Circle Jerks: Real or Folklore

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Don Whittington

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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In article <7vbbfq$3id$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Nathan F. Miller
<Nat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> My fifty-something uncle from rural North-West Pennsylvania swears
> that when he was a youth, there were "always" circle-jerks in the
> weight room of the local YMCA; that "everyone" knew about it (I wonder
> if "everyone" really means just the menfolk); that nobody thought there
> was anything "gay" about it. I have heard similar stories from other
> older guys, one of them saying he was peer-pressured to join in on the
> grounds that the other guys would say he was "sissy" in he didn't.(!)
>
> Nathan "and anyone who objects is obviously a commiepinkofag" Miller

I do not personally believe in circle jerks. Why would anyone participate
in such an innately silly activity? But I admit to have always *heard*
about them.

I'm 45 years old and have never met another man that I know of who has
ever done this. (I asked around yesterday. Got some weird looks. Made
some new friends.)

Isn't this just cow tipping for homosexuals?

Don "Not that there's anything wrong with that" Whittington

--
"Aside from its unscientificaliness, it has destroyed my faith
in my fellow man. (My fellow women are still faithable.)"
--Timothy A. McDaniel on the state of the poll

Kerro

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Don Whittington wrote:
>
> In article <7vbbfq$3id$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Nathan F. Miller
> <Nat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > My fifty-something uncle from rural North-West Pennsylvania swears
> > that when he was a youth, there were "always" circle-jerks in the
> > weight room of the local YMCA; that "everyone" knew about it (I wonder
> > if "everyone" really means just the menfolk); that nobody thought there
> > was anything "gay" about it. I have heard similar stories from other
> > older guys, one of them saying he was peer-pressured to join in on the
> > grounds that the other guys would say he was "sissy" in he didn't.(!)
> >
> > Nathan "and anyone who objects is obviously a commiepinkofag" Miller
>
> I do not personally believe in circle jerks. Why would anyone participate
> in such an innately silly activity? But I admit to have always *heard*
> about them.

[...]

There was a rock band called the Circle Jerks. You'd think *they* at least
would have done it. After all, they'd look pretty stupid if an interviewer
asked them and they had to shamefacedly admit that they'd never done a 'Jerk.

That would be like...I dunno, Sonic Youth being middle-aged or something...

--
Kerro <or the Doobie Brothers not being related to each other>
http://home.mira.net/~kerro/

Lee Mellon

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Kerro <ke...@mira.net> proclaimed:

>
>There was a rock band called the Circle Jerks. You'd think *they* at least
>would have done it. After all, they'd look pretty stupid if an interviewer
>asked them and they had to shamefacedly admit that they'd never done a 'Jerk.
>

Back in the dark era known as the 70s, long before there was a band
called the Circle Jerks, I worked for the Circle K Corporation. We
employees very unkindly referred to the stores as "Circle Jerks".

Lee Mellon

cra...@my-deja.com

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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dun...@mindspring.com (Don Whittington) wrote:
> <Nat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My fifty-something uncle from rural North-West Pennsylvania swears
> > that when he was a youth, there were "always" circle-jerks in the
> > weight room of the local YMCA;
<>
> I'm 45 years old and have never met another man that I know of who has
> ever done this. (I asked around yesterday. Got some weird looks.
> Made some new friends.)
<>

Hey, don't knock it til you've tried it. The best part is when the
girls hold up score cards. I used to be able to come in first and third.

Now, life is just one cluster fuck after another.
--
Crash 'extra points for difficulty' Johnson


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Bill Schnakenberg

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Kerro wrote:
>
> [...]

>
> There was a rock band called the Circle Jerks. You'd think *they* at least
> would have done it. After all, they'd look pretty stupid if an interviewer
> asked them and they had to shamefacedly admit that they'd never done a 'Jerk.
>

What makes you think that the name of any rock group has anything to do
with the characteristics or habits of the group at all. Most of the names
they picked just sounded "kewl" or had some shock value.
What about the 'B-52's', 'Phish', 'A Thousand and one Maniacs' (not even a
hundred in that group!)?
I am not a rock aficionado in the sense that I buy any of those albums but
I do occasionally see the group names in writing or hear the group name
said on the radio or TV. It was probably a year before I made the
connection with the group 'INXS' and "In Excess", as pronounced on the
radio. I saw tons of albums on the rack with that name on them but thought
it was pronounced 'inks' and I wondered why I had never heard of them.

>
> --
> Kerro <or the Doobie Brothers not being related to each other>
> http://home.mira.net/~kerro/

--
Bill -
PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235
--------------------------------------------------------------
The USS Salem, CA-139. The World's only preserved Heavy Cruiser,
Quincy, MASS. http://www.frontiernet.net/~willshak/salem/salem.html
--------------------------------------------------------------
Remove OutSpammedDot from my e-mail address when replying directly.
Any e-mail sent from @Hotmail.com is deleted without being read.

RM Mentock

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
>
> Kerro wrote:


> > There was a rock band called the Circle Jerks. You'd think *they* at least
> > would have done it. After all, they'd look pretty stupid if an interviewer
> > asked them and they had to shamefacedly admit that they'd never done a 'Jerk.
> >
>
> What makes you think that the name of any rock group has anything to do
> with the characteristics or habits of the group at all. Most of the names
> they picked just sounded "kewl" or had some shock value.
> What about the 'B-52's',

The B-52s wore 'B-52' hairdos.

'Phish', 'A Thousand and one Maniacs' (not even a
> hundred in that group!)?
> I am not a rock aficionado in the sense that I buy any of those albums but
> I do occasionally see the group names in writing or hear the group name
> said on the radio or TV. It was probably a year before I made the
> connection with the group 'INXS' and "In Excess", as pronounced on the
> radio. I saw tons of albums on the rack with that name on them but thought
> it was pronounced 'inks' and I wondered why I had never heard of them.

