Chicken lady
Kenneth Des-Jardins
Hi.
Sorry if you've debunked this one already. I checked the FAQ to no avail.
When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were not
permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
I wasn't particularly surprised when someone else told me the same story
two days later.
Ken Des Jardins
jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Chris Borg
I'm sorry but having lived in San Francisco and next to Chinatown for 30
years I would say its true.
Kenneth
Des-Jardins (jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Hi.
Andrew S Goldstein
bo...@ac.usfca.edu (Chris Borg) writes:
> Kenneth
>Des-Jardins (jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: Hi.
>: Ken Des Jardins
It may or may not be true (I would guess not) but I'm pretty sure I've
heard this one before, although I can't remember where.
Helge Moulding
Kenneth Des-Jardins graced us with:
: Hi.
Hi yourself.
: [Woman kills chicken to ride on "no live animals" public transit...]
You sound as if your UL detector is working ok. This story is told about
various locales. Somehow, the racist intimation of placing it near some
city's "chinatown" doesn't surprise me. I have noted before that racist
overtones are a staple of ULs.
I think this story comes up in Brunvand's books, but my index is at home,
so I cannot look it up right now...
Chris Borg wrote,
: I'm sorry but having lived in San Francisco and next to Chinatown for 30
: years I would say its true.
I'm sorry, but did you say you saw this happen yourself? You and Kenneth's
FOAF were sitting where on the bus?
Given the FOAF in Kenneth's version, and the racist nature of the story,
I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg. While I don't like to
impugn your voracity, I'm not inclined to believe that there are a lot of
women (Asian, presumably) carrying live chickens onto public busses, and
snapping their necks.
--
Helge "In Germany it's the Gyspies." Moulding
h...@slc.unisys.com Just another guy with a foreign
http://wwww.geocities.com/Athens/1401/ language quote in his .sig
---------------\
Zut alors! -- \------------------------------------\
C. de Gaulle \ Az der bubbe vot gehat baytzim vot \------------------
------------------\zie geven mein zayde. -- A. Hitler \ Scheisse! --
\---------------------------------------------\J.W. von Goethe
\------------------------
Kevin Grabow
I think this is most likely a derivation off the last episode of
M*A*S*H. In the episode, Hawkeye (Alan Alda) is having some serious
mental conflicts, so he goes to that shrink that pops up from time to
time (Sydney). He recalls being on the back of a parked bus, in the war
zone, where everyone is being quite trying to avoid detection. Across
the isle, is a lady with a chicken that keeps clucking. Everyone on the
bus, fearing for their lives, keeps telling her to shut it up. So, she
breaks its neck. Only after therapy with Sydney, does Hawkeye realize
that she wasn't holding a chicken, she was holding her infant son.
Green"Why did the Chicken cross the road? To avoid getting its neck
snapped" Head
Kim Scheinberg
h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) deserves a Nobel for
>
>: [Woman kills chicken to ride on "no live animals" public transit...]
>
>You sound as if your UL detector is working ok. This story is told about
>various locales. Somehow, the racist intimation of placing it near some
>city's "chinatown" doesn't surprise me. I have noted before that racist
>overtones are a staple of ULs.
>
>I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg. While I don't like to
Don't be absurd, Helge
No SF chinese restaurant uses MSG anymore...
kim "at least none worth its salt does anyway" scheinberg
Jerod Pore
Kenneth Des-Jardins (jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
: who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
: boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were not
: permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
Live animals *are* allowed to travel on Muni. If the critter is not a
seeing-eye dog, the person bringing the animal on must pay an additional
fare.
I've seen dogs, cats, illegal ferrets, free range snakes, parrots and
many live & dead goldfish in 16 years of riding San Francisco's public
transportation.
--
Jerod Pore - jer...@well.com - jer...@netcom.com
Cthulhu & Elron in '96 - why vote for the *lesser* evils???
Zines FAQ & over - http://www.well.com/conf/f5/f5index2.html
1,500 reviews - gopher gopher.well.com~/Publications/F5/Reviews
Yet another anti-Scientology page - http://www.well.com/user/jerod23/clam.html
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits. There is nothing wrong with
abortion. Kill whites, kill blacks, kill Jews, kill hispanics, kill asians,
kill men, kill women, kill children, kill homosexuals, kill heterosexuals,
kill bisexuals, kill asexuals, kill mammals, kill reptiles, kill birds,
kill everyone else not mentioned. Not until the last elected official
who voted for the Telecom "Reform" Bill (and that's all but 21 of them) is
tortured and hanging from the entrails of the last Radical Christian/Radical
Feminist/$cientologist (is there a difference?) will free expression be
protected.
Matthew P Wiener
In article <1996May2.1...@unislc.slc.unisys.com>, hsm@unislc (Helge Moulding) writes:
>You sound as if your UL detector is working ok. This story is told about
>various locales. Somehow, the racist intimation of placing it near some
>city's "chinatown" doesn't surprise me. I have noted before that racist
>overtones are a staple of ULs.
What precisely is "racist" about it? Why isn't the story "sexist"?
Slaughter-it-yourself is considered normal in Chinese culture. Perhaps
if you only think of meat as frozen packaged stuff it seems "racist" to
mention cultures less "civilized" than you.
>Given the FOAF in Kenneth's version, and the racist nature of the story,
>I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg. While I don't like to
>impugn your voracity, I'm not inclined to believe that there are a lot of
>women (Asian, presumably) carrying live chickens onto public busses, and
>snapping their necks.
So? The point of the story is not that it happens often, but that it
allegedly happened _once_. Big difference.
Note: I have no opinion on the story's truth or falsity. I just have my
doubts about where you are coming from.
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Matthew P Wiener
In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960501...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>, Kenneth Des-Jardins <jardins@alexia writes:
>Sorry if you've debunked this one already. I checked the FAQ to no avail.
>When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
>who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
>boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were not
>permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
>I wasn't particularly surprised when someone else told me the same story
>two days later.
Someone I know personally, a kosher butcher with a reputation for just
loving animal blood, told me that he once had a pet sheep (he would not
have a pet cat or dog since his rebbe frowned on keeping non-kosher
species around) and when his neighbors began making a stink over it,
including writing letters to the township government to complain, he
invited the neighborhood kids to come by one day after school, and then
ritually slaughtered the sheep on his front lawn, and then told all the
kids that their families were invited over tomorrow evening for lamb
chops.
Of course, he may have been pulling my leg, but he was a bit of a wild
and crazy guy.
Judy Johnson
grn...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Grabow) wrote:
>I think this is most likely a derivation off the last episode of
>M*A*S*H. In the episode, Hawkeye (Alan Alda) is having some serious
>mental conflicts, so he goes to that shrink that pops up from time to
>time (Sydney). He recalls being on the back of a parked bus, in the war
>zone, where everyone is being quite trying to avoid detection. Across
>the isle, is a lady with a chicken that keeps clucking. Everyone on the
>bus, fearing for their lives, keeps telling her to shut it up. So, she
>breaks its neck. Only after therapy with Sydney, does Hawkeye realize
>that she wasn't holding a chicken, she was holding her infant son.
Except I remember it as the woman smothering the chicken/child, not
wringing its neck. This same motif was used in a TV movie (methinks it
was titled "The Wall") on the Warsaw ghetto uprising, as well as in the
Tom Selleck movie "Quigly Down Under".
Wasn't this UL discussed on AFU not too long ago, with the general
concensus being that it was a UL thru-and-thru?
Judy "nothing here but us chickens" Johnson
Michael Heinz
h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) wrote:
>Given the FOAF in Kenneth's version, and the racist nature of the story,
>I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is the story "racist"?
Certainly, people from other (farm)lands may be far more used to the
bloody end of the food chain than your average american - but how does
the story imply that such people are inferior?
Mike "Will kill poultry for food" Heinz
Michael Heinz, mhe...@ssw.com
Loostners Castor Oil Flakes: The All-Weather Breakfast! -- Firesign Theatre
hv...@shrewsbury.org
h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) wrote:
> Kenneth Des-Jardins graced us with:
> : [Woman kills chicken to ride on "no live animals" public transit...]
> You sound as if your UL detector is working ok. This story is told about
> various locales. Somehow, the racist intimation of placing it near some
> city's "chinatown" doesn't surprise me.
Then again, the only store I know (I realize that this is not the
highest guarantee of authenticity) that sells live chickens in Los
Angeles is in Chinatown. I've often delighted friends by taking them
for a walk after a Chinatown dinner to see the guard geese wandering
around the store. I'm not vouching for the UL; I'm just vouching for
one Chinatown live chicken store (and good chicken it is!).
Linda "It's those little pleasures like guard geese that make life
worth living (mine, I mean, not the chickens who don't have a choice)"
hv...@shrewsbury.org
Lee Rudolph
mhe...@ssw.com (Michael Heinz) writes:
>h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) wrote:
>
>>Given the FOAF in Kenneth's version, and the racist nature of the story,
>>I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg.
>Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is the story "racist"?
Me too (actually, three, since Matthew Weiner has also questioned
the use of that word).
