog down on lauch or just plain old
flood. If you have a histall? The diff ratio needs changing to 3.5 or lower.
Otherwise the stall convertor will not lock up and the auto will be slipping
100% of the time. I have proof of this as :
I have :
1) a 300kw Cleveland (possibly a smidge over)
2) a stage III auto with huge trans cooler
3) 3500rpm histall
4) had 3.0 ratio diff but you needed to do 140-150kph to lockup the
convertor in top gear. Definately not legal. Have gone 4.11 and now the
convertors locked up at 100kph and will now not cost me another auto. The
auto that was in there lasted 3700k's since it was reco'd and cooked due to
the 3.0 diff ratio and covertor not locking up. Current auto's done 2000k's
and is still going strong as it's not being cooked because the convertor is
locking up.
5) running 255/50/16" rear tyres on a 9" LSD 4.11 diff.
A big definate is a huge transmission cooler too. Don't run the trans lines
into the radiator (cooler only). If its not run through the radiator your
engine with run 10 degree C cooler for a start. You'll minimise boiling your
engine in traffic as the auto heats up.
My car is street reg'd and driven. I can use it as a daily driver but you
wouldn't want to pay for the fuel. The car uses 25-26litres per 100k's.
I have two other cars an EL Falcon and Hyndai S-Coupe as run abouts. To give
you an idea on fuel costs to drive 600k's;
XB 5.8lt : about $200pw to run
EL 4.0lt : $55-70 pw to run
S-Coupe 1.5lt: 20-30pw to run
Believe me big stall convertors and highway diffs don't match. As you'll
keep blowing the weak link which is the $700+ transmission every time. I've
been there and done that. 3.5/3.7/4.11 and the convertor will lock up at
legal speed limits. Convertor locks up auto stays cooler and does cook and
blow up.
Another way to make 400hp is to go 378 stroker and smaller cam shaft ie
2000-6000rpm or 2500-6500rpm. To do it with 351 ci the cam shaft need would
run from 3800-7000rpm. The stroker will have more torque and be a little
more streetable but will cost a good couple thousand more to build. Keep in
mind strokers don't rev.
Brenden
Ps..Just curious Marty what do you drive?
PPS..I researched and spoke to many people regarding the engine and drive
line for nearly 12 months before I went out and did it. The only thing I
f**ked up on was leaving it with the 3.0 diff with the 3500rpm histall for
3700k's. The diff ratio change was going to happen but I planned it for Jan
2002 and not Nov 2001.
"Marty Hogan" <pimpm...@NOSPAMdingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3c355ea7$0$17324$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
atec77(nospam)
Just some comments /
If you are going to spend that much $$$ on the thing, go ahead and build
the engine that you need to do what you want. It will have the correct
compression ratio forged pistons, etc.
I have to take issue with some of the ambitious advice so far . Ill get
to it later , if you are going to run a lot of boost, you don't
need to spin it to 8000 rpm! The blower makes the engine work at lower
rpm. Remember, the heads are the limiting factor for making
horsepower. You can either reach that limit by revving the piss out of
it naturally aspirated, or you can run moderate rpm and boost. Either
way, the heads *will* limit how much power you can make! . The turbo
set-up will be more efficient (make more ultimate power), but will be
more difficult to tune. Centrifugal superchargers seem to work well
with efi, the need to line up with the drive belts , and make exhaust
plumbing a bit easier.
Now if you want to turbo it then look up a john McKenzie in Aus.auto
He will show you how to do it cheaply with a single 4
Barrel blow through and most everything standard if you run some boost
then 400 is very easy and cheap to do
if you run a blower it will cost much more but 100k from a blown motor
is common due to the fact its not revved to death
ps I'd just put a carbureted 8 big block in
there (but that could still be less expensive than the 351 pushed. )
we did a stroker last year . 2k for the kit . it ran a single 4 barrel
dual plane manifold and some careful head work on 2v heads with a good
balance job .
made 385 horse easy with a mild cam and was totally drivable in auto
form , I doubt if its ever seen more than 6000 rpm .
The auto format also dictates a smaller cam to enable vacuum for the
auto shifting . a 2k to 2.5 k converter is nice but not vital
what needs to be done if the final drive checked and the converter
sorted to lock up and normal cruising speed , keeps the heat down and
then it doesn't lose the fun factor.
Anyway have a talk to noddy or john in AUs.auto
Regards
G>
Marty Hogan
> I'd have to agree with Marty provided you have a manual gearbox.
>
> All of the below is not necessary with a manual.
>
> To run the engine specs you want with an auto. You need atleast 3500rpm
> histall. Otherwise the engine will bog down on lauch or just plain old
> flood. If you have a histall? The diff ratio needs changing to 3.5 or
lower.
> Otherwise the stall convertor will not lock up and the auto will be
slipping
> 100% of the time. I have proof of this as :
Agreed with the need to get the engine into its power band, however with EFI
I believe you can get away with lower rpm stall converters due to better
tuning.