I understand now.

--
RM Mentock

The war on ignorance begins with me
http://sentient.home.mindspring.com/dan/

bs

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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re: circle jerks -- real or folklore

I think the, er, classic "circle jerk" would be one performed by
pubescent boys, although I never came across one in my circle
of friends...

"Amarcord" (1974), the ostensibly semi-autobiographical film
co-written and directed by Federico Fellini, portrays one.
As I remember, the setting was a parked 1920s sedan with
squeaky seat springs, and the common inspiration of the boys
was the town beauty, Gradisca.

That's all I've got. Gave up on AltaVista after getting too many
hits referencing Ron Jeremy.

---
Bob Stahl

John Lupton

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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In article <s1jta3...@corp.supernews.com>, "bs" <urbob...@sirius.com>
wrote:

>re: circle jerks -- real or folklore
>
>I think the, er, classic "circle jerk" would be one performed by
>pubescent boys, although I never came

..so to speak...<g>

>across one in my circle
>of friends...

There was said to be a "game" related to circle jerks that was actually a
practical joke to pull on an unsuspecting victim, usually the guy judged to be
the biggest dweeb of the group. It was called "Green Tree", everyone but the
dweeb was in on the joke, of course. "Rules" were, you put up a buck apiece
(the "Green") to the kitty, sit in a circle with the lights off, and first one
to, umm...finish...got to shout "Green tree!!" and collect the kitty. Needless
to say, the lights would come on and the dweeb discovered he was the only one
participating.

This may be apocryphal, I never heard of it actually taking place, let alone
be present myself...

John "but I live in a wooded area" Lupton

**********************************************
John Lupton, Network Services Manager
School of Arts & Sciences Computing
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia PA
**********************************************
jlu...@sas.upenn.edu

brian sefton

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Only one problem;

they werent in a circle!

As I recall the scene takes place after church, so perhapd it is better
classified as post-mass-mass-masturbation.

bs wrote:

> re: circle jerks -- real or folklore
>
> I think the, er, classic "circle jerk" would be one performed by

> pubescent boys, although I never came across one in my circle
> of friends...
>

Gregory Nelson

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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In article <s1jta3...@corp.supernews.com>,

bs <urbob...@sirius.com> wrote:
>re: circle jerks -- real or folklore
>
>That's all I've got. Gave up on AltaVista after getting too many
>hits referencing Ron Jeremy.
>
>---


Hey - just in time for Halloween!

One of my friends swears that Ron Jeremy's career is proof positive that
it *is* possible to sell your soul to the devil.

Greg Nelson
nel...@winternet.com

Chris Keating

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Bill Schnakenberg wrote:

> Kerro wrote:
> >
> [SNIP]


>
> What makes you think that the name of any rock group has anything to do
> with the characteristics or habits of the group at all. Most of the names
> they picked just sounded "kewl" or had some shock value.

> What about the 'B-52's', 'Phish', 'A Thousand and one Maniacs' (not even a
> hundred in that group!)?

> [SNIP]

> --

> Bill -
> PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235
>

Bill:

The name of the 1964 horror film was "Two Thousand Maniacs!" [sic] See
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0058694. The name of the band was Ten Thousand Maniacs.
The band took the name from the movie, but (so I've heard) got the title wrong. By
the way, they're still touring without Natalie Merchant.

-Chris "In my Tribe" Keating


Bill Schnakenberg

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Chris Keating wrote:
>
> Bill:
>
> The name of the 1964 horror film was "Two Thousand Maniacs!" [sic] See
> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0058694. The name of the band was Ten Thousand Maniacs.
> The band took the name from the movie, but (so I've heard) got the title wrong. By
> the way, they're still touring without Natalie Merchant.

See how much I know about rock groups? Couldn't even get the count right.

>
> -Chris "In my Tribe" Keating

--

Bill -
PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235

Bill Schnakenberg

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
>
> Chris Keating wrote:
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > The name of the 1964 horror film was "Two Thousand Maniacs!" [sic] See
> > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0058694. The name of the band was Ten Thousand Maniacs.
> > The band took the name from the movie, but (so I've heard) got the title wrong. By
> > the way, they're still touring without Natalie Merchant.
>
> See how much I know about rock groups? Couldn't even get the count right.
>

Chris, Natalie is a guest on the Dave Letterman Show on CBS tonight (Fri)
at 11:30 (right now)

Kerro

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
to
Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
>
> Kerro wrote:
> >
> > [...]

> >
> > There was a rock band called the Circle Jerks. You'd think *they* at least
> > would have done it. After all, they'd look pretty stupid if an interviewer
> > asked them and they had to shamefacedly admit that they'd never done a 'Jerk.
> >
>
> What makes you think that the name of any rock group has anything to do
> with the characteristics or habits of the group at all. Most of the names
> they picked just sounded "kewl" or had some shock value.

<Lord, I'm trying to resist the temptation...>

> What about the 'B-52's', 'Phish', 'A Thousand and one Maniacs' (not even a
> hundred in that group!)?

In the 70s there was an Aussie punk band called "The Psychosurgeons". All
members of the band, including their roadies, were qualified neuro surgeons
and had performed numerous operations, both successful and otherwise, on
various unsuspecting (and unwilling) fans of the band. That's how they
got their name. Prior to that they had been called "The New Originals".