I assume live poultry actually _is_ sold in San Francisco's Chinese
quarter? And that it's available for live (as contrasted with
freshly slaughtered) take-out? If so--and I think the burden of
proof is on Helge that these perfectly reasonable conditions do
not prevail in SF--, then (unless we have reason to believe that
the woman in question was taking home a layer, so that her
action would have been humorously stupid in the style of
"Polacks" or "Newfies" in jokes of those genres) she is shown
simply as a quick thinker. Perhaps *that* was racist?
Lee Rudolph
Dave Blake
In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960501210327.26477D-
100...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>, Kenneth Des-Jardins
<jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> writes
>
>When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
>who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
>boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were not
>permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
I witnessed something similar in Turkey about eight years ago. My
girlfriend and I were on a Dolmus (sp?), a kind of minibus that passes
for public transport. It was pretty new and the driver (and owner?) was
obviously quite proud of it. These buses don't leave their start point
until all the seats are full, so we sat on the bus for about half an
hour waiting for more passengers. It was very, very hot. Eventually a
last few passengers boarded including one who had obviously been to
market. He had a plastic bag full of groceries and, tucked in his
jacket, a chicken. He sat a few rows in front of us.
When the driver came down the bus collecting fares, he saw the chicken
and nearly had a fit. There followed a discussion and the passenger got
off the bus with the driver. They walked around the side of the bus and
opened one of the luggage compartments. The chicken was shoved inside.
Harmony restored they reboarded the bus and we went on our way. After
about an hour, the chicken-owner got off the bus and the driver opened
the luggage compartment. Predictably the bird was dead. The owner didn't
seem too bothered.
Dave Blake
London, England
Helge Moulding
Lee Rudolph wrote,
: >h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) wrote:
: >>[...] the racist nature of the story [...]
: >Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is the story "racist"?
: Me too (actually, three, since Matthew Weiner has also questioned
: the use of that word).
I figured I'd catch flack for this, and wondered if maybe I was
being too sensitive. (For one thing, I know that when I'm *not*
thinking about it, I can be quite insensitive.)
Anyway, I see it as stereotyping Asians as being rural types,
trapped in their old folkways, which (naturally) includes a
certain callousness towards living creatures. It's right up
there with observing that there are fewer stray dogs in Asian
neighborhoods.
This story is told with specific reference to some Chinatown or
other. We are not being told of a person of non-specific
ethnicity. Why, I have to ask, does the ethnic origin of the
person matter to the story? Well, because it just "makes sense"
that Asians would do that; we all *know* what those Asians are
like.
I agree that Anglo USAns might do similar things, but that
is emphatically *not* the point of this story. That is why I
see it as conveying a racist idea. Sorry if you don't agree.
--
Helge "Steeped in racism since birth..." Moulding
h...@slc.unisys.com Just another guy
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1401/ with a weird name
Mike Holmans
Lee Rudolph comments;
> mhe...@ssw.com (Michael Heinz) writes:
>
> >h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) wrote:
> >
> >>Given the FOAF in Kenneth's version, and the racist nature of the
> story,
> >>I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg.
>
> quarter? And that it's available for live (as contrasted with
> freshly slaughtered) take-out? If so--and I think the burden of
> proof is on Helge that these perfectly reasonable conditions do
> not prevail in SF--, then (unless we have reason to believe that
> the woman in question was taking home a layer, so that her
> action would have been humorously stupid in the style of
> "Polacks" or "Newfies" in jokes of those genres) she is shown
> simply as a quick thinker. Perhaps *that* was racist?
Uh-uh. I'm with Helge on this one.
This is an *urban* legend (I know we're not normally fussy about that
word here, but this time it may be relevant). Yes, I've watched my
grandfather wring a chicken's neck and see the carcase emerge from the
oven in the evening on the farm, but I don't expect to see that on the
bus home from work. The dead animals we eat were, we expect, killed in
slaughterhouses.
The robust attitude to animals' lives is not shared by the urban dweller
(it is thought that the majority of British anti-hunting protesters are
city folk), and the woman's actions are taken as evidence of cruelty. The
racism comes in because the cruelty of the slitty-eyed ((C) HRH Prince
Philip) Far Eastern people is a well-known stereotype: they were
incredibly harsh and fanatical during WW2, they eat monkey brains while
the monkeys are alive, they put poodles in microwaves deliberately, their
chief weapons are fear, surprise and an almost fanatical devotion to the
Emperor, etc.
Racist in intention, yup.
Mike "now, a *pigeon* would have been different" Holmans
Kenneth Des-Jardins
On Fri, 3 May 1996, Helge Moulding wrote:
> I agree that Anglo USAns might do similar things, but that
> is emphatically *not* the point of this story. That is why I
> see it as conveying a racist idea. Sorry if you don't agree.
I agree with Helge too--which may make you ask, "Well why the hell did
you post it in the first place?" I posted it only in the interest of
knowing how far this story had spread, and in what forms. I didn't mean
to perpetuate any stereotypes.
Ken "some of my best friends are chickens" Des Jardins
Graduate School of Library and Information Science
Jerod Pore
Lee Rudolph (lrud...@panix.com) wrote:
: I assume live poultry actually _is_ sold in San Francisco's Chinese
: quarter? And that it's available for live (as contrasted with
: freshly slaughtered) take-out? If so--and I think the burden of
: proof is on Helge that these perfectly reasonable conditions do
: not prevail in SF--, then (unless we have reason to believe that
: the woman in question was taking home a layer, so that her
: action would have been humorously stupid in the style of
: "Polacks" or "Newfies" in jokes of those genres) she is shown
: simply as a quick thinker. Perhaps *that* was racist?
Yes, one can but live chickens in Chinatown. They are most often sold
out of the backs of trucks, and the buyers are most often butchers or
chefs at local restaurants.
While it's possible she was buying a layer, I'd like to know where in
Frisco it's zoned to keep livestock.
Chris Borg
Yes they do sell LIVE poultry in Chinese stores in San Francisco
Lee Rudolph (lrud...@panix.com) wrote:
: mhe...@ssw.com (Michael Heinz) writes:
: >h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding) wrote:
: >
: >>Given the FOAF in Kenneth's version, and the racist nature of the story,
: >>I think it's ULishness rings in at almost 7.3 msg.
: >Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is the story "racist"?
: Me too (actually, three, since Matthew Weiner has also questioned
: the use of that word).
: I assume live poultry actually _is_ sold in San Francisco's Chinese
: quarter? And that it's available for live (as contrasted with
: freshly slaughtered) take-out? If so--and I think the burden of
: proof is on Helge that these perfectly reasonable conditions do
: not prevail in SF--, then (unless we have reason to believe that
: the woman in question was taking home a layer, so that her
: action would have been humorously stupid in the style of
: "Polacks" or "Newfies" in jokes of those genres) she is shown
: simply as a quick thinker. Perhaps *that* was racist?
: Lee Rudolph
Bill Welch
In article <Dqury...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "\"Mike Holmans\""
<mike_h...@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes
>The robust attitude to animals' lives is not shared by the urban dweller
>(it is thought that the majority of British anti-hunting protesters are
>city folk), and the woman's actions are taken as evidence of cruelty. The
>racism comes in because the cruelty of the slitty-eyed ((C) HRH Prince
>Philip) Far Eastern people is a well-known stereotype: they were
>incredibly harsh and fanatical during WW2, they eat monkey brains while
>the monkeys are alive, they put poodles in microwaves deliberately, their
>chief weapons are fear, surprise and an almost fanatical devotion to the
>Emperor, etc.
The Emperor of China? the Chinese were fanatical during WW2? I think
this is slightly confusing the issue.
Or are you hinting that Chinatowns in the USA equate to the WW2 Japanese
empire in peoples' minds? Or does the USA have Japantowns as well?
--
Crispy organ grinder delineates Bill Welch's stupidly-applied pancake!
Michael Heinz
Bill Welch <bi...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Or are you hinting that Chinatowns in the USA equate to the WW2 Japanese
>empire in peoples' minds? Or does the USA have Japantowns as well?
Not many Japantowns, but certainly Koreatowns and many other
Asian-towns depending on the region. Many immigrants congregate
together when they first come to America - having a shared culture and
similar experiences and all. For some reason the asian neighborhoods
are more widely recognized. You rarely hear about New York's world
famous Russia-Town district, for example. But I am familiar with
areas that are famous for their number of Malasian, Nicuraguan (sp?),
or even Irish immigrants.
Michael Heinz, mhe...@ssw.com
He's no fun, he fell right over!
-- Firesign Theatre,
"How Can You Be In Two Places at Once When You
Don't Even Know Where You Are?"
Kim Scheinberg
Bill Welch <bi...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> deserves a Nobel for
>
>Or are you hinting that Chinatowns in the USA equate to the WW2 Japanese
>empire in peoples' minds? Or does the USA have Japantowns as well?
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if it's as simple as 'Do US cities
have sections known as "Japantown"' I have only two words for you:
kim "San Francisco" scheinberg
Kim Scheinberg
mhe...@ssw.com deserves a Nobel for
>are more widely recognized. You rarely hear about New York's world
>famous Russia-Town district, for example. But I am familiar with
~~~~~~~~~~~
That's like saying you rarely hear about NY's '6th Ave'[1]
But while there *are* many ethnic neighborhoods in New York that are
unknown outside Manahttan, the area more commonly known as "Little
Odessa" isn't one of them
kim "you can take the girl out of the city" scheinberg
[1] Ave of the Americas is much better known
Michele Tepper
Kim Scheinberg <ik...@panix.com> wrote:
>mhe...@ssw.com deserves a Nobel for
>>are more widely recognized. You rarely hear about New York's world
>>famous Russia-Town district, for example.