I dont want to sound arrogant, but I dont believe a torque converter
actually "locks up" unless its one of thost electronic locking types, and if
it was, you can get it to lock up at any RPM. What I think your meaning, is
that with the 3500 rpm torque converter, 4.1 ratio the engine is spinning at
over 3500 on the highway ( or close enough to it ) so that it isnt
constantly winding up / down as torque converters tend to do. Which of
course is easier on the gearbox temps.
I hadnt heard of that being a problem before, however the really good
solution is of course EFI and with an electronic lockup converter :) Prolly
doesnt cost that much more once you count in fuel costs, but anyways thank
you Brenden for raising a very valid and good point that I hadnt thought of.
Nothing worth mentioning ( im a uni student )
>
> PPS..I researched and spoke to many people regarding the engine and drive
> line for nearly 12 months before I went out and did it. The only thing I
> f**ked up on was leaving it with the 3.0 diff with the 3500rpm histall for
> 3700k's. The diff ratio change was going to happen but I planned it for
Jan
> 2002 and not Nov 2001.
I believe its a shame that there isnt a cheap available 4spd/od gearbox
available for the older V8's thats tough enough to handle huge amounts of
power, I feel that with one of these ,and a properly sorted EFI system, you
would be able to enjoy your V8 a lot more often.
Or just EFI with twin turbo V8, however that isnt that popular atm, no idea
why though, im sure it wouldnt cost any more then setting up a similar power
N/A v8, and would use less fuel.
Brenden
EFI's not really an option on Clevelands. You have to be an engineer to fit
it or you have to be stupidly cashed up.
Windsors are a different story. EFI heads etc will bolt straight onto an
older Windsor in an XT//XR/XW or XY.
Ford went back to the Windsor for some reason. Possibly due to the Windsors
being able to handle the rev's unlike the Clevelands. Pity the Windsors only
run 5/16th rod bolts which aint good. As this equals rods and pistons
exiting the block at high rpm.
To answer your question about the convertors they have a bearing and
input/output shaft that spins and builds up pressure at a certain rpm. For
example 900rpm is idle at 30psi but 3500rpm is 190psi which = movement. The
stall convertors are physically smaller than a stock 11" V8 convertor in my
case. My 3500 histall is 9".
Then the 11" stock convertor will reach 190psi = movement at 1800rpm. Idle
30psi at 550rpm.
The above is as example not exact pressures etc.
Brenden
"Marty Hogan" <pimpm...@NOSPAMdingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3c37d8a2$0$24251$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>Hi Marty,
>
>EFI's not really an option on Clevelands. You have to be an engineer to fit
>it or you have to be stupidly cashed up.
There is a guy here in Perth that builds his own Cleveland EFI setups,
check out this story on his car -
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/05/falconute/index.shtml
Still more expensive than a carb setup though.
I noticed no one has mentioned the 302 head/351 stroke, this combo
will almost certainly cause pinging on pump fuel in a relatively heavy
car like an XD, 10:1 would be about tops for a pump fuel fed carbed
351, the 302head/351 combo I recall gives over 11:1 with std pistons,
maybe you can shed some more light on this Brendan?
>Ford went back to the Windsor for some reason. Possibly due to the Windsors
>being able to handle the rev's unlike the Clevelands. Pity the Windsors only
>run 5/16th rod bolts which aint good. As this equals rods and pistons
>exiting the block at high rpm.
Ford went back to the Windsor (in the US) due to the new emission
laws/ULP for 1974, Windsor was easier/cheaper to make it compliant
with its smaller ports etc, Ford dropped the ball big time on racing
during this period so revving wasn't really on the agenda ;-)
Kieron
Brenden
Your right a mate has already run the 351 crank and 302 rods. Nice torque
but pinging was a problem. Mate scrapped the bottom end for 351 crank and
rods. No more pinging. Problem solved.
I am running 10.5:1 on 98 octane fuels (Optimax mainly).
302 closed chamber heads + 351 does = 11:1 comp. Too high and will ping at
any accelleration. Even on 98 octane fuels.
Brenden
"Kieron Murphy" <kie...@reiwa.com.au> wrote in message
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cragar
thanks for the feedback .. basically its more hassle than what its worth
!!!!!
should i just go get a 351 and work it .. or will i still encounter problems
like pinging etc..
Basically i have gather from the discussion:
1. i need a 9" with at least 3.5 gears
2. auto with at least 3500 stall.
3. a worked 351 .. not stroke my 302.
????
is this correct. here i was thinking i was just going to get a cam,
manifold, roller rockers and a holley DP .. oh and a 351 crank to stroke it
etc. heads ported etc... and that was it . i didnt realise there was so much
tinkering or things to take account for ..
what do you suggest is the less frustrating way to go..?? can the 302
byitself without stroking get me 400 ponies?? .. or should i just go get me
a dodgy 351 ..strip it down and work it back up ..