> I am not a rock aficionado in the sense that I buy any of those albums

But you're a big fan of that whole genre in general. If you're ever in
Kansas City and want to hear some really good music, there's a resident
band at the Ramada Inn, calling themselves "Four Jacks and a Jill"... [1]

but
> I do occasionally see the group names in writing or hear the group name
> said on the radio or TV. It was probably a year before I made the
> connection with the group 'INXS' and "In Excess", as pronounced on the
> radio. I saw tons of albums on the rack with that name on them but thought
> it was pronounced 'inks' and I wondered why I had never heard of them.

Didn't their lead singer die in some kind of Circle Jerk-related incident?

[1] Well, of course it was a Spinal Tap reference....

--
Kerro.
http://home.mira.net/~kerro/

Dan Drake

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:16:56, th...@space.for.rent (John Lupton) wrote:

>...
> There was said to be a "game" related to circle jerks that was actually a
> practical joke to pull on an unsuspecting victim, usually the guy judged to be

> the biggest dweeb of the group. It was called "Green Tree",...

Also known as Splooey. For some reason.

In the version I heard ca 1960 in a frat-less school, it was a
standard fraternity joke played on all the innocent young pledges as a
group.

--
d...@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com


Robert Alston

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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Don Whittington <dun...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:duncow-2910...@user-33qsd3d.dialup.mindspring.com...

> In article <7vbbfq$3id$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Nathan F. Miller
> <Nat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > My fifty-something uncle from rural North-West Pennsylvania
swears
> > that when he was a youth, there were "always" circle-jerks in the
> > weight room of the local YMCA; that "everyone" knew about it (I
wonder
> > if "everyone" really means just the menfolk); that nobody thought
there
> > was anything "gay" about it. I have heard similar stories from
other
> > older guys, one of them saying he was peer-pressured to join in on
the
> > grounds that the other guys would say he was "sissy" in he
didn't.(!)
> >
> > Nathan "and anyone who objects is obviously a commiepinkofag"
Miller
>
> I do not personally believe in circle jerks. Why would anyone
participate
> in such an innately silly activity? But I admit to have always
*heard*
> about them.

Disbelieve all you want. Your in the wrong tho.

>
> I'm 45 years old and have never met another man that I know of who
has
> ever done this. (I asked around yesterday. Got some weird looks.
Made
> some new friends.)

Well you can still say you have never MET another man that has
participated.

>
> Isn't this just cow tipping for homosexuals?

Uh no. I may be a wierd pervert according to most people but I am
heterosexual.

Robert "Why do I have to be the one to answer these sort of questions"
Alston

Dan

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
to
On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:16:56 GMT, th...@space.for.rent (John Lupton)
wrote:

>
>There was said to be a "game" related to circle jerks that was actually a
>practical joke to pull on an unsuspecting victim, usually the guy judged to be

>the biggest dweeb of the group..... the lights would come on and the dweeb

>discovered he was the only one
>participating.
>
>This may be apocryphal, I never heard of it actually taking place, let alone
>be present myself...
>

I can attest to the fact that it has actually happened at least
once, at the University of North Carolina, in ...hmmm...about 1978,
to the dorm's perennial favorite victim, Bruce K

And that's not the worst of it.

Dan
.

Lars Eighner

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
to

In our last episode
<1YfR77gdNJ3y-p...@dnai-207-181-236-96.cust.dnai.com>,
the lovely and talented d...@dandrake.com (Dan Drake)
broadcast on alt.folklore.urban:

|On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:16:56, th...@space.for.rent (John Lupton) wrote:
|
|>...

|> There was said to be a "game" related to circle jerks that was actually a
|> practical joke to pull on an unsuspecting victim, usually the guy judged to be

|> the biggest dweeb of the group. It was called "Green Tree",...
|
|Also known as Splooey. For some reason.
|
|In the version I heard ca 1960 in a frat-less school, it was a
|standard fraternity joke played on all the innocent young pledges as a
|group.

Thread intersection strikes again. I happened to witness something
like the real thing -- not the prank -- once (not counting, of
course, organized activities of adult gay men). It happened in
connection with boys' nude swimming at Sidney Lanier Junior High
School in Houston. There was only one pool. Boys swam on alternate
days. And it so happened that the girls had the pool the hour before,
on days that my swimming class had the pool. Needlesstosay,
great care was taken that the door to boys' lockerroom was
locked when girls had the pool, and that the door to the girls'
lockerroom was locked when the boys had the pool. Boys
swam nude and there was a difference of opinion among the boys
as to whether the girls wore suits or not. I don't believe any
of us ever learned for sure.

The way from the boys lockerroom was through the shower -- as
we were all supposed to shower before going to the pool. Through
the shower there was a little cubical room -- maybe about 9'x9'--
which had high threshhold and I thought was supposed to have
some antifungal solution about ankle-deep, but the solution was
never there that I know of. There wasn't a door between the
cubical and the shower -- just a step over the threshhold. But
there was a door between the cubical and the pool, and that was
the one that was locked when the girls had the pool.

Now for reasons never clear to me, although I suspect it had
something to do with segregation and that the details were
kept from the public to avoid further incidents, a man who
had been trying to enroll his daughter at O. Henry Elementary
School (also in Houston) went onto the grounds of O. Henry
with a briefcase full of dynamite which he used to blow himself,
the principal of the school, and perhaps others to bits.
For fear of copycats -- or perhaps from fear that it had just
been the opening shot from some communist integrationist
organizations -- the coaches at Lanier patrolled the grounds
when the classes changed and then locked up the outside doors.
No telling what would have happened if there had been a fire.

Anyway, for that reason, the swim coach was not immediately
available to unlock the door to the pool, so the boys got
naked, went through the shower into the little cubical, and
found they could not go further because the door to the pool
was locked -- a thing that had never happened before. They
couldn't go through the door, and they couldn't go back because
boys kept coming from the shower. Pretty soon the whole class
of 40-50 naked wet boys was pressed into that approx. 9'x9'
cubical.