>But while there *are* many ethnic neighborhoods in New York that are
>unknown outside Manahttan, the area more commonly known as "Little
>Odessa" isn't one of them
Largely because it's not actually in Manhattan, of course.
Michele "Brightened beach" Tepper
--
Michele Tepper "...textuality, like Elvis, is everywhere."
mte...@panix.com -- Michael Berube
jenster
Helge Moulding (h...@unislc.slc.unisys.com) wrote:
: Anyway, I see it as stereotyping Asians as being rural types,
: trapped in their old folkways, which (naturally) includes a
: certain callousness towards living creatures. It's right up
: there with observing that there are fewer stray dogs in Asian
: neighborhoods.
Hear, hear. And, to back you up vis-a-vis the "In my country it was
Gypsies" line in your .sig earlier in this thread, I turn to no less
venerable source than Jan Harold Brunvand himself, on page 226 of "The
Baby Train & Other Lusty Urban Legends" (Norton, 1993):
"An article by Spencer Sherman in the October 1988 issue of National
Geographic titled 'The Hmong in America' tells how these Southeast Asian
people, having come to the United States only recently, are still
unfamiliar with western comforts. The Hmong have been mystified by light
switches, tried to wash rice in their toilet bowls, an lit cooking fires
on their apartment floors.
"Herman R. Bininda of Calgary, Alberta, called my attention to the
article and suggested that these claims resemble the urban legends often
told about refugees thrust into advanced cultures.
"Bininda's experience wieht refugee stories, it turns out, goes back
fifty years or more. 'I was born before WWII in what is not the Federal
Republic of Germany and witnessed the influx of refugees form the former
German Provinces of East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia,' he explained.
" 'Many of the stories I heard then about refugees are now being echoed
in the stories of recent immigrants to northan America, such as the Hmong
people.'
..."Supposedly the refugees raised pigs and rabbits in their bathtubs.
And Gypsies were said to have made campfires in their apartments, using
the floorboards for fuel. While some such incidents may actually have
occured, it seems likely that other reports are merely based on
unverified hearsay -- rumors and urban legends, that is. The continued
telling of similar stories also suggests that their source is folk
tradition rather than reality."
And if anyone *really* feels like discussing whether people of Asian descent
in North America are overly stereotyped as "alien" immigrants, drop in on
the flamefest that is soc.culture.asian.american. Asbestos suit recommeded.
--Jennifer
(Asian, urban, and doesn't eat anything that moves on all fours)
Bill Welch
In article <4mg4ub$h...@panix2.panix.com>, Kim Scheinberg
<ik...@panix.com> writes
The original UL referred to an incident near Chinatown. The poster I
was replying to made references to popular perception of Japanese
culture. I expect it would be more useful for me to ask: Do US city
inhabitants clearly distinguish between Chinese and other eastern Asian
enclaves, like Japanese or Korean?
Obviously there will be distinct cultural differences between such
groups.
>kim "San Francisco" scheinberg
I'm too far away to pop over for a look ..
--
Righteous con man paints Bill Welch's unreasonably-ended beard!
Chris Borg
I'm sorry I still say it is true. I'm also the only non-Chinese in my
office. I asked one of my co-workers she said she could see an older woman
doing this. Live chickens are sold in markets in Chinatown here in San
Francisco I walk by them almost daily. Ya know I did not see Hiltler blow
his brains out...but I bet its true.
Kenneth Des-Jardins (jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Hi.
: Sorry if you've debunked this one already. I checked the FAQ to no avail.
: When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
: who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
: boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were not
: permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
: I wasn't particularly surprised when someone else told me the same story
: two days later.
: Ken Des Jardins
: jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Mike Holmans
Bill Welch queries:
> <mike_h...@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes
>> evidence of cruelty. The >racism comes in because the cruelty of the
>> slitty-eyed ((C) HRH Prince >Philip) Far Eastern people is a
well-known
> The Emperor of China? the Chinese were fanatical during WW2? I think
> this is slightly confusing the issue.
>
I don't think that your average racist is likely to be over-bothered by
specific country, which is what I was trying to point out.
Mike "don't want to make a Korea out of this. The pay's too low" Holmans
JHudson
And...@world.std.com (Andrew S Goldstein) wrote:
..>>>> Kenneth
..>>>>Des-Jardins (jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
..>>>>: When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
..>>>>: who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
..>>>>: boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were
not
..>>>>: permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
..>>>>: I wasn't particularly surprised when someone else told me the same story
..>>>>: two days later.
..>>>It may or may not be true (I would guess not) but I'm pretty sure I've
..>>>heard this one before, although I can't remember where.
Awwww. When I read about it (in Reader's Digest... Again!) it was a shepherd on
an Aeroflot flight. He used a long knife to slit his goat's throat.
This was one of my top five favorite stories of all time!! Man, this is worse
than finding out about Santa...
Hane Hudson
Matthew P Wiener
In article <1996May3.1...@unislc.slc.unisys.com>, hsm@unislc (Helge Moulding) writes:
>Anyway, I see it as stereotyping Asians as being rural types,
>trapped in their old folkways, which (naturally) includes a
>certain callousness towards living creatures.
Why is it callous to kill your chicken on the bus, instead of later
when you get home?
> It's right up
>there with observing that there are fewer stray dogs in Asian
>neighborhoods.
What if there are? So they eat stray dog. Who cares?
I'm missing something.
>This story is told with specific reference to some Chinatown or
>other. We are not being told of a person of non-specific
>ethnicity. Why, I have to ask, does the ethnic origin of the
>person matter to the story? Well, because it just "makes sense"
>that Asians would do that; we all *know* what those Asians are
>like.
So? I'm still missing something.
>I agree that Anglo USAns might do similar things, but that
>is emphatically *not* the point of this story. That is why I
>see it as conveying a racist idea. Sorry if you don't agree.
What racist idea, exactly? Fresh food?
Kim Scheinberg
>was replying to made references to popular perception of Japanese
>culture. I expect it would be more useful for me to ask: Do US city
>inhabitants clearly distinguish between Chinese and other eastern Asian
>enclaves, like Japanese or Korean?
In New York City, I can only think of Chinatown when one starts
discussing Asian enclaves
In San Francisco, however, there are two very distinct neighborhoods. I
don't have a map handy so I can't tell you the respective sizes of each
neighboorhood. They don't border one another (as in NYC, Chinatown
borders a neighborhood one could only compare to Little Italy, Japantown
borders parts of Pacific Heights) and each neighborhod has small sections
where the primary language of the signage is Japanese or Chinese,
respectively. Just have a look at real estate listings at www.sfgate.com
and it becomes clear that these neighborhoods are identifiable as J-T and
C-T in the eyes of any San Franciscan
kim "will eat in either neighborhood for food" scheinberg
fletcher
In article <4mg56o$h...@panix2.panix.com>,
ik...@panix.com (Kim Scheinberg) wrote:
>That's like saying you rarely hear about NY's '6th Ave'[1]
>>
>[1] Ave of the Americas is much better known
Oh no... are New Yorkers actually using "Avenue of the Americas" these
days?
As in, "damn, no taxis on 57th; better head over to _Avenue of the
Americas_"?
Really, I suppose next they'll be saying "make a left at that cute little
Paraguay sign"...
Victoria "but the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before" Sudo
JoAnne Schmitz
LWE...@prodigy.com (Judy Johnson) wrote:
>grn...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Grabow) wrote:
Sorry I missed this discussion. Wasn't this told about babies of
Jewish and other hunted people during WWII? It reminds me of the
story of the Spartan child and the fox.
Having just started to read _Hard Times_, an oral history of the
greate depression [of 1929+ in the USA] by Studs Terkel, (Pantheon
Books, 1970) the bells started ringing in my head. Here's a similar
story about the march on Washington for veteran's benefits, where many
of the petitioners and some of their families hoboed on trains to
reach the nation's capital:
"We had to go through these mountain countries. The smoke from the
stacks of the engines, and the soot, would be flying back through the
tunnels and would be coming into the boxcars. So in order to avoid
getting choked, we'd close the boxcars and hold handkerchiefs over our
noses. There was quite a discussion about this. What would happen to
the little infant? We was afraid it would smother. The mother was
holding the baby, but the baby seemed very still. The mother
screamed. We didn't know what the scream was about. After we reached
Washington, we found out that the baby had died going through the
tunnels."
JoAnne "there's also a story on page 38 about the Hoover Dam
containing loads of dead farmers who were potential competition for
the workers who got the job" Schmitz
-----------------------------------------------------------
There are emergency contraception pills that you can take
after you have had unprotected sex. They work up to three
days after intercourse. You don't have to wait to be sure
you're pregnant and then have an abortion.