"Brenden" <bw...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:_P8_7.967$9u6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Brenden
looked. I may be cheaper to buy a whole clapper 351 for $200-$300.
If you run 3500 histall? You need 4.11's min. Otherwise you'll blow autos.
3000rpm = 3.7's and 2500rpm = 3.5's.
If you want to run 3.5 gears? Stroke the engine to 378. This way you can run
a smaller cam to do 400hp. With 351 crank and rods you need s 600thou+ lift
cam. Which means 3500 histall and 4.11 gears.
By the way. Mines broken. The valve train failed yesterday. Pulled it apart
today and found a broken valve spring. It's most likely going back under
warranty as the valve spring has snapped in half. Valve springs just don't
snap.
Pitty the place isn't open for another week. Disappointing but at least it
shouldn't cost me. If its going to cost I'll fix it myself as the head may
need to come off.
Brenden
"cragar" <beasty81@*nono*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kfa_7.40$n62....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
jeff and nicole
> 3. a worked 351 .. not stroke my 302.
put a 351 crank and rods in it and you have a 351. If you dont have the
motor yet you may as well buy a 351 and save yourself the hassle
my 2c!
Jeff
Brenden
What Jeff is trying top say is the 302 and 351 Clevelands use the same
block. Just the crank and rods are the only difference.
Brenden
"jeff and nicole" <bou...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:KVd_7.2851$lt4.1...@ozemail.com.au...
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>Cragar,
>
>What Jeff is trying top say is the 302 and 351 Clevelands use the same
>block. Just the crank and rods are the only difference.
Jjust remember that the other difference is the 302 has the small
chamber heads so buying a clapped 351 may be cheaper, then choose the
best block.
Kieron
Brenden
should be about 10.5 and 400hp should be achieved.
I am running 302 closed chamber heads CC'd etc with 4V valves installed.
Brenden
"Kieron Murphy" <kie...@reiwa.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c3a748f....@wa.news.telstra.net...
jeff and nicole
open chamber heads will save you a fair bit of grief...
Jeff
Kieron Murphy <kie...@reiwa.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c3a748f....@wa.news.telstra.net...
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>The closed chamber heads is what Cragar is after. As when CC'd etc the comp
>should be about 10.5 and 400hp should be achieved.
>
>I am running 302 closed chamber heads CC'd etc with 4V valves installed.
Are you running flat tops or dished pistons though Brendan?
I had a 302W in my Mustang that was 10:1 from the factory, I rebuilt
it going 30 thou over, machined heads etc, new flat tops with indents
for valves slightly warmer cam and got pinging on Super under load,
bit better on PULP, ended up with a mix of Avgas and PULP to stop
pinging.
Kieron
Brenden
fuels. Standard unleaded or leaded I can't run on as it detonates.
Keiron. : Got any idea on what valve springs to run good ones?
I've splattered one of mine. The set cost me $220. They're 230ftlbs seat
pressure from a big block chev. I need the valve train to handle 7000 easy.
So far I have rev'd to 6000 and bent a push rod. Actually roller rockers
bolt snapped. The push rod bouced around freely and got bent. Fixed with
better bolts.
Then rev'd to 6500 and splattered an outter valve spring. I am running
double spings at the moment. The cam power starts at 3800rpm and finishes at
7000rpm. It'd be nice to be able to use the engine to it's full potential.
Brenden
"Kieron Murphy" <kie...@reiwa.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c3ba10d....@wa.news.telstra.net...
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>Keiron. : Got any idea on what valve springs to run good ones?
>
>I've splattered one of mine. The set cost me $220. They're 230ftlbs seat
>pressure from a big block chev. I need the valve train to handle 7000 easy.
>So far I have rev'd to 6000 and bent a push rod. Actually roller rockers
>bolt snapped. The push rod bouced around freely and got bent. Fixed with
>better bolts.
>
>Then rev'd to 6500 and splattered an outter valve spring. I am running
>double spings at the moment. The cam power starts at 3800rpm and finishes at
>7000rpm. It'd be nice to be able to use the engine to it's full potential.
Ouch, were the Chev ones new, any chances of a warranty claim?
To be honest, I don't know Brenden, i'd call places like Yella Terra
and Crow Cams, or MOffats old engine builder, can't recall his name
but he used to advertise in Street Machine or speak to some of the
drag guys running Clevos.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Kieron
Brenden
and I'm itching to drive my car again.
Brenden
"Kieron Murphy" <kie...@reiwa.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c3e3ba9....@wa.news.telstra.net...
abc
about ...
i wouldnt mind running hi octane unlead fuel .. etc. so what do i need to do
.. and how do i know if my engine has open or closed chamber heads? and
should i just buy some new heads already race prepared or stick with mine
and get them ported etc .. all i know is its a factory 302 from 81 XD.
thanks again .
"jeff and nicole" <bou...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:AXy_7.3411$lt4.1...@ozemail.com.au...
Brenden
Brenden
"abc" <a...@c.com> wrote in message news:3c3f...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...