Well, I have recreated this scene in pornography, and I don't
see the need to repeat myself here. Needlesstosay, "circle
jerk" hardly begins to describe the ensuing events. However,
in a Lord-of-the-Flies sort of way, it was pretty scary.
It was ... well, The Lord of Flies thing. I mean, I couldn't
tell that anyone abstained -- not the Holy Rollers, not the
homophobic jocks, no one. The veneer of something-or-other
is very thin indeed.


--
Lars Eighner 700 Hearn #101 Austin TX 78703 eig...@io.com
(512) 474-1920 (FAX answers 6th ring) http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/
Please visit my web bookstore: http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/bookstore/
Of course, any post about maggots is fine by me. --Judy Johnson

Medieval Knievel

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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Gregory Nelson <nel...@winternet.com> wrote in message

> One of my friends swears that Ron Jeremy's career is proof positive that
> it *is* possible to sell your soul to the devil.

Makes a kind of sense, considering that Ron Jeremy is perhaps one of the
least sexually appealing men in the world, based on my unscientific
interviews of people who have seen his *ahem* work.

--
Medieval Knievel--the game that moves as you play!
EAC Coordinator of Youth Corruption Activities
ICQ# 26667824 aa# 1554 ULC Ordained Minister
Remove the obvious spam block from the address to reply


Olivers

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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Lars Eighner wrote:
>
>...(snipped but preserved for reread, a great Eighnerian narrative)...

Up here on the Balcones Escarpment, we didn't have no truck with that
kind of foolishness back in junior high, (a) having no school swimming
pools, and (b) being partial, societally, to watermelons and among our
rural cousins to stump broke heifers, but would believe same about
Houstonians, where sexual and exconomic adventurism were rampant. The
summer camps along the Guadelupe were always led into gross indecencies
by Houston boys, Houston counselors (and even occasionally by Houstoon
girls, some of whom was growed young and skipped pubescence on the way
to outright harlotry).
--
Olivers/SWRSO
"When you waltz across Texas,
the beer tastes better at closing time."


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Dan Hartung

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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Hearsay suggests that dun...@mindspring.com (Don Whittington) stated
the following:

>I do not personally believe in circle jerks. Why would anyone participate
>in such an innately silly activity? But I admit to have always *heard*
>about them.
>
>I'm 45 years old and have never met another man that I know of who has
>ever done this. (I asked around yesterday. Got some weird looks. Made
>some new friends.)
>
>Isn't this just cow tipping for homosexuals?

What makes you assume it has anything to do with homosexuality?


--
Dan Hartung | dhartung (at) wwa (dot) com
Lake Effect Weblog | http://www.wwa.com/~dhartung/weblog/
Fresh links, engaging asides, insightful editorials updated daily

Don Whittington

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
to
In article <VG4bOBrYLqjjgX...@4ax.com>, Dan Hartung
<dhar...@nospam.wwa.com> wrote:


> >Isn't this just cow tipping for homosexuals?
>
> What makes you assume it has anything to do with homosexuality?
>
>

Poor phrasing on my part. Since circle jerks are supposed to be hetero
activities, it seemed something gays might repeat to highlight the double
standards of your average gay-bashing Archie Bunkerite.

That was before I learned some folks actually do it.

Don "Some of my best friends are circle jerks" Whittington

Lars Eighner

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
to

In our last episode
<duncow-3010...@user-33qsc32.dialup.mindspring.com>,
the lovely and talented dun...@mindspring.com (Don Whittington)
broadcast on alt.folklore.urban:

|In article <VG4bOBrYLqjjgX...@4ax.com>, Dan Hartung
|<dhar...@nospam.wwa.com> wrote:
|
|
|> >Isn't this just cow tipping for homosexuals?
|>
|> What makes you assume it has anything to do with homosexuality?
|>
|>
|
|Poor phrasing on my part. Since circle jerks are supposed to be hetero
|activities, it seemed something gays might repeat to highlight the double
|standards of your average gay-bashing Archie Bunkerite.

Well actually a number of gay clubs devoted to this sort of activity
sprang up in the 1980s for obvious reasons -- generally named
<yourcityhere> Jacks. You might find some web sites if you could
figure out how to screen out the porn businesses from the search.
In some larger cities they occasionally organized rave-like
events, generally for some kind of charitable fund-raising.
A few commercial clubs existed, but generally they found it
more profitable not to enforce restrictions on the kinds of
behavior permitted, whereas the Jacks clubs were very strict.
There were a few attempts to organize heterosexual clubs of
the same kind (call "Jacks and Jills") but generally the number
of stag males tended to be a destablizing factor. Either
events would have to be admission by couples only, which caused
resentment among the stag males or the stag males would be so
numerous that they would intimidate the females.


However, these adult, organized events are not really what
is meant by "circle jerk." I'm not sure it is quite correct
to call real circle jerks either heterosexual or homosexual.
They are basically just another kind of pissing contest.

--
Lars Eighner 700 Hearn #101 Austin TX 78703 eig...@io.com
(512) 474-1920 (FAX answers 6th ring) http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/
Please visit my web bookstore: http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/bookstore/

Don't care if it's true - just love it. --Eric Hocking

Lon Stowell

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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Dan <das...@nr.infi.net> wrote:
>
>And that's not the worst of it.

Well, don't leave us hanging in masturbatus interruptus.....