For more information you can call 1-800-584-9911. Or check
the web site http://opr.princeton.edu/ec/ec.html.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Wilton
In <gQXx6HAJ...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> Bill Welch
<bi...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> writes:
>The original UL referred to an incident near Chinatown. The poster I
>was replying to made references to popular perception of Japanese
>culture. I expect it would be more useful for me to ask: Do US city
>inhabitants clearly distinguish between Chinese and other eastern
>Asian enclaves, like Japanese or Korean?
It depends on proximity and how much contact the individual
city-dweller has with the Asian community. A visitor from Iowa is not
likely to distinguish between Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. A native
San Franciscan is likely to, if for no other reason than he/she knows
that to get Thai food, one goes to the Thai neighborhoods, for Chinese
to Chinatown, for Korean food...
--Dave "Will Post for Food" Wilton
dwi...@ix.netcom.com
Steven Thornton
Kim Scheinberg (ik...@panix.com) wrote:
> That's like saying you rarely hear about NY's '6th Ave'[1]
> [1] Ave of the Americas is much better known
I've never heard _anyone_ who's been here in New York for longer than
eleven minutes refer to "Avenue of the Americas". It's just plain 'ol
Sixth Avenue except on tourist maps -- and even they call it "6th" as
often as not.
--
| Steve Thornton | New York | ste...@cnct.com | ste...@eskimo.com |
| Send 'subscribe indiepop-list Your Name' to list...@eskimo.com |
| TweeNet America http://www.eskimo.com/users/stevet/tweenet.html |
Andy Walton
In article <gQXx6HAJ...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk>, Bill Welch
<bi...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:The original UL referred to an incident near Chinatown. The poster I
:was replying to made references to popular perception of Japanese
:culture. I expect it would be more useful for me to ask: Do US city
:inhabitants clearly distinguish between Chinese and other eastern Asian
:enclaves, like Japanese or Korean?
:
:Obviously there will be distinct cultural differences between such
:groups.
Obviously. And in my experience, there's generally a clear distinction
between Chinese and Southeast Asian communities -- Atlanta doesn't have a
large, insular Chinese community, but we do have a large SE Asian
community in the northern suburb of Chamblee, now affectionately known as
Chambodia.
The distinction between Laotians, Cambodians, Vietnamese, and Thais is
generally NOT made, either from without or from within, unless they run
restaurants. There are no subdivisions, at keast not that are preceptible
to outsiders.
I have not seen insular, concentrated communities of Japanese or Koreans
-- maybe I've just missed them, or maybe Japanese immigration patterns
never really lent themselves to the formation of "Japantowns". Then again,
maybe those settlements existed on the West Coast, and were broken up by
the WWII internments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals
declaring us the nicest of the damned." --They Might Be Giants
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * att...@mindspring.com * http://www.mindspring.com/~atticus
Kim Scheinberg
ste...@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton) deserves a Nobel for
>Kim Scheinberg (ik...@panix.com) wrote:
>
>> That's like saying you rarely hear about NY's '6th Ave'[1]
>
>> [1] Ave of the Americas is much better known
>
>I've never heard _anyone_ who's been here in New York for longer than
>eleven minutes refer to "Avenue of the Americas". It's just plain 'ol
>Sixth Avenue except on tourist maps -- and even they call it "6th" as
>often as not.
Yes, my point exactly. Outside New York, people would recognize AotA more
easily than 6th Ave
I know of no neighborhood 'Russia-Town' but I sure know of Little Odessa.
(Yes, the one in Brooklyn)
kim "makes a nice shibboleth" scheinberg
Jeff Lanam
: In article <gQXx6HAJ...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk>, Bill Welch
: <bi...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: :The original UL referred to an incident near Chinatown. The poster I
: :was replying to made references to popular perception of Japanese
: :culture. I expect it would be more useful for me to ask: Do US city
: :inhabitants clearly distinguish between Chinese and other eastern Asian
: :enclaves, like Japanese or Korean?
: :
: :Obviously there will be distinct cultural differences between such
: :groups.
Andy Walton (att...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: Obviously. And in my experience, there's generally a clear distinction
: between Chinese and Southeast Asian communities -- Atlanta doesn't have a
: large, insular Chinese community, but we do have a large SE Asian
: community in the northern suburb of Chamblee, now affectionately known as
: Chambodia.
: The distinction between Laotians, Cambodians, Vietnamese, and Thais is
: generally NOT made, either from without or from within, unless they run
: restaurants. There are no subdivisions, at keast not that are preceptible
: to outsiders.
: I have not seen insular, concentrated communities of Japanese or Koreans
: -- maybe I've just missed them, or maybe Japanese immigration patterns
: never really lent themselves to the formation of "Japantowns". Then again,
: maybe those settlements existed on the West Coast, and were broken up by
: the WWII internments.
My $0.02. In San Jose, CA, there is no distinct "Chinatown", though
there is a "Japantown" and a "Little Saigon" (called thus by their
residents). Andy is correct that there are few Japantowns because of the
WW2 internment. After the Japanese (-Americans) were relocated, others
moved in. The San Jose Chinatown burned down early in this century.
Neither of the San Jose communities is as concentrated as the San
Francisco Chinatown.
--
Jeff Lanam lanam...@tandem.com
Tandem Computers, Inc. http://www.netgate.net/~jlanam
"All answers are replies. However, not all replies are answers."
-- Ta'Lon of the Narn, _Babylon 5_
Of course, these are my views.
Sean Willard
LWE...@prodigy.com (Judy Johnson) wrote:
|
| >Except I remember it as the woman smothering the chicken/child, not
| >wringing its neck. This same motif was used in a TV movie (methinks it
| >was titled "The Wall") on the Warsaw ghetto uprising, as well as in the
| >Tom Selleck movie "Quigly Down Under".
|
| >Wasn't this UL discussed on AFU not too long ago, with the general
| >concensus being that it was a UL thru-and-thru?
JoAnne Schmitz <jsch...@qis.net> writes:
| Sorry I missed this discussion. Wasn't this told about babies of
| Jewish and other hunted people during WWII? It reminds me of the
| story of the Spartan child and the fox.
Good old synchronicity. There was an essay in the Herald-Trib about a
week ago on sons and daughters of Holocaust survivors, and it was
implied that this sort of incident was not unknown. I'll have to see
if I've still got the issue around at home. The article would
certainly not suffice to prove that it ever happened, of course.
Sean ``Woman Asphyxiates Sons Tommy and Dick; Film At 11'' Willard
Joe McNally
In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960501...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>,
Kenneth Des-Jardins <jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Sorry if you've debunked this one already. I checked the FAQ to no avail.
>
> When I was in San Francisco recently a friend told me about his friend
> who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
> boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were not
> permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
A similar story used to be told of John Hume, a Northern Irish politician.
Many years ago, it was illegal to take hardback books on a flight from
England to Northern Ireland; John Hume was allegedly challenged about
taking a hardback on the plane with him, and in response ripped its covers
off.
--
Joe McNally, writer & master of Di-Mac
"Yesterday upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today -- perhaps he's from the CIA."
-----
Nothing in this post is necessarily the opinion of John Brown Publishing or Fortean Times. On a bad day, it might not even be mine.
ann logue
In article <4mi5t6$r...@news.txnet.net>, b4u...@txnet.net (JHudson) says:
>
>And...@world.std.com (Andrew S Goldstein) wrote:
>..>>>> Kenneth
>..>>>>Des-Jardins (jar...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
>..>>>>: who was on a bus in Chinatown when a woman carrying a live chicken
>..>>>>: boarded the bus. When the driver informed her that live animals were
>not
>..>>>>: permitted, she snapped the chicken's neck and took a seat.
>
Posting a follow-up to all this, from the City by the Bay:
1) I've never seen live chickens for sale in Chinatown. Some of
the stores have butchered chickens in the window; they are dead,
dead, dead (don't know about tumors or cysts, though).
2) There are several stores that sell live fish. Many of these have
signs in front with some variation of "food not pets" to prevent
tourists from gawking or to keep aquarists from stopping by to
replenish their tanks.
3) The bus lines that go through Chinatown go through the entire
city. I.E., a yuppie going home to Pacific Heights would take the
number 1 California bus or the 30 Stockton through Chinatown (which
is actually quite small). So, such an incident would not be isolated
to a small subculture spied upon by an adventuring tourist, but rather
office gossip the next morning. I take the California line
infrequently and never take the Stockton bus, but have never,
ever heard of anyone trying to take a live chicken on board. I have
seen people bring multiple bags of foul-smelling food, however.
4) A Chinese who was so fresh from the boat as to bring a live
chicken on board Muni probably would not speak any English, thus would
not understand the bus driver's request.
5) For that matter, there never seems to be empty seats on the
California and Stockton street busses, so the "wrung its neck and
took her seat" part reeks of falsehood.
6) Finally, Muni drivers are notoriously nasty (except for the few
on the cable car lines). A more believable version of the story, to
a San Francisco resident, would have the bus driver wringing the
chicken's neck; the bus driver refusing to go further until the
woman who had no idea what he was saying got off the bus, causing
the entire bus to sit for half an hour; the bus driver calling the
cops, who arrested the woman and then were sued for violating her
civil rights; or a boycott of Muni by the entire Chinese-American
community to protest this gross disrespect of the poor immigrant
woman's ethnic heritage.
Mark this story False.
Annie
Chris Cannon
In article <4mhrl7$k...@jeeves.usfca.edu>, Chris Borg <bo...@ac.usfca.edu> wrote:
> Ya know I did not see Hiltler blow
>his brains out...but I bet its true.
Motto! Motto!
Chris "who is this hiltler fellow anyway?" Cannon
--
--
=================
can...@netcom.com
Derek Tearne
In article <4mi5t6$r...@news.txnet.net>, JHudson <b4u...@txnet.net> wrote:
>And...@world.std.com (Andrew S Goldstein) wrote:
>
>an Aeroflot flight. He used a long knife to slit his goat's throat.
>
>This was one of my top five favorite stories of all time!! Man, this is worse
>than finding out about Santa...
Santa slit one of his reindeers throats to get onto an Aeroflot flight?
Shame on Santa.
Derek "I wonder if the chef on the plane asked how he wanted it done?" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. -- http://webservices.comp.vuw.ac.nz/artsLink/ManyHands/
Some of the more environmentally aware dinosaurs were worried about the
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
JoAnne Schmitz
lo...@vwco.com (ann logue) wrote:
>2) There are several stores that sell live fish. Many of these have
>signs in front with some variation of "food not pets" to prevent
>tourists from gawking or to keep aquarists from stopping by to
>replenish their tanks.
Why would they mind? I've bought feeder goldfish for stocking an
outdoor pond. Much cheaper than the "pet" kind which were exactly the
same, but not 10 for a dollar.
JoAnne "has no pond now" Schmitz
Ted Samsel
A friend who was a dog handler in the Army in Viet Nam & Korea said
they lost a lot of dogs because the allied Korean troops (Korean
Rangers & Marines in Nam , on the DMZ in Korea) would steal them
and eat them. Dog is a favored Korean dish.
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net *1996* Year of the Accordion~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Home of the brave, land of the free,
I don't want to be mistreated by no bourgoisie."
Huddie Ledbetter
Don Erickson
se...@panix.com (Sean Willard) wrote:
> Sean ``Woman Asphyxiates Sons Tommy and Dick; Film At 11'' Willard
So we can then assume that she didn't have a favorite, after all?
-Don 'does the chicken story go here?' Erickson
HES Duffy
Sean Willard (se...@panix.com) wrote:
: LWE...@prodigy.com (Judy Johnson) wrote:
: |
<Stuff about people accidentally smothering children to keep them quiet>
: Good old synchronicity. There was an essay in the Herald-Trib about a
: week ago on sons and daughters of Holocaust survivors, and it was
: implied that this sort of incident was not unknown. I'll have to see
: if I've still got the issue around at home. The article would
: certainly not suffice to prove that it ever happened, of course.
IIRC, there was an episode of "Monkey" (the chinese? japanese?
mythological serialisation) many years ago which included the story of a
mother who smothered her child while hiding from a monster of some sort,
and, I think, killed herself in horror at what she'd done. I think they
met her ghost or something. At any rate, obviously a relatively common
story.
H
j...@os2bbs.com
In article <4mi5t6$r...@news.txnet.net>, JHudson <b4u...@txnet.net> wrote:
>
>Awwww. When I read about it (in Reader's Digest... Again!) it was a
>shepherd on >an Aeroflot flight. He used a long knife to slit his goat's
>throat.
>
>This was one of my top five favorite stories of all time!! Man, this is
>worse than finding out about Santa...
Wasn't a 747 crash in India a few years ago caused by Moslem pilgrims to
Mecca trying to light a cooking fire inside the airplane?
------------------------------ "If you once forfeit the confidence of
John Varela j...@os2bbs.com your fellow citizens, you can never regain
------------------------------ their respect and esteem." -- A. Lincoln
Theron Stanford
In article <4mldu7$k...@gazette.loc3.tandem.com>,
Jeff Lanam <je...@tower.tandem.com> wrote:
>Neither of the San Jose communities is as concentrated as the San
>Francisco Chinatown.
This poster, as well as previous ones, labors under the idea that there is
just *one* Chinatown in SF. While it is true that there is a section of
the city known as Chinatown with the requisite [to the uninitiated]
foreign smells, narrow lanes, discount stores, and restaurants, there are
many Chinese enclaves scattered throughout the city, including one
centered around Clement and the twentysomething avenues, and one centered
around Irving/Judah and the tensomething avenues [but I don't have a map
handy and could be numerically off on either].
Just to set the record straight.
Theron
Sean Willard
I wrote
| Good old synchronicity. There was an essay in the Herald-Trib about a
| week ago on sons and daughters of Holocaust survivors, and it was
| implied that this sort of incident was not unknown. I'll have to see
| if I've still got the issue around at home. The article would
| certainly not suffice to prove that it ever happened, of course.
Here we go. International Herald Tribune, Friday, April 19.
--- begin quote ---
Children of Holocaust Survivors Remember in Their Own Way
By Helen Motro
KFAR SHMARYAHU, Israel -- On Holocaust Day, this past Tuesday, I
watched no atrocity replays. I bowed my head at no ceremonies.
Instead, I sat all evening among my friends, three other children of
war survivors. They are new friends, but we have a long past.
...
No, most of us had parents who loved too much, who smothered us with
their care, their solicitude, their ever-present, all-enveloping
anxiety. And yet we all know stories of mothers in the war, in
hiding or in flight, who strangled their own babies to drown out the
cries, knowing that an infant's wails would give everyone away. And
these scenarios hover in the back of our minds, and in the back of
our parents' minds. We can never escape the question nagging at the
edges of our consciences: ``How far would I have gone?''
--- end quote ---
So it's clearly implied that this was a deliberate killing, not
accidental (as HES Duffy said in its summary); but equally clearly,
it's entirely apocryphal. No telling if this ever actually happened.
And whose bright idea was it that the chicken-killing Asian story
derived from that M*A*S*H episode, anyway? The two have nothing in
common, save in the most superficial elements (the killer being an
Asian woman, the locale a bus).
Sean ``I have no joke here, I just like saying KFAR SHMARYAHU'' Willard
Edward Rice
In article <fortean3-060...@fortean3.easynet.co.uk>,
fort...@easynet.co.uk (Joe McNally) wrote:
> A similar story used to be told of John Hume, a Northern Irish
politician.
> Many years ago, it was illegal to take hardback books on a flight from
> England to Northern Ireland...
Because they could be used as weapons in a street riot?
Stewart Brinn
se...@panix.com (Sean Willard) wrote:
> Good old synchronicity. There was an essay in the Herald-Trib about a
> week ago on sons and daughters of Holocaust survivors, and it was
> implied that this sort of incident was not unknown. I'll have to see
> if I've still got the issue around at home. The article would
> certainly not suffice to prove that it ever happened, of course.
Wasn't this part of the story in the final episode of M*A*S*H?
Stewart Brinn
s-b...@dial.pipex.com
Charles Bishop
In article <4miba7$b...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Dave Wilton <dwi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>It depends on proximity and how much contact the individual
>city-dweller has with the Asian community. A visitor from Iowa is not
>likely to distinguish between Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. A native
>San Franciscan is likely to, if for no other reason than he/she knows
>that to get Thai food, one goes to the Thai neighborhoods, for Chinese
>to Chinatown, for Korean food...
>
Since someone mentioned the racist aspects of the story-
Isn't this ". . .ist"[1] to suggest that someone from Iowa would climb down off
the turnip truck, shake the straw from his hair, the dust from his overalls,
nudge his companion and say "Look maw, furriners. Wonder what kind they be?" ?
Also, the Thai restaraunts and not confined to Thai neighborhoods at least in
the SF Bay, LA and Seattle neighborhoods.
[1] Iowist ?
Charles, been there onct, kinda purty" Bishop
spectre
In article <4mnvgt$i...@netty.york.ac.uk>, hes...@york.ac.uk says...
>
>Sean Willard (se...@panix.com) wrote:
>: LWE...@prodigy.com (Judy Johnson) wrote:
>: |
>
><Stuff about people accidentally smothering children to keep them quiet>
>
>: week ago on sons and daughters of Holocaust survivors, and it was
>: implied that this sort of incident was not unknown. I'll have to see
>: if I've still got the issue around at home. The article would
>: certainly not suffice to prove that it ever happened, of course.
>
>mythological serialisation) many years ago which included the story of a
>mother who smothered her child while hiding from a monster of some sort,
>and, I think, killed herself in horror at what she'd done. I think they
>met her ghost or something. At any rate, obviously a relatively common
>story.
>
>
> H
>
Andrew McFarland
In article <fortean3-060...@fortean3.easynet.co.uk>
fort...@easynet.co.uk (Joe McNally) writes:
>A similar story used to be told of John Hume, a Northern Irish politician.
>Many years ago, it was illegal to take hardback books on a flight from
>England to Northern Ireland; John Hume was allegedly challenged about
>taking a hardback on the plane with him, and in response ripped its covers
>off.
Does anybody know why? I fly Belfast / London and back at least 3 times a
year, and I thought the current security arrangements in heathrow were
strange, but a hardback book prohibition???