Phil Edwards

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Oct 31, 1999, 2:00:00 AM10/31/99
to
On Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:07:05 -0500, "Robert Alston" <rom...@tcon.net>
wrote:

>> Isn't this just cow tipping for homosexuals?
>

>Uh no. I may be a wierd pervert according to most people but I am
>heterosexual.
>
>Robert "Why do I have to be the one to answer these sort of questions"
>Alston

Because you can answer them in the affirmative.

Phil "fancy a quick round of I'm The Most Boring Because?" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"I'll shave the hamster and get back to you."
- Andrea Jones offers some Real Research

K. D.

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Oct 31, 1999, 2:00:00 AM10/31/99
to

Sioux wrote in message <381CD91A...@chariot.net.au>...
>
>... and in my younger days it was called Soggy Biscuit.. where a biscuit
was placed
>on the ground and the last one to finish had to eat the biscuit


GAWD!!!!!!

This is terrible!

How did the biscuit get soggy anyway?

Sioux

unread,
Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to

Dan Drake wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:16:56, th...@space.for.rent (John Lupton) wrote:
>
> >...
> > There was said to be a "game" related to circle jerks that was actually a
> > practical joke to pull on an unsuspecting victim, usually the guy judged to be
> > the biggest dweeb of the group. It was called "Green Tree",...
>
> Also known as Splooey. For some reason.
>

... and in my younger days it was called Soggy Biscuit.. where a biscuit was placed
on the ground and the last one to finish had to eat the biscuit...


Sioux

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to

Kerro wrote:

>
> > I do occasionally see the group names in writing or hear the group name
> > said on the radio or TV. It was probably a year before I made the
> > connection with the group 'INXS' and "In Excess", as pronounced on the
> > radio. I saw tons of albums on the rack with that name on them but thought
> > it was pronounced 'inks' and I wondered why I had never heard of them.
>
> Didn't their lead singer die in some kind of Circle Jerk-related incident?

no.. he allegedly hung himself... ot the other story is that it was some kind of
sexual thing gone wrong....


Rambler III

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
K. D. wrote:
>
> Sioux wrote in message <381CD91A...@chariot.net.au>...
> >
> >... and in my younger days it was called Soggy Biscuit.. where a biscuit
> was placed
> >on the ground and the last one to finish had to eat the biscuit
>
> GAWD!!!!!!
>
> This is terrible!
>
> How did the biscuit get soggy anyway?

Do your duty!

--
RAMBLER III

"You must not spend your whole life looking for other people's
systematic mistakes. You must make some of your own."
Peter Van de Kamp, Astronomer

K. D.

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to

Rambler III wrote in message <381D83...@worldnet.att.net>...
>K. D. wrote:

>> How did the biscuit get soggy anyway?
>
>Do your duty!

Isn't asking enough?

Don't I get extra credit for starting the thread, which was boys in swimming
pool, which branched off into Circle Jerk fact or fancy? (emphasis on
fancy)

But, OK -- I didn't check the usual UL sites -- I entered (keeping on topic,
well, a tangential topic anyway) the words "soggy biscuit circle jerk", and
here is the top match:

http://www.ee.pdx.edu/~thunder5/Humor/wanking.html

Which starts off with:

[begin quote]

2 billion men beat off every day. There's a good possibility that you're one
of them. Hi.

We all wank, sonny wiggles his willy, daddy plays with the meat in an
orderly and rational way, and granddad's choad also delivers on a regular
basis. 92% of all men masturbate, and the 8% that don't are filthy
degenerates suffering from a host of physical and mental diseases.

Infants wank, boys play with their willy after they've played "doctor" in
the bushes, but it's normally not until they get 13 to 15 years and get the
improved equipment that wanking becomes this wonderful and joyous habit
that'll stay with them for the rest of their lives.

[end quote]

A quick perusal of this site indicates that it is not of the same ilk as the
recent methane gas and cake postings. So, check it out, everyone.


David Martin

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
> > Chris Keating wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill:
> > >
> > > The name of the 1964 horror film was "Two Thousand Maniacs!" [sic] See
> > > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0058694. The name of the band was Ten Thousand Maniacs.
> > > The band took the name from the movie, but (so I've heard) got the title wrong. By
> > > the way, they're still touring without Natalie Merchant.

> Chris, Natalie is a guest on the Dave Letterman Show on CBS tonight (Fri)


> at 11:30 (right now)

Yeabut, she wasn't with the Maniacs. As Chris said, they've
gone their separate ways.

David "and it was taped Thursday" Martin

Rambler III

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to

Here's another spammer, Charley. Got your badge handy?

FYI, the only interest I have in crap is when I miss my daily dump.

Only juveniles would think crap written about crap is funny or
entertianing.

Lizz Holmans

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
In article <381DAE...@worldnet.att.net>, Rambler III <Walker.HG-
M...@worldnet.att.net> writes
(more uselessness from Rambler III)

'Ingelse, Daniel Lodewijk. Died June, 1995, age 77, and was the first
Dutchman to make a century against Denmark in 1955.'

Obituaries, _Wisden Cricketer's Almanack_, 1996.

Lizz 'Ask not for who the doe snots--it could take a century to explain'
Holmans

--
Lizz Holmans

Rambler III

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
Lizz Holmans wrote:

> 'Ingelse, Daniel Lodewijk. Died June, 1995, age 77, and was the first
> Dutchman to make a century against Denmark in 1955.'
>
> Obituaries, _Wisden Cricketer's Almanack_, 1996.
>
> Lizz 'Ask not for who the doe snots--it could take a century to explain'
> Holmans

Yours is the most intelligent posting to be be made thus far today,
especially that bon mot betweem your names.
> --
> Lizz Holmans

McCaffertA

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
In article <7vfve3$hup$1...@triton.dnai.com>, lsto...@triton.dnai.com (Lon
Stowell) writes:

Well. at least he didn't say "mid-stroke."