Andy
--
AA McFarland
Churchill College.
http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/home/aam20/home.html
Johnson
Probably because you can cut out the center of the pages & have a very
good place to smuggle things since the book (unopened) looks the same. I
know because I know some one who has a book with a gun in it so they can
have it accesible in the house without the gun laying out in the open.
There is an old Robert Mitchem western movie where he is pretending to
be a preacher but is really a hitman with his gun in his Bible.
Avi Jacobson
Stewart Brinn wrote:
>
> se...@panix.com (Sean Willard) wrote:
>
> > Good old synchronicity. There was an essay in the Herald-Trib about a
> > week ago on sons and daughters of Holocaust survivors, and it was
> > implied that this sort of incident was not unknown. I'll have to see
> > if I've still got the issue around at home. The article would
> > certainly not suffice to prove that it ever happened, of course.
>
>
> Stewart Brinn
> s-b...@dial.pipex.com
This precise incident (with a child, not a chicken), did occur during
a Maalot terrorist attack in Israel, about twenty years ago. Terrorists
had invaded an apartment building in a Northern Israeli town, and were
killing off the residents of each apartment as the came up the stairs.
One women hid out in what is known in Israel as a _boydem_, a small
attic built into a false ceiling, with her child. When she could not
hush the screaming child, she suffocated her, thus saving her own life
and the life of her older child.
The case is well known in Israel, and is by no means a legend of any
type.
--
Avi Jacobson, Audio Lingual Consultant | When an idea is wanting,
Home Page: | a word can always be
http://www.netvision.net.il/php/avi_jaco | found to take its place.
email: avi_...@netvision.net.il | -- Goethe
Sean Willard
| Stewart Brinn wrote:
| >
| > Wasn't this part of the story in the final episode of M*A*S*H?
Isn't this where we came in?
Avi Jacobson <avi_...@netvision.net.il> writes:
| This precise incident (with a child, not a chicken), did occur during
| a Maalot terrorist attack in Israel, about twenty years ago. Terrorists
...
| The case is well known in Israel, and is by no means a legend of any
| type.
Don't be so quick to dismiss it. I would say it's a legend with one
true instance. The column I quoted from said ``and yet we all know
stories of mothers in'' World War II. That there was apparently an
actual occurrence in Israel twenty years ago does not mean that the
earlier stories are not of legendary nature.
Sean
Jerry Watson
This theme is from a short story by Ambrose Bierce. Ditto with the story of the man who
dissappeared while walking across a field in full view of his wife. The funniest short
story every written is Bierce's "Cargo of Cat."
--
Sir Jerry
Archangel of UFO Zealot Destruction
Boardmember afa-b
lifetime member of the art bell internet fan club
project: conspiring to end the conspiracy theories
plan: shoving the truth up your nose
confirmed 5/11/96
by Tim Hill, Lord Supreme Being
and ruling Monarch of afa-b
************************
Please don't spam to alt.fan.art-bell.
We are talking about some serious BS here...
JDW
Jerry Watson
Avi Jacobson wrote:
> One women hid out in what is known in Israel as a _boydem_, a small
> attic built into a false ceiling, with her child. When she could not
> hush the screaming child, she suffocated her, thus saving her own life
> and the life of her older child.
>
> type.
As I said before, the origional for of this story that I know of is a short story by
Ambrose Bierce. Bierce died about the time of the Mexican revolution.
--
Sir Jerry
Archangel of UFO Zealot Destruction
Boardmember afa-b
lifetime member of the art bell internet fan club
project: conspiring to end the conspiracy theories
plan: shoving the truth up your nose
Please don't spam to alt.fan.art-bell.
cper...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
In article <319E91...@jill.reno.nv.us>, Jerry Watson <jwa...@jill.reno.nv.us> writes:
> Avi Jacobson wrote:
>> One women hid out in what is known in Israel as a _boydem_, a small
>> attic built into a false ceiling, with her child. When she could not
>> hush the screaming child, she suffocated her, thus saving her own life
>> and the life of her older child.
>>
>> The case is well known in Israel, and is by no means a legend of any
>> type.
>
>
> As I said before, the origional for of this story that I know of is a short story by
> Ambrose Bierce. Bierce died about the time of the Mexican revolution.
>
>
`Smothering a child while trying to keep it quiet' - it did happen. It was
tragic, but true. Not an urban legend at all.
It isn't hard to smother a baby (not that I've tried). Some people think a lot
of `crib deaths' are really accidental or deliberate smotherings. Although
some infants do die in their beds for no apparent reason.
Whatever Bierce wrote, there was an Israeli mother who accidentally
smothered her child.
Cheryl
Sean Willard
<cper...@kean.ucs.mun.ca> writes:
| It HAPPENED, Jerry. See Avi's note, which you quoted.
|
| `Smothering a child while trying to keep it quiet' - it did happen. It was
| tragic, but true. Not an urban legend at all.
Cheryl, as I wrote in response to Avi's post, the (alleged) fact that
there was such an incident in the last 20 years in Israel has little
or no bearing on its status as an urban legend. The story has been
told as happening in World War II, and likely for many years before
that. If even half the purported incidents were true, then we might
have a case for its not being an urban legend.
And Jerry, because Ambrose Bierce used such an incident in a work of
fiction scarcely means that he invented it. Folklore, urban or not,
has been a rich lode for writers since time immemorial.
Sean ``Mom always liked _both_ of us better than poor Harry'' Willard
Harry MF Teasley
Sean Willard bequeathed:
> Sean ``Mom always liked _both_ of us better than poor Harry'' Willard
No she didn't!!1!!1! I mean doesn't!!!1!! I never got smothered, she
only lurks the froup and occasioJKNB%(*YDGB(U623nB<JSF(*&$@
(*&#%h
NO CARRIER
stevet
cper...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:
: `Smothering a child while trying to keep it quiet' - it did happen. It was
: tragic, but true. Not an urban legend at all.
I've heard a story about the Nez Perce American Indians (remember Chief
Joseph and "I will fight no more forever"?). Supposedly when they were
running away from the US troops, they would stop babies from crying by
simply pinching their noses shut. Baby has a choice between crying and
breathing -- they chose breathing. The Nez Perce eluded the Army for a
long time.
I have no idea if the story is true or if the technique works. If it
does, why did these other mothers smother their babes?
--
| Steve Thornton | ste...@cnct.com | ste...@eskimo.com | New York |
| Send 'subscribe indiepop-list Your Name' to list...@eskimo.com |
| Tweenet US: http://www.eskimo.com/www/users/stevet/tweenet.html|
Alison Williams
it was on an episode of Monkey too. (only that time it was to save the
village from a monster, I think, it was a loonng time ago ...)
love,
alison
Cindy Kandolf
| tragic, but true. Not an urban legend at all.
An urban legend does NOT have to be false. There can be such a thing
as a true occurence of an urban legend. What makes it a UL is the
fact that it didn't happen AS OFTEN and IN AS MANY PLACES as the
legend would have it. Okay, you're saying that it happened somewhere
in Israel in fairly recent times. But stories about this same thing
have been told for many years; some of them at least are pre-World War
II. And they happen all over the world, wherever there is a war or
some other reason that a person is in danger of being caught. That's what
makes it a legend.
| It isn't hard to smother a baby (not that I've tried).
If you haven't tried, then why do you say it...?
| Some people think a lot
| of `crib deaths' are really accidental or deliberate smotherings.
Those people, we can then conclude, don't know what they're talking
about. In most places in the developed world, any unexplained death
is investigated by police as though it were a murder. Forensic
experts know what to look for when a person has been smothered. If
there are any signs of smothering, accidental or deliberate, the cause
of death will _not_ be registered as SIDS. Crib death, by definition,
does not involve smothering.
| Whatever Bierce wrote, there was an Israeli mother who accidentally
| smothered her child.
If you want to convince people of that, it's relatively simple: give
us some identifying details, like maybe someplace we could find a
newspaper account of the incident. But whether it happened or not,
this story remains an urban legend - the number of places and times
where it allegedly happened far outnumber the actual occurrances.
- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
ci...@nvg.unit.no Trondheim, Norway
The flodweb: http://www.nvg.unit.no/~cindy/
Follow the links to the Bilingual Families Web page!
Matthew Rabuzzi
Everyone knows who Tintin is, right? The intrepid young reporter/sleuth,
star of the _bandes dessine'es_ (the *other* B&D: comic strip narratives)
by the Belgian, Herge' (pseudonym for M. Mumble).
In _King Ottokar's Sceptre_ (copyright 1947, Engl transl 1958), he's in
pursuit of a suspected malefactor from the tiny Balkan country of Syldavia.
When the man disappears inside a restaurant run by a countryman, Tintin
decides to wait him out, artlessly ordering the first thing he sees on the
menu and sitting down. At times when the waiter/proprietor is out of the room,
Tintin manages to gather a few clues over the course of his meal.
He does not, however, notice that his beloved dog Snowy (French: Milou)
is missing.
The prop. cordially (but duplicitously) presents his bill, saying,
"I hope you enjoyed your meal, sir?"
"Very much, thank you. Your 'szlaszeck' was excellent. How do you make it?"