Bill Schnakenberg

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Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
David Martin wrote:
>
> Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
> > > Chris Keating wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill:
> > > >
> > > > The name of the 1964 horror film was "Two Thousand Maniacs!" [sic] See
> > > > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0058694. The name of the band was Ten Thousand Maniacs.
> > > > The band took the name from the movie, but (so I've heard) got the title wrong. By
> > > > the way, they're still touring without Natalie Merchant.
>
> > Chris, Natalie is a guest on the Dave Letterman Show on CBS tonight (Fri)
> > at 11:30 (right now)
>
> Yeabut, she wasn't with the Maniacs.

I didn't say the 10k Maniacs were guests on the DL show, I said Natalie was
a guest on the show.
I posted that message as soon as I heard Dave announcing the guest list for
the show.

> As Chris said, they've gone their separate ways.

Right! And the fact that Dave announced that *Natalie Merchant* would be a
guest and she appeared without them kinda substantiates that, right?

>
> David "and it was taped Thursday" Martin

I wasn't invited to the taping. I had to wait until the tape was shown on
Friday night.

R H Draney

unread,
Nov 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/1/99
to
Bill Schnakenberg wrote:

> David Martin wrote:
> >
> > Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
> > > Chris, Natalie is a guest on the Dave Letterman Show on CBS tonight (Fri)
> > > at 11:30 (right now)
> >
> > Yeabut, she wasn't with the Maniacs.
>
> I didn't say the 10k Maniacs were guests on the DL show, I said Natalie was
> a guest on the show.
> I posted that message as soon as I heard Dave announcing the guest list for
> the show.

You might want to wait a bit before doing that in the future...suppose you had told the froup
that *Harmony Korine* was on the show?!....r
--
"God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know
the difference...oh, and a pony!"


Bill Schnakenberg

unread,
Nov 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/2/99
to
R H Draney wrote:
>
> Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
[...]

> > I posted that message as soon as I heard Dave announcing the guest list for
> > the show.
>
> You might want to wait a bit before doing that in the future...suppose you had told the froup
> that *Harmony Korine* was on the show?!....r

OK, I'll bite...!

Meek606

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Nov 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/2/99
to
I would like to add a variant to this legend. In highschool, at drunken
parties, I heard some male peers refer to a "turkey baste". This was supposedly
an activity in which a bunch of guys stand in a circle around a passed out,
drunken female, and jerk off onto her. Horrifying!
-M

Sioux

unread,
Nov 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/2/99
to

"K. D." wrote:

>
> >on the ground and the last one to finish had to eat the biscuit
>
> GAWD!!!!!!
>
> This is terrible!
>

> How did the biscuit get soggy anyway?

havent you been following the (obvious, i thort) idea in this rather long
thread ?? or do i have to explain how guys stand around in a circle and wank
?

Sioux


R H Draney

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Nov 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/2/99
to
Bill Schnakenberg wrote:

> R H Draney wrote:
> > You might want to wait a bit before doing that in the future...suppose you had told the froup
> > that *Harmony Korine* was on the show?!....r
>
> OK, I'll bite...!

Full explanation: Mr Korine was supposed to be on the show to promote his current film...the
opening credits listed his name, and each time Dave announced the guests on the show (after the
opening monologue, after the halfway station break) his name was in the list....

The other guests ran longer than expected, and of course they couldn't just bump Natalie Merchant
or the World's Largest Pumpkin, so Harmony Korine did not appear...he may have been asked to come
back another night, but from Dave's remarks at the close of the show, he wasn't too happy about
getting bumped by an enormous gourd....

R H "come to think of, I wouldn't enjoy that either" Draney

WrldBeatnk

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
> One of my friends swears that Ron Jeremy's career is proof positive that it
*is* possible to sell your soul to the devil.

Makes a kind of sense, considering that Ron Jeremy is perhaps one of the least
sexually appealing men in the world, based on my unscientific interviews of
people who have seen his *ahem* work.<<


Ron, at least since he's gotten fat, IS unappealing visually. BUT he is also
really funny and guess what then #1 desirable trait in thousands of polls of
women about "what do you want in a man" is???

A SENSE OF HUMOR!!!!!!!

Of course a male member the size of a child's arm never hurts!

Dutch Courage

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
wrldb...@aol.com (WrldBeatnk) writes:

>Of course a male member the size of a child's arm never hurts!

Many women would disagree with you

Dutch "ouch, babe!" Courage


"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn
human actions, but to understand them" -Spinoza

"The ridiculing and scorn, that's just gravy."-Courage

Jim Skillman

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
Dutch Courage wrote:
>
> wrldb...@aol.com (WrldBeatnk) writes:
>
> >Of course a male member the size of a child's arm never hurts!
>
> Many women would disagree with you
>
> Dutch "ouch, babe!" Courage

I thought the "size doesn't matter" UL had been debunked long ago.

--jim

Bill Schnakenberg

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to

OK. I do remember Dave going on about that while Natalie was sitting in the
chair after her song. I wondered why she was sitting there since he hardly
said or asked anything of her and she only laughed or grunted about what he
was going on about. Since it was near the end of the show, I suppose they
had her sit there to kill a little time because the person walked out. I
assume both Natalie and Dave hadn't prepared any dialogue beforehand
because she wasn't scheduled to sit there at all. I didn't recognize or
remember the name 'Harmony Korine'. I just looked it up. Some sort of new
avant-garde independent movie director. I suppose I didn't miss much.


> R H "come to think of, I wouldn't enjoy that either" Draney

--

Charles A. Lieberman

unread,
Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
03 Nov 1999 02:52:01 GMT
WrldBeatnk

> Of course a male member the size of a child's arm never hurts!

Not that I'd know, but I suspect that, in fact, it would.

Charles "why am I responding to this?" Lieberman
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "I guess you can't guarantee supernatural
Brooklyn, New York, USA | phenomena." --Rian, on AFU
http://members.tripod.com/~calieber/home.html

Chris W.

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to

R H Draney wrote:

he wasn't too happy about
> getting bumped by an enormous gourd....
>

> R H "come to think of, I wouldn't enjoy that either" Draney

IHNTA. IJWTS 'getting bumped by an enormous gourd'.

Chris "squashing any zucchini fantasies" Webb

Joe Boswell

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
In article <382032F9...@bellsouth.net>, Jim Skillman
<jims...@bellsouth.net> writes

>I thought the "size doesn't matter" UL had been debunked long ago.

That's right.

I thought size did not matter, but then my wallpaper fell down.
--
Joe 'not hung up on being original' Boswell * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
[spam block - take the micky from the address or it won't work]

Andrea Jones

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to

WrldBeatnk wrote in message
<19991102215201...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...

>> One of my friends swears that Ron Jeremy's career is proof positive that
it
>*is* possible to sell your soul to the devil.
>
>Makes a kind of sense, considering that Ron Jeremy is perhaps one of the
least
>sexually appealing men in the world, based on my unscientific interviews of
>people who have seen his *ahem* work.<<
>
>
>Ron, at least since he's gotten fat, IS unappealing visually. BUT he is
also
>really funny and guess what then #1 desirable trait in thousands of polls
of
>women about "what do you want in a man" is???
>
>A SENSE OF HUMOR!!!!!!!
>
Those polls lie. Women don't care if you're the funniest bastard on your
particular side of the Mississippi River, if you're fat and ugly your
chances of scoring are significantly lower.

>Of course a male member the size of a child's arm never hurts!

On the contrary, it almost always hurts.

Andrea "Shallow but honest" Jones


Mark D. Lew

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
In article <O$ic7vlJ$GA.323@cpmsnbbsa02>, "Andrea Jones"
<aegi...@email.msn.com> wrote:

> Those polls lie. Women don't care if you're the funniest bastard on your
> particular side of the Mississippi River, if you're fat and ugly your
> chances of scoring are significantly lower.

The polls don't like, the women do. The pollster asks, "what trait do you
find most attractive in a man?", and a bunch of women say "sense of humor".
The press release then says, "XX% of women say sense of humor is most
desirable trait." This is true; the women really did say that. But then
the press release gets quoted improperly so that it comes out as a "damned
lie", and the statistics get blamed.

The stupid thing about polls is that they like to ask what people think is
true, rather than find out what's true. Ask a sample of people whether
television ads affect who they vote for and practically everyone will say
"no". So why do politicians keep running the ads?

Mark D "my sister is a statistician" Lew


Lon Stowell

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Nov 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/3/99
to
In article <O$ic7vlJ$GA.323@cpmsnbbsa02>,
Andrea Jones <aegi...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>Those polls lie. Women don't care if you're the funniest bastard on your
>particular side of the Mississippi River, if you're fat and ugly your
>chances of scoring are significantly lower.

Unless you are an ugly little dweeb with big ears and a
bank account in the billions of US dollars range.

Lon "thinking of a sex change and becoming a slut" Stowell

Mike Holmans

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
In article <382096B6...@usa.net>, Chris W.
<chrisda...@usa.net> decided to impart

An' wassa marrow wit'em?

Mike "Cor! Get her!" Holmans


Bill Kinkaid

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
On Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:31:21 +1000,Kerro <ke...@mira.net> just had to tell
us that:

>Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
>>
>> What makes you think that the name of any rock group has anything to do
>> with the characteristics or habits of the group at all. Most of the names
>> they picked just sounded "kewl" or had some shock value.
>
>> What about the 'B-52's', 'Phish', 'A Thousand and one Maniacs' (not even a
>> hundred in that group!)?
>
>In the 70s there was an Aussie punk band called "The Psychosurgeons". All
>members of the band, including their roadies, were qualified neuro surgeons
>and had performed numerous operations, both successful and otherwise, on
>various unsuspecting (and unwilling) fans of the band. That's how they
>got their name. Prior to that they had been called "The New Originals".
>

I don't think The Police were coppers, were they?

>But you're a big fan of that whole genre in general. If you're ever in
>Kansas City and want to hear some really good music, there's a resident
>band at the Ramada Inn, calling themselves "Four Jacks and a Jill"... [1]
>
>[1] Well, of course it was a Spinal Tap reference....
>

Wasn't there a real group named Four Jacks and a Jill in the 60s? IIRC,
they were the ones who did a song called "Master Jack" (no relation to
Billy Joel's "Captain Jack", which brings us back to the original thread)


Bill in Vancouver

too old to be walking around with no shoes,
and too young to be walking around with no teeth

John Francis

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
In article <7vr3qh$c8o$1...@triton.dnai.com>,

Lon Stowell <lsto...@dnai.com> wrote:
>
> Lon "thinking of a sex change and becoming a slut" Stowell

You'll always be a slut to me, honey.

Jim Everman

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
Mark D. Lew wrote:
>
> The stupid thing about polls is that they like to ask what people think is
> true, rather than find out what's true.

I had an economics prof in college (GMI, Flint MI circa 1957) tell
the class that Ford, Chrysler & GM conducted a survey of their
customers to find out what sort of car they wanted. Ford "got the
short straw" and had to build it. Ford called it the Edsel. I have
no idea if the prof knew what he was talking about or not.

Years later, I read in one of the car magazines that American Motors
did a survey where they asked, "What sort of car do you think your
neighbor would buy?" They built it and called it the Matador (which
was an ok seller for them).