Blandly: "Ah, it's one of our specialities: the hind leg of a young dog,
in Syldavian sauce."
Giant drops of sweat/alarm spring from Tintin's head over the next three
panels, as he calls in panic in the empty restaurant, "Snowy! SNOWY!" --
who finally appears, licking his chops, saying "?"
As the incensed Tintin marches out, the proprietor says to himself,
"Ha! ha! ha! We shan't see him again in a hurry!"
(Of course, he gets his comeuppance when he enters the kitchen to discover
that Snowy has made a fine meal, and mess of broken dishes and gnawed roasts.)
Matthew "le chien enchai^ne'" Rabuzzi
Matthew P Wiener
In article <4nqdll$1...@gazette.loc3.tandem.com>, rabuzzi@patch (Matthew Rabuzzi) writes:
>Everyone knows who Tintin is, right? The intrepid young reporter/sleuth,
>star of the _bandes dessine'es_ (the *other* B&D: comic strip narratives)
>by the Belgian, Herge' (pseudonym for M. Mumble).
Not everybody knows who Groo is, though, but he is a star in his own
comic book. In one of the earliest Marvel GROO issues, Groo comes
to the conclusion that the restaurant meal he just ate was his dog
Rufferto.
"What do you mean, slow of mind?"
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Matthew P Wiener
In article <4nq84o$6...@verdi.nethelp.no>, cindy@nvg (Cindy Kandolf) writes:
>cper...@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>And they happen all over the world, wherever there is a war or some
>other reason that a person is in danger of being caught.
I'm not sure what the point of this sentence is. Of course the story
is told when there is concern about being caught.
>| Some people think a lot of `crib deaths' are really accidental or
>| deliberate smotherings.
>Those people, we can then conclude, don't know what they're talking
>about. In most places in the developed world, any unexplained death
>is investigated by police as though it were a murder.
Calling it SIDS explains it, right?
>Forensic experts know what to look for when a person has been smothered.
>If there are any signs of smothering, accidental or deliberate, the cause
>of death will _not_ be registered as SIDS. Crib death, by definition,
>does not involve smothering.
It's not always so obvious. With rather horrible irony, the "holotype"
case of SIDS has been rediagnosed as murder, about a year or two ago.
Sorry, I do not recall the references. It was in NYT and some of the
major medical journals.
Diamond
In article <4nq84o$6...@verdi.nethelp.no>,
Cindy Kandolf <ci...@nvg.unit.no> wrote:
>cper...@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>If you haven't tried, then why do you say it...?
>
>| Some people think a lot
>| of `crib deaths' are really accidental or deliberate smotherings.
>
>Those people, we can then conclude, don't know what they're talking
>about. In most places in the developed world, any unexplained death
>is investigated by police as though it were a murder. Forensic
>experts know what to look for when a person has been smothered. If
>there are any signs of smothering, accidental or deliberate, the cause
>of death will _not_ be registered as SIDS. Crib death, by definition,
>does not involve smothering.
I seem to remember, however, that a year or two ago there was a study
released arguing that a large proportions of SIDS cases were in fact
accidental smotherings. I don't have the reference because I heard
about it through the popular press rather than through a journal article,
but the basic message was that the old 'put-the-baby-on-its-stomach-
to-prevent-inhalation-of-vomit' advice was wrong; putting the baby
on its stomach to prevent vomit aspiration often results in the baby
getting its face stuck in the mattress and suffocating on the CO2
from its own exhalations. Current thinking says that the baby should
be placed on its side, avoiding both problems, and there are even
special pillows for sale that help parents prop infants in this
position. If anyone feels a burning need for a citation, I'll try to
track one down.
I assume that if it had been obvious that suffocation cases were getting
lumped in with SIDS deaths, this wouldn't have been announced as a new
finding. Perhaps this mistake is rarely made *now*, but if I remember
correctly, SIDS is attributed to young infants 'forgetting' to breathe.
Since presumably in both cases it's lack of oxygen that kills the baby,
I would think it'd be difficult to distinguish between 'true' SIDS
and smothering, either accidental or deliberate. If my facts are
wrong, I'd be interested in knowing what is currently thought to be
the cause of SIDS and how it can be told apart from smothering by
forensic scientists.
--Diamond
Ian A. York
In article <4nqp5u$e...@news.duke.edu>, Diamond <dia...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>
>wrong, I'd be interested in knowing what is currently thought to be
>the cause of SIDS and how it can be told apart from smothering by
>forensic scientists.
I'd say (from my fairly cursory view of the literature on this) that
anyone who says they know what causes SIDS is wrong. There are scads of
theories, none of which has a majority of adherents and all of which have
evidence against as well as for them. Seems to me (and several sets of
authors) the most likely theory is that there is no single cause, but that
multiple syndromes are resulting in the same symptom.
I don't think (I think I disagree with Cindy on this) that forensic
scientists could clearly differentiate smothering from SIDS, but I'm
hesitant to be too dogmatic on it. Several of the review articles I have
in front of me include as possible causes of SIDS apneas, CO2 buildup, and
so forth, which would look essentially similar to smothering, I think.
A recent largish study (Klonoff-Cohen HS. Edelstein SL.
A case-control study of routine and death scene sleep position and sudden
infant death syndrome in Southern California.
JAMA. 273(10):790-4, 1995) did not find that sleep position made any
difference in the frequency of SIDS, but was cautious in making
recommendations. ("Routine prone sleep position was not associated with
an increased risk of SIDS in this study population. The results need to be
confirmed with other parents of SIDS infants interviewed before the height
of publicity regarding prone sleep position in the United States.")
Moreover, as mentioned, the prototype SIDS case has recently been
suggested to be a case of child abuse (though I can't find the cite for
this: I think I ran across it mentioned in Journal of the American Medical
Association a few months ago). If I recall correctly, though, the case in
retrospect would not meet the current definitions of SIDS - but I may be
confusing it with one of several cases of Munchausens Syndrome By Proxy.
It seems likely that quite a few deaths termed as SIDS have been due to
child abuse, but these remain a minority:
Emery JL.
Child abuse, sudden infant death syndrome, and unexpected infant death
American Journal of Diseases of Children. 147(10):1097-100, 1993
Abstract
There is now evidence, from a variety of approaches, that indicate
that between one tenth and one fifth of children currently diagnosed as
cases of sudden infant death syndrome are not natural deaths. There is
also equally strong evidence, where the possibility of filicide has been
explored, that the majority of children diagnosed as cases of sudden
infant death syndrome do die of natural causes.
It looks to me as if there has been a relatively recent trend toward more
careful evaluation of SIDS with regard to abuse:
Distinguishing sudden infant death syndrome from child abuse fatalities.
Committee on Child Abuse and Neglect. American Academy of Pediatrics.
Pediatrics. 94(1):124-6, 1994
A doctor faced with an apparent case of SIDS must face an awful dilemma
in deciding whether and how far to pursue the possibility that the
grieving parents are responsible for the death.
Ian "no jokes" York
--
Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Christine Malcom
On 20 May 1996, Diamond wrote:
> Cindy Kandolf <ci...@nvg.unit.no> wrote:
> >cper...@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> >If you haven't tried, then why do you say it...?
> >
> >| Some people think a lot
> >| of `crib deaths' are really accidental or deliberate smotherings.
> >
> >Those people, we can then conclude, don't know what they're talking
> >about. In most places in the developed world, any unexplained death
> >is investigated by police as though it were a murder. Forensic
> >experts know what to look for when a person has been smothered. If
> >there are any signs of smothering, accidental or deliberate, the cause
> >of death will _not_ be registered as SIDS. Crib death, by definition,
> >does not involve smothering.
Yes and no. Crib death (now called Sudden Infant Death Syndrome SIDS) is
a non-diagnosis, or rather a diagnosis of exclusion that is given as the
cause of death in a sudden and unexpected death during sleep of a
previously healthy child under the age of 1 amid unremarkable
circumstances when a complete autopsy fails to find another cause of
death. So yes, if smothering was obvious in the autopsy, the physician
would not attribute the death to SIDS. It is not true, however that
deliberate sometering is always detectable by forensics teams petechial
hemorhaging of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage, head and neck, and
the whites of the eyes are suspicious but not necessarily diagnostic of
smothering.
> I seem to remember, however, that a year or two ago there was a study
> released arguing that a large proportions of SIDS cases were in fact
> accidental smotherings. I don't have the reference because I heard
"Large proportions" is not true, but most likely some accidental smotherings
have been classed as SIDS.
> I assume that if it had been obvious that suffocation cases were getting
> lumped in with SIDS deaths, this wouldn't have been announced as a new
> finding. Perhaps this mistake is rarely made *now*, but if I remember
> correctly, SIDS is attributed to young infants 'forgetting' to breathe.
The name for this is 'infant apnea' and it's a fairly common problem and
there are monitors to alert parents to it. Infant apnea would be listed
as the cause of death if it occured in the presence of a witness, but
many SIDS deaths are most likely cases of infant apnea in children for
whom no previous problem had been diagnosed.
> Since presumably in both cases it's lack of oxygen that kills the baby,
> I would think it'd be difficult to distinguish between 'true' SIDS
> and smothering, either accidental or deliberate. If my facts are
> wrong, I'd be interested in knowing what is currently thought to be
> the cause of SIDS and how it can be told apart from smothering by
> forensic scientists.