--
Jim Everman mailto:eve...@Anet-STL.com
http://www.Anet-STL.com/~everman/

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by
stupidity.

Charles A. Lieberman

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
3 Nov 1999 20:58:57 -0800
Lon Stowell

> Unless you are an ugly little dweeb with big ears and a
> bank account in the billions of US dollars range.

Do you know something about Ross Perot that I don't?

Charles "Do I need to gloss this, seeing as how TWIAVBP?" Lieberman

Charles A. Lieberman

unread,
Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:47:56 -0600
Jim Everman

> I read in one of the car magazines that American Motors
> did a survey where they asked, "What sort of car do you think your
> neighbor would buy?"

Why is this a better question than "What sort of car would you buy?"

Medieval Knievel

unread,
Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to

Bill Kinkaid <kin...@spam.still.sucks.bc.sympatico.ca> wrote in message

> Wasn't there a real group named Four Jacks and a Jill in the 60s? IIRC,
> they were the ones who did a song called "Master Jack" (no relation to
> Billy Joel's "Captain Jack", which brings us back to the original thread)

Don't forget the Who's "Happy Jack," which may bring us even closer to the
original thread, coming from the same period as their song "Pictures of
Lily."
--
Medieval Knievel--the game that moves as you play!
EAC Coordinator of Youth Corruption Activities
ICQ# 26667824 aa# 1554 ULC Ordained Minister
Remove the obvious spam block from the address to reply


Phil Edwards

unread,
Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
to
On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:23:18 -0500, yvro...@voicenet.com (Charles A.
Lieberman) wrote:

>Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:47:56 -0600
>Jim Everman
>> I read in one of the car magazines that American Motors
>> did a survey where they asked, "What sort of car do you think your
>> neighbor would buy?"
>
>Why is this a better question than "What sort of car would you buy?"

More realistic: not distorted by wishful thinking or trying to please.

Phil "quite clever, really" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"I'll shave the hamster and get back to you."
- Andrea Jones offers some Real Research

Mike Holmans

unread,
Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
to
In article <s24ogl...@corp.supernews.com>, Medieval Knievel
<smell_...@hotmail.com> decided to impart

>
>
>
>
>Bill Kinkaid <kin...@spam.still.sucks.bc.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>
>> Wasn't there a real group named Four Jacks and a Jill in the 60s? IIRC,
>> they were the ones who did a song called "Master Jack" (no relation to
>> Billy Joel's "Captain Jack", which brings us back to the original thread)
>
>Don't forget the Who's "Happy Jack," which may bring us even closer to the
>original thread, coming from the same period as their song "Pictures of
>Lily."

Yes, we know. We know all about such songs, from Cyndi Lauper's "She
Bop" through King Crimson's "Solitary Vice" to Donny Osmond's "I'm
Having A Wank", and we don't want to kNO CARRIER##+++

Jim Everman

unread,
Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
to
Phil Edwards wrote:
>
> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:23:18 -0500, yvro...@voicenet.com (Charles A.
> Lieberman) wrote:
>
> >Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:47:56 -0600
> >Jim Everman
> >> I read in one of the car magazines that American Motors
> >> did a survey where they asked, "What sort of car do you think your
> >> neighbor would buy?"
> >
> >Why is this a better question than "What sort of car would you buy?"
>
> More realistic: not distorted by wishful thinking or trying to please.
>
> Phil "quite clever, really" Edwards

Exactly. If I remember correctly, the magazine commented that when
asked
what they would buy, most people would stress reliability, good mileage,
conservative style, etc. The neighbor, being somewhat more crude, and
certainly less social conscious, didn't care about those things but
wanted lots of horsepower, intimidating style, and so forth.

In both cases, the point was that people, in general, don't always
answer surveys (polls) honestly even though they do not intend to
decieve.

Donna Richoux

unread,
Nov 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/5/99
to
Phil Edwards <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:23:18 -0500, yvro...@voicenet.com (Charles A.
> Lieberman) wrote:
>
> >Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:47:56 -0600
> >Jim Everman
> >> I read in one of the car magazines that American Motors
> >> did a survey where they asked, "What sort of car do you think your
> >> neighbor would buy?"
> >
> >Why is this a better question than "What sort of car would you buy?"
>
> More realistic: not distorted by wishful thinking or trying to please.

"Do you think your neighbors would participate in curbside recycling?"
is a better predictor of real participation rates than "Do you think you
would participate in curbside recycling?" I learned that from an article
by the guy in the Southwest, I forget his name, who for years has
analyzed what people actually throw away in their garbage.

I was working in a community group that worked to bring about recycling
and that was asked to write up a survey. When I pointed out the above
fact could help determine the truth, one of my colleagues asked why I
would deliberately want a lower number to make us look bad. Truth,
shmuth.

Best wishes --- Donna Richoux

Simon Slavin

unread,
Nov 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/7/99
to
In article <s24ogl...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Medieval Knievel" <smell_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Bill Kinkaid <kin...@spam.still.sucks.bc.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>
> > Wasn't there a real group named Four Jacks and a Jill in the 60s? IIRC,
> > they were the ones who did a song called "Master Jack" (no relation to
> > Billy Joel's "Captain Jack", which brings us back to the original thread)
>
> Don't forget the Who's "Happy Jack," which may bring us even closer to the
> original thread, coming from the same period as their song "Pictures of
> Lily."

Look what's back: it's the 'songs about mastrubation' thread.

Simon.
--
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | John Peel:
No junk email please. | [My daughter] has modelled herself on you.
| Courtney Love:
| Oh, I'm so sorry.

Henrik Schmidt

unread,
Nov 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/8/99