See above.
References
Kirschner, RH and Wilson, HL "Fatal Child Abuse: The
Pathologist's Perspective" in Reece, RM ed _Child Abuse: Medical
Diagnosis and Management_ (Philadelphia, 1994), Chapter 14.
Also from Kirschner's notes for his Pathology 350 class May 5,1995 here
at the dear old U of C.
Christine Malcom-Department of Anthropology
Star Radiant
Christine Malcom <cm...@kimbark.uchicago.edu> writes:
>On 20 May 1996, Diamond wrote:
[snip]
Crib death (now called Sudden Infant Death Syndrome SIDS) is
>a non-diagnosis, or rather a diagnosis of exclusion that is given as the
>cause of death in a sudden and unexpected death during sleep of a
>previously healthy child under the age of 1 amid unremarkable
>circumstances when a complete autopsy fails to find another cause of
>death. So yes, if smothering was obvious in the autopsy, the physician
>would not attribute the death to SIDS. It is not true, however that
>deliberate sometering is always detectable by forensics teams petechial
>hemorhaging of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage, head and neck, and
>the whites of the eyes are suspicious but not necessarily diagnostic of
>smothering.
[...]
>> I assume that if it had been obvious that suffocation cases were getting
>> lumped in with SIDS deaths, this wouldn't have been announced as a new
>> finding. Perhaps this mistake is rarely made *now*, but if I remember
>> correctly, SIDS is attributed to young infants 'forgetting' to breathe.
>The name for this is 'infant apnea' and it's a fairly common problem and
>there are monitors to alert parents to it. Infant apnea would be listed
>as the cause of death if it occured in the presence of a witness, but
>many SIDS deaths are most likely cases of infant apnea in children for
>whom no previous problem had been diagnosed.
>> Since presumably in both cases it's lack of oxygen that kills the baby,
>> I would think it'd be difficult to distinguish between 'true' SIDS
>> and smothering, either accidental or deliberate. If my facts are
>> wrong, I'd be interested in knowing what is currently thought to be
>> the cause of SIDS and how it can be told apart from smothering by
>> forensic scientists.
>See above.
>References
[...]
A study at a Canadian university (I think it was McGill) released some
interesting findings earlier this month on the subject of SIDS. By examining
autopsy reports for infant deaths attributed to SIDS, these researchers
discovered that a significant proportion of these infants had a certain type
of brain deformity. These findings were of a tentative nature, though, any
definite link between such an abnormality and SIDS has yet to be established.
If I find any concrete sources to cite on this one, I'll post...
S.R.
Lee S. Bumgarner
> As I said before, the origional for of this story that I know of is a short story by
> Ambrose Bierce. Bierce died about the time of the Mexican revolution.
Waitasecond. We don't _know_ WHEN he died. I seem to recall he just kinda
wandered across the border into Mexico, never to be seen from again.
-l
"He'd be, oh 190 right now."
-l
---
----> Undertoad<---
http://falcon.jmu.edu/~bumgarls/
"God is a concept / by which we measure our pain." -John Lennon
"Klaatu barada nictow"
ian.m...@treebranch.com
> Blandly: "Ah, it's one of our specialities: the hind leg of a young
> dog,
> in Syldavian sauce."
> that Snowy has made a fine meal, and mess of broken dishes and
> gnawed roasts.)
Snowy; a cannibal? Say it isn't so!
-Ion
Matthew Rabuzzi
<ian.m...@treebranch.com> writes:
: > Blandly: "Ah, it's one of our specialities: the hind leg of a young
: > dog, in Syldavian sauce."
: > ...that Snowy has made a fine meal, and mess of broken dishes and
: > gnawed roasts.)
:
: Snowy; a cannibal? Say it isn't so!
It isn't.
The Syldavian proprietor was, I think, lying in order to instill fear
in Tintin, warn him not to involve himself further. Besides, the meat
Snowy left on the kitchen floor is bloody great joints and hamhocks,
bigger 'n a dog's leg.
Matthew "however, Captain Haddock does eat fish!" Rabuzzi
Homme A. Piest
rab...@patch.tandem.com (Matthew Rabuzzi) wrote:
>
>Everyone knows who Tintin is, right? The intrepid young reporter/sleuth,
>star of the _bandes dessine'es_ (the *other* B&D: comic strip narratives)
>by the Belgian, Herge' (pseudonym for M. Mumble).
I'm not sure whether this is some kind of inside joke or not, but
you're wrong about the "M.Mumble". Herge was the pseudonym of late
Georges Remi. It's a phonetic representation of the reverse of his
initials: had he spoken English instead of French, his pseudonym would
have been 'Archie'.
Homme Piest
pi...@pobox.leidenuniv.nl
Matthew Rabuzzi
Homme A. Piest <pi...@pobox.leidenuniv.nl> writes:
This is exactly the type of response I was soliciting by putting in an
obviously faked name. Actually, the use of "mumble" is not so much
faked, nor an inside joke, as a Usenet convention when one doesn't know
a particular detail: as to mumble is to speak indistinctly, without moving
the lips as much as one should, and in a lowered voice volume, this written
analogue conveys one's uncertainty. (Actually, it's one's *certainty*
that of a lack of knowledge.)
Anyway, thank you for filling in this lacuna, not just of Herge's real name,
but of how he derived the one from the other. Rather like Louchebem argot,
isn't it?
One additional fact on this Tintin story. I had posted that the Cooked Pet
episode took place
: >In _King Ottokar's Sceptre_ (copyright 1947,
However, the actual writing (and initial publication) of the story may have
been ten or more years earlier. I say this because _The Blue Lotus_,
an earlier one in the series, is copyright 1946 but the "Historical Note"
on the colophon page says,
"first published...in the magazine _Le Petit Vingtieme_ in Brussels in 1934-5".
Matthew "does tintinnabulation ring a bell?" Rabuzzi
Lee Rudolph
rab...@patch.tandem.com (Matthew Rabuzzi) writes:
>Actually, the use of "mumble" is not so much
>faked, nor an inside joke, as a Usenet convention when one doesn't know
>a particular detail: as to mumble is to speak indistinctly, without moving
>the lips as much as one should, and in a lowered voice volume, this written
>analogue conveys one's uncertainty.
A while back (c. 1965) I heard, somehow, that IBM had included a similar
feature earlyish in its history of expanding the range of what could be
typed on a typewriter; I think the story was attached specifically
to the "Executive" typewriter (which had variable-width letters and
several different widths of spaces, yielding a "proportional font"
as it were, with which anyone could achieve justification after a
rough draft, and--I am sure--experts on the first try), but it may
have gone along with the first Selectrics and their "golfballs",
or even, I suppose, with Typ-Its (which weren't an IBM product).
According to the story, for cases in which you didn't know the right
spelling of a correspondent's name, IBM had included a "smudge" key.
(This seems to place the story before the era of carbon ribbons,
doesn't it?) Now I wonder if this was an IBM urban legend after all.
ObAFU: Martin Gardner reports that, already in the 1940s or
early 1950s, L. Ron Hubbard had his IBM typewriter customized in
various ways to facilitate his mind-numbing writing style^Wspeed.
In particular, he had single keys for common words like "and" and
"the", and "a" too, no doubt. (He also typed on a continuous roll
of paper. No, wider than that.)
ObAUE: None, really. I'm just crossposting (with followups back
to AFU) because of the IBM expertise thereabouts.
Lee "son of QWERTY" Rudolph
Tony Lima
Lee Rudolph <lrud...@panix.com> writes:
LR> rab...@patch.tandem.com (Matthew Rabuzzi) writes:
LR> >Actually, the use of "mumble" is not so much
LR> >faked, nor an inside joke, as a Usenet convention when one doesn't know
LR> >a particular detail: as to mumble is to speak indistinctly, without moving
LR> >the lips as much as one should, and in a lowered voice volume, this written
LR> >analogue conveys one's uncertainty.
LR> A while back (c. 1965) I heard, somehow, that IBM had included a similar
LR> feature earlyish in its history of expanding the range of what could be
LR> typed on a typewriter; I think the story was attached specifically
LR> to the "Executive" typewriter (which had variable-width letters and
LR> several different widths of spaces, yielding a "proportional font"
LR> as it were, with which anyone could achieve justification after a
LR> rough draft, and--I am sure--experts on the first try), but it may
LR> have gone along with the first Selectrics and their "golfballs",
LR> or even, I suppose, with Typ-Its (which weren't an IBM product).
LR> According to the story, for cases in which you didn't know the right
LR> spelling of a correspondent's name, IBM had included a "smudge" key.
LR> (This seems to place the story before the era of carbon ribbons,
LR> doesn't it?) Now I wonder if this was an IBM urban legend after all.
Hmmmm. I actually used an IBM Executive (typewriter, that is)
for a couple of years and don't recall any such key. Of
course, if you managed to press the S and A keys
simultaneously, you could get a pretty good approximation.
The Executive didn't have the nice Selectric ball. - Tony
"make what you will of that last sentence" Lima
* RM 1.31 2547 *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: tony...@toadhall.com (Tony Lima)